Book Club Meets: Activism, misogyny, and Page 3, with Jo Cheetham

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1:56Figs moves with me and keeps me comfortable in the highest pressure situations. Figs gives me one less thing to worry about. Get 15 % off your first order by visiting wearfigs.com and use code FIGSRX at checkout. That's wearfigs.com, code FIGSRX. News not boobs! News not boobs! News not boobs! It was a proper protest, like you'd see on TV. Welcome to the Happy Place Book Club with me, Fern Cotton. I was in shock. Today, Killjoy by Jo Cheatham. In the centre was a group of women who appeared to be leading the event. A woman with curly hair was shouting into a megaphone next to some people holding a giant birthday card covered in pictures cut out of newspapers.

2:44One side held all the photos of women taken from every tabloid paper for six weeks. The other side showed all the photos of men from the same newspapers. Across the top it said spot the difference The women were naked, topless or wearing underwear or bikinis all so young, all with the same body type Almost all of them were white The men were footballers, cricketers, rugby players, politicians They were wearing sports kits and suits and none of them were bending over a chair raising their eyebrows in a surprise manner and pouting. Not one of those blokes was suggestively licking an ice cream. None of them were stripped to the waist, covered in baby oil and laughing at a beach ball.

3:38I scanned faces, but I couldn't see Lucy, Priya or Max. But somewhere towards the back of the crowd was a woman dressed as a cup of tea. She was the only person in fancy dress. I felt for that woman. I wanted to tell her it was a good costume, really original and very well done. Was it papier-mâché? But she was busy shouting and pointing, so I just felt relieved I wasn't dressed as a tin of beans and started handing out the gingerbread. Two people asked me if the gingerbread men were vegan. Then somebody asked if they contained refined sugar. Ten minutes later, a woman asked if they were gluten-free.

4:21She also half-jokingly corrected me and said, Gingerbread people. Part of me, quite a large part, wanted to throw the tin up in the air and make a noise like a wild boar. I didn't, though. I just smiled and got on with it, like a flight attendant handing out pretzels in a pocket of turbulence. Then a camera crew approached and asked if they could film me signing the birthday card. Everyone was scrolling messages around the pictures, saying why there should be no more Page 3. Jo Cheetham was a long way from home, studying and working as a nanny in London, when she found out there was going to be a protest against Page 3 in the Sun newspaper.

5:08She went along, her life and society was about to change. Killjoy is the story of Jo and the other utterly brilliant women who protested up and down the country, attended Parliament, made an unlikely group of friends and ultimately got rid of page three. The book is warm, it's moving, it's blimmin' hilarious and it really demonstrates the power of a grassroots campaign. What we can achieve if we shout a little bit louder. I love chatting to Jo because what's quickly evident is that Jo is the last person you think of when you think of an angry campaigner. She says that herself. She never thought driving societal change, tackling deep-rooted misogyny was something she'd end up doing.

5:53But she did feel a low-lying rage that kept growing. And I think there's a lesson in there about really trusting our gut feelings and giving them a voice. Jo, it's so lovely to talk to you today and I'm utterly thrilled that Killjoy is our book of the month in our Happy Place book club. We're absolutely thrilled to be reading this book along with our followers. So thank you, first of all, for writing it because it's bloody brilliant. Oh, thank you so much. I'm absolutely thrilled that you picked it. And I'm delighted to be talking to you. Oh, I'm so glad. I mean, there's so much that myself and the other book club followers can sort of get stuck into theme wise and discussion points are plenty.

