Are you ditching your values to fit in? Todd Rose on avoiding peer pressure

0:00Fearne Cotton: Hello, I'm Fearne Cotton and this is Happy Place, the show that supports you in forming your own opinions. Today, I'm chatting to Todd Rose.

0:10Todd Rose: This concept of authenticity is a gateway to a really great life. I think we're so used to trying to be likable that what we really go for is fitting in. Fitting in is, I'll accept you if. Belonging is, I am accepted, valued and even loved for who I am. We like to think that we want everyone to agree with us. Now, look, nothing wrong with that. When people agree with you, that feels good. It turns out that's not really the primary motivation. It's actually that you want to be understood.

0:39Fearne Cotton: If there was ever a time to be having this chat with Todd, it's now. It is a very strange time that we're living in. And it doesn't take someone who's obsessed with watching the news to tell you that we're in a very divisive place. and one that can feel at times distressing and hopeless and leave you just feeling like, I don't know, untrusting of other people or like everybody's at each other and arguing or there's just a lot of hatred out there. Now, I'm not going to sit here and give anyone solutions as to how we solve any of this stuff. I'm like you. I'm just sat there going, what the hell is going on.

1:22Fearne Cotton: But what we can do, I think, is dive into the psychology behind it. That interests me greatly. And Todd is our man. Todd is a scientist, a professor and a social entrepreneur. He co-founded and is the CEO of Populous, a non-partisan think tank dedicated to building a world where everyone has the chance to live a really fulfilling life in a thriving society. That's what we want, right? I think that's what all of us want. All of us just want to live in a lovely life of our own, but in a thriving society that feels cohesive, like a collective. And I feel like we're very far from that. And that's why this book interested me greatly.

2:09Fearne Cotton: His book is called Collective Illusions. And it's fascinating. It looks at how we end up either in a collective thinking in a certain way, and how we're manipulated to think in a certain way or how we simply appear pressured into thinking a certain way and often how a lot of the time we assume things about other people and how they think but we are entirely wrong. And this doesn't just apply to societal and political issues. It applies to everyday life. Like everyday, the smallest decisions that we're making, How so much of this is informed by the pressure of what we assume everyone else is doing or what we believe is the norm.

2:52Fearne Cotton: Honestly, this one relates to everybody. There's not a single person that this chat won't touch in some way. So we really dug into lots of interesting places in this chat, like why as humans we want to belong as a group, which again impacts us hugely. The difference between private opinion and public opinions. that is a big one and and this is something that he has got great stats on he's done a lot of research into that exact topic and why and this is huge why silencing yourself could have implications on your physical health you want to get your backyard summer ready but you don't want to break the bank wayfair gets it planning on dining al fresco or relaxing poolside wayfair has everything you need to prep your space.

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4:34Fearne Cotton: Right, let's do it. Here's the show.

4:57Fearne Cotton: Todd, it is so lovely to have you not only in the UK, but on the podcast today.

5:02Todd Rose: It's so great to be here.

5:03Fearne Cotton: I loved reading this book. What a fascinating read, Collective Illusions. We've done this podcast for over eight years now, and I don't think we've gone anywhere near this subject matter. We've probably talked around it.

5:15Todd Rose: Listen, you've been talking about the solutions for a while. Yes. So that's why I was very excited to talk to you.

5:20Fearne Cotton: I'm really, really looking forward to digging into it. First of all, just as a broad sweep, what is a collective illusion?

5:28Todd Rose: So look, it's basically groupthink, but you're wrong about the group. so like more formally it's a phenomenon where most people in a group end up going along with something yeah that they don't privately agree with only because they incorrectly think most

5:43Fearne Cotton: everybody else agrees with it which actually probably informs much more of our lives than

5:47Todd Rose: we care to believe what's so funny about this is as scientists we've known about this phenomenon for a hundred years we've been saying it's only been since the advent of social media that these have become like a runaway train. Because think about like, you're wrong about your group, right? It's one thing to be wrong about another group. This is the group that matters to you and you want to belong. But like, and this is what's so interesting about these illusions, right? Like how they happen. Because you might think like, well, so is someone manipulating me? Which can happen, but it's actually just the technology slamming into our biology.

6:25Todd Rose: And if you don't mind, I'll just give you the quick short version of this. How does this happen? Yeah. Is like we're hardwired as human beings to want to belong.

6:34Fearne Cotton: Yeah.

6:35Todd Rose: To be part of groups. Right. My background is in neuroscience. I mean, there's like a fundamental truth. We're a social species. OK. But to get that belonging, you'd actually have to know what your group believes. Right. Because otherwise, what are you conforming to? Yes. So here's what's crazy. You'd think like, OK, if belonging is so important, then your brain must have some really sophisticated way of figuring out what does my group believe. Turns out it's the flimsiest shortcut imaginable.

7:00Fearne Cotton: It's wild.

7:01Todd Rose: Your brain assumes the loudest voices repeated the most are the majority.

7:07Fearne Cotton: And that is mimicked so literally on social media. We listen to the loudest voices. We look for the biggest, boldest accounts and we're like, they must be right.

7:16Todd Rose: They must be right. And the thing is, is that shortcut evolved. So it must have worked back in the day, but you put it into a social media environment. So if you look at any given platform, let's just take what was Twitter. So research has shown that 80 % of all the content on that platform is created by only 10 % of the users. And it turns out that 10 % isn't remotely representative of the general public. They're extreme on almost every social issue. So if you think about this, So just imagine the problem. 10 % of people hold some fringe crazy view, which is almost always going to be true in society.

7:55Todd Rose: You can find 10%. Of course. Yes. The earth's flat. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We never went to the moon, whatever. And it's 10%, but you think it's 80%. Wow. So unless you're willing to go against your group, which we can talk about all the reasons why biologically it's hard to do, then you'll just say nothing, right? You'll self-silence or you'll start lying. You'll start saying exactly what you think you're supposed to say to be with the group.

8:22Fearne Cotton: And at worst, believing it?

8:24Todd Rose: Well, so this is the trick, right? At first, you don't believe it. Right. Right. So I'll give you an example from the states that we tracked with our research. There was the big movement of defund the police, right? And the folks on the left publicly, 60 % said, oh yeah, we want to defund the police. It was 9 % in private. So this is what we do. We do private opinion research. Get around this. And 9%, I was like, okay, but they knew that there was a right answer, that the fringes in their political movement were making these very loud claims. People were like, yeah, I guess I want to defund the police.

8:57Todd Rose: You're like, you don't. You really don't want to. And so we've been studying this phenomenon of collective illusions because you think, okay, is it just a couple of topics? Well, in the States where we have almost all of our data, there's over 100 issues where we're just wrong about what our own groups believe.

9:16Fearne Cotton: I bet there are millions. Like it's tiny moments in every day.

9:21Todd Rose: It's exactly right.

9:22Fearne Cotton: And we think that we're these autominus creatures walking around going, I've decided to do this. I've decided to do that. And you realize from everything from the clothes you're wearing to the food you're eating to who you're voting for is more than likely influenced by this manner of thinking. So your studies are fascinating because you do these private studies. So that involves you explaining to individuals, this is just me and you. This is a private study.

9:47Todd Rose: So we have to create that experience. And so quantitatively, right? So the trick with all these methodologies, they're called private opinion methods, is people have to have anonymity. They have to know that there's literally no way I can know what you're saying and what we call like plausible deniability. Yeah. So there's this funny phenomenon when you're taking polls and surveys. You sort of think, what if someone burst in the room as I was answering something? Like, it's dumb. It's never going to happen. But people are like, oh, you might know that I clicked that I agree with this. So we have these sophisticated methods that actually build that anonymity and plausible liability.

10:20Todd Rose: And we didn't invent the methods. That's the way I can tell you they're good. Yeah. Smarter people than I am invented them. We just were the first to deploy them at scale on social issues. Wow. And so like I'll give you an example in the States. We predicted Trump's final vote percentage within a half a percentage point six months in advance. And no one was even anywhere near that because there were segments of like Gen Z that were lying about their willingness to vote for him. They knew they weren't supposed to say they would. And so they were saying, oh, no, I wouldn't. No, I'm not voting for him.

10:55Todd Rose: It's like, oh, actually, you're going to. Wow. And so it's like most political issues these days are under these illusions because, you know, everybody's like right at each other. But it's crazy. It's not just these big issues. It's like our whole lives are shot through with millions of these examples. And it's like I could see why maybe if your job depended on it, you maybe don't speak up. I mean, I don't think that's a good thing, but I can at least, you know, you don't want to lose your job. You've got to provide for your family. But it's like we've gotten so used to living in the lie that we just do it over the most mundane, small things.

11:33Todd Rose: Yeah. And we sort of think, oh, what's the problem? Yeah. Do you know what?

