Billy Porter

0:00Just a note before we start, this episode contains language some listeners might find difficult to hear. So check the show notes for details. Hello, I'm Fern Cotton and this is Happy Place, the show that celebrates every facet of what makes you, you. Today, I'm chatting to Billy Porter. I know that what I'm doing and the work that I'm doing is necessary, particularly right now being black and queer with a platform to speak truth to power. and when I was growing up there was a thing called protest music that you know I haven't seen a whole lot of this time around the regressive sun you know we win love always wins and all of that and as artists I feel like it's our responsibility to um get in these conversation.

0:56Billy began his stage and screen career in the 90s but it's only more recently that his profile has gone absolutely stratospheric. He's released a brand new single called Broker Sweat and it was really eye-opening to hear in this chat how different his experience of making music this time round has been compared to when he started 30 years ago. I spoke to Billy while he was in New York just last week and we talked about why he feels artists have a real political obligation to speak out if they can. Art can be such a powerful medium for all of us when we really feel we have something to say. I also wanted to hear in his own words why he feels clothes are so empowering because my God, his clothes are epic.

1:41I think you're absolutely going to love this chat. We'll get to Billy in a moment, but first a massive thank you to everyone who came to the Happy Place Festival at the weekend and earlier on in the summer at our first event. You lot were amazing. I love you all. I can't believe we've done it. If you want to connect with our festival experts and also prioritise your wellbeing all year round, don't miss our Happy Place app summer offer. Sign up today for 40 % off a whole 12 months of unlimited access to the Happy Place app. That's just£29.99 for a whole year and the offer ends this Sunday the 10th of September.

2:20All right then, here's the show.

2:45hey Billy good morning it's morning for me it's not morning for you how are you yeah where are you? I'm in New York today. I was in LA over the weekend and I'm back in New York City. I just missed you because you were in the UK and I would have loved to have seen you in the flesh. I was, I was, I'll be back to the UK and you'll see me in the flesh when I come. How was your London trip? You, you like the UK, right? I do. I really liked the UK. I like, my trip was amazing. You know, Baby Was a Dancer, one of my singles went number one on BBC Two Radio, which I'm told is like the biggest pop station in Europe, which is amazing.

3:30for, you know, a man of a certain age who is really defying the odds and, you know, really thriving and succeeding in spaces that are generally reserved for children. You know, generally people enter the music industry as children and then they grow into legacy artists. I have lived a full career and life and I'm sort of entering the market, reentering the market as an adult. And so my trip over there was really beautiful because I was able to see people face to face, talk to people face to face, really get in the space with people, you know, so that you all understand who I am. I think one of the greatest parts about being a recording artist is that it's you, it's me.

4:26You know, I'm also an actor, so I play characters and people fall in love with characters that aren't actually me, you know. And so it's been amazing. I just did a 25 city tour back in May and it was amazing to be back in front of audiences as myself and to really be able to speak from who I am and where I am and what I believe in and all of that stuff. So, yeah, I love London. I'll be there. Yeah, well, I think everyone in the UK loves you. We absolutely loved you being here, and it's great that you've got new music and your new album coming out. And it is so interesting. There's two things I want to talk about here.

5:08I think the first is, yes, we all know the music industry is incredibly young. It seems to be getting younger by the year. You know, we have got sort of kids releasing records. And I think the message that that puts out across the board, whatever career you're in, is that that's where your peak is. Your peak is when you are, you know, teens, 20s. And actually, you're totally disproving that one and saying, no, you can do whatever you want, whenever you want. And we need to hear that message more. Yeah. And we need to see it more often. And so therefore, the gatekeepers have to be more open to when it's necessary.

5:49You know, I know that what I'm doing and the work that I'm doing is necessary on all fronts, particularly right now being Black and queer and out and at the forefront with a voice, with a platform to speak truth to power. were there again. We're there again. And when I was growing up, there was a thing called protest music that, you know, I haven't seen a whole lot of this time around. This time around the regressive sun. This time around the conservative taking over, you know, trying to take over everything. You know, because the world, it's been, it's in a circle, a circle of life. So like, you know, it's always going to come back around.

