Ashley John-Baptiste: Rejection, aspirations, and a lack of hugs

0:00Hello, I'm Fern Cotton and this is Happy Place, the show that unpicks how the past affects the present. Today, I'm chatting to Ashley John-Baptiste. I was eventually moved to a children's home, a residential care home with shift workers. And I didn't know that was happening until I was turfed into a car. We're driving off and I'm just screaming and I'm uncontrollable. And as the car drives off, she gets smaller because we're going into the distance. We turn a corner and she's gone. And that was the first time I recall the deep rejection of being in care. Ashley is an award-winning BBC presenter and reporter.

0:42He says if you'd told 16-year-old Ashley he'd grow up to be an esteemed broadcaster, a dad and a husband, he wouldn't have believed you. He was in foster care from the age of two. A childhood his new memoir, Looked After, details. Despite facing suspensions and exclusions at school, he went on to study history at Cambridge and not long after graduating made a BBC3 documentary about growing up in care, which kick-started his career in broadcasting. This chat I found deeply, deeply moving and also highly educational. I sometimes find it really sad that I know so little about the care system and how so many kids are going through exactly what Ashley experienced.

1:28But this chat was not only eye-opening, it also felt deeply, deeply important. And yeah, it taught me a hell of a lot and has kept my brain ticking over with so many thoughts about Ashley's story and so many other kids in the same situation. This is a really special one. The market's uncertain. Revenue's tied and hiring? on hold. That's why results-driven companies are using Upwork to keep work moving. Go to Upwork.com today and start hiring proven freelance talent fast. No bulky overhead, no rigid long-term contracts, just the right expert right when you need them. Work smarter and faster with Upwork.

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3:25right let's do it here's the show

3:49Ashley Ashley Ashley hello hello what's cracking what is cracking we've got so much to talk about and I'm so thrilled to have you on the podcast because this is our first proper chance to chat. We were both at this gorgeous Shaping Us symposium at the end of last year and it was all about early childhood development and towards the end of that symposium, you got up and talked a little bit about your own life story but talked about, well, essentially what it's like to be in care as a young kid and the impact that it has and the importance of mentors. And I mean, not just me, the whole room was hanging off your every word.

4:27You're so, honestly, you're so eloquent and told part of your story. You had to squeeze it into a couple of minutes, but you told your story so beautifully. And I was just intrigued to hear more from you. Handily, you've written the book. Yeah. Looked after. Wow, what a process. What a process. Now, obviously, you've made documentaries and reports on the care system, But this is a deep dive and it's taken you two years to write this book. So what has that process been like? Well, it's been how do I articulate the process of writing this book? It has forced me to look back at my childhood in a way that I never have before.

5:10And I'm very forward focused. I'd like to think I'm progressive. I like to keep it moving. And actually, part of that's probably because I'm trying to get away from my childhood. But writing this, I had to, I couldn't do that. I had to consider moments. I had to re-remember. I had to put myself in my child state. I had to become a boy again. I had to open up to that little boy that's still inside. And I had to, yeah, really go back to moments of trauma, moments of rejection, moments that I probably look back with a bit of nostalgia now but um to do all of that I had to give myself space I had to give myself time it wasn't easy but I look at that book I look at that physical copy of my book and yeah like I'm proud I'm proud that I was able to do it and hopefully it resonates with people when they when they read some of those experiences but it was it was a journey and it was wild and um I have I have a little family and they were really supportive with my wife was incredible but without without the community that I now have it would have been impossible for me to do oh it's so good it's so interesting to hear you say that you've I guess you train yourself to be forward-thinking because you don't want to look back and I think many people that that will chime with them or that we're all to an extent on the run from something it might be in childhood or it might be you know just a few years back but many of us are caught in that what's next what's next I'm on the run so this is interesting that when you've got to sit in it and you've got to really not run you've got to sit there and look at it all and poke around in the bits that are really painful still that is so hard and it's so draining but I think usually part of the healing process.

7:07Do you think that's happened during the writing of this book, that it's helped you understand a bit more about your past or the impact that it's had on you? Yeah, 100%. I think one of the main things that the book's allowed me to do is it's allowed me to take the time to process trauma. So, again, that thing of being forward-thinking is that you may sometimes try to suppress trauma that's still live and active but I'm I was in this process of writing about things and just emotions would flare up so for example there's I lived in a foster home and I went on a photo shoot with this foster mum and her biological kids and despite being at the shoot I wasn't in the photo that made the living room wall you know and that's the sort of thing that I'd never thought about properly before but I when I wrote about that I was like shit like yeah that's heavy and I had to like you know I told my missus when I wrote it and she reacted and it's it's those details it's those details those really niche things of my story that I've never really reflected on.

