Ashley Walters: Prison changed my mindset! How to reinvent yourself

0:00Hello, I'm Fern Cotton and this is Happy Place, the show that helps pick you up when you feel it's all falling apart. Today, I'm chatting to Ashley Walters. When they shut that prison door on me, I was like, wow. How did I end up here? You know, in your mind, you're like, I didn't see this for myself. I'm a good person. I'm not meant to be in this situation. But actually, where I was outside of prison, I wasn't meant to be. and I wasn't willing to step away from loyalty, from some toxic sort of masculinity that was going on because I wasn't strong enough and I was fearful of what the other side would be like.

0:43Oh God, do you know what? Every week, right, I go to do this little introduction and I think, what have I been up to? And I genuinely can't remember anything interesting that has happened to me or anything that might be relevant to you. But do you know what I'm going to say? It's been one of those weeks where it's been a juggle. It has just been chasing my tail, feeling like I'm not on top of anything at all, whether it's work stuff. I'm trying to write a new book at the moment, prepping for these podcasts, just general stuff with the kids. Who's got blimmin' tennis? Who's got cricket? Who needs a swimming hat?

1:18It's just it's chaos. What are we doing, guys? How are we meant to do all of this? I don't know about you, but I am still heavily relying on pen and paper and just having a list on my kitchen counter, which is sort of fast becoming some sort of Shakespearean scroll that is eight meters long. I mean, I'm overwhelmed. All right. That's my thing I'm leaving you with today. I'm overwhelmed and I don't have any of the answers or coping mechanisms. But one thing I would suggest is if you are feeling overwhelmed, give yourself a break. One thing I do if I'm at this part in my week and I'm really, really mentally just totally exploding is I listen to a podcast.

2:00I listen to all different podcasts. Obviously, I've got a lot of friends who are podcasters. So I might listen to Elizabeth Day. I might listen to Grimmy doing Dish. I might listen to The Rest Is Politics. Like I just love listening to other people's podcasts. So stick around and listen to mine because this will give you a brain break and you can think about nothing and just listen to someone who is absolutely fascinating. Today, I am having a chat with Ashley And I wanted to have this chat because he's obviously been one of the people leading some incredibly important conversations around male violence and online misogyny recently, thanks to the Netflix show Adolescence, which has obviously been bloody massive.

2:43And he's had a huge career as a director and recording artist. Obviously, if you're my age, you'll very much remember him from So Solid Crew, who I loved. But I wanted to get to know what makes him really tick. He's written about his upbringing and his whole life, really, in his new book, Always Winning. And he's clearly always had incredible resilience and drive. God, we talked about so much. And, you know, this is one of those episodes I could have chatted to Ashley for four hours. Not exaggerating. I barely scratched the surface. Yet he manages to tell some incredibly powerful stories in this episode.

3:22He talks about some big stuff. He talks about what he learned from being in prison, which was obviously a time for him where he lost absolutely everything, but managed to reframe it and get a lot of positivity out of that situation. he also talks a lot about not falling into victimhood and not pointing fingers and blaming others but being accountable to really help get focused on what you want in life and to really keep moving forwards when you've got a goal rather than feeling blocked by other people or your own bad luck or or adversity you know he's he's not let any of this stuff stand in his way And we also talk about self-sabotage, specifically addiction.

4:06This is something that he's not talked about a lot publicly, but more recently he started to get really brave, I would say, in talking about some pretty uncomfortable stuff and some times that have been really, really tricky for him. And I'm so grateful that he's doing so because I think what he's saying is very, very powerful. The market's uncertain. Revenue's tied and hiring on hold. That's why results-driven companies are using Upwork to keep work moving. Go to Upwork.com today and start hiring proven freelance talent fast. No bulky overhead. No rigid long-term contracts. Just the right expert right when you need them.

4:47Work smarter and faster with Upwork. Go to Upwork.com now and find your freelance expert. That's U-P-W-O-R-K.com. Post a job for free and get started today. Hi, this is Knox from the Popcast with Knox and Jamie. And maybe like us at the Popcast, you also know people who have been smokers or vapors. And Zen is the one product it seems like everyone is talking about. Because there are many good reasons to make a change to Zen nicotine pouches. Reasons like Zen nicotine pouches are still America's number one choice for smoke-free, hands-free nicotine satisfaction. And you can choose between 10 varieties, each variety available in either 3 or 6 milligrams.

5:23Check out zen.com slash find to find Zen at a store near you. Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical. If you're a custodial supervisor at a local high school, you know that cleanliness is key. And that the best place to get cleaning supplies is from Grainger. Grainger helps you stay fully stocked on the products you trust. From paper towels and disinfectants to floor scrubbers. Plus, you can rely on Grainger for easy reordering, so you never run out of what you need. Call 1-800-GRAINGER, click grainger.com, or just stop by. Grainger, for the ones who get it done.

6:04A Mochi moment from Mark, who writes, I just want to thank you for making GLP-1s affordable. What would have been over$1 ,000 a month is just$99 a month with Mochi. Money shouldn't be a barrier to healthy weight. three months in and I have smaller jeans and a bigger wallet. You're the best. Thanks, Mark. I'm Myra Amid, founder of Mochi Health. To find your Mochi moment, visit joinmochi.com. Mark is a Mochi member compensated for his story.

6:36Right, let's do it. Here's the show.

6:59Hello, Ashley. Hey. It's so good to see you. You too. You good? Yeah, very good. Very good. You've had one hell of a year already. Yeah, it's been a roller coaster. Not even halfway through. And it's just, it's been relentless. It's been pretty overwhelming, to be fair, at times. But I'm enjoying it. Yeah, I bet. I can't complain. I mean, I've got to start by saying congrats on adolescence because it's just been, it's not only made a huge impact just for people that love watching great drama, but it's had a political impact. It's changed how we view the world, I would say. Culturally, it's made a huge impact.