11:38Fearne Cotton: I lived and breathed this when I first started therapy because I reckon it took me near to a year to actually say what I really wanted to say in therapy. To a therapist.

11:49Todd Rose: To a therapist. Is that amazing?

11:50Fearne Cotton: Who I knew would keep me completely anonymous. who I knew would be professional and private and also I knew wouldn't judge me. And even if she did, I shouldn't have cared because it's a paid transaction between me and a professional who I want to help me. But I reckon it took a good year for me to really start unfiltering and saying things I was embarrassed about, things I was terrified about, and also my true feelings around certain things that were really plaguing me because I wanted to come across as this decent person. Yeah, right.

12:22Todd Rose: So, I mean, it's really important. And I think that we should all give ourselves a little bit of just grace that it's like, how do we get here where we end up misrepresenting the things that matter to us? It's like when we've studied this, at first I thought it was all going to be this sort of cancel culture. That's a small percentage. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Most of the time, it's just two real motives. One is most people are decent people and they don't want to offend. So imagine if I think that you really don't agree with me on issues. I was like, you know, I'm not going to say anything.

12:53Fearne Cotton: No, no, no. Yeah.

12:54Todd Rose: Why rock the boat? Exactly.

12:56Fearne Cotton: I don't want to ruin their day.

12:57Todd Rose: No, we're having a good time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But in reality, it turns out with our private opinion, we're like, oh, actually, odds are you actually agree and we're just not even talking anymore. Or you're saying, yeah, yeah, I agree. I agree with this other thing that I don't really believe. And you're like, yeah, me too. Right. We're all just lying to each other. It's shocking. Right. So that's the first one. And then the second one is this broader desire to please. Right. Which, as you've written about, comes from a lot of different places, but not just. Right. And it's but the thing I think is fascinating with you is I think, you know, you had mentioned in your writings.

13:32Fearne Cotton: I can't believe you read my book, but lol. Great. Amazing. Thank you so much.

13:35Todd Rose: I really like them. I really did. Thank you. Our team read them.

13:39Fearne Cotton: Oh, thank you.

13:41Todd Rose: But this idea of where, you know, you didn't quite say it this way, but I think it's what you meant. Like almost from an early age, you're being paid. It's monetized likability.

13:51Fearne Cotton: Yep.

13:51Todd Rose: Right. And so it's like without even realizing it, you had not just the social incentive, which everybody has, but, you know, have a financial and status incentive to be likable. Yes. Which is just means be like them.

14:05Fearne Cotton: Yeah. Right. Yes, exactly.

14:06Todd Rose: Without even thinking about it, you can suddenly get into this path of most of the decisions are not really about an inward reflection on who you are, like what you actually believe, what you prefer. But it's like almost like calibrated to the audience. And, you know, I could for me, it really struck me as like, yeah, that's something we all go through, but just not with that added. Like all the incentives for you were pointing toward be likable.

14:35Fearne Cotton: Completely.

14:36Todd Rose: And I think that in our broader society, I think women in general have that pressure. We tolerate men being less likable.

14:45Fearne Cotton: Yeah. Right? Yeah. You can be in a position of power and be authoritarian and no one bats an eyelid. But I think for most women who say, you need to do this. I don't want you to do that. It's like, what a bitch. It's just the general consensus is that they don't have that voice.

14:59Todd Rose: Exactly. So when you combine these things, some of us feel pressure. There's real pressure saying, hey, you've got the wrong view. This could get you canceled. But then we're just decent people who don't want to offend. But remember, we're wrong. Or I need to be likable. And so when we look at the kinds of people who are the most susceptible to these illusions, not surprisingly young people, but CEOs. Because if you're a CEO, like a CEO, she might say, look, I care about my customers and I care about my employees. So you're trying to be sensitive to what they want, but you're susceptible to the loudest voices repeated the most.

15:38Fearne Cotton: So then you mitigate what you actually believe in the first place.

15:40Todd Rose: And then politicians. Because it's like, I just want to get reelected. Yeah. And so we did this, you know, the defund the police movement that shared that example. We actually spent time when Biden was president of the US with Biden and his team because they were like, well, we read the book. What should we be thinking about? And we're like, this defund the police movement. It's just not true. and they're like, oh, no, no, no, no. That one, you're wrong. We get so many calls. I'm like, right. From like 10 people who are really upset. Yeah. And they're calling you over and over again. You know what I mean?

16:15Todd Rose: So it feels real. And this is the hardest thing with collective illusions is we now live in a time when you cannot trust your brain to tell you what your group thinks. You're just going to be wrong, but it feels right. so we're really trapped by our biology here where you know when we're told when we do like brain imaging studies when i say like we have this bias to belong it is shocking like it's not just a psychological thing like study after study shows you just being told that your opinion aligns with your group triggers a dopamine reward response like the same areas your brain that hard drugs activate.

16:54Fearne Cotton: Yeah.

16:54Todd Rose: Like it's powerful. Yes. And conversely, when we tell you that your opinions misalign to your group, it triggers what we call an error signal in your brain, this cascading electrical signal that's meant to disrupt attention, memory. I know that feeling. Yeah. It is literally like something's wrong. Yeah. Pay attention.

17:13Fearne Cotton: You know, your nervous system is being electrocuted. It's the worst feeling.

17:17Todd Rose: It's the worst feeling because it's meant to be bad because something's wrong. Your brain doesn't know what to do. Pay attention, right? Just figure it out.

17:27Fearne Cotton: And this is prehistoric stuff. Like, you know, we needed to be in tribes to not get eaten by a tiger kind of thing.

17:32Todd Rose: Oh, for sure. Listen, you do not survive as a human being by yourself. No, you don't.

17:36Fearne Cotton: No.

17:36Todd Rose: And so - We're so basic. It's so basic. And if you think about it, it's so valuable. Like being hardwired to be part of a group, you survive better as a pack. Like that's just we're not from a strength perspective would be eaten alive back in the day, right? Yeah. So you band together. But then that also allows cooperation, which humans are uniquely capable of, right? And you can do way more together if you actually cooperate. Yeah. So how would you incentivize that? You select for those things that make me more likely to actually take into account your interests, your things. But that means I'm sensitive to what you think and feel.

18:13Todd Rose: Yes. Through empathy and things like this. And so that's great. And you're hardwired to really be aligned to that. But then like anything, it can be misused and abused and it can become a mechanism of control.

18:27Fearne Cotton: Yes.

18:28Todd Rose: And the consequence, and I think we could talk about this, like we lose our authenticity. And that term has been used and abused as well. Oh, my God. To the point where I almost don't even like saying it.

18:38Fearne Cotton: I don't even know what it means anymore. Like it's so overused. I'm sort of obsessed with the idea of it because I don't think any of us really have a clue what it means. No. Or people go, oh, you're like, you're so authentic on Instagram, whatever. It's like, what does it even mean? We don't know who we are anymore.

18:56Todd Rose: And I think most people at best, that's just a word we use for, I don't think you're being fake. But like, do you know what I mean? It's almost like we're so used to the Instagram life that someone who even reveals something slightly flawed.

19:09Fearne Cotton: And they don't wear makeup. Oh my God, you're so authentic.

19:12Todd Rose: Because at best we're like, well, you're not getting anything out of that. So that must be closer to who you think you are. Yes. But I think it's really unfortunate because this concept of authenticity is a gateway to a really great life. you know, it's really important. Most positive psychologists, the humanistic psychologists saw authenticity as literally the ultimate goal.

19:34Fearne Cotton: And how can that, but if we, if we somehow land on it, which seems almost impossible in this day and age, what benefit can we see? So this is it.

19:42Todd Rose: So first of all, I'll give you my definition of it, which I think holds up in the research. It's, it's not that you're right, right? Authenticity and all the benefits that accrue from it is about the public version of yourself aligning as closely to who you believe you are in private. Yes. Now, again, you could be wrong. That's okay, right? So if today I think I really like chocolate ice cream and don't like vanilla ice cream, and so you say, let's have ice cream. I say, okay, I want chocolate. And then I taste it. I'm like, oh, I don't actually like this. I like vanilla. I wasn't inauthentic the first time.

20:14Fearne Cotton: No.

20:15Todd Rose: Right? And so it's, again, we tend to think it's like, well, how can you be authentic? People, it's hard to know yourself. Yeah, it is really hard to know yourself. But it's like in any given moment, you know, like, you know, when you're not being quite honest, right?

20:27Fearne Cotton: Like,

20:27Todd Rose: I mean, sometimes we can feel like, yeah, it's like, listen, there's plenty of times where we fool ourselves. So let's not worry about that right now. But the times when you just like, yeah, no, I didn't say anything there. Or I went along with this. And I don't really agree.

20:39Fearne Cotton: You actually totally compromise your values, which we've all done over the years, especially in teenhood. You know, that's one of the parts of growing up, like you just ditch your values.

