Beverley Knight

0:00Hello and welcome to Happy Place. I'm Fern Cotton and this is the show that champions the real authentic you. Today, I'm chatting to Beverly Knight. Would I trade what I have now and where I am now and everything that's happened to me over the past almost 30 years for, you know, that number one album? And, you know, everybody knows who you are and they're all tearing at your clothes and that. And you go back to your hotel room and just feeling like there's nothing. no way the ideal is that you know it'd be great to have a number one on all those things and but if I had to sacrifice my well-being and what I've got now in order to have that number one couldn't do it.

0:52Beverly is turning 50 in style the undisputed queen of British soul is celebrating by releasing her first collection of new music in seven years. The album, The Fifth Chapter, isn't out until September, but I've had a sneaky listen to the first song, and oh my gosh, it is so sassy and it is so joyous, which I'll be honest are also words I'd use to describe this chat with wonderful Beverly. The moment she walked through the door, the energy was literally sky high, and it stayed there. We talked about why it's so important we celebrate artistic expression. We talked about not caring what other people think about how we dress.

1:40We talked about ageing. Oh, I loved having that particular chat with Beverly. We're definitely of the same opinion that getting older is so brilliant and freeing. I think you're going to love this one. I absolutely love this time of year. The weather's finally warmer and I can really make the most of being outside which means I have even more time to do some walking meditations which I love when I'm out in nature which really calms and grounds me. If you find sitting quietly with your thoughts a little bit tricky, I find it almost impossible, I would really recommend giving walking meditations ago.

2:23We've got a variety of them on the Happy Place app, which are all created to calm, increase energy, or just provide that little moment of pause in your day. If you need help improving your concentration during a working day, a boost of energy on your commute, or would just like time out to enjoy nature, we've got a walking meditation just for you. And don't forget, along with walking meditations, the Happy Place app offers a huge variety of wellness practices, all in one place, from affirmations to breath work to tapping and everything in between. So if you prefer to stay still, there are plenty of practices for you too.

3:09Start your one month free trial today and you can dive right in and try one of those walking meditations before the weather turns. Head to the Happy Place website for more details. Alright, let's do it. Here's the show.

3:46Hello, Beverly. How are you? Oh, I'm really good. I'm so happy to see your lovely face. Oh, me too. I'm so glad to see you. It's been ages. It's been ages. It's been so long. I've sort of on off seen you over the last 20 something years. Yes. I've been doing stuff and you've been doing stuff longer. But it's so lovely to have a proper good chat today. Yeah. I know that you've been already you've had a busy spring summer. You were at Mighty Hoopla this weekend. I was. Oh, my God. So fun, isn't it? It's so fun. I went as a punter a few years ago and just was loving my life. And Glyn, you know, founder, Glyn was like, Bev, you've got to perform.

4:27You've got to perform. And I was like, yeah, I'd love to. You just let me know when. Finally got it together, brought out my little special guest, my little secret weapon, Mr. Adam Lambert. So we did a little thing together. It's just fun. Oh, I love Adam. He came on the podcast maybe just before Christmas. He's so brilliant. And obviously you've worked together on the TV show Starstruck. That's right, yeah. I mean, your voice is together as well. That's a powerful thing. It was loud. It was very loud. Oh, my God. But it's so fun, like doing a festival like Mighty Hoopla where the energy is beautiful, everyone's there to have a great time.

5:05It's so amazing. And I'm imagining that you're just sort of straight through gigging all summer and then you've got your tour in the autumn as well. That's right. It's so busy. It's just all build up to the album. I mean, you know, God, an album campaign, it starts way early. So it's just one thing after another and the promo. But it's all positive. It's all great. And do you know what? To be honest, as long as I've been doing this, I'm just glad that people still care. That they want to hear new music from me because it's so easy for it to just go, drop off. Yeah. But you've kept that consistency for three decades, which is no mean feat.

5:46You know, so many artists, and obviously I worked in radio for a long time, they have this huge burst and they just fizzle out. But you've always kept consistently there, which I think people underestimate how much blood, sweat and tears that takes to keep that consistency up. It's a lot. It's a lot. I mean, you look at the careers of someone like Kylie, who is having a fantastic summer, and you think from wherever it was, 88 or something for the first, I should be so lucky, to this point and she's just there, there, there. You know, it's people like that I look at and go, if they can do it, so can I.

6:24They just keep doing what they do and they love it and that's what happens, you know, to people I think who truly see this as their calling and it's not just like a moment in time. I mean, I don't think anybody would argue that Kylie as a singer is absolutely where she's supposed to be. So that's who I'm kind of looking at, you know, as my examples. These women, these strong women who are just there, just keep coming back, keep coming back at whatever degrees of perceived success, you know. But they're just there and they're still loving it. Well, you're right. If it's that calling and that mission that you have to do it, there is no choice.

7:04It's like this is what you're here to do. Could you imagine your life or you being you without performing, without expressing, without creativity? Nope. All my entire life I've sung, I've written, I've expressed performance-wise in some way, shape or form. I'm a live performer to my absolute core. from being at school, you know, the school production. Remember the old school productions? Yes. I was always in them. I was always like the tree or something. I was the Christmas tree one year. I had a cardboard Christmas tree strapped to my front and I just stood on stage. I didn't do anything. My first performance, I was a crocodile.

7:51I was Peter the Reject Eater who worked for Santa Claus getting rid of the Reject toys. Wow. Did you sing in that role? And I had to sing. Oh, that's good. I didn't sing the song Peter, the reject is I couldn't tell you. Beyond the first two lines, I couldn't tell you how it went. But you knew from that age that this was your thing. I knew. I absolutely knew. I've done this since I could draw a breath. Mum said that I was singing before I was talking. So just melody and performance was always there. Stood on a chair, performing to the toys, performing to mum and dad's guests who came round. And I just, I never shut up.

8:30I find that so interesting because when you look at, you know, either your own childhood or if I look at my kids and I think, how much of this is nature versus nurture? How much am I influencing them? But it seems when you've got something like that, where you're singing before you're speaking, you've just turned up like this. You've just, your soul needed to do this for some reason. I find that fascinating. Me too. And, you know, I have no doubt that I was kind of plopped on this earth to do what I'm doing. And thank God I've been able to do that. But I look at my nieces and my nephew, one solitary nephew, and I see them.

