Why do I feel so lonely? Parenting SOS with Michelle Kennedy

0:01Coming up on Happy Mum, Happy Baby, Parenting SOS. Gee, I couldn't have said it better, right? That feeling of I need to fit in, I need to conform is the exact reason that we don't say I feel lonely because if no one else is saying it, you don't say it. I remember having him and feeling like, wow, everyone has lied to me. Motherhood is messy and actually it's not happy all the time and I felt like there was something wrong with me and I definitely felt myself sort of pull away from people. From a generational point of view, we are the loneliest generation. We're lonelier than our mothers. They were lonelier than theirs.

0:39But it really is continuing to compound.

0:47Hello and welcome to another episode of Happy Mum, Happy Baby Parenting SOS. Today we're talking about something that so many mums experience but often find it really difficult to admit. Loneliness. A staggering 94 % of mothers are impacted. That's according to research this year from networking app Peanut. So how do we reach out, build community and find our village in those moments we need it most? Someone who knows a thing or two about this is Michelle Kennedy, the brilliant founder of Peanut. Hello, Michelle. Hello. How are you? I'm all right. How are you? I'm good. Now, you've been on here before, but we were in the studio.

1:24You've been on this before, you know, actually talking about you as a mum and your experience. Yeah. But today we're talking about a topic that is actually really important to you and why you started Peanut in the first place. Yeah. I mean, the truth of the matter is, it's a very uncomfortable thing to admit at any age that you feel lonely. No one wants to raise their hand and say, actually, I feel lonely. Sometimes it takes you a while to even identify that's what the feeling is. Right. You kind of are in this period of time where you know that you can see other people together. and on top of that you have a long period of time at home where maybe you actually haven't even heard your own voice all day let alone the voice of another adult so even if you have heard your own voice it's in a slightly different high-pitched or baby voice and all of a sudden you're like do I can I hear my own voice and what does that sound like again so sometimes it takes a while to actually understand what you're feeling is lonely and then on top of that the admission of that that takes some reconciling because I think that comes with a feeling of guilt I shouldn't feel lonely look at this perfect baby I'm so lucky and a little bit like I don't want to feel lonely that's not very cool or I shouldn't feel like that at my age or what am I doing wrong that means that no one else feels this way.

2:52So I think it's, there's so many layers to loneliness. When you have a baby, I think you go through such a massive change, a life change. You know, many of us will be out working with people all the time. And all of a sudden, it's you and your baby and the world that you knew suddenly stops. Totally changes. And you're meant to know what you're doing. Yep. So the fear of getting that wrong, or admitting that you don't know what you're doing, means that you feel lonelier again. So there's like all of these compounding issues where it's it's also quite confusing because it is absolutely possible to feel the most elated you've ever felt because you've got this beautiful, wonderful moment and the most frightened and the most isolated and the most frustrated.

3:36All of those things are possible at the same time. And so for some reason, it's it's not something that we've ever been able to really say. And I think that The problem actually, and as the research shows, it's actually just getting worse. Really? Yeah. I think that from a generational point of view, we are the loneliest generation. We're lonelier than our mothers. They were lonelier than theirs. But it really is continuing to compound. Why do you think that is? Because in so many ways, like with, you know, apps and social media and stuff, in some ways we are more connected, but not in a physical way.

4:11Is that why? Is it because, you know, we can use those apps to meet up with people, But if we're just using, you know, the tech, is it how important is that actually we use it to get into a room with someone? Listen, the truth of the matter is you can feel as connected as you like via apps, by doing things, by looking at people. But unless you're seeing people in real life, unless you're having that human connection, it is not going to really solve the issue. It might take you part of the way, but it won't take you the whole way there. And I think that why are we here and why are we like this?

4:44we've really changed how we live we don't live how generations before us lived when you live next door to your mom around the corner from your sister you know your child was the entire streets child because everyone kind of looked after and the kids were all playing out on the street and everyone knew and was keeping nine that doesn't exist anymore plus we live completely differently so we live in these kind of very secular small boxes we don't live in expansive community areas is the community element of how we live is really eradicated so when you start to add all of those things together what you have are people who are trying to live up to expectations and live a certain way but have none of the communal support in order to feel supported to get answers to find reassurance you know even even when we think about the definition of what an influencer is in generations gone by guess who was the influencer it was mum she was the one who knew the right builder she knew who you needed to go to to get the seamstress she knew you know who was single and who should be seeing each other that was the role of mum and I think that actually we've really lost all of those kind of um societal roles or we or they've changed without any of the infrastructure changing along with us I wonder if there's part of us almost shutting down because Because we have this expectation that you talked about, which I think is driven a lot by social media and these standards that we sort of put on ourselves, which means that when we are out and about, it's almost a performative layer.