20:47Todd Rose: And what's shocking to me is I think if people understood what the research shows about the personal and social costs of inauthenticity and the upside of being authentic, it would become, I believe, like the most important thing that we strive for. So I'll give you an example. Longitudinal research on this shows that this was done for women. I'm assuming it would hold for men, but this study was about women, that levels of self-silencing, so withholding what I believe is a major predictor of cardiovascular disease for women. Like strokes, heart attacks, like these things.

21:27Fearne Cotton: Because of the tension that your body's holding?

21:30Todd Rose: And the elevated baseline levels of cortisol.

21:33Fearne Cotton: Wow.

21:34Todd Rose: Cortisol is a fight or flight kind of triggering mechanism, right? It's meant to be for survival. In short bursts, it's a really good organizer of energy in your body. but circulating in your blood at elevated levels it breaks down blood vessels it's like drano i mean

21:50Fearne Cotton: this is the connection between you know how we're thinking what we're saying not saying and the physical manifestation which you know maybe 20 30 years ago would have been seen as woo woo

22:00Todd Rose: but now we've got the science isn't it funny how that works this adds up like it i always love that you know what was woo woo and now suddenly is like well we know actually this is just true you know we're catching up to that and it's um but you know you think so the other thing that was interesting in this particular study i'm thinking about is if you look at mental health issues particularly around like anxiety depression eating disorders so women tend to be overrepresented in those yeah i've done all three yeah right so it turns out that if you control for levels of self-silencing because women self-silence more yeah it actually they're not statistically different anymore men and women so it's like it's contributing directly to the cardiovascular problems but a whole bunch of other secondary effects so we sit here and like riddled with anxiety you know not feeling good about ourselves and it's like it's we don't realize that some of this is directly attributable to these small decisions we make every day yes to just not

23:03Fearne Cotton: live in our truth at all yeah and of course that builds up and becomes can be catastrophic in a physical sense.

23:10Todd Rose: It becomes habit, right? We just do it. We don't even, like, the number of times when you think like, wait, I just went along with it. Like, there was no even a reason. I could have said what I think. There was no threat.

23:20Fearne Cotton: No.

23:21Todd Rose: But it's just habit.

23:22Fearne Cotton: And also, I guess, what you have to be able to do or at least try and practice, which I've been trying to put, flex these muscles in the last year, is when you stop self-silencing or you say something contradictory, oh, I don't want to do that. That's not for me. or I don't want to partake in this, you have to be able to ride out the other side of it, which is a slight discomfort, which in the moment feels horrible, but it's much better than years of punching my jaw. I'm absolutely livid or I'm resentful or whatever it is, because we're not saying our bit.

23:55Todd Rose: And I 100 % agree. And you think about, if you just think about like, okay, that unwillingness to respectfully disagree or Or it's just, you know, there's something that matters to me and I'm not saying it. You think, okay, I don't want that. Like, I think you got it exactly right. There's a moment of discomfort. It's just perceived. Yeah. And how many times, you know, you write about this, like times where you're like, you know what? No, sorry. Birthday party. Just, you can't.

24:20Fearne Cotton: Don't want to go.

24:21Todd Rose: Yeah. And it's like, there's a respectful way you gave a, which is always a justification. Yes. Right. So if you say, no, thank you. No, I don't want to go. That could be like, oh, so you don't like me. Yeah.

24:32Fearne Cotton: It's how you say it. The tone. Yes.

24:34Todd Rose: And it turns out, oh, okay. So that was going to be okay. But that you're worried, like, what will they think? And that like, want to fill the air, especially when they're in person, you just want to like... Anything, unless it's awkward silence. It feels awkward. But if you realize like, for me, I will perseverate on the thing I didn't. And it just, you'll hold it inside and you become resentful. It's just the price you pay on the back end for avoiding that moment of discomfort. Once you're aware of that, it's just like, this is ridiculous. Why would I ever choose that?

25:09Fearne Cotton: I mean, you could walk through, having heard you even just talk for this few moments, you could now go about and walk through the rest of your day, analyzing every decision you make, everything you don't say, everything that you do align with, even though it feels a bit off. And it could get very interesting, I think. Very interesting. You could get a notepad and write

25:30Todd Rose: down a million things you've noticed so this is exactly what i would suggest people do is before you try to change it right because it's awkward just do that like document don't even try to adjust it just be like oh you know what i didn't actually say that and i felt this way or i wanted to do i i wanted to go to lunch here i just assumed everyone that i didn't say anything it's okay and and it's okay maybe that's fine maybe it's you you liked keeping the peace yeah But just document it. It's shocking. Shocking how much of our lives are just literally we're back to your life. We don't have the financial incentive and yet we're still led around by likable.

26:12Fearne Cotton: Yes. Do you know what's so sort of another layer? And I wonder if this ever comes up in any level of research is I sometimes have this feeling that I'm not sure if I'm a good person or not. And if I just do the right thing or say the right thing, that is somehow proof to myself that I'm a good person. Because I think we're told so often, and we might not again believe it, that if you think in this way, if you vote in this way, if you do this certain thing, if you speak in a certain way, if you act in a certain way at work or as a woman or whatever category you're looking at, that you are then an acceptable human.

26:50Fearne Cotton: Whatever that means, you know, it's all just we're fed it and then we believe it. And I think often we use it as a marker of like where our moral compass sits and just that fundamental. I want to be a good person, but I need some sort of proof to myself that I am. And I think that sometimes stops us from doing the thing that we actually really want to do.

27:13Todd Rose: Yeah. No, this is it. This is right. It's like I think about it. If you if you didn't want to be a good person, it wouldn't affect you. No, yeah, you just live free. So it's coming from a really, kind of be nice once in a while. Yes. Just flip a switch for a day.

27:26Fearne Cotton: Do you know what we actually had on? One of the most fascinating guests was a lady called Patrick Gagne, who is a sociopath, clinically a sociopath, and also now helps other people with sociopathy and living, you know, she's a mom. Oh, wonderful and intelligent, obviously, and just fascinating to talk to. And she has a husband and children, and lives a perfectly regular life. But I often think I've got like too much empathy, too much of that going on, which can cause me immense amounts of pain in all sorts of situations with other human beings that she doesn't get. And she's like, I feel sorry for you.

28:06Fearne Cotton: Like I hear you and I get this. I feel bad for you because she doesn't have that. She can make decisions from a place of, I want to do this and I'm going to do it and has learned how to live in the confines of society, to rub along with other people, do her job to help other people and to feel like a sense of purpose, even though she doesn't have that immense empathy. That's the opposite of what we're talking about. That's the opposite.

28:31Todd Rose: I'll tell you, while there's days where I'd be like, boy, that'd be nice, it would be miserable. I'd rather start from the place of empathy and try to dial that back a little bit.

28:43Fearne Cotton: And how would you do that? If people out there are like, God, you know, I've spoke to so many women more so who are like, I am drowning in trying to keep everybody happy, spinning a million plates and doing the right thing. I think it's always the should rather than this is what I want to do. I should do this. How do we break free from that?

29:01Todd Rose: Yeah, right. And shoulds just could with shame. Yes, totally. Here's the thing. Let's step back and realize, okay, so in the case we're in now, you should always start by assuming you're probably wrong about what other people think anyway. Okay. So just imagine if that's true, then how would you behave? If I'm sitting here thinking, look, I'm pretty sure you don't agree with me on some issue. So it's important to me, but I'm not going to bring it up. Yeah. If I told you you're probably wrong, it's like, wait, so we could have bonded over that?

29:34Fearne Cotton: Yeah, we could have had a great conversation.

29:35Todd Rose: Like, yeah, we could be friends. So we're just not going to do that. Right. So it's like just recognize that that that feeling of sort of groupthink and getting pulled into conformity is bad enough as it is. But again, you're about to conform to something that the group or other people don't probably even want.

29:54Fearne Cotton: The best example I've heard of this is when you talk about this study in the Netherlands and it's a basic hot or not. Can you just talk us through?

30:01Todd Rose: Because I think this is such a great way of discussing it. My colleague did this because when we talk about we have this bias to conform, to belong, he wanted to know how far does that go? Because you could see certain things having conformity bias. So he tried to pick the most subjective thing he could think of, which is who you think is attractive. And we all know, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Yes. Right? We all see people like, really? You think he's good looking? There's hope for all of us, right? But so clever study. he brings people and puts them in an fMRI scanner and scans their brain while he's doing this task.

30:39Todd Rose: It's literally just a couple of hundred faces and your job is to play hot or not.

30:43Fearne Cotton: Yeah.

30:44Todd Rose: Right. It's really like a scale of one to five. How attractive do you think they are? Okay. So the task goes like this face comes up. You're like, oh, that's a five pretty hot right after you give your your score. A number appears above it in the scanner that tells you what the average score was for everyone who'd done the study before you. So that's a group. You don't even know these people. You'll never meet them. So why should that matter? But it does. Okay. Here's the great news. That group doesn't exist. It's made up. Okay. So here you are plugging along. You say five. Now it's all rigged because it's all made up.

