Blame achieves nothing! How to forgive yourself and others, with Charlie Mackesy

0:00Hello and welcome to Happy Place with me Fern Cotton. This is the show that helps us understand each other better. Today, I'm chatting to Charlie Mackesy. You know, I'm a great one for looking to blame, whether it's me or someone else. But I think in the end, blame doesn't really achieve a great deal. I've learned. At some point, you have to let it go, either yourself, forgive yourself or others and walk free of things. I think it's very important if bad things have been done to say them. But in the end, once you've processed all that, to let it go means that you're not continually drinking from the same cup of toxin that only damages yourself.

0:41How are you, gang? I hope you're all well and happy. This is a really thoughtful, beautiful chat you're about to hear, so do stick around. I needed this chat. This is the good thing about doing this podcast is sometimes I turn up in a shitty mood or I'm just really discombobulated, stressed out. And then I have a chat and my whole mindset changes. And, you know, that's what I hope for you lot that listen to. I turned up today slightly flustered. All sorts of, you know, the usual stuff. My son's lost his football boots and he's got a football match today. You know, all the usual sort of stresses.

1:16I also had an epic fail at the weekend where it was my daughter's 10th birthday and I had ordered a bouncy castle helter-skelter, which I saw online and got quite excited about. I hadn't measured it and it wouldn't fit through the house. So I had to have this fucking massive inflatable helter-skelter erected on my driveway. I mean, it filled every millimetre of it. I had people stopping outside the house. I mean, it was ludicrous. But luckily, we turned what was going to be a nightmare of, oh, my God, we haven't got a bouncy castle into this is so much more fun. It's on the drive. But I'm going through all the usual ups and downs that we all are.

2:01But this chat so massively helped me. I've literally just finished the chat like five minutes ago. So I'm still buzzing from chatting to our wonderful, wonderful guest. So let's get to him. Charlie Mackesy is the incredible illustrator and author behind the record-breaking book The Boy, The Mole, The Fox and The Horse. And now there's a sequel. It's called Always Remember, The Boy, The Mole, The Fox, The Horse and The Storm. I have been a massive fan of Charlie's for I don't know how long, but probably as long as you lot have. I've followed him on Instagram for a while now and just have loved seeing his drawings, whether on Instagram or in book form.

2:40I buy his book for everybody it's just the most comforting moving evocative book I think how he not only manages to capture so much emotion in his drawings there's some magic that he creates I don't know how he does it but also the words he chooses to accompany the pictures they get you amount of times I've like opened a one of his books either the new one or his initial book and just welled up immediately. He is just so clever. So we talk about a lot in this chat. We talk about bringing out people's humanity because he'd had quite an extraordinary train journey into the studio today. We talk about how to stop blaming yourself and others, just sort of blame not being helpful at all.

3:28We also did a really nice deep dive on shame. It's a subject that I'm fascinated about and sort of want to talk about a bit more, but it feels really scary. So that felt like a good time to do that today. So yeah, we have a really good chat about shame. But still, I'm sat here now thinking, oh God, there were like five more things that I forgot to mention because we went off on all these different tangents and different people that I wanted to talk to him about, different artists. And there's so much in this chat that I think you'll really, really love. Hey friends, it's Nicaela from the podcast Side Hustle Pro.

4:05I'm always looking for ways to keep my kids entertained without screens. And the Yoto Mini has been a total lifesaver. My kids are obsessed. Yoto is a screen-free audio player where kids just pop in a card and listen. Hours of stories, music, podcasts, and more, and no screens or ads. With hundreds of options for ages zero to 12, it's the perfect gift they'll go back to again and again. Check it out at yotoplay.com. Y-O-T-O-P-L-A-Y.com.

4:44From building timelines to assigning the right people and even spotting risks across dozens of projects, Monday Sidekick knows your business, things ahead, and takes action. One click on the star and consider it done.

4:59Try Monday Sidekick, AI you'll love to use, on Monday.com. If you're a smoker or vapor ready to make a change, you really only need one good reason. But with Zinn Nicotine Pouches, you'll discover many good reasons. Zinn is America's number one nicotine pouch brand. Plus, Zinn offers a robust rewards program. There are lots of options when it comes to nicotine satisfaction. But there's only one Zinn. Check out Zinn.com slash find to find Zinn at a store near you. Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical.

5:37okay here we go this is the show

6:01Charlie, I'm so happy to have you on Happy Place. Thank you. You've had an eventful morning. Yeah, I have. quite a shocking morning on the train yeah it was really you want to know about it yeah so i was sitting there scribbling away and on an ipad actually and in a very silent carriage no one saying anything and um for an hour and then right at the end of the journey two ticket inspector there's a queue of people getting off two ladies ticket inspectors were sort of standing next to me and they looked down and went, oh, look at that. Look at that. And we were laughing about it. I was saying, what is it then?

6:40They said, oh, I recognize that. Do I recognize that? And then we chatted about it. It was about a drawing about friends, something, and I had the book in the bag. I said, here you go, look, this is the book. It went, oh, that's you, that's you. And then the whole carriage just kind of stopped and came around and we'd all been completely silent for an hour and suddenly, oh, it's that, and then, oh, yeah, and then I got off the train, and, you know, it was very, really lovely, and I got an immediate message from, which is on my phone, I showed you, on Facebook, from Maria, who is one of the ticket inspectors, saying, lovely to meet you.

7:18That's so nice. And I said, look, I'll bring a book for you if I'm on that, because I'm often on that train, and then I was walking across the platform, Liverpool Street Station, which is huge and quite i don't know just like cathedral like and a girl came up to me and said um are you charlie and i said yeah and she stopped and she didn't speak for a while and she was nodding she said oh i just want to say i i i had a miscarriage and everything went dark for me and i just lost purpose and but someone gave me a book and she had tears in her eyes and she said so anyway just I'd say hello and say thank you.

7:57And we stood there and it was, you know, just an ordinary morning. Suddenly became very human and very lovely and very vulnerable and honest. And people came out of themselves, you know. I mean, there's so much to say already because isn't it striking that we find any human interaction these days sort of alarming in a good way? Like, wow, we're talking to people. They were on the screen. Yeah, because everybody is cocooned in their own little world. So it is astonishing when you have a moment of connection with any human you don't know, whether it's, you know, you know, an incident could happen or something happens and you end up talking to someone on the train or it's always sort of profound and amazing.

