Alan Cumming: “I allow people to be abusive!” How to build self-worth and say no

0:00Fearne Cotton: Hello, a massive welcome back to Happy Place with me, Fearne Cotton. This is the show that looks back in order to move forward. Today I'm chatting to Alan Cumming. I mean, truly, my dad told me I was worthless and my mum told me I was precious. And of course, you want to believe your mum more. I am a strong person and I function very well for someone who has had an abusive childhood, I think. But it's still with me. Sometimes I can get triggered by certain personalities. I will allow people to be, well, abusive. I had those things happen to me that I am acknowledging were really damaging and could have ended it for me.

0:42But I, yeah, I persevered because I believed in myself, I think.

0:46Fearne Cotton: Do you know what? This was one of those chats that me and the Happy Place team were so buzzed about. We're all huge Alan fans. And weirdly, we recorded this one in the evening. We very rarely do that. We're all early birds at Happy Place. We're morning people. So we may bash out three Happy Place podcast episodes in a day, but we'll usually start at like nine. This one, I think we started recording at like six or seven in the evening. Really weird for me, but sort of lovely. It was almost like we were on a night out with Alan Cumming. And it had a different feel to it for me, certainly. We were having like a late night.

1:19Fearne Cotton: It wasn't late night, but for me, it was cheeky chat. And he had, he brought such good energy to the studio in a fun, like little behind the scenes gossipy way. And again, a really lovely down to earth way. He was just so chilled, so lovely, turned up with one person, just so beautifully normal, but hung around to have a little chat afterwards. We were gossiping about all sorts of things. And then me and the Happy Place team who work on the podcast went out for a little cheeky drink after because we were in such great spirits. What was the weird drink that I had, Mills? I had some like weird, did it have rhubarb in it or sage or something really off the beaten track.

2:05Fearne Cotton: Anyway, I had some super weird cocktail that got me pissed in like one drink. I was like hammered with one sip of this drink. I blame Alan. It's all Alan's fault. Now, this chat with Alan, as I'm sure you can imagine, was a riot. This is a man with a lot of hilarious stories. He has lived a life. But he was also really gracious in sharing the stories that he tells himself about himself. A feeling of worthlessness, which you might be surprised to hear, is something that comes up a lot in his personal life. And he also talked about the ways that his new Channel 4 series, Tiptoe, brought up some bloody raw memories from his own past.

2:50Fearne Cotton: It's written by Russell T. Davis, so it is obviously particularly gritty.

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3:58I sold my car in Carvana last night. Well, that's cool.

4:01Fearne Cotton: No, you don't understand. It went perfectly. Real offer, down to the penny. They're picking it up tomorrow. Nothing went wrong. So, what's the problem? That is the problem. Nothing in my life goes to smoothie. I'm waiting for the catch. Maybe there's no catch. That's exactly what a catch would want me to think. Wow, you need to relax. I need to knock on wood. Do we have wood? Is this table wood? I think it's laminate. Okay, yeah, that's good. That's close enough. Car selling without a catch. Sell your car today on Carvana. Pick up fees may apply. Alright, let's do it. Here's the show.

4:54Fearne Cotton: Alan, you legend coming. How are you? Pretty good. A little exhausted, but I'm here for you. I know you are. You're a true pro. Yeah, true pro. So I love a chat, but I'm in my general demeanor of life right now. I've had a crazy week. You've been in how many continents in the last two days? Well, I was in New York last night. And the night before that, I was in Los Angeles. And two days before that, I was in New York. And two days before that, I was in Aberdeen. I mean, you're in one of those states where time is meaningless. Like, what is it even? What is it? I know. And it's also like I had a 10-minute nap that was brilliant.

5:35Fearne Cotton: Oh, did that work? If I have a nap, I usually feel worse, like groggy. I'm very good at napping and I'm always good. But I can also just think, okay, I thought I was going to have a nap for half an hour. I've only got 10 minutes. I'm going to make it really count. And you can fall asleep that quickly. Wow, I'm so jealous. I can sleep. I always sleep on planes. I always sleep in cars. I sleep on floors and, you know, in dressing rooms and things like that. I just have got, gosh, you've got written a lot of books. I knew you'd written this one because I saw you on telly Oh yeah Oh those ones over there I've written more than that even How many have you written altogether?

6:12Fearne Cotton: 16 Alan Shut up I've got to keep busy I can't sit around No Like you Yes You can't sit around I mean you are always you've just you know said how much you've been travelling recently you are always on the go whether it's it could be TV it could be TV hosting it could be film it could be theatre writing you are prolific in all areas Yes Is that pure drive or is there restlessness? I think it's a combination of things. I mean, I like being busy. I like being eclectic. And I like not ever really overly dwelling on one thing. So I like the sort of lightness and the nimbleness of it and sort of floating through life.

6:55I do. The older I get, I sort of do think, oh, am I, you know, am I really, who am I trying to, I don't know, maybe I'm trying to prove too much or something. I sort of think that of late because, you know, it's like 40 years since I've been working as a professional actor and person. But no, I just actually think I have a lot of, you know, I'm given a lot of opportunities to do things I really like. I maybe am trying to do a little less than I have done or, you know, it's too much right now. But I really enjoy it. Yeah. Yeah.