8:27The book forced me to do that. And I realized in that process that I have to give myself the space to feel that stuff. And so I'd say, yeah, that's one of the gifts of the book. It's allowed me to reflect on things and feel it and process in a way that, honestly, Fern, I would never have done. you know um so that's been a gift like trying to process and reflect and consider the trauma that is still very active in my life as a as a 30 34 year old bloke yeah of course but you know when you're a kid and when you're a little kid moments like the one you've just described you're not gonna go oh I need to work out why that felt painful or why does this hurt you are trying to survive something that feels you know inherently uncomfortable so you just push through it and then you end up as an adult going oh my god what what are all these moments these big moments these micro moments that are still in me that are still you know we've I think most people have that trauma in them somewhere and it's in your physical body as well as your mind and you've got to you know that is the bad news for any of us is you you have to kind of move with it and move through it to come out the other side of it and it's not easy there's no easy way around it i mean to go back on some of your incredible life story the book starts age four when you were this is the first foster carer that you can actively remember and and joyce your first foster parent she seemed to make such a huge impact on you you call her your caribbean grandmother or that was the feeling of her she is like um have you seen the night professor yes she is like the mum in the night professor she's like this matriarch and incredible cook i just i have such incredible thoughts of being around a dinner table with her like at the center like in her orbit and just thinking that she would be my forever home that wasn't the case um and and this is the sort of start of a string of rejection that you were dealing with.

10:33And that felt like, I mean, I wept reading your book. It's the moment where you were picked up by your social worker to drive away from Joyce's. I was in bits. I was like, I can't imagine at that young age, those formative years where you're being ripped away from the only comfort and stability that you've known. That's a massive trauma to go through. It is. And, you know, that happened to me as an infant. And that was a long time ago. You know, we're talking a couple of decades or just under a couple of decades, maybe. But that's still happening to so many children in the care system. Most kids are being turfed between homes.

11:17When I think back to Joyce, yeah, when I had to leave her, I wasn't really prepared. Like there was no, you know, here's where you're going to be moving to. because I was eventually moved to a children's home, a residential care home with shift workers. And I didn't know that was happening until I was turfed into a car. So I'm watching children's telly. I'm eating my cereal. It's a spring morning. I know that something's going to happen. I just don't know the details. And so I'm kind of in and out of this feeling of normality. And then professionals come to the house. and I'm told you have to leave.

12:02And I never graduate from the pain of having to retell that. It just doesn't roll off the tongue. I remember it. I remember Joyce. I remember what she was doing. She began to pack clothes for me. I began to beg her to keep me as a little kid. And as far as I'm concerned, that's my mum. That's all I remember. and um yeah I mean it's really hard to talk about but basically you know these workers who I don't know put me into a car Joyce is kind of getting my stuff and yeah I I'm inconsolable I'm weeping I'm a kid who's being who's having like the biggest attachment in his life cut and there's nothing I can do about it and she's kind of got this front of silence and so yeah being put into that car and then I just remember like nearing up as much as I could this little frame trying to look through the back window of this car to Joyce who's now stood outside the house and like we're driving off and I'm I'm I'm just screaming and I'm you know I'm I'm I'm uncontrollable um and as the car drives off she gets smaller because we're going into the distance we turn a corner and and she's gone and that was the first time I recall the deep rejection of being in care um even then I didn't know where they were taking me to like I didn't I didn't know I didn't know the people in the car I knew my social worker but there were other professionals that I had no clue who they were um and it's just little details like I'm driving down roads that I know and I pass my barber shop and I'm like am I going to go to the barber shop again and you know you think about your mates and you think about your community and you're turfed from it yeah it's horrible to talk about Fern um but I suppose I am because I'm talking about it because still so many looked after children are experiencing these kind of moments of rejection I mean when you go into the care system that's a deep rejection there's probably going to be abandonment for the average kid in care and then to feel like you're in a home that's stable that's good for you to then be turfed from that home and you know for me it happened a lot of times and yeah from there I'm in a care home it's basically a home they're around there were other boys my age and I'm kind of sent to a room that's down my bedroom and then an hour or so in into being in that home I was allowed to call Joyce again and just hearing her voice like in the book I call it a bereavement because no one's died and actually she lived down the road still like she was a drive away but I had no access I had no access I had no opportunity to be in her embrace to be in her home again to be with my family and um there were probably legitimate reasons why i had to leave i still don't fully know why but maybe she didn't want to foster anymore or maybe um she could have been ill or there could have been a range of reasons maybe she was a short-term foster carer but for a child who's so young like how do you dress that up how do you explain that What language can you put on that to make them feel like it's reasonable?