8:39But you have this extra layer of knowing that you've really touched people's lives in a way that you possibly can't always comprehend. I can't comprehend it at all. And there are many that I haven't affected. But the ones that I meet who have been, it just blows my mind. And, you know, there I am just thinking about not much, worrying that I'm going to be late for you and bump into this person. And of course, you know, like when you make something like a book or whatever, while you're eating spaghetti or sleeping or doing nothing, it's busy doing stuff, even though you're just, you know, scratching your arms and being really ordinary.

9:15it's out there and I find that really moving that that these lives that I what saddens me most actually is when I when I made the first book that it pretty much after it came out it was the pandemic and we couldn't speak to anyone so I didn't really meet anyone for a long time yeah and then when I started to when it all opened up and I bumped into people in the street it just every time it did it choked me up because I was meeting real people not in you know Instagram I love everyone and they've been so encouraging for you but I don't meet them like they're not so when you do it's like oh wow yeah you put a face to that story so you're real yeah and it meant something and that's such a treat for me I mean it's it's remarkable but you know what you create and your your books your pictures even you know on Instagram I think that's probably how I first discovered your work was Instagram I've been following you for a long time and I love your first book we're going to get to the second book in a minute but the way you draw touches people the the words that you put to the drawings there's an alchemy there that you know not many people have managed to achieve that it's quite a niche thing to be an illustrator like if you would just say to your careers advisor i want to be a cartoonist or illustrator i'm gonna say think of plan b but you've managed it in the most exceptional way we're not only doing something with immense skill, but also you're managing to connect to other humans.

10:38And that takes, I'm not sure what kind of magic it is, but whether it's art, music, writing, it's really an amazing skill slash bit of magic that enables your work to really touch people and really open them up or get them feeling something. Are you aware that you're doing it when you're making the drawings? Like, how does that feel to do that? Well, everything you said is really lovely. I mean, I think I used to just make the drawings for friends. So it was very immediate. It wasn't, this is going to go to lots of people. It was, this is what I feel. And I would just do it without any sense of the consequence of it.

11:17I couldn't engineer them. I just thought, you know, if I have good friends and some of them really struggle and I have to lie half the time. So we often chat about existence and what keeps us going. and then and then i on whatsapp i'll do a drawing photograph and send it to them say how do you feel about this and they went oh yeah okay so for me it was more my immediate friends and instagram was very small you know as i just would post things and then read the comments and interact with them and be moved when they were moved and you know sometimes i get an email from the military in Australia asked me if they could use a drawing to help their guys who've been in some sort of scary situation to help them through something so for me if someone had said make a drawing that would help people I wouldn't know what to do really.

12:10It comes from the closest bit of me to the people close to me as honestly as I can and then if someone else is moved by it, great. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. I mean, it seems like you feel a lot. I'm a person that feels too much. Yeah, like it's almost overwhelming all the time. Whatever emotion it is, it's a lot. Is there a therapeutic notion to you doing it? Like, does it help you? Are you like, oh, and now that's out of me? Yeah, I think that's exactly right. I know when I first, I could get away with making drawings at school and that kind of stuff and could draw the teachers and do cartoons and make people laugh.

12:52But beyond that, I didn't really have a reason for it. And then, you know, for me, that big, we all have like these big sort of red line salient moments. And mine was, my best friend was killed when I was 18. And like what happened there and what is, why grief is a form of madness. and it's a it's I didn't really every day it was like something else would go on inside of me and I wouldn't know what it was and and I remember finding a drawing pen and some paper and started to scribble down things and it definitely had as you say even though I didn't know it at the time a therapeutic energy to it and it was a way of somehow making sense of my feelings or getting them out there just laying them down and I didn't at the time I wasn't normally I'm quite critical of myself but the drawings I felt I gave them some grace and just said just do whatever you know just get get it out um and then I remember sitting on the street in London I just came to London I'd been quite a rural person and um I was there because you know someone gave me a lift and I thought I'd stay for a week and stay on the floor and I remember sitting on street drawing and then with a walkman on and someone coming by and looking at it and then nodding and walking off.

14:14And I thought, that's nice. And then I remember someone else coming by with their kids a couple of days later and she looked at the drawing and then I heard her say to her kids as she was walking off, that's what will happen to you if you don't do your homework. Yeah, it was great. I loved that. Wow. So it was all this interaction going on. But now and again, I'd sell one and that's what kept me going. But as you quite rightly said, when you're at school, you know, you have all these career kind of choices. Being an artist is like, no, no, no, you don't do that. You're a lawyer, you're this or you're that or you're a doctor, you know.

14:55Which is a massive shame. It is a huge shame. I mean, I'm a massive art lover. Yeah. You know, and I don't come from a sort of a massively arty background. My dad was a sign writer and yeah, like amazing for his whole career. He was a sign writer and he's very good with his hands like building stuff. But his art is beautiful. But he was always self-taught and the sign writing was all by hand back in the day. So I was always around paint and fumes and mess and bits of paper. So I grew up drawing. That was definitely my outlet for just like relaxing. And obviously back when I was a kid, we didn't have screens.

15:29So it was just a draw constantly. It was very normal for you. Yeah, and I love it still. And it seems like ever more so, it feels like, oh, it's just like, that's a dossie lesson to do at school. Like, don't think of that seriously. But we need art. More and more as well. More and more. More and more central, I think. Yeah, and we need art to be more and more accessible. And I think that's what I love about what you're doing too. Because I think art is still seen to many people as like, it's inaccessible, it's exclusive, it's wanky, it's not for me. Whereas, you know, I'm from a working class background.

