Why am I so angry? Parenting SOS with Dr Caroline Boyd

0:01Coming up on Happy Mum, Happy Baby, Parenting SOS. Yes. You know, we know that anger triggers our internal alarm system. Our brain is telling our body, I'm not safe. You need to prepare for action now. Your child doesn't see you as anger. It is one part of you. You've got many other parts, which your child will see every day. And so if anyone's listening and they are feeling just drowning in shame because they lost their temper with their kid this morning. I think it's really coming back to what are the other parts of myself that my child sees on a daily basis. You know, women need to be asked about this sensitively and as a starting point be allowed to feel it.

0:53Hello and welcome to Happy Mum, Happy Baby Parenting SOS. Now, I think it's fair to say we've come a long way when it comes to opening up about the messier realities of motherhood. And yet there is still a topic that we rarely get close to, and that is rage. Pure raging, red hot anger. We asked our community what triggers their mum rage and here's some of their answers. Feeling overstimulated by the mess and noise, children not listening, lack of appreciation and support from my partner, sleep or lack of. And when we asked how their rage made them feel after they shared feeling alone, drained, less of a person, guilty, out of control, like a failure and embarrassed.

1:35Now, I'm sure you all know what I'm talking about. For me, it usually happens when I'm knackered and when I've been pushed and pushed and feeling undervalued and ignored. It bubbles up as if it's coming from nowhere. However, it has been brewing for a while. So why does talking about it feel so hard? For this month's Parenting SOS, I have with me the very person to answer that question, Dr Caroline Boyd. Caroline is a clinical psychologist, an anger specialist who supports mums around maternal rage. Hello Caroline, how are you? I'm good, thank you. Thank you for having me. Oh, we've been talking about this for a long time and I've followed you for a very long time because I feel like this is an area that is so important to talk about, but for whatever reason, which you'll be able to shed light on, we all find it difficult to talk about?

2:23anger to me is like the hidden emotion in motherhood i think there's more awareness now around maternal anxiety and intrusive thoughts which is great and i think there is more awareness around female anger what's missing is well what do we do with it and i still think actually what i notice in my clinical work with mothers is that we are still women are still being socialized to to squash it, to suppress it. Is it because we've been taught growing up that anger is a negative emotion? Is that, you know, I think anger is always seen as something that it's almost like a loss of control. It gets such a bad rap, doesn't it?

3:05For women from a very young age, we're taught that we must be good, we must be quiet, we must not make a fuss. And so there are real sanctions actually against feeling anger, let alone expressing it. I mean, I want to be really clear because I'm a clinical psychologist, I'm a mum of two, and I feel angry sometimes. You know, I'm very familiar with that burning fireball in my stomach that feels kind of like it's whooshing out of me. It feels like my head is kind of fizzing, my body's electric. you feel sort of hijacked by that anger in that state when we've, you know, when we've moved into flipping our lid.

3:52But I think just understanding sort of more broadly that anger is neither good nor bad. It is a healthy human emotion that we all feel. And it has a really important function. So it's an adaptive response. And I think, you know, we'll hold on to the function of anger. You know, I hope as we talk, because anger is trying to alert us to some kind of harm, violation, injustice, insult, injury. And it's telling us that there's a problem. And also at the same time, because it is very physical and it is, it feels very visceral. there are real costs that come with anger. There are physical health costs.

4:44We know that excessive anger is linked to physical health problems like heart disease and problems with our immune system, chronic pain, anxiety and depression. And there are social costs too because when anger comes spilling out in a way that isn't constructive or productive then it can be destructive and it can harm our relationships with the people around us that we care about and often it is the people that we care about that bear the brunt of it. For some people, many of us actually, who have been taught to be good and so, you know, be polite and not make a fuss, our only experience of anger might be when we're just erupting in uncontrollable rage.