6:20You know what I mean? It's kind of like it's like it's the mums that you go, come on, darling, we don't do that. You know, we don't do that at home. You know, it's that kind of. And you know how lost that mum is actually in that moment when you hear that voice. But I wonder if sometimes we are so hard on ourselves and find it so hard to show anything other than perfect, whether that's online, whether that's out and about, which means actually that we just find ourselves isolating ourselves more and more and more because we can't bear to be out of the situation. Even though we feel lonely, the pressure and the overwhelm of getting out and maybe our baby crying, maybe, you know, our toddler having a tantrum.

6:58It just feels like such a massive hurdle to overcome that we're just like, well, we shall stay indoors. Gee, I couldn't have said it better. Right. That feeling of like, I need to fit in. I need to conform is the exact reason that we don't say I feel lonely. because if no one else is saying it you don't say it and more than that if you then don't see all your different versions of motherhood represented you don't see yourself in any of those stories you keep your own version very quiet and that is very isolating and very lonely so if you're a single mom and you're living a single mother experience and you don't see other women living a single mother experience you don't share yours because that makes you different and that's isolating if you are someone who lives with your extended family you live with your in-laws you live with your wider family and you don't see other women who are living in that same situation again it's very isolating because your feeling and experience is totally different so we have to tell loads of stories of being able to be in a room or in a house full of people but still feel lonely.

8:09Absolutely. I mean, imagine, and you've got all these people and, you know, for example, if you're in a situation where perhaps actually the relationship you have with your in-laws and extended family is not perfect, but that is how you're living. Well, that's very, very isolating. So I think that the challenge is making sure that we distinguish between what is perfection and almost what is editorial. That's okay. We don't look at a magazine. That's fine. We like the curated we like the editorial we like the highlights yeah and they should exist too but also knowing that there is a whole other layer and that's the real layer and those are the real stories and they're the stories that we need to amplify and tell more so that every woman sees themselves in those stories and says oh actually i yeah it's not i'm not different oh it's fine i can remember having buzz so my eldest who's now 11 and just started secondary school i can I remember having him and feeling like, wow, everyone has lied to me.

9:09You know, motherhood is messy and actually it's not happy all the time. And I felt like there was something wrong with me. And I definitely felt myself sort of pull away from people, but also feel really lonely. And I, you know, most of my work back then, I write books. I was alone most of the time, but I was on my own in a world of characters. Now you're on your own with a baby, but you can't see past the tasks of the day that are never ending. you know and it's very very different and I can remember talking in a in a really honest way back then and it being met with you know we people don't talk about motherhood like that and then you see a whole spike of other people doing it and that's why this podcast exists but it seems like we are constantly taking a step forward but then there are new generations coming through who it's just not reached so you're literally you're getting more and more people going but why do I feel like this?

10:00Why am I lonely? Why do I feel like I'm the only one? And it's because we just maybe don't talk about it enough across generations. It's exactly right. What happens is you have the kind of trailblazers, right? And someone comes out and says, actually, I'm just going to say no, it's not okay. This is how I'm feeling. This is the reality. And it can be wonderful and the worst all in the same hour, let alone in the same day, right? And then that doesn't become the good social currency anymore and then we start to see these highlights these are the standards now this is what we're and so that fades new standards appear and so the women coming through they they never saw that um and i think that the responsibility that we actually all have is to share some honesty honesty doesn't mean misery and there is a distinction because that's I think a lot where people say oh god you know being so honest no honest means it was incredible and this was absolutely awful and this bit was terrifying and this bit was the funniest thing that's ever happened and sharing that whole thing because the duality of motherhood is that it's so many different things all in one day yeah and we expect women to go into that hospital and you walk out with that baby in that car seat and you don't know what you're doing i remember standing with finn and i was like i actually don't even know what to do i don't know what to do you are in what is your role like what's going on now yeah and i remember my husband taking a picture of me and the the face that i'm pulling is is absolute terror but i you know and it's such a weird photo I don't even like looking at it because I remember the feeling it gives me like a weird feeling in my stomach because I was like I now have to take you home and I put him on the table and I looked at him and I was like what do I do now yeah what do I do now and I think so many women feel like that and we don't help them and support them and I think that's why we're seeing these scary statistics around loneliness yeah absolutely and also on top of that when people are reaching out, generally speaking, people are reaching out to cuddle baby, see baby, how is everything?