6:39You know, we win. Love always wins and all of that. And as artists, I feel like it's our responsibility to get in these conversations and make a difference. And if Toni Morrison speaks of it, I'm paraphrasing, but she says something like, this is the time when artists go to work. There's no room for shame, no need for fear. We write, we speak, we do language. This is how civilizations heal. I take my art and my purpose and my calling, dare I say my ministry, because I do dare, very seriously, you know. And it's really, really important to me that I show up in the way that I do. Yeah. And I'm imagining that feels well.

7:28It's obviously taken years and years of extreme hard graft to get to that place where you're able to show up as you and to be celebrated in that way. And it's a beautiful thing. But when you look back to your first batch of music in the 90s where, you know, you've talked about you had to show up as straight and you were very good at pretending to be straight at the time. Looking back at that era, how do you feel? I am really happy that it didn't happen for me at that time. Because had it exploded in the way that I thought it should have, was talented enough for it to, felt entitled to, you know, whatever.

8:11The fact that it didn't happen forced me, and it didn't just not happen. It imploded. You know, it was really emotionally violent for me, the end of that first deal. And I am grateful that because it forced me to go deeper, it forced me to challenge myself creatively in ways that had it happened quickly for me on all fronts. I don't know that I would have ever been challenged to find my truth. I don't know that I would have ever been forced to find the real me and lead with that. I don't know that I would have because I would not have had to. You know what I mean? Yeah, timing is key, isn't it?

9:09We have to trust the process and it's often terrifying to do that. Terrifying. I'm really interested in getting to this place where you're able to really feel that you're being authentically you. Because we hear this thrown about all the time at the moment, like be authentically you. And a lot of us will go, how? I don't know who the hell I am. You know, how how did you start to peel back those layers? How did you know you were moving in the right direction to liberate yourself, to be truly you? Well, that's a really interesting question. And it has different answers. First of all, I always knew that I was gay.

9:54And I was told under no uncertain terms, no uncertain terms, that from haters and allies alike, that my queerness would be my liability. so I was already fighting that before I could even really comprehend what that meant I was already labeled a faggot at age eight you know before I even knew like I it was like I don't and before before the people who were labeling me even knew what it meant you know what I mean like we had language before we even knew what things meant sometimes and then vice versa most of the time. But this gay thing, this queer thing, this faggot thing was always at the forefront of everybody's lips.

10:42So to have that and then to have this extreme talent, my singing voice at that time that everybody responded to. And it was as if, it was like magical. When I sang, the venom and the hatred over my sexuality went away. So it was confusing while simultaneously empowering. It was like I was empowered to dive deep into this creative space in order to protect myself, protect my life, protect my life. Like I had to protect myself. So my voice became my armour. My voice became my weapon to fight back. My art became those things. Well, do you know what? I think it's so interesting that, you know, you were quite literally sort of singing to survive, which creates a lot of confusion when you've got this gift and you know that you can sing and it's inherently there and it's yours.

11:58But it's not all pure joy just singing. You're singing for survival. So that's really complicated. It's not just something that you can leap into joyfully. Like, I can sing and it feels amazing. There's also, as you say, this armor you're having to put on. Did that create a lot of confusion around what that gift was? Why you had it? Did you resent having to have that voice and to sing? I've never, no. No, that's an unequivocal no. because my voice saved me. The response to the voice was always positive until my record deal. It was always positive. People didn't always necessarily know what to do with me, you know, in the theater, which is where I was mostly navigating at that time.

12:47You know, they weren't, they didn't know what to do with me, but there was a gift that could not be denied ultimately it could not be denied and ultimately I understand that and knew that um and played that to my to my best ability yeah so I was listening to you doing an interview I don't know how long ago it was now but you were talking about your 30s being challenging because that was a point where you decided you wanted to show up to auditions or to jobs as you and to stop suppressing your sexuality or trying to be something that you weren't. And that was a challenging period because the work seemingly dried up at that time.

13:32How did you navigate that and keep your self-worth intact? Well, I did a lot of therapy. I did a lot of mindfulness, you know, work. The Artist's Way by Julia Cameron is a book that I swear by. One Day My Soul Opened Up by Ayala Van Sant. Lots of Oprah episodes. I mean, it was the Oprah episode. It was one particular Oprah episode where she was, it was she and Maya Angelou and Elania advanced and they were talking about service. And the idea was, you know, the theory was when we shift our intention from ego to service, then everything will work itself out. And I was like, well, what does service look like for me in an industry and quite frankly, a world that is inherently narcissistic?