16:00I can't think of anything I'd rather do than go to the National Portrait Gallery on a Saturday and stand in front of my favourite. I just went to see the Jenny Saville exhibition recently and I stood in that last room and I was literally like buzzing. Her artwork to me is just heaven. And it makes you feel something. Could be happiness, could move you like your pictures move people. But we need music, we need theatre, we need art. And I don't think we should feel worried about saying that. we need we need it we do need it really badly yeah and I think it's very important and our culture I mean it it harms us if we cease to fund things it harms us if we don't take them seriously it's it's damaging to us as as individuals humans need that you know look at cave paintings we've always been doing it yeah really part of us yeah and we connect with it we communicate with it our emotions are triggered by it it's really and making it you know it's such a like I used to volunteer a place where a lot of the people I drew with were struggling suffering with Alzheimer's and you know I'd sit down and it was every Wednesday afternoon in Kingston and we had we had a good laugh but a lot of them said oh I can't draw I said well you can you just don't draw like anyone else yeah right but you can draw well not really I'm not well yeah you can but I dare you to just make a mark then anything and that's that'll be your drawing so like I was there for a year and a half or so and and one of the things i discovered was most of them when they're about eight or nine had been told they weren't very good yeah and so beforehand you you've asked a whole class can you draw they all put a hands yeah i can and at some point either they compare themselves or themselves or they're told they remove themselves from that process of making messy drawings until they're 80 and someone says have we got another go and then they rediscover it again.

18:00So there's a huge, huge chasm between being six and 86, which they could have just, you know. Yeah, do it because you enjoy it. Forget what it looks like. My parents are retired now and my mum's not arty at all, but as I said, my dad's really skilled and they've joined a local art club and she had that sort of barrier of, oh, I don't draw. And she's got so into painting. She's found her style. She's found the things she likes painting, like pop art kind of stuff. and she's getting so much from it and I think the more we can encourage everybody just to do a little something, it's just it's heaven, it is heaven and also I think you go into another world sometimes I'll start and it's 11 in the morning and then suddenly it's 3.44 o 'clock and I think it's only an hour and these guys were the same or they would after a few sessions they'd start looking at each other and then chatting and then laughing and going, mine's crap, isn't it?

18:58And then it brought them all together and they didn't know each other to begin with. And by the end of it, you know, I think the making of it, it's quite a vulnerable thing to make up because you're up for judgment by yourself and others, you know, it's like a, but once you get beyond that and cease to care and just have a laugh with it, make a mess. And one session I remember saying, do you remember what it was like when you were five? Can you remember it when you were making a mess on paper and they were like vaguely well let's all just pretend we're five and make the mess and be proud of your mess because every five-year-old goes look what i've done yeah yeah yeah but you know they're pleased with it right yeah your kids i guarantee you oh my kids love drawing yeah yeah yeah and you know i have to slightly convince them now they're a bit older because they everyone wants to be on a screen that's the other beauty of having a bit of paper and some paint or pens is you're off a screen like anything off a screen is going to benefit us yeah definitely it's got to be done hey i want to get into this new book which i was so lucky to get a copy of always remember i mean you don't have to but we don't have to talk about the new book i want to talk about the new book i want to get into specifics because i sat looking at this book for probably an hour not only just admiring the beautiful moving drawings like how do you make the sun look like it's glowing like that i don't understand it's just so beautiful But there's some things I want to specifically pull out.

20:21Pictures that really, I mean, there's one, actually I haven't marked it, where it's the boy stood in a big forest saying, was it my fault that killed me? Oh, my God. Yeah, you see, that's been my feeling most of my life, I think, is somewhere deep within me most of the time is, yeah, I'm in trouble somewhere. It's my fault. I have that. Do you have that? Yes. It's horrible. I constantly think I'm in trouble. Trouble with someone? With someone. I hate it. Yeah. I can't bear it. And it makes me not like authority because it's like, oh, someone else to tell me off. I give me rules. I don't like it.

20:52But that one really hit me. There it is. Oh, my God. Was it my fault? It's crazy how like a picture and four words can make you just stop you in your tracks. And it's, you know, it's a simple drawing, but it is packed with all the emotion. It's crazy. I love that one. That one hit me hard. I mean, I like that you like that one. I mean, it's the one. For me, it's the ground zero of the book. is that where, you know, like the boy's journey, which is mine, has been always, you know, quite fearful and always worried, ultimately, that he's going to be alone or abandoned or lose his connections. And that happens.

21:34And then the first thing, his immediate response is, oh, well, it must be something I said or something I did, or, you know, this is my fault. and then of course he then faces either his own there's a weasel which either you can interpret that how you want says you know so you ended up alone well that was careless and you sure they love you would they have left you if they loved you so he's the little niggling voice we all have in our heads you know we did that didn't you if only you'd been a bit funnier prettier cleverer something you know this is your doing but what I tried to do was show that the things he learned from his friends um because before they he loses them you know the horse says when the storm comes just remember who you are and he says well who am I and I was as well you know you're loved that's who you are and so he has his identity becomes relational that he's connected to them and and so when the storm comes he responds so he then makes us when the next when the weasel he turns away and goes i know that my mind can play tricks on me which our minds do yeah and it can tell me that everything's hopeless that you know it just he just spirals down or remembers how it feels he's he could this is going on now this is how but i need to remember who i am so he makes that choice okay this is going on but wait a second yeah i know i i need to remember this yeah in it so always the book you know that i'm i'm important i'm loved and so he chooses to remember his identity as being loved and then he can carry on and chooses to love himself to eventually reconnects with the others but for me you know when i was doing the book and it was made every time i seemed to well the two times i made a book it's been really tough like you know i lose a dog always it seems i lose someone someone dies you know and then there's all manner of weird that i i a load of drawings are stolen out of my car what yeah so so things just went on and on it's like relentless but but why am i saying this because i suppose i kind of always feel making a book that even when it's difficult that you've got to just say these things get them out there even if they're imperfect even if a lot of people don't even like them someone might oh my god do you see what i'm saying i mean like lots of people love your work like yeah but you know for me when making the second book was do we need to make a second what is because i wouldn't just do it for the sake for the hell no it's like come on you know but a lot of those drawings are made in during the pandemic during lockdown and i always felt you know well let's find if we find a home for them if there's a narrative that seems to be coming through then you know sew them together I mean there's always something to say because life like you just said constantly chucks challenges our way for us to dig a bit deeper find out more about ourselves and you know it's endless until we die I don't think there's ever a point where we go oh and now I'm complete and I've worked out how life works and no more stress for me you know it's just constant so this question I find such an interesting one yeah although it's a simple question it's so loaded because in our own life stories we can sit there and ponder this and I guess we need to land somewhere in the middle in most situations because I can look at parts of my life where things have gone so wrong and I've ended up just going how have I ended up here what what is going on here part of our ego whatever wants to go it's their fault it's them I'm going to point the finger the other part is doing this like oh my god it's all me I must be a terribly flawed person to have ended up in this situation or we can just go bad luck and at some point I think we hopefully land on I certainly have it's a bit of everything like you end up in a shit situation because you've made some bad choices maybe yeah and equally you know you can learn lessons from them but also there are other people where there might be you know injustice or things that aren't fair they're just not fair and it's such a hard one to have absolute clarity on Like what portion was me and what portion was out of my control?