6:38you and a group of amazing women managed to stop the page three which many of us were overjoyed about and this book tells the story of how you got involved in the campaign and to your amazing victory um going back to the start of your own life what were your thoughts and feelings of page three well at first I remember first seeing it when I was a kid and I didn't I just didn't understand why there was a naked woman in the paper you know and I remember thinking well isn't she a bit cold and I'd draw clothes on her you know and put her a jumper on and everything but I mean I grew up on a council estate in Rotherham and everybody read the sun um so I saw it every day I saw it at home my dad was a sun reader I saw it at school you know kids would bring it into school teachers would bring it into school it was on public transport it was even at the chip shop you know when you fish and chips would be wrapped in newspapers so you sometimes get a topless woman with your chips so it was part of daily life and I saw it every day and then when I became a teenager and you know street harassment became a thing every day we'd walk to school and somebody would shout at us out of a car and of course the women on page three at the time a lot of them were 16 they were our age and they were from my kind of background you know they were mainly working class girls and I just think it probably wasn't the best idea in the world considering the amount of kind of unwanted touching unwanted comments that we got every day of our lives yeah it was reading that the your thoughts around it growing up much of it mirrored my own and it's one of those things that maybe I hadn't taken the proper time to go wow that was utterly bizarre and actually how did that impact me my dad was a sign writer for his whole career he's a very gentle soul he's a lovely lovely man but he worked with a bunch of blokes and I remember going into their big warehouse where they work like a big sort of workshop stinking of paint fumes and there were page three pictures stuck on the wall there'd be going to the little tea area and there'd be a calendar with a naked woman on it and you know I would have been like five six seven and it was all very normal I think that was the worrying thing about it the normalization of it and the fact that like you say it was ubiquitous everywhere you turned you had seen this imagery and I think it impacted many of us in many ways like you say perhaps leading to harassment or also comparing your own body to other women there's a whole myriad of things that will have impacted us from seeing those sorts of images.

9:23What I also found, I mean, the book is, I should also say, not only so brilliant and poignant and we get to really dissect the notion of the power of people, which I think is greatly underestimated, but also it's laugh out loud funny. I was howling with laughter reading this book. It's a real feel good read as well. And what I loved is the journey you took from finding out about this campaign and sort of having your own thoughts about it to being at the forefront before the No More Page Three campaign. You had not dallied in activism whatsoever, right? Absolutely. I mean, I barely even dared speak to anyone.

10:06But honestly, I was the kind of person that apologised about 500 times a day. You know, if somebody walked into me and knocked my bag off my shoulder, I'd go, oh, I'm so sorry. And, you know, I just I was so polite. I was so frightened of everything. I had a phobia of even having a photograph taken, you know. So the idea that I would have ever been involved in any kind of activism is still to me laughable. You know, I was the most unlikely person. And it did kind of happen by mistake. You know, it wasn't any kind of plan. Tell us about this. I think whether people have already read the book or they're about to, it's really worth you exploring this subject of how somebody who's never spoken up about anything before goes to being in a really active campaign.

10:54How did that accidental moment occur? I think it's quite common amongst women to have a moment when you just lose it and you get so angry where there's like loads of bad stuff that are happening, that's happening all at the same time. And I'd moved from Rotherham to London. I was going to university. I felt really out of place, really, really. I felt so working class. And also it was a time when I was getting loads of street harassment. You know, there were builders at the end of my road and they would shout at me every single morning like clockwork. And I remember just feeling this mountain kind of rage, actually.

11:35And that was there. But I wasn't doing anything about it because I did think, well, you know, I can't really do anything about any of this stuff. It's just part of daily life. You kind of just have to get on with it. And then I remember opening a newspaper and reading about this woman, Lucy Ann Holmes, who had set up the campaign to end page three. and it just kind of there was some kind of little spark and I just thought huh that's interesting but and there was a picture of her just standing on the street wearing a no more page three t-shirt and I thought I would never dare do that I would never dare wear that kind of you know confrontational slogan t-shirt ever in public and I just kept thinking about it and then I saw that um there was a post on Facebook and they were going to have a protest and I thought well you know maybe I'll just turn up at the protest but kind of just like walk past it you know whilst drinking a coffee and just kind of see from a distance like what was going on so I turned up and there were only three people there so immediately I was kind of like dragged into it and there were sort of people taking photographs there was a press photographer and there was three people and me so I was kind of immediately dragged into the front line of this and given like a sign and I was kind of completely by mistake part of this protest I mean it's just the most brilliant initiation and I and I love that sort of accidental but perhaps very fateful moment but of course over time you became such an instrumental part of this incredible group of women and also a beautiful friendship that was created as well and you did really find your voice and you jolly well used it and I think it's so important to get that message out there because there are tons of things that bother all of us whether it's you know it could be a charitable scenario it could be something happening very locally to you it could be something in your kids school it could be something just globally you're not happy about and I think most of us arrive very quickly at helplessness and we just go there is nothing that I could do that could change anything and that's obviously how you felt I feel about I feel about it about lots of different things that are going on in the world I feel exactly the same but actually you've proved with this book that with the right people the right mindset a few little moments of luck thrown in for good measure in terms of timing you can make a lot of noise how surprising was that to you it's still surprising to me and I forget this all the time and I have to remind myself of what's possible because all of us who were involved with the campaign were ordinary people.