7:37What's that like from your point of view, being so in the thick of it, not knowing what the reception of it would be? How have you found that? Good. I feel like it's really good it's always you always set out right to to do more than just make an entertaining show like especially when you're talking about something quite specific right so you want to create conversation I just I guess none of us knew how much conversation it would create um and it's like the gift that keeps on giving it's like it's not slowing down anytime soon so no um but that's always good and I think for me I mean the the biggest thing I've taken from it is kind of how it's affected me and my family it's very rare that I will kind of be in a show and then kind of learn huge things about myself afterwards like what what's just as a parent just as a parent I was just like I realized like I'm quite uh I've been a bit too what's the word liberal as a parent like I've been a bit too easy going I guess with my kids with devices ideas screen time you know stuff like that like i've been you know i don't think i understood how dangerous those things can be sometimes so there are a lot of changes yeah happened in my house you know a lot of conversations between me and my wife just about kind of where we're going with kind of them and how much time they spend on on screens and on their ipads and whatever you know the stuff that they're doing on there as well that we maybe felt was like quite harmless actually you look deeper into it and you're like wow that could lead to this and that could lead to that so you know those sort of changes have happened and that's kind of been the biggest thing for me really and I guess like I feel like that is part of why it's become so big because before that I felt scared to have those conversations with my kids I felt scared I'm not scared but more like I didn't want to make them stand out like you know their friends are doing it so it's like it's fine right and you know I feel like what adolescents did was like say to parents okay you can all have the conversation now like here's evidence and proof of like the extreme of where it can go if you're not going in their room and checking on them and whatever and I feel like parents all around the world have kind of gone okay now we can discuss this openly without feeling like crappy parents yeah I mean I mean what a positive shift because it is it's a hard conversation to have especially when it's teenagers and like you say you don't want them to be a social pariah and not be communicating with their friends in the way that everybody else is.

10:26But I think having, you know, it's like the third most viewed Netflix show of all time. It's like, it's global. Like you say, the impact has been huge. So I think to have that collective conversation, it feels powerful, you know. I guess moving forward, does that put a pressure on you to always have that angle on projects you're working on where you know there'll be perhaps social change or cultural change? Or is that just too big of an idea? It's a big idea, but there is a slight pressure. There is like, I do like read scripts now, kind of like, well, what's the angle? Yeah, what's the point of this?

10:59How is this going to help the world? But you kind of have to put that to the back of your mind. I think if we was, we was thinking about that, having that impact on the world whilst we were making it, I don't think it would have been as good of a show. You always have to go into it trying to make an entertaining project and let the rest be God's work. Do you know what I mean? It's so interesting because I think, I guess, whether it's music or TV or anything creative, you don't know that you're necessarily making something that's going to be big, that's going to have that alchemy. Did you get a sense of that?

11:35Because it's not just, you know, it's got to have, there's so many variables. It's got to have a great script. It's got to have a great team director. It's got to have the most sensational actors who can bring that story to life. Do you get a sense of that when you're in the midst of it? Yeah, you do. I mean, we knew that it was going to be a great show. There was no doubt about what sort of show it was going to be. I've worked with Stephen Graham for many, many years. Jack Thorne's work is like undeniable. Philip Barantini. I mean, you only have to see boiling point to know, do you know what I mean, how good he is at what he does.

12:07So it was like the combination was already there. Erin, throwing Erin in the mix. I mean, Shaheen, casting. So she's been around for, you know, since I was like a young and kind of casting for stuff. So like all of that, all of the parts were there. So and on set, it was such a, it was probably the most peaceful sort of beautiful, spiritual sort of set I've ever been on. Wow. You know, there was a lot of like moments together, kind of outside of the work where we all just connected. You know, there was a lot of friends on that set, like real friends. and I say this because a lot of people don't understand you go into when you're kind of an actor you're making you're making films you're making tv shows you can literally jump into a job like and in the first week you know you'll be doing a sex scene with your the leading lady or whatever that you don't know yeah you don't know these people right and you spend like three intense months with them like every day more than you're with your family and then you never see them again you know you're out and you're on to the next one and that's kind of your life and it's very rare that you kind of get onto a set where everyone loves each other and everyone knows each other from previous jobs and stuff like that but that's what this was like it was like a bunch of my mates yeah I mean that I got to work with so there was genuine love between everyone anyway and I think that comes across on screen you know without a doubt like there is that sort of palpable magic about it and I guess also the notion of having one shot that you're almost combining that element of theatre that you know you guys have all got to be on your a-game and you're in this together it's like a proper team effort that I guess brings you together even closer maybe yeah the I mean the stress of it I can't even imagine brings you together I'd shit myself yeah yeah yeah I was I was I'm not gonna lie like most days I was like I literally I say all the time I was like going home going back to my apartment crumbling as I got out that cab as I shut that door falling on the floor crying and then once I finished crying and talking to my wife and her trying to pick me up scripts open and I'm on that script until like early hours of the morning because I just don't want to drop the ball I don't want to be part of the problem do you know I mean it was a lot of pressure um but funnily enough it was like after I I spoke to Phil a few times Philip and he was He was like, you need to stop caring so much.

14:44Do you know what I mean? That he was like, you're taking it too seriously. Like, let go of it, you know, and just go with it. It's hard though, isn't it, when you love something. Yeah, yeah, it was tough. It was tough to just, you got to remember to listen in those sort of situations. Every take was different. You know, if you're thinking about your lines and how you're going to say them, you're not listening. You're not listening to what the other person's saying. And when you're just in it and you're present and you just are the character and you're just going on that journey and whatever happens, you just go with it.

15:20That's when it became a lot easier and a bit more fun for me. Although I understand that that feeling of pressure is not always fun. Like you say, you're on your knees, you're crying. You want this to go well. You don't want to be the person that drops the ball. It does seem from reading this book that you've written that I loved reading. I learned a hell of a lot from it. You do thrive under pressure. That seems to be something that's quite motivating for you. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I've grown up under pressure. You know, I was speaking to someone the other day. I was like, from day dot, my mum has been saying, from when I can remember, you've got to work harder than everyone else.