9:11All of them sing. All of them have the ability to sing. My sister sings, my brother sings, you know, both my parents sang. And I'm the one who's chosen to do this as a career. My niece Sophie is also doing this as a career. But any one of them could just decide, oh, yeah, you know, I'd like to pursue this. You know, I don't know if they'd get where they'd get to because it's such a tough industry. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But if they so desired, they could go on and have a life in music because they've just all kind of got this gift. Wow. And it's quite amazing. And it's kind of all the way, disseminated all the way through the family line, cousins, you know, aunts, uncles.

9:54We are just this big musical mass. Oh my God, I want to come to your house and just like sit and hear you all singing around a piano or something. It's gorgeous. But you're right. You have to make this choice. It's all well and good having a talent and knowing you can do something. But making that very dedicated choice, this is what I'm going to do. No matter what hurdles there are, boundaries there are, I'm going to do this. So you went to Wolverhampton Youth Theatre as a kid. At what point did you think, this is the thing for me now? I know that I'm getting told I might need to knuckle down at school, whatever it might be.

10:32But this is my calling. This is my vocation. Oh, my God. I must have been... In my head, I said it all the time. But when I started to say it out loud, I must have been about eight, nine, something. Oh, I told everyone, I'm going to sing. I'm going to be a singer. I'm going to act. You're going to see me on top of the pops one day. That was my thing. And I said it was such conviction that everyone kind of went, OK, then. They just believed me because I was absolutely determined. Didn't have a clue how I was going to get there. Not a clue. No connections. You know, I didn't go to like a Brit school or Sylvia Young or something like that.

11:20I just somehow knew. And I guess I manifested it, you know, before I even knew that was a thing. Totally. And I think there's something golden about the naivety of being a kid and not worrying about how you're going to do it. Because I felt quite similarly, I want to work in, I don't know if it was TV or theatre at the time, I loved both, but I want to work in TV or theatre. And I, like you, had no connections. I went to a local dance school in a church hall. And you don't care about the logistics, how, when. You just have this feeling that you really, really want to do it. And it's a difficult thing to sometimes keep hold of because it can be knocked out of you by teachers.

12:04I was lucky that my parents do whatever you like. But school definitely were, well, that's probably not going to happen. So let's, you know, work it, which is also important. But what I'm saying is it's important to not let that flame go out. If you really want to do something. Oh, my God. No, I'd agree. I was lucky. The school back to me. My parents back to me. I had so much support around me, but then I was an academic child. So I never let music encroach on the schoolwork. I kind of school did that, you know, tick the box and then the rest of the thing was music and acting and whatever. But I do see that a lot.

12:45I've seen that with kids who came up, you know, kind of my age. Kids who are really talented, you know, whether it be in music or sport. I know a lot of really talented kids whose parents were just not having a bar of it. You know, you will get a proper job, you know, even though these kids were outstanding. A couple of them were absolutely outstanding. There's a girl who was the same year as me. if she had had the nurturing of someone like Denise Lewis, I swear she'd have been a heptathlete. Because she was brilliant at everything. There wasn't a single athletic discipline she didn't smash. But her parents were like, no, proper job.

13:35I have no idea what's happened to her now. I mean, you could have, as Denise Lewis as an example, has proved an extremely proper job by doing it and then going on to also having a TV career after, et cetera. Exactly. And a job that she loves. And I think that's the bit that school is still missing somewhat. I know recently you were making comment about this saying, thank you to the Wolverhampton Youth Theatre. Yeah. And can the government please see that theatre, even for kids that don't want to follow a career in this, gain so much confidence, discipline and passion and creativity from doing something like a theatre club.

14:11Exactly. I mean, I certainly feel it's seen as, and all of these things are seen as add-ons, whether it's sports, art, rather than the main thing, which it will be for some kids. You know, for some kids, like my son is so obsessed with some sports, but music. He's really great at the piano, and that is his thing. And I love that. And I don't want to put more importance on, say, algebra than the piano, because he's going to use the piano a lot more in life than he's going to use algebra. But we're still in this archaic system of, oh, they're add-ons, but you've got to get Science, Mass, English, which for some kids is great, no problem.

14:47Absolutely correct. But for other kids, and I was definitely in that category. Me too. It's not going to work. Wasn't going to work. You know, any reason for me to swerve numbers and number-related things, I'm out of it. The only time I use numbers is counting bars of music. There we go. How many bars before I come in? There we go. Okay, right, great. But other than that, I'm just, my brain doesn't work that way. You know, that kind of relationship between numbers and music, great, fine. But sit me down to do algebra or even a really simple maths equation. I can't do my seven-year-old's maths.

15:28Can't do it. I can't do it. Literally, I'm calling my stepdaughter like, can you come and help me? I can't do it. But I think it's so important, not only because some kids will have a natural inclination to do art or sport or something that's seen as off the beaten track. But also it's so therapeutic for kids to be able to express themselves, even if it's just with pen to paper, to have the ability to express yourself. That being seen as an add-on still irks me so massively. It winds me up. No end. No end. Yes, there's an importance for maths and numeracy and obviously English. we're communicating yeah and the sciences yes yes yes yes yes however when you go to somewhere like one of those therapy places what is often the very first thing that they will use to break through to say a non-verbal autistic kid music yeah music and things that they can touch You know, it's music, it's art, it's that kind of therapy where you get some of the most astonishing results.

16:36And there is no denying it. The arts kind of tap into our psyche in a way that nothing else can, you know. I agree. And it's so important that we start looking at those things as being just as much a priority as, you know, your sciences and your maths and etc. I agree. I think even as an adult, if I'm feeling a bit flat, I could read one poem or hear one new song and instantly this new bit of me opens up. I think art always feels to me in any capacity like an opening. like I can breathe and there's space and there's newness whereas anything that I don't understand and this is again me personally like if I was given a sum I'd just shut down like no same not interested for some kids that is their art doing the maths but for me I think having even just looking at a beautiful painting it hasn't got to be me doing it necessarily but looking at something hearing something beautiful reading a beautiful piece of literature I feel alive in those moments And I think we need to encourage kids to feel that rather than to go, how many marks out of 100 did you get for that piece of art or for whatever?

