Vicky Pattison: What If I’m Not a Good Mum?

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1:47Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of Happy Mum, Happy Baby, the podcast. Today's guests are my friends. They are Vicky Patterson and Erkan Ramadan. Vicky Amigo, way back. She's joined me on many a Copperfield Trek, many a Copper Trek, and she is an exceptional human. And her meeting her, I've got to say, it was a joy to actually meet someone like him and know that he was going to be in her life. Now, as you might be aware, they're not parents yet, but they have been filming a TV show that's all about them being on the fence, which I think is a really interesting point of life. I think so often, especially my generation, you kind of go, well, I meet someone, I get married, I have children, and actually more and more of us of kind of going, well, maybe I don't want that.

2:35We don't need to just do this thing because that's what society tells us. That's what we should be doing and we're not going to be fulfilled. So Vicky and her kind of been together filming this new documentary where they go into different avenues, basically, of if they are going to have children, what does that look like? What does it look like without children? Vicky also froze her eggs several years ago as well. Going back to visit those as well is another piece of that puzzle, really. It's an interesting thing to talk about. So I hope you enjoy listening to them navigating whether or not they're going to have children.

3:06It's Vicky and Erkan.

3:11It's all in the doner, but it doesn't check. I mean, it's too much. It's too much to get on. There's so much going on for you two right now. Yes. I'm really sorry. It's gone. It's gone. Obviously. She's meant to be quitting soon. I don't think we've ever had anyone faith on the podcast before. It's the first time. It's really bad. I'm so embarrassed. like sometimes they try and cut it out of ours and then they just leave a grip and fill off I don't remember you as a smoker she's not so this is the thing she's become it and I was never a I would be a social smoker a social smoker yeah if I was drunk my friend was having one or Pete was smoking but she can't smoke she's got no tick I mean I don't know why but she's like one of them awkward yeah like a claw hand I was never cool with it yeah you can tell she doesn't smoke but so what happened what was the there's a couple of things that were the catalyst for the vaping so my dad is a recovering alcoholic.

4:02Yeah, he was a big factor. And needs to do something with his hands, obviously, in terms of habit when he's sitting watching the TV. So he picked up vaping. And we had him stay with us for like a month one Christmas. And there was only so many, like so long, you can sit with someone like in a cloud of like candy floss smokiness without being like, well, go on, give us a blast of that then. So I'm with a child. I'm so sorry. I picked it up like that. And then I had like a really stressful start of the year last year. And actually the stress didn't go away. And I couldn't calm down. I couldn't relax.

4:32So I sought out synthetic forms of relaxation, essentially. And I was very much like, I can give this up any time. Fucking fast forward. She's become a serial vape. But I mean it is. It's a big crush. It's a terrible vape. She's pissed it up again. I know. I'm not going to do what I'm saying. Shall I confiscate this vape? No, I can't confiscate it. I'll get twitchy if you take it off us. This conversation's making us vapey. It is. I feel right. a serious problem on my hands tell me about your childhood were they very different so different I think one of the things that really attracts me to Erkan is honestly his family are so nice they're so nice and your family dickheads she acts like her family I love your mum your family are lovely my family's very I suppose the dynamics of it especially my childhood were very complicated you know being the child of an alcoholic your formative years are often quite different to everybody else's and I grew up in a house that was I can't say absolutely right so lovely my mum's incredible my sister's my best friend my dad is a great man but there are like fundamentals that somebody who isn't the child of an alcoholic wouldn't understand you know like I grew up a lot of the time very scared I was forced to grow up before my time I was quite shouty sometimes you know it it was just it was what it was it was volatile um and subsequently like you know as an adult me mom and dad have split up which is the best thing for them and like i'm so happy that they're both living you know separate lives and happy in themselves but like our dynamics are really like they're sometimes spicy yeah so like at christmas it's like laura are you having me dad are you having you have me where's me mom like you're going to senate park so do things feel more confrontational straight away it's just logistics of having like a family like mine is sometimes there's just more to think about because family's straightforward they're so lovely they are but they're not they're so lovely because there's a lot of them but they're all so close and so happy and like so they just always want to be together all the time and like it's just so lovely I think that is like one of the reasons I find you and your family so gorgeous and attractive and lovely is the simplicity they can be a pain they're not a pain Honestly, I think they're so nice.

6:55It's just difficult. Are you saying this because you're on a pod in case I'm... No, I was just about to say it's just difficult because there's so fucking many of them. So how many are in your family? There is, so four boys. Wow. So, yeah, she's... Well, my mum tried to have a... It was our last attempt at the family. So you're the youngest of four boys. I'm the youngest of four boys. What are the age gaps? So you've got one, the oldest one is 10 years older than me. Okay. So all of them within 10 years. Yes. But they had two quite close and then they had a good six-year gap and then they had another two.

7:36Quite chaotic again though, surely. Yes. Like a different kind of chaos. Yeah, I mean, it was more like we had a lot of fight, as in tussles. Yeah. I think they were just loads of boys all together in one place. Yeah, and then me, obviously, there's a 10-year gap between me and my oldest brother. And our dynamics are very different. Really? He's very old school. Right. So we clash a lot, even today. But we still love each other. It's not like a serious clash. It's just different views. Yeah, exactly. Different time, different views. But yeah, we are a traditional Turkish family where everyone has to be like 20 minutes apart.

8:19when I first was said I was going to buy a house in Essex yeah my mum was sending her his dad was sending us right move links to houses round the corner of them I was like fucking hell I can't afford it I'm doing my best yeah they hate distance they will just call call him whenever they won't ask they'll just come right okay and very last minute plans like we're very yeah we're just they're just close and there's that like real relaxed relaxed like I don't know lovely sort of last minute vibe that honestly for them works but fucking gives me anxiety mate I can't do anything last minute are you jawed them like it's in your diary yeah say if we've got a birthday this week they'll call you two days before or a day before and say oh I've booked a meal with Kat and you guys and can you make it so it's but I expect you my dad's very much like that he'll just phone me and be like so you're coming over on Sunday where was the planning and when you were younger, did you ever look to the future and think that you would like to have kids of your own one day?