25:57And it's not necessarily healthy, I guess, to land completely in one camp or the other. No, I think the problem is that every human is so completely unique and every situation every day is completely unique. So we're dealing with so much uniqueness. Yeah. You and I will never experience the same thing. No. But in the same breath, there are kind of common denominators that like I think generally speaking, you know I'm a great one for for looking to blame whether it's me or someone else but I think in the end blame doesn't really achieve a great deal I've learned because at some point you have to let let it go either yourself forgive yourself or others and walk free of things and when you've processed I think to do it you know too readily means you're almost in denial of the emotion that goes with damage and so you you tend to be in denial at things you try to shut it off which is a mistake.

26:50I think it's very important if bad things have been done to state them. Yeah. But in the end, once you've processed all that, to let it go means that you're not continually drinking from the same cup of toxin that only damages yourself. Yeah. I think self-forgiveness is maybe harder than forgiving other people. I think that's right. I think that's right. I think for me, definitely. um god charlie you know and then i i go go over the same thing yeah same why did i say what you know and in the end you know you just go okay let it go you know you have to you have to get any sense of peace you know we're in control of that some other pages i'd love to look at um one of them is i don't think even the river knows where it's going until it reaches the sea which i I just, I love the picture.

27:43I love the sentiment. Because I think that helps you let go. Oh, yeah. Like, no one really has a clue what we're doing. We haven't got a first idea. We all look at everyone else and go, oh, they've got their shit together. They know what they're doing. They're aiming for this one point and they're nailing it. And I'm floundering going, what the fuck am I doing? No one knows. I remember being in some library somewhere when I was little, reading. I think it was Victor Hugo or someone, a very clever person, had written a statement saying, man is set at a great pace to go nowhere. thinking that's quite depressing.

28:14For free? I don't know. But I think we are going somewhere. So I kind of disagree with him, but there was something about it made me think, yeah, we are all just, you know, going crazy. Rushing to nowhere. Rushing everywhere. Yeah. And then we get to the end of it. Like, what was that all about? What the hell was that? What were we doing? Like, bumping into each other and getting on the tube, whatever we are. And I think that drawing, I think was was a way to say because I remember thinking you know the wisest people I know and there have been many that I've been in awe of have always said to me we're just we're winging it but just wing it in the most loving way possible whether it's yourself or others but know that we don't really know where it's going to end I know, you know, but until you get there.

29:09Haven't got a clue. Haven't got a flipping clue. No. And that's kind of wonderful that we're all, I mean, some people think they know. Yeah. Or they have very clear agendas. But life has a habit of tripping up those agendas. Yep. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. I mean, I thought when I was a kid, I was like, well, I'm going to be a TV presenter. Did you think that? Did you? Yeah. And I was like, I'm just going to work so hard that one day I become Ant and Dec and then everything's great. and I was doing that and I was doing all these big TV shows, blah, blah and then everything fucking fell apart and I had this like big life crisis and then I was like, well, I don't know who I am if I'm not that and if I'm not on that path and then I've luckily gone off on a great tangent.

29:50I don't have a clue where it's ending. I've got no idea how this continues changing or evolving but I'm happily in it and I think that was the biggest lesson for me is not pinning everything to one outcome. Definitely. Which, you know, I think most of us do when we're small, you know, when we're teenagers in our 20s. We think, you know, get the job or get married or whatever it is that these milestones are meant to achieve and then we'll be OK. And I learned that one the hard way. Like that is that is going to bring you nothing. You could get you could be Ant and Dick and still feel like shit.

30:24How about you using Ant and Dick? Poor Ant and Dick. I love them. I do love them. I love them. They're the best. hey friends it's nikaela from the podcast side hustle pro i'm always looking for ways to keep my kids entertained without screens and the yoto mini has been a total lifesaver my kids are obsessed yoto is a screen-free audio player where kids just pop in a card and listen hours of stories music podcasts and more and no screens or ads with hundreds of options for ages 0 to 12 it's the perfect gift they'll go back to again and again. Check it out at yotoplay.com. Y-O-T-O-P-L-A-Y.com. Did I talk too much?

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32:39Oh, this picture, first of all, this picture is so stunning. Again, how you've captured the light and the snow falling. I sort of feel chilled looking at it. It's just so wintry and gorgeous. and then on this page you've put with a beautiful picture of the horse the boy and the mole and the fox you will have critics said the horse try not to be one of them that again like hit me between the eyes because we're living in the noisiest time at the moment there's there's no more critics than there have ever been but we hear of them more because of how we imbibe social media and the news and it just seems like everyone's critiquing everybody or hurling abuse at everybody else it It feels, everything feels like spiky and raw at the moment.

33:26But also, I think in turn, because that's so normalized, this level of criticism constantly, that we're actually criticizing ourselves more than we ever have because of that normalization. How do you feel about that topic? It's a big topic. Yeah. I think a lot of criticism comes from fear. Yeah. We're terrified. Yeah. So we're lashing out at the most different thing we can find to ourselves. And blaming it. Yeah. And we do it to ourselves. I think it's just, and it's everywhere right now. In a terrifying, you know, everything is becoming... Polarized. Polarized. Yeah. And I think to recognize that, you know, in myself, when I criticize things, if I really examine it and go, why are you doing this?