17:52How did you feel painting that picture? How did you feel playing that piano piece? Like we're not tapping into the feeling bit of it. Yeah. And at our core, that's what we are. That's what we are. That is what we are. That is everything. That's the essence of being a human. It's what we feel, what we emote. You know, it's not always this clinical thing and, you know, marks out of 10 and something which can be seen as absolute. You know, this is right. This is wrong. And we have a system where we're going to measure it. You know, some things are just feeling. Yeah. And also art is one of those areas where rules just disintegrate instantly.

18:37Absolutely correct. But I wonder how you feel about this because in the context of what you do, obviously over the 30 years there's been so much change with how music is imbibed, with how people talk about music and with even like reality shows, how they've sort of changed the landscape. I always think about this. If you had a music reality show on the TV and you plopped a 20-year-old Bob Dylan on it, he would get the red buzzer. He wouldn't go through. No way. Because he isn't pitch perfect. He isn't totally the full package of what people want. But he is a genius and he is a communicator. And I'm using him as a random example, but there are countless artists.

19:23He's a brilliant example. But there's countless artists. And I think, you know, you're very naturally talented and you've got that gift that your voice is what would be described as perfect. You know, you're not hitting bum notes or whatever. But I wonder if you felt that pressure over the years and if it's got worse, that you have to have the full package presented perfectly rather than you being able to have no rules and just express your art to people. It's a brilliant one because I think when I first started and I had this naivety, I just did what felt right. If it hits, it hits. And if it doesn't, it doesn't.

20:01And, you know, but I was aware that I was in this industry and, you know, in order to keep going, you've got to sell. And but my my belief in just doing what organically felt right to do kind of led the march. What I've seen over the decades is in my own career is that I've had to pay a lot more attention to things that I thought were the fringe things, you know, how I present myself. Not only just, you know, physically, but watching what I say, how I say it, the whole rise of social media. This is the brand. That's what that's it. That's it. Yeah. When I started, I was Beverly Knight, you know, singer, writer, artist, human.

20:55Now it's Beverly Knight, the brand. And is this on brand? And would Beverly do this? And is this in keeping with the whole image and the whole package? And that is a real kind of shift that you either keep up with or you completely can fall out and make yourself irrelevant, which is which is horrible. Well, yeah, because at the end of the day, you want to keep singing. That's right. And you've got to do what you've got to do. You've got to. You've got to be mindful of the brand. I've always seen you as someone that has kept up this consistency, but without ever compromising who you are, which again, I think is really commendable, because especially if we look back to the 90s, when your pop career was kicking off.

21:42Yeah. You are in amongst this really explosive and interesting time in the music industry. Yeah. Britpop. Britpop. You've got a lot of decadence and you've got drugs and booze and festival culture. But you just were like, I'm me and this is what I'm going to do. And I wonder how much effort that took because have you always had a good sense of who you are? Because I think you have to to not be manipulated or sort of steered off into a direction you don't really want to go in. But you feel I've kind of got to to keep my career going. It's an interesting one. I've always just been me, you know, just the way people see me.

22:21And yeah, it was tough in those early days. It was tough just to be me because being me meant that I wasn't kind of around all the decadence and the excess. And that kind of got me labelled as someone who was quite dry and boring and whatever. but I just thought well I don't know how else to be what what do you want from me what is it you need from me I can't give you someone that I'm not I can't suddenly you know start picking up Jack Daniels and swigging them out the bottle or whatever because it's just not me it's not my nature my nature was to to sing have a laugh and enjoy and that was where I found my kind of my heaven, that was where it all worked for me when I was on stage in front of a crowd, mic in hand, band around me.

23:21And I felt like I didn't need anything outside of that except for shoes and handbags. What can I say? A girl's got to do what a girl's got to do. It's interesting because I think around that time there was so much pressure. And even, say when I was doing TV, going from like kids TV to then doing more adult stuff like top of the pops. I definitely felt this pressure of you've got to dress a bit more sexy and I'm not like a sexy person. I just have always worn what I've worn and it's maybe sometimes I'm a bit, I wear kind of quite androgynous clothing. I've never been overtly sexy because I don't feel comfortable doing that.

23:59It doesn't feel naturally like the way I would want to express myself. But at times I found myself adhering to it and being like, well, I probably should because, you know, that's what you have to be as a woman on the TV. And I did definitely at different points throughout my career end up not being so authentic in how I was presenting myself. And maybe I did a couple of shows that I knew would be a good work move, but weren't coming from the heart. Whereas now I'm very lucky that I feel I can really work with subjects I want to. But it's taken a long, long time. But I think I did lose my sense of self along the way.

24:36But I really see that you're someone that hasn't done that. And I wonder, is that formed from, Did your parents instil that in you? Have you always had a strong character to stick to who you are? I'm stubborn as hell. Yeah, it's a good quality. I'm really, really stubborn. And if I don't want to do X, I'm not doing it. I'm just not. You know, bottom lip is out. I'm not doing it. I love that. So you're good with boundaries, would you say? So, yeah. Yeah, I'm good at knowing, look, this is where the line is for me and if it goes beyond here I'm out, out, out Wow No matter what it takes I love this Beverly, I need to hear about this But he used to put me in conflict all the time with my husband's going to be listening to this laughing saying you're so mild I was the wild child I wasn't a wild child obviously I mean God you know me But you knew yourself But I knew me Yeah I knew that I wasn't interested in the sniff and the pills and the, I was interested in an ice cup of tea.

25:44I'd go to a club and sing. Honestly, that was what I wanted to do. And anything else was just not my thing. It's funny you talk about, you know, dressing and feeling that you had to conform. There was, I didn't have great dress sense when I was younger and I could put my hands up and say that. I do not want to look at any pictures on Google of me before 2020. I swear. I swear. Looking at the old pictures of me, I'm like, nope, nope. But, you know, that's where stylist comes in. Correct. But it's funny because as I've gotten older, I've become more comfortable with me. And I think that's been the key for me.