9:23Before meeting each other. So let's talk, at this point, should we talk teens? I think it's one of those things for a lot of people who kind of go, I'm definitely going to be a mum one day. I think that starts for teens, especially girls. Do you want to go or shall I go? Do you have a... Ladies first. Thank you. Very polite. You're obviously just showing off. No, I didn't. So I have like friends and sort of family like my sister for example my mum always reminds us that Laura would ask for a dolly every Christmas really? yeah yeah she wanted a dolly and I would ask for like get set for science kits and that I was a bit of it I was like all like creative stuff like pens I was like arty and scholarly that's nice though I like that I ask you but I was never the like you know really maternal things desperate to start a family vibe and I suppose I kept waiting for that penny to drop.

10:18And it never really did for me, G. Really? Even in like going into your 20s? No, but then I do sort of like, I look back, like try and be a bit reflective. And I think maybe I wonder if I wasn't, I think a lot of like, for me, what started these conversations about starting a family and blah, blah, blah is finding the right man. And I know that's not the same for everyone. But for me, I feel like that has made the, that has tipped the scales somewhat. It's feeling like, oh, I'm in a healthy, happy relationship and I'm with a lovely partner. Like, could I, am I in a place to have these conversations, to start a family, to be a mother, to be this person?

11:01Like, in my 20s, I wasn't with the right people. I was in full survival mode, mate. You were. And it's really interesting, over the years, finding out more about your dad's situation and more about what you would have seen as a child because I would imagine as an adult that can push you in one of either two ways and actually instead of going against that, it definitely was an outlet for you to go and to get wasted and then being on a show that's obviously going to exploit you within that as well. Yeah, I think I also made the documentary, didn't I, a couple of years ago, Vicky Patterson, Alcohol, My Dad and Me.

11:39And I think I said in that, I was like, there's a huge part of me that believes I've subconsciously closed the door on having children because I believe that I will have a child that is broken like I am. because I believed I was for a really long time me father's daughter and um I was just gonna be an alcoholic like he was I thought it was a foregone conclusion I thought it was like predetermined destiny and I was terrified of this huge genetic element and I believed that I was so that my child would be and I thought no you know I'm gonna sort of stop this here yeah and I think for a long time that definitely played a huge part on stopping myself even thinking about being a mother um but like i've done loads of work on myself i've also understood my dad's disease a lot more and you know yeah understood myself a lot more and i think being an adult within that situation as well having that understanding and but also vic your your drinking that was what a lot of people did at that time.

12:59We went out and we got absolutely shit-faced. Do you know what I mean? The difference between us going out is that you were part of a TV show where you were part of a storyline and everything was exaggerated and amplified. And, you know, when you've got producers and stuff in place, things are sort of taken to push the limits. Yeah. Do you know what's so weird? I think it's with all of the America's Next Top Models stuff and the doc being out. I see you watching that the other day. Yeah, honestly, I devoured it. And I think potentially because I felt a sense of, like I could really relate to a lot of what they were saying.

13:40Certainly in terms of like, you know, elements of manipulation and story producing and things like that and just contrived elements within reality TV. And I think, like, I think it would be so easy for me to just not take any accountability, Jay, and say, like, I was on this controversial and wild TV show. I was manipulated. I was only comfort zone. I was young. Which it was, in a way. And honestly, like, full disclosure, yes, there's elements to that. But also, even before I was on Geordie Shore, I was on a dangerous trajectory. like I was drinking too much I was partying I was probably going out with the wrong people I was expressing my emotions in a very like dangerous and unhealthy way I was quite aggressive like all of these things like it wouldn't have been public knowledge that I was this person by any stretch of the imagination but I would have still been like unhappy and unhealthy without Geordie Shaw, you know?

14:44I do still think reality TV in particular, the one I did, there is some... There certainly was a real lack of duty or care, but I feel like now it's definitely gone a lot better, right? I'd like to think it's better. So it are. But, I mean, you were very clearly left feeling like... You were left feeling ashamed, you were left feeling embarrassed, you were left feeling less than. not good enough. And I think, Vicky, for all of that to carry with you for so long, and I feel like it's something that you're only actually sort of shedding over the last sort of, you know, certainly since I've known you more in the last few years, I feel like that's still something that you're learning to let go of.

15:33Let go of, yeah. Because our past doesn't define who we are, and you're a fucking phenomenal human. She is. Honestly, it's so nice. and, oh God, I do love you, Jamie. Thank you. So obviously, having just done Strictly, I was quite vocal about how grateful I was for that opportunity to have that big platform again and potentially reach audiences that didn't know me and maybe it's changed people who might have had a preconceived notion about me or an old idea of me to give them a chance to see the new me. I was very grateful. And so many people were like, come on, stop talking about it now. Even people were calling me and saying she needs to stop referring back to her past and what she did.

16:15She needs to move on. You've outgrown that by far and you've become an incredible person. So you need to give yourself some credit to how far you've come. Thank you. But it's very easy for other people to say when you've lived through it and you've been told for 10 years or whatever it was, five years spent on the show. But that show had a long tail for me. You know, I've spent the last nearly 15 years trying to undo people's perception of me because of that show. When you've spent that long with people calling you, whatever it is that they called you because of your behaviour on the show, it's very difficult, you know, to let go.

16:57And still you'll pick up a paper, Jodie Shaw star Vicky Patterson. There's always that referral. Isn't that crazy? I know, it's crazy. Still, I'll log into Instagram. She'll achieve so much. for them to keep referring back to that era in our life. But it is what it is. Do you feel, I feel like, especially in motherhood, that feeling of not being enough is something that we hear so much about from women. Do you feel like that might be another layer that's kind of blocked it off for you for a certain? Honestly, like, I am absolutely terrified of, and I'll cry when I say this, because I have a genuine fear that I won't be good enough to be a mum.

17:44Unbelievable. I've seen you with the dogs. I've seen the way you are with me. I know, it's such a funny... Anyone that's not a dog lover will be like, well, I've seen you with dogs just in Iceland. There's something amazing, and I think there's something in that. There's something about the relationship with pets that they see that human... what's really inside that human. Do you know what I mean? And they see that interaction is such a pure thing. And I think actually that's why you and Pete with your dogs, that's why that relationship is so key, actually, and for other people, actually, to see that connection and that love that you guys have.