5:30So how can we actually turn towards it more so that we get more comfortable with our anger, but also our power about taking up space, about letting people know what is important to us, what we care about. What is actually happening when we get angry, like physically? We know that anger builds on anger. So when we are triggered in some way, whether it's because our children, we feel they're not listening to us, or we're feeling undervalued by our partner, feeling unseen by society what happens physiologically is the fight part of our fight flight freeze system is triggered what that means then is our body and our brain is flooded with stress hormones priming us to react right now so it really comes with that impulsion to act with that physiological response which feels so powerful so physical we shallow breathe we have all of our blood pumping around our body pumping oxygen to our muscles in order to act so whether that's to to run away or to fight and when you get to that point as well it always feels like on reflection it feels like a massive overreaction to the actual the final action because I feel like you've been prodded and by different things for so long sometimes it's something so minute that tips you over?

6:55Yeah, with this idea that anger builds on anger, it very much can be a cumulative response to the sheer overwhelm that comes with being a mum and all the expectations placed upon us, the myth of super mum and all those stories that come with that and that pressure to be perfect. The nurturer. The nurturer, self-sacrificing, we must be calm, coping and in control at all times. More recently, I think it is tougher now than it perhaps ever has been, because not only are we expected to be the all-giving, ever-present mother and the good wife, but also the super career woman. So with the rise of liberal feminism, which brought lots of progress for sure, more women going into the workforce meant that, you know, we're now doing two jobs.

7:47There's the paid work and then the unpaid caregiving work and no one came in to fill that gap. If you then think about a mum who's had a long day and then she gets tested by her child and you think about all of those contextual forces at play, what it means is that that mother internalises, you know, these beliefs that I must be perfect, I must be doing it all to be a good mother, I must get it right. And the anger has to come out somehow. So if we're throughout, let's say a given day, continually shoving that anger down, because we feel it's not permitted, it's forbidden, it's unacceptable, then it just stays simmering under the surface.

8:32And then what that means is when it's sort of the 10th, 15th, 100th provocation, whatever that might be, then it all comes erupting out and then we might act in a way that's scary to our kids. So shouting, storming off, maybe rough touch. Some people would say that they find calling it maternal rage feels patronising or feels difficult in some way. Why don't we just call it rage? I really feel, having worked with a lot of mums around their anger and noticing these patterns that we're talking about around emotional suppression because of the good girl narratives and then these particular contexts that come in to our experience in the reality of mothering.

9:19Motherhood is an institution, a system and a set of beliefs, rules, regulations, all the shoulds that dictate what it means to be a good mother. And this system is defined and controlled by men and is deeply oppressive to women. And there are real consequences to living in patriarchal motherhood. And one of them is internalising the myth of super mum, as we've talked about, leading to feeling less than, a real sense of inadequacy when we feel like we're failing to live up to these impossible standards. And then this real self-blame and self-punishment. I think that maternal rage is completely needed and we do need to specify these contexts.

10:14Caroline, we asked you to send us your most three asked questions. So I'm going to ask you them. So the first one is, how common is maternal rage? It's very common. The latest research has found that as many one in three women feel intense anger in the first year of having a baby. and that anger is linked to violated expectations for support say from your partner violated expectations for self-care and feeling on edge and that's often linked to I guess managing baby's sleep and we can think about all of the expectations that come with that yeah so it's very common and actually been found in some studies to be more prevalent than postnatal depression.

11:04Really? Yeah. So I think it shows that maternal anger is something that needs to be taken seriously. You know, women need to be asked about this sensitively and as a starting point be allowed to feel it. Do you think it's linked with the fact that when you become a mum and when you're pregnant, all of a sudden there are lots of voices, there are lots of things for you to take on board. There's just a new pressure. You know, there's so much judgment. It feels like all of a sudden you're just very available for people to throw their opinions at? I think that's such a big part of it. I think that it's such an emotive domain, isn't it, motherhood, particularly and parenting more broadly.

11:47When you're pregnant, you feel, not always, but you can feel like you are cared for and people sort of attend to you and celebrate you and you have this bump. As soon as you have the baby... Oh, it's a different story. you're just the container and and then it's the emphasis is and this is really reflected in the the gp six week check isn't it how's the baby how's the well-being of your baby and also also i think it's a societal thing as well though because if you're getting on the tube as a pregnant woman generally people are lovely i felt like everyone was just so it's like the world was looking after me then all of a sudden you have a pram you are the most annoying person on that train you know then add the baby crying why can't you figure out why your baby is crying it just feels like all of a sudden it feels like an attack on you it's that heavy policing isn't it yeah and so what happens is with that societal judgment you know we all absorb these beliefs and stories is that we then internalise it and then we police ourselves.