15:30So, yeah, I mean, it was just, it was a deep, deep moment of trauma that I don't think I'll ever fully get over. Yeah, well, it's not surprising. You know, it wasn't gradual, an incremental transition. It's, you know, a matter of hours from you're sat watching TV and Cocoa Pops. And then the next thing you know, you're with a bunch of strangers and you're meant to cope and you're meant to survive that. It's so full on. And it seemed like around this time when you're a very young kid, not only was there that level of trauma and the rejection, but also it's confusing. Because like you say, you can call Joyce, but you can't see Joyce.

16:15At this point, you'd also seen a photograph of your biological mum, but you hadn't met her at this point. So you've seen a picture of her, you know what she looks like, and she becomes this sort of like goddess to you, like this imagined person. She's like an angel. Like an angel. I mean, that's so much for you to get your head around at such a young age, as well as being in this complete new environment, where also I guess the thing, and I talked a little bit about this with Lem Sisay. Oh, shout out to Lem. Isn't he amazing? We are all in love with Lem. He's a G. Okay, we are so in love with Lem.

16:52I don't know what to do. And I read his poetry books, I weep, and he's just brilliant. But the similar themes that I was reading about in your book within a care home, that lack of physical comfort, that lack of tactility, that lack of affection, which, as we know, as young kids, is vital that you have simple things like hugs, stuff that we'll take for granted that you get a hug off your mum your dad your nan your granddad whoever it might be that's looking after you you don't get that in a care home how do you think that's impacted you oh wow wow um so I've got I've got two beautiful girls I've got a four-year-old and a two-year-old and I am so affectionate I mean that I probably won't label on my I won't because that's where I could get a bit emotional talking about my kids, but I am so affirming physically with them because I didn't have it.

17:55And so, yeah, how it's impacted me. I mean, you know, I would like to think that I've taken the coldness of that time and somehow converted it to the opposite, you know, making sure I don't enforce it on my kids, making sure that I don't project that kind of treatment onto them and onto my wife and onto my community. But even that is like a behaviour that I had to learn throughout. So the children's home and in the other homes that I lived in, and I talk about it, just the lack of touch. And I think, you know, being a typical boy, I try to shoulder it. I try to put on a front, but I wanted a hug.

18:38I wanted a hug. I remember when Mufasa died in The Lion King. It was so and all for all of us this moment. I remember when Mufasa died in The Lion King and I was watching it in that children's home. Ah, again, thinking on moments that I would never think about. But I remember there was a worker and I was like, no, I'm cool, I'm cool. Oh, Mufasa, Mufasa's died. and like it never even occurred to me that I could go to this work of this bloke for a hug right as a kid but I should have had the option to be a bit sad and and be vulnerable and get a little hug you know whilst watching you know Mufasa die yeah but those kind of comforts were never afforded to me um yeah it's really hard to talk about I mean those those those just basic comforts of childhood sort of attachment and bonds I didn't have access to and the outcomes for children in care are not good like statistically without getting into the numbers like be it higher education be it employment like typically we don't do as well as the general public And I do think that the trauma of not getting a hug or being moved, you know, between homes, I think all of that stuff, it affects your outlook, it affects your future prospects, it affects your aspirations.

20:12So it's really hard to pin down the kind of broad impact of it. But I can say that there's certainly a connection in my view between, you know, not being hugged and loved properly as a kid and your future outcome. Yeah, well, it's how you view the world, isn't it? if you see it as this unstable, hostile place, you're going to act differently. So it's totally understandable. And I think we can all probably guess what the correlation is.

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21:15There was someone that you met in the care home who was quite an incredible force in your life. and maybe you realised this, the full impact that he had on you down the line. But can you tell us about Miles? Miles. Miles. Miles was like this kind of light in a very dark place. But, you know, context, Miles was a worker in this care home. None of the boys went to school in this home, not because they had created reasons. So there was a culture of not caring. There was a culture of boys not doing things and the workers not pushing them. So when I moved in, no one went to school. They all had excuses and reasons why they didn't want to go.

22:01So day to day people would wake up, get the Xbox out or the PlayStation, kick about outside. And I very much embedded myself into that lifestyle. But this guy, Miles, was one of the workers. He was a shift worker. but I remember he would well number one he found me a school in the local area Gallywall Primary School and he forced me to go to school so every day at 7am without fail he would make sure that I was up getting ready for school he was he's carried I mean there's a theme Caribbean people are great but um he actually gets up for school you know have your wife you got clean box of shorts or briefs and like all of that and I was like pipe down miles please leave me alone and um He was so persistent.