18:25It's pretty special. But like you said, obviously, people that don't have pets won't understand. No, no, but it's not just a, oh, hello, doggy, stroke on the head. Exactly. Oh, Normie, I'm obsessed. When was the first time that you started thinking about fatherhood? Well, I met Vicky, to be honest. Really? Yeah. Did you? Like, pretty similar to Vicky growing up. I was a footballer, kept going out loads, drinking loads, affecting my footballing career, then injuries and whatnot. And then I had to just take a step back and be like, listen, I need to stop this high life. I need to knuckle down, find a career.

19:07Because when you're in a Turkish family, the idea is you find a partner, you find a business, you find a partner, you get engaged, married and then kids. So where I grew up, that's all I grew up around was that journey. So you kind of always felt like you was there. Yes, and like I said, all the three brothers. You always knew what it was expected of. Yes, and all my brothers above me had businesses, had their partners, and there was me going out, exploring, doing this and that. And I felt when football didn't work out, I felt the pressure, and I just sort of froze, took a step back. I said, I think, just get back on the path, be this boy that my dad wanted to be.

19:55But, yeah, it was just very similar to yours. but yeah and then my brothers started having kids and I was a uncle early on how young how young were you god I must have been early 20s how did that feel having nieces and nephews it was beautiful but god it put me off really it really put me off the reality is though it's a very different vibe that actually made me not want to have children what about it because well I've got five nieces and nephews now so I've experienced all different stages and every time I have them look after them I mean I'm talking about half a day or a few hours and it just I was like I do not want kids it was beautiful to see and be the cool uncle but the noise the intensity the you are preaching to the choir yeah you know I know yeah you probably backed me up on this but I don't know it might be different but what I find so funny right is I can be having a chat with someone and my kids might be having an argument or being really raucous and like playing like playing somewhere I'll still be having that conversation but the person I'm talking to can see their eye twitching I'm just gonna no no no it's fair I can channel that I'm so with you right now can we have this chat before one of them comes over and interrupts?

21:26It's such a skill, Jay. I swear, like, me sister's the same. I was there at the weekend. And maybe he'll be like, ma, ma, ma, ma. And I will be, like, literally, like you say, glitching. Yeah, I just... Like, having a fucking breakdown because I'm like, that band wants you, you know, Laura. And, like, she's just like, what? Like, mothers have this special skill of knowing, like, when it's serious, when it's just the background noise, when they really need you. But all of us, like, honestly, we look after, whenever we look after Irk's nieces and nephews. Oh, God, it's intense, man. It is so intense.

21:56And, like, their mum and dad, like, Tash and so on, they always say to us, like, Vic, you know, we just set them off with our iPads. We just do this, we just do that. Like, we're running around taking them to Smith, doing this, doing that. There's a definite difference between being an auntie and uncle and being a mother and a father. It's a little bit like, you know, when you're a couple and you're, like, first, like, starting, like, girlfriend and boyfriend, when you know that the time you have to be together, you're on it, right? You have to be together, making the most of it or whatever. But actually, then when you move in together, it's different.

22:25You've got to learn. There's space. There's space. Yeah, or just kind of like, it's the sustainability within your time together. So it shifts. Yeah, that's a good point. I guess it's a little bit like that. And plus, it would be love for your own child, which is very different. Different, yeah. Although your love for your, you know, niece or nephew is a special bond, I think. Exactly, yeah. Yeah, it does feel different. So when you first met, was there a point where you did have that chat? Not initially. No, we were confused. We just enjoyed ourselves. We did. We did just enjoy ourselves. And made sure it was right for each other.

22:57We'd both come off the back of breakups, of quite significant relationships. And I think ultimately our goal when we met each other was to have fun and to find the joy and the romance and the excitement in a relationship. I'd been really hurt and was really wary. And publicly hurt as well. which is, you know, that adds a different element to it as well. Oh, it's a special kind of fuckery. It really is. So, yeah, so I think I was just, like, rebuilding that faith in, like, men. And Irk did that beautifully. Yeah, I understood that as well. Yeah. Didn't want to rush her or either of us. She was obviously used to be married.

23:41To be wed. That was very old school. basically so yeah so we we had a good like six months of keeping it secret which was quite which was actually really nice or at least try you know like it was so terrible we did get we did get followed by the paparazzi a lot we did and we had to stop posting where we was because it was just following us and I think the press sort of got on like fuck now they're both at Soho Farmers do you know what I mean we were like alright we get it we've got to be a bit more COVID. So I think for a while we were just enjoying each other's company, working out. It was beautiful, wasn't it?

24:21It was lovely. It was very fun. It was. It's nice. And even when it became public, like it didn't change how we felt about each other. But again, that public element of it because of everything that had come before that added a different way. So you almost before introducing you as a couple, if you like, you do want to take that time before that noise. Because you know that with that noise comes the reminder of the past. Do you know what I mean? It's very like it's never just that one thing like the whole fact that you're Vicky from Geordie Shore like it's never that one thing it's got to harp on about the past at the same time oh it's got a long tail yeah like I've I've read articles about myself like Vicky Patterson and why she can't keep a man like and I'm just thinking like what the why is this why is this going to give me the answer yeah wish you could fucking tell me you know what I mean so I yeah but I think like I think we enjoyed getting to know each other first which we needed and then And I think we took things really slowly again because I'd been hurt because he was respectful of that.

25:22And do you know what, Jay, before you knew it, I was like 35. And it happened so quickly, mate. Yeah. Like, you know, you move in together, you have a couple of years. We had COVID. Like, a couple of things happen. Like, you focus on your career, you have a nice time, you get to know each other, you have a couple of holidays. Four years went so fast. So quick. But it was, obviously, we had such a good time. If we did, we had such a good time. Like, earlier as a relationship, we're really footloose and fancy pretty fun, weren't they? And now you're just tied down and married and fall and chained.

25:54It's awful. Damn dogs and house and wedding ring. But there must have been a shift within that time because obviously you've frozen your eggs. Yes. So was there a moment where you're just like, fuck, actually, if we do want this in our future, we have to take some steps to, we might not want it now, but actually there's a future proof. Yeah. Yeah, I think... It was more so... It was me. It was yourself, yeah. Well, obviously we're a team, but... Absolutely. We definitely discussed it together. Yeah. I thought, obviously, it's due to the age difference. So you're six years younger. Six years younger, yes.