7:28Fearne Cotton: And that's a gift when you love what you're doing. Oh, my God. Absolutely. I really, you know, it doesn't feel like you forget, I think, that most people in the real world do jobs that they don't really like in order to get money to do what they like in their lives. Yeah. And we do. We get paid to do the thing we really like. So lucky. I know. I know. So lucky. It's an incredible thing when you have friends and they say things about like, oh, well, you know, I'm just doing this. And you think, oh, God, I forgot. That's most people's experience. Yeah, I know. So we are extremely, extremely lucky.

8:03Fearne Cotton: At what point do you think, as a youngster, did you have your heart set on, I think I'm going to enjoy that? Because you don't know. You could watch a film or a TV show or go to a theatre show and think, that's probably amazing. Of course, there's always going to be shit bits, unglamorous bits. But you had an inkling, that's for me. Yeah, I think I sort of thought it wasn't even actually the, you know, going to the theatre or going to seeing. I mean, I think I first liked... the feeling of it it's more about and i do still feel like that i feel like it's the feeling i get and the i like the sort of process of acting or or performing or creating that i really like and you know there's been a big upturn for me in the last sort of couple years in dealing with all the stuff because of the traitors and you know especially this last week in america has been a lot and i have been going to these big things but i actually was thinking gosh you know i All that stuff.

9:02I sort of said this thing like, you know, a little piece of you dies, your soul dies every time you take a selfie and things like that. Because I had a t-shirt once that was really good. It said, even though you like getting a photo taken with a celebrity, celebrities don't necessarily get a photo taken with you. A bit brutal. Sorry. Because I feel like all the detritus of it, sometimes, and especially when you're promoting things, as I am right now, that take, that becomes your job. And that's not really what I wanted to do when I first started. Obviously, you don't know about all that stuff.

9:37Fearne Cotton: And that's more to do with fame, right, than the job. Yes, exactly. And that's bullshit. And that's a totally different thing. When people say, oh, well, that comes with the job, I say, well, no, actually, the job is this over here. And I didn't, you know, it wasn't when I was 20. I wasn't, you know, on the red carpet at the Time 100 list. No, and I think fame meant something very different back then. Absolutely. When I started in the 90s, it was a very different thing. I don't think I understood what it was going into the industry. I kind of thought, oh, you might be known because you're on the TV, but it wasn't a job in itself as I think it is today.

10:09Yes, it's such a, like more, like with the traitors, I spend more time promoting the traitors than I actually do shooting it.

10:17Fearne Cotton: Mad. Yeah. Mad. And that's crazy. Yeah. And also it's just sort of, anyway, I love my job. I really do. and there's some things I like about the I mean I honestly I really I'm not bitching about I mean I am a wee bit on planes and things and people want a photo or like you're in the loo or picking up your dog's poop and just like no not now and I've got much better at just saying I don't want to nice to meet you and also So the thing, what's really good, I've learned, if you said to someone, if I take a photo with you, everyone will see and my entire evening will be taking photos with everyone in this room and they go totally get it.

11:05Yeah. And I think it's really good to sort of just be honest with people. And I'm always nice and kind and stuff like that. But sometimes you just think, I don't want to.

11:12Fearne Cotton: No. And I think that's fair enough. You don't have to. It's not, you know, sometimes people are like, oh, come on. but I actually I don't know that part of it is you know if it's an event and it's a premiere or something absolutely that's what you're there for yeah yeah yeah of course in your life in your real life and I suppose that's why you know the older I've got the more I've got I've sought out sort of places away from it all yes that is so important yeah it's so important you can love your job you can do it as much as you want as long as there is hasn't even got to be balance I don't think I think balance is usually unrealistic I've definitely not got any balance in my life it's most of the time chaotic with work and kids and I've chosen that but if you can have tiny moments for me that is usually solitude I love being on my own totally you like solitude having just having a bath do you know what I mean I love having a bath and I've got this right now I have a little fant I mean so I've got this new well it's not new but we've had the renovations done on this house and I've got I feel like you know if you're lucky enough to have be able to have a house that you can make it the way you want to and for me i've realized what that is is a sanctuary away from everything and i've got this house in scotland where it's a little there's a little pond i call it a lock it's not really a lock it's got an island i call it like a word for a mini lock a lock and a lock and yeah lock and little i've got a sauna i've got a sauna on the banks of it and a little jetty thing so you go in the sauna and you jump in love that to the thing you're like I love that shit.

12:45Like that doesn't take long, but that to me is like, that's my thing. I made it and I thought about it. That's what I wanted to do and I've done it and I love it. My new thing is my sort of trad wife fantasy that I want to, I've got an aga and I want to make gluten-free scones.

13:01Fearne Cotton: So niche. Yes. I really think about these things. Agas are tricky. Are they? Yeah. I had one many, many years ago. I bought a tiny cottage and it happened to have an aga in it. I must have been 24. I barely cooked. Maybe I was younger than that. And it's always at the same temperature. So you have to obviously learn. It's a whole new way of cooking. Yeah, yeah. And there's maybe three chambers. It was confusing. What's funny is that before the renovations, there was an oil one. And now we've got a new one, an electric one. Oh, that's basically an oven. Yeah, it's going to be. Well, it's got those things that go up like that.

