Alex Partridge: Neurodiversity, masking, and workplace inclusion

0:00Hello and a huge welcome to Happy Place. I'm Fern Cotton and this is the show that helps you be that little bit kinder to yourself. Today, live from the Happy Place Festival, I'm chatting to Alex Partridge. So many of us in the neurodivergent community, we're burdened by this shame, this guilt of, oh, I've messed up again. Why can't I just do what everyone else seems to be able to do? Everyone else seems to just be gliding by, I just seem to be stuck. You have that realisation that you're just living in a neurotypical world and you're neurodivergent, then you can be so much kinder to yourself.

0:38The knock-on effects of that is less anxiety. It is less stress and less shame. So guys, how are you? I hope you're well. As I said at the very, very start, this is the podcast where we just try and be a bit kinder to ourselves. Today, I've practiced that. I'm not very good at it normally, but today I did something I've been wanting to do for ages. I had a morning off work and I painted and it was so nice. I painted all morning. I had music playing, bit of Jimi Hendrix, bit of Nick Mulvey, bit of Fleetwood Mac, eating loads of snacks, painting away. I was absolutely happy as a pig in shit. And sometimes I forget to do stuff like that for myself.

1:21Just be kind and rather than think, no, I must work. I must do a chore. I must empty the dishwasher. Just to do something I really wanted to do. It was so nice. So we're going to talk more about that in today's episode. Alex is one of the real pioneers of social media content as we know it today. He's the guy who at just 21 years old founded Unilad and Ladbible. Basically they're two of the most popular social news and entertainment brands on the entire internet. But and this is often the case when we talk to really successful people, mentally it was a real struggle for him to make work work for him.

2:00So looking back at school, he'd get really overwhelmed and have to leave the classroom because he was having a panic attack. He'd last just three weeks at new jobs because the office environment felt like really suffocating and his busy brain was constantly coming up with ideas for new business plans that he'd buy domains for and then forget about about a week later. Then when he was 34, he was diagnosed with ADHD and quickly combined his personal experience of mental health and his entrepreneurial knowledge to help make businesses and society more accommodating for neurodivergent minds. This is something I am so deeply interested in and so massively passionate about, especially ADHD.

2:48It's a subject close to my heart and one that I've taken quite a lot of time personally not even professionally, just in my free time to learn about. I've done a couple of online courses. I've even got a certificate, guys. And it's just something that I think we all need to know much more about. And it's a hot topic. People are talking about it all the time to the point where you might have heard me say this on other episodes like the Gemma Stiles one. People often say, oh, God, everyone's got ADHD today. That's not the case. Not everybody has ADHD, but more people being diagnosed who were simply misdiagnosed, undiagnosed back in the day when we weren't talking about this stuff.

3:29This chat with Alex has an unbelievable number of practical takeaways that could be genuinely game-changing, I think, for society. There are coping mechanisms that you can enact yourself if you're the one with ADHD or anxiety, and if you're seeing these things in other people and want to help create an environment that they can thrive in. The market's uncertain. Revenue's tied and hiring on hold. That's why results-driven companies are using Upwork to keep work moving. Go to Upwork.com today and start hiring proven freelance talent fast. No bulky overhead. No rigid long-term contracts. Just the right expert right when you need them.

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5:44and conditions apply. Find out more at CapitalOne.com slash Spark Cash Plus. All right, let's get on with the show. I asked Alex how ADHD can impact every corner of someone's life professionally and personally and what coping mechanisms he has in place to ensure he can navigate life's inevitable twists and turns as he continues to build new businesses and have a life outside of work.

6:33so there's common themes that I've picked up about my own experience with ADHD and the hundreds of people I've spoken to on my podcast, from psychiatrists to celebrities, from academics to addicts, the emotional dysregulation is the theme that crops up. And the turmoil and the havoc, if not understood, that that can cause in all aspects of your life, in the workplace, in relationships, personally, through impulse spending, not being able to manage your emotions. I think having an awareness of it is the first tool to manage it. And actually having that understanding that you are wired a little bit differently to how society perhaps expects you to behave and respond in some situations.

7:22Putting a breaker between a scenario and your reaction, I found has been critical to managing all aspects of this sort of thing we deal with called emotional dysregulation, whether that's in relationships, if someone makes a comment that you perceive to be a criticism and the past me might have not put that breaker in and impulsively reacted to it and said something that I would later regret, putting that breaker in there actually gives you enough time to regulate yourself, zoom out a bit and see it from a different perspective, and then come back to that scenario and deal with it in a more appropriate way, in a way that's not going to cause you to then dwell on this and overthink and catastrophize later on thinking, oh, that person thinks I'm too much and now hates me.