26:27It does remind you of this a lot. All the time. But I feel like I make it worse because I tell everybody's older. You know that, don't you? She doesn't correct the press and the press call me, say I'm 42 and I'm actually 32. and she continues to enjoy it. That's what she does, yeah. It's an every article you see in the paper online, 42. So they whack on at 10 years and she loves it. Like you're enjoying magic. Oh, bless you. The worst thing as well is like, this is really not funny, but Ur-Kangetti's... I think it is for you. I think Erkan gets his pictures stolen a lot from his Instagram. Yeah, I do get catfished a lot.

27:14And people use them to catfish. It's so terrible. In like Holland and... Oh my God. But honestly, I've had like messages off women being like, I'm speaking to a fella online, I'm so sorry. And I'm like, honestly, you're not. But my heart breaks. But they do the same when they use his pictures. It's always like, get the fuck. It's always like, Gary, 42, electrician. I mean, do I look like a Gary? Do I really look like a Gary? Let me reframe it, yeah. And they always age him up as well. I was like, look, I think everyone's trying to tell you, isn't we, it's time for the Botox. Never. Well, I guess the age gap is one of those things that, with Erkan being in his 20s at that time, might make you go, you know, because I think we all start thinking about what age we would like to be.

28:04And if you're still thinking, I'm in my 20s, and actually I'm not there yet, there's got to be sort of a protective layer within that of like okay how do we make this work and make sure that when we are ready that we can still make that happen I think that's where the egg freezing came from like obviously I was aware that I was getting slightly older in particular with relation to my fertility and I think coupled with all the scaremongering that's out there about like you know this biological clock and all the rest of it. And also if you've not even been thinking about your fertility yeah suddenly be like fuck my fertility yeah it's not maybe this isn't something that's gonna always be there no and like do you know I always feel like and I might not be the only one but I feel like you know as women we're like you spend a lot of your time being like I can't get pregnant because I want to do X, Y and Z in my career and I mustn't do this before then and then blah blah blah and then this has to happen and then I need this great man and I need like these like ducks in a row and then all of a sudden you're like shit now I have to get pregnant and like it feels like that window closes so quickly so for me I was about 35 when I forced me eggs and we'd been together about four years and that decision was born from an awareness that I was getting older that me eggs were probably going to start to be referred to as geriatric which I fucking love but also that our relationship in my opinion was still in its infancy yeah I was very content we just bought a house had we already yeah I think we bought yeah you're right we had the dogs as well Just one.

29:37Just one. Yeah, we just had my life. Then she... We wanted to give our relationship a little bit more time to develop and we wanted to get married. Yeah, we wasn't even married at the time. We had certain things we wanted to do, so we thought, we had this conversation, and I was like, should we free some eggs and embryos if we can and then potentially give ourselves a little bit of a security blank here? And that's everything that you did. You did eggs and embryos. Yeah, absolutely. That thing of kind of, like, we've spoken really honestly about the fact of also being foolhardy in that and kind of like how do I do it so that actually we're protected and that if you two break up, that your fertility is protected as well.

30:12And it's not then a conversation of, well, I've got your embryos and I'll use them and then that becomes a murky area. Yeah, I think, so I joke and I think... Of course, frozen some additional eggs. Yeah, I joke and I think humour is the way I sort of deal with a very, I think like quite a difficult pill to swallow, do you know what I mean? And it's like, we've made embryos, we've made three. And through making my latest show, we found out that two of them are of really great quality. You have different grades? Yeah, you get different grades. Honestly, it's quite like... That makes sense. It makes me so emotional, though.

30:50And also having revisited them during the show, that's a very, you know, that's... It's quite emotional. Yeah, because you do it at that time. And I imagine if you're not there yet, you freeze them to sort of park it and then come back to it if you need to. So actually to return to it and then investigate what those grades are. Yeah. But also as well, like, it's the first iteration of a version of myself and Erkan, you know? And, like, the idea that I wouldn't feel emotional about that is crazy, because you know me. I'm fucking unhinged. Like, I'm so emotional. I think you spoke to your mum about it and she didn't...

31:21Oh, my mum didn't get it. I was like, I've got to visit me, I'm Rose. And she was like, how fucking bizarre. I was like, carry her a different generation. I'm going to talk to someone else. I understand that. There's no thing, right? So the eggs wouldn't have held the same sort of weight, maybe, whereas the embryos are very different. They're slightly further along. They've had that magical kind of meeting. They're me and her. The embryos definitely made me feel a certain way. And having someone refer to, like, we're a third embryo, they were like, oh, the quality on this one's not as good. I was like, shut your fucking mouth.

31:53Protecting my ovary. I was like, don't talk about him that way. And I got really attached to what they referred to It was like the runt of the litter. I was like, someone needs to stop this bitch. Because I am getting so angry. And this is what's to come, potentially. I'm crazy. You should see her at a park. If one of the boys gets into a little scrap with another dog, she dives in. She's like, get off my dog. I'm really confrontational. No, she is. I'm protective. And it's not something I love about myself. It's something I'm working on. But at least I know who I am. That's why you're going to be a brilliant mum and I feel sorry for the school mums.

32:33No, don't, because I really wanted to be, G, like, I think I wanted to be you as a mum. No, like, I just wanted to be, like, calm. You are, though. I've seen it. I am not calm. I definitely have times where I am not patient. I definitely shout. Like, I, yeah, I cannot sit here at night and say that I'm... Yeah, listen, everyone's got... Yeah, I mean, your transparency is really, it's lovely to hear. I think it's needed for me. But like, honestly, mate, I thought I was going to be one of these mums who was like reading bedtime stories and making things from scratch. She will. No, you don't need to do that.

33:09The bedtime stories you'll do, the food you don't need to do. Fuck that, okay. But like also like if somebody else's mum came out in the park and was like, oh, your child bit my child. I'd be like, oh my God, like let's talk about it. Like, I'm so sorry. You've definitely got that in you. You've definitely got both sides. I think everyone has. Since getting the fucking dogs made, I've realised I will be the mother at the prison gates being like, he's innocent! And he's got women in his freezer. No, I swear to God I've worked out who I am through the dark. He's got women in his freezer. Yeah, honestly, I'm not going to be a decent I'm not going to be like a really measured woman.

33:44I'm going to be a fucking lunatic. You'll learn to be.