26:27I was confident in my art and in who I was and my music and what I definitely didn't want to do. I don't think I was, in fact, not I don't think, I know I wasn't confident in Beverly, the woman. I hadn't quite figured that whole thing out yet. I think it was only when I met the man who became, you know, my best friend, my soulmate, Tyrone, who sadly passed 20 years ago now, when I met him and he kind of held my hand and kind of guided me through, you know, how to be the person that was inside somewhere, how to be that woman and how to get me comfortable with showing a bit of leg, which I was absolutely terrified of because I thought I look terrible and, you know, and not wanting to show certain parts of me because I thought, no, no, no, no, no.

27:20Then people are going to think I'm dumb. They're not going to take my music seriously. It was him who I really credit with saying, no, you can be as sassy and as sexy as you want and absolutely be that boss and absolutely have people take you seriously. And it really kicked in, I think, after he died in my 30s and definitely in my 40s, I really hit my stride. And so now I feel like I'm in my full power. So now I'm wearing what the hell I want to wear and I don't care. No, it gets better and better. I absolutely agree with you. It gets better when you feel more and more like you know what's right for you without the outside noise.

28:07That's it. I think it's really complicated for women, whatever your career. It doesn't matter. Even if you don't have a career or a job even, if you're a mum, you're trying to work out how you want the outside world to see you, how you present yourself sadly is such a complicated issue because like you've just said there's the worry that if you dress a certain way people won't take you seriously people won't focus on your talent and your voice and we're still dealing with that today that is still very very prevalent for all women to be you know to be able to walk down the street and feel comfortable and safe but wearing what you want is still very complicated it's so complicated I mean god without getting too dark and dreary, but that whole thing of if a woman is in the awful situation where she might be assaulted or have unwanted attention, let's not go all the way deep, but have unwanted attention, why is the question asked, well, what did you have on?

29:09I know. Hey? I know. What do you mean? What did I have? I was wearing what I wanted to wear. I had clothes on. Yeah, it's not the woman's problem. It's not the woman's fault. Why is it on the woman? And it all feeds into this idea of your worthiness of being listened to, of being appreciated, of being someone who is a leader or, you know, just really good and competent. It's bound up in the outside garments. I mean, you know, whether they be not a lot or, you know, you're covered from head to toe. it's absolutely ridiculous it's crazy and yet it still lives in all of our heads it does and it did for me for such a long time and that has only changed with age it really has thank God but we need this messaging out there because I think again for women there's all this fear around ageing and you're ageing and oh my God what are you going to do you're getting older and you're ageing and it's like wait this is from the friends that I've got in their 50s, 60s Sadly, one of my very good friends who was 80 passed away this year, but she was a great friend of mine.

30:22And having a friend who's 80 is amazing. Yes. Having intergenerational friendships where you can have the different perspectives of women of all ages is so, so key. But aging is not something to be feared. No. Aging is something to be like, it's something to respect and to feel more and more comfortable, hopefully, in your own skin as you get older. Honestly. Yeah. I would say that to anyone out there who feels, you know, oh, my God, I'm 30. Oh, my God. 30 is nothing. You're a baby. 30 is, like, amazing. Exactly. You are a baby. Spend less time with your neurosis. Yeah. Bin it. Get rid of it. Work through it quickly.

31:12Quick, quick, quick, quick. and get onto the good part of your life. Because honestly, the minute you lose that neurosis of, what do they think? What do I look like? Do I look good? Is my bum big in this? Is my bum too small in this? Whatever. Once you get past that, oh my God. That's freedom. It is freedom, honestly. Standing on stage in this, well, I had on this outfit. I felt like Superwoman. I had on this outfit where it's like spandex with loads of mesh and the mesh is covering. The hoopla outfit. Saw it. Just covering the bits that are supposed to be covered and the rest was, well, it's out.

31:55Deal with it. Deal with it. And I stood on that stage and said, yes, I am Super Bev and you are going to hear me sing some notes today, people. So come with me. Heaven. And it just felt great. It felt great. And this is for people out there who are worried about either people that feel insecure or there's so many people. I was talking to a male friend about this this morning about body dysmorphia, which nearly everybody has on some level. And when we look at age, this isn't about changing yourself so you can then accept yourself. It's about accepting yourself right now and feeling free from, as you say, that neurosis.

32:40so you can enjoy being who you're being before you get to, oh, but if I just looked like this or did this or improved in your head, whatever, then everything will be wonderful. You've got to like yourself now. You've got to. It took me years forever to look in the mirror at this face and go, nothing wrong with your face. Your face is fine, you know. Absolutely nothing wrong with it. But we're constantly told that our faces, bodies, hair, whatever it is, are not OK. That's the messaging that we get. So we've got to work so hard to go, I like this face. I like this body. Thank you, body. Thank you, face.

33:22Thank you for being. For functioning. Thank God I've got all my faculties. Thank God I've got everything I need to be able to get through this life, which is tough enough. without focusing in on, I don't know, have I got a five head, not a four head? Is my nose big? The big thing, oh my God, especially being a woman, a black woman, the pressure to look or adhere to Northern European standards, oh, that's a minefield. That's a tough one. And I feel like I'm through that. I've come through the other side of the tunnel on that. And I can look at myself and say, I'm just me. And my features are blackity black, black, black.

34:15And it's gorgeous and it's fine and it's beautiful. And conversely, you know, looking at my friends who are white and, you know, my friends who are Asian or whatever and say, and you are also beautiful. And you and you and we are all gorgeous and we're different. And isn't that wonderful? We've got to watch these beauty standards that are being heavily, heavily pushed. Like you say, there are these certain, they're quite new norms. If you look over the history of beauty and the industry and how we perceive beauty, these new standards, especially of the sort of people enhancing their lips and pushing cheekbones up and very, very small noses.