13:37Fearne Cotton: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love those. I love that. So I want my sort of trad wife at home, you know. And I like this thing of I'm going to be leaning against the little thing where the towel rails is warming your bum. Warming your bum after a big walk or after you've jumped in the locken. In Loch Lala. Oh, so dreamy. So I really, I absolutely, my life is completely the same in terms of it's not balanced. But I do have like little things that I feel, at least if I can do that. Yes. Because when I heard you on Lulu's podcast, maybe a few years ago now, and she asked you if you were a workaholic. And it's a really interesting question because, you know, perhaps I could say that I am, you could say that you are.

14:19Fearne Cotton: But actually, I think when I look at how prolific you've been, how diverse your career is, it seems more so that you just need to create. It's something, a desire within you that's not like I just must fill my diary. It's like you've got to be creating. That's part of who you are. Yeah, I think it's true. And I always think if you're an addict, it means that you wake up in the morning, you have to do that thing. Or you can't do without the thing. I can do without. I love, like the year with COVID was my favourite year of my life. Not working. Yeah. And I just loved it. Do you know what I loved?

14:58What?

14:58Fearne Cotton: Not getting invited anywhere. Yeah. I loved it. I didn't have to think of an excuse. The first friend I went to, yeah, it was so good. I was like, oh my God, I forgot how much I don't like these things. Yeah, awful. But just, yeah, like not having that. So it's not that I, I didn't miss any of that that year. But I do feel it is about being creative. Like why I laugh when you said about being creative is that at my theatre that I run, you know, Luxury Festival Theatre, I'm an artistic director there. One of the people, our finance guy, Dougie, said to me, Alan, you have too many ideas. And I was like, oh, sorry.

15:33And I thought, wait, why am I saying sorry? But I do, I sort of feel, sometimes I feel like I wish I didn't have so many ideas because I'm also quite strong-willed and I'm good at manifesting things. And so sometimes, and so the other day, this is so weird. Yesterday, was it yesterday or the day before, I met Dakota Fanning at this thing in LA. And I was talking to her about Budapest and I said, oh, I love Budapest. I made a film there years ago and she's making a film there. and I remember thinking I'll manifest that I want to do another film in Budapest so I can go there and then I thought oh no don't stop it right now because that will happen and you want to be making scones

16:10Fearne Cotton: Why do you think you're particularly good at it? Because I think over the years I've been pretty good at that I'm just a random kid from the suburbs and then I ended up doing this extraordinary job because I was so dead set on that idea there was no other option I'm not quite sure what the other bits of the alchemy are that are necessarily needed. I think, you know, the whole manifesting thing can be talked about in a way that feels like, oh, I'm failing at manifesting, I'm failing at life. Yes, yes. I think if you are strong, it might be as simple as, if you are that strong-willed and your vision is that clear and you're determined to put the work in, which is the other bit that's often missing from the convo.

16:50And it's also not crazy things. You're not deluded. If I'm manifesting, I want to go to Budapest. That's not, you know.

16:56Fearne Cotton: No, you're not saying I want to become a premier footballer. Right, yeah. But I've done things like that. You might be good at football. I've just assumed that. You're not. But I was just thinking a few years ago, I did a thing and said, I really want to do, oh, I remember when I, the last time I did cabaret, I've done that musical cabaret a few times and I did it on Broadway and I was 50 and I finished and I remember thinking, whoa, this is, I'll never be asked to dance like this. I'll never, this is the end of something. I'll never be, I'll never use my body like this for my work again. and I thought, I've still got one more in the mirror.

17:30And I thought, I'll do something. I'll do a show that's sort of a dance in a musical or something, you know, blah, blah, blah. What happened was, and I sort of was thinking, what can I do? I ended up doing a one-man dance theatre piece about Robert Burns that nearly killed me. And so that's the dangers of manifestation.

17:49Fearne Cotton: Yeah, yeah. You have the idea. And also you put it into action as quickly as possible. I think if you have the idea and you sort of dilly-dally too much, that's where it floats off. You've got to kind of get into it straight away. But seemingly there's something within your personality, your makeup, whatever you've inherited from your ancestors that has enabled you to think big, dream big and have the discipline to do it. Because when you, for instance, did your speech when your Walk of Fame star in Hollywood was placed down, you mentioned a teacher who had said some pretty shitty things about you.

18:28Fearne Cotton: Like you wouldn't amount to anything. You wouldn't work in the arts or whatever. Never make it as a professional actor, yeah. And that drove you further. I think for some people that would stop you in your tracks. Like, oh God, yeah, I am. What am I thinking? But your mindset is often to go, well, I'm going to prove you wrong. Yes. But I still feel that he, I still feel I want to speak out and say how wrong that is because I, by whatever fluke or act of will, didn't, you know, I'm a successful actor. I also feel there would be a lot of other people who would be squashed by that and be damaged by that.

19:07I was damaged by that, very much so, for quite a few years. But, you know, I also realized that it's also connected to my father, that I feel that I had a, in the same way that he told me I was not able to do something, I was sort of worthless in this area, this teacher. My father told me that as well. And so I feel like from a very early age, I had to make up my own mind about things because I could see that things weren't right. Or there was one parent telling you you were terrible and nothing, and one parent telling you you were great. So, you know, they can't be both right. So I feel in my life I've got two things.