12:21And if they do even ask you about the birth, it's really like, how was the birth? But really what they're thinking is, can I just get a hold of that baby? And you're standing there. And actually the one thing for me that I didn't want to do was let go of him. I actually didn't want someone else to hold him. But what I needed was for someone to say, let me take him and you do X, a bit of direction, let me take him and you go and shower. Let me take him and you go and lie down for 10 minutes, whatever it might be. Which would have happened years ago, generations ago, when your mum was around the corner or your nan, you know, would be able to pop in.

12:57Other people would kind of take over. And I know that, you know, nowadays I'm sure many of us kind of go, God, they just came in and they took. But actually, I love it. I love it. Even now. We came back from holiday. My mum was here. I'd put a load of washing on. The next thing I know, my mum's done all my washing. And I didn't ask her, but it is. It's having those people in your life that just go, I'm doing it. This is what you're doing because I care for you. You know, and it's so hard for us to kind of go, I need this and to ask people for things. And that's the village, the village that we once lived in.

13:30We all grew up in. Our parents grew up in. that was the norm that's what you had and that is what we don't have anymore we're really expected to be very independent yeah fully functioning very independent you know and then they'll then when we are greeted with a rhetoric of oh yeah but you've all got grandparents who help you with child care and it's like actually many of us don't by the way and if we are lucky enough to have some help with child care thank god because nothing else exists for us because we don't have a child care system that's working properly for for everyone and the expectations are still there like as women we're being expected to contribute economically more than we ever have in any generation gone before and yet nothing's changed in terms of the infrastructure to support us it's like go and have the job earn the money have the baby nothing's going to change though because We're still going to keep society like it was in the 60s.

14:30We just won't have you living like we did in the 60s, for example. What we really need is to have the power or the confidence to ask for help. Because I think we're not good at that. I don't feel able to ask for help. I don't even ask for help at work. So I'm not good at asking for help. And yet, again, generationally, of course, we always had people around us asking for help. it was very normal to share to share the responsibility and the burden and the load and now it's so formal that we might call that you know oh we've got a a nanny share or we've and it's like that's amazing but actually all you're doing is just trying to build community bonds that don't really exist anymore and then on top of that we've got a lot of noise so if you've got children who are not at the infant stage you've got the whatsapp groups you've got the class emails you've got all of this kind of additional kind of labor that we're doing we're working everywhere we're working in the home to manage those lives we're working with baby to try and understand what they need we're working to try and understand ourselves we need to keep our relationship going we need to be a good daughter we and there's so many layers to the expectations that we have I think that is where being able to say I need help yeah completely it bursts loneliness because guess what we actually at the heart of humanity we like helping other people yeah if anyone asked you for help you wouldn't be like oh my god my pleasure yeah in fact gee I remember seeing you at an event yeah and I was a really low I was having a wobble I was having a really bad time with Finn there were loads of people around us and you just sat down you were like tell me about it and we spoke and you were so it was an amazing moment where I'll get emotional but when I when I left you I was like she didn't have to do that and you did and that for me is exactly the point of the village and having people in your life that care and no one but no one if they see you in need is going to be like I'm actually at an event I'm busy they're going to be like sit down tell me about it I want to help you but don't you think there's also that thing of by by being there and helping someone else, and I feel emotional, you kind of, you help yourself in return.