12:56We invalidate our own anger. We question our own anger. Is it legitimate? Do I actually have a right to feel this way? Yeah. Your second most asked question is where does the rage come from? How long have we got? The triggers can be really quite simple and sort of seemingly small. I think for me, it's often a response to sensory overload, just feeling like my head is just too full. And so it's the noise, the light, you know, just feeling super sensitive to that. I guess just those contexts where, you know, we're expected to be at home with our kids ever present and giving them our attention 24-7.

13:43And then at the same time, there are expectations that we're out killing it at work. the bar is so high that it's impossible. And so when we feel that we've messed up, or we're not living up to that bar, then we feel this sense of failure, and this sense of inadequacy. And that's where the shame comes in. So I think the shame is a really heavy part of the anger. Yeah, absolutely. Thinking about how we cope with... Well, that's your third question is how do I get rid of it? Because surely we just, you know, we click our heels three times and then it just disappears right well that's that's what i was gonna say yeah yeah the thing is is that we can't not feel anger in our mothering particularly with all these pressures that we've just been talking about so i think the first step is around understanding that it's not about getting rid of it that comes from patriarchal motherhood this that place of fear, fear-based parenting is how I often think about it.

14:47So actually, if we can start to rebel against that, I think it's getting a bit more comfortable with and curious about our anger. Because it's so body-based, there are things that we can do if we're thinking about self-regulation to release it safely. So I always think about the three R's and the first R, thinking about regulation, is release because it's so visceral. I remember one mum saying to me that she threw the baby monitor when she flipped her lid because she needed that release and then the baby monitor broke and so then becomes quite an expensive form of release. So thinking about how can you get that release and often what we need to do is we need to use our body.

15:37So with this, you know, we know that anger triggers our internal alarm system, flooding our brain and our body with those stress hormones. Our brain is telling our body, I'm not safe. You need to prepare for action now. So whether it's doing 10 star jumps, get your kids involved, get your child involved if you can, running on the spot, moving your body in some way, then what that does is releases your body from that threat-activated contraction. So it allows your body to understand, you know, flight-freeze is meant to be followed by a burst of activity. I imagine whatever you are doing that has put you into that state to start with, if you suddenly go to your kids, and ten star jumps, everyone, you know, and everyone's suddenly star jumping, it instantly diffuses it for everyone anyway because mum's acting a bit funny.

16:30What's she doing? That's funny. Let's join in. Do you know what I mean? So it instantly takes the air out of it, if you like. It definitely does. And I think that's where humour as well, if you can manage it, you won't always be able to manage it. Say, oh, if you don't get your shoes on, then I won't be able to sing you my funny song or I'll do you a funny dance. If you can show me, you can get your shoes on. And like you say, it diffuses it. So humour is a really big one if we can manage it. But with that release, if you have to throw something, kind of thinking about, well, could you have something to hand, just a cushion, something soft that will give you that release without destroying something or something that might feel scary to your kid.

17:14but with all emotions we need them to move through our body and they're designed to be temporary and once we can acknowledge them and let them move through us then they can go off and we don't need to kind of keep them stuck in our body you know when you've started to bring your thinking brain back online again with that self-regulation the second one is reconnect with anger a lot of the time it's expressed outwards and actually what we want to do is focus it inwards and do a bit of a u-turn where we can then go inward of it and do that okay what's going on for me now just that checking in so for that I find a practice called RAIN which comes from Tara Brack really helpful it's another acronym I'm afraid so the first star is recognize so just recognize what's happening maybe just putting a hand on your heart noticing I'm feeling really pissed off I'm feeling really fed up so just by noticing and naming your feelings we know that is so so helpful for dampening down the emotional temperature and by saying I'm feeling angry rather than I'm angry is a way to help separate you from the emotion because you're not your anger you're not defined by your anger so it helps you be less identified with it and then the second letter of rein is to allow so just allowing that feeling and so much of the time mums invalidate their anger punish themselves shame themselves for even feeling it so how can you give yourself permission and just say it I give myself permission to feel really pissed off for five minutes ten minutes And then the I is for investigate.