14:36Like, what does that look like? And it hit me like a ton of bricks. It's your queerness. It's that thing that everybody is telling you is wrong. And it's that thing that feels really wrong today. I know the universe, I'm talking as the universe right now to myself. I know the universe said to me that it looks like there's nothing for you if you choose this road. Choose it anyway. Trust me and choose it anyway. And that was in my early 30s. That was when, you know, my record label, DV8 Records, produced my hit song from the First Wife Club for Celine Dion. And I left, you know, I left the label.

15:23I said I didn't come here to be a demo singer. No shade to Celine Dion. She sounds great on the song, but that's my song. And y 'all have turned me into a demo singer for Celine Dion. So we're done. And I moved to Los Angeles and I went into my, what I call my Valley period, you know, because I was doing two things at the same time. I was walking away from the theater as I had known it, because all they would cast me in were, you know, roles in musical reviews, you know, where I'd come out and sing the roof off the joint and no character, no humanity, no dimension, no nothing. So I was over that.

16:10And then the record deal imploded at the same time for various reasons. The Celine Dion thing was the straw that broke the camel's back, but I knew that I had to extract myself from these things that were not serving. These spaces weren't serving me. And I didn't know if they ever would. And I knew that I was going to have to create my own space. I didn't know what that looked like, but I knew that I needed flip a change to be able to just like jolt myself into doing something different. I'm kind of in that space again right now. Yeah, sometimes, well, sometimes whether we like it or not, we have to jump into the void.

16:53And again, I guess it goes back to that thing of like trusting, trusting the timing, trusting that things even when they feel like they're kind of going off track are going in a new direction. But you had, I don't know if it was exactly the same time, but around this time, you also lost your voice to acid reflux. Now, hearing you already talk about the fact that your voice was your armor, you were singing for survival. To lose that gift must have been utterly terrifying. It was terrifying and inspiring, motivating at the same time because I had been, I'm a manifester. I believe in manifestation.

17:35So I had been speaking my specific desire into the universe, which was I am more than my voice, actually. It's not just about my voice. I'm more than my voice. However, I was too afraid to step out on faith without leading with my singing voice first, without leading with that. I was too afraid to not lead with that. So it had to go away. so I would be forced to not leave with that be careful what you wish for be careful what you ask for I asked to be seen as more than my voice so I had to do the work that was required to achieve that distinction did you also feel that there was some sort of emotional resonance you know not just there being a physical problem but could you sense that your voice disappeared because there was something that you needed to say or you wanted to say or you couldn't say.

18:35All of those things, all of those things. It was like, when you come out of this, who are you going to be? Are you still going to be trying to please everybody? Are you still going to be trying to be something that you're not so you can, what, be famous? okay once again that's all ego and as an artist as a real artist I've had to navigate that space a lot and discern what is ego versus what is calling and how to choose the latter and to um snatch that ego shit back yeah you know yeah it's the is the trickier but much more interesting routes because as you said at the start of the chat you know the this world that we move in with whether it's you know music or the stuff that I do it can be incredibly narcissistic so to choose the route of service or calling is a much tougher route going down the ego route it's easy we can all go and call fame and the sort of superficial elements of it easily enough because the framework's there but to go down the other route that's a longer harder road to take but I guess once you know there's no other option well yeah there's no other option and for me it was the only way because my purpose here is something different on this earth right My purpose is different.

20:16When you are successful in show business, sometimes, particularly in front of a camera, the performing talent, sometimes the byproduct of that is some sort of celebrity, some sort of thing. that that's a byproduct. And what I'm grateful for is that I learned early on that's not the reason why you do what we do. Sometimes it's a byproduct, but I'm going to be doing it anyway. Whether that celebrity and that fame and that money set for life kind of situation comes or not, I'm going to be doing this, whatever this is, anyway. You know, that's a real artist. Yeah. And it's led you to do some incredibly interesting projects.