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35:09Let's go back to the embryos. How did it feel leaving them that time? Did it feel very different to the first time around where that wasn't even a thing that you were going to do now? Whereas now, obviously, with the show, you are exploring. Let's talk about the premise of the show is you guys exploring whether you want to become parents and the route that you would take to become parents. So how did it feel that time leaving the embryos behind? So you're so right. Like the first time we were in a very different headspace. And for us, it was about buying ourselves more time and working out who we were and trying to see if that like a penny, I suppose, about being parents would drop.

35:49So also as well, like after... It wasn't marriage as well. I think that was one of the key things as well. Quite traditional in that sense, I suppose. Also as well, I think it's a really important dimension for anyone who's been through this process. They'll probably understand it's quite a lot on your body. Were you surprised by that? Yeah, I was really... I knew nothing about it until we went through the process. And yeah, it was quite a lot, wasn't it? I was really unprepared for the long ramifications. And also just how difficult I found it and how painful I found it all. One of the girls from Copperfield actually reached out to me.

36:29And because through Copperfield we've met quite a lot of incredible women who've had to egg freeze for whatever reason. So I had some people I could talk to and she reached out to me afterwards and she was like, I just want to check how you are doing post egg retrieval. And I was like, mate, I don't want to complain to you, but like, I feel like I've been hit by a car. I was like, physically I'm in bits, but like hormonally I'm all over the shop as well. And she was like, I wanted to reach out. She went, I found my egg retrieval worse than chemotherapy. be wow yeah obviously that's incredibly subjective and i hope i've delivered that without grace and sensitivity but like it can be a lot on a woman's body do you think that's probably not talked about enough because that is an area that well we're doing it because we want to have babies we can't moan about it heaven forbid we complain yeah yeah and for the most part like for someone like me who's approaching it from an incredible place of privilege and being extremely fortunate you don't feel like you should complain because you know there's loads of women who would take your hand off to be in your position to be able to do it, you know, so you don't feel like you can.

37:39But I feel like if we don't have those honest conversations, if we don't give this, like if we don't talk about this and actually share our honest accounts of what happens, then more women are going to go into it blind like I did. And not understanding like how the highs and the lows like, you know. And also we'll not get past the judgment stage. Like I've received so much judgment when Afro's... I've read this and I'm really surprised. I don't understand. I thought I'd ever seen anything, but it was awful. It was just insane. Bless you. You live in a really nice world. I remember being sort of like about two weeks in and for like, want of a better word, my eggs weren't egging.

38:21They weren't doing what they should. And we'd already had sort of like a bit of a four-month journey to get to this point. Like the first time we'd gone to sort of start the process, I had a cyst, took a while to go. There were other issues. I remember feeling like full of synthetic hormones and quite unstable, for want of a better word, like very emotionally, very emotional. Just a bit, just not myself, mate. Maybe it's very myself if you look at it, I don't know. but I remember going on social media and talking about like, oh, you know, we've had to up me hormones to get the eggs to do what they need to do before they can do a retrieval.

39:01And I'm just feeling quite delicate, I suppose. Yeah. And I just got like so much backlash and people were like, I got messages being like, wild stuff, like if God doesn't want to have you, if God doesn't want you to have a child, you shouldn't be pursuing this. Like, how dare you, blah, blah, blah, and all that. You can take things like that on the chin and buy it off as, like, essentially religious fanatics or whatever. But there was more stuff like, if he doesn't want to have a kid with you now, if your partner doesn't, he's never going to want to. So I don't know why you're doing this. Like, he's not going to want it down the line.

39:34Really quite malicious stuff. Did you talk to each other about the things that were being said? I did say to Irk, like, I'm going to have to have a bit of a break from social media. People being like, I don't understand why he just aren't having kids now. And I was like... Just insane comments. But comments that just lacked a bit of sensitivity, I suppose. And we knew why we were doing it. Like, we were really united in our decision to do it. But it always just feels like it's the woman who gets the stick. Like, you know, I'm not surprised he doesn't want a kid with you. And blah, blah, blah. Have you seen what you've done?

40:05Like, oh, honestly, mate. And it was just relentless. And I was like, I'm going to come off social media. Because all he was doing is just trying to shed light on the whole experience. And then you get a negative comment. And also just say to women, like, there's an alternative to, like, rushing this timeline. And, you know, potentially it is quite expensive. And I know it's not for everyone. I hope I'm being sensitive when I say this, but please look into it, you know. That was all I was trying to do. And in the end, I didn't feel like I was strong enough to talk about it anymore. And I had to.

40:36Yeah, I came off. I came off social media for a little bit. I think it was only, like, four or five days, mate. But you know what brought us back, Jay? It was the maddest thing. Curiosity got the better of me one night. And I went back on Instagram, but not to like post or anything, just to like look at me DMs, which I know is so toxic, but this is who I am. And there was this message from this girl and she'll never know what she meant to me. But she said, just so you know, Vic, like I'm in my 30s and all my friends have got kids and it just like hasn't happened for me. Like I haven't met the right person.

41:07And I was feeling quite alone in my egg freezing journey. But every night I used to log on social media and see you doing your injections. I felt like we're doing it together. And I just thought, you know, isn't that so nice? Like for every however many negative comments, there's a woman like that. And I just was like, do you know what? You are absolutely this bitch. Get back on social media and remember why you were sharing this journey in the first place. So I came back. With things like that, with the pain and everything that had come with that, when you sort of finished that journey at that point, were you quite happy to say goodbye to it at that time and realise it later?

41:50I thought we was. I think we felt... We did the right thing at the time. Well, we did the right thing for us. Yes. What was it like for you at that time, actually? Yeah, I can. He's very kind. Yeah, I was just... I could see the weight that it was putting on Vicky. Yeah. And I just wanted to do anything I could to help her, like reassure her and make her feel more comfortable about having kids in the future. So it was all new to me. Obviously, when we went to the meetings and spoke about how it's going to work, et cetera, and then what she had to go through was a lot. It was quite scary to see.

42:38And, yeah, it was just, it was, I just wanted to do whatever I could. So, yeah, to get her through it and make her feel, just make her feel comfortable. You did such a nice job of looking after her, honestly. That's right. And you were, like, we were both. I think once we were finished with a G and, like, we've thought about this since because going back and seeing the embryos with the shot was so emotional. And I didn't feel that, like, connection to them then. because like I say I was in a different place we were in a different place but now we're having all these conversations and thinking very seriously about starting a family like now looking at those embryos they're so special and so important but at the time we did just I felt like we did it we had to we felt like we did it to tick a box and take the pressure off yeah and then we can get back to living living our current life and getting married and ticking a few more boxes until just like As you were, feeling ready to do that next step.