16:51Do you know what I mean? It's kind of, it's a loop. Of course, because do you know what? Maybe it helps you understand something that you went through that was similar. Or maybe it helps you feel less alone. Or maybe it helps you feel that you did something, like you've had a rubbish day, but you did something that actually meant something today. Any of those things. It's funny because I think when you're in, when you're in a moment or in a situation with your child you can feel really out of your depth then when you speak to someone else who's in that inner a situation being able to give not advice but talk about it in a way that you know is helpful that can come back at you in a way of it's i am a good mom yeah do you know what i always say we say it a lot at work everyone is an expert in their own field yeah and you just don't know that you are and it's really easy to be like oh I don't know or oh god I'm winging it yeah you are and we all are but you actually are an expertise and your expertise might be in giving really practical advice or your expertise might be in the fact that you're actually just a really good listener and you just listen and all your expertise might be the fact that you're not really sure how to react to things things make you a bit uncomfortable but you know what you'll always be practical to get out the house let's go let's do something let's get there and all of those things are so important but you know what you can't do you can't do it on your own yeah and you have to have people around you you have to start to build those connections in order to have that experience it's probably a good time to start asking you your most asked questions so on parenting sos i ask you your three most most asked questions.

18:38The first one is describe what the phrase it takes a village means to you. Well, it takes a village actually is a, the phrase is it takes a village to raise a child. Yeah. But for me, it takes a village to raise a mother. I had never been a mother until Finn landed in my arms. I didn't know what that meant. I didn't know what that looked like. And I learned by osmosis. I learned by seeing some things while I was, you know, kind of spying on people in the coffee shop to see what they were doing. I learned things by watching around me, by watching him, by seeing how I felt about things. And I couldn't do it on my own in my bedroom, in my bed all day.

19:23And it's very hard to get out of bed in the early days. You can just about get them in and out of that crib to carry on feeding them. And then there's another feed. And then you've gone to the toilet and they're awake again. It's very, very hard. but in order to raise you as a mother you have to be connected and seeing other people so for me it takes a village means it takes a village to raise a mother next question how has the village evolved and have we become more isolated we've kind of touched it but yeah the village can exist yeah it's just diy now that's how and i think generationally we we were born into the village We lived in the village.

20:02It was around us. And now I think we have to help ourselves. We have to make it ourselves. And you can do it. It's daunting. And it feels and also village feels huge. When I say the word village, I feel like people must be like, village, village can be one. You need one person in your village to make a massive, massive change. Well, the third question, which is probably nicely led on to is how should mums build their village? do you know what it's so hard to say it and not have a reaction but i'm gonna say you have to be brave be the one to do the smile do the wave ask someone for a coffee do that thing it's i am a very socially awkward person if i can do it you can do it you can say those things the first person who made a friend for me as a mom was my mom she's not shy she's irish and so it's just out there and saw another woman in a coffee shop near me and started talking to her.

21:00Mira became my absolute lifeline. And had my mum not done that, my experience would have been infinitely worse. So do it. Do the one thing. And it's scary, but it can totally transform your life. I used to, even if I wasn't going to, you know, make a lifelong friend out of it, which came out of sort of baby groups and stuff, actually. But if I was out and about in parks, I couldn't help myself but say something to another mum. Do you know what I mean? It's that thing of I just need to, you know, I need to reach out in some way. Yeah, we're connected. It's actually what you said at the start when the mum uses the funny voice and you know what they're really going through.

21:43It's when you're in the supermarket and there's a toddler on the floor having an absolute meltdown. And actually, you don't even want to look at the kid because all you want to do is squeeze the mum's arm and be like, it's okay I'm like I'm here with you and it's that feeling like you just taking that step you don't know what it will mean to that other person either I guess the really important thing is to get out get out to you know join the baby groups go to the coffee shop and if you see someone don't feel like you can reach out and speak to someone if you can it is a really good goal I used to set it for myself yeah one time in the day to leave the house and it's it's not easy and actually the more you're inside the more you're inside it's it's a really vicious cycle but if you can do one thing to make you leave the house amazing that's what you need to do and that's how the village that's how important the village is because I tell you what you might let yourself down but you'll never let someone else down you'll never do it yeah you'll go because you can't bear the thought of her standing at the top of the street waiting for you to go for a light walk around the block yeah it's also that um I can remember someone saying to me years ago that sometimes that feeling of you know when it's all overwhelming the house the the thought of getting out can be terrifying and just like this isn't working in here how on earth is it going to work out there when people can see me failing yeah but actually getting out of the house it almost feels like a reset a lot of the time do you know what if you if you're anything like me this is what I used to do i had a pair of boots you could pull on like an ug yeah a baseball cap and a hoodie with a zip because you can even put pajamas that's fine that can all go over the top of pajamas but then you can just get out yeah and once you're out and you're walking you just need something to make you feel a little bit different put a podcast on swipe on peanut doesn't matter what But go and do the thing and it will change.