31:24Todd Rose: For a quarter of the time, it makes it so that you and your group are identical. You said five. Oh, your group says five.

31:32Fearne Cotton: Yeah, well done you. You got it right.

31:34Todd Rose: You got it right. And then a quarter of the time, you say five, it goes to the opposite extreme. Oh, though, people thought it was a one. You think that's good looking, right? That's it. And then you go through a couple hundred of these. And at the end, they go, oh, shoot. Sorry about that. For whatever reason, your responses weren't recorded. So if we gave you a little more money, would you just quickly, you don't need to scan your brain. Could you just quickly give us your responses? And they randomize the images, again. And you just get, okay, so here's what's cool. When you're in the scanner and that five and five shows up, that triggers that dopamine reward response.

32:11Todd Rose: It's like a, it's just a drug.

32:14Fearne Cotton: Everything's aligned in the world.

32:15Todd Rose: It is the greatest feeling ever. Okay. When you're told you're against your group, we see that error signal cascading. It's so aversive. It feels awful. It feels like something's really wrong. Okay. So not surprisingly, when they were asked to do the task again, And almost inevitably, they moved their scores to be closer to the group. They didn't even know they did it. Like you interview them afterwards, they'd say, no, I didn't. How funny. No, and the thing is, is they don't remember.

32:43Fearne Cotton: It's like a hundred faces going pretty quick. Your brain's doing the work without you even knowing.

32:48Todd Rose: Nope, that five was the wrong answer. Like that face, that's attractive or it's not attractive. You thought it is, you're wrong.

32:56Fearne Cotton: It's mad.

32:57Todd Rose: It's crazy. So it's like, so we don't want to lose, like the human connection is part of what makes life worth living. And so what I would say is that we can talk about sort of how you get back on that path. But just realizing that like we tend to think of like that desire for authenticity is somehow at odds with our desire for connection. Like if I'm authentic, it'll ruin my belonging, right? But the research is crystal clear. That's the exact opposite. Because instead of belonging, you think about this. You know, like, this is kind of a weird analogy, but like, you know, like, so we've evolved to with eating, for example, you start eating and then you get feeling like you're full and it tells you to stop.

33:44Todd Rose: And you know, over time, the food that was available to us was healthy and you're getting nutrition. We don't feel when you get nutrition, you just get it. now you get McDonald's and all this stuff and you get, you feel full, but it takes a while until you realize you're not actually getting any nutrition, right? And it wrecks your life. I think this is how it is with belonging now. I think we're so used to trying to be likable that what we really go for is fitting in. And we think that's the same thing as belonging.

34:16Fearne Cotton: It's a poor version of it. It is.

34:18Todd Rose: It's an empty calories version. It gives you something. Let's just be clear.

34:21Fearne Cotton: like i'd rather fit in it's junk belonging it's junk belonging because if you think about it like

34:27Todd Rose: fitting in is i'll accept you if right and again in your book you went through all the conditions you'll like me if you know what i mean so those are all this conditional stuff belonging is i am accepted valued and even loved for who i am yes and it doesn't mean you don't have work to do it doesn't mean that you're a great person all the time right but there's just something about and And we all know that if you're in some kind of relationship with a friend, a partner, a sibling, a parent, where you just feel like, you know what? It almost doesn't matter what I did.

34:59Fearne Cotton: Yeah. They'll still love me. Yeah. Yeah.

35:02Todd Rose: There's like no greater feeling in the world.

35:04Fearne Cotton: The best feeling.

35:05Todd Rose: And you only get that when you're authentic.

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36:44Fearne Cotton: But if we go back to our teen years, a time when you, it's all based on conditions. There's very little understanding at that point that I can do whatever I want and my peer group will still accept me. It is for most of us, the case is we copy each other's hair, clothes, habits, music, taste. I mean, I used to date boys and I would ditch all of my music, my CDs and go, I'm just going to listen to the band they like. And I would hate their bands. This is absolute shit. But you would just listen to it and go along with it because you desperately want to be part of something. You talk in your book about sticking tobacco in your lip because all your mates are doing it.

37:23Fearne Cotton: And then you find out down the line they weren't even enjoying it.

37:25Todd Rose: Yeah, we're just all doing the stupid stuff. Like, it's so ridiculous. But what's interesting about this is, again, this kind of mechanism, what's valuable about it is social learning. So this kind of like, wait, I'm going to imitate this stuff. It's like, I can learn things with not the hard way. Like, you know what I mean? In fact, if I'm in some faraway country lost in a jungle and I'm like, I'm hungry and there's someone who's local and they're like, yeah, I know those look like apples. Don't eat them. I'm not going to be like, what will you know? I'm like, you probably know. And it's just smart.

38:01Todd Rose: So humans are exquisitely good at extracting information from the experiences of others and sharing that. And that bubbles all the way up to culture and things like this. So that's good. So it's okay to be like, I tried on different music.

38:17Fearne Cotton: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

38:18Todd Rose: I did it for a boy.

38:19Fearne Cotton: But I tried it on.

38:20Todd Rose: As long as you realize it's like, I'm sampling.

38:24Fearne Cotton: Yes.

38:25Todd Rose: And I'm getting something out of that. But it's like, it's very different because I'm sure there's occasions where you were like, it turned out I kind of like that music.

38:32Fearne Cotton: Yeah, yeah, of course you learn, like you say. And also, I think there is an element like the jungle analogy of like picking which food you're going to eat. It is a safety issue. I think you do feel emotionally safe or unsafe. And I even have it, I'm much more aware of it at this point in my life where I could be in a group or in a social setting. And I just think, I don't feel safe. There's something about this where I just feel like this is sketchy. and I'm not actually in danger, but my nervous system is firing off on all cylinders. And I'm like, I don't feel safe. I'm going to leave and I will just leave and walk out now.

39:05Fearne Cotton: I would have stayed before and just felt like I was literally being electrocuted all night. But now I'm like, I'm out. It is like a safety thing.

39:13Todd Rose: No, I mean, for sure. And that's the thing is that if you just think over evolutionary time, it was like you were at risk. And so we are exquisitely sensitive to the slightest like ostracization yes like oh we're about to get kicked out yeah we're about to get kicked out yeah um and our brains will read cues like crazy it turns out we're not terribly good at reading the cues no because most of our um safety issues are psychological not i mean there are some real it's of you're in danger yes but psychological danger is every bit as real to your brain. And so it's okay. It's like, okay, look, I feel like I'm in danger.

39:54Todd Rose: And it's like, just being aware. It's like being aware and being a little generous with yourself. Like, oh, this is how my brain works. And it's good for survival, not so good for thriving.

40:06Fearne Cotton: Yes.

40:07Todd Rose: And your brain doesn't care that you're happy. This is what I was like. You want to be happy? Your brain does not care. Your brain has one goal, which is survival. That's it.

40:17Fearne Cotton: That's going to override everything, unless you're a particularly strong character.

40:20Todd Rose: Exactly.

40:21Fearne Cotton: The examples of strong character in popular culture are interesting, or just culture in general. You've either got people that stick their head above the parapet and say the thing that no one else is saying. If we look at like the emperor's new clothes kind of fable, in those situations, when one person puts their hand up and says, this is bullshit, or I don't agree, we often see a collective assault on that person. They're cancelled, they're gone. I mean, sometimes people are saying unbelievably awful things, but if they're truly coming from a place where they believe that there is injustice or something's not right, often we see that person cancelled or everybody's against them or whatever situation it is.

41:02Fearne Cotton: And we think, oh God, I'm never doing that. There is no way I could, like, I've just seen that happen. I'm just going to keep quiet over here. And it silences us further. Yet, on the other end of the spectrum, we get people who pop up in culture like David Bowie. Somebody that decided to dress with a big gold circle on his head and huge big circular trousers or orange mohawk. Nobody else was doing that. And he at that time thought, I don't care. I'm going to do the one thing that nobody else is doing. And he was celebrated. What the hell's going on there?

41:37Todd Rose: Actually, these are related in ways that are really important. And it's why we literally gravitate toward authenticity. Yes. It is so attractive because we're just like, I wish I could do that. I wish I dared to do that. You don't even want to be him. You want to be like him.

41:54Fearne Cotton: Yeah.

41:54Todd Rose: You want to be around him because there's just something magnetic about people who are like, again, you're not an asshole. It's not being contrary just to be contrary. No. Like, it's just like, he's doing his thing and he clearly likes it. He's not doing it for you. Right. And there's something so attractive about it. So attractive about it. They're my favorite people. Yes, because.

42:16Fearne Cotton: Your Tilda Swinton's, your David Bowie's like, I want, I want that.

