The Traitors winner Leanne Quigley on giving birth three and a half months early (1/2)

0:00Yeah. Tom loves watching I'm a Celeap with Me because I'm always a bit like, I think he loves it. We're going to go with that, he loves it. Will you just shut up and watch it? I don't need to know how they do this. I know, Sophie's like that. I actually interrupt everything. Like, actually, what you've seen there isn't like that. Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of Happy Mum, Happy Baby, the podcast. Today's guest was a corporal in the army. However, at the start of last year, she won the traitors. She's also the mum of two children, blah, blah, blah. I jest. Today's guest is Leanne Quigley.

0:43Hello. Hi, thank you for having me. How old are the boys now? They are going to be three. Very, very soon. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Very soon. That is quite a big age, three. Yeah, I get emotional thinking about it because I think, how are we here? How are you? How have you gone from being so tiny and fragile to running around my house, trashing everything I own, becoming a three-year-old, you know? I heard you talking about the boys on another podcast. And I love the fact that you referenced the fact that they are as feral as mine, I would say, the fact that they fight and bicker. Oh, gosh, the fighting and the bickering.

1:21Oh, it's still happening. Really? Yeah, on steroids now, I would say. No. Oh, yeah. But I think because they're really finding themselves, they're getting their personality, we don't have a man of the house. So I think they're fighting to be man of the house. Do you? Yeah, absolutely. That alpha energy. They're like, no, it's me. Yeah, I have two little alphas on my hands, for sure. But it's been quite a whirlwind year because obviously the Traitors were such a massive... Well, it's such a massive thing. And I think to do that show is one thing, but then you're waiting months for it to suddenly be out there.

1:56So it must have been that sort of anticipation of soon people are going to see this show. What's the reaction going to be? And then the actual aftermath of that and then winning it. Yeah. I mean, I don't even, I still don't have any words for it. Like it's still bizarre to me. And it was quite scary actually because you're opening up your life and your children to, you know, God knows how many people. And suddenly your little family unit that was just your own, you're very protective of. protective of is suddenly out there for everybody yeah you know to to watch and speak on and george and yeah it was really strange but it's been incredible has it yeah it really has and i think speaking a lot about my children and their whole journey the comeback that i've got off that has really shown that it's been totally worth it really yeah the fact that i do you know what i find really bizarre is i've had people reach out and actually thank me for speaking about the children and I find that so strange why are people thanking me for speaking about the kids and raising awareness that to me shows maybe there's not enough of it absolutely I mean I completely agree um and we're gonna talk about the kids and you know their births and everything um in a bit but first of all I want to talk about you and your childhood yeah where did you grow up and what was your childhood like because you joined the army at 16 that's such a young age I know I joined the I never really knew what I wanted to do or wanted to be.

3:23The one thing I was for sure of, I've always wanted to be a mum. Right. I never knew how that was going to happen, when it was going to happen. But from wanting to be a mum to, I'll go to the army until I'm ready. I did have some in-swell. They would give me some good mum skills. I know, it's a bit of a bizarre choice, isn't it? So my brother, my older brother was in the army. He was in the Grenadier Guard. How much older is he? He is six years older than me. so he'd be quite into his career then by the time oh yeah yeah he was fully in it i think when i actually broke the news to my mom that i wanted to join the army he was in afghanistan and this must have been oh it was when it was when it was rife so it's you know it was the hard days it was like when it was really tough out there and my mom wasn't in the best mental state i can you only imagine yeah your little boy you know he's not a baby anymore but always be a little boy out in Afghanistan, terrified of the door being knocked.

4:17You know, you never know what news you're going to get. And then your daughter tells you she wants to join the army. Obviously, it was a hard no. Was there anyone else in the family that had gone down that route? No, no. It's really interesting. Did you live close to anyone? Had there been any sort of recruitment that you and your brother had seen? No, no, actually. I don't know what made him decide to join the army. I've actually never asked him this is probably something I should ask him but I was young when he joined obviously he was in quite a few years and when I got to the age where I decided I wanted to join I think what it was my mum was so super proud of him like so how like my son's in the army he's a soldier and I think I wanted that I wanted my mum to be as proud as me so I'm just gonna copy everything that he does which wasn't really copying obviously he was on the front line I was never on the front line but I just think seeing how proud of him she was, every time he would come home on leave and she would drop him off, obviously she'd be super emotional, but I'd just seen how proud she was and I wanted that for myself.

5:19Well, it must have been a massive part of your childhood as well, though, because I know maybe as a young kid you wouldn't necessarily know what was going on to the extent that he would have been going through, but you would have been aware of this energy in the house as well, of your mum being fearful. That's a really interesting and different thing to be living through. Yeah, of course. and I think my mum would always be open and honest about how difficult she found it. I can't even imagine. I don't think I would let my little boys join the army. I don't know if I could deal with that fear and pain.

5:47But, yeah, she found it really, really difficult. What about for you? I think I was young. I didn't quite understand it. I never really understood the army in the sense that I do now. Yeah. You'd hope so because now you've got a long career. Yeah, I mean, hopefully I know a little bit more. I'm trying to go slightly but yeah I didn't really I mean I knew it was she was fearful but I guess I didn't have the same fears because I just wasn't you know in the know yeah and I guess actually the realities of something like that with a young brain who's a teenage brain that's off doing other things exactly that's not reality exactly and it's not something my mum's going to sit me down and talk about how you know your brother's yeah and his friends out on tour and you know it's some really like deep stuff so I was just my brother's away yeah you know that's all I really knew of it so you always knew that you wanted to be a mum yes but you went down the army route and down the army route and did you went whilst you were you know whilst you were like heavily in that career did you ever sort of think about motherhood more and how that would look and when that might be something you looked into more I think so because at that point I knew I was gay so I always knew that I'd have to go through IVF.