23:39It will lift that element of feeling like the loneliest girl in the world. Yeah, absolutely. I'm going to talk to you quickly about It Takes a Village, the book that you've put together. So the book is called It Takes a Village and Other Essential Truths About New Mothers. I have read it and I absolutely loved it. And I love the fact that like with Peanut, you have brought so many different mothers and their experiences together. it's beautifully woven when you know kind of going or this person over this but it's someone in america really far away but you fuck you've realized that we're actually really connected in what we are all trying to do which is just bring up happy children but not you know cause ourselves so much damage in the process and also looking after ourselves i absolutely loved it i think you've done an amazing job with it thank you very much jay how does it feel knowing that that is going to be a further thing to help connect women?

24:34I think that the book was really about curating some of the amazing stories that we see. I'm really privileged in the position I sit in. I get to see what happens on Peanut every day. I get to see these amazing stories. I get to see what these women do for each other and the advice they share and the honesty that they bring and the vulnerability and the humour. And I get to see it every day. And so really the book was about curating those stories so that we make sure every woman sees herself all the different stories whether that's culturally whether that's where you live whether that's how you choose to parent all of those stories have to be captured so it's not a book about baby it's really only a book about mom yeah and it's just about that kind of conception to you know the first year and I think the most important thing for me is I can dip in and out of it you don't have to read that cover to cover if you're in month three great go there if you're at the start again you're thinking about trying to conceive again go there and so it was really about dipping in and out and bringing experts i'm not an expert that's not the bit that i do so making sure that there is someone who is an expert who can say it's normal yeah it's gonna here's what's happened here factually is what's happening to your body right now and you should know that and that was really important it's absolutely brilliant.

25:54And it does, I think, even if someone was to hand this book to a new mum, to kind of, even that seeing the fact it takes a village whilst it's being handed over, you're just like, there's a bit of understanding there, even with that. Yeah, honestly, it is, and I think everyone who writes books says this, so, you know, I'm aware it sounds trite, but it's what I wished I'd had when I had Finn. Yeah. Because I really just wanted to know what other women were doing. That's all. Is it normal really just means are you all doing the same as me? And because we all have different types of normal, it was important just to represent that.

26:34I don't think it sounds trite at all. And I think actually great books come from that. There needs to be a purpose for the book. There needs to be a why. And so often I think we find ourselves in moments where you kind of wish you had not a manual, but something to read that was kind of give you give you what you need. so I don't think it sounds trite at all I think there's a reason and books are best when they come from a why The heart, that's true Thank you very much Thank you too We have some questions from the community Someone has said I'm finding it harder as a third time mum Everyone is either a first timer or already has a village Of course that doesn't mean I can't be friends with first time mums It's just we're at different stages Any advice?

27:16Really, really tough um I also experienced something similar when I had Nula got quite a big age gap between my kids so um everyone that I was meeting who was a new mom I was like well my son is six so it felt like quite a different experience so I do understand what that feels like I think that there are some obvious moments right anyone who has more than one child is infinitely going to be more in your boat than someone who's on their first time experience. And there are ways to find those women, Peanut, other products, where you can see that, you know, okay, you're a mum of more than one. So I think that there's nothing wrong with zoning in on someone who has more than one.

27:59And I think actually, again, being out there, being at the groups, being at the football practice, it's amazing how many people you then start to see while you're doing the other clubs. And it's very hard. I appreciate when you've got three and you're doing dance class and football and karate and whatever. And you've got the newborn. I do understand that. But I think just hanging out outside, being in the park, it will amaze you. Like being around people, say yes to the events, go to a peanut meetup. There are women who are in the same position as you. And you don't have to force yourself to be friends with someone who just doesn't quite click.

28:36Who makes you feel, you know, less than, you know. So there can be a first time mum who completely has the same outlook as you or just makes you feel great. Your tribe, your village, whatever it is, it shouldn't be filled with people who make you feel crap. Absolutely. And by the way, they don't all have to look identical, right? Actually, what really makes the world go round is variety, difference, points of difference, celebrating difference. So you don't have to be looking for the exact mirror to you. you can actually just be looking for people who also want to talk about the Kardashians or whatever your thing is.