42:19Todd Rose: Just like, you know, I love sports and like we see peak human achievement and you're in awe. We're in awe of people who live authentically. Yeah. Because it's hard and we really want that deep down. and yet like how quickly we're just like but i don't i don't want to that's too costly to me i can't like i want to belong i don't want to like i'll accept the fitting in is authenticity always hard it's not once it becomes habit think about everything it's like when you change any behavior it's hard at first yes not because what you're going to is wrong or this it's just because

42:55Fearne Cotton: your brain is just trying to be efficient yeah right and it's like well wait this has worked

43:00Todd Rose: for us so far. And you're like, yeah, but I'm not happy. And again, remember your brain doesn't care. We're still alive. What's the problem? Right. And you're like, but I'd like to be more right. I'd like to grow. I'd like to have a purpose. I'd like to have good relationships. All of those things, all of the stuff that makes for a good life in one form or another requires higher levels of authenticity. And what's so interesting is like, if you take the relationships, The best relationships in research are ones based on authenticity and the promotion of that. It's just a fact. The best kind of groups are ones that engender real belonging.

43:38Todd Rose: If you're a part of something, you're like, that's like your ride or die group where you're just like, it doesn't matter.

43:44Fearne Cotton: And that doesn't mean your ride or die group isn't a group of people that, oh, we all agree. No. Because I think that's the fundamental difference. You know, how honest can I be? But there's people that I know. Not that honest. Exactly. It's like, well, in this conversation. But if, you can't trick me with that one, there's cameras. But if they're, look, I know people and they're in a group and it's like, oh, they're my people. We all are like, like we all agree. And it's like, is that, is that it? Because if I think about one of my best mates, there's tons of issues we don't agree on. We can chat about them, not even in an argumentative sense.

44:21Fearne Cotton: But I know that we fundamentally disagree on certain issues. But I love the bones of this person and they love me. And we can rub along together just fine.

44:30Todd Rose: So one of the, I think, most interesting things in the research on this, that it just isn't intuitive until you say it out loud. So we like to think that we want everyone to agree with us. Now, look, nothing wrong with that. When people agree with you, that feels good.

44:45Fearne Cotton: Yeah.

44:46Todd Rose: It turns out that's not really the primary motivation. It's actually that you want to be understood. And that's the difference. If you think about the person, you're like, I know we disagree on these, but I love them to death. I would almost guarantee you without knowing anything about that person that he listens, will actually be like, okay, like, I don't agree, but I know where you're coming from. And it's like, it turns out that's what we're after because to not be understood is one of the worst things, right? It's like, you can't even order your life. It's like, wait, am I crazy? Or like, what's going on?

45:16Todd Rose: You feel like you're losing your mind. So you need some social comparison to be like, am I in reality here? And so the ability to be understood is the real foundational thing. Now, if someone agrees with you, that means they understand you. Yes. So we conflate those though. So when you realize, okay, rather than just say, you know what, I want the relationship, so I'm going to agree, I'm going to imitate, I'm going to be you basically, I'm going to change my opinions, realize you didn't have to go that far to get that. And they don't need that from you. but that active listening, that willingness to be like, no, I care enough about you to actually want to know you.

45:54Todd Rose: And like, wow, I don't hear. Tell me where, you know, interesting. You believe X. That's not where I'm at, but I'd love to know, like, where did that come from? Like what led you? It's like, oh, okay. Like let's take something like in the States where we always argue for like abortion. It's like, listen, reasonable people can agree. It's like, but we've gotten to the place where it's like on one side, you're a baby killer. The other side, you hate women. And you're like, yeah, there are people like that, but most people it's way more complicated. And so it's like, ask about like, how'd you arrive at that?

46:24Todd Rose: And you're like, oh, wow. Nine times out of 10, you'd be like, oh, wow. Okay. So if I had that experience, now the empathy, if I had that experience, I could see how you could arrive at that position.

46:33Fearne Cotton: Well, this is the thing. I think in today's society, we feel we have to have an opinion on everything. And there are many issues where I put my hat up and go, I don't know enough, or I don't have that personal experience. And I could probably spend a day looking at many different articles or case studies and go, oh, I could probably work out with my set of values and experience what I believe. But a lot of the time we just think, I must have an opinion. And actually you say in the book, one of the best things you can do is just say, I don't know about that or get curious about it.

47:03Todd Rose: That's the beautiful thing is, first of all, it's okay to not have an opinion. Yes. But notice how when I want to manufacture consent, when I want you to fall for the collective illusion to control you, the best thing I do is make it moral. So it's not that you're wrong. You're bad if you don't agree with me.

47:22Fearne Cotton: Uninformed now is like you're the devil.

47:24Todd Rose: Yes. And so it's like, but it's very persuasive to be like, so what do you mean you don't know? You don't know about this latest thing that's the most important thing to me that I only knew about for a week, right? And now I'm out here marching. Yes. Like, how dare you? Yes. Like, you're like, wow. Okay. So now, and then next week it'll be another thing. Yeah. But what you brought up is like, the nice thing is, is it turns out that number one, if it's a great way to detect collective illusions, you know what? I actually, I don't know enough yet. Tell me more. Like, so interesting. You're so excited.

48:00Todd Rose: You said, everybody knows we're voting for this person. Oh, interesting. I haven't made up my mind yet. Yeah. What do you like about them? And what's funny is, is if it's an illusion, if they're just copying, they'll do something like, look, everybody knows. Everybody knows. Like, it's like, no, no, why are you? So that why is such a valuable tool. Because you're like, okay, they don't really know. They're just going along.

48:23Fearne Cotton: It's a good litmus test. And also it means you don't have to be full courageous in going, well, I don't agree with you or outing somebody. You're using curiosity to diffuse it, which is so interesting.

48:35Todd Rose: That's the best thing. And so the nice thing is from the social psychology research is you don't get punished for not having an opinion by the group. In fact, groups will start to try to persuade you. So it's a good way to know. It's like, oh, wow. Okay, hold on. So I'm like, no, tell me more about this because I don't really know enough yet. Oh, if it's their real views, they get excited. They want to share. Yeah. And you're like, oh. And by the way, you'd be like, wow, thanks. That's actually persuasive. I actually agree with you. Yeah. Great. So you're learning. and then you can say, okay, so now at least I know this is really what you think because you're giving me plenty of explanations, justifications.

49:09Todd Rose: Cool, I'm learning. But if you say, look, I'm just not sure yet or I don't know enough, it's such a good escape valve for other people.

49:18Fearne Cotton: Yeah.

49:19Todd Rose: So like, oh, we can say that? Yeah, I haven't met my mind either. This is interesting. Yes, exactly. And you'll see it spread. This is the best thing about

49:25Fearne Cotton: the counter to collective illusions is one of the most beautifully powerful things ever, which I've definitely been the receiving end of. I certainly try and be action-y in terms of this too, where there's a situation that no one's talking about or, I don't know, none of us like being embarrassed or having a secret fear in our heads. If there's one person brave enough to go, oh God, I really fucked up and I did this or, oh God, well, this thing happened to me or I've got this health issue or something that you're nervous about because on a social level, it's not acceptable or nobody talks about it.

50:04Fearne Cotton: It takes one person in your group or if it's on a big platform to say, I've done this. I've, you know, I've got this regret for everybody else to go, oh, and just to sigh. Because we look around and we just assume, oh, everybody else is perfect. They're nailing life and they've got no issues. They've never made a mistake before. Oh, shiny celebrities. They've never gone wrong. And actually every single person has got secret worries and fears. They're just humans. They're just humans. And it is the most powerful, incredible moment to just have that dismantled immediately. So the dismantling of collective illusions is beautiful.

50:44Todd Rose: It is. And it happens so fast because they're social lies.

50:48Fearne Cotton: Yeah.

50:49Todd Rose: Right. So it's not that we have to change someone's mind. It's that you reveal for them that what they believe is what we believe. Yeah. And so it's like, and it only happens through social proof. Yes. It's just, and it's people I admire. So I said when, you know, the David Bowie, you're like, oh, okay. You know, and I'm going to go back though. Your point about how, like when one person breaks with something. So if I'm trying to control a group under a collective illusion, that first person to go against it has to be punished. And it's not even about them. It's the head on a pike phenomenon.

51:22Fearne Cotton: Right.

51:23Todd Rose: So now it's a warning to you. this will happen to you and we're like holy cow yeah okay don't so it's like it's but it all it so it really just takes one person to start the cascade if you want to break this but it's what happens immediately next do you come to the defense of the one person right once it's two it's over wow it's literally two and it's done and it's done because because now it's a group now i can join a group. You know, it's not just one. So one person can start to break it. And the more like you're David Bowie now that that's got pros and cons, right? One, it's cool. I'm like, and you kind of like, it's admirable.