19:44One, I'm suspicious of people who are extreme and they're putting me down. And two, I let them do it for quite a while longer than I should before I get my shit together. That's the sort of legacy of it. But I do feel it's when I that's why I spoke. I've always wanted to talk about that, actually, about the teacher. And I didn't say who they were and think that's not what interests me. But it's about the fact that I had those things happen to me that I am acknowledging were really damaging and could have ended it for me. But I, yeah, I persevered because I believed in myself, I think.

20:20Fearne Cotton: Yeah, well, because when we're young, our brains are still developing. So, of course, you're so sponge-like taking on every bit of criticism and then forming an opinion of who you are as a person, which I think we probably keep on figuring out until the day we die. But when you're young, you know, you're so susceptible to that kind of critique. And I think, you know, you've obviously talked a lot about your dad growing up. And when you're a tiny kid, especially sort of zero to seven, where that imprint on a young kid can be lifelong. It is remarkable that you've managed to override that because I think, again, many people and I've sat here and interviewed lots of people or even I can look at my own life or people that I've interviewed in other areas are completely screwed from, you know, the moment they go out into the big wide world to find out how they fit into it.

21:09Fearne Cotton: they're blocked because they've been told you're a piece of shit you're worthless you won't amount to anything I think it takes again like a whole recipe of strength and courage resilience and determination to override that I think it does I know but also I think it is very for me it was I realized now my mom being this you know being the polar opposite telling me the polar opposite I mean truly my dad told me I was worthless And my mum told me I was precious And of course you want to believe your mum Yeah I am a strong person and I Have overcome I functioned very well For someone who has had an Abusive childhood I think But it's still with me It's still that's what I wrote a book you know about it And then I wrote another book Kind of about the fact that I was well it's another book but also about the fact that it's I didn't want people to think that because I had suddenly revealed all this stuff about myself that it was all kind of tied up it's very American oh yeah fine oh you overcame it yeah it's not I have I I it's with me all the time and and I as I say I let I allow that kind of behavior I realize even to this day I allow people to behave towards me certain a certain type of man yeah probably who is sort of telling me that is kind of maybe slightly you know gaslighting me or something or undermining me uh it doesn't happen that often but when it does i'm i've re i see this is a new thing i've realized i let i let it go on too long because i'm sort of thinking oh they must be right i can't they can't you know, I give them too much.

22:53Fearne Cotton: And it's familiar. I think a lot of that. Absolutely. We're like, oh, I know this. I know this dance. Yeah, I'm used to this. Yeah. So, so I, but also just even things like, yeah, there's just a lot of, you know, there's many things about anger and violence. Like this new Russell T. Davis show. Yeah. That I've done was very difficult because it's, it's about the way that violence and and hatred is normalized. And it was very triggering. God, I bet it was. In many ways. But it was also why I wanted to do it.

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24:50I mean, I watched the first two episodes and it is, like many of his shows, raw and gritty.

24:57Fearne Cotton: And you've got so many different emotions wrapped up into the story, love and sorrow. And you've got your living next door to David Morrissey, who plays, I guess, the other end of the spectrum in terms of worldviews, values, politics. and you're trying to work out how to live alongside each other. I mean, the opening scene of episode one, I was like, oh my God, it's shocking, shocking. I can't imagine how triggering most of it was. But there are some beautiful storylines in there. Like I just watched episode two today and I don't want to give too much away for people that haven't seen it. Well, I had a good old hearty cry at the lovely text exchange that you were having with the young neighbour.

25:37Fearne Cotton: It was so beautiful. Yeah, I know I could cry. Let me think about that. I saw it, you know, a couple of months ago. And I'm in it, you know. It's been quite familiar to me for the last couple of years. But even I was so, I was on the edge of my seat, but also I was incredibly moved by those things, which is great because, you know, I was moved by them when Russell told me about the story and then when the scripts came in, so the fact that I moved the finished product is so great because often you aren't. you know often doesn't quite land in the same way but no that's really beautiful and also I think it's so moving his past relationship with his his ex yeah it's really lovely with Charlie Condu plays my ex in it and it's it's it's uh yeah it was it was a lot but a lot of dad stuff kind of came up during that time and I had this very monastic existence doing yeah a lot I mean I'm I've been in therapy for, I don't know, 30 years.

26:41Therapy is the best. I'm all for it. I mean, it's so incredibly helpful to me. And just as, you know, as a checking in thing, sometimes there's obviously things that, oh, I want to talk about this. Or other times it's just, you know, I always say it's like going to the gym for your mind.

26:59Fearne Cotton: Yep. And I love it. Got to keep going. Totally. and just to be reminded of certain you know my therapist would say oh well you're probably feeling that because of you know and you go oh yeah yeah yeah we can't see it because we're in it yes you just need someone to i have that literally every week like oh my god how could i that's so obvious that's right there but we're we're living it so so when you're shooting something like tiptoe and you are confronted in a scene or there's something that's come up it could be a feeling that you weren't expecting because of the nature of what you're discussing in the scene there's some big heavy you know political subjects in there and how the two characters are kind of so opposing in so many ways what do you do to make sure then that you're all right rather than just sort of you can't obviously leave set and then just integrate back into the world with all those feelings I I uh I mean on this because it was shot it on in Manchester and in a funny way I remember thinking oh I'm going to Manchester and like I run a bar in the story on Canal Street you know and I've never really spent very much time in Manchester only just little fleeting visits and I remember thinking oh I'll have a great time I'll be out in Canal Street I'll go to all that well it'll be really fun I'll let go because I'll go dancing all the time nothing I was like a monk I you know I went out a few a couple of times at weekends but no I had I I went I would go home and be quiet.