14:20I mean, whatever an ordinary person is, we were that. You know, we had no experience of campaigning whatsoever. We were absolutely skint. We were all skint. We were all, you know, working multiple jobs, raising kids, looking after elderly parents, doing all this stuff and just kind of fitting in the campaign wherever we could and the fact that we managed to succeed by just coming together and kind of really just giving it our best even though we had no idea what we were doing it just shows that if we could do that anybody can pretty much do anything I think yeah I mean it's so motivating I was reading it going oh bloody hell I'm sure you know I could gather a few people here to sort this situation out or that it makes you it's it's extremely motivating knowing that it's absolutely possible and you were taking down something that had been as we said very normalized and running perfectly well in its eyes for a very long time and you've managed to change something that's positively affected many many women out there which is it's such a joyful thing on top of that feeling knowing that you've done something on that level so impactful what else did the campaign bring you you know you've got that that level of newness of wow I've never done this before but I know that obviously meeting those women and and having that friendship has also given you a load of other gifts in life completely I can't bear to think what would have happened if I hadn't gone to that protest by mistake because I met my best friends basically and they're still the people you know that I love most and admire most and I want their opinion on everything and I want to impress them you know when there's someone who you really admire and you want to kind of make them proud they're kind of my litmus test for everything I do and we're still really close and we've got this incredible sort of support network and I think a lot of that is because when we first got involved we planned everything via a Facebook group and we were scattered across the country you know we hadn't all met in person so there was enough distance I think to be really honest in within these chats because we didn't know each other we didn't work together for you know we were kind of strangers and we jumped right in with these really deep conversations from the very beginning and it meant that when we did meet in in person we had this bond that was kind of already there and it was just natural that we were going to become really good friends because we'd already shared so much I really like that in the book we get a flavor of those conversations and you've kind of got each woman in there saying their piece and maybe um offloading something or admitting something or you know it felt like we shouldn't be reading it as the reader and I really love that it was a real insight into your blossoming friendships and relationships and how you navigated the hugeness of what you were trying to do it's a lovely lovely part of the book how did you find the writing process putting this mammoth story down on paper oh it was really hard I went through so much self-sabotage writing this book I mean it's ridiculous oh I really did all I ever wanted to do my whole life was write you know I've written every day of my life since I learned how to hold a pen and I wanted to tell this story because I knew how special these women are and what an amazing thing we'd done together so I did want to write it but then it was just that thing you know here's something I really want to do now I'm going to do everything I can to not do it and I mean I had a lot of external stuff going on while I was writing it.

18:17Both of my parents were diagnosed with cancer. They both died. You know, I had to move to the other end of the country. Loads of stuff was going on. But also I really stopped myself from writing it a lot of the time. And I had to kind of push through all of this to actually get it down on paper. Isn't it mad that we do that? I think everybody listening to this will have had one of those moments where we really want to do something and we become the block. We become our own worst enemy. and even starting I think starting is probably the hardest bit with anything new a new challenge you want to set yourself a new goal whatever it might be we're in our own way how did you eventually get out of your own way just to put your fingertips to your laptop keys how did you get to that moment I did it because I had to because I had deadlines yeah and there's nothing more powerful than a really strict deadline to you know get you moving but also I wanted to do justice to these people you know I wanted to try and do my best in describing what they're like and what they did and what we shared together so every day that I wasn't really spending enough time trying to work out how to write this book I felt like I was kind of betraying something in you know in not in not doing it it felt like I was actively shutting the door on all of that amazing stuff that we'd done so and I didn't want to do that and obviously you've had the most amazing response to the campaign itself which just grew and grew in momentum what's the response been like to the book and how have you processed that really good and I was I was nervous because obviously we got a lot of fantastic support for the campaign but there was a lot of sort of trolling and people who threatened us a lot and who were not happy at all with what we're doing and I kind of expected quite a bit of that as well when the book came out but I don't know if it's because time's changed quite a lot you know things have changed a lot in the last 10 years or if I don't know I'm not on social media now really for that reason actually yeah um but it's been overwhelmingly positive it's been lovely well of course because it's a bloody brilliant book and also I'm I mean I was so I you know I was fascinated even reading the extracts in the book about the trolling and I find it utterly weird why why would you want to stop you brilliant women doing what you're doing if you're that desperate to see a lady's tits go on the internet there's loads of pictures everywhere it's not like you're relying on the paper anymore for that hit you can just go on the internet it's a symbolic thing wasn't it you know of course of course it was expected that page three was going to be there so to remove it it felt like quite a big thing i think oh it's just so brilliant what you've done i i'm grateful personally because i i was even thinking when i was reading the book wow i wonder how i would navigate if i was like i don't know sat on the train and someone had the paper next to me and I was with my kids taking them into town and the kids were like oh wow what's that what like how would I explain it you know I haven't had to go through that because of what you guys did and that's that's huge that's you know can you actually digest the weight of what you've done because it is it is a huge thing and as you say it's emblematic of so much can you actually process the fact that you with your mates have done this no no not at all I mean I feel like a complete idiot almost every hour every day honestly um I've never I've never sat down and thought oh I'm really proud of that actually um maybe it'll take a bit more time I don't know but um that's a really nice thing to say and no I haven't thought of that it's huge it's absolutely huge knowing the power of people and the power of communicating with other people and building momentum, would you take on another cause?