15:57Yeah. You know, you're a young black boy from South East London. You know, you're never going to get everything the same way as your white counterparts. It's never going to be this. It's never going to, you know, work harder, work harder, work harder. And that's the kind of the regime that I was under. Listen, I'm thankful for her being so, putting so much pressure on me because I wouldn't be sitting here now today if she didn't. But at the time it was tough. And at the time, sometimes I didn't understand why. Do you know what I mean? I had to do so much. But yeah, I mean, that's, I've grown up under pressure and real and truly nothing has ever come easy.

16:36You know, so actually, when things do come easy now i'm like i'm a bit wary about them i'm like you know when someone's just giving you money or just like i was like well what are the um where's the pain yeah yeah or what's going to come with this like what are going to be the consequences of this um and it's true you know most things that come easy are not worth having too long anyway i mean you don't have them too long anyway and you don't appreciate them the way that you should so So I've always felt pressure was important. But there are still moments where I'm given a pressured sort of situation and I'm reluctant in the beginning.

17:14But I always end up jumping out of the plane. Yeah. I mean, it's apparent in this book, you know, you dedicated, your mum is one of the people that you dedicate the book to as well as your wife and your children. And she does seem to be this consistent person in your life who has some, you know, I think we've all got that person in mind who we're maybe not proving ourselves to, but we're accountable to that voice in our head constantly. And it was really fascinating reading about certainly your younger years where you definitely had this determination. I'm not sure many other kids had. Like maybe if you're lucky enough to find something you really know you love early on, a sport or a hobby, you might have that drive.

17:51But I think it's quite rare when you're a young kid, but you were actively, constantly trying to move towards your goals, have a better life for yourself, do the thing that you were passionate about, which I do think is unusual. And I guess the other, the sort of jarring element for you growing up was, you know, you had that, you wanted to succeed, you wanted to do well, but then you were also growing up in an environment where violence was commonplace, guns were commonplace, there were gangs, there was threat in your life that you could feel. How did you navigate, I guess, those two quite different parts of yourself?

18:30Role play, acting. I mean that's where I developed my skill I guess there was like there was two different Ashley's there was like you know the street wise Ashley that understood where to be what time to be there who to be around I guess and then there was um you know Sylvia Young theater school Ashley doing tap ballet and whatever else on the weekends and I kept those lives completely separate you know because there was a time where what I do now that I can celebrate and talk about openly I couldn't back in the day you know it wasn't it wasn't seen as I guess masculine or you know like the thing to do at the time so I separated the two and my mum was very good at inspiring me without signposting that that that's what she was doing it was like a holiday every year you know getting me out of the environment so it's Spain it's like you know not far places but Dorset you know the countryside like just taking me different places and books you know putting books in front of me um to I guess to develop my imagination and for me to understand that there was more than just my environment and it probably seems really like small and simple to people but especially then when we didn't have the internet when we didn't we wasn't able to see out of our kind of immediate bubble um it was important to have those kind of references to believe that there was more to life than the place that you saw every day um so I had a real strong understanding of like there's a world there's not just Peckham like there's a world there's other stuff going on there's other cultures there's other ways of life or whatever that I clearly understood that before I even left the home right and I noticed that a lot of my friends didn't get that like they had already made a decision without knowing it that this was it for them yeah um so that was before I understood what I wanted to be or what I wanted to do it was just like I wanted more and then even going to Sylvia Young like a lot of my a lot of my peers there a lot of my kind of um counterparts were like white middle class came from really amazing homes in my eyes um and they liked me so I was like I would go and stay over at people's houses you know these townhouses in west London like four-story townhouses with a kitchen in the basement and stuff like that and I was that was fascinating to me and it never made me jealous it just gave me like this sort of hunger like I'm gonna have that yeah how do I how am I gonna get that but this is the mindset you know the book is all about this mindset having a winning mindset and it's and that's not to be in any way reductive of the stuff you've gone through that's been really fucking hard and stuff that has tripped you up and these big road bumps in life but you have somehow managed to always have that mentality maybe go back to that childhood mentality of having hope and having optimism and aspirations you know it's it's not always a given I think especially when you're down your luck and things are going badly it's so easy to lose sight of that why do you think you've been able to always click back into that sort of mindset it's tough to say but I guess you know the idea of like always winning is just about it's like it's not like you never lose because like I've lost a lot but I've learned from losing like I always say like Like the biggest entrepreneurs, the most successful business people have failed several times.

22:19We just don't hear about it. And the reason why they're so good now is because of those failures. So I've just learned to not look at failure as like the end. You know, actually, it's quite good for me. You know, it's good to drop on my face and feel pain. because for one, I remember I don't want to do that again, you know, and I can see where the bump in the road was and look back at it and work out how to navigate it. And that's all my life has been. And that's all, I mean, essentially what the book is about. That's what Always Winning is about. It's like, let's embrace those bad times because they're all going to be a part of your journey.

23:01And actually, more importantly, the journey is the most fun part. And you're still on it. Yeah, yeah, I'm still on it. Like, it's still going. you know and I always whenever I get somewhere that I've wanted to get to I'm like wow this is there's another one you're saying that great what's next do you know I mean you're always trying to get to the next level actually the most fun I've had is the people I've met on the way there you know the trials the tribulations the growth like feeling like wow I got over that I got through that whatever that is the most important part of it like the actual win the actual trophy to me anyway personally is never that great when i agree when i get it it's like okay fine like you know i enjoyed the other bit of it and um and yeah so that's what i kind of i hold on to um and that's like alluding to what you were saying before like you know just about like embracing those painful moments when they come up or whatever my memory goes yeah this is good for you this is this is good this is don't run away from this when you feel like you don't want to do something you should be trying to do it yeah that's why that's what happens when i get a script come through and i read it and i'm like this is an amazing script but this is gonna be hard how am i gonna play this character the accent the the physicality there it's just so much to do and your mind's going run away run away run away go and do top boy again just do something easy do do something where you know you're comfortable, like you have to fight against that feeling.