8:11Putting that break is really important. I think reflecting on the day is super important. And you don't need to journal, you don't need to meditate necessarily, but just reflecting on the day and really being honest with yourself about what happened today that made me happy. What happened today that made me sad? what happened today that made me in that moment think that I should say something impulsively. I think if you can reflect on your day and sit on the end of your bed and do this, you can really build up an arsenal of self-awareness that I think can give you an edge over your competition in business or your past self.

8:53It's such a great learning curve. I think communication with your partner in relationships is fundamental. I've spoken to some amazing relationship therapists on my podcast and the main learning is really being intentional with having communication time around all of this stuff and really dedicating time to sit down and creating that understanding between the two of you in a relationship is so important. because if one partner doesn't understand rejection sensitivity dysphoria, for example, and you're having a conversation and one of the people in the relationship accidentally says something unintentionally that triggers the other partner, and there isn't an awareness that that trigger's taken place, from that moment, from the trigger, there's two separate conversations happening.

9:47The person who's triggered isn't in the conversation anymore. They're catastrophizing, they're masking, the mask suddenly comes back, they're filling with shame because they're aware of what's happening. Having a code word, a code signal if you're in public, it could be as simple as a tap on the shoulder to let the other partner know that something's been said, something's happened that has triggered them. Communication, creating an understanding and an awareness in a relationship is so important. And in the workplace, again, it's spotting the signs of anxiety. The biggest manifestation of neurodiversity in the workplace is always anxiety.

10:24Spotting what an anxious employee looks like. Is someone abruptly removing themselves from a situation, from a meeting? Is someone turning up late when before they were quite punctual? Is someone saying yes to everything? If someone is over committing and saying yes to everything, that's often because they struggle to assert boundaries and that's a symptom of anxiety recognizing what an anxious employee looks like and i think as business owners the what the key takeaway i've learned is that if you accommodate neurodiversity if you put things in place that enables the neurodivergent mind to become activated there's so many positives and how do we do that?

11:09We can allow people to have flexible start times. So many people come into work and they're already frazzled because they've been overwhelmed by the rush hour traffic or the busy tube. And in meetings, don't let the loudest voice dictate the decision to a problem. Give the problem to the group and then let the whole company go away. And in their own time, they can submit solutions to the problem. Because if you let the loud employee in the meeting dictate the decision, quite often the neurodivergent employee will be sat there at the table tapping their foot, biting their fingernails, too anxious to contribute.

11:48More often than not, the best ideas are trapped inside anxious mind. And things like normalizing fidget toys and noise-canceling headphones, giving a map of the building, there's so many things that if you accommodate neurodiversity within your business, then you'll give yourself a competitive advantage over your competition. If you are in the workplace and you've got a diagnosis or not, but you've got an inkling, maybe listening to this very chat has made someone go, God, yeah, a lot of this is really ringing true. That's certainly the case for me when I listen to your podcast, look at your content online.

12:24I'm going, yep, yep, yep. Like nodding away to so much of it. And anxiety has played a huge part in my life and I know it has for many people sat here today many people listening to the podcast that's probably why they're engaging with happy place and and your podcast as well because this stuff rings true and feels like it's at the core of a lot of their problems if you are in the workplace and that anxiety is eating away at you how can we put things in place to help ourselves because yes you're right if you are a business owner everything you've just listed is so highly important that we create a really diverse workplace where everybody's got a say and that we're accommodating for how people's minds work very differently but I think you know I I've perhaps worked out a few coping mechanisms like you know doing a festival like this is not necessarily a calming scenario not gonna lie um this morning felt like running into that woodland and never coming back it's there's a lot of pressure and I worry about all the things that you've mentioned.

13:28Will people like it? Will they hate it? Is the weather going to stay good? Are people going to get their bloody Oasis tickets? It's just like non-stop worry, worry, worry. And I can put a few things in place to just dampen that anxiety. But I've certainly had times in other jobs where the anxiety has been so intense that I've left the job. You know, I left covering for Zoe Bourne Radio 2 because I couldn't get a hold of that anxiety. And my brain was so fizzy and so non-stop that it was too much. What do you do if you're in a situation where you're like, oh, that feeling is coming on up, it's there.