22:45And if he wasn't on shift, and this is what I just think is remarkable, he would call up the office and he made sure that a worker was getting me ready for school. And being a typical kid, I found him hella annoying. I hated it. I really did. And I despise him a lot of the time. But it's that tough love. it's tough love that so many of the boys didn't get in that home because they weren't a priority to anyone and um he was so persistent in that fern that school became normal and to some that might might sound really trivial but that was quite miraculous in that home to be in a home when nobody cared nobody went to school but then you've got this bloke who is so persistent in in a daily thing getting you to get up to go to school that that was life-changing it was life-changing and I didn't appreciate at the time just what that meant and what it represented and how much he cared and loved me but looking back now as you know a guy with kids I'm like wow that is incredible like that is that is the kind of love the going above and beyond on a daily basis that that changes the world it's that energy that changes the world for the better I'm so grateful to Miles and he has a form of skin cancer now and I lost touch with him when I left that home I hadn't seen him for well over a decade and I bumped into him on a South London Eye Street no way yeah I bumped into him some years ago and I shouted out his name and he was with his daughter who's an adult and um he recognized me can you imagine if he didn't recognize me who is this kid I'm like this guy he's changed my life he recognized you yeah he recognized me yeah and um I bumped into an it's like this like cheeky kid just came out of me and I just reverted back to who I was and um I shouted out to him ran over to him and um he he said to me how are you and he was clearly a bit concerned with the question because I went on to find out that he had bumped into other boys and it was often a bad report it was a bad response like yeah I won't share their stories in detail but there was one boy who had come out of prison that kind of narrative and um I looked at his daughter and I said I'm good you know I'm good and I I said to his daughter I said your dad is an absolute legend and I explained to him like what I was doing with my life and all of that and to be able to honor him in that full circle moment was incredible and also because you know in the book I wrote up to I write up until I leave care so I don't really talk about now but to be able to honor him in front of his daughter and say to him what you did like just that small decision that unseen unglamorous in this age of less broadcast everything to the world just a very private internal daily decision to help me to be able to say like that changed my life it's just such a sweet moment you know to be able to tell him um it's so important this is why i was so captivated by your speech at the symposium because i think these unsung heroes don't get enough light shone on them.

26:14And obviously the whole theme of the Shaping Us campaign is to look at early development. And of course there's this huge onus on parents and what parents are doing, but this is much wider spread than just looking at a mum and dad or just a mum or just a dad. This is looking at wider family. This is looking at community. This is looking at great teachers, people that, like everybody's got a chance to impact a kid's life positively. and we can never truly understand just the magnitude of what that means and what it could lead to. And of course, you know, for Miles, I'm sure at times it felt it could have been laborious or just like maybe he was hitting his head against them all like, is this kid going to go to school?

26:55But he kept at it and to show that these important key figures in kids' lives make a huge difference, not only to the individual but to society. I mean, why are we not talking about this more? Why are we not encouraging everybody to mentor, to help out with kids in their local area? This is game changing stuff. And I want to get on to how he helped, whether he knew it or not at the time, but shape your life and just steer the direction with help from some other key figures coming down the line. So after you'd been in the care home, you get offered a placement at another foster family's home. This was not so great.

27:33This seemed from the start like quite a painful experience. And this is the same family setup you described with the family picture being taken and you not getting put on the wall. So this moves us to Carmen. So Carmen was sort of embedded in quite a religious lifestyle. She was part of the Salvation Army, which you seem to despise sort of being entrenched in that world most weekends until you discovered music, which is another beautiful theme. But being in a house where you've been told you're welcome, but then not feeling it, that is very problematic. And I think what I was imagining when I was reading this section was just how much you were physically holding in.