34:55I mean, I've got my dad's nose and I'm with you. I've reached this point where I'm like, I love my nose because it's my dad's. And I love my dad. I love my dad's nose too. And I'm like, I'm looking in the mirror going, yeah, I'm cool with this, Lose. It's larger than life, but I'm here for it and I'm good with it. Yeah, same. But this is all age-related stuff. Hopefully, with age and wisdom, these layers of acceptance can be really achieved. And the comfort is very, very freeing. And maybe it's a very incremental thing as time continues. And when we're hopefully 80, maybe even 90, we'll feel even more of that wonderful comfort.

35:31If we go back again to this period where you're in the 90s, you've got this pressure, you haven't quite reached where you're at today, which is this amazing place of feeling empowered and having this self-acceptance. I read recently there was a strange paradox going on for you where you knew you had the skill for a start, which is the foundation of everything. Then you've got these incredible fans cheering you on. Then you've got David Bowie, like David Bowie just coming to your gigs and being like, I'm obsessed with you. Prince saying, come out on tour with me and being your number one fan. But then you didn't feel you had the support from the industry at the time.

36:13So that's a very strange end of extreme situation to find yourself in. Yeah. Strange time. Strange, strange time. I think because I wasn't perhaps playing the game, you know, I wasn't doing... There's a game to be played. And there is a game. There is a game. Because I wasn't playing that game, it was taking a long, long, long, long, long, long time, baby steps to kind of have this upward trajectory in my career. but at the same time I had as you were saying all these amazing people who were just backing me to the hilt so it was weird the the industry at large kind of didn't see me or hadn't seen me you know yet and still I'm still building on it now I'm still it's still kind of I'm still kind of consolidating what I've got.

37:16And yet, you know, those who knew me seem to love what I was doing. And there was this huge swathe of people who didn't know, didn't care. Who are you? What are you? You know? So, and for me, no more was that kind of exemplified when I got my first Brit nomination. Some of the wider industry was like, well, who is she? You know, she got this Brit nomination but I don't know who she is and that for me was was kind of like this is a weird weird place to be where I seem to be good enough to have this Brit but the vast majority of the industry and the general public didn't really know who I was but again you know time has changed that and just sticking with it the resilience and just belief which is a really good message in itself because I think, again, the trend is for things to be quick and for things to be very overnight.

38:20And if we don't see instant progress, we ditch things, whether it's a hobby or a career or whatever. And I think, again, when we go back to that feeling of it's a calling, time is irrelevant because you're in it for good. Like this is something you want to do forever. But I wonder how you felt about it within that sort of dynamic between you and the music industry, because I know these feelings very intimately. There was certainly a big period of my TV career where I wasn't getting any work, where I was losing out on every job to my peers. And I just thought, there's something wrong with me. I don't know what it is.

38:56Maybe I'm just weird and I haven't realised. I was very insecure about why I wasn't being chosen. I feel very lucky that I've had this sort of weird second chance to do something completely different, which I am running with and I'm controlling and I'm loving it. But there's this tiny bit of me that say I now get offered a TV job. There's a bit of me that goes, they do like me. They accept me. They see like I'm not weird. And I'm still, there's a bit of me. It's not a big bit, but there's a portion that is still trying to prove myself to these non-existent people. I don't even know who they are.

39:29The TV industry. Yeah. Is there a part of you that is still trying to win people over, prove yourself to anybody? In a word, yeah. As much as I've talked about feeling empowered and 50 and I feel on top of the world and this age and da-da-da-da, there is still that because I know what that kind of acceptance is a strange thing. it's it's the respect plus the benefits that go with it and that's I guess what I'm I'm kind of still searching for so if I have a record and that record is a smash hit you know and but the numbers justify it you know it's it's a top five album or you know you get a number one single you know I've got at my core I'm still like yeah I still want that because it means I've really really made a success of myself you know and even though sometimes some days I wake up and go oh well you know it doesn't matter that you haven't had a number one it doesn't matter that you know you you don't have a gazillion times platinum album and you know like my peers like the people who have come up at the same time as me or people who have come up, you know, since I've been around and I've gone on to huge success.

40:58I keep telling myself, you're still here, Bev. You know, that is really important. That is a goal within itself. But there is that part of me that still says, I still love a number one. Yeah. How great would that be? I always land on this when I, because I absolutely can feel like that and think, oh, well, it would be amazing to be asked to do, I don't know something big that lots of people watched or whatever but then i think wait a minute i know there are people out there with number one albums and with ginormous audiences watching them yeah who are really miserable really really really unhappy and i am doing something that makes me really happy yeah in my own lane and i would prefer that to a number one album a whatever I would prefer the success to be because I love it and I love it every day.

41:51Absolutely. I do think to myself, you know, if I looked at myself honestly, would I trade what I have now and where I am now and everything that's happened to me over the past almost 30 years for, you know, that number one album and, you know, everybody knows who you are and they're all tearing at your clothes and that and you go back to your hotel room and just feeling like there's nothing. Hell no, I wouldn't. No way. No way. The ideal is that, you know, it'd be great to have a number one and all those things. But if I had to sacrifice my well-being and what I've got now in order to have that number one?

42:41No. No. Couldn't do it. Couldn't do it. Couldn't do it. I see too many people who have to turn to other things because that number one and that kind of worldwide fame and all of that just isn't enough or isn't fulfilling. They've got to the top of their Mount Everest and looked over and gone, what do I do now? I know, this is it. But it's such a myth, again, in any industry, in any capacity in life, that the goal is to get to the top or to, you know, all the cliches, be famous, whatever it might be, to be at the top. But that's probably the loneliest place you can be. Because like you just said, where do you go next?

43:23What do you do? What are your dreams? What's your drive? You know, I like, I don't even know if I'm on an ascent, but I like trying to do what I'm doing. And the process is more exciting than this weird ephemeral end goal. I don't even know if it exists. It's so important. It's really interesting because I look at the career of Tina Turner. Oh, my God. Tell you what, I actually forgot when you just said that. Yeah, I know. Oh, Tina. Because you think... She's here forever. Eternal. Eternal. But I look at how her career went. She had this astonishing beginning, you know, with Ike and all of that and the touring and all the love.