7:05And I always had a plan. I always wanted to be a young mum. So I had a plan at 25. I want to be a mum. I want to be married. That didn't happen. But yeah, I think I was always thinking, oh, when am I gonna pencil in some babies in this really busy career I've got? You know, I'm up and I'm moving every couple of years. But I did. How did you and Sophie move? We actually met on Instagram, but she was in the army as well. She was based in Staffordshire. I I was based up north in Cattrick. We went on a date. It was just meant to be dinner and I didn't leave for three days. No. She must have been thinking, can you go home?

7:42I've got to go to work. Because she was texting eight. She's going, blimey. Yeah. I didn't ask either. I just stayed. It's actually quite psychotic. But we knew. We knew pretty soon on. Did you? Yeah, of course. Did you talk about kids early on? I think it's a lesbian thing. Right. Yeah, I think. I think you speak to anybody who's gay. It's a lesbian thing. They meet a woman and next thing you know, they're moved in and they're engaged after a week. It's definitely, that's the stigma and it's true and I stand by it. But yeah, we spoke pretty early on. I can't really quite remember. But actually, we got together shortly before lockdown.

8:19So we met in 2019. So when the lockdown came in, we moved in together because we wouldn't see each other. So we managed to get a house, a military house. We were renting a military house because we were both posted in the same area at this point, which was super lucky. We would never have seen each other. And then, yeah, we became mums to a dog first. Did you? How did that go? Did you see qualities in each other that you liked? Absolutely. Taking it in terms of the night shift. I was like, this is going to be so easy. It wasn't. So did you two kind of, was the journey into motherhood for you two something?

8:55Because obviously you said that you had thought about it a lot. You said that you'd given a lot of thought to as to how. when that became a conversation between the two of you, because obviously Sophie would have had her own ideas of what that would look like, what was the start of that conversation and how did you end up deciding how you were going to go forward? I think it's difficult to know when the right time is. I remember us having a conversation about this and I think I was maybe 26. Yeah. No, 26, just turning 27. And I was just like, IVF isn't promised to anyone. You know, motherhood is not promised, so why don't we get the ball rolling?

9:32And it will happen when it happens, you know. We may have to go, we may have to have a few tries at it. We just didn't know it's the unknown, and the unknown is scary, right? I don't like the unknown. So I was like, let's just get the ball rolling. And we were lucky enough to get pregnant first time. Well, getting that ball rolling, though, because what you did is you used Sophie's eggs. Yes. But you carried. Yeah. Like, even landing on that decision, did you always know that you wanted to carry? Super simple. like really yeah that was we knew that without even discussing it Sophie is very she's she's a tomboy she loves her football she loves her beer you can't imagine Sophie with with a pregnancy bomb you really really can't I've always had a joke and called her my lesbian boyfriend which now she gets called in work Leanne's lesbian boyfriend but she doesn't want to carry a baby she wants to be a mum but she doesn't want to carry so it was just kind of like a thing like We was always going to carry her eggs because she wanted to be involved as much as possible.

10:29And I think absolutely fair enough. Everybody does it their own way. Every way is the right way. Yeah. It's all about down to you as a couple and what works. Everyone's decision is the right decision. And the right decision for us was to choose Sophie's eggs and for me to carry. Because I've always wanted to carry. I wanted to experience it. I've always wanted those feelings. Always been super maternal. So, yeah. And that's what we decided. And then going down that route, so if you had 20 eggs, which is amazing, and 10 you donated. Yeah, she doesn't let me live it down either. She says, do you know what I went through?

11:02So I said, sorry. Also, do you know how much of a giving person I am? Yeah, like I am a saint on earth. But to be honest, it was a lot. Like she had to have injections daily, loads of scans. Obviously, everything has to be timed perfectly to a T. So, yeah, we decided to donate 10 because we had a discussion and we wouldn't be able to have babies without a donation of a sperm donor. So it was only, you know, it wasn't really even a conversation. Yeah, absolutely. Donate 10 to women who can't produce their own, which I would love to know. We have spoke about it. I would love to know. Where they are.

11:41Yeah, if it worked for the mums. Would they get notified at all? I'm pretty sure. It's a bit of a blur. I'm sure she signed something. I don't know if they're allowed until they're 18. Right. I think we are allowed to... That's crazy, isn't it? Not knowing if that turned into a human at any point. Yeah. Are they allowed to come and find us? Yeah. Because obviously they're not her children, they're not her babies, but they were her eggs. So it would be nice to know. I just hope it has worked for somebody and somebody had the same outcome, but a little bit better than what we did, you know? Yeah.

12:13It's such an amazing thing. Science is incredible. Yes. Incredible. Yeah. I was thinking about this the other day. I was looking at the twins and I was like, you were made in a lab. Isn't that bonkers? What? It just doesn't make sense to me. I'd love to delve into it more because I'm really fascinated by it. But there are so many different people who can't have babies or can't produce eggs and, you know, through different treatments like cancer and things like that. So to be able to give that to someone, to help them, And actually, obviously, that gets a lot more meaningful for Sophie, obviously, later on for you.