43:40Was it after the egg treatment that you had your PMDD diagnosis? It is PMDD, isn't it? It is, but I don't know. It was before I knew about my PMDD. I've known about my PMDD for about, I'd say, five years now. Really? Yeah. So I was really scared about how the egg freezing hormones, like the things you've got to inject yourself with and stuff, would affect my PMDD. And in my head, I thought they were going to exacerbate my symptoms and leave me essentially completely debilitated. I can say I was pleasantly surprised. Right towards the end, when I mentioned earlier, I got that sort of like extra boost of hormones just to really make sure me eggs were doing exactly what they needed to do.

44:29It was a little bit spicy. but ultimately I wonder because PMDD is like a hormone imbalance isn't it? It's your body reacting to the ebbs and flows. What are the different symptoms that come with it? PMDD can manifest itself differently in everybody. For me I experience exhaustion, lethargy, anxiety like a bit of an emotional roller coaster. I really struggle to regulate emotionally. A lot of brain fog. A lot of the things that you get when you have menopause, basically, but it's for a specific period, seven to ten days before your period, your luteal phase. and it's like more dark moments you can have really negative thoughts and for me my via towards suicidal every so often not every month but it can so you know it's not a picnic Has having that diagnosis though helped you every month?

45:45because I think when you have those dark moments it's really hard to be rational. Like those dark moments want you to be anything but rational, of course. Whereas when you've got a diagnosis and you've got a further understanding of it, does that make it slightly easier to go, I know that's not, that's not a rational thought, that there's no truth in that, but I just have to push through for the next few days. Do you know, honestly. Has it made you stronger as well? Can you, as in like, can you handle it better? Oh God, honestly, like you just can't say the wood for the trees and anyone who's got it will tell you the same.

46:17Like, I know three weeks of the month. I love Urcan. I love my life. I'm dead grateful. I'm dead fortunate. You know, I'm happy. I'm ambitious. I'm confident. I can articulate myself properly. Like, I know who I am three weeks of the month. Seven to ten days of the month, I lose that completely. And you can't tell me it's a temporary thought. You can't reassure me that it's just my PMD day and it'll pass. and my brain can't be convinced because it's completely consumed with the negative, you know, that the world would be a better place without us in it, that we aren't meant to be together, that he doesn't love us, that my career is going to go away, that the worst possible outcome is always going to happen.

47:00And it's just impossible to convince yourself anything. Like, it's really, it's very apt that we're talking about this today because this was me last night, wasn't it? Yes, yeah. She was... So I've just come on me period today. I would love... These tears aren't because of that, though, because this is just you. I was just like... I'm still not blaming me period. This is who I am. I was downstairs... But the messages he was getting last night. Yeah, I was downstairs doing the washing, and she goes, do you love me? I'm like, yes, mate. Of course I do. When you get a message like that, though, are you instantly like, do you know what she needs?

47:38Yes. Do you just like, this is her PMDD? I know she's at this stage in the month. And I just, yeah, I'm always, I do my best to always reassure her, make sure I'm with her. We're passing the time. We're watching films and we're doing, I make sure we do as much as we can together to... Allevy, if someone would be saying. Yeah, just make sure she's not alone with her thoughts. that's when she that's when it gets difficult so yeah as long as she's working as soon as she's finished work she's with me and we're always together So before your diagnosis then were you aware of the of the cycle of it? Yeah So I knew what was happening but I just thought I was going insane So did you know that it was linked to your cycle though?

48:34Do you know what I couldn't really I think looking back I was able to understand enough and articulate enough to talk about it on social media and go and see a doctor so i remember going i had about five trips to the jp i remember this little stage and um they were just like periods get worse as you get older yeah you know every woman's dealing with pms they're just not whinging about as much as you are have you tried losing weight like honestly mate some of the most like misogynistic things possible i had said to me and also just like real lack of understanding yeah um and i remember talking about it on social media and just being like i am really struggling with my periods yeah i lost this like i feel like i'm losing my mind like i'm forgetful i can't speak i have brain fog don't even get me started on like my mood swings blah blah blah i'm nigh on narcoleptic how quick i fall asleep like blah blah all these things and um these women reached out to me in the hundreds and they were like you it's not pms you've got PMDD, it's like a medical condition and you should be being treated for it, do you know what I mean?

49:40So I remember I had to go private in the end, which I was obviously quite frustrated and again in a privileged position to be able to do, but I remember going and I told the doctor everything and I was like, I feel like everyone thinks I'm just hysterical and it's making me feel like I am going insane, you know? she was like you're not hysterical you've got pmdd and like i burst into tears because i remember this i was i think i was waiting outside you did you did um and she said you're not hysterical you've got pmdd and it was the for me it was the liberation the moment of feeling like oh god this has got a label and i know i'm not crackers and blah blah blah but um was that a bit reassuring it was it was really in a sense it was but i think what's frustrating is and i'm sure anybody dealing with PMDD will tell you there's not like one size fits all medication for it.

50:31You don't just get to take a pill and get your life back or whatever. It's nice to be able to understand it a little bit and it's ebbs and flows and I can say to Irk, oh, it's coming in there. He says, is it PIMD? Like if I'm starting to be a bit spicy, he's like, is it PIMD? And I'm like, is it? Oh no, the PIMD is coming. No, no, it is PIMD, yes. So we have that moment between where. And also I can warn me agents, Like they can help us navigate that in terms of work. But there isn't at the moment anything like any specific pill or any specific. Yeah. You get recommended different types of birth control, which can help with your hormone imbalance.

51:08You get recommended cognitive behavioral therapy. There are certain like diet adjustments you can make. But ultimately, like you're just still trying to navigate it, but you understand it better. Getting a diagnosis helped that, but it doesn't help you deal with it, mate. Would that affect your fertility, though? No. No. No, PMDD doesn't affect your fertility. Things like, obviously, endometriosis, they all can. This is predominantly... It can, for some people, manifest itself as really heavy bleeding and painful cramps, but for me, it's all hormonal balance and emotional. I'm okay. and we've had our fertility checked a good couple of times now.