14:08What are you doing to just quieten that down a bit? Recognising it is super important. Recognising your own early signs of anxiety and advocating for yourself. I think the intuition that so many of us have is so strong. Advocating for yourself in business is finding a buddy in the company that you work for and being confident to be able to open up with them and tell them I'm struggling now, can you cover for me? And actually just allowing, I think movement is so important. If I'm having an anxious moment, just standing up and walking around the office or advocating for walking meetings is so important.

14:51I mean, there's loads of breathing techniques you can do you can remove yourself from the situation you can take a time out all of these are useful things i always have a fidget toy if i'm doing a podcast i don't today um but putting movement into the situation recognizing what caused the anxiety is super important recognizing what was said what happened that triggered that thought and and how you're responding to it. I think body doubling is a super useful tool to cure anxiety because it lowers the expectations and it takes the pressure off when you're in that office and that anxiety is peaking.

15:34If you've got someone who you can lean on in that moment and actually you feel safe with that person, then the workload is spread between the two of you. It's so important, this bit, because we all should feel comfortable to talk about our neurodivergence to the company that we're working for, because we have to be able to advocate for ourselves in the workplace in order to solve a lot of these problems. I think you know yourself with your intuition, whether you're in a safe place or not to do that. The reality, unfortunately, is if a lot of people, they do advocate for themselves for these conditions and we're met with discrimination, bullying, harassment, all sorts of horrible things, recognising if you're in a safe place to open up and ask for help, you're allowed to work from home.

16:30It's really important to understand the legal obligations that companies have. If you're struggling with anxiety, you're allowed to ask to work from home. You're allowed to ask for flexible start times. You're allowed to have a quiet space in the office and to decompress and to advocate for walking meetings around the office. So there's lots of things that legally you're allowed to do if anxiety is really disabling you from doing the job that you're capable of doing if you were working in an environment that was tailored to your brain. Understanding what those are, you don't have to have a diagnosis of any neurodivergent conditions to ask for these things.

17:07And I think it's important to really recognise your rights as an employee. Anxiety should never stop you from achieving and being able to do what you're able to do. And again, it goes back to the reflecting, really being really brutally honest with yourself and saying what worked today, what didn't work today, and over a period of time, building up that arsenal of resources that will really aid you. I guess it has to be teamed with a level of self-compassion because the reflection bit is so important, as you've said, to be able to sit at the end of the day or week and go, that really worked. That was a struggle.

17:45You know, this I coped with well, this I didn't. But we can't just put all that out on the table and then start judging ourselves. I think it's so important that we and I think we have to cultivate this and learn to do it to say that didn't go so brilliantly or that was really, really stressful. and allow yourself to recognize that, but with self-compassion. And I think most of us have a hard time doing that. Most of us have a hard time being kind to ourselves. We're the first person to go, well, you screwed that up. You're an idiot for making that mistake. And then we just berate ourselves and berate ourselves.

18:21Where are you at in terms of the levels of self-compassion you can exercise in moments of self-reflection? The market's uncertain. revenues tied and hiring on hold that's why results driven companies are using upwork to keep work moving go to upwork.com today and start hiring proven freelance talent fast no bulky overhead no rigid long-term contracts just the right expert right when you need them work smarter and faster with upwork go to upwork.com now and find your freelance expert that's upwork.com Post a job for free and get started today. If you're a smoker or vapor ready to make a change, you really only need one good reason.

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20:24for full details and limitations.

20:31It's a really, really great question. I think there's a great deal of shame in the community. I think that's the main theme that crops up time and time again when I'm speaking to people that have started advocating for themselves. They've discovered this self-awareness. They've suddenly realized that they are wired in a different way that society expects. And that's okay. And to actually have that moment to acknowledge that that's okay is really, really important. And to recognize that a lot of the stuff that you thought were character flaws or defects were actually undiagnosed neurodivergence.

21:12And when you have that moment of realization, it's suddenly a lot easier to be kinder to yourself when you slip up or when something happens that makes you anxious, because it's not your fault. And reminding yourself that it's not your fault is incredibly powerful and incredibly soothing. because so many of us in the neurodivergent community, we're burdened by this shame, this guilt of, oh, I've messed up again. Why can't I just do what everyone else seems to be able to do? Everyone else seems to just be gliding by progressing in their personal life, progressing in their professional life. But I just seem to not, I just seem to be stuck.