29:14A nice little break from talking about how much people have slept, basically. That, for example. Yeah. Another question is, how do you navigate a village that is only available outside working hours? Yeah, that one. Listen, there is absolutely nothing like having another woman who is at the same stage as you. It is really, really game changing. And I say that because you might have the most incredible support network. But during the day, 3pm, Wednesday afternoon, lonely as girl in the world. I've been there. I know what it feels like. It is very, very isolating. And a reminder of the life that you used to have, that everyone else is still doing.

29:53Absolutely. And the silence at those moments feels really, really loud. I remember when Finn was going through the like two hour nap. Those days. and you would sit there and I'd be like I who what should I do now because I haven't got anyone to talk to and that is really hard cohort groups groups of women who have babies in the same month that your baby was born in will change your life that is the absolute it's game-changing you'll find them on peanut you'll find them on other products but join that group those women they're the same they're doing the same thing and some of them are you know back in the office and some of them are working at home like you are with your baby and that's what you need yeah and even if those i i think with with people like that as well there's an understanding of what that friendship starts as you know what i mean we are we know that we're in this at the same time and we know what we are to each other yeah but actually i think there's something very special about creating friendships in that time where it's a very different type of vulnerability that you maybe don't actually show anyone else in your life maybe it's not you don't feel like you it's not right to do it there or you don't want to whereas there's something about meeting people in in that time and actually really sharing that just you know creates bonds like no other totally you know it's really hard to explain to someone else who isn't in it at that moment the mundanity right and it feels like a terrible thing to say but it is mundane it can be mundane that by the way it doesn't mean that you don't think that your child is the most incredible thing that's ever existed on earth of course you do but there are moments where you've been doing the same thing the monotony of it yeah and it's quiet and it's boring and you know you need to be with someone else who's in that space because you just need to laugh about it talk about it talk about anything but it and that's what you really need yeah you do it goes back to being brave doesn't it like you said earlier you need to be able to to step out of where you are which I think when you're in it when you're feeling lonely it can be really difficult to kind of take that leap you know it kind of it kind of feeds itself a little bit you know like a depression I guess it kind of it's it's very hard to kind of take that leap and go no I'm going to push myself out and to see where I can make those connections it's it look it's human nature that we avoid any situation where we are likely to get rejection or hurt and we also love routine we're creatures of habit so if you've been doing one thing whether it's good or bad for you you will continue to do that one thing so being brave enough to break that it's extremely hard I'm going to break the routine of like safety and I'm going to put myself in a position where I might be vulnerable for a second like that that's two quite big steps but the reward is so big yeah for doing it breaking the routine and that makes me think of um you know how when they're newborns how you try and get the routine started and you're like so it's very hard to kind of break out of the idea that your baby might be able to sleep somewhere else i can remember setting up a um a chair for like a feeding chair right and my midwife came over or the health visitor and she's like okay but what if you're downstairs what has that huh why would i be anywhere other than right here i'm going to live here for the foreseeable am i not you know but it is hard when in those first few weeks you've kind of set up not that anyone knows what they're doing because i really don't think you do i don't think the baby does i think things are continuously changing then teething happens and that throws everything out the window but it can be very hard to step out of what you have set up to try and make it a little bit easier because you were trying to get control because of the one thing that we can't do is control these little people right they're tiny little people and they have their own agenda and all of a sudden you're like well I can't control anything that's happening with you so the only thing I can control is the little kind of my environment or the way I'm going to approach things or the things that I'm definitely going to do every day yeah the challenge I set for everyone is to say can you make one of those things that you do every day be good for you not just good for baby and that's really hard but if you can again the rewards are so big we can catastrophize uh situations as well you know the idea of going out what if my baby cries what if I need to to to feed feed them and you know what you know or we could there's or what if there's a like there's so many things that come into our heads that can stop us from stepping out the the what if my baby cries is such a like vivid memory because I remember my mum trying to get me to walk to Starbucks.