52:05Todd Rose: I wish I were like him. He's also up here. Do you know what I mean? There's a bit of like, right. And if I was famous and I had a lot of money, then I could probably too, but I'm not. Right. And I have to worry about what people think because I have this job and I So it's like that goes, they can show us a way, but it's not as powerful social proof as people like me. Yeah. And this is important because it means that each one of us has way more power to shatter illusions than we ever imagined. Yeah. Because you having that courage to just be authentic, like, again, it doesn't mean you're right.

52:41Todd Rose: No. But with respect, with love, wanting to be understood and wanting to understand, you're like, look, I care enough about you to tell you the truth about how I feel.

52:50Fearne Cotton: Yeah.

52:50Todd Rose: Like, I respect you that much. The amount of ripple effect that that has under illusions is unbelievable.

52:59Fearne Cotton: Unbelievable. Even if you look at how the landscape in the mental health sector and how that's permeated into everyday conversation, whereas, you know, 20 years ago, very few people would talk openly about their own mental health struggles. If I look at my nan, for instance, who was in a day psych ward a lot and it was, you know, nobody really talked about it in the family. And I only really found out about that when I spoke to my mom, actually, in this setting. And I started to really unpick her mental health or whatever. But it was, you know, a subject shrouded in shame and nobody would discuss it.

53:34Fearne Cotton: And you'd see that in terms of, you know, popular culture and how we talked about it in the workplace. If you had anything, you know, with your brain going on, it was just we don't talk about it. And now you see, you know, so say when I was working at BBC Radio 1, nobody talked about mental health. And I was really struggling at the time. But I didn't feel like there was any space to say, I feel like I've lost my marbles. I am absolutely disconnected from my body. I don't know what's going on. Whereas now, I think if you were struggling there, you could say to somebody without any judgment or just any commentary other than let's get you help.

54:13Fearne Cotton: That has changed massively. And even if we look at like smoking back in the day, I just smoked because everyone else smoked. It was so normal. You go into a pub, it's the smokiest atmosphere ever and just have a Mulberry Light, lovely. Now it's like, oh my God, someone's smoking. What are they doing? Things change.

54:27Todd Rose: The mental health one is such a good example. So we have data in the States, as most of our data is. So this is one of those where the collective illusion now has gone the other way. It used to be like, so when we ask people who have suffered a mental health issue in the last five years, for a long time, people would say privately, yes. And then publicly, no. Good. And it would be like twice or three times as many in private than we're willing to say, right? Because you just don't say it. It's shameful. that has changed so with with gen z the pressure is actually to say you've had a mental health episode so their public report of it is higher it's still high in private right but it's now going the other way which is kind of how how it course corrects right right right so they're seeing it's almost kind of cool to to admit that you've struggled yeah yeah which is kind of funny right like suffering olympics so yeah it's like now it's like okay so let's dial that back just a little right and then we'll be in the middle we don't need to compete with the most yeah Yeah.

55:25Todd Rose: But but so to your point, it's like how interesting they can change. And it did take like brave people being the first to say, like, no, it's fine. And usually those are people with high social status. Yes. That that can sort of kickstart it. Can kickstart it. But until it's like, oh, but like my neighbor too. Right. It's like when it's that's like me doable. They live in the same circumstances. They've got the same struggles and they're talking about it. Yeah. It's OK to talk about it.

55:52Fearne Cotton: I think there's something really liberating about knowing that these collectives can change over time. And, you know, I remember like back in the day, just everybody would go to the supermarket and you'd take your shopping home in a plastic bag and no one battered an eyelid. You wouldn't think there was anything bad about it. We didn't know. We were uninformed. And then over the years, as you gather education, you go, oh, God, these plastic bags end up in the sea and then animals could end up swimming in them. This is not good. And then systems change and paper bags are brought in. And now we look back and think, oh, my God, how many plastic bags did I put in the ocean myself?

56:27Fearne Cotton: And you feel aghast about it. I think it's really liberating to know that these things can change. So if you feel like your values aren't aligning with the norm currently in 100 years time, I sadly will be dead. But in the future, that won't be the case. And I think it's really important to know that these things change and move.

56:44Todd Rose: And so they change even when they're true. Right. So when you're like, I don't like this particular norm. I don't like how we do this. And that is true. Those can still change. That's good. This is even crazier, right? They might not even believe this anyway. So it can change now. The rate of change under collective illusions historically is shocking how fast whole societies change when the spell is broken. In the States, the marriage equality movement, such a good example. Yeah. And from 2003 to 2017, fastest change in public opinion ever recorded.

57:23Fearne Cotton: Wow.

57:24Todd Rose: It went from 30 percent approval publicly of gay marriage to 70 percent.

57:29Fearne Cotton: Wow.

57:30Todd Rose: And the trick was is that it's because back in 2003. So there was a community, I believe it's Chicago. I probably might get that part wrong. The geography of like academics and activists to like, OK, how do we advance gay rights? And they're like, whatever you do, don't push for marriage because the public's not ready for it. turned out wasn't true. So there was private opinion data that showed there was a slim majority of, I'd call like the love is love crowd and libertarians who were like, I don't care what you do. It's none of my business. So a small group of activists realized, oh, this is a collective illusion.

58:02Todd Rose: It's not, we could win here. But so rather than try to persuade everyone, oh, you should care. You should want people to get married. They went to Hollywood and they started using our culture to actually break the illusion. And it's so powerful. So you combine like Will and Grace, you know, Modern Family did this really well. And it's not in your face. It's just normal. And so there's a funny thing about, so when you think about social proof, it's people I admire, people like me, so we have a role to play. And then cultural artifacts. Because just like we We can take old civilizations that are long gone and reverse engineer their values from the artifacts they left behind.

58:42Todd Rose: Yes. Our brains use this now to read what do we believe. The stories we tell ourselves, the movies, the music, the TV shows, the books. It has so much impact on us. So much impact. And the technical term for it is we have parasocial relationships with celebrities, with fictional characters. It's so crazy. If you take a TV show that you really like, your brain treats those characters as part of your in-group.

59:08Fearne Cotton: Wow.

59:09Todd Rose: Even though you know they're fake.

59:11Fearne Cotton: Oh, my gosh.

59:12Todd Rose: So things that are said in that context have an outsized effect on what you believe your group believes. So we've done this work. So we have these partnerships in Hollywood where we give private opinions. Like, look, we deserve to know each other and we deserve a transparent culture. so we'll give you the private opinion on things and just put it into the shows wow and so i'll give you an example um so one of the biggest illusions we've ever found which is kind of crazy is how people define a successful life it is wild so we've looked at dozens and dozens of trade-off priorities you could have so be like the richest person you know to having a family everything in between in private the kind of lives people want to live it's pretty remarkable yeah they're really good people yeah like they want to contribute they want to be in relationship they want to have character it's like you're like oh these are people i'd want to live around then when you ask them well what do you think most people think they think everybody else cares about status and that's it yeah with fame being like the number one thing so privately we're all actually

1:00:13Fearne Cotton: really the same oh it's but we we assume that everybody else is like so so it's in private

1:00:18Todd Rose: overwhelming majority people think success is positive some like your win can be can benefit at me. Just because you won doesn't mean I have to lose.

1:00:26Fearne Cotton: Yes, exactly.

1:00:27Todd Rose: But we think everybody else thinks it's zero sum.

1:00:28Fearne Cotton: It's crazy.

1:00:29Todd Rose: And we think everybody else wants to be famous as the number one thing, wants wealth and power, wants to go to the most prestigious universities. So it's all this comparative zero sum stuff. In private, they're all at the bottom 10%. Okay, so now imagine this. Nothing's more important than living the kind of life you want to live. Like societies thrive when most people are getting to do that. And it doesn't matter what else you do. If people are miserable, you get the kind of situation we see all over the world right now. So how sad is it that, look, I want to live a good life. I want to be successful, but I also want you to think I'm successful.

1:01:07Todd Rose: There's nothing wrong with wanting people to acknowledge your accomplishments. But if I think that you only see success as fame, I can make choices that optimize on getting your approval.

1:01:21Fearne Cotton: Yeah. And then devalue what you actually think.

1:01:24Todd Rose: And what we find over and over again is, so we also measure how people are doing on those priorities and then correlate that with broader life satisfaction. It turns out that if you increase achievement on your priorities, okay, most people are only about 50 % of their priorities at best. If you bump that up to 70, which by the way, isn't hard if I want to be in a good relationship, I want to be a good person, I want to literally be in my community is a top 10 priority for people. Yeah, you can do that. You don't be rich or famous to do that. Like you can just show up and do it, right? That bump actually corresponds to an increase in life satisfaction that's the exact same as getting a 50 % pay increase.

1:02:05Fearne Cotton: It's that big of a deal.

1:02:06Todd Rose: Conversely, no amount of achievement on what other people care about translates to any increase in life satisfaction.