28:27I know, and it's so not like me, actually. But I, that was the way I dealt with it. And I had my dog with me and I think that was really important. Yeah. For a lot of the time Lala was with me, but, and I, you know, just having to go out with her and having to sort of get up a bit earlier and just, you know, and even just the gym, I've become one of those people that sort of waxes lyrical about the gym and recently I found myself saying, I really, what's your favourite non-alcoholic beer? And I thought, what have they done to Alan? and um i'm not i'm drinking again but uh i just i just really was i let it you know in a funny sort of way having access to your emotions and being someone that is you know i'm very conscious of that a lot of the things that i have to do are triggering or challenging to what you know some of the things i find really difficult in my life and i'm not i go through life i'm a happy person and And I'm, but I'm also prepared to be vulnerable.

29:28And I think that's what you have to do to be an actor, to be a good actor. You have to be prepared to be vulnerable. So if you, and of course it's not, you can't just switch it off. But, but the fact that I use the fact that I am like that in life, I feel like, I feel like I'm like that. And like, I'm constantly, joy is here, but also despair is maybe there too. And I don't, I'm not despairing a lot of the time, but I feel things. and so I used that in my work. But also I, usually I would, to sort of get out of it, I would go out and have fun and da-da-da. In this one, it was, also I didn't know so many people in Manchester and so going out in public when you don't know so many people, you have to go out in a posse to keep, you know.

30:11So that was one of the things as well and I, yeah. So I was a little bit of a monk.

30:18Fearne Cotton: Do you think it's always helpful to sort of have that access or level of exposure to stuff from the past? Because, you know, obviously there is exposure therapy. I've done it in certain ways with EMDR, the eye movement therapy, which I found really helpful. But I think when you're doing it on the job, you know, you're working, you're confronted with issues that, you know, might make you feel a certain way or a memory might flash up. Do you think it's always helpful or, you know, because I'm always. I'm always considering how much should we leave things in the past and go, I've dealt with that, it's done, versus I need to have an awareness that it's there so that I don't get caught out.

30:59Well, I think it's not like when I'm doing a scene, I'm not thinking, oh, this is like the past or this is like an instant in my life. I suppose that's what method acting is. And I don't really adhere to that at all. I'm being, you know, I'm just pretending to be someone else and meaning it. But sometimes when the situations you're pretending are similar to things, very similar to things you have great experience of, then it sort of helps. But I think in general, just being someone who is willing to show your vulnerability in your life, on your face, and, you know, is helpful to being a good artist.

31:37and especially a film on film because you know you're you know that's why it's so crazy that I'm doing the traitors because I have the worst poker face ever in real life I'm like

31:49Fearne Cotton: So does Alan Carr and he bloody won the UK one That was why It was hilarious Yes I know it's so funny I saw Maura Do you know Maura? Yeah yeah yeah She was at the time thing last night she was interviewing me and she goes Why did you not make me a traitor? And I was like Well if we had You wouldn't have had that great moment on TV. But I don't have good poker face in real life. No, I don't. I couldn't go on it. I can't lie. But then you would maybe like if you, I mean, I think the thing is when you have to lie, I mean, that's kind of like acting when you have to lie. But even like, you know, I don't know whether it's I'm getting sloppy, but like I have a thing in my ear all the time when I'm doing it.

32:32And what do you call this again? Earpiece. Oh, yeah. Thank you. Wow. you're jet lagged it's fine so I have my earpiece in and this great guy called Sam who's the producer who's always talking to me and sometimes I actually I feel I'm just like

32:52Fearne Cotton: brooding players you know blah blah and he's and they've said what I've actually been doing is this like like rolling my eyes at them that's so good like when they've made really stupid decisions and so you have yeah Yeah, it is. I've just sort of lapsed from character, really. No, I'm like that. I sort of can't not say the thing, like say the truth. I would rather always just, well, like I'm not very good if I've got not somebody else's secret, but a secret about me. I can't not say it. Yes. Have to just say the thing. I don't like surprises and secrets. I hate surprises. Yeah, me too. I'm not good with them.

33:28Fearne Cotton: I'll always find out that it's going to happen. I've got a spidey sense and I'll work it out. Yeah, I don't like surprises. I hate often it's quite often they do things you know when you're doing press stuff they do oh we've got a surprise oh fuck that yeah and here's your primary school teacher no we don't want that no so say when you're doing it could be anything theatre I know you've got a big load of theatre shows coming up Traitors which is so gargantuan in the States it is a massive show like it is here but on a ginormous scale or you're in a film whatever does the the feeling of that unworthiness or the past from your upbringing?