34:11Like I work with an Irish guy called Colm on the books. And we get the book to a place where we can just send it off and it's printed. And he's a very softly spoken, gentle Irish person. very really something and he would often say you know when when someone's been criticized you just just examine who that person really is like why are they being the way they are what happened to them to cause them to be that way yeah so he's always trying to trying to look at that person and then say you know and he and he also has this other brilliant thing which i love when something happens you know and making the book every time we do something happens every single day whether it's the scanner exploding or my house lights everything is always terrible things when I go I can't believe it someone said this or whatever he just says all you have to do is just say is that so is that so I like that just let it be for a second breathe and I do that these days I go yes that's okay just just let it sit for a while and breathe and then and remember that things come from broken places and if you can see that you'll blame less criticize less and you'll criticize yourself less because everyone is struggling with something but we just can't see it and I think these well these right these big protests and all these angry people and And, you know, you can see why they're angry in various ways.

35:45But ultimately, you know, if we try and understand each other a bit more. I think that's why it's so important to disagree well, to have conversations that are not just I hate you because you think differently. It's to try and understand why we're hating each other. Yeah. It's so important if this world is going to coexist. Oh, my God, I know. But like you say, so much of it, possibly all of it comes from fear. Yeah, it's a fit of it. What are you going to do to me? Yeah. And it's so interesting, that lovely phrase you've just used, is that so? You know, the opposite of that is what we all do, which is we're incredibly reactionary because we're like, I want it fixed now.

36:28Like we're the generation, we want this fixed. It needs to be sorted. This is broken. I will fix it. Whereas actually, like you just said, some amazing beauty comes from brokenness and things being a bit off. but we're just so not used to letting ourselves sit in that. Yeah. But often the answer lies in somewhere completely different. I remember when all the stress of making the first bite, actually one of the weird things that happened was that I had a disc slipped out of my lower back so I couldn't sit like this at all for a year, right? So just before everything locked down, I went to see a back guy and I was in agony.

37:02I said, I can't sit down. And he listened to me. And so I was hoping he'd say, right, lie down and I'm going to inject you and I'm going to take the pain away. He just said, you're a very shallow little breather, aren't you?

37:16What? And I said, why do you say that? He says, it's just your posture and your breathing. I think we should look at that. How you're moving, how you're living. Why are you breathing? Are you frightened of something? He says, I suggest you learn how to breathe first. And I was so cross initially. because I felt he was criticizing my breathing because he wasn't going to give me fix my back he said but I can't fix you can you can do this so he said come back in a month which I couldn't because I couldn't go anywhere in a month's time but he said I'm going to give you a list of things you need to do breathing and stretches and I want you to really dig deep into your posture do all these things and it worked.

38:09No way. Yeah, it took months. It wasn't instant. No, no, no. But it was interesting that he didn't respond to my desire for him to fix me. Because that's what I wanted. Yeah. We want everybody to fix everything for us. You know, and that Coldplay song. Exactly, just fix me. Please, Chris Martin, fix me. And so I've always remembered that, his statement. and you're a very shallow little breather, aren't you? The breathing thing is so interesting. I mean, when we do our Happy Place Festival, we have, you know, countless brilliant teachers telling us about, you know, and again and again, I have to be re-reminded, breathe.

38:45Breathe. Because I will hold my breath at the top when I'm anticipating something or I'm nervous and I'm like, have I taken an exhale in a minute? I don't think I have. I think I've just been holding my breath like at the top. It's all here. Like I'm trying to freeze time, suspend the thing that's going to happen, which I obviously can't do. I think breathing shows us so much about ourselves. But it's also an action. Yes. Because, again, in the book, the boy says, because the boy goes into a wood and he ends up in a panic, saying, I can't see a way through. The horse says, can you see your next step?

39:17He goes, yeah, well, just take that then. And then he says, what happens if I'm frightened of my next step? And the horse says, breathe. That's your next step. So it's actually, the act of breathing is a very positive action. Yes. rather than, you know, where do I need to go or do I need to ring up? Just be where you are. Do that four seconds in, hold four seconds out. Do that two minutes and then see how differently you see yourself in the world. Yeah, just stopping for a second. Just stop for a second. Yeah, we're not good at that. I mean, I'm shit at that. Listen, the twist is, you know, I made that book, but I'm clueless.

39:54Oh, I've written 100 million books about helping yourself. I'm a fucking mess, like constantly. I haven't got a clue. So that's why we write them because we're in it. We're trying to speak from that place. Yeah, yeah. I'm constantly in that place. That's why I've always got more things to say, more things to write. Yeah. I mean, this leads on from what we've just talked about. But this picture, the boy and the fox, often the best answer is just to listen. Because we're living in such a noisy time, sometimes it feels confusing as to like, who am I listening to and who should I listen to? How do you get that clarity yourself?

40:32So many voices. So many. I think I'm a real scroller and I tend to go down these rabbit holes. Me too. You know, and then the algorithm catches you and you go down and it pounds you with these concepts. And I think I no longer made the decision that I had to stop doing that. Otherwise, it pulls you to one side of things. You're no longer really listening to yourself. You're not in real dialogue with anyone. you're just passively imbibing endless stuff that's not doing you any good and it's giving you a very unbalanced view of things and so I for me I just thought I you know I've got to stop and then you know choose if there is a moment where I you know where I'm going to start doing that I put it down and try and read a book or go for a walk or do a drawing or have a cup of tea or phone a friend or do anything that that takes me out of that place so I can listen in a way that's because we this is new to us and humans haven't been doing this you know until very recently we've just been in amongst other humans chatting and listening and yeah but I think more than that I think is that we want even though we're listening we all want to be heard and yet and and and somewhat sometimes people find that they're being heard by commenting online but really you're not being heard or seen you're just you're just it disappears into shouting into the void into the ether you know so i i think talking honestly with who who are close to is the healthiest thing and that can them listening to you is an answer in itself what we're looking for more than the actual answers are just being heard yeah right so so you feel that like talking to you or talking to friends or, you know, it's such a great answer to, you know, and the boy then says, you know, I've got so many questions.

42:28And the mole says, well, Kate's usually the answer. And then the horse says, sometimes I feel we don't have the answers. And the boy says, well, no, you're with me. That's the answer. The idea is we've got to keep forging visceral, real friendships rather than ones where we look for answers online because I don't think the answers are there. No, they're not. And I think your, you know, your book sales prove that point. You know, yes, we're all obsessed with these screens, but actually we deeply want the simplicity of looking in a book and feeling connection and feeling our feelings because we're so often like numbing ourselves with our phones, food, shopping, whatever it is.