21:55For some reason, and I'm not able to progress in the way that I want to do. When you have that realization that it's not your fault, it's so important and so soothing. We all have to be kind to ourselves. We all have to be kind to yourselves. I think people with ADHD, if you were to go back in time when we lived in tribes, we would be the hunters, the gatherers. We would be the ones staying up all night, stoking the fire. Put us in a classroom or a busy office and expect us to stare at a computer screen nine till five, of course we're going to struggle. Of course we're going to find it hard. Of course we're going to get overwhelmed and overthink every social encounter that we've had because we intrinsically think that we're different.

22:41And you have that realization that that's the case and that's what's going on and there's nothing actually wrong with you. You're not broken. You're just living in a neurotypical world and you're neurodivergent. Then you can be so much kinder to yourself. and when you're kinder to yourself, the knock-on effects of that is less anxiety. It is less stress and less shame and you find your tribe, you find your community and as a result, you end up being a happier and more productive person. Yeah, without a doubt and I just love that you've put so much focus certainly on your social media channels to talk about undiagnosed women because there's sort of I guess two prongs to this one is yes there are many many women out there who were either totally ignored or misdiagnosed as kids because many of the boys or young men getting diagnosed have the the big h the hyperactivity expression of adhd and it's more visible and it's there whereas many girls certainly in the classroom whether it's back in the day when we were kids or even now are being misdiagnosed or it's being completely overlooked because they're seen as daydreamers or they're just sort of looking out the window or they perhaps you know sort of seem to be the kids that are chatting more or not listening as well so we've got a whole influx of women now who are going oh wait this is really ringing true so it's really really brilliant you're focusing on it but equally we've now got this conversation of people going oh everyone's got ADHD today everyone's jumping on the bandwagon going oh you've got ADHD or or self-diagnosing ADHD.

24:18And that feels problematic, that there's that sort of retaliation to a really healthy conversation. I feel like that's making you even more passionate about really ensuring that women have equality in this conversation. Women and girls have been missed for too long. They didn't even think women could have ADHD until recently. How many women and girls have spent their whole life with this internalised hyperactivity, this anxiety, being labeled as too much, too sensitive. And they don't know why. They've spent their whole life masking, pretending to be someone that they're not. And what's the consequence of that?

25:01It's having no self-esteem, no self-respect, feeling like you don't belong. And then you get the diagnosis and you think, oh okay there's a reason there's a reason why i couldn't remember certain things there's a reason why i couldn't put my in a row everyone has adhd these days is a phrase that i hear a lot everyone doesn't have adhd these days i think we all forget stuff we all can lose our place in conversations we can all buy a domain and then lose interest in the idea a neurotypical will do this in little peaks and little waves. Someone with ADHD, it will be a mountain and then a deep dive.

25:49It's the extremes. It's the, okay, well, everyone turns up late to work sometimes, but does everyone turn up late so frequently that you end up getting fired and then you lose your income and then you can't pay your bills? Does everyone have such a disabling response to criticism that they don't know why all of their relationships have failed and then they stay up all night unable to sleep because they're continuously overanalyzing every conversation they've ever had does everyone overshare at social gatherings and then spend the next two weeks overanalyzing thinking that person thinks that they're too much but now hates them it's the continuousness of it all it's so extreme and it's why i'm so passionate about advocating for women and girls, as I said, they've been missed for too long.

26:38And then they get imposter syndrome because they have the pre-installed prejudice towards ADHD. So they get the diagnosis and they think, really? Do I really have ADHD? Do I really? It's my fault. It's all my fault that all of those terrible things happened. I think getting the diagnosis is a validating moment, finding your tribe, recognizing that there was a reason for all of the horrible things that happened in your life, and then starting to be kinder to yourself and starting to rebuild your self-esteem slowly and in a safe way, taking off the mask layer by layer and recognizing what was you, what was actually you, and what was a coping mechanism?

27:25What is actually part of your amazing personality and what was part of that mask that you've been wearing for so many years. And that's a process. And you have to be really, really gentle to yourself and really kind to yourself when you take off that mask. Because quite often, it can be a long way off from what you thought you really were. Because that mask is so entrenched. You've mirrored people for so many years. You've changed your personality. You've shape-shifted. You've adapted who you are in order to be more palatable for who you're with. And of course, the consequence of that over years and years is someone that has no self-esteem, no self-respect, no self-awareness of who they really are.