21:02And obviously you've gone on to have just the most sensationally diverse career, dynamic career. There's so many different moving parts to what you do. And during. yeah thank you it's a beautiful thing but you know during that period I'm guessing which was challenging to then move into this this era where you're doing these incredible musical theater roles obviously you're now you have a new album coming out but also some seriously interesting tv work I find it very interesting because as an actor you have to go through these motions and you have to draw on emotion which can be incredibly painful and hard to relive things or even reenact things that feel slightly familiar how has that helped you heal has that helped you get to a better cognitive place with the things that you've experienced um the short answer is yes you know I feel like kinky boots was healing for me because you know the character of Lola forgives her father and I had to forgive both my fathers.

22:12So the act of practicing that through a role every day got me to the other side of something. You know, I was so happy that somebody was finally taking me seriously as an actor that I had no idea how triggering it was, what it was doing to my body and to my emotional space. Because as actors, the body doesn't know the difference when we put ourselves through this stuff. So, you know, I was HIV positive playing this role of a character who is HIV positive. And I hadn't told anybody. I mean, I told my sister and my closest friends, but I hadn't even told my mother, you know. And so I was going to work every day, reliving the 80s and 90s, which was nothing but trauma.

23:09I was a kid. I lost more people by the age of 21 to AIDS than my 85-year-old grandmother had. You know, we fought for our lives. I came out at 16 in 1985. We went straight to the front lines to fight for our lives. and we won. The anti-virtual viral drug came out in 96 and true to American form, the whole thing was erased. Like it didn't happen. You know, we like to act like shit doesn't happen in America. I don't know about the rest of the world. I'm only paying attention to America because this is where I'm at. I think y 'all have a few issues over there too. Come on, somebody. Brexit. Yeah.

23:50Come on, somebody. I don't think it's much better anywhere. Well, but I don't think it's much better anywhere. And it's so interesting to me that like, you know because these these these shining cities these shining cities on the hill these countries that we live in managed to like it's like oh we're so powerful and we're so great but america's built on slavery and y 'all are the first colonizers y 'all are the the colonizers yep of the world y 'all stole everything yep and you're just it's like as you get older and this And this relates to my art, because as I've gotten older, there is no place in my space for lies at all.

24:35I'm telling the truth everywhere I go, every single time, every moment. And I don't care anymore what that makes people on the outside feel. I'm not trying to make you feel comfortable. The world is uncomfortable. So we all feel uncomfortable. You know, it's powerful to be an artist. Yeah. It's a really powerful thing. And I feel honored and humbled every day, you know. Yeah, it's truly powerful. And going back to that notion of service, it's helpful. It's helping other people. Rather than, again, showing up because of ego or you want a round of applause, You're showing up because you want to help people.

25:24Trauma. You know, I wrote a book. I wrote a memoir called Unprotected. It's about using art to heal trauma. I'm still in the healing process of all of it. You know, some days I'm great. Some days I'm not at all. And that is the process. And that is the journey. And I'm learning to love the journey. Yeah. Yeah, that's all we can do because there might not ever be an end goal where any of us feel truly healed, truly OK, truly, you know, imbalanced forever. It's, you know, all we've got is the journey. That's all we've got. I'm really interested in what is the difference between acting something out and being triggered detrimentally versus being triggered or having that exposure to a memory and it being healing?

26:20It must be a very fine line. It's a very fine line. And I discovered that fine line through specific trauma therapy. So when COVID happened, I went into trauma therapy with a specialist and we started doing this thing called prolonged exposure. There's EMDR and there's prolonged exposure. I don't know what EMDR is because that was something at the beginning of the pandemic that needed to be done in person and we couldn't do it in person. I think they've now figured out a way to do it online, EMDR, but I did prolonged exposure. And prolonged exposure is essentially taking what your index trauma is, speaking it into a recorder, and then listening it back to it in between sessions and monitoring your SUDS levels.

27:13SUDS, the acronym meaning Subjective Units of Distress, aka anxiety. And so the idea is that you, you know, change the neuro pathways of your brain to understand that it can't, the thing can't hurt you anymore. And what my therapist discovered was that in my work, I was trying to do that the whole time. That's why I was trying to find work that mattered. And not just the teen angel in Greece. And not just, you know, Smokey Joe's Cafe. and not just, you know, not just like random frivolous stuff, but like give me, you know, I saw Angels in America, Tony Kushner's Angels in America by myself, 1994, the character of Belize.