24:33You have to let your fear push you forward. Yeah, I mean, it's full on. So I think also people assume that when you get to a certain level of success or you've had these accolades and achievements, that the failure is perhaps less or that you feel it less. Whereas I think, you know, you just continue to have moments of success and failure constantly. It might look to the outside world like you're on this ascent, but actually it's no less painful And I absolutely resonate with what you're saying. You know, I've had big periods of like low mental health or everything seemingly just going completely tits up.

25:08And at the time, I'm hating it. I don't want to be in that. I don't want to be going through that. But I can look back and go, oh, my God, I wouldn't be doing any of this without having been through that. And I wouldn't have any of the resilience that I've hopefully built up or hopefully a bit of wisdom that's stuck along the way. You know, it's imperative. and your life has been this sort of, like all of us, you know, this sort of undulating wave of ups and downs. And I think when you can get to a place and you can appreciate, not necessarily like celebrate, but appreciate the bits that have been really shit, that's where you start to learn from it.

25:46I mean, you've had some big loads and some public ones and, you know, you've talked about it a lot before, but being in prison is a big deal. You were there for seven months. looking back on that period a period that could define your life very negatively forever if you let it you have managed to turn that into a positive and gain a lot from that period of your life what do you think has impacted you positively from that experience um well I feel I feel like that was like um that was a higher power moment for me now now I look back on it I don't think I understood that at the time, but there's been several moments throughout my career where my higher power has done for me what I wasn't willing to do for myself.

26:33And at the time when that's happening, I get very disturbed by what's going on around me. Like when I, when I ended up, when they shut that prison door on me, I was like, wow, like, how did I end up here? You know, in your mind, you're like, I didn't see this for myself. Or maybe I did, but like, I'm a, I'm a good person. Like I, I'm not meant to be in this situation, but actually where I was outside of prison, I wasn't meant to be. and I wasn't willing to step away from loyalty, from friends, from brotherhood, from some toxic sort of masculinity that was going on. Like I wasn't willing to step away from it because I wasn't strong enough and I was fearful of what the other side would be like or whatever.

27:28So my high power took it away from me, you know, said, all right, you're not going to do what you need to do for yourself there you go and let me sit down by myself and it was only in that moment I was like wow you know there's a lot of like my gran my gran's a very spiritual person very very religious and she would never send me any letters talking about how are you or whatever she'd just send me passages from the bible just different passages to the point that eventually I started to because in the beginning I was like I'm not reading this it's ridiculous um but eventually like you you know you got time on your hands yeah I started reading and just started understanding kind of this was meant to happen to me and I think at that point I started to take advantage of the position I was in you know I mean I was like I stopped feeling sorry for myself stopped kind of wondering why I was there or whatever and said okay well what am I going to do while I'm here how do I get positivity out of this you know I hadn't I hadn't passed my GCSEs in school I did pretty well but I didn't do as good as I wanted to in my English and maths they were offering GCSEs in there I took that I started working in the kitchen I did a food hygiene course do you know what I mean I was like let me try and better myself whilst I'm in this environment and let me sit down and analyze where it went wrong you know and I quickly realized like a big part of why I was there was because of the company that I was keeping um and no one in my circle I looked around me and no one in my circle I actually wanted to be like I didn't want to be like any of these people like I was more scared of them than anything else do you know I mean it It was like, and I realized that I had to like, if I put my, I needed to put myself in a situation where I'm the dumbest sort of person in the room, right?

29:30Like where all the people around me I'm aspiring to. Do you know what I mean? Like I want to copy what they've done. I want to be like them. I want to get to where they are. And that changed my whole mindset. That was like a big thing for me. And that came through books. That came through reading like The Long Walk to Freedom, Nelson Mandela. I read The Scholar by Courtier Newland. There was little gems in those books and my granny's letters that really made me understand about that kind of, like how I could change things for me immediately. So coming out of prison, that was the first thing I did.

30:10I became a recluse to other people. But to me, I was like re-evaluating what I wanted to do. And I slowly but surely just distanced myself from the world that I knew and this is not to say look a lot of those people that were around me at the time I have nothing against them I still talk to them now you know I take relationships for what they are but um but I had to do that for me you know to change to change my life so that that for me it had a huge impact in that way a positive impact so I can never look at prison as a bad time anymore you know it's kind of like something that had to happen it was like a it was a cocoon moment you know and I like I came out as a butterfly like when I came out of there I just had a different understanding of myself and the world I mean it's a really scary thing to distance yourself from you know we all create these little families for ourself people whether they're good for us or not but we want to belong that's all we want we want to feel like we belong and that we are connecting with other people and that we're loved or supported.

31:18And even when we know in toxic relationships, you know, that things aren't right, we have that loyalty because we feel that sense of belonging. To remove yourself, and I know obviously being in prison, you don't have any choice, but coming out and still choosing to press reset, start again and not have that family, that sense of belonging, that's scary. Yeah, it is scary. It's scary. That was the first time I'd ever done it. Yeah. I realise that now because I was really stuck in a cycle of like, I felt fear. I felt I needed the people there. I needed, you know, there was a lot of crutches and stuff like that going on.

31:54Now I reset in a second, man. Do you? Oh yeah, I'll reset tomorrow if I need to. I'm done. Yeah, it's like, no, this is not working. Bye. I've got used to that process. You know, my wife, we've moved a few times in our life, right? and she's like, she's always concerned about like the white goods. Do you know what I mean? I know this is really weird, but like just little things that I'm like. It'll be fine. Yeah, it'll be fine. I love that it's the white goods. She's worrying about that fridge. What are we going to do in it? We've got an outhouse. We've got like seven freezers in it, five microwaves, four washing machines.