51:53Yeah. We did it once with the egg freezing and we found out we're okay and we've done it more recently as well on the show. What made you want to do the show now? I mean, we did say as soon as we get married, we want to give ourselves a year of being newlyweds. That year went really fast, didn't it? It went really fast and we felt like it was the right time to start the journey. so was there a moment between you where you were like I think I think we're ready now so I think it was actually the polar opposite beam I don't know if I'm ready to show it it's been a rollercoaster it was I think it was more that like we should start getting ready we should because I think it's like the whole Turkish family idea of like this is the way that you live your life this is the order of things and obviously the age etc so it's just it's all coming into because you're being 42 the age exactly I'm 42 but he's 38 um Gars the electrician yeah so I think all those had a factor yeah and and pushed us towards well yeah to start the show we just yeah I think it felt like a natural follow on to the wedding didn't it exactly it looks right we said we'd give us a year yeah and then we still just didn't have that moment because we like we like our life and it's hectic and it's we've got a lovely family we've got nieces and nephews we've got dogs we've got a house a busy life so yeah it's just part of it feels really superficial and selfish for saying like we love our life we love the dogs and we love our jobs and we love the holidays and all these things because we're aware how much of a blessing like being a mother or being a father or having a family can be but also we want to make sure we're making the right decisions for us exactly so yeah So there was no real light bulb moment where we're like, fucking hell, let's have kids, you know?

53:53It's very much a roller coaster. It was. Like we'd opened down. But even that in itself is interesting because I think Vicky, it must have been like in 2015 or something, I think you're on Loose Women and you said categorically, I do not want to have kids. And the fact that I think it's really important to highlight the fact that we're allowed to say things like that in life and then change our mind. Yeah. Like life happens. Yeah, you grow. Yeah. Exactly. I wish I'd I think God that youthful arrogance though do you know what I mean no but that's who you were then that was your you were allowed to voice your opinions because that's where you are in life yeah but I said it when we I still remember it and I said it with like me full chest like no God 2015 oh so yeah I like Carol of Ormond there was just like it's because he's so young Aussie Aussie's so old he needs a abacus oh I'm so old I think like Like, obviously, I remember that moment and everyone being like, oh, you know, like, you won't get older.

54:49And I remember feeling so angry, like, I know exactly who I am. I'll never want kids before. And I wish I'd give myself a little bit of grace in there to be like, this is how I feel now. You know, things might change and blah, blah, blah and all the rest of it. Because, you know, you're entitled to feel however you feel at whatever age. But also, like, you've also got to allow, like, a bit of wiggle room to how you might feel in the future. but youthful arrogance really didn't afford me that. I'd say every night, just kind of try and replay that scene in your head but add in the line at the moment.

55:21I'm not clear, just add in those at the moment. Three words. Yeah, just really flip that script. That's the memory of it now. It's fine. This is my narrative. This is how I remember it. Sorry, Nadia Swahala. This is how I remember it. So no, I do remember that, mate. And I remember actually being so committed to that narrative that I was never going to have kids, you know. But again, it was indicative of the place I was in at the time and the probably quite toxic, problematic relationships, how I viewed myself, my relationship with alcohol. Like, there's so many things to consider about that version of me.

55:59But yeah, like, so much has changed since then. Healthy, happy relationship, lovely husband. I like this version of me, you know. Yeah. Yeah, I do. Lovely young husband. Oh, God, stop. We get it. You're not 42. And even during the show, I guess taking that on and almost in the hope that it's going to give you some answers. That's what it is. Even within that, has there been moments where you've been like, yes, no, yes, no? A hundred percent. No, so we honestly, that's so mad that you say that because we haven't seen it, but obviously we know we filmed it, we've lived it. It's very up and down.

56:29Right. Yeah. Very up and down. And we almost feel, we're trying to be as transparent as we possibly can be. and also trying to be really sensitive as well because we understand that infertility and infertility are very triggering and traumatic subjects for a lot of people. But ultimately, we're taking people along on this ride about our decision about whether or not we should start a family, whether we'll cut out and be parents. So there's moments where we are like... Yes, no, yes. Yeah, there's moments where we're really like, gosh, we've got so much love to give. Like, we're so excited for this, let's do it.

57:02And there's other moments where, you know, it normally falls after we look after other people's kids. Where we're like, fuck, we don't know if we can do this. It's real ebbs and flow, light and shade, isn't it, babe? Yeah, it's been a beautiful but scary journey. Does everyone have that? Did you and Tom have those moments? Like, should we, shouldn't we, shouldn't we? No, I always knew that I wanted to be a mum. Actually, I guess I thought fertility would stop me being a mum. So I think that was more of my thought. and I was definitely one of those people that just became everything. You know what I mean?

57:37And then when you have a loss and you're just like, no, I'm not fulfilled until I have that. So it became like there was a lot of desperation around it, I would say, for me. But I've got loads of friends who are like on the fence about it and actually I think that's a generational thing where we're suddenly discovering that we don't need, not everyone needs to have children in their lives to be complete. There's so many different types of lifestyles. There's so many different types of lives that people want to lead. Not everything has to be meet a person, get married. Not everyone has to live that life.

58:12That's just something that has been force-fed to us through the generations. But actually, yeah, I just think life is a bit more colourful and, you know. Just do what's right for you. For us. I think that's what the show, like, ultimately through the vehicle of reality TV, like, we have, it's a bit obs-doggy, it's a bit reality TV, but ultimately through that, we wanted to share our journey. Yeah. But also, like, along the way, celebrate other different ways to, like... I mean, I've learnt loads. To celebrate motherhood. Like, we look at... Surrogacy. Yeah, we look at being an adoptive parent.

58:49We obviously look at egg freezing through something we've done. And there's moments as well where we celebrate, like, child-free options as well. Because I think you're so right. For so long we were force fed this narrative that a woman wasn't fulfilled or whole or whatever unless she was a mother. And actually, like, regardless of what we decide at the end of this show and in our lives, I really disagree with that. Yeah. I think women are brilliant and capable and powerful beyond measure. And if they want to have a child, if they can, like, that's an incredible moment. But there's also other things they can do that you're just as brilliant to celebrate, too.