28:11You get the diagnosis or you become aware that you are neurodivergent and you take off the mask and you have to process all of those years of not knowing who you are. Be incredibly gentle to yourself when that happens during that process. And slowly navigate towards your tribe and finding community and recognizing that maybe there was a reason that the people that you so easily became friends with but then struggled to maintain, maybe there's a reason why they didn't stick around in your life. Maybe there's a reason why that relationship ended. Maybe there's a reason you should never have gotten that relationship.

28:48Maybe there's a reason you should never have started that job. Maybe you should have started a business. Maybe the idea of getting a job was part of the mask. And actually, you have this internalized entrepreneurialism and you have this creativity that was almost always held back because of societal pressures. Women and girls have been told that they should be nice and polite and well behaved, that they internalize the hyperactivity and it ends up in their heads. It's like five squirrels, highly caffeinated squirrels, barreling around up there. And of course, that's going to cause anxiety and overthinking.

29:27A million different thoughts pulling you in different directions, each one a different idea. It's the misunderstanding of what that internal chaos can look like to other people. Imagine you're in a relationship and you're having a day where you know you've got a million things to do, but the thought of trying to do any of them is so overwhelming that you are physically paralysed and you're sat on the sofa and you're unable to move. You can't do anything apart from scroll social media because in that moment you're so, so overwhelmed and your partner says, stop being lazy. Why are you so lazy? That's the consequence.

30:05That's the reality of undiagnosed ADHD in women and girls. The chaos that comes through lack of awareness and lack of understanding. do. I'm so fascinated by this unmasking because I think actually whether you're neurodivergent or not there is there is a sort of a nuanced element to all of us putting on a bit of a performance for other people and I think especially with women like you've just said Alex for us to be seen as good girls doing the right thing staying in line etc and this unmasking especially for neurodivergent people is so liberating not only because you get to work out who you really are and that's a very long process but also because the masking is so tiring exhausting because there is so much energy expelled from having to wear this mask the whole time and one thing that I feel really deeply passionate about especially for these two weekends that we put on the happy place festival is that hopefully all of us can walk around this weekend and the weekend that we had in Chiswick unmasked and just be ourselves.

31:15And that might mean being really, really quiet and just finding a corner where you sit on your own. It might mean telling the person that you're with that you're feeling a bit anxious because there's a lot of people walking around. Or it might be trying something new and feeling really overwhelmed and leaving the session a little bit early. I really hope that everybody and I say this for myself as well because I have to you know walk around and kind of meet lots of new people and the whole thing's quite overwhelming I hope that we can all walk around and feel like we don't have to put on a show or an act and that we can just be ourselves and I and I really love that what with what you're doing Alex you get into the nitty-gritty of all of this and that it's it's so it's so helpful for so many people to hear the detailed, nuanced expression of what neurodivergence looks like for any given person.

32:07One thing I do want to quickly say is there was one thing you said on Instagram where I was like, I didn't know that was a thing. I thought that was just something in my head. Waiting mode. When you've got a social event in the evening, we've been asked out for dinner or whatever, and you spend every goddamn second that day in waiting mode, anticipating that thing. and you know you don't want to go you don't want to go you wish that you said when you were asked I'm busy I'm not I'm lying but that waiting mode is so hellish and awful and I just love how you're articulating all of this to the masses it's absolutely brilliant I want to say a massive thank you for everything you're doing but also for being here at the happy place festival please give it up everyone for Alex Partridge

32:57oh Alex that was so cool I just love that Alex has taken himself off to learn as much as humanly possible not only to aid himself and equip himself better with tools but also he's sharing this stuff, this is how I discovered him as I said, I discovered him online by just sort of scrolling on social media and seeing him talking about ADHD and I was so drawn in, so interested. And I love the way that he's delivering these sort of little bite-sized nuggets. And it was just fascinating again to hear about his own personal experience, but also about ADHD and neurodivergence as a whole. And it's something we need to keep talking about.

33:39So I bloody love that. All right, next week, an athlete whose major injury has really changed the way she speaks to herself. Lots of good stuff for all of us to take on board about resilience in that one. So do, do stick around for that one next week. So I'll catch you there. In the meantime, have a beautiful week. A huge thank you to Brilliant Alex, to the producer Anushka Tate at Happy Play Studios and to you, you amazing lot.

34:40We'll be right back.

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