34:07Fearne Cotton: Does it creep into those big moments? Is it a dialogue? Is it an inner narration of, I shouldn't be here? Where does it crop up? What is it? It's not, I feel very, now anyway, I feel very that I'm good enough. I understand my power. Yeah. I do. And I feel I am, I know what I have to offer. And like, you know, it's great actually doing things like, I mean, I think when I'm acting, I feel like I'm a good actor and I feel like I, you know, I do tell the story and I can be heart wrenching. I can be funny and I don't have a problem with that. I don't, I'm not insecure about acting. and in the thing like you know like at Pit Lockery I am really aware I understand what I bring like what it means what I can provide to the theatre and to the because of me being famous and then me attracting people to come and what all that means I absolutely get all that I don't have a problem with all that no it's not really like that it's just that sometimes I can get triggered by certain personalities I will allow them I will allow people to be well abusive I suppose abusive and you know it could be sort of and it doesn't happen very often but when it does I will I think I should have stopped that sooner I should have seen that coming that's that's my black spot is that what you call it?

35:35blind spot blind spot yeah that's what it is and it's also like one of these things because I am so confident and I understand I am very self-aware I think except that and then when something like that does happen and it did happen actually you know relatively recently and I I'm mad at myself for having allowed it to happen and not having seen it but that's the whole point that's what you that's the whole point is that you it's so ingrained for all for all my formative years that was my familiar was someone undermining me and telling me I was and also the thing of people getting pleasure out of hurting you that's something that's so difficult to like that I you know that thing that people actually you can see they're enjoying this power they have over you and also it's the thing about when you're famous and blah blah blah and I bet you know this too that people kind of want to bring you down sometimes and it's just really like why why do you I'm not doing this to you and what is it about it's all about them of course their feelings of insecurity so that's the thing it's hard I think it's just like this you walk into a room and there's a people know a lot of stuff about you have loads of opinions about you you don't know them or have any opinions about them and you go in open like this and even when you are open like this it can be interpreted in a different way because of all the baggage they've got about you that is exhausting yeah and especially when you go into situations where you're having to genuinely interact and connect with people you just realize how much of a sort of how much work how you've got to scrape through it all to get to them you

37:26Fearne Cotton: know yeah and you've also got to it's such a strange thing you've got to go i'm a human i'm just a human i'm just like a regular guy you know it's it's that is exhausting and bonkers i it was funny when when i started the job at pitlockery i sort of said that i felt they wanted to do these uh you know what do that for yes it's a tv show a film they want to do a documentary film about me doing it and about me starting this job and i thought i don't want to go into this arena a new arena for me you know running a theater and them and i'm like oh you know famous person comes to run the theater and with a film crew like the first time i'm meeting all these people with a film so I said no I didn't want to do it because and I said this thing I felt like I thought people thought I was going to be like Godzilla stomping stomping through you know kind of and and and I and I was right to think that I think that because people did have you know there is a scenario there that people believe in yeah and and and and and and so you have to a lot of the time starting in that job was about trying to sort of push that aside and and i generally feel i'm actually really quite good at that when i'm in a room with people and they see me and you know the bit you know what i think did it when i felt like i've got them and i've this is they understand me was when i dj'd a big party and we danced our tits off yeah and i invited all the town to come my little flyer of me what did you play oh i play all sorts of I'm like into poppy disco funny you know I like that I love all just I and I dance myself yeah like now I think since I've been when I've done a few I've done it I like teaching but I think when I see when I go to a club and I think or a party I think why is the DJ not dancing why the fuck should I dance if the DJ's not dancing in a morose manner yeah I don't like that so I dance too and get everyone dancing and it's just such fun and they had a they had flyers for it in the chip shop and the co-op and all the people from the town came and i feel it was a really it's a good leveler absolutely absolutely and i feel if you can't dance and let go and also i feel like i'm good at losing my inhibitions and i think i am good at encouraging people to lose inhibitions because i'm basically saying i'm not going to judge you and that's what it is you create you create a because I'm like bonkers and dancing away so why can't you and it is such a thing it's hard for some for some people to do but I love it when it happens yeah how gorgeous and it is ultimately so bonding because I think then you go into work the next day and we've all had a lovely dance the night before absolutely it's a sigh it's a sigh of relief

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41:14Fearne Cotton: When you were talking a moment ago about certain people that can trigger that feeling in you, I totally know what you're saying because I have it with, it's quite niche, people that I know have gone to like a fancy uni who are men, who are journalists. It's that combination. So when I sense that that's who I'm being interviewed by, they went to Oxbridge and my instant thing, I'm making it all up in my head because this might not be the case, but they're going stupid, uneducated. Like they're just judging me from the get go. Some have been vile. That's probably because at some point that has happened.

41:51I've had a couple who have been vile. You're not imagining it.

41:53Fearne Cotton: And what happens to me in that moment is I become probably 13. Like in my everything, like in my body, I can feel like, oh, my God, I'm like this. I've sort of folded on myself. I feel like a silly teenager because you do sort of regress back to whatever that may have been back then. Do you have that sense? Like you become, is it childlike in that moment? I think maybe I I'm just trying to think about this recent thing how I in a funny sort of way well I tried it was two phases so the first bit and I suppose which is the bit you're talking about the triggering bit I try super hard I think what is wrong what have I done wrong that's I think mea culpa mea culpa what have I done wrong how can I I'm not doing this right I should have, you know, blah, blah, blah.