43:08We just don't want to feel anything. And actually, you know, this book has travelled, your first book has travelled around the globe. You know, it's reached far-flung corners that I'm sure you had never anticipated because people do want that simplicity. They do just want connection. It's really, yeah. I mean, if the book has done even a fraction of that, it still moves me. I got an email this morning from someone who found a book in a far-flung little tiny bookshop in the outback of Australia. it moves me so much that you can make silly marks on paper that formulate into a book that then ends up in the hands of someone and it then helps them dare to be brave to say this is what i'm feeling and i i find that like the craziest thing in the world um and sometimes you know when i get critics and of course you know who's you can't please everyone like a lot of people are going to hate the books and fine you know good on you but i just fine but but you know the thing is though is i just have to remember the 18 year old who chose not to take his life or the old lady whose granddaughter told her she was enough just as she was whoever it is like i can't keep these little emails in my phone to look back at and think because sometimes think you know the whole the whole journey you know i don't really talk about it very much but you know beyond making the book has been all the stuff that goes on around it.

44:30Some of it's been pretty grim, but some of it's been truly beautiful and, you know, a good million emails in the last six years. And 10 % of those are some of the most heartbreakingly moving things I'll ever read. And I just feel so kind of privileged and grateful and overwhelmed by it. Why am I saying all this? Don't know. Well, I think it's to counter to all the shitty noise that we know is out there and the screen addiction. It's like we just want to feel connected to other people. Yeah, connection. And, you know, we've all got so much more in common than we care to believe in terms of all the basics, like feeling sorrow, grief, heartbreak, like you're not enough, being terrified about everything.

45:18We've all got that, and yet we're not connecting. and often it is pain is a really beautiful way to connect with someone and you know and often things that we're so scared to say out loud things that have happened in our past or things that ruminating in our minds constantly they're the bits that are gonna connect you not the shiny version absolutely right 100 % out there like oh I'm all shiny and perfect let's connect it's like oh god no you know you want it doesn't work no it doesn't but I think shame is the very thing that prevents us daring to be vulnerable. Yep. And yet that daring then opens up this window into that whole universe of connection and beauty and connection that we so try to get by being shiny and perfect, which wasn't working.

46:04No. Do you know what the shame thing I'm fascinated about? I'm writing a book at the moment and I've done a deep dive. I've gone off on a tangent about shame because it seems so important in the context of this conversation. The book that I'm writing about is that it silences you. it stops you it makes you a mobile you know I had a big period of it and I and I'm still so impacted by it and and I I thought oh when I was writing I was like I've got I've got something to say on Instagram that feels like worth writing about so I wrote this piece about shame and then someone shamed me in the comment and I shut down and I deleted it and I panicked yeah you do you react and shut down I couldn't I couldn't have it and I was like oh my god but I'm writing about it and I still can't confront it and I and then I went back to my book and I wrote exactly how I was feeling in the moment which was sort of physically ill like I wanted to jump out my skin but equally I wanted to like stare shame in the face and like see who blinks first like it was just so overpowering this feeling of shame but it certainly made me take the post down I was like I don't I need to hide I don't want to be seen or heard or whatever and like you've just said if you can move through shame if you can get past it that's where you do something extraordinary different game changing for yourself for others but it's fucking hard to get through it that's terrifying terrifying and I so related to the number of posts I've immediately did because there's one comment yeah you know I bet for every one negative you get oh I had loads of people saying put the post back I really liked it where's it gone where's it gone no I was like I can't I'm I'm still in it you know I still feel it and that led to me having a really interesting conversation with a friend of mine who, you know, I know that he's had his problems and he's been relatively vocal about it, but he was like, shame brings me down almost every day still.

47:51And he was saying, you know, he'll even have an interaction with like the post lady and then spiral into shame afterwards because he said something a bit weird or whatever. And I was like, oh my God, you think you're the only person. But we're all dealing with it. We're all dealing with it. And like after a thing like this, which I mean, you know, I'm loving this conversation, but I guarantee when I leave, I go, oh god why did you say that oh yeah i do it every time are you doing and what banging on about this no one wants to hear that and we do that's why you're here you know it's terrible every time i've been on this morning or lorraine i'm like in a puddle of absolute like i'm mortified afterwards but i think shame i remember reading somewhere some well someone said it i can't remember where there was two types of shame and one is the toxic shame which remains in you for no apparent reason just the fact that you have it and it sits there.

48:42And the other one is you feel ashamed of something you've done. And the second one is easier to deal with. Yeah. That was stupid. I'm so sorry. But there's this other weird shame that hangs in you. Yeah. Just because you exist. Yep. What? It's mad. Right? Yeah. And more of us feel like that than I think we care to believe, which is helpful because shame doesn't want us to know that other people feel like that. No, no, no. it's just you just you you're the problem yeah it wasn't my fault yeah I know it's mind-blowing yeah but the moment you start talking I did a drawing years ago I think then it was in a police cell somewhere I put and I took that one down because I think it was worded right but I said something like shame keeps you silent but there's no shame in talking or asking for help it was something like that and the words hadn't but you know I remember someone saying oh you know shame has its use and I took it took it down but I think the moment you start talking about it is the moment people engage with it and oh I'm not alone then yeah and I think it's the it's the feeling of it's just you there's a deeply lonely feeling that but the moment we go oh you do that as well you feel that oh my god me too okay so so there's hope then because actually this is this is a universal issue.

50:01It's a human condition. It's a human condition. And how do we get free from this? How do we walk freely? And I think it's conversation, connection, vulnerability, telling the truth. You do it in the right place, but daring to believe you'll be loved more for it.

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51:46I think there's something extra special about you being a man doing this, because we still know that there is a huge mental health crisis for men and the outcome is disproportionately awful compared to women. It kills more men than anything else. With suicide, it's just, it's horrendous. And I think for men to see, for other men to see you being vulnerable and writing about feelings is powerful. I mean, that's a lovely thing to say. I mean, essentially the four characters are part of me and I remember engaging with these different sides of me and then putting them into the world, not really fully realising at the time.