27:56You know, it was the first time I saw a human being, a queer Black man reflected back at myself. Jeffrey Wright played it so beautifully. So I always understood that my art was healing. I mean if you if you end up in a theatre role or a tv role film role down the line whatever it is and you know that the subject matter could be triggering knowing what you do now about exposure therapy and trauma therapy what would you have in place to ensure that you could move through that role as peacefully as possible probably double therapy a week probably double trauma therapy a week yeah that the producers pay for of course too bloody right too bloody right you're giving them your heart and your soul that's the least they can do yeah it's a big deal it's a big deal to go through it and is is therapy something that you still regularly do whether you're working on something triggering yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah always yeah yeah yeah always i'm trying to stay sane in this crazy ass world yeah i gotta go talk to somebody about it baby same i hear you say i i find the trauma therapy aspect of things so interesting i've talked to countless people who have tried all different modalities and different things work for different people but it is so wonderful that the brain has that neuroplasticity to create new pathways to change how we react to things around us I've done EMDR I actually did do it online during the pandemic and I found it you did so they did found out how to do game changing yeah do you have the tappers and stuff I do you know what there was either you could do the eyes across the screen which I couldn't get on with I even I hate zoom altogether but so that was too hectic so I did this bilateral tapping and well I don't know how it works or what's going on but oh my god it is absolutely incredible and it's you know I'm always relatively frustrated I think working in this space and talking about mental health a lot that you know I've been very lucky that I've been able to access that you know you've been able to find a brilliant therapist out there but there's so many people who have had such awful trauma who don't have that And we need to, I don't know, I don't know what the answer is, but it needs to be more readily available.

30:25And that's down to politics and healthcare systems and all sorts of shit that's out of our control. But it is game-changing. It's game-changing stuff. We even did an episode on here the other day, right, on psychedelic therapy for trauma. Incredible results. Incredible results. I'm so intrigued. Ketamine. Yeah. They're using ketamine right now. um and and you know as a club kid I'm just gonna make myself please do yeah you do it it's morning um you know as a club kid in the 90s and you know I partook in recreational drugs and my favorite was Kevin and I was like and now and now it's and it's like oh all right that kind of makes sense a bunch of my friends are doing like ayahuasca all that stuff i don't know i'm thinking about you know some of their stories are not the greatest yeah i don't hear the greatest stories makes me a little nervous about the the throwing up and the purging and all of that but i guess you know we'll see yeah I'm trying to just be as healed as possible the ayahuasca one for me I think sounds too intense but I think psilocybin maybe some of the other slightly more gentle ones could be extremely interesting hey I also wanted to talk about a recent Instagram post of yours that I absolutely loved where you're with your stylist Ty and you were questioning why people say I could never pull that off and you were saying you just put it on that's how you pull it off and that has so stuck with me and it not only inspired me on that day that I watched it but I also did my own little Instagram post inspired by yours very much referencing you I did not steal it very much gave you the due credit no no I gave you the due credit because it was it was a day where you know we all have these days where we feel a bit shy we want to hide a bit and I had this dress and I bought it in a market and it was kind of pleated green sheer.

32:39And I knew that you'd be able to see like my hot pants and bra. But I was like, oh, I don't know whether I should wear it. And then I watched your video and was like, I'm wearing it. And I wore it out and I felt fantastic all night. I loved wearing it. And I put a picture of me in the dress and all my lovely followers were, again, like thanking you going, oh my God, I've got this wedding coming up. I'm going to wear that bloody hat. I didn't feel brave enough to wear. I was going to wear that or whatever. And it's like, wow, so many of us, I think, feel so stuck in a rut with how if we give ourselves permission to express and to have fun, fun with clothing, that feels like something that we miss.

33:17It's a taking up space, you know, because we live in a world where the power structure is meant to silence anything that doesn't fit into the status quo. You know, there are mechanisms in place, conscious or unconscious, that stifle, keep us in chains. You know, little things that are not even like, I mean, I hate the word microaggression, but like they're micro things because we don't, they seem just normal. Like, you know, like the politicization of something. Oh, you've politicized it. Well, of course I have. Everything is political. What are you talking about? What you're saying is shut up.

34:12That's what you're saying. When the GOP over here comes out against Lizzo because she went to the South and dared to call out Ron DeSantis or something, or the don't say gay bill, or drag queens are illegal, or whatever, she dared to say something from her concert tour, then they're telling her that she's politicizing it. Yes! you're trying to take my rights away yes i am what you're saying is shut up it's the same thing in the creative space too when i'm working when i'm writing something oh it's too preachy fuck that yeah it is yes it is on purpose what do you think it's gonna be we are in this world is crazy.