28:18Because you don't have a voice. You can't say you're unhappy because you've got to be the good, quiet foster child who doesn't get kicked out of this family home. So you're holding on to all of this. You've been told you're welcome, but you know you're not. How do you deal with that? How do you navigate your day to day in that environment? An important thing to say is to the regular person reading about Carmen, it sounds cold. It sounds toxic. It sounds wrong. When you're used to being chunted between homes, you normalise stuff. so what might appear to be really really unjust when you're a kid who's just been shunted between homes you feel like they're doing you a favor you feel like you're lucky which is which is just it's wild to even think like that but the way that Carmen was presented to me was this is your moment like this is your big moment I was in this children's home and then I'm told a foster mum wants you make it work like you've got a trial run you've got two weeks to go there and you've got two weeks to make a good impression so in my head I'm thinking it's like an audition for one of these big shows that we watch so you're thinking ah I've got to be likable I've got to be compliant I've got to be well mannered and as that word you say about suppressing so so true like you're you're literally suppressing so much because you want a roof over your head if you're a regular kid with regular emotions like acting out being cheeky being your true self that might mean you you won't have a home and so you're in this really weird performance mode and actually some of our greatest stars come from these sorts of backgrounds because and it's a really sad thing to say you learn to be a really good performer which is a whole other conversation yeah but I I had to perform and and and underpinning that is is well I need to be grateful I'm lucky because there's some boys back at the home that I you know used to live at they they don't have a foster I'm waiting to take take them into their home but over time it just became really hard like we talk about touch there was no touch in that home and um that yeah the the the church was hard for me as well I mean I came to appreciate I came to appreciate that church but again like I'm in this very middle-class setting and I'm with this woman that I don't feel connected to and I'm having to smile and again perform because I have to be this kid to make it in this home and I don't think that's talked about enough like the pressures of having to move between homes and having to recalibrate and almost um represent yourself to fit into a new community I had to do that at such a young age always trying to work out what I needed to be in order to flourish in order to survive um yes it was really tough and the coldness just began to affect me and then little details began to affect me like the photo not being in the family photo Sundays she would eat with her relatives out she'd go out and meet her relatives and often I'd be at home and it just kind of disintegrated for me and then another part of that home I was introduced to respites I was shocked about this, which is my ignorance.

32:06I didn't know that this was part of what could happen in a foster family. So tell us about these respite moments. Yeah, basically me being summoned to a meeting of social workers and the foster mum, Carmen, in her living room to be told that she wants a break from me. And then I'm sent somewhere else for a period of time. And when you say sent somewhere else, you're sent to a stranger's house that you've never meant for a little break for two weeks. And again, you've got to fit in. You've got to feel some level of comfort so you can sleep at night. I mean, I felt terrified for you. There was one night where you got sent off to someone's house and she's like having a rave all night in her house and you couldn't get to sleep.

32:47I was like, I felt sick. And, you know, you're a dad. I'm a mum. I'm sort of imagining my kids in this situation. And it's heart wrenching. It's heart-wrenching to think about these moments where you're just sent off to some random person's house. Yeah, that moment, I haven't thought about that moment prior to writing the book for years. Like I've not thought about that moment for years. And like it's not even just come up in thought. And so when I was writing the book and I had to reflect on that for the first time for a long time, it was really hard. That was one of the most sort of triggering things to write about for me.

33:26the respite where they were having that rave as you call it because I don't think back I normalised so much crap back then that I don't think I really understood just how how wrong that was this woman and I'm sure she's a lot like what I don't want to do is um some of these people are are complex they have all sorts of emotions yeah they have good intents um they're not bad people but she had clearly been used to taking kids for temporary periods of time so when I went to her house there was no effort to make me feel welcome I've been told that Carmen wanted a break I'm sent to this to this house she's planned some sort of family party that night the night that I move in so I'm basically I'm basically in a bedroom and then all her family and friends arrive and it's bashment music and it's like cocktails and Kool-Aid and chicken and, you know, Caribbean cuisine and everyone's having a good time basically.

34:30But I'm in this room with no clue who the people outside the door are and I'm still processing the fact that Carmen wanted a break from me and that she didn't want me to be in her home. And I just remember being terrified to leave the room to get food. I was so hungry that night. and I was too scared to leave to get food. And I just remember going out in the evening, late in the evening to get a bit of chicken or whatever. And just the noise, the people, literally being in a foreign place, going up to this person who was now my carer, who I didn't know being like, can I have some food, please?

35:13It's literally like Oliver Twist. It's literally like Oliver Twist. and um i i have as i've said i haven't thought about that for a long time so to go back to that moment and remember that stuff was really hard and some you know there are policy people who say respite's a really good thing because it enables a foster carer to have a break and that is a legitimate point like you know if you're a foster parent you should feel supported you should feel like you've got the resources to be able to be a good foster parent but again if we're putting the child at the centre of that situation for a social worker to turf a child out of a home put them somewhere for a couple of weeks where that they don't know the community that they're in they don't know the family how can that be good how can that be good for their long-term outcomes um it was a horrible time well it's not i think we can say that's a fact that we we know it's not a good thing and this is still something that goes on today and yeah you know we know that there's flaws within the care system and it's a too big of a problem for any single person to figure out but it's important that we we know about this stuff and that we know that the reality of it around this time you were also having irregular meets with your biological mum yeah how was that they obviously seem the majority of them seem really positive experiences but never quite long enough wow wow um so i met my mum for the first time when i was in the care home when miles looked after me and um even how i met her was quite strange because it was in the kitchen of the care home with all these professionals around it was almost like a like a summer soiree type vibe like people have got you know plastic cups of drinks tuna sandwiches I don't know half of the workers um and I'm being told that I'm about to meet my biological mum and she walks up with a mate who who looks similar to her so I'm told guess which one your mum is and I think it's meant to be a really light-hearted comment but I'm like this is like the biggest moment in my life so far and the social workers telling me to guess who my mum is and fortunately I was right like I guessed the right person I mean as a grown man if someone told me to do that in that sort of scenario I'll tell them other words now yeah 100 % but you know as a kid with all these powerful people around you with authority over your life you are going to likely be compliant and so that was a very surreal moment beyond just meeting her like having to navigate how it was organized it was it she hugged me and that's a big deal because as we've touched on in that home there wasn't touch no and I I still can smell like her hair um oh geez Fern you are asking me the Oprah question it's really hard to talk about she hugged me and it's really Even as a grown man, I can still feel I get goosebumps saying that because I can smell her hair like brushing on like my ear and my head and like the embrace.