34:37And I said, what if he cries? And she looked at me like it was the most unbelievable, unreal statement I'd ever made. She looked at me and she went, right. And I said, but then people will think, and she said that he's a baby. But in my head, that isn't what people would think. They would think that I don't know what I'm doing because really what I felt was I don't know what I'm doing. I think that's a generational thing as well. I think so many women our age would go yeah absolutely I felt that and so many women your mum's age probably go well yeah you know what I mean it's such a yeah whereas being held at a different standard putting things on ourselves it makes us go I will you know people will judge people judge me it can make me really anxious now to even think about some of the things that I would think that were going to happen if he did something I must tell you I didn't feel like that with my daughter really those years later I felt much more like if she cries she cries you know and I did feel much more but you know I was a bit older yeah I'd already had Finn he was older I had the app so I already felt like I was seeing the stories the real stories all the time so I think that my experience was much different but that just goes to show how important it is to speak to other women about their experience because then you do start to feel like, okay, I can cope with this.

36:02It's going to be fine. So what's the worst that's going to happen? What's the worst? Yeah. Yeah. Another question. People say always here if you need anything, but they aren't proactive to arrange to meet up. That's hard. Always here. That is hard. If you need anything, just ask. Let me know. Yeah. Let me know what I can do to be helpful. Yeah. I'm here. Terrible one. So, okay, we already said it, but we've got to ask. Yeah. People actually do want to be asked. I had one person, I told my friend this last night, who when I had Finn, she wasn't close. We weren't close. She came to my door and in this little bag, she had a mirror.

36:42She was like, put that next to your bed. You're not going to be able to go to the bathroom to look in the mirror. A mirror. I think there was some cowpole. It was like, they were very like unusual things. Yeah. And she said, I'd like to hold him while you go and have a shower. and I looked at her and I didn't really want to give him and she said I know how to hold a baby for 10 minutes and I went and I had the shower and I came back and she gave me fin back and she left that was it no real conversation nothing really and I was like and she didn't set up a time or anything that she was coming in because that's it as well right if someone says I'll come over at 11 We all know what that's like.

37:25That's a frantic trying to make everything look good. No pressure. Make you look good. Has the baby napped? Has the baby been fed? Because I don't want to get my boob out in front of this person. All these things. Have I got milk? Have I got any biscuits? Can I feed them? Yeah. Can I give you tea? I remember when I had Finn making so many cups of tea for other people. That's weird. Yeah. No. That's weird. Can you go and get me a drink? And by the way, everyone loves to be given a job. Yeah. So this woman coming to my house who was older than me to take my baby to give me direction of what to do to then just leave was absolutely remarkable.

37:59So I think if everyone is saying, let me know how I can help and they don't follow up, you can say it'd be great if you came over tomorrow. It would be really helpful if you could bring me X. I haven't had time to cook this week. If you're making a lasagna and you want to whip me one up, I'd love that. Yeah. Everyone will be delighted to be given a job. Yeah. And you know that that's true because imagine if it was you and someone actually asked you for something they needed. You'd be thrilled. Absolutely. I think we can easily fall into, oh, I won't. You're busy. You know, I won't, you know, I won't.

38:33I won't bother you. Yeah. And what's the worst? They say, I can't come tomorrow. Can I come Wednesday? Yeah. Or can I come tonight? All right. Yeah. Great. Yeah. Absolutely. Do it. Be brave. Put yourself out there. Be brave. and ask for help. And, you know, I know we said at the start of this about loneliness and how we've actually got to go and meet people. But when you are feeling like that is so big, you have to use the things that are there. Use the online communities. Absolutely. Use it knowing that you're using that to get you out. Absolutely. To get you through the dark, long nights. And that's what it's there for.

39:13Yeah. You're never, ever on your own. Even when you feel like the loneliest, you're not on your own. You just have to look. You're not on your own. Michelle, I end the podcast with you completing a couple of sentences. The first one is, if I could tell you one thing, it would be? Do the thing. Be brave. Ask the question. Say hi. Wave. Smile. Do the thing that means that you put yourself out there because the reward is huge. and I'm happy when I'm with my kids I love my kids they're amazing they're so naughty but they're so lovely Michelle I love everything that you do and I love that you have taken your so anyone that doesn't know about you you've taken your expertise in working with apps like Bumble and everything you know about community in that space and you've taken it to mums and that is so wonderful because I know how many mums you've helped in a time where so many feel lonely and depleted and lost.

40:17You've really, you know, you've given people a way of connection, you know. So I hope everyone just keeps building on what you've already given them. Thank you so much. Love you. Love you. It's been a pleasure. Thank you. Thank you.

40:43Thank you.