52:21you know, and I started to address things. And I remember years ago doing this. I thought I'd do a show of drawings in some gallery, right? So I hired this space and thought maybe my mum would come, my sister and my friend. And like 10 ,000 people came in five days. Holy shit. Yeah. It was completely nuts. It was insane, right? And so I was leaning against the wall and going, hi, nice to see you. but I remember I remember some of the people who were there particularly the men and I remember one girl bringing sort of pulling her enormous looking boyfriend in to meet me and he just was standing looking at me and she said go on say something to her boyfriend to me and I said he doesn't need to say anything you know and he was kind of tongue tied and then his eyes welled up and we just looked at each other and and she was looking at him and then i i just thought right i'm just gonna ask we just had a hug and he was we had this long hug and he started sobbing um and then he just he just pulled himself together and turned and walked out and i never knew what his story was and i've heard from a lot of men since who have been on the edge of things who have realized that it is a courageous thing to dare to show your weakness, to say help.

53:53These things are not failings. They're courageous things because it's choosing life. It's choosing you over being here as opposed to not being here. And sometimes an exit seems the easier option. And therefore, it's braver to fight for your life, braver to and I think for me the men the men that I've heard from and still continue to do so um have always said you know I I've never known quite how to verbalize what I really feel and I have a good I put on a good show I'm I do these this this there's nobody knows what I'm feeling yeah and you know they you know my if you I did a drawing the other night actually of this crazy messy wood um and it's wild and completely scrawling and and um the mole says the boy you know um you feel your feelings look like this but all we see is this and it's a leaf little leaf just falling so there's this disparity between what's going on inside of you which is all kinds of stuff and then you show us this and at some point you're going to have to for your freedom talk about this yeah get get it out yeah just whoever it is doesn't really matter or it does matter but just do it and i think that's been the journey for me is hearing from all kinds of people but particularly locked quite locked in men who've lived a life and then they they're struggling to carry on doing that because of this thing in them and they try to medicate it with whatever it is and there are many ways of medicating that kind of thing um but when they say i dared to say look at this insane wood yeah look at this this is this is what's going on and unpick one branch at a time take make that journey yeah um there's been you know i you know it's very moving to read their stories and to recognize that you know we're all to a greater to a lesser extent, that's us, isn't it?

56:07Yeah, exactly that. And it's just for me, I've lost plenty of friends who are not here because they, for whatever reason, have chosen not to be. And I think about them often and wonder, you know, you do, don't you? You go, what if we'd said this or could we have got them to do that? Yeah.

56:29But I think doing this, what you and I are doing, talking honestly and saying this is this is me this is me and you're you know and believing that shame locks you in but if you dared to to be vulnerable you have this this oh my gosh huge vista to walk in yeah of honesty yeah and and you do this you feel this okay okay okay and you think other people are gonna go oh my god i'm never gonna talk to you again you are awful and they don't they do the opposite and i learned that time i did it recently where i was like someone i didn't know as well and there was things that were sort of plaguing me mentally and then I was like one day I just need to tell you some stuff about myself because I'm feeling like I'm just like living a lie like being an actor and of course everything I said was met with kindness compassion love and it's you know we have to remind ourselves that you know most great people will respond with grace and care they're not gonna shun you and ostracize you that's not not the case um I had I had a brilliant brilliant therapist he was actually an ex-franciscan monk i think but he was like he had he had honestly the brain the size of the house and such a kindness to him and i went to him once a week in the west end alone somewhere and and when we were talking about this stuff and i generally having spoken about various things would then feel like i was a foot off the ground when i left the room and we were talking about and i said this is your job and you listen to this crap every day and he said he said something i've always remembered it and i think about a lot he said when someone tells you the truth of themselves what they're going through whatever it is receive it like they're giving you gold it's gold yeah they're being brave and don't judge them for it just just just say thank you that was a that's that's flipping treasure to me yeah but i think we're frightened that we're not we think we're giving a turd i know do you know i mean we're frightened we think if i say this you know they're gonna yeah say the opposite yeah but if if you receive it with with kindness and and like wow you dared to say that yeah it's beautiful it's beautiful it is it's a lovely thing and then and then there's a sort of freedom in it yeah it's amazing.

58:52One message that got a lot of commentary about it on your Instagram was when you were hiding in the loos at the Oscars. All the time I had. I was hiding in the loos here for a little bit. My first question when I go here is where's the loos? Just deep breathing the toilet. I don't know what I'm saying. But the fact that you'd written it on a bit of toilet paper, it was just so perfect. I mean, was that an utterly terrifying experience? I mean, you won an Oscar, so it was obviously celebratory too, but terrifying. Yeah, it was completely terrifying. And I was in those loos a lot. in Hollywood

59:26so great yeah and I remember writing that on this on a bar I thought it was going to tear the loo papers yeah so I for me I do you know I have this moment where I go oh god I can't do this what am I going to say I'm going to say something terrible or you know why am I even here and I hide but I think of friends and I think of my mum various people have said just remember you know just be yourself just just tell the truth yeah it's much more interesting than pretending anything yeah just say you know I think I always love when a British person wins an Oscar because it kind of cuts through the bullshit there's just like a moment of oh a British person they're going to say something sort of a bit funny and off the beaten track and it just sort of like grounds everyone I can't remember what i said to be honest but but i do like after them you know what happens is you know you then wheeled around facing your shunted between in front of various cameras and i find myself saying you know like the question was so how do you find hollywood and i find myself coming up with the same thing and i remember saying oh you don't do it justice and they're like what do you mean so well it's not glamorous it's better than that i said because the conversation i've had here like at the the the nominees lunch sitting there's people from you know all quiet on the western front some guy on the guy from you know they were all it began with hey so who you and then within five minutes everyone's saying yeah well my my wife you know you know she's going through it oh my son does and everybody was sharing this this journey they were all on and making the film had been some kind of nightmare in some way and the vulnerability levels in that place were just unbelievable yeah you wouldn't expect that no you think you're going to this sparring oh i'm cool and you're cool and who are you gonna win and i didn't find that i said what a shame that in many ways you're just kind of so fixed on showing the glamour which is clearly present and great but what about saying how brave making a film is courageous all these people have real lives how did you even get that do you know what I mean we're just finding out who the humans are behind it all what a cool opportunity to do that they didn't like it I've never seen people with so much makeup oh yeah yeah yeah yeah when these men were like it was hilarious and i'm like wow that's a lot but then you look at the screen they actually look quite good normal exactly and then look at me and i'm all blotchy and sweaty and red oh god yeah i could see why but in the end you know i kind of loved it for that because i did meet some of those guys you know just not what you thought they were going to be yeah that's so cool yeah i loved it for that yeah it's a beautiful thing and And obviously, like, what a moment to win an Oscar.