32:35And she's always like, well, yeah, we can give that to one of the kids. You're a hoarder. She's hoarding microwaves. This is so good. This is so good. Just, yeah. Oh, it's great. Hi, this is Knox from the Popcast with Knox and Jamie. And maybe like us at the Popcast, you also know people who have been smokers or vapors. And Zen is the one product it seems like everyone is talking about because there are many good reasons to make a change to Zen nicotine pouches. Reasons like Zen nicotine pouches are still America's number one choice for smoke-free, hands-free nicotine satisfaction. And you can choose between 10 varieties, each variety available in either three or six milligrams.

33:12Check out zen.com slash find to find Zen at a store near you. Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical. If you're a maintenance supervisor at a manufacturing facility and your machinery isn't working right, Grainger knows you need to understand what's wrong as soon as possible. So when a conveyor motor falters, Grainger offers diagnostic tools like calibration kits and multimeters to help you identify and fix the problem. With Grainger, you can be confident you have everything you need to keep your facility running smoothly. Call 1-800-GRAINGER, click grainger.com, or just stop by.

33:47Grainger, for the ones who get it done. The market's uncertain. Revenue's tight, and hiring on hold. That's why results-driven companies are using Upwork to keep work moving. Go to upwork.com today and start hiring proven freelance talent fast. No bulky overhead. No rigid long-term contracts. Just the right expert, right when you need them. Work smarter and faster with Upwork. Go to Upwork.com now and find your freelance expert. That's U-P-W-O-R-K.com. Post a job for free and get started today. A Mochi moment from Mark, who writes, I just want to thank you for making GLP-1s affordable. What would have been over$1 ,000 a month is just$99 a month with Mochi.

34:34Money shouldn't be a barrier to healthy weight. Three months in and I have smaller jeans and a bigger wallet. You're the best. Thanks, Mark. I'm Myra Ammon, founder of Mochi Health. To find your Mochi moment, visit joinmochi.com. Mark is a Mochi member compensated for his story.

34:55There's something in not falling into victimhood, which we've all done. Everyone's done it. I probably did it yesterday. There's always a moment where you go, that's not fair. This shouldn't be happening to me. you know blame you point fingers at other people and i think when you can catch yourself and you know you're doing it then you've got the chance to change and that's where you can change everything you can change your whole life from that mindset but you know obviously for you that was an extreme wake-up call for you to have to do that but it seems to have set you on a path where there's no other option yeah there's no victimhood it's like i'm accountable for me and this is how i want to do things yeah that's the key word is accountability and this is not to say look I'm no I'm not perfect so there are moments where I'm like the victim yeah I'm complaining and I don't understand why it's going the way it's going or whatever and you're right you catch yourself about I think it gets easier it gets quicker it gets more natural for you the more that you do it like with anything else do you know what I mean it's like I say to my kids you know they're always complaining about things happening quick and why can't I just learn this now and whatever and it's like well it didn't nothing happens like that I was like how long have you been you know swimming you know my kids have been swimming since they were babies so my youngest two are like 10 and eight and they're great swimmers now because we started them swimming early but I'm like you don't just jump in the water and swim you know there's a process you have to learn it so why don't you understand that that same rule applies to learning Spanish that same rule applies to learning anything else it takes time you have to put effort and time into it and these things are important and you kind of you know it's quite scientific like what goes on in your head and the kind of the neural pathways that you've kind of consistently been using.

36:54So something happens, you're used to doing something. It goes, do you know what I mean? It goes down the same path. You do the same old shit. You do the same thing all the time. And the more you start stopping yourself and going, ah, no, I'm not going to do that. Like month six, it's going to happen a lot quicker. It's going to be a lot more natural to you. And that's just what's going on. And I guess what's been going on for me. and everyone can start that like everyone you know this is not just me that can do any of these make any of these changes it's important for everyone to kind of know that they have that ability and that's why I wrote the book was because I was like let me be really honest about why you think I'm so good at what I do because I'm no different than you I may have just had a different plan right or a different set of notes in my iphone or whatever of how i was going to get somewhere because i understood something but you can do it as well in whatever walk of life that you're in yeah i mean this is the book that you wanted to read as a kid like this is the book that you could have benefited 100 i think so much of your story and your resilience and and also the different iterations of your career have come from the patients that you've just talked about knowing that things aren't going to happen overnight that you've got to put the work in that you've got to be dedicated to that goal that you've got ahead of you and we were talking before we started recording I met you a long time ago in So Solid Crew when you came on top of the pops we probably saw each other a few times around that era and you know you guys were the biggest thing on the scene at the time garage music was everywhere you were the pinnacle you were it and you know you you have to you've constantly reinvented yourself and then you know you start your acting career you're back on the first rung of the ladder you've got to start all over again no one cares that you're in so solid crew this is a film set and you need to learn your craft earn the respect of the people around you how much are you still willing to do that now because you know can you get any i mean i know you said you've always got these goals you've always got new things you want to do but that takes a lot to keep reinventing to keep pushing yourself in these new areas to be the best best you can be yeah but it's the same as what we were talking about before it's like i'm trying to be in uncomfortable spaces because i want to grow like the the whole thing around acting for me was like i've never enjoyed acting like i've never it's it's so it's uncomfortable but more than that it's awkward for me because i have anxiety i hate being in front of cameras this is great yeah it's like i look for all the casting directors still hire me please but um but yeah so i've always like you know i get before i'm doing a show i get scared i'm like working with other people and being in like rooms of a lot of people whatever it's difficult for me yeah like no one understands how much of a struggle like i see some other actors they love it you know they love that energy and whatever i'm really i get real kind of anxiety around those situations so to get up and go to work every day for me is difficult and then also acting it became I know the process so much I know the process so well and I think I was doing you know doing top boy I love top boy so I don't want people making comments about like that I'm disrespecting the show I love the show but it got boring for me like playing that same character you know I started when I was like 27 or something playing Deshane and finished nearly at 40 years old like it was a long time and and I lost a lot of love in that in throughout that process for for acting so I decided I wanted to become a director do you know me because i would go back to the first rung again no one didn't give a crap about who i was as an actor it was like nope you're still starting from the bottom we're still not paying you any money do you know what i mean it's like you've got to pay your dues other that directing community was still like oh here we go another actor trying to be like one of our do you know i mean you're in that space again.