12:51You know, I know so many people who have, you know, gone down that route. So it's incredible that people do things like donate their eggs or their sperm. Yeah. So when you had these 10 that were yours, you banked those. Yeah, I banked those. Claimed all them. But it's the thing, right? With the IVF journey, there's so many different moments within it that you kind of need to kind of take a breath and see whether you're moving forward. like what's the next step and there's so many hurdles you have to go through so many there's so much anxiety that comes with ivf and i was totally naive to it i think i've been naive to everything to ivf to motherhood um to birth to to nicku but everything but yeah it is it's scary you never know when it could go wrong because suddenly we had 10x but actually um they didn't all fertilize so you know the numbers were coming down and down then we got to um where they mix the egg and the sperm to try and create blastocysts and we actually only got two out of them so suddenly out of 20 eggs that sophie we don't know about the other 10 i'd love to find out one day i will we only had two and it was a really scary thought that if this if we have one in it doesn't work we've only got one chance then before we've got to go through the whole emotional trauma again because it is am i right in thinking that they were classed as low grade they were low grade and that's what scares me as well i was like they were close to going in the bin yeah well my kids running around my house were close to going in the bin what do you mean it's insane it's really insane so in my mind I had a chat with self and both of our mums actually and I said do you think we can try and put them both in because I don't want to go through one potentially not working then having to go through another because I think I would just struggle with that mentally I do hold on to things emotionally I'm just that kind of person um and actually not allowed to have two embryos put in because it i don't think it's the healthier so i think they allow you if you've had you know a couple of failed attempts so we actually had to go through a few medical boards really yeah to get it approved i think it was joe joyner who was on um uh gosh it would have been a few years ago now so when she did it which would have been um a while ago her um doctor said that actually putting in two at that point was better because it's almost like the body kind of reacts and it's like they enjoy company oh really yeah so she ended up putting two in and ended up with twins but because it kind of that's what that was her advice kind of like a i'm not going to tell you what to do but they do like company yeah um so yeah it's really interesting how the advice changes all the time yeah it's crazy I think because I'm quite a petite girl as well I don't know whether they know if my body would cope with it obviously it's a foreign object to me as well there wasn't even my eggs I haven't had anything and suddenly embryos so I don't know we never I actually never expected twins even though I had two embryos put in talk me through it so that initial bit of having those those embryos um implanted like what was even that aspect of it like for me it was really nice and peaceful actually yeah because I think so I'm pretty sure so I had the embryos put in a little bit uncomfortable you have to have a really full bladder and obviously the girl really so it goes to the right place yes wasn't the most comfortable I could not wait to get out of there but when I came out I just felt I thought I was going to be super nervous but I just felt at the minute I'm pregnant without you know no one can tell me I'm not because I could be I could be carrying babies and it was kind of a nice feeling um for a short while before I started getting the impulsive thoughts and feelings to do tests because obviously I just wanted it so bad do you remember how quickly that came up yeah I actually do and I was thinking about this earlier so you're not supposed to test until day 10 right 10 days of waiting is horrendous it's just not a nice feeling every day and the days are so long because it's all you can think about so I actually oh this is really bad of me I tested on day four secretly quickly didn't even tell Soph really yeah didn't even tell her because it was just killing me inside so I was actually at my mum's Soph was at work so I took some time off just so I could relax not get stressed at work so I was at my mum's and I went out my sister shopping on day three um bought loads of tests we were so excited um and then I woke up super early on day four and it was negative and I was heartbroken really stupid of me to do that I would advise anybody do not do that because it doesn't always show up that quick.

17:26So I didn't tell Sophie. It's so hard, though. It's so hard. And I think when you can... So often at that stage, I know that I can feel things like that. You can feel things happening. I felt things happening. Yeah, it is that you do just want to test. It's almost that, not even that reassurance. It's kind of like... Yeah, I can feel these things. Surely it's not psychological. I don't think it's something to feel guilty over to do that test early. Like, I know there's kind of the... Yeah. But yeah. I just needed to know. I felt weird things, like symptoms that weren't even pregnancy symptoms.

17:59Like my eyes were hurting and weird things in my body was hurting. And I thought, they're not even pregnancy symptoms. Am I going mad? But did you Google every single one? Every single one and there wasn't even pregnancy symptoms, which is wild. But I just felt things so strong. And obviously because I had twins in me without knowing, it was doing all sorts to my body. So the next day, that night actually, when I had the negative test, Sophie came to my mum and spent the weekend together. and um I was like can we do a test tomorrow morning she was like no let's tell her that you've done a test no okay I didn't right I didn't I thought it would upset her because it was a thing we'd done together but it was just eating me up so bad inside I just had to and so it got to the next morning yeah I woke up at half four in the morning I was like Sophie can I go now can I do it and she was like okay just do it I kind of like was really down about it because I was like I know I'm not pregnant now from yesterday so I did it in the bathroom I did the test show negative went into so freely upset it's negative so I sat down on the bed and then she's getting off it's like half four in the morning quarter five at this point super early um so dark outside so she gets the test she puts a torch on it and there was a faint line I thought it was negative so I'm like on the border of tears and she's like Leanne Leanne you're pregnant I was like what I was I literally just burst into tears, ran downstairs to my mum.

19:21I woke the whole house up. It's such an odd feeling. I know. Isn't it? That kind of, that moment where those lines are there. Yeah. There's nothing like it. No. It's just a feeling I could never, I hope I get that feeling again one day because it was incredible, especially because I thought it was negative. I didn't give it enough time. I was walking from the bathroom. I was like, Sophie, it's negative. I'm sorry. And she puts the torch on it and there's a positive line there on day five. And we were just beside herself. I couldn't get back to sleep. Went downstairs. My mum was downstairs doing the washing like a mum does at that time of the morning because my mum just doesn't sleep.