44:07And everybody loved Tina back then. Everybody loved her. And then she, as we all famously know, she left Ike, thank God, walked away with just her name and no money and these children and she has to work in order to survive and I don't know how many years it was years and years and years of of doing Vegas and not really feeling fulfilled but in that time in that time all the lessons that she learned all the finding who she was so that when that moment happened with Roger Davies and him finding her and presenting her with what's love got to do with it and her kind of umming and ahhing over it and then doing it and then it all exploded.

45:03By that time, Shorty knew who she was. She was comfortable with herself she'd lived this huge she'd lived this life of such significance and importance already so by the time the the second wind if you like came round she just soared into the stratosphere and then came the number ones and then came it didn't happen until she was ready and I think there's a lot to be said for that often people say to me oh you know if you were born in the US, you'd be Whitney, you'd be Celine, you'd be Mariah, you'd be, but I'm not born in the US. You know, people say, you're so underrated, and you should have had success way earlier.

45:49But those things didn't happen, because I don't believe they should have happened any earlier. You know, I think I genuinely believe that if huge success had come for me early on, it probably would mess my life up. Yeah, I agree. I don't think it comes without sacrifice. Absolutely. Of the very normal, beautiful things in life. Absolutely. It happens when it's supposed to happen. And that's why it hasn't happened for me yet. Because it wasn't supposed to. I had so many lessons, life lessons to learn. I had so much to learn about myself and who I am and what I want out of life, you know. Now I'm comfortable and happy and ready for whatever comes next.

46:45So I think that's why great things are happening to me at this point because the universe has understood that I'm ready and I can cope with what's happening. I could have coped earlier. But you're also, you're doing so much. You know, your perception of success is very different to anybody else's because you know what your potential is. And, you know, like you've just said, what you're capable of because you are juggling not only the music that you're making and touring and performing on stage, but also these amazing theatre shows that take up so much time and emotion and energy. It's a hell of a lot to juggle.

47:26Do you, and I'm interested in this because I can certainly, because I'm lucky that I love my job, I can be a runaway train and be like, I want to do everything and I'm trying to create and write books and do all these different projects at the same time. Are you scared to stop? That's a really great question. Am I scared to stop? I think if I'm really honest, yeah. the idea of not singing or performing is scary. I just had to take a minute then to think about it. And I thought, the idea of hanging it all up, you know, and the microphone goes in the box and I don't do it again. No, I couldn't. It's, oh, God, that would...

48:19I guess if something happened to me and I couldn't sing, you know, God forbid. Oh, my God, I don't want to go there. But I would still have to have an outlet for creativity and expression. You know, if I couldn't sing it, I'd have to write it. You know, if I somehow couldn't write it, I'd have to then take someone on and show them the rope so that they could do it. you know, not in a pushy parent way, but just in a mental way. Yeah, creative way, yeah. Yeah. But the idea of just stopping altogether, oh, no, that's terrifying. That is terrifying. You know, please, God, I do this till my last breath.

49:08Because it is the joy of my life. It absolutely is. I don't know how else to explain it. But I wake up in the morning and think, yeah, and then tonight I'm going to go on stage or I'm going to go in the studio today or I'm going to go and collaborate or, you know, whatever it might be. I'm going to pick up this script and learn this long script. Oh, my God, I hope I can learn it. I know I'm going to be able to learn it, but I go through the process of I hope I can learn it. You know, that's my life and that, that gives me so much joy. And then to get to, through all that learning and that, you know, learning the blocking, learning the whatever, whoever the character is.

49:57And then I get to present it to the world. Oh, my God. It's just, it's wonderful. And yes, there are days where you feel a bit knackered. And yes, there are days where you're like, oh, the period pain's killing me. Oh, mate, I've got that today. That. Isn't it the worst? It's the worst. It's the worst. We don't talk about this enough. I loved that triathlete the other day who was like proudly bleeding through her swimsuit. She's like, tough shit. I came on my period and I'm doing a race day. Like, we have to get on with this stuff. Got to. With all of these things going on. And it's like, oh, my God, it's the absolute pits.

50:30It's the pits. It's the pits. And now menopause. And then menopause. Yeah, I can't wait for that. I really can't wait for that. Oh, I'm in it now because I had a hysterectomy. Of course, yes. So mine has kind of come on early, but I'm going through it with my sister, who is having a harder time than I am. Menopause body is needed. There's so much to contend with alongside that drive and that passion. And I wonder, how have you found balance? Because that is absolutely key in things not tipping into total exhaustion, burnout, etc. because you can still love something but burn out. You can still love something and be extremely stressed out from it.

51:10So what do you have in place to ensure you stay on the good side of that? My husband, number one, James, who is all about wellness, mindfulness, balance, because he was that man pursuing, pursuing, pursuing, pursuing. and it took its toll and it really took a toll on his health and he had to rebuild his health, which is why he got into all the wellness and health and all of that, the clean eating and all that. In the first place, it was to mend himself and to stop him going right off the deep end. So I thank God I've got James in my life. He'll be the one who will say, it's time to stop. We need to have a mini break.

51:58We need to go away. We need to take time for us. You know, you need to go and take Zane the dog out for a walk. You need to do these things. You need to go in the garden. You need to get some grounding in. You know, you need to stand still. It's a sunny day. You know, get this vitamin D into your system. But, but, but, but, but, no buts. This is me and my husband. This is the same. I swear. He, he puts me right. That's so great. He puts me right and I have to. And I've also got the most amazing circle of friends, you know, my good friends who will tell me the damn truth, you know. That's good.

52:41You know, they will tell me, are you sleeping? You know, because your face is telling me that you're not. You know, stop stressing about this, this, this. This will be all right. And they absolutely will tell me the truth. that's so important to have and then my family who are the earthiest most normal people I go home to Wolverhampton all the time I said home I've lived in London it's still the mothership it's still home I swear Wolverhampton will always be home any chance I get I'm home I'm off home tomorrow actually So nice. And mum will always just put me right, you know. I've still got the front door key and I let myself in and I'm just Bev.