19:02Where am I feeling it in my body? Have I got a really hot head? Mums talk about their heads feeling really hot. I don't know how you feel it in your body. Yeah, your head, chest, tummy. I feel it everywhere, Caroline. Is that normal? Yeah. Is there just so much anger that it's everywhere? It's so, it is totally normal. But that just shows how physical it is, right? Yeah. feels so electric in our bodies focus on what is that sensation is it a really tight chest is it a whoosh coming up from my stomach you know what does it feel like and then the end of rain is nurture so what compassion can I bring to myself what wise message if that feels difficult you know if my best friend was with me now and I was saying to her I'm really really struggling What might she say to me?

19:58And then once we've done that U-turn and focused in with us a bit, we are then able to get in touch with what do I need? It might be that you need to open the window and just breathe in some fresh air. If that's all you can manage, you've got a baby and a toddler with you and it's difficult to get out. Obviously, if you can get out for a walk on your own, great. It may be if you're having lots of hot moments like this that that anger is a sign that you need some extra support. So that might look like talking to your partner, letting them know like these are situations I find really tricky, I need a bit of extra help here.

20:37It might be talking to a therapist, it might be calling a helpline, just understanding those human needs for support, for understanding they need attending to. Yeah, I really liked what you said about separating yourself from the feeling. I am doing a play at the moment and one thing the character says because she has these blackouts but she gets told what she does in her alcohol induced rages is she says but that's not who I am I know it's not and I think as mums part of it is understanding that those times where we feel it that's not who we are those are just moments that we have to move through I think it's good to say it out loud actually and to also remind mums that your child doesn't see you as anger.

21:26And actually, you know, it is one part of you and there is so much more. You've got many other parts which your child will see every day. And so if anyone's listening and they are feeling just drowning in shame because they lost their temper with their kid this morning, I think it's really coming back to what are the other parts of myself that my child sees on a daily basis. And then, of course, the third R is repair. I guess this is the whole theme of our conversation, really. That's the bit that gets missed, the repair that we can do with ourselves. And in order to repair authentically with our child, I would say we really need to learn how to do that with ourselves.

22:13And for many of us, we weren't taught how to do that. We may never have seen the repair. if we lived with both parents growing up there was a lot of conflict or nothing was said but you felt the tension but you never saw them say sorry to each other or the reconciliation so doing the u-turn and i think with our children i think if you have a baby and you flipped your lid maybe you've been woken multiple times in the night and you're feeling cumulatively exhausted and not feeling that supported. These are all very valid contexts. And I think repairing with your baby looks like soft words, cuddles, gentle touch, singing, where they may not be verbal, but they take in that love and those gentle words from you.

23:02If your child is more verbal or they're able to understand, even before they are verbal, I think you can apologise for your behaviour. I think it's good to name it, say, I'm sorry I shouted and got cross. Can we talk about it? And taking responsibility for that part in it, for your behaviour, asking them how they felt. Maybe they felt scared or frightened in that moment, giving them a bit of space to talk if they're ready. And I think readiness is important too. So timing's important. you may have had a really difficult interaction with a child say after a really stressful morning at drop off or before drop off it's okay to wait until later it's about you both being ready and when you're talking about your own anger and apologizing for your behavior you're also giving the message that we're all human and we all feel anger it's okay to feel it it's helping them understand that it's not a scary or dangerous emotion and actually it's what we do with it that's important so you can also begin as your child you know depending on their age obviously but you can begin to let them know when you flip your lid what you do and and sort of name it say it out loud you can say I'm just feeling really frustrated I'm feeling really angry right now or I can feel the anger you know I can feel myself getting angry I'm just going to get a glass of water and take a breath and then you're sort of modeling that for them just teaching those emotional literacy skills is incredibly powerful we asked the happy mum happy baby community to send us some questions so one person has asked how do i get heard by my partner i've told him he doesn't understand even when he says he does so there's no change that's got to be hard isn't it when you've come to the realisation of what you need and you voice it, which I imagine for some people takes a lot of courage to actually kind of go, we need to change, this is what I need.