19:54And I was like, pregnant. How does she react? Oh, she, it was just incredible. Like, it was just such a nice feeling. I went and woke both my sisters up who were like, we're having a baby. My mum's very much like, my mum's very, my mum's had a few miscarriages. So she was obviously really wary, wanted me to be, you know, not get too excited, you know, really wanted me to just, well, I was too far gone. It's also that thing, isn't it? Yeah. I would imagine that kind of wanting to protect you, so not wanting to get too excited for you in a way of almost piling pressure on you in a weird way that even though that wouldn't be the case, you can't control what happens in pregnancies, you know, but it is that kind of wanting to protect you from how happy she is.

20:42Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Exactly. And I think she just wanted to wrap me up in bubble wrap and just like protect me from any bad in the world. But it was just the best day. And then after that, what was it like? Did you have to return to the clinic at day 10? So we was allowed to do. Yes, it was a blood test, actually. So that's all it was. It was to check. Is it HCG? And I was thinking, I said to Sophie, I was feeling all these things. I knew something was going on in my body. And for it to be so strong. What if they both worked? What if we have twins? So when we had the blood test, the number was super high.

21:20And that was like our official, like, yep, you're definitely pregnant. You're definitely have a baby. HCG levels are super high. Everything's looking good. And then I had to scan the week after. It was just the best time, like every day. What was that like in that scan? You know, to find out there's not one, there's two. Oh, that scan actually was before the actual scan. So we went for a private one. I am so impatient you already know I'm so impatient and I said Sophie please can we just go you know when you just know you I need to know if it's okay I need to see them with my own eyes yeah and we went there and Sophie's seen there was two before I did because the monitor was turned so I've seen her slump down in her chair and I was like oh no what's going on and then she was like congratulations there's two babies there I was in hysterics we were both in tears we had to pause the scan because my belly was just going up and down with tears it was just the best feeling in the whole wide world like the best feeling I was like how is this happening to us how are we having two babies it was just I just felt like the luckiest person on earth and how did you feel during your pregnancy the first couple of weeks incredible yeah I'd be waking up every morning still doing tests every day just because seeing it was just, you know, how it feels the most incredible feeling, isn't it?

22:40It's funny, isn't it? I'm the same. Like, I'd keep taking tests. Every day. And they're not cheap, are they? No, they're not. Absolutely not. And I think I was so paranoid. I think I was taking the tests to check the strength of the line. Yeah. To see if it was getting darker every day, which it was. And I would just get, I'd be so excited to wake up every morning just to do a test to see that I've still got babies in me. It's such a weird feeling, isn't it? So the first few weeks were really just incredible. Checking the size of my non-existent bump every day. I'm sure it's there. The bloat was there and I was like, look, Sophie, I'm huge.

23:16The bigger the better for me. I just wanted to be huge. I wanted a huge bump. Oh, and then the sickness started. At what point did this kick in? Maybe five and a half weeks. Oh, that's early. Oh, it was hyperemesis and I would not wish it upon my worst enemy. Horrendous. How was this for you? How did it manifest? Oh, gosh. I mean, I actually ended up joining some support groups because it's mentally difficult. I mean, it could never be compared with morning sickness. It can't. You know, it's just the most horrendous thing. There was a lot of women that I spoke to who sadly had to go through with abortions because it really affected them that bad.

23:59They couldn't eat, drink for weeks. They couldn't leave the house. I didn't go to work for three months. Didn't you? Yeah, the sickness was so bad. I was in hospital every other day on a drip. It's crazy what it can do to you. The things we do for motherhood. Yeah. I know. It is. I don't think people understand how intense that is. It's incredibly severe. It really causes a lot of mental health problems. People can't go on with their pregnancies. And that's how severe it is. And I remember lying there one day. My mum was incredibly worried. I stayed at my mum's. And I know she would be watching me upset because I couldn't eat.

24:40I couldn't look after myself. I couldn't get out of bed. And it's just so mentally draining. And you do get those thoughts where you think, I don't know if I can carry on. Because you also don't know when it's going to end. No, you don't. Because for some people it might be 12, 14 weeks. Yes. In others it doesn't. Till the very end. I've heard that for some women, they literally give birth and it lifts straight away. I know. I've heard the same thing. I got put on some medication which actually really turned everything around for me. So I think it lasted until maybe 17 weeks for me. 17 weeks. But I managed to go back to work for a little while before I ended up going into labour.

25:21But when it stopped, wow, I just felt like a new woman. Did you feel like you were able to enjoy your pregnancy for a little while? Yeah, I had a good few weeks where I was able to enjoy it because that's all I ever wanted. I wanted to feel pregnant. I wanted to walk around with a bump and rub my belly and just feel like I'm about to be a mum. That's all I ever wanted. So I'm glad I at least had a couple of weeks of that feeling before. And then, yeah, things shifted. A few things shifted a little, yeah.

25:59Talk to me about that time. Yeah. Because, see, you went into labour very early. Yeah, super early. Talk to me about the days leading up to it. Was there anything that happened that made you think, oh, something's going on or not? I think throughout the pregnancy, carrying twins, you know, you feel all sorts of, like... Well, you just don't know what's normal. You don't. First-time mum as well. like do you have like and you've got different things that i always had different things that like you used to feel like they were pinging and yeah um you know different twinges yeah so you never is it just like a ligament ligament is that the right word is it just things growing or you know stretching like you just never know what's normal and even the morning of when i was actually in labor i still didn't know really yeah because i just thought is it just um what is it braxton hits i didn't know what that was i hadn't experienced so what was it were you experiencing like tightening was it more like a period pain very maybe not even period pain just like the most mild tightening yeah which I wasn't even concerned of yeah I went I woke up one morning and we were staying at my mum's for the weekend and I went to I went to the bathroom and I had the tiniest speck and I mean like a pencil dot of blood on my tissue don't even know how I noticed it but I did and I said to my mum I was like I've had a tiny dot and we were both just like nothing to worry about.