41:19And I love that. Yeah. Secretly, you know, I'm not shouting it from the rooftops, but I'm like humble. Like, yeah, I'm going to learn. I'm going to kiss ass. I'm going to follow these people and go to these events and whatever. And I'm really enjoying being in that space. It's learning, isn't it? I feel the same. I need to constantly be learning and constantly be, I guess, constantly sort of shitting myself. That feeling you talk about of the anxiety of doing your job. I certainly have it. I have this deep sense of relief. I almost look forward to it. The end of a day like this where I've got two podcast recordings.

41:56I'm engaged. I'm loving it in the moment. But beforehand, I'm like, I want this to go well more than anything. I am desperate for this to go well. I want to be on my A game. I don't want to feel anxious or awkward in it. And then the end of the day, the relief is the best feeling ever. And sometimes I wonder, is that enough? Just feeling relieved? Like surely I need to get to a place where there's more comfort. But I think it's a delicate balance between comfort and complacency. And I've definitely been there. Like when I was at Radio 1, again, like with your top boy, I loved Radio 1. Very grateful for that experience.

42:31But I was complacent. It was easy to do that show. I knew I could do it with my eyes closed and I don't like that feeling. But I think it's hard to get what's the middle ground. There's like shitting yourself or complacency. Where's that sweet spot? It's hard. I mean, there is a balance. but I do feel like it's natural for us to kind of get somewhere and at some point feel like we need a new challenge like who says that we should just stay in the same place forever I agree you know I'm like I just started learning Spanish like six years ago yeah I mean I'm terrible still but I've had six weeks of real that's just for fun this is not for a job no this is just because I'm like why not yeah I'm you know I want to challenge my mind yeah I've always wanted to learn another language yeah so why not but it's that I mean that's part of it it's just it's part of like just challenging yourself and pushing yourself as much as you can I think you know I think like I feel like successful people have that in common yeah you know that that want to always to the minute you start to feel comfortable the minute you start to feel comfortable that that's when it feels really awkward yeah that's where it feels like you know i'm sure when you started at a radio one when you first got in front of that desk terrifying or whatever it was terrifying i mean i i actually did a um what they call it a pilot yeah yeah for um one extra one of these many many years ago and that was like i mean i was terrible oh I was when I started we all were it was the most difficult thing it's so hard do you know what I mean I've ever done so and I saw you you achieved something real great like to go from that uncomfortability do you know what I mean being in that space to at the end of it where you're like I could literally kind of just dial this in if I wanted to so it's I guess it's done yeah exactly and then you find a new challenge I totally agree I mean in the book you talk a lot about your relationship with self-sabotage as well, which again, I think is a massive block for so many people who have got goals, dreams, aspirations, is that they fall before the first hurdle, which is that self-sabotage of you're a piece of shit, you can't do this, imposter syndrome, everything that comes with it.

44:52Where are you at with that today? Because it's taken on different forms in your life as well. It could have been, you know, you've talked about in the book, lots of different moments on set where you don't feel like you've been at your absolute best and you've been called out for it. You also talk about addiction problems, which is something you're perhaps just comfortable talking about now, but hadn't been previously. That seems like a form of self-sabotage that took its hold more than you would have liked. Yeah. I think, I feel like that, that the addiction for me was more about like trying to be able to be someone, right.

45:30To be the person that could perform. So actually, and this is going to be really strange and I don't want people to take it the wrong way, but it was needed for a period of time. You know, I the imposter syndrome within me was so great that I wouldn't have turned up if I wasn't drunk or high. Sometimes, you know, it got really bad towards the end and it took me the other way. So actually I did stop turning up. do you know what I mean because it was that bad for me because I didn't want people to see me in such a bad way but in the beginning it was great you know a lot of addicts will tell you this it worked for a long period of time for me and that's why people didn't know they did like because it was it was helping me it was aiding me it was giving me the strength and the confidence to speak to people that I was shit scared of speaking to to be in rooms that I felt I didn't deserve to being it gave me all those things for a long period of time until it didn't but it was never you know one that's one thing I realized as soon as I got help it was never about the drink or the drugs you know for all the time that I was kind of trying to stop doing it I was always blaming the drink and drugs I was always like why can't I stop it's got a hold of me you know I mean And you're like, that's how I saw it as like such an evil thing.

46:56But no, when you think about it, there's loads of people in this world that can drink and take drugs and lead really decent lives. Lead really decent lives. I had a problem within me from before those things ever came into my space. And that was my self-belief. belief you know it felt like that like and this is it's probably quite cliche but it felt like everyone else had a memo or got a memo that I just didn't receive like everyone else had the manual to life I didn't get it so I'd be in spaces I'd be like how the fuck are they like how can they talk to each other like that how come they take each other's numbers and maintain relationships after because I just didn't know how to do any of like the normal stuff like it just wasn't it wasn't I just didn't have it in me and the minute I found drink the minute I found drugs the minute I realized that that wasn't frowned upon in my circle and where I worked I was like I was gone you know I was like I can fit in now like and now I'm part of the the gang actually I'm the leader you know I mean I was like the life of the party I'm the one getting everyone out I'm making the moves but addiction has a funny way of like you know it wants to isolate you it will eventually isolate you and that's what happens you know all of the the yet that I said you know well how can I be a drunk I'm not sleeping on a park bench yet you know I'm not begging any or stealing anyone's money so how can I be a drug addict yet you know the minute like those things started to creep into my lifestyle sometimes even when I didn't have to do any of that stuff the problem was you know it was evident it was like it was there and um and I think that the the clincher was family you know um destroying the people around me you know not just hurting them but destroying the people around me because I had taken control of everything that had happened you know when we were just talking about higher power and I was very spiritual before you know understanding that okay maybe this happened for a reason or the way I got into Soul Solid, all those things.