42:46And which is, you know, I'm worthless. I'm terrible. And it's not like I don't go through that in general in my life. When I'm challenged in that way and I feel like I'm not doing something well or I'm letting someone down, I go, oh, it's me. I've got to work hard. I've got to do it. And then there comes a point when I'm like, oh, no, how dare you? And I, you know, and I have, look at the situation here and I completely turn. so it just I wish that would the first bit would be less yeah because that's and I because then I'm

43:19Fearne Cotton: like oh this is what we're going to do here this is what we're going to do and we're going to be fair and we're not going to you know but we're not doing this no no no no and that part I just and also I because I was also I also do what did you think you were doing why are you trying to undermine me why would you do that that you know that when when when that happens i i'm i actually i'm very good at that's the thing i'm very good at confrontation oh are you yeah i'm working on that one i've got i don't know why but i've got so much better at it and and i think the thing is sometimes when you say that people think that means you're good at shouting and confrontation no no that's confrontation is just going i want to talk about this yeah or i'm not going to do that which is so healthy people want that we want to know where we stand with people what the boundaries are yeah it's like even saying i don't want to take a selfie yeah you know that's actually a comfort comfort and and when i'm i've just got really good at it over the years and i'll just say to people you know i i want i don't want to i need to talk to you about this or whatever i that that rather than getting angry about it or storing it up which i think is probably what i used to do Same And as younger It's actually been really interesting Like right now I'm in the middle of doing The High Life musical In Scotland With Forbes And my You know We wrote the sitcom 30 years ago Yeah it's so cool You brought it back for this It's great It's so nuts I love it It's so hilarious So bonkers And Siobhan Redmond And Patrick Reichardt The original Other two actors in it We're all in it And you know We're all a thousand years old And it's worth Like these Bunch of amazing Young actors Who weren't born when the series first went out.

45:02Mad. It's so nuts. But it's been interesting going back to, like, working with Forbes or even working with Siobhan and Patrick. It's 30 years later. And I think I deal with things in a different way. You know, I don't, like Forbes and I, I think I say to him, I don't think we should do this or we should, you know, rather than I think perhaps in the past, I think I would have stored it all up and sort of hoped I was sending the signals to him that I wanted when I might not have been. And now I'm really clear about it. I just, and it seems like you're being do-do-do, but actually you're just being clear.

45:41Fearne Cotton: Oh, it's so much better than building up the resentment and then being pissed off or being passive aggressive. No one wants that. I think it's a great life skill. It really is. I'm not quite sure how it happened, but it has happened. It's so funny. I remember a couple of years ago, my house in New York was being renovated and the builders said, oh, yes, you can move in on a certain date. So sell your old apartment. It's ready. Yeah, we're ready to go. And then we sold the apartment really fast. And they said, oh, there's a three month delay. And I was furious, furious. And I remember I said to the head of the building, I said, if this was a restaurant, you'd give me a free meal.

46:22What are you going to give me? and I did this whole thing and he sort of and I got free I got another year of warranty and I didn't have to pay the thing after a certain date it was pretty like fair enough you know done and everything and I told my business manager about this and and he said gosh you're really good at confrontation I wish I was that good at confrontation I was like I don't want to hear that from you my business manager but what was hilarious was that when it was all finished and you know like when you have finished like here it's called snagging

46:53Fearne Cotton: Right, yeah So we're having that in our place up in Scotland right now Snagging's happening Snagging, yeah But they call it something else in America I can't remember Anyway, I was coming out of the house one day And the man I'd gone to town with And he was scared of me after that He was coming up the steps And he saw me And he kind of blanched And he started like Oh well, so Alan You know, you're here in the house now And it's so beautiful And it must be It's worth all the trouble, isn't it? And I said And I just think This is like I think I'm so glad I have this skill that I actually can say these lines, think of these lines at times.

47:26I said, my rage for you is diminishing. Yes.

47:31Fearne Cotton: So theatrical. Isn't it good? So Betty Davis. My rage for you is diminishing. Where's your cigarette holder? Yes. I loved that. I need to use that in the future. I'm on a very good path towards that. I used to be so bad at confrontation. I've just done a book tour and me and my friend Porna, who were chatting about this very subject, sort of people pleasing and not wanting to rock the boat. Yeah. Sort of thought of like the worst one that we've both done, which is when you're in a massage and someone is really going to town and they go, is the pressure? You're literally crying. Is the pressure?

48:10Fearne Cotton: And you go, it's great. Why are you not saying this? Stop. It hurts. It's mad. Anyway, I'm not there anymore. That's good. I'm in the middle. I'm getting there. That's hilarious. That's such a good example. It's so ridiculous. Before we wrap up, we've already touched on music and your love of DJing and playing great tunes. We are making a Happy Place playlist where we're going to put, all of our guests have put brilliantly happy songs on there, or songs that make them feel buoyant and jubilant and want to dance around. What would you put on our playlist? Am I allowed, there's a mash-up by David Goet, how do you say it again?

48:51Guetta, Guetta Guetta, Guetta Guetta, Guetta of the Proclaimers

48:55Fearne Cotton: Is this the one you couldn't play on Desert Island? Yes I, and I, and so because, I don't know why I couldn't play it because it's a BBC Yes, BBC So it's the Proclaimers 500 Miles Sia Titanium Genius and Midnight Oil I always get which one's the band and which one's the song The time has come Oh yeah To say fair's fair That one What a mashup. Honestly, it's genius. We're putting that on there. No one else, unsurprisingly, has put that on there. It's amazing. Because also, it starts with the Midnight Oil thing, and everyone's like, oh, and then it goes, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun.