25:10And then for it not to be met with understanding the other side has got to be a bit of a kick in the teeth. Yeah, I think that is really hard. I think first it's worth acknowledging that having a baby, having young children can put such a strain on the couple relationship. You know, we're directing all this energy and resource and attention to this new little person. And I think it can feel really hard to regroup and negotiate a new relationship with your partner when you feel like your identity is under threat. It is challenging. It would be helpful if that was talked about more, more openly.

25:48So often with couples, the anger can be a response to the injustice. So this mum, I don't know why, what her contacts are, but let's just say a common one that I see is feeling angry in response to the injustice around the inequality of the parenting load, where the mum is just picking up the bulk of the parenting load. And I wonder sometimes if underneath that anger, there's real vulnerability there, particularly for women who have really been taught those ideas about femininity, you know, to be good, to be self -sacrificing, to be nurturing, to be prioritizing others' needs over her own. the idea of asking for help or voicing her needs making a request of her partner there can be real fears there underneath around am I deserving of that and so that's something that I think needs a bit of unpacking and thinking about when you talk with your partner about your feelings and actually what you want and not only want but need, there has to be trust that if you do do that, everything won't just fall apart.

27:03And so that's hard when actually there's strain between you and perhaps a bit of communication breakdown. And you may each have different anger styles influenced by your own experiences growing up, something that we rarely talk about on those early dates. Yeah. What does your anger look like? Yeah. And what are the messages that you learn about anger growing up? Yeah. I mean, it's something we can't, you know, do it justice here. And it is something that I try to scaffold those conversations in my course. What I see is two quite common styles in women that come up, which are either silent submission, where we swallow the anger.

27:49so we're you know in that effort to be nice or we lash out and we approach intensely with blaming criticism so then we're kind of a bitch or labeled a nag and then we might emotionally distance so these are anger styles that we can put our anger energy into that they don't serve us in the long run and I think actually these are styles that can provoke our partner's behavior or reinforce our partner's behaviour and sort of maintain the status quo. By bringing some understanding to your anger, that's a way of bringing some change. Yeah. The next question is, how do I keep my cool when overstimulated?

28:30I have a new baby and a three-year-old. I went to the soft play the other day, Caroline, and I cannot tell you how bonkers it was. It was like a rave. So not only is it really overstimulating because there's loads of kids screaming, but we're literally, it's like I'm on the dance floor, but I'm not. And it took me 25 minutes to get a coffee to even be awake to be in this place. And that's when you're outside, you know, never mind all the other toys in the house that make noise and all the screaming that happens. And it is, there's just so much going on all the time. Feeling overstimulated is a heavy context, I think, that impacts every mother.

29:08and I think if you identify as neurodivergent, highly sensitive, deeply feeling or maybe you manage a health condition you may feel more easily overloaded and that can obviously create stress and mean that your emotional battery drains quickly and you're quicker to snap and lose your temper. There's no sort of one quick fix but I think a combination of things can help starting with are you meeting your basic needs do you need to have some water do you need to stop and have a cup of tea do you need to go to the toilet basic needs for me I needed to eat a sandwich when my children were really small and make sure I was fed and sometimes it meant that I was delayed getting to to one of them but actually I knew that if I was resourced that would help me well that's the thing is it because it feels like there's a constant list of things that you're trying to work your way through.

30:06But I guess it's sidestepping that list and going, but what's for me? What is it that I need? Oh, I need a couple, you know. So don't just keep going because actually that list is never ending. You're never going to get to the end of that list and therefore to you. You've got to sidestep it and then be able to get back onto it. 100 % just try not to keep going. And of course, when we're feeling more and more overstimulated, then that's when we then might keep going because we're in our threat system. So basic needs, meeting those, grounding yourself as you need. So that might be the 5-4-3-2-1 technique.