49:32I was able to articulate about those things. Like that was divine. That was like universal law. Like I started thinking about it. I knew I was a fan of the group before I was in the group. And I said, one day I'm going to be in that group. And I would say that to myself every day. And I would, do you know what I mean? And I gradually got closer to it. All of that stopped when drugs and drink came into my life and I became God. You know, this was down to me. this is all happening because of me you have a car and a house because of me you have you don't mean those clothes on your back because of me you know and I and that's the person I became to my kids to my wife you know to my mom and yeah that was a sad time it was it was you know it was a very difficult space for everyone else to be in um and I wasn't seeing it I wasn't seeing it you know I was turning up to to family events and turning up to places and people wouldn't talk to me you know they'd be like hi you know kind of walk past and whatever and I'm like hell is wrong with you it's only now I'm sober and I've sat down with those people and they feel free to talk to me about what happened in the past that they're like I was shit scared of you because don't you remember that time when you smashed everything up in the kitchen or you did this or you did do you know what I mean?

50:55It's like, oh, okay. I get it. You know what I mean? I get it. Like, I mean, I probably can't remember the amount of times I hurt people that were close to me throughout that period of time. And, you know, you feel so guilty for it. The way I've got better is by understanding that I have to wipe the slate clean. I had to clean my side of the street and then draw a line in the sand and beg people to move forward with me, you know, and let them know that I'm going to make amends every day. You know, this will never stop me being in debt to you. You know, I'm not saying I'm out of your pocket. I'm just saying that you have to give me a chance now, you know.

51:46And it's been tough for everyone because it's very easy for the person in recovery to be like, well, I'm changed. Come on, everyone. Why are we not smiling and dancing? And do you know what I mean? And everyone's like... Yeah. How dare you? Yeah. It's amazing you've got that, again, ability to see from everyone else's angle and to also be humble and to say, you know, please come with me on this journey. and ask for that permission. I think that's quite, again, that's quite a rare thing to do.

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54:06At what point, because it's so difficult, isn't it? When you're so in the trenches with addiction and, you know, it's your day to day, it's your coping mechanism. Like you say, I think so many people who have fallen into addictive patterns or who are addicts have huge social anxiety. Like you say, don't feel like they've got the manual to life. And it's a coping mechanism. And it might not just be drugs and alcohol. It could be, you know, for me, it was like I had eating disorders growing up and all sorts of coping mechanisms that were making things worse. But you don't know it when you're in it.

54:38you're just coping you're just trying to survive at what point did you think oh this is I might use the word addict here because that's a big deal to step into that space rather than like you say I'm just drinking I'm having a good time I'm out you know I'm partying and I'm and I'm and I'm turning up to work and people are embracing me at what point do you go this is addiction um it was a lack of control I think that kind of made me understand after a few attempts it was that that whole I I'd like even in my in my addiction I was highly functional like as a you know outside my house I was still turning up for work I still had the ability you too all right I'm stopping at six I go to work I come back at six all right I'm free to do what I want now like I could do that but the minute I went all right I'm gonna go to the to the pub and have two drinks and then come back and then I wouldn't come back for a week that was like at some point I was like oh hold on hold on I'm weak here do you know what I mean there's like there's something that is controlling me like it's got I cannot control what's going to happen once I put a drink in me and I couldn't stop yeah do you know I mean like for anything so you got your kid's birthday party you got you know there's things and people that you have to turn up for I couldn't make it I couldn't make it I couldn't you know I couldn't give those things the attention that they needed and that's when it was very clear to me even though I didn't speak it I didn't admit it I knew in myself like all right this is you know I'm done like it's got me yeah I'm gone here um it's only going to be people giving me help that is going to be able to get me out of this is not one of those famous sort of Ashley turnarounds that can happen in this moment anymore it's gone way beyond that point yeah um so all I was really waiting for we're not waiting for it but what was needed was a catalyst was a they call it a rock bottom right and I feel like I had several already that didn't seem to work but the one that did was my daughter was my daughter was six at the time and she knocked on the door in the house where I was kind of isolating and she said, I want you to leave.

57:18Like, very mature statement for her to make. She looked at me and she was like, I don't want you to live here anymore, daddy. And that broke me. I was done. I was like, oh my gosh. I mean, bear in mind for context, I'd had a previous relationship before this. I had older kids that were already not talking to me because of my drink problems and my addiction. um so I just I just saw the cycle repeating I was like you know this was meant to be a new start for me I was meant to be you know I mean being a better parent a better person a better partner um and I was just repeating all the same mistakes again um but when she said that yeah just change everything for me and it was like that night I rang someone for help that someone introduced me into someone else.

58:13And by the next day I was in rehab. I was gone, you know. And that was one thing that I never wanted to do. I really didn't want to do that because I'd seen the others before me, you know, in the papers, this person goes to rehab again, this, that, whatever. You know, you see all the front page and the tabloids and whatever. And I was like, I don't want to be that guy. And I've managed to keep out of the papers, you know. the amount of times I'd put myself in such crazy situations. I should have been plastered all over the papers from way before that point, but I'd managed to stay below the radar.

58:50So it was like, do I want the world to know, you know, what I've been going through? No one sees me as that person, but getting help was more important, you know, so I took the leap and that changed my life. Just changed my life. And also being able to talk about it where we've not got time or room for shame in this conversation we've got to have these open chats about addiction and getting help and and the depths that it takes you to you know massive hats off talking about it in this book and in and in this podcast today because so many people are affected by it whether it's them going through addiction family members going through addiction having parents that are you know addicts it's it's really hard so i think having this chat where you're being so open and honest it's so powerful it's so powerful and I think you know not only are you able to break cycles in your own family lineage and your own patterns and seeing that you're making that positive change but that ripple effect I think is massive yeah yeah I mean I don't I feel like that's the only reason why I've done this to be honest um you know I mean who knows whether the book's gonna sell or not or whatever it was just like I always knew once I was like proper in recovery that at some point I need to speak about this.