27:17When you Google it and you're just like oh it's fine. Yeah. It was a Sunday as well so I called my midwife she was like look I'm not worried but if you want to pop into the hospital you know by all means. Sophie we were staying at my mum's this weekend because it was her birthday the next day. Right. So it was my mum's celebration birthday weekend. Yeah. And then the tightening started to get a bit stronger and my mum put her hand on the bottom of my tummy. My mum's had a hundred children. How many children has she? I would trust your mom it's basically 100 and she was like Leanne go to hospital I was like what do you mean mum your hands you know how you do I was like mum your hands on my belly you can't tell me I'm in labour I was in labour yeah I think I was in labour all night actually so when you got to hospital at what point did you realise that that was the case I was in the waiting area for ages and suddenly I was texting my friend and she said to me time them you know I'd not researched this yet I hadn't even packed my hospital bag You get so far away.

28:16Yeah, I didn't even know. So I started timing them. They were exactly every three or four minutes. Lasted about 40 seconds. I've still got it on my phone. I just don't ever want to delete the notes. So I was like, is this quite often? And she was like, yeah. I mean, pretty often. So I was in the waiting area. Me and Sophie must have been in the waiting area for maybe like 40 minutes. Because they're thinking, you know, you're only 26 weeks. You're not going to be in labour yet. You're fine. and next thing you know I'm like oh okay I need to see somebody so they got me on a bed took a look and they were like oh okay you are four centimeters next thing you know did you feel that shift then oh I just felt it now I just got goosebumps through my body because suddenly even though I was like oh my god am I in labor am I in labor everyone's panicking it wasn't until I heard the words you in labor everything shifted my body changed the pain started coming then and it's like my body needed to hear the words before things started moving even faster you know so yeah how many weeks were you at this point 26 one but actually so when i went for my dating scan um i was actually i think they'd grew a little bigger so my my date changed twice so if they never changed i would have been in the 25 weeks mark right super early um but at this point i was 26 weeks 26 in a day i think um and it just all started coming thick and fast so what happened after that point when they understand that you are absolutely in labor yeah what is the next because obviously you are so early in pregnancy still i think there was quite a big panic i think in the hospital because they just wasn't expecting it also it's a sunday yeah you know that there's not many people on shift yeah um first things first i had a steroid injection because they had to do everything they could to protect the baby's lungs.

30:08Thank God I did. I think that's what potentially saved their life. I managed to get two injections in before. Did they try and slow it down? Yeah. But I guess there's no way of reversing it at that point. At that point, I was too far gone. And I always wonder, for a while I blamed myself, what could I have done differently? But I think sometimes these things just happen. Maybe if I went into hospital the day before, could they have kept me in? You know, could they have kept them a little bit longer and saved the suffering? But I'll just never know. and I think the unknown is just, it eats you up, doesn't it?

30:39It's unhelpful. Yeah, it's so unhelpful. Why can't we just get rid of it? But yeah, things started moving super quick. They tried to slow it down as much as possible. I ended up having an epidural twice because the first one didn't work. But that did slow it down quite a lot. I got through the night. Could you rest? Could you kind of ease into it when you had the epidural? Could you kind of be like, I'm going to, you know, because usually when you're in labour you're like I'm going to conserve my energy because actually if you're at that point and there's so many different worries that come along with it yeah there's so many I think I'm there I'm in labour for a few seconds I'll forget how early I am and how dangerous it is and then suddenly I'm riddled with anxiety and then I'm in tears again and then my mum's in the corner my mum can't hide her emotions you know you take one look at my mum and you know that she's about to burst into tears but she tried her hardest to keep it together but in a weird way I think my midwife really turned it around for us we had um a new midwife come in you know it shift changed shortly after my epidural and she was just such a ball of energy and she tried her best to just keep us smiling it got to midnight and we started singing happy birthday to my mom because it was her birthday and I can't believe still that they were born on her birthday so it was just there was just so many crazy things going on yeah yeah and at what point did things shift and you could actually start pushing well I feel at one point I was saying to the midwife that oh this was before the epidural I was like my body's pushing itself you know she was saying to me you're not ready yet don't push and I'm like my body's pushing I'm trying not to push but the pain and the pressure also your body sometimes just does it it just it was just doing it and I was like I'm not meaning to it's just it's my whole body is forcing down and I think the epidural then really did slow it down because it stopped obviously I couldn't feel the contractions thank god because they were every maybe 40 seconds at this point and I couldn't bear it any longer I think I'd gone a good eight hours of active labor before I decided I needed an epidural and I think that's really what slowed it down I managed to get another injection of steroids which you know any injection is super helpful but they have to have a good time between them and my waters never popped didn't they?

32:58never, never popped so did they come out in the sack? they came out in the sack I know, so strange just these tiny little balls were they in the same sack? two separate I mean just having one of that is very rare yeah they say it's rare it's meant to be very very magical It's meant to mean great things for the babies. Yes, there's a word, right? Is it unicorn something? I can't remember. I'm going to have to research it. Pardon? But it's meant to be... Mermaid? Mermaid. Yes, I've heard that. Sorry, that was Alex, the producer, chipping in with her knowledge. Thank you. But yeah, it's meant to be super rare, and I thought, of course it's happened to me.

33:37But not once, but twice. Twice. Sophie nearly fainted when she's seen them coming out. I was like, Sophie, not now. I have the picture. I have the pictures of them in the sacks. Are they side by side in their sacks? Yeah, like literally on top of each other. Like just crazy. Because I was like, no matter what, I want pictures. I want memories. One thing about me, I just love memories. I'll take pictures of everything all the time. So I'm glad that I have, like I've got all the pictures. When they pop the sack, at that point, that's when Sophie nearly fainted. I was like, pull yourself together.