53:30I can completely switch off and my family will always be the most real and normal with me. And Wolverhamptoners, you know, I still go to the market with my mum to help with the veggies and stuff. and they're just, oh, all right, Viv, how am you? You know, I need those things to remind me of, not that cliche thing of, oh, look of where you've come from and look at where you are. It's not that. It's returning to who I am at my core. And that, for me, is essential so that I never get lost in showbiz or I don't burn out. If I feel like I'm doing too much, I need to have husband, friends, family around me.

54:19Well, it's so easy to do too much because there's always another thing that you could be doing. There's always an email to reply to, an idea you could be creating. And I've had to learn. Well, I remember I think one of the last times I saw you, which was terrifyingly ages ago, was at the Children in Need concert and you collapsed on stage. And was that burnout? Was that exhaustion? That was, I didn't know what was going on inside of me. I was doing a lot whilst coping with fibroids, which I didn't know I had. So physically there was something wrong, you know, internally. But that was a big wake-up call.

55:00Really? That was a wake-up. I remember it so clearly, walking on stage, starting, I Will Always Love You, of all the songs, big where you need all the breath in the world, starting the song and feeling peculiar, feeling this weird tingle in my fingers and in my toes and thinking, I feel weird. And then it intensified as I'm singing. and then I don't really remember the rest but I've since seen a video and it didn't look good at all. Yeah, I mean, I was stood maybe three metres from you and the conductor came down and caught you and it was like, oh my God, it's Beverly. But the thing that I couldn't believe was, so this all happened and we were like worried, it's Beverly okay, you came back out and you sang.

55:54Yeah, the minute I felt okay. You were back out there. Yeah, the minute the God bless St John's ambulance and everyone put my poor husband was in pieces he was so worried but the minute it kind of passed and I thought you see this pressure we talked about pressure earlier in my head the narrative was I could see the papers I could see the media saying Bev collapsed and that would be it it that would be the story but if I I knew if I went back out and sang it would be yes she collapsed but she was fine and she went on and sang the end and that was what was playing in my head how mad is that that that was a factor that kind of got me to go back on stage it was only when I saw physically that I had this kind of distended lower, you know, by my stomach.

56:56It was all sticking out. And I thought something's not right. And then I went and got myself checked over and they were like, you have huge fibroids and they are playing havoc with your blood pressure. We're going to have to put you on tablets. That was like the biggest slap in the face for me because I'd always thought of myself as being healthy, clean, you know. And I thought, I've got to stop. I've got no choice now. My womb was so kind of disfigured because of these fibroids that it couldn't be saved. It had to go. I had to have a hysterectomy. There was no other option. And that meant I had to stop.

57:41That meant I had to heal. That meant I had to recover. I couldn't even cough, let alone hold a note. the biggest wake-up call of my life that was and I went home went back to Wolverhampton James was busy working he said you need your mum I went back home had the the hysterectomy went home to recover stayed in bed had to have help to get out of bed I've never been that helpless in my life The fact that I couldn't hold a note was terrifying because I just didn't have the muscle support. There was nothing, nothing there. And it was just time. I had to trust the process and and heal. But from that point onwards, I was like, never again will I just keep going, keep being the soldier, keep, you know, my body told me that day, Bev, you need to sort yourself out.

58:44and I look back at me collapsing and thinking, thank you, body, you gave me a major red flag and I had no choice but to listen and to adhere to, you know, what my body was telling me to do, which was get help, seek help now. Because if I hadn't collapsed, I'd have just carried on. God knows what would have happened. Maybe I'd have had a stroke. I mean, the recovery for that is complicated because not only does it have very physical and practical implications, but you've got to have, I'm imagining, a hell of a lot of self-compassion to get through that. When you can't sing, you can't do the thing you love, you can't speed up the recovery, you can't race through it.

59:31You have to have such self-compassion to go, this is okay. I am okay. I am safe. It's going to be okay. because you can't rush it. There was no rushing. There was no... I was going to go on tour in the June. I had to have the hysterectomy in the June. So, of course, the tour got shelved, moved it to much later on in the year. So in my head, I had something to look forward to, but I had to allow myself all that time to recover and not think about, oh, but what if something comes in? Oh, but what if this job? Oh, but what if... I had to stop, just had to stop. And a lot of things kind of got put into perspective for me.

1:00:23I watched from my bed the whole thing that happened with Grenfell. That happened while I was in bed, just turned on the TV, shock of my life, and I thought to myself, Bev, you are still here. You're in your own bedroom, in your own bed, you know, your mum's downstairs making you a cup of tea. You are fine. You have nothing to worry about and park your first world problems nonsense. These people have lost their homes. Some people lost their lives. Perspective, you know, and I felt as though during my recovery, I just was, whether it be via the news or whatever, but just life lessons that maybe I needed to learn.

1:01:13And you have to stop to see them and hear them, don't you? Exactly. And it's the hardest thing, yeah. Theatre has become this really beautiful part of your career. You won an Olivier for being in Sylvia, which was just an amazing moment. I watched that speech when you were stood on stage and it was obviously a real moment for you to see what you'd achieved in that new part of your career. How did that feel? That was unreal. I would, I'll be honest, I couldn't believe that I'd been nominated again. I was like, I've come from the world of music. Yes, I had theatre in my past, but it was amateur, you know?

1:01:56I didn't go to a, as I said before, I didn't go to one of these great schools. I didn't go to a stage school at all. so for me to cross over from music and go into theatre at a professional capacity was a was a big deal and a leap but I was determined to to to do my best so to be nominated for the third time was a joy in itself but I was fully expecting to hear somebody else's name so I had that you know the game face yeah yeah this is my this is my face for what I've lost I'm smiling and I'm happy You're the other person. I am. I'm happy. But you didn't have to do that because you won it. When my name was called, when Tim Minchin called my name, I was like, no, no way.

1:02:42I was so, so thrilled. And just, I felt as though this was an industry that had embraced the work, you know. It wasn't just, oh, we like Bev. She's really nice. Let's give her a gong. because that industry is not that way. They're not that way. The skill set's got to be there. You've got to have the skill set. And so for them to say, you know, the Society of London Theatre, all these people who vote, to say Bev's got the skill set, she really has, and it's to this standard, was such a joy and I was chuffed to absolute bits. I bet also with that particular show, because I know that that show was a very unique and special theatre performance that really got you.