1:02:14Fearne Cotton: I can imagine. I've interviewed so many people in this exact chair who are top, top, top of their game. And they are no happier than like my best mate from school who has a regular job. I see it again and again, like that collective illusion. Isn't that crazy? I so understand it.

1:02:30Todd Rose: And don't you think like you're like, you should be happy. We look at these people and you're like, how are you not happy? And you're like -

1:02:35Fearne Cotton: Because it's a load of old bollocks. And it's also that, I don't know if you have the same phrase in the States, but we have a thing here, keeping up with the Joneses. So your next door neighbor, you're like, they've got hanging baskets. I better get hanging baskets. They've done a conservatory on the back of the house. And actually, nobody gives a shit.

1:02:51Todd Rose: Nobody does. It's so funny.

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1:04:30Fearne Cotton: Hey, there's one thing in the book that I have to ask you about. You say in the book that you see the collective illusion as an existential threat. That's huge to say that. Why do you think that?

1:04:42Todd Rose: Because I'm dramatic.

1:04:45Fearne Cotton: We like a bit of drama.

1:04:46Todd Rose: Here's what I mean by it. So far we've talked about the personal consequences, right, which are important enough. And if that's all there was, it's enough to say you should steer toward authenticity. There's ways to inch toward that without jumping all the way in. But it will pay dividends in a hurry and it's worth it just for that. You'll live a better life, I promise. Now let's think about collectively. So one of the biggest consequences of these collective illusions is the plummeting of social trust. And social trust might be the single most important thing for the cohesion of any society that we've ever discovered.

1:05:23Todd Rose: And all that is, is my gut feeling whether most people can be trusted. And you think about that. if I don't think most people around me are trustworthy, what does that do for how I treat them, how I expect to be treated?

1:05:36Fearne Cotton: It's Lord of the Flies.

1:05:37Todd Rose: Yes. And so therefore I'm like, okay, if I can't trust you, then I have to control you. And then it becomes a race of who gets to control whom because, and it'd become hyper paternalistic because it's just like for your own good or no, if I let you make choices, you're going to hurt me. So here's what's crazy. So we have seen across Western society, the plummeting of social trust. In the US, we have the lowest levels ever recorded. It's been in state decline since the 30s. It's crazy. If you look at like Scandinavian countries, other places have higher levels of social trust. When you get above like 50%, so majority of people think a majority of people can be trusted.

1:06:14Todd Rose: So many things get easier, right? We don't have to be the same in every way. If I trust you, it's okay that you have a different opinion. But if I don't trust you, then all I have left is, well, we better agree. And people who don't agree are our enemy because they're going to hurt us. Right? So the single best predictor of social trust is perceived shared values. Yes. Okay. So if I told you in private, most people share pretty fundamental values. It's pretty shocking how similar we are. But these values now sit under collective illusions. So we don't think it's true. Well, if we don't think it's true, it becomes not true.

1:06:51Fearne Cotton: Yeah.

1:06:52Todd Rose: Right. So now I'm looking around going, wait, just take the success one. If you actually think that most people around you are this like zero sum, hyper comparative, they will step on you to get ahead. Why would you trust them?

1:07:06Fearne Cotton: No. And also you'd start to mimic their behavior because you're like, sod it. You have to. Yeah.

1:07:10Todd Rose: To survive. In fact, behavioral economics is pretty clear on this. Like in a positive sum game, if other people are playing it as zero sum, you have to play it as zero sum. You'll get taken advantage of. So now I have to behave this way because I think that's the only way I can get ahead. But now I'm behaving that way. And that's proof to you that I believe that. So now you feel like you have to do that too. And we all literally just keep perpetuating the lie. And so the nice thing is, is what we see is when people start being a little more authentic and we start revealing shared values, but what you see instantly is the boost in social trust.

1:07:48Todd Rose: Yeah. And once that starts to come up, we don't have to agree on everything anymore. We start cooperating a little bit better and the flywheel works in favor of us. So if I could wave a magic wand, like social trust, moving that needle is the most important thing you can do in a society.

1:08:03Fearne Cotton: Is that what you mean by in the book you say, you know, if we look around the world at the moment, we could literally go on any news outlet and think we are in dire straits. the world is bleak you say the answers are hiding in plain sight is this what you mean yes yes it

1:08:20Todd Rose: is look it's and what's funny is is i mean obviously from a media perspective there's some incentive whether they mean to or not we have negativity bias yeah like outrage sells so like we're getting fed things that don't necessarily reflect reality they're a they're a narrative around it but it's like yeah there it's beyond traditional media the social media stuff is just a disaster for this. It doesn't matter if there's any manipulation, you are going to be under collective illusions just being on social media because of the loudest voices. But you add to that. So my organization, we work with other organizations and government agencies looking at the weaponization of collective illusions.

1:09:00Todd Rose: So other countries, so in particular, Russia, China, and Iran figured this out and were so clever. So they have a million bought armies, millions and millions of fake accounts and now they're ai enabled and the whole point is to manufacture collective illusions to get you to believe that your group believes something they don't yeah and so it's so it's so sophisticated it's kind of shocking propaganda is now so easy to cultivate and we tend to think propaganda we're like oh it's disinformation it's not disinformation is not terribly effective it's i'm going to convince you that your group believes something that it doesn't.

1:09:40Todd Rose: And then your conformity bias will kick in and you'll be out there protesting something you don't even understand and certainly didn't believe, but you're pretty sure that's what we believe. And so it's very easy. So like, for example, the research shows that on social media, if only 5 % of your interactions are with bots, the bots can completely determine group consensus. Okay. Conservatively, one quarter of all your interactions on social media are with bots and you don't know it.

1:10:10Fearne Cotton: That is shit scary.

1:10:13Todd Rose: And they're so good. So they'll swarm an opinion and boost a fringe opinion. That's the first thing they do, right? So one crazy person has some stupid idea, right? We should defund the police. You're like, I think we should reform it, but I don't want social workers showing up. Sometimes I need the police, right? This seems crazy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They'll repost it, retweet it. So it feels like, It'll feel like it's viral and like, wow, I'm seeing this on my feet a lot. Second thing they do with the bots is the first three comments on a comment thread control the entire comment thread. Wow. So you post something or you like something, those bots, if they want to encourage it, will come in and immediately reinforce it in the comment section.

1:10:56Todd Rose: And if the first three are positive, that'll determine the tone of the whole comment thread. Wow. And you'll feel like, oh, you know what? I saw that. I was like, hey, this is what we believe. I posted this. And look, people are saying I'm really smart and courageous and wonderful. Or you posted the wrong thing, they'll attack you in the comment thread. They're bots. They're not real human beings. And it's wild. So this is what I mean when I say it's an existential crisis, right? We're losing a war we didn't know we were fighting. And there's no real policy solution. There's no technology solution.

1:11:33Todd Rose: It's a human problem. Yeah. And so I would say whether it's for your own sake, authenticity matters. Yeah. Or if all you cared about is being part of the group, this might be the most important thing you could do for the groups that matter to you. Yeah. Because we are suffocating under these social lies and it's tearing apart societies and we don't function. And it does, it feels like all over the world, the wheels just fell off.

1:12:04Fearne Cotton: Yeah, it does.

1:12:06Todd Rose: And so I would say we have real problems. But when you get under the hood, past just what people will say out loud, you would be heart warmed to know we haven't lost our humanity. We just think we have.

1:12:20Fearne Cotton: That is the most beautiful thing to realise because I think most people wake up in the morning and feel dreaded looking at the news, do feel distrusting and do assume that mainly because of what you've just said there about the bots and there's no governance over how social media works and how we're bombarded with information, stories, narratives, if you're wrong, you're right, whatever, that there is the humanness has been extracted via AI. But if we take back control and we actually do believe that people are good eggs, the majority of people, there's always going to be a few sour grapes over here, but there's the majority of people are good eggs.

1:12:55Fearne Cotton: That gives us hope. And that is so necessary in this conversation.

1:12:59Todd Rose: Yeah, because then why would you do anything? You wouldn't get out of bed. And if you knew that the most important thing you could do, if you said, like, how do I contribute to getting us through this? Right. Who am I? Right. It turns out because it's a collective illusion and social proof is everything, you are really important. And so for your own sake, but also for our sake, have a conversation. Not online. In real life with your neighbor at a pub, a respectful one. But be honest with yourself. I'm pretty sure that they don't agree. And then when you have the conversation, you go, huh. And what's funny is, is I like to write down like, what am I afraid of here?

1:13:43Todd Rose: What do I think? Right. Like, so I, because it's so easy to revise your views after you've had the conversation. Oh yeah. I never thought that. I mean, oh yeah, no. Roger, of course, Roger agrees. It's like, no, you didn't think that. You didn't think that. And you're just like, holy cow, I'm just wrong. And again, what's awesome is go back to David Bowie. Be that person. It's so wildly fucking attractive. Yes. Like, and again, it's not an in your face, rude, don't be an asshole. Nope. But there's just something so attractive about people who just are who they are.