1:00:07Because actually what I witnessed was a lot of people that come from where I come from, especially in the black community, it's quite taboo to talk about this stuff. I mean, it's taboo to talk about like having counseling or therapy. Do you know what I mean? it's like it's not a thing that a lot of us are comfortable talking about openly or even doing um so that that level of vulnerability from someone like me I guess could be an inspiration for someone else to to you know to see that they can do it do you know I mean and not be ridiculed for it or so I just felt like you know it's important that I I document these sort of things i talk about this experience and there must be more to me being able to make that change than me being able to make that change it must be this must be relevant to to other people so many so many people you're now four and a half years clean is that right yeah correct yeah five years in november um it's a beautiful thing it's you know still it's one hour it's one day at a time you know it's never it's never like a foregone conclusion that it will always be this way but I feel pretty confident in myself about it and I'm living my best life now man it's no coincidence that all of these things that have been happening when I say around like adolescence and you know obviously the book and like just the stuff that I'm doing is part of the gift of my sobriety you know um and I have a lot of you know I found a community of people in my workspace that have been in the same position as me you know it's so weird because I was saying before about not having the manual and not feeling a part of anything and desperately looking for these tribes in the wrong places throughout my life it's like actually I found it here you know I feel so comfortable I've got people on the end of the phone that I can call that I know love me and I love them back just as much and it's like it's all worked out pretty well you know so that's so great it's where I was meant to be yeah so amazing on that note because it does seem like you're you know who knows where you're going to go next it just seems like you could do whatever the hell you want like you've got this drive and this determination and so much passion and clarity it seems as well at this point in your life where would you say is your happy place can you pinpoint it to either a place or it could be a mindset what does that mean for you um i pretty much know you've had other people say this but for me it's the gym yeah i know it's like boring I guess but it's the gym yeah it's the gym is where I kind of I evaluate everything like my mind works so even though I'm doing loads in there my thinking process I'm not thinking about what I'm doing I'm thinking about what I need to do do you know what I mean like and how that experience felt for me and the things that I can change um and who I need to be doing more for who I should do less for like all of that sort of self-analysis it's your little thinking space evaluation happens in there and I'm kind of and I've learned to really love that like I mean even before I kind of got help with my addiction and stuff I started running I was just like throughout about lockdown actually.

1:03:50And I was just running. I was like running 20K a day and just like - Fucking hell. 20K? Yeah, because it was just, it was space. It was just space away from it. And it's like - I love that you didn't just start with like a 5K, just straight for the 20. It started with like five or maybe three, but it built up and I just kind of, you know, I would just run and be thinking about myself and stuff and then look up and you know, I'd gone from Crouch End and I'd be in London Bridge. and I'm like, shit, I've got to go home. I've got to have the 20K back. Yeah, so now I've got to go back. So that's how it kind of built up and that kind of turned into gym and just understanding that it's been so powerful for my mental health.

1:04:32Yeah. So now we bought a place in Kent. We've got like a huge outside space and I built a gym. Love it. And I'm just like... There's no excuse. It's there. It's in the garden. It's there and I can... Sometimes I go in there, I don't even train. Do you know what I mean? Just go and hang out. Yeah, hang out. I sit down and I like, I get my like, my head stuff done. Yeah. You know, because I feel, I feel like sometimes we can easily forget about ourselves. You know, when you're in like a very, you're in a position where you're kind of taking care of a lot of people. You want to be selfless a lot and you want to do for others and whatever, but you can't forget that it starts with you.

1:05:12I mean, I think even in the book, I use the analogy about the, they're being on a plane and those oxygen masks coming down and they say to you as the parent, make sure you put yours on first before you put it on your kid. And in the beginning I was always like, well, obviously I'm gonna save my kid first. But it's like, well, no, not if you're passed out. You ain't gonna do anything for anyone. So it starts with you and I start with me and let that trickle down to everyone else. Yeah, it's a very good place to start because I think so many of us are burnt out. especially when you've got kids, you're working.

1:05:47I mean, you've got eight kids. You've got a lot of people to look after and you've got a thriving career. You know, it's a lot. You do have to have that time out to go, am I actually okay? How am I feeling? Am I all right? I mean, it's so, it's utterly impossible, in fact, to cover the entirety of your story and your life and everything that's in this book in an hour. You know, we've packed a hell of a lot in, but there's so much more. I urge people to read this book. certainly if you feel like you want to really dive into that motivation and drive that we've all got the potential to have but we've got these blocks it is the perfect like I took so much from it and stuff to just really get my head in a good space with focus it's it's a brilliant book so congratulations and thank you so much Ashley thank you for having me Ashley oh my god a massive thank Thank you.

1:06:38Ashley is so brilliant at telling the stories of his life. I could sit and listen to him all day. It was just, I loved that episode. It was one of those moments where even during the podcast, I had a little bit of headspace to think, God, you've got a cool job. This is a really brilliant moment. You're really lucky. And I do feel really lucky just getting to sit every week with a different person and getting to chat to them and hear their stories and their thoughts. and I definitely felt that today. You've probably already watched it, but in case you haven't, I think everyone on the planet has by now, you can see Ashley in Adolescence on Netflix right now.

1:07:13And his book, Always Winning, is out on the 29th of May. Right, we're almost in June, which means it's almost time for a new Happy Place Book Club read. The book you want to get your hands on as quick as possible to read along with us is The Names by Florence Knapp. I was hearing about this book like a year ago. Like the talk-up has been huge and rightly so. It's set in 1987 in the aftermath of a great storm. Cora sets out with her young daughter to register the birth of her son. Her husband intends for her to follow a long-standing family tradition and call the baby after him. But when faced with the decision, Cora hesitates.

1:07:53Is it right for her child to inherit his name from generations of domineering men? I mean there is so it's not just that guys I don't want to tell you anymore because it goes off in some very different paths very different tangents and it is just unputdownable you're going to love it it's such a good one make sure you're following at Happy Place Book Club so you can join in with the chat and get a load of behind the scenes goss from author Florence too right until next time massive thanks to Ashley to the producer Anushka Tate at Happy Place Studios and to you I love ya

1:08:48so

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