35:00Somebody needs to be preaching about something. Yeah. I'm not going to stay here silent. You're not going to shut me up because that's what it means. You know, and we have to be careful with that. We have to be careful. Our governments are this patriarchy. It's like, oh, shut up and sing. This shut up and sing. This shut up and dance. This shut up and dribble. This, oh, you're a prostitute. So your opinion doesn't matter. Bullshit. I'm not having any of that. Oh, I almost made it through an entire podcast without being politically extra. Then you just, right at the end, you're like, this bitch is not, she's not screaming yet.

35:42I got it. I love it. I love it. Look, this is your time and space. You say what you want. You can screech and preach and do the whole thing. I don't care. I love it. It's great. But it's passion. It's passion. And as you say, you know, clothing, clothing can be very political and clothing is about taking up space. And I think the majority of people, you know, not even in the public eye, I'm talking about the majority of people feel small. They don't feel heard. They don't feel seen. And they are scared to say what they think. And that's why I like what you're doing, because you're championing those that will stand up and say what they want to say or will do things differently.

36:25And, but, you know, it's all very well and good. You saying stuff and being a game changer. It's a beautiful thing, but it's tiring. It's a tiring thing because I, I even, you know, was, I was looking back at pictures of you over the years and like, obviously that beautiful moment of you turning up to the Oscars in, was it 2019 in your tuxedo gown? And that was where I think the red carpet for men started to get a bit interesting because before that it was entirely boring like oh I don't even want to look it's just all the blokes in suits and then it's it's now a lot more interesting and that is yeah a great feeling for you you're a game changer you set a new precedent you set a new standard yet very very tiring to get to the place of being able to do so because you've had to go through being unaccepted being denied the right onto the red carpet to wear the dress so it's all wonderful to have that feeling but it's a hell of a lot of work to get there it's a hell of a lot of work to get there and it's a hell of a lot of work to maintain yeah what I think people don't understand is that that to be the fabulous thing that you see me being costs money it costs a lot of money to do that and oftentimes I have to pay for that shit myself you know and ultimately it's about me not reinvesting into the company.

37:53I'm the company. I'm the brand. I think we've had, we've covered a lot of subjects. We've covered a lot of ground. It's been a joy to talk to you. An absolute joy. It's been a joy to talk to you too, because I just have to say, it's really nice to speak to people who actually do the research to understand me and have real conversations with me. You know, because the conversation that I've started is, see, it just falls out. I don't do anything. It just falls out. You know, because the conversation I'm having is fabulous and serious do coexist. Yes. Yes. And we live in a world where that's not, it's not seen like that.

38:41So I appreciate you. Well, I appreciate you. Nothing's two-dimensional, is it? There's no one person that is just fabulous or is just serious or is just sexy or is just whatever. Like, everyone's got all these different layers to them. And that's probably the most interesting thing about my job is I get to explore that. But honestly, it's been so lovely. And thank you so much for being on the podcast. And I hope I get to see you in real life at some point. Yeah, I'm coming over there, child. I got to be over there. Yes. I'm coming.

39:15I'm absolutely obsessed that he got up and made himself a little cuppa in the middle of that chat. That's what we like, just keeping it real. We were, after all, in Billy's house, so he does what he wants. We want everyone to feel at home on Happy Place. I'm so glad that Billy did. And Billy, I just loved that chat so much. I loved spending time with Billy. We covered some really difficult stuff. And it also just felt very inspiring, actually. Billy thank you so much for your time Billy's single Break a Sweat is out right now and if you love that song you will absolutely adore his album to come which is called The Black Mona Lisa we mentioned psychedelics being used as part of trauma therapy if you want to learn more about that then please do listen to a recent episode we did with Professor David Nutt it was a mind-blowing conversation and one that I still think about all the time I think you'll really enjoy it I'll be back next week, so do click the follow button so you're always notified when a brand new episode is available if you haven't already.

40:18Until then, huge, huge thanks to the gorgeous Billy, to the producers of this episode, Anushka Tate and Sophie King at Rethink Audio, and to you, because you are the bloody greatest.

40:40Thank you.