1:03:32You really felt that was the part for you and it was a brilliant show. And actually, you've seen over the years that being on stage, seeing this amazing change in different age groups, different backgrounds, people coming to theatre that 50 years ago would never have set foot in a theatre. Absolutely right. That's a really beautiful thing that's changing. Yeah, and I felt like the show Sylvia, beautifully illustrated that change in theatre and theatrical audiences and where theatre is going. You know, it was a colourblind cast. I'm playing Emmeline Pankhurst, who I do not resemble at all. The thing that we had in common is our age, you know, and obviously being British.

1:04:21But just to play such a British hero, a woman who championed women's rights in such a formidable way, a woman who was controversial in the way and the methods that she chose to do that, controversial to this very day. it was big shoes to step into. And so to win an award or to win an accolade doing that just felt so satisfying. But also being part of a show which for me is definitely pointing the way towards future theatre, kind of bringing in elements of soul music, of funk and R &B and not just kind of traditional theatre. And then seeing audiences respond to that and audiences changing because of that, making theatre much more accessible and broader.

1:05:25That is so special. And knowing that in my small way that I was a part of that change and inspiring new performers as well, you know, who maybe wouldn't have even thought of auditioning for a role like Emmeline or like Sylvia or, you know, those kind of roles which traditionally would have gone to someone who at least looked like the character. That is, is, ah, I mean, that's, I feel as though I'm providing a platform for others now who are coming through to then stand upon. and that's so positive because that's what that's what we're supposed to do you know that's meant to be that's how it's supposed to work you hand the baton forward always and and I love being a part of a community that is inspiring and forward thinking so going forward bearing in mind you've got a busy summer bearing in mind you've got this big tour celebrating your birthday later on in the year can you approach that with that in mind knowing that your health has to be a priority if you had asked me that 10 years ago I'd have been like ah be fine breeze through it yeah fine fine now I'm thinking of all those things that are coming up in the year and thinking okay I need to make sure I've put in a break for me before the touring schedule kicks in I need to take time because I want to rest recuperate and not go into something like a tour schedule you know tired happy but tired from you know a summer of of of promo and doing various gigs and that's supporting, you know, new music and that.

1:07:24So I'm mindful of that. I really, really am. It's a new thing for me. And it's such a positive thing. And I used to be, it sounds so stupid now when I think about it, I used to be proud of the fact that, oh, I haven't had holiday for ages, you know. We all do this. Because I don't need a holiday because I love my job. Yeah. you still need a holiday yeah you still need to stop and a holiday doesn't necessarily mean you know lie on the beaches of Jamaica that would be wonderful but just a holiday from work a holiday from my brain that period of stopping and reflecting and you know that that whole thing of being mindful and wellness and that is playing such a huge role in my life at this part of my life and thank god i mean i'm learning this lesson you know in my in my middle age but thank god i'm learning it yeah i had to learn it but it's amazing and it and it just shows you if you give yourself the time to stop and to have self-compassion to have these little mini breaks from your head whatever you can still do loads achieve so much probably more because you are more capable and physically well to do so.

1:08:44It's a really good lesson for all of us because I think often we push ourselves, we burn the candle and we reach burnout and we get super stressed and it's not good for our mental or physical health. It's right, it's right. And I would, and I know there are men listening to this. I know you men are out there. Yes, more men, we need you. Honestly, I see that with men increasingly. They feel as though they have to just keep going, just keep going, you know, achievement, success, you've reached this part of the ladder, okay, and now you've got to scramble up to the next bit. And they suffer in often in silence and don't want to say anything.

1:09:23And the stress, the burnout, the expectations that men put on themselves and that you know the societal expectations as well yeah and it's it's too much and some men sadly you know succumb to the to the pressure and take their own lives and we have to as a society and and men you know amongst themselves have to take time to to to stop you know I really feel we as women will talk about these things we're happy this podcast we're talking about it, we love to talk about it, we will at least share, but men aren't doing that, they're not doing that and that's why the rates of suicide are so high so important that men will willingly talk and feel that safety to talk and share the burden and know that they don't have to be Superman every hour of every day.

1:10:36Yeah, and just to see, you know, I think we still see a happy place that well-being is more freely imbibed by women than men because men feel like, oh, that's not really for me. And it is, this conversation, all these conversations, all of the practices, everything's for everyone. You know, if you want to feel better, here's some ideas or have a discussion, whatever it might be. It's of paramount importance. And I think, you know, it's certainly a driving force behind me wanting to have these very chats that I love so dearly. And it's been a joy catching up with you today and having the time to sit and hear your thoughts.

1:11:14And I've really enjoyed hearing your thoughts about sense of self, but also not rushing things. I think it's so important in this day and age that we really stop and think about the process rather than this end goal all the time. It's so, so important. And I wish you so much love and luck with your tour and with the rest of your year. And I know we're going back into theatre again. So good luck with all of it. It's just been so lovely talking to you. Thank you. It's been great, great speaking to you as well and catching up as well. I know. Lovely. Thanks, Beverly. Thank you. I told you, joyous.

1:11:55Oh, Beverly, Beverly, Beverly, I love you. I cannot thank you enough for that wholesome, gorgeous chat. I'm going to think about it for weeks. And I really hope that you do get that downtime before you launch into that tour, Beverly. You need it. You need that rest. Speaking of, this will be Beverly's biggest ever UK tour to date. So you're going to want to be there. It's already nearly sold out. So get your tickets quick. There are 20 very special headline dates across the UK throughout October and November. I wonder if you feel you're instinctively getting more comfortable in your own skin as you get older too.

1:12:38Always love carrying on these conversations over on Instagram. So head to at happy place official if you want to join in the chat. All right, next week. Of course, we're going to be back. But until then, another huge thanks to Brilliant Beverly, to the producer Anushka Tate at Rethink Audio, and to you. You are bloody fab.

1:13:20Thank you.