1:02:31It's just, where is the Oscar? It's just sitting there with some coffee mugs. Is it? That's brilliant. It's quite heavy. You sometimes do workouts. Oh, I love that. Yeah, the Oscar was though, you know, it's not why you do things. No, no, no. And the same with selling books. It's not why I ever dreamt of selling out to make a book was to see how many we could sell. it was always you know like i remember feeling there are these moments in your life where you go that's why i did this or you know and you hear from someone like the first book signing i ever did was at chalping literary festival and i was sweaty and awkward and you know people were saying huge things and you know i i don't know i just felt like really um okay and then there was a there was a certain 18 19 year old lad at the back of the queue who'd been standing there for an hour and he shuffled forward and looked at me and he didn't have a book and i said can i give you a book he said no i i don't want you to sign anything i went okay and then he looked awkwardly and people were leaving the the room was pretty empty but and i said you know you're okay and he said yeah and um again trying to he was trying to find words that you know and then he just said i just want you to know that i i decided to stay oh god and i said to him what you mean in the queue you know that was my reaction was and i went oh and then half a second two seconds i said okay he said yeah yeah i i am you know i i realized it was a braver thing to do so thank you and he had these tears starting to go down his face and I thought oh god and um I looked at him and thought okay so all of this for just this guy I'll take that that's it that's it I don't care about what's good I don't care about whatever it is is this one human decided to stay here I do it all again yeah and I really mean that so for me you know that's like everything yeah it's amazing it's amazing it's just mind-blowingly incredible but fern you're doing it we're all at it in different ways trying to connect trying to give it yeah exactly see what yeah you know how we can encourage each other to be more connected yeah that's what it's all about basically yeah it's that simple it is that simple and to love ourselves and each other and and you know stay yeah yeah exactly before we round things up i would love to know where is your happy place charlie that's a really good question i'm quite like i'm one of those people that's quite an introvert that loves people i'm the same right yeah so i usually have to hide and get my in So when I'm getting my energy back, one of my fifth, if I can divide the two, the introvert and the connected one is the introvert likes.

1:05:45I planted a lot of trees in the last five years. Oh, right. Nice. Planted 2000 trees. Whoa. I'm obsessed with trees. So I bought some fields and just that's what I've been doing, planting like and hedges. And I like seeing rewilding, seeing butterflies and everything come alive from once just a flat field. and so I sometimes just I go like this morning before I left I just sat in there it was quite windy but I've been watching butterflies and things and I I feel like you know it because of planting all these trees these things have come here and made homes here and that moves me a lot that you you can plant things that bring nature alive yeah so I that for me I feel part of it and then some ducklings I could reared and they turn up and I feed them so that's a happy place but there's no human there yeah I get that I'm the same I need to recharge after I've had a day of talking to people I have to go and look after my children which is then sometimes like oh my god there's so many voices and questions I need at least an hour in the week where I'm on my own and I don't even listen to music.

1:07:03I just need to be walking in silence and not even see another human. If I see a neighbour, I'm like hiding behind a bush. Yeah, I want to talk to them. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so I pace around the young trees seeing which ones I'm making, which ones I'm making. That's a happy place. And I suppose the other happy place for me is just being with friends who you can, I can just be ridiculous. Yeah, be yourself. Be yourself and not try to be nothing. and you feel it feels great it does it's the best it feels great and you're not performing in any way sometimes not saying anything yeah oh that's even better oh yeah let them speak I think both of us now need to like respectively go and recharge in a quiet room yeah but you're great it's great to talk to you because I think I think even though you struggle with it and I I think it does cost you something to do this a massive amount yeah you're you're brave for it and and i think to say the things you do people go oh yeah okay and that helps someone yeah i mean i hope so you don't know you know yeah no you hope so you hope and you know like you i meet enough people that say thank you powerful things that you just think christ i you know i don't have a clue what i'm doing i'm just like bumbling along but i'm honest i will tell you how i'm feeling and what i'm struggling with most of the time.

1:08:27And there's always stuff you've got to hold back for yourself because you're dealing with it in therapy and you're working through stuff or whatever. But, you know, and it's made me think I need to repost the shame post. I think I'm going to do that today. Are you? Yeah, fuck it. Yeah, fuck it. Just say it. Just say it. Just say the thing. Maybe I should. My old one. Yeah, do it. Let's both repost the ones we can't. But why do we go, oh, someone says a nasty thing or... yeah you're right you're completely right delete delete i know it's because we had a bit of self doubt in the first place then it just implodes it completely but it's also quite it's brave to say anything or or make anything or you know the book you're making is brave yeah you know i saw a brilliant thing the other day where someone some gymnast was doing something and there was a guy lying on the couch going come on yeah yeah exactly yeah wait a second they're in the arena getting And sweating and blood and toil.

1:09:22Yes. You're just the critic. Yeah. What's the Roosevelt quote? Yeah, that's the one. Yeah, exactly. Right. Unless you're in the ring, you haven't got a say. Sorry, mate. Sorry, mate. They're the ones. Exactly, doing it. And you're doing it. Too right. Well, yeah. Giving it my best shot. Charlie, what an honour. What a joy. Thank you so much for being on the podcast. I bloody love that. I really did too. Oh, Charlie, thank you so, so much. I just, I loved every bit of that chat. just what an amazing man amazing talent the talent not only being that he's just an incredible artist but also that he has somehow tuned in to be able to sort of tap into all of our emotions and connect with us it's remarkable always remember the boy the mole the fox the horse and the storm is out now now why don't you come and have a little natter on Instagram during the week we're at happyplaceofficial but also much more importantly why don't we all try and find a bit of connection with someone in an unexpected place.

1:10:22I mean, it's terrifying, but why not start a conversation with someone on the bus, on the train, in the coffee shop, at the school gates? It feels uncomfortable, but it's a beautiful way to just connect off of screens. I bet you'll feel better afterwards. All right, a massive thanks again to Charlie, to the producer, Anushka Tate, and to you. I love ya.

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