59:24like getting the promotion finding the love of your life travelling the world whatever it is or getting a dog getting a dog you know like there's just so many other incredible things we need to celebrate as well so this show has taught us a lot and I'm so pleased we did it oh yeah 100 % so pleased it has led us to make a decision about our lives so I'm really grateful to it for that but I'm really scared about it coming out I hope everybody likes it we've really let them in like we've really got the camera at this time have you thought about the types of parents you would be if you were to go down the route of having children oh I know what he's going to say it's going to be a good cop back up tight relationship yeah I'm quite I'm going to be I'm fun but strict fun but firm obviously I want to be respectful no can I just ask are you two going off how you are with the dog?

1:00:26Yeah, I suppose. Yes, exactly. Absolutely. I bring like fun, rich, actually fun, drunk, rich, anti-vibes to any situation where I'm meant to be being responsible. Like I can't help myself. I bring it to like with my niece. I bring it with the dogs. I bring it when I'm meant to be in charge. But listen, it's going to be slightly different if we have children. I know, but I just don't know if that's my lane. Like I get really scared. I'm like, can I be that version as a mother? I'm not sure but Irk is very much more the measured calm responsible even though I'm younger yes enough of that honestly he's that version aren't you you're that parent you've got to take that role and I'm more like I mean we're a team at the end of the day and we've got to be singing from the same hymn sheet exactly so sometimes I do undermine his parenting techniques for the boys he's like I've fucking said no more treating but look at the eyes what annoys me is is when I'm trying to be disciplined or trying to teach them she does not back me and therefore they don't respect either of us Guys this is parenting Maybe we can do it then Maybe we can But I need you to be on board Go and we edit the show guys They just needed to go on this podcast We just need it in a moment Actually go on then Tell me more about that Do you think it would be okay Any tips?

1:01:50Guys You are two gorgeous humans. It's all about what you think you want in your lives and then sort of, hopefully that happens for you. Because obviously you know that once you make that decision, it's still a journey to actually get there. But all I know of you two is that you're two brilliant humans who are playful and fun and give everything your all. You're going to be amazing. Parenthood is messy and carnage and all those things. But the love, the love that you two have in spades, you've got a lot to give.

1:02:29What is the show called? Oh, we've just found out the name. Yes. How about the rest? Obviously, the wedding show was called My Big Fat Jody Wedding. We were fucking convinced they were going to call it My Big Fat Jody Baby. It makes sense. For so long, I was almost defeated. But I was just like, it is what it is. I've fought so many titles over the years and never won. I'm quite upset that I'm not in it. No, I feel bad. But actually, they've changed their mind. They've gone for, sorry about this, Vicky Patterson, Maybe Baby. Maybe Baby. You're in there somewhere. I'm somewhere. You're in there.

1:03:04I'm the old electrician. If you could write a letter of the journey so far, who would it be to and what would you say? oh god I think this is a you question do you know how you can both write letters yeah as in the journey of the show whether you want to be a parent I think I'd write a letter to oh god I'm going to cry I think I'd write a letter to my younger self when I look at you know those moments like saying I was never going to be a mum on Loose Women or thinking that I couldn't be a mom because I was broken and all those things um I would want to write a letter and say like whatever you decide is fine yeah like whatever you decide is fine like the show has taught work that there are so many incredible different ways to be a mother and also to celebrate the fact that you don't have to be that doesn't make you whole I think I acted so strong and put up this like real like bravado and this like big wall because I was just so scared and so uncertain and so tormented by my past.

1:04:21So I think I'd love to write my little younger self a letter and tell her like regardless of how it works out, it's going to be okay. Yeah. And also you're going to have a fucking wicked bit of kid for a husband. I like that. I like that. Yeah, I mean, just to tell people, give your life a chance, let yourself grow and let yourself become, find your purpose and then make a decision on your life. Yeah. Whatever it may be, it's fine. Are you writing a letter to everybody? Yes. Or are you writing it to boys or to girls? To everybody. To everybody. Yeah, very inclusive. I'll tell you my younger self as well.

1:05:05Yeah, yeah, yeah. Definitely, for sure. Yeah, I feel like your younger self could do with hearing that. Yeah, 100%, yeah. Final thing. I want you to complete this sentence. Shit. Okay. Just one. Okay, go. Ready? I'm happy when. Oh, I thought it was going to be like a song lyric. I'm sorry. Go on, go on. Go on again. I'm happy when. You want Chelsea when? No, I mean, yes. But I'm happy when me and Vicky are on the sofa. with two dogs watching a series with a Chinese. Do you know what? Maybe I was at home with the dogs and her ex. Just being a hunter. Can I just say that when I ask parents that question, a lot of them give very similar answers with their children.

1:05:49So I do not think actually, guys, you're a million miles away from that. All right. I know you have all these different travels and things that you do. Oh, more tissue. But one of the big worries is how parenthood will change our lives and there's no denying, there's no getting away from the fact that becoming a parent and having that responsibility, it is a life shift. Yeah. But the love that you receive and everything else that it gives you is just golden. Yeah. You've just, you know. Everyone says this. Honestly, your little family does make me broody though. They're so gorgeous. Yeah, you've not seen me in shouting mode.

1:06:27Less broody. I might have to send, I might have to send Vic over just trying to get I wish you'd come busy here I wish you'd come Don't think you're probably kids off I won't mind I told you I'm drunk Aunty Vibes at the minute Guys thank you so much Thank you Jean Thank you for having me

1:07:01hey it's page from giggly squad you already know once i'm in my jammies i'm in my final form and lately my last step before fully clocking out is the cover girl jammy lip sleeping mask I just twist, apply with the mess-free applicator and let the dreamy lavender scent literally tuck me in. By morning, my lips feel smooth, revitalized, and baby soft while I'm doing absolutely nothing. Iconic behavior. So shop CoverGirl Jammy Lip Sleeping Mask at your nearest retailer now. Only from easy, breezy, beautiful CoverGirl. I sold my car in Carvana last night. Well, that's cool. No, you don't understand.

1:07:39It went perfectly. Real offer, down to the penny. They're picking it up tomorrow. Nothing went wrong. So what's the problem? That is the problem. Nothing in my life goes to smoothie. I'm waiting for the catch. Maybe there's no catch. That's exactly what a catch would want me to think. Wow, you need to relax. I need to knock on wood. Do we have wood? Is this table wood? I think it's laminate. Okay, yeah, that's good. That's close enough. Car selling without a catch. Sell your car today on Carvana. Pick up fees may apply.