22:35Are you seeing yourself moving towards other areas where you could put this sort of activism into play? Maybe, but the thing about the campaign was that, as I said, none of us had any experience. We weren't activists and we didn't plan on it, really. It kind of happened, as I said, sort of by mistake in this kind of organic way. And I think the power of it was that we weren't kind of professional campaigners. I think a lot of people think that to be an activist is a job, you know, and you've got the Gretas and the Malalas and these phenomenal people who make all the change happen. But actually, we were just completely ordinary people.

23:20And I think if everybody just did one thing, you know, whether it is to chase down Rupert Murdoch, which, you know, is probably easier now. He's a bit older. Well, as you said, do something at your kid's school, whatever it is. If we all just did one thing, it would change everything. So, I mean, it is possible that we'll end up doing something else. It's definitely possible. But also, if we don't, I think that's enough. I do think it's enough for people to just have a go at one thing I agree I absolutely agree I think it's such a brilliant answer and it is again really important for us to understand that if we've got an idea and we really feel strongly against something it's always worth standing up and saying your piece if you can it's always even if it feels shit scary which it always will and if you can find like-minded people who want to stand there with you for support and for encouragement even better.

24:18But I think your book has totally motivated me in that way that, okay, this feels impossible. I feel helpless, but read Jo's book. Like it's all in there. And as I said at the start of this, it's hilariously funny. It's so beautifully written. It was just an absolute joy to read. So a huge congratulations. And I can't wait for the Happy Place Book Club followers to all get stuck in reading it too. So Jo, thank you so much for talking to me today. Oh, Fernie, it's been such a pleasure. thank you joe i found that so interesting that self-sabotage almost got in the way of you writing that book thank heavens you did write it in the end because that is a story we all need to hear the book is called killjoy and it comes incredibly highly recommended by me and by you guys too jesse commented on instagram at happy place book club saying this book is such a great read i'm loving how the story's told and also learning a lot at the same time.

25:17Killjoy made Lisa really angry and sad but also made me laugh out loud. Such a fantastic read and with messages that are just as important today. Well look thank you Jessie and Lisa and every single one of you who've been reading along with us over at the Happy Place Book Club. We're in April now and this month's book club read is The List of Suspicious Things by Jenny Godfrey. Have you read it? If not or if you have. This is going to be a good month for all of us. This is a gorgeous coming of age story through the lens of a 13 year old girl's search for the Yorkshire Ripper. Miv is terrified that her dad wants to move her down south because of the murders.

25:57So she figures if she can solve the case of the disappearing women herself, the family could stay in Yorkshire. The thing is, their search reveals more secrets than they thought possible. Have you started reading yet? What are you making of it? I'll be chatting to Jenny on the show in a few weeks and I would love it if you sent me a voice note. DM us on at Happy Place Book Club and you could be on the next book club episode or jot down all your thoughts in a little comment. Get involved, we're at Happy Place Book Club on Instagram. That's where all the chat is happening and I know this book is already hugely popular so hopefully there's going to be lots of chat about it.

26:35Until next time, a huge thank you again to joe to the producer anushka tate at happy play studios and to you i love you bookworms

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