34:11Not now. This is not about you. but in a way it was really it was really special because obviously I didn't get to hear the first cry, I didn't get the first cuddle, I couldn't touch them because they were working on them for a good while and that must have been scary, especially with the epidural you wouldn't have been able to move you can't move in a way to be there with them or you can't because the midwives are there doing their job and you have to respect the fact that they are the ones that they need in that moment And you don't realise how many people are going to be in the room for an emergency C-section.

34:45There were so many people. Is that what ended up happening in an emergency C-section? Yeah. So I think what it was, one of the boys went breech and one of them was climbing on top of the other. Like now? Like now. Which, God, we were talking about this the other day and I definitely think it's Harley. He was the second twin. Right. They say your second child is crazy. Does that still count for twins? It must do because he's crazy. So yeah, one of them was climbing on top of the other. They were super low down. Right. So my scar is literally hip to hip. Oh, really? It's so long. I would say maybe my scar's maybe that long.

35:16Wow. I don't know how long a normal C-section scar is supposed to be, but a lot of my friends is half the size. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But they were super low. The boys were very ready to come out. Right. But it was very quick. I think things changed really quickly. Did they just have to get them out as quickly as possible? I think something was going on. Right. I haven't yet had my notes. I have requested them. But I think, I don't know whether there was maybe heart rate dropping, but suddenly I was giving birth naturally. That was the plan. And next thing you know, I'm signing my life away to go into theatre.

35:47It's really interesting that you want your notes. Do you feel like there are just certain parts of it that you need clarity on still now? Yeah, 100%. Yeah. And I know my placenta even went off for testing and I still don't know the results for that. Yeah. Yeah, so I really want to delve into it and I just want to read everything that happened. Is that so that you can understand why you went into labour so early? I think so, yeah. I think so they don't think there's a reason and it's just spontaneous but I have read that if you go into early labour once you are more likely to so I really want to understand the reasons why is there anything I could have done to prevent it is there anything I can do to prevent it in the future I've just got so many unanswered questions it's not even understanding why it happened at that point it's the future thing because then subsequent pregnancies so that you can rest a little bit and not feel so I don't want to go through that again I don't want to see my little baby go through that again and also if I was to have to go through that again with a premature baby, I've got two other children at home now.

36:44It's totally different. I was very lucky to only be able to focus on the twins whilst they were in intensive care whereas I know there's many mums out there who have children at home as well so they've got to split their time. I can't imagine how incredibly hard that is. You know what I mean? Did you have everything explained to you before the twins arrived in terms of the fact that they would have to be whisked away, that they would have to go to NICU? It was all very, I think, rushed because I'd never understood NICU. I never even knew it was a world that existed. Why would you if you knew? I think it may be something that should be made aware to pregnant women.

37:20Even a leaflet? I don't know because it probably would have made me a bit more aware of what to come. But I do remember somebody telling me I might not see them for a while. They might be taken away. But it was all very, I think, wrapped in cotton wool. I think maybe to protect my feelings which at that point probably needed to happen because I was a mess um but no I didn't fully understand it at all I had no idea what was to come so did they get broken out of their sack still in the room with you yes so you saw them before I got to see them so they actually brought them over I have photos of this as well I'll actually show you after um they were brought next to me so I can move my head but my even like even though you're numb from the waist down I felt like my whole body was just heavy yeah completely heavy it's such a strange feeling right so I got to see them super quick um I seen so Hudson was out first um they were working on him over here over here which felt like a lifetime and then they quickly showed him to me before they took him out and down to the NICU and then Harley came out and he was the poorest at the time super poorly took him a while to breathe I think um and that just felt like forever and ever and ever.

38:32My mum, bless her, was outside the room just not knowing what's going on. Did they explain to you what the babies would look like at that point? No. And I think it's so, I remember the feeling of, are they even mine? Really? They looked like babies. I have to show you these. They looked like tiny, tiny babies that are just not formed properly yet. Like their eyes were fused shut and there's a picture actually on one of them and you can clearly see that they're fused shut. They just obviously weren't ready to be born. So tiny. Their skin was just past transparency. Bright red. Looked really sore.

39:10If it was like a week before, their skin would have almost been see-through. Just so delicate. I remember my thumb was the size of one of the boys' foot. I know, you can imagine how tiny. And actually, I read something the other day. I still follow a charity. And you know the little elves that we do every day for the babies before Christmas? the size of their mouths are just slightly smaller than what the boys were when they were born. Oh my gosh. I know. Crazy, isn't it? But the weight of a bag of sugar. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So tiny. No, I can't even look at these elves the same. Really? Yeah, I read it the other night and I was like, gosh, yeah, the length of them.

39:49Just so super tiny. How do you feel looking back at photos of that time? Does it feel surreal to know that that was your experience? Yeah, I look all the time. Do you? All the time. I'm always scrolling to have a look and I just think, how? How did that happen? And then I look at them now and I think, you have no idea how much you've been through and how brave you are without even knowing. They're just innocent little children not having a clue what they went through. The poking, the prodding, the endless needles, endless medication. It's just, it still baffles me. It really does. What was it like in the delivery room when both of the boys had to be taken away and it was just you and Sophie?

40:33Horrendous. Horrendous. That feeling, I think, will never, ever, ever leave me. Because I never knew if I was going to see him again. And I didn't see them for a good 10 hours. And that day was just so long and so horrendous. I couldn't move. Suddenly, I had nothing inside me. But I still felt movements. yeah just the most empty feeling I could ever explain really hard and very silent I would imagine at a time when you would expect joy in a room full of people as well in a room full of people you never expect to feel so alone and there's so many horrible thoughts going through your head that you can't help and actually I didn't see them for a lot I'd seen them for maybe 20 minutes they got taken to a different city because they needed specialist care so I spent the first night away from them as well Gosh They couldn't discharge me I just obviously had major surgery Was Sophie able to go?