30:43So naming the space around you. You can do it silently to yourself. We can say it out loud. Five things that you can see, four things that you can hear, three things that you can touch, two things that you can smell. I always encourage mums to have a bit of a self-soothing toolkit with them. And so you might have an essential oil that you find really comforting. in that bag and so that's something you can smell just to ground yourself and to feel comforted and then one thing that you can taste and if you haven't got a drink to hand you can imagine what that favorite drink is and sometimes it's not that easy to step away you know you've got a baby maybe your baby's sleeping on you they're napping on you or you're feeding and then you've also got your toddler maybe you're trying to cook dinner at the same time and it's the end of the day and you're feeling pretty knackered anyway.

31:36So I think it's about how can you stay anchored in the storm. So a really nice idea is to have a sensory box. It can be sort of the magic box that only comes out in those times of need for you. But it's something that feels like a treat for your toddler. So it might have just some really nice sensory stuff in that box, like a pine cone or stuff that they can take out and explore the texture of to meet their sensory needs. It can also have stuff in it that helps you feel grounded as well. So you could have the essential oil in there. And I think just bringing in this idea that it's about soothing and meeting sensory needs for your toddler, but also for you, that's really important.

32:20Is it sometimes a good idea to get outside and to change location? Because sometimes I felt like, especially early days of motherhood, the idea of going out was even more overwhelming. However, there was something about stepping outside and not being in my four walls that did make me feel calmer. I mean, I would always feel some boost to my mood if I got outside, come rain, shine, snow. And if it is raining, we know cold water activates our soothing system as well. And you just process things differently outside. You know, we know this and if it can be somewhere green, even better. Music. So putting music on to help shift the mood for all of you.

33:05And that includes you. I think if you're feeling very touched out and maybe you're feeding your baby and doing a lot of physical stuff with them. And maybe then you've got toddler climbing all over you. Can you just dampen down the temperature, having a cool flannel just laid across your neck? or just somewhere on your skin to help bring the temperature down and therefore reactivity. And adjusting your posture. So sometimes, you know, when we are becoming more reactive, we clench our jaw and sometimes clench our fists and we sort of curl up, that sort of defensive posture. We might be doing that anyway if we're feeding.

33:45So really consciously opening up your heart centre, just drawing your shoulders back, unclenching your jaw. all of those things can really help and I think also just you know while you've diverted your toddler with the magic box maybe but if they are climbing all over you then I think it's fine to let them know you know mommy just needs space around her body and then that's really connecting with a value for you around bodily autonomy and you know that's something that's important for them to learn too and then finally I would just say trying to build in times for rest during the day which can feel really hard and especially for some of us who weren't taught how to rest when we were younger it can feel like actually slowing down and being still is a real threat to our nervous system it feels really self-indulgent I think that's the thing that I'm trying to tell myself off for you know it's not self-indulgent to sit down and have a coffee it's not self-indulgent to sit on the sofa for five minutes you know what I mean but it's that my mum was always on the go you know it's not been modelled it's not something you know I feel like I've always got to be in a forward motion always got to be doing we end up using doing doing as a way to regulate threat to keep those big scary feelings at bay so we end up bouncing between our drive system you know which is where we're doing doing doing and our threat system with time and practice there are things that we can be doing to actively turn on that system and i guess one of them is just that kind self-talk you know I give myself permission to just sit for five minutes and savour my cup of tea yeah yeah um another question that got sent in this is the this is the final question uh they said getting everyone ready and out the door on time seems impossible and puts me in a really foul mood first thing how can I stop feeling like a failure every morning ah been there yeah we've all been there haven't we carolyn i have everything in piles every child's uniform is out and ready my own clothes are out in a pile i get up at quarter past six to make sure i can have my own shower and have a cup of coffee before everyone wakes up i might even have breakfast before everyone wakes up just so it's done all the bags are lined up and ready to go still we're leaving 10 15 minutes late life happens and best laid plans like best laid plans i know And every time that happens, I would say you're human and forgive yourself.