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39:07Yeah. Yeah, she hugged. That's all I need to say. She hugged me. But then from there, it was supervised visits. so it was we'll go to a local restaurant and I would have half an hour with her as a dad it's really hard to talk about and the social work would be sitting in the corner some meters away whilst I'd be trying to have a normal like get to know your mum type vibe and you can only imagine how emotional it was for her she was quite young still and And she's obviously got guilt. She's obviously got a lot of trauma herself. And she's now trying to present herself into my life again. And she was in care as a kid, as was her brother.

39:55So you have some understanding that this is a cycle in your lineage. Yeah. And you can kind of understand how she's ended up in this situation. It's, you know, you know how the care system works at this point. I I've always been very sympathetic and loving to my mom I've I've never seen her as someone who's done something wrong especially now as as an adult like I I can only imagine what she would have gone through you know when she was a kid to have been in care she was doing the best with what she had and the lack of resources and tools that she had but to to have these like fragmented visits where I'm being supervised by professionals again like this stuff still happens and some experts might say well you need to have safeguarding measures in place when you're creating a connection for the first time because we don't know what the mum could be like or whatever any valid reason but that's not going to be good for the kid and um I just yeah it it was really it was really hard to navigate the kind of furniture of how I met her and then our first big trip like those those sort of incremental supervised visits went well and then it kind of all led to ash you can have a day out with your mum at Chesenton world of adventures and it's I was so excited but how bittersweet is it for me to to say that like that was some big moment that should have been the norm for me yeah um and then that led to a sleepover with her and it just kind over time developed yeah it's a lot I know it's a lot for you to even talk about so I appreciate it so massively you talking through your story because it's it's not easy and it's it's by no means simple yeah more change of foot you change foster homes so you've been living with Carmen in this uncomfortable situation and during one of these was it a respite it was a respite yeah with Evelyn and Clinton a family who also had a daughter a couple of daughters um you felt at home you actually felt embraced and welcomed and at one of these meetings with your and this is the other thing that we have I mean there's so much to cover in this story but the other change that seemed relentless was your social worker kept changing so it's not just foster families and carers your social worker who seems to be a vital cog in this wheel whether you like it or not keeps changing so there's just no consistency yeah well you know to that point you know we talk about attachments in early years and the importance of having a consistent person adult that loves you for most kids in care that is just not a possibility now it's important to say there are some incredible foster parents great great social workers who are working in a really creaking and ill-equipped system but the norm is for a looked-after child that you're not going to have a consistent relationship if you're in the system long enough yeah um so yeah i you know i I talk about how hard it was to leave Joyce's at the start.

43:15But over time, I am trying to protect myself. I'm trying to become a bit colder, a bit more detached. I'm not trusting these adults. I'm not, when I get a new social worker, I'm not trying to get to know you. I'm not trying to cultivate a relationship because I know for a fact that that social worker, that adult, that teacher, that foster carer is likely going to let me go. So you normalize rejection. What a horrible thing to have to do as a kid. You normalize not being wanted. And then if you do something wrong, if you make a mistake, if you get in trouble at school, you then are anticipating that that will translate to I don't want you anymore from some adult in your life.

44:04In terms of attachment, I can only I'm not an expert in attachment, but I can only imagine how that messes you up. And that's something that as an adult, you've got to work out in your own time, probably forever. It's not going to be a quick fix with that one because it's your whole childhood, your whole childhood. This seemed like a pivotal moment in the book where you really, for whatever reason, felt you could advocate for yourself and say, I don't want to be at Commons anymore. I'm going to go and live with these guys. And Evelyn and Clinton seem to happily accept you into their world. and Carmen was accepting of it.