41:36She stayed with me because somebody had to drive me to Birmingham the next day so as soon as the ward round happened the next morning they got me to stand up got me dressed which was so difficult after a C-section wow horrendous and Sophie drove me Birmingham and then could they take you in there or were you just no you're discharged you have to recover at home or near where the kids are oh yeah I was discharged with the needles that was me taking care of myself but luckily the ward on in Birmingham they were taken to Birmingham Heartlands they would take care of me and I actually asked them to do my injections every night because I just couldn't bring myself to do it yeah just been through are these the blood thinners yeah the blood thinners oh my gosh did you have to do that No, I had to have blood thinners when I broke my ankle.

42:23Oh. No, because, weirdly. And that, I just felt for anyone that ever had to go through IVF or anything like that. Did you do it yourself? Yes. Oh, how? I had a broken ankle, but this injection was, it was awful. So when I finally saw a doctor and he was like, you can stop doing that, I was like, thank God. Thank God, yeah. I couldn't do it. I could not put it in my belly. Yeah. I was terrified. And then I thought, yeah, fair one, bless Sophie. She had to do that every day. She did go through it. I won't tell her that though. She was like, give over, just do it. She was like, just let me do it.

42:57I was like, so no, I can't. So luckily the hospital did do it for me. It's when you've got a bruised tummy then. It's all just like. So sore. Every like flinch hurts, every cough, every sneeze, everything hurts. So I was just like, no, I can't put myself through it. I need a medical professional in my life. Yeah. How was it when you eventually were reunited with them in Birmingham? again super weird because i spent the first the whole first 24 hours of them being born i saw them 20 minutes so when i seen them again you don't recognize them yeah you're not expecting to see them yet they're not fully formed obviously i had so much love and fear and just everything you can every emotion um it was it just was horrible horrible that walking in there actually the day i walked in um so if you come down with a chest infection no so i was on my own and there was a lot of rsb prior to us coming into the hospital sadly a lot of babies lost their lives to that so obviously they were incredibly strict on who could enter so it was just parents so i was on my own for a good seven days every day and and sophie bless her was just rocking in a corner and that's got to be really hard isn't it to kind of judge when you are able to come in to that environment knowing that all you want to do all your heart is telling you to do is be there but actually knowing with your head you cannot go in there yeah until your body is ready 100 um and it wasn't a nice greeting for her because actually when she was able to come back into the hospital the boys had a rough week they were intubated super poorly as you can imagine so tiny bleeds on the brain holes in the heart chronic lung disease you name it they had it and actually Harley who was the poorliest at the time he was having a really difficult night and I'd just left the hospital to grab some food because it was settled it was okay because the only time I would leave that place was to eat.

45:09Literally, that was it. So I just left to get some food. And I actually made friends with a really lovely lady in the room who had a premature baby as well. So we exchanged numbers. Whenever I wasn't there, she would keep me updated. And whenever she wasn't there, I'd keep her updated. And we would just check the monitors of the numbers. You know, heart rate and oxygen is all we would understand, really. So we'd just keep each other updated all the time. And I got a text from her saying, hi um i don't think harley's great his numbers are dropping so i said what are they dropping to and she said really really low so i rushed back in i was straight back in there didn't even finish eating and i said when i got there what did they get down to and she said down to the 30s from 100 where his oxygen should be down to 30 you know you're near death yeah yeah horrendous and then they put a monitor on him which would go off every time he stopped breathing and it was going off maybe every minute so I was just beside myself on my own um I only had another parent in the room there to comfort me and hours went by they decided to intubate him again um but it was late at night and they were struggling to do it right and they said to me Sophie was much better and then and they said do you want to bring her in and I thought shit they don't know if he's going to make it so her first experience of coming back after having a chest infection we thought Harley was going to die yeah like in front of our eyes and I made the mistake of not a mistake but I stood and watched them try and injubate him because they have a camera you know inside their bodies and they couldn't get it down I think he had a funny shape I don't know where they just couldn't get it in.

46:51And I still see it now. I've seen them trying to force it into this tiny little body. They did make me leave at that point because, yeah, I think it's just... Which is good in a way, but the guilt... You don't want to leave your baby. At a time where you feel like they need their mum. So, yeah, her first experience after coming back and seeing them, we thought we were going to lose them, which, thank God, we didn't. I mean that just must really highlight what it is to have such a premature baby in NICU. That time where, especially when you're living through it. Yeah. You know, I think if I think back to newborn days, it felt like they were so long, so long, right?

47:32Yeah. And that's a baby who's healthy and who's at home and just won't breastfeed. But to be in NICU and feel like those days must feel even longer than the long newborn baby stage on the outside. Yeah. and I mean that's why I felt like I had babies forever because I had over three months in hospital where they weren't even meant to be born yet so I had babies for all that time super long days exhausting heartbreaking and then I went into the newborn stage after over three months babies forever but how lucky like so lucky yeah but it must just be so surreal to look at that time yeah I just I still can't believe we went through it and I don't know how we got through it I remember people saying to me at the time I think you can't there's not a right thing to say at that point and I think my patience was so thin really so thin because nobody could say the right things because to me everything was I don't know I just couldn't accept any congratulations everyone was saying congratulations but it's not congratulations I don't know if my babies are going to die but what else are they to say?