49:33And it's like, oh, it's Sia. Then you hear, when I wake up. And I was like, what? It's the Proclaimers. And then, you know, it keeps coming in at different times, and it's so good.

49:42Fearne Cotton: Desert Island Discs made you just play the Proclaimers, didn't they? Yes. It was just straight up. I know. It was great, but it wasn't the mash-up. Yeah, it wasn't what I wanted to do. And yeah, because it was a mash-up. It's on SoundCloud and things like that. It's not commercially available. That's what it did. We'll find it. We'll get that from somewhere. That's going on there. Have you done Desert Island Discs? No, I'm not there yet. One day, please pick me. I'm really intrigued about when people cry at Desert Island Discs, because everyone cries. Yeah. Yeah, well, music evokes everything, doesn't it?

50:12And also when you're doing it, like it starts and you hear this theme tune. And it's actually because you've got headphones on. It's such a moment. It's much better. You hear the little seagulls and everything. And you're like, oh my God, I'm actually on Desert Island.

50:25Fearne Cotton: And I've listened to it forever. I'm obsessed. I love it. And I love when it's like some random scientist lady. Oh, me too. That I've never heard of. And I think, well, you're amazing. Yeah. I love it. I do love that. It's just the storytelling. It's so good. Yeah. It's just such a brilliant. and so many people have tried to do versions of it over the years in different ways but actually the old fashionedness of it and the thing they think you know what can you actually you have to think of what you would actually take for an island if you were going on an island yourself I took marijuana seeds Why not?

50:57Why not?

50:57Fearne Cotton: If you're going to be there you might as well have a good time Right and be chilled out Yeah you know One of my favourites is Princess Margaret Have you listened to that one? No Oh my god It's from obviously a million years ago It is genius Do you know I I'm obsessed with Princess Margaret. Me too. Because I love just, I once insulted Princess Margaret. No, you did not. Forbes and I, it was so funny because recently someone sent us a picture of us in a, you know, those things. And it looks like Princess Margaret is curtsying to Forbes. I think she was just smaller than him. Or maybe, I don't know.

51:31But it was, this is probably in 1987 or 8 or something, a very long time ago. and it was a gala for Scottish ballet and she was the patron of Scottish ballet. And it was at the time when, you know, it was like when Andrew and Fergie were all busy and we were Victor and Barry, these characters, and we were sort of huge in Scotland at the time. And we came on, but it was a frosty crowd. Right. And we said this gag, we said, which one's Fergie? Like that. And Princess Margaret's up in the thing. And he went, no, it's not, it's Margaret. I was like, which one is she? Like this. and Forrest went, oh, that's her up there munching the chocolate liqueurs.

52:13That's what we said. Kind of funny.

52:15Fearne Cotton: That's great. And the whole place just went like that. And we were like, oh. And my friend who was sitting near her afterwards, I thought, it'll be fine. It's a little for everyone. You know, everyone's nice. When he saw him afterwards, he said, oh, Alan. And I went, oh, he said, was it really bad? did she really look like she was offended? And she went, she visibly stiffened. I love visibly stiffened. Oh, I bet she did. And so then we met her. She was nice when we met her. One final quick question. Where, Alan Cumming, is your happy place? My happy place is at home. At home, I think probably it's either it's maybe in Lough Lalla or it's like that or it's leaning against my aga or it's in I have a place in the Catskills of mountains it's north of New York so wow and I have a place there that my brother said is like I've bought my childhood and I feel that it's I'm completely I made it you know what I mean I made it I built the cabins and stuff like that and I feel that's I feel that's a really great achievement that I have as well I have a sense of achievement and it's just a sanctuary and it reminds me of Scotland and yet it's my it's like my it is It's like my childhood that I've, the things that I loved about my childhood and my upbringing made in my own way.

53:38That's so beautiful.

53:39Fearne Cotton: I love that. Well, look, thank you so much. Thank you, Fran. So nice to talk to you. For being on Happy Place. I've loved it. And good luck with your theatre run with Tiptoe. It's a genius show. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. What a man. What a chat. And if you watched that on YouTube, what a jumper. I wanted to take that jumper off his back. I actually did do that once in a podcast episode. Do you remember when, if any of you listened to the Zayn Malik podcast episode, I talked at Zayn about how much I loved his cardigan. So much so, and I actually feel embarrassed about this, he gave me it at the end.

54:18Fearne Cotton: I wear it all the bloody time. It's like a grey cardigan with little rhinestones on it. I'm never out of the thing, but I quite literally took the clothes off his back. I was one step away from doing that with Alan, but I managed to refrain somehow. Yeah, what a stylish guy. Amazing hair too. God, I'm just completely in love with him. Alan will be creatively involved in four different productions at the Pitt Lockery Festival Theatre later this year. So if you're in Scotland or you fancy a nice little trip there, definitely check those out because, oh my God, it's going to be so good. All right, a huge thanks again to Alan.

54:53Fearne Cotton: And of course, to you gorgeous lot for being here with us. Love you loads.

55:19Fearne Cotton: Happy Place is researched by me, Fern Cotton. The producer is Anushka Tate at Happy Place Studios. with Studio Engineering by Basil Oxtoby.