44:44So you got to move and that seemed like a moment of autonomy that you perhaps hadn't experienced before then. Yeah, the first time. So I went on this respite with Evelyn and Clinton. At the end of it, at the end of the two week period, they said, you know what? We'd love to have you. And I, at the time was like, oh, this is amazing. Like I should be so chuffed. But actually looking back, I'm like, I shouldn't feel so grateful. I shouldn't have to feel so grateful innate care system that someone wants to care for me but again that's another conversation like when I moved for the long haul to to even in Clinton's I'd say it was the best home that I had because they just they paid attention to details they I felt included and you know again like the fact that I felt so grateful so positive so lucky I think it's the term so lucky about being feeling so lucky that I am loved I think is sad um a lot of children in the care system don't get the privilege of an Evelyn and Clinton where they've got a family wanting to take them in and wanting to keep them for a long period of time yeah it like you say you shouldn't it should be a given that that's the sort of home you end up in some good things happen during this time Yeah.

46:05You've got their daughter, Kelly, who's particularly studious, having some sort of subconscious effect on how you approach your studies. Like, maybe I could do that a bit, too, because understandably, school hadn't been particularly easy. There'd been suspensions and expulsions and moments where you were getting called into offices, etc. But that seemed to be pivotal. Married with Miss Leaf, who saw this glimmer in you, like this kid's got something about him and we're going to highlight his strengths here. Which again goes back to us talking about Miles and how important these key figures are in kids' lives to instill confidence and to cultivate hope that they can do whatever they set out to do.

46:55So you had these two new things going on for you that felt hopeful for the first time. And that led to some seminal change. So talk to us about this. You're starting to take your studies more seriously. I know that it's not as sort of like glorious as I'm making out here. It sounds almost reductive in the way I'm telling this story because you had this looming fate ahead of you, which was leaving the care system at 18. Yeah. Goodbye care system. You're out in the big wide world on your own with nobody. Yeah. And you get yourself a council flat. Good luck. Yeah. So this is, this is looming. You know, that date's coming and you know, you've got to pass your A levels because you've now got this new goal in your sights.

47:48So talk to us about what was going on around this time. Wow. So much. Um, Wow. Because of this home and you touch on Kelly being academic, there was this kind of transfer that unwittingly where I begin to do well at school. This is against the backdrop of me getting in trouble often. And then I went to a regular state school and I get these GCSEs that are one of the highest sets in the school. so I was shocked like I was like I was like yo this is crazy like I've got A stars and A's and it's not about the grades but it's the fact that for the first time teachers are seeing potential so because of those grades Miss Leaf others they're seeing this potential in me so they then decide that they want to invest in my journey into sixth form college and that leads to me going to a summer school story short I then decide that I want to apply to Cambridge Parking University which is is so wild right because as a kid in the care system I'm sure you can imagine it is not normal to want to go to Cambridge University and it is a leap it's a leap to go from being shunted between homes getting in trouble getting excluded getting suspended to then saying I really want to go to like one of the most elite universities in the country in the world in the world in the 100 % yes and I still look back at that time and I'm like where did I get that resilience from like where did I get that vision I still can't really articulate it but love helps with aspiration and being in a home where I felt loved and love is such a complex and interesting word and it means many things to different people but just feeling like I was wanted, feeling like the family I was with valued me, they believed in me, that was world-changing.

49:50It was world-changing. And so, as you say, I'm also having to grapple with the very big, looming reality of leaving care. So, on one hand, this bloke wants to go to Cambridge University, he wants to do that process, do the interviews, do the exams, but also he's being told by his social worker that well I was being told that at 18 you've got you're going to move into a council flat so I'm juggling like my future and the wide-eyed aspiration of what I could do versus oh but at 18 like can I even cook a meal can I do my laundry can I pay utilities and there were times where those two aspects of thought clashed so for example I was told that if I wanted to go to university outside London I'd forfeit my right to a council flat because when you leave care you get a council flat so that could have crushed my aspiration and there were so many moments of the leaving care process that could have really put to the grave any potential I had for university or anything else I had the resilience to navigate that and I'm grateful that I got through it I'm grateful that I left care got the council flat went to university went to Cambridge went to Cambridge but the average like you shouldn't have to feel so resilient at 16 17 you shouldn't have to battle the system to get the support you need to to to do well and it felt like an upstream struggle for so many years advocating for myself challenging the local authority going to my local MP because I wanted somewhere to live when I went to university like I shouldn't have had to do all of that stuff to make it at Cambridge but I did it and I'm chuffed yeah and it served me well it served me well oh it's just honestly it's so brilliant there's so many thoughts coming into my head right now because I think for so many kids whether they're in care or I don't know, they're in a family where they could be the first person to go to university.