48:37It's hard isn't it? But it's that difficult thing that you also don't want people not to acknowledge what you're going through. Exactly, so nobody could win. And I knew that, I knew that. I think there was never a right thing to say even though they were only saying what they could say. But you have this thing about wanting to fix it right as well, you don't need advice in that setting. No, no, definitely not and I would get told all the time, you're so brave to go through this and I'm like I don't want to be brave I want to break down but I can't and I think I just went into autopilot every day I learned really quickly how to be a medical mom I learned um the tubes the monitors I just I made it my mission to really learn everything so I knew what was going on at every point I think the control just took over me because I just wanted to be involved that much you don't feel like a mom in there so I wanted to feel like as much as a mum as I possibly could and I think just by doing medical things for them it was the only sense of motherhood that I had at that time yeah you know and did it feel different when Sophie was finally able to be with you yeah but I think I did get a bit too protective which is really it was hard for her which I can I can openly admit I did I think I did make it harder for her because I was like be careful be careful don't don't touch them for too long close the thing there's germs everywhere it sent me west yeah yeah yeah it sent me truly insane but like we were saying about that that time feeling like really really long a week even though you have a week on your own which in you know a week is not a long time in everyday speak but actually a week in there yeah like we were saying it feels like you've had months of living this 100 % so you know every little risk everything yeah like literally everything and it's so so true like the day a day feels like a week and so much happens you never know when they're going to take a turn it's just so unexpected in there like things happen all the time unexpectedly so I was just always on edge yeah even even about anybody going near them absolutely anybody it is crazy that we don't know enough about NICU 100 % and it's only when actually someone you know relies on it or you're going through it that suddenly your eyes are open to what these incredible people do in there.

50:56Completely. And then suddenly I had premature babies and then I'm meeting people. Oh, I was premature. Or Tyson Fury was born at a pound and he's the heavyweight champion of the world. What? Like that's, when I learnt that, I thought, oh my gosh. Yeah. Like, okay, anything's possible then. Like I need to trust the process, go with it, you know, trust the universe. Also being in NICU and meeting all of the staff who work there who do see it much more regularly than you would like to imagine that they see it knowing that they know all the different steps and was that reassuring to you were you allowed to feel reassured at any point having the medical professionals who aren't feeling overwhelmed by a situation completely definitely because sometimes I would think there was one time um I was holding one of the boys and suddenly he went gray the numbers were drop in the emergency alarm was going off I was beside myself I thought he's going again we're losing him again the most loveliest nurse she comes in she gets him so calmly so peacefully lifts his head up turns the oxygen up gets him going again and I'm like how have you just done that without there's no fear in you there's no panic there's nothing on your face you've just done that and I think that's what makes them so incredible because they're dealing with tiny little lives who are everything to their parents and they're just so incredible at it and they're so calm and I've met some incredible people like incredible people like I can't believe they do that job every day yeah what a rewarding job the most rewarding job I would love to do it I just don't think I'm emotionally stable enough for it right it is you know I imagine it's a really difficult job you know it's amazing when it goes right and you see that baby leaving with their parents but doesn't always go that no at what point did you feel like you could start relaxing did you allow yourself to know that they were going to be okay I don't think I felt that way until maybe a year ago really yeah when they came home they came home on home oxygen I was always terrified they were going to stop breathing I bought my own monitors that would sound an alarm in the house if they did stop breathing which happened a few times so thank god i did um i was just always terrified there was we always had hospital visits yeah um they kind of like switched so harley twin two was always the poorly one and then they kind of switched and then hudson was always the poorest one even still now um he is in and out of hospital especially in the winter because his lungs are just so weak a common cold can really knock him off his feet and he needs a few days break in hospital with an oxygen boost.

53:46Is that something that they will grow out of, if you like, as they get older, where their lungs continue to get stronger? I'm told so. I mean, I can definitely tell already. He's been put on a brown inhaler, actually, a month and a half ago, and I can already see the difference that's doing for him. We haven't been in hospital for six weeks, Dutchwood, which to me is incredible. That blows my mind that that's incredible for you. Incredible. last year um horrendous even when Sophie was going through chemo every chemo she would have I'd end up in hospital with Hudson like a few weeks a good week after her chemo it's kind of like a cycle yeah so I had Sophie at home finally just getting better after a round of chemo and then Hudson would fall ill I'd have to call an ambulance then I'm in hospital with him for a couple of days but yeah I mean I'm calling it the norm but it's not it's not normal to be on high alert all the time to be wondering when that next hospital visit is going to be looking at your child continuously going are you okay you know that yeah that's a lot to carry yeah I mean I still it's still now I'm still always as soon as I hear him crackling I'm like we've got a certain amount of days before he's in hospital because I'm just so used to it I know I know the routine I know when he starts with a crackle on his chest, we've probably got about eight days.

55:03So now, though, I guess looking back, are you now more like that nurse who was able to deal with the situation nice and calmly? Are you more like that? Are you kind of like, I know what we have to do? Yeah, I think so. I think it's happened that many times. It's kind of second nature. And I just do it and I do do it calmly. and actually I remember my friend saying to me actually how have you just done that and you were so calm but I don't react until after it's not until after where I start shaking and then I start getting teary like oh god again you get through it you get through it and then you're able to process it exactly yeah because I remember all the nurses would say to me remember the babies can feel your emotions so I was always like super aware that if I'm panicking around them I wouldn't want them to panic and I'm thinking they're only babies they don't understand but these babies can do way more than we think.

55:57Yeah. And they know more than we think. Absolutely. Absolutely.

56:04Okay, we're going to take a little pause here. In what should have been just one episode, I quickly realised whilst recording this that we couldn't just give you one part. I wanted to give you the whole of Leanne's story. So come back on Thursday for part two.

56:24Thank you.