36:18And I mean, one thing I would say is if someone, her mum says she's constantly feeling like a failure, it does make me think, well, perhaps it's worth highlighting burnout. And, you know, characteristics of burnout are emotional exhaustion, feeling that sense of failure, as well as being a bit distant, a bit detached from your kids. So I'm always curious when I start working with a mum is, you know, what space do you have for you and what respite do you have? Who's supporting you? Who are your sources of support? And I think it can feel really difficult to carve out that space. In a way, that's the whole tenet for your happy mum, happy baby, because if we can't look after ourselves, you know, We need to be able to do that to be a resource to our children, but also, I think, for the sake of our own sanity and self-esteem.

37:13And celebrate the little wins. So instead of kind of thinking about, well, we were late or we left the house ten minutes later than we should have done, what about the fact that everyone was dressed just about, they were fed in a good enough way? I guess finally just thinking about doing that U-turn with the anger, just getting curious about those fears of being late which interestingly I will carry far more than Tom will so the way that each the the partnership if you're in a partnership kind of works and how that feeling manifests in each of you like Tom is is kind of like oh we were late a few times you know that was that wasn't that great whereas I'm like come on I like being everywhere early whereas you know there's just especially if it's in a school run there's so many different components that need to be figured out and worked through before you actually get out the door so much I mean now I'm really curious to ask but obviously we all grow up with you know what was modeled to us about being on time or not and what anxiety has created in us by being late and also I think are there fears around being late of possible judgment from others oh absolutely Absolutely.

38:29Tom doesn't care. Whereas I'm like, no, you know, I don't want to be the one getting in trouble with the head teacher or the, you know, it's that people please a part of me. I don't want to be getting it wrong or seeming like I don't have it under control. But the reality is that there are three kids that get out the door, you know, we'll try our best and that's all I can offer. Yeah, four human beings, including you. That's true. I mean, there's no mean feat. But I was up and ready at seven, Caroline. I was ready to go at seven. Well, yeah, therefore, by nine, I would say, you're going to be moving out your window of tolerance.

39:05Exactly that. Because you've been out for a long time. Yeah. We might have this real desire to conform, but actually, if we throw out that whole frame of patriarchal mother law, we rebel against it, we become these mother outlaws where we break the rules a bit. Okay, we're late, but maybe we all had a bit of a calmer morning. And if both the things are important to you in that it is important to you that you're not late and having a slower, calmer or calm enough morning, then it's what can I put in place to really look after myself in that? So it might be no playtime until everyone's eating their breakfast or leaving some extra time to get shoes on, coats on, putting some music on to get your child motivated.

39:49That's always a good one. Or some soothing music for you and then making an intention to to ground yourself and to soothe yourself along the way so that you can feel as resourced as possible to do this hard task of trying to get everyone ready. Caroline we end the podcast with you completing three sentences. The first one is being a mum means. Getting in touch with our shadow side, understanding that we all have difficult spiky parts of ourselves anger is often one of those that come along with the more acceptable parts and understanding that with mothering comes the emotional push pull and when we can start to understand that and make room for that then I think it allows for a lot more spaciousness and self-forgiveness next sentence is if I could tell you one thing it would be I think it would be to understand the importance of repairing with yourself the importance of the repair and don't miss yourself out in that learn how to do it we can learn how to do it I guess connected to that anyone who's listening to our conversation today understanding and acknowledging that we all have as mothers this rucksack full of shame and self-blame and it can get really heavy and we need to just pause along the way and unpack it a bit and I think our anger calls us to do that unpacking.

41:25And finally I'm happy when? When I'm walking my dog, snuggling with my kids, swimming in a lake. All the lovely things. Caroline before you go you run courses don't you? You run courses and you've also got a new book out yeah my book is not so new but I do run anger courses and I've recently launched my self-paced anger course which means that mothers can do it in their own time at their own pace and they also are invited to a Q &A with me because I think actually having a collective space to to make sense is really important and important for our healing as well yeah that's amazing thank you so much it's been really enlightening and and brilliant chatting to you thank you so much thank you it's been an absolute pleasure i kind of suspected it would be so thank you so much for having me thank you very much

42:33Thank you.