1:14:20Fearne Cotton: Yeah. It's the best.

1:14:22Todd Rose: It is. It is. And it's like, it's like, we're so afraid of that awkward moment. And I love that you brought that. It's just like, it feels like the worst thing in the world. It's just an awkward moment.

1:14:31Fearne Cotton: Yeah. You'll get over it.

1:14:32Todd Rose: And if you can get through it.

1:14:33Fearne Cotton: Yes.

1:14:33Todd Rose: And the other side of that is this phenomenal experience of like, hold on, I just showed you a part of who I am and you kind of liked it. You didn't leave. You didn't leave.

1:14:44Fearne Cotton: You didn't go. And that's our fear, isn't it? I've had that so many times with friends, people that I love dearly that I thought I could never tell them this one thing. And then I've tested myself and thought, let me have a conversation about this, like something in my past or whatever. And they've stayed and you're like, what? Oh, my God. I'm okay. Like, I'm all right.

1:15:06Todd Rose: Yeah. Think about how you feel about yourself. Yeah. You know, it reminds me, you know, my younger brother. So I grew up in rural America in a pretty conservative religious community, which is not sort of my way of life now. Yeah. But quite a while back, my younger brother came out as gay, which that was before that big change I talked about. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I remember he said something to me that I think has more general applicability is, you know, when he was struggling with, tell our parents. And he had talked to me and he said, but look, I said, they love you. And he goes, yeah, they wouldn't if they knew me.

1:15:47Todd Rose: And so you're living in this lie in this extreme way, denying some fundamental part of who you are. I mean, that's an extreme case, right? So that's really sad. And in that case, there were reasons to be worried because there were plenty of people in his friend group whose parents disowned their kids. Yeah. So that is horrible. It's a very real threat. So it's a real threat. But the other side of that is the incredible when they accept you. And not only that, they change their view of their religion. Yes. They change their view. They chose their son.

1:16:17Fearne Cotton: Yeah.

1:16:19Todd Rose: and the kind of relationship that they still have and that we all have and what it must feel like to be like i just showed you who i am and you didn't leave yeah and and so that again that's an extreme version but we all live some smaller version of that without doubt and we think it's that we think

1:16:35Fearne Cotton: the small ones don't matter but they do they do they do it doesn't have to be the big things

1:16:39Todd Rose: no it's like when i feel like i have to hide parts of who i am that i value just so you won't leave or just so you'll like me, we get the empty calorie fitting in.

1:16:50Fearne Cotton: Yeah.

1:16:51Todd Rose: And we deserve more than that.

1:16:52Fearne Cotton: I think it's the most interesting topic in terms of belonging versus fitting in on a very individual basis, how much tension we store in our body. And then when we look at this on a bigger scale, collectives, groups we fit into, how we feel we fit into society, how we view the world. It's just it's a never ending topic. And we've barely done the tip of the iceberg with this one. So I would say to anybody who wants to know more, read your brilliant book, look up what you're researching and the studies that you're doing. because I think, you know, as well as it being an existential threat, it's just something that's so relieving in terms of knowing you can be who you want to be in the world and to fear rejection less because actually it's much less of a threat than we actually believe.

1:17:44Todd Rose: And if I would just charge everyone, like do one authentic thing. It doesn't have to be scary. It doesn't have to be the biggest thing. Try it.

1:17:52Fearne Cotton: Yeah.

1:17:53Todd Rose: Try it. Because here's the thing. We're afraid of not belonging, but also what we see all over the world right now is people feel like they have no control and that's terrifying yeah you know um remember during covid everybody bought toilet paper like

1:18:07Fearne Cotton: crazy that was in part because it was the thing we could do yeah yeah it wasn't expensive it felt

1:18:12Todd Rose: like there was something we could do and there's a psychologically quite good to feel like i'm doing something even if it really didn't matter right um just we literally had a run on toilet paper in the states yeah it's so funny um if we just had bidets would be fine but we don't yeah yeah yeah we don't even have those here that's very europe thing yeah very very but um uh i think that you'll experience something even more profound which is the sense of control over your life that you fill with those small acts of authenticity you'll realize that you you can be in charge of your life yeah um it will improve your relationships and because of the collective illusions it might be the single most important thing you could do for society it's so

1:18:56Fearne Cotton: fascinating and in the last you know over eight years of us doing this podcast we really haven't dived deeply into this subject matter that seems to be pretty much a foundation for so many other things that we talk about mental health wise or life narrative wise so I can't thank you enough for being on the podcast today before we wrap up there are two things I want to ask you we're creating a happy place playlist of really feel good music what would you put on there? The true private answer Todd

1:19:26Todd Rose: so this will date me um right now i i think i i'm too into like uh broader stuff that i wouldn't fit the list you have like white lies i really love uh-huh uh mona is a obscure band but throughout when i was younger it was journey don't stop believing watching it's just putting it on there it's just so good that's not on there yet and it's so like it's kind of cheese like yeah duh it's happy but it's it's it's actually a beautiful first of all it's just great music it's great it's motivating it's so motivating and it was like the origins of that were really about them trying to stick with being an artist yeah when it was hard and everyone said to quit um and the journey from obscurity to doing the thing you love and being able to make a living out of it and you know in my own life just thinking about the the challenges i faced i used to literally this is again, dating myself, we had this, my dad had this eight track and it was in the garage and we had Journey.

1:20:27Fearne Cotton: I love it.

1:20:27Todd Rose: And I would go play it in this and just, heaven, just loved it. It's the best.

1:20:31Fearne Cotton: I love it. I'm here for that. And where is your happy place? Okay.

1:20:36Todd Rose: This will make me sound like an asshole.

1:20:39Fearne Cotton: Go on.

1:20:42Todd Rose: It is every chance I get to drive my Porsche 911.

1:20:47Fearne Cotton: Oh, we're letting you have that.

1:20:50Todd Rose: It's a convertible.

1:20:52Fearne Cotton: Windows down. Windows down. Move off. Convertible. Journey playing.

1:20:54Todd Rose: It is so great because it's fast. It's nimble. I'll go up. When I just want, I'm like, you know what? I just need to clear my head. I want to feel happy again. Yeah. There's a little path I take outside of Boston. Drives around Walden Pond, this twisty, woodsy road. I love that. You got the music blaring. And that's it.

1:21:18Fearne Cotton: Who cares if anyone thinks you're an arsehole? You're being authentically you, Todd. That's authentically me. And that's what it's all about. I'm that guy. Well, look, thank you so much for your time today. It's a fascinating conversation that I will undoubtedly, it will be just whizzing around my brain for days to come in terms of looking at decisions that I'm making and the actions that I'm taking. So, Todd, thank you so much for being in a happy place. Oh, my God. I feel like I need to do a podcast after that podcast just to work out what the hell's going on in that podcast. We need like a, you know, when like Britain's Got Talent's got a behind the scenes show or something or X Factor.

1:21:54Fearne Cotton: I need like a behind the scenes of that chat. There is so much in there. I mean, one episode does not do that topic justice. So read the book because it's just a fascinating topic. And hopefully you'll go away and think about those things more. Maybe chat to friends and family. I think this conversation could maybe also be a good bridge between you or me and somebody else that we know thinks vastly different to us. Or we assume they think in a really different way to us. This conversation, this podcast could be a good thing to send to someone who you know just totally disagrees with your beliefs about the world.

1:22:31Fearne Cotton: Or not even the world, just like your own life. Todd, you're brilliant. thank you so much a joy to be hosting Todd on the Happy Place podcast and also having him in the UK we loved it come back soon Todd Collective Illusions is the name of the book that we were particularly talking about but Todd's written loads more that you might like too so go check out his back catalogue in the meantime a huge thanks to Todd and to you for being here you're the bloody best

1:23:18Fearne Cotton: Happy Place is researched by me, Fern Cotton. The producer is Anushka Tate at Happy Place Studios with studio engineering by Basil Oxtoby. You want to get your backyard summer ready, but you don't want to break the bank? Wayfair gets it. planning on dining al fresco or relaxing poolside wayfair has everything you need to prep your space shop now and save up to 70 off during wayfair's fourth of july clearance score huge deals on outdoor furniture area rugs and more we're talking thousands of products for every style and budget plus surprise flash deals july 6 don't wait shop wayfair's fourth of july clearance

1:23:54Todd Rose: now through july 6th at wayfair.com wayfair every style every home this message is brought to you by the Capital One Venture X card. Venture X offers the premium benefits you expect, like a$300 annual Capital One travel credit for less than you expect. Elevate your earn with unlimited double miles on every purchase, bringing you one step closer to your next dream destination. Plus, enjoy access to over 1 ,000 airport lounges worldwide. The Capital One Venture X card. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. Lounge access is subject to change. See CapitalOne.com for details. Thank you.