52:02Like my brother was the first person in our family to go to university. No one had been to university before. I didn't go to university. But often there's this weird sweet spot of like, how big do I dream? Am I allowed to have these big aspirations? Is this blue sky thinking or is this me being deluded? And I think people get really confused about that, especially young people. Like, can I break the mould of my family, my community, my background, whatever it might be? What would your response to that be? Wow, that is a lovely question because I think, at least since being an adult, the one conviction I have is that your aspiration, your vision for your life should not be determined by your starting life.

52:45It shouldn't be determined by debilitating things that people have said. It shouldn't be determined by your mistakes. you should have the ability to build a future dream for a life that is not inhibited and being a looked after child being turfed between homes making mistakes at school having to navigate the care system all of those things meant that it was really hard to live like that it meant that I had to find it within myself to overcome but now that I've got my degree now that I'm you know a broadcaster at the Beeb which again is not a place full of care experience people shout out to the BBC you know now that I'm in these spaces and now that I live the life that I live I am all the more convicted that me being a foster kid shouldn't deter me from what I want to do and I remember my graduation dinner it's like the best analogy is like the great hall in Harry Potter it's like it's it's people in black robes it's all intimidating things are said in Latin you've got all this cutlery anyway we're at this graduation dinner I've got my degree I've got a 2-1 in history and I'm nursing some ice cream I'm having my dessert and the master of the college because each college has a master.

54:09He stands up and he says, now it's time to give out this really bougie award. And he says, all us teachers and fellows were unanimous. This award goes to Ashley John Baptiste. And apparently I had just made a positive mark on the college. And I didn't hear him. I was still nursing my ice cream. I was just eating my dessert, being like, we're going for a rave tonight, graduating. And I'm eating my ice cream and a mate taps me on the shoulder. And he's like, oh, Ashley, it's you. this is so good i i i literally look and the master's got this fat silver cup this gong for the for this award and i have to stand up and i have to walk to the master to get this cup and like students are clapping people are cheering the haters are cheering don't you love what a has to cheer and um i'm getting this award and i just went back to when joyce let me go and and I went back to being in my council flat before uni where I was too broke to be able to put together some tuna pasta Fern and I'm going back to all these moments of feeling completely inadequate and and all those words in the media that you sometimes hear about foster children like disadvantaged the underclass I went back to all those moments yet here I am at Cambridge Cambridge University getting an esteemed award amongst, you know, some really clever people.

55:33And I just remember thinking like, there's nothing that looked after children can't achieve. Again, going back to that point, there is nothing that you should withhold from you because of your start in life. Like this was a private moment. It wasn't public, but it was so defining because I had overcome stigma. And obviously it's not always going to be academia. For some kids, it might be entrepreneurship or whatever, but we've all got talent. We've all got potential. We've all got something to contribute. And that conviction has really served me not being defined by my starting life. And it may not be like an opportunity that I go for.

56:14It might be who I choose to interact with. Like just because I'm, you know, mixed racing from South London, And it doesn't mean that I can't have posh mates or whatever. I think it's just about being open and not being defined by social workers and the BS that can come from being in the care system. Yeah, it's a powerful, powerful point that I think many people out there need to hear. It is deeply moving and incredible hearing your story. and I loved reading your book. Congratulations on it being published. Thank you. And thank you so much for teaching us more about the care system because I think we need to keep talking about this subject and making sure that those people that don't feel seen and heard, that we're really there.

57:06So thank you, thank you, thank you, Ashley. Pleasure. Cheers. God, where do I even start? Thank you so much, Ashley. for just being so open and honest and raw and telling your story with your whole heart open. I know for any of our guests, it's not an easy thing to sit and chat knowing that many, many people out there are going to be listening to every single word, but I'm so grateful that you did. I learned so much from that chat and yeah, you just tell your story so well, Ashley. Thank you so much. Ashley's memoir, Looked After. I urge you to read it. I read it in about three days. I couldn't put it down.

57:47Have you listened to Lem Sisay's episode, by the way? Oh, we all love Lem. We're going to start a Lem fan club. We bloody love him. He came on the show a couple of months ago and talked equally movingly about his experience of growing up in a care home. He's also hilarious and writes the most beautiful poetry. His books are incredible. If you go back and listen to that episode, you'll cry and you'll laugh. It's gorgeous. All right, until next time then, the biggest thank you again to Ashley, to the producer Anushka Tate at Happy Play Studios and to you, I love you.

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