Book Club Meets: Fate, mortality, and psychics, with Liane Moriarty

0:00Later, not a single person will recall seeing the lady board the flight at Hobart Airport. Welcome to the Happy Place Book Club with me, Fern Cotton. Nothing about her appearance or demeanour raises a red flag or even an eyebrow. Today, Hear One Moment by Leanne Moriarty. One thing is clear. The lady is a lady. Not a single person will later describe her as a woman or a female. Obviously, no one will describe her as a girl. There is uncertainty about her age. Possibly early 60s, maybe in her 50s, definitely in her 70s. Early 80s? As old as your mother, as old as your daughter, as old as your auntie, your boss, your university lecturer.

0:46The unaccompanied minor will describe her as a very old lady. The elderly couple will describe her as a middle-aged lady. Maybe it's her grey hair that places her so squarely in the category of lady. It is the soft silver of an expensive kitten, shoulder length, nicely styled, good hair, good grey, the sort of grey that makes you consider going grey yourself. One day, not yet. The lady is small and petite, but not so small and petite as to require solicitousness. She does not attract benevolent smiles or offers of assistance. Looking at her does not make you think of how much you miss your grandmother.

1:31Looking at her does not make you think anything at all. You could not guess her profession, personality or star sign. You could not be bothered. You wouldn't say she was invisible as such. Maybe semi-transparent. The lady is not strikingly beautiful or unfortunately ugly. She wears a pretty green and white patterned collared blouse tucked in at the waistband of slim-fitting grey pants. Her shoes are flat and sensible. She is not unusually pierced or bejeweled or tattooed. She has small silver studs in her ears and a silver brooch pinned to the collar of her shirt, which she often touches as if to check that it's still there.

2:17Which is all to say, the lady who will later become known as the death lady on the delayed 3.20pm flight from Hobart to Sydney is not worthy of a second glance, not by anyone, not a single crew member, not a single passenger, not until she does what she does. Even then, it takes longer than you might expect for the first person to shout, for someone to begin filming, for call buttons to start lighting up and dinging all over the cabin like a pinball machine. So we're on a plane. We've got a flight attendant who's working on her birthday, a mum struggling with her two young children, a young man returning from his best friend's funeral.

3:03All these people in this small space who are all on their own journeys. But they're about to encounter an elderly woman who, in just a few words, will make a prediction that will tie them all to her and to each other. This is the plot of Liane Moriarty's Here One Moment, which was our Happy Place Book Club pick for November. Now, obviously, the best part about a book club is that we all get to read a book together and chat about it afterwards, which is exactly what you've all been doing on Instagram over on at Happy Place Book Club. This is what Sarah made of the book. I read this book and I've never read another Leanne Moriarty book, so I had absolutely no idea what to expect.

3:44And when I started reading it, I thought, oh, you can tell what's going to happen to all the characters because she's predicted what's going to happen. And in some cases it did, but in others it didn't. And I couldn't put it down. I just enjoyed finding out about everybody. I just thought I'd worked out what was going to happen and it didn't. And it kept me guessing. So I thought it was an amazing book. Really, really good. I'm so glad you've chosen it for the book club. Yeah, thanks, Sarah. You're so right. The plot really keeps you guessing. I couldn't stop guessing till the end. Okay, Fleur has asked a question.

4:17Love that, Fleur. Give it to me. So I'm an author of nonfiction and I'm always so interested in the creative process for fiction writers, especially in stories with multiple characters, interconnected storylines and plots. So what I was wondering about here one moment is do you think that Leanne writes each character's story out in full and then splits them up and makes connections in between? and do you think she follows the same creative process and plot development and editing structure for each of her books? That's bloody interesting Fleur. I wish I'd asked her that question. It's a really really good question.

5:01Well having spoken to Liane I think her process is pretty fluid and she's going with the flow without a huge plan. You'll hear her say that. So I don't think she wrote out each personal story then split them I think she went she kind of just wrote as she went with it for me I mean probably quite similar I think to what I'm imagining Leon's process is which is just to sort of let the story unfold I well scripted was my first novel which I released in June this year and obviously I've never been through that process although I've written a lot of non-fiction books but I was pretty thorough in working out the character's motivation and why they were acting in such a way.

5:42But I didn't write a sort of bio for them. I just tried to incrementally draw out their past throughout the story. Okay, let's get to Leanne then. By the way, that is how you pronounce her name. Oh, fucking hell. I called her Leanne, didn't I? What a dick. I've been calling her Leanne for years, just thinking it was Leanne. Why didn't I think there's only one N, it's got to be Leanne? I didn't. But you know what? As I said Leanne at the start of the chat, I thought, forgive yourself Fern, forgive yourself. You're a human, you're fallible, you make mistakes like everyone, don't beat yourself up about it.

6:14And I got over the embarrassment in, I reckon, three seconds, which is a new personal best for me. So I'm pretty glad about that. The market's uncertain, revenues tied and hiring on hold. That's why results driven companies are using Upwork to keep work moving. Go to upwork.com today and start hiring proven freelance talent fast. No bulky overhead. No rigid long-term contracts. Just the right expert right when you need them. Work smarter and faster with Upwork. Go to Upwork.com now and find your freelance expert. That's U-P-W-O-R-K.com. Post a job for free and get started today. Hi, this is Knox from the Popcast with Knox and Jamie.

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8:38Hey, Leanne. Hello, Fern. No, I should say it's actually Leanne. Leanne? Yeah. Why am I only learning that now? I've been calling you Leanne for a thousand years. I know. A lot of people do. No, it's my mum's fault, but it's actually Leanne. I'm not being posh. No, no, no. Look, I've got a weird name spelled really strangely and no one ever either says my name right or spells it right. So I feel your pain. I get it. We're together. We're together in this. I'm so happy to talk to you today. We find you towards the end of your day and very much the beginning of mine. You're in sunny Australia. We're in extremely cold London.

9:21It's something like minus one here today and we've had a bit of snow and it's just really quite miserable, actually. How's things your end? Actually, it's been a little bit of a grey day, but yes, it's warm. Having said that, I quite like the cold, so I'd rather be over there. I don't know. This is the sort of cold where you can't get warm unless you have a bath or like neck a lot of soup. You just can't get warm. It's impossible. Yes, I know what you mean, but I love the excuse to have a bath. Oh, me too. I love a bath. Speaking of which, my favourite place to read is in the bath. And this bloody brilliant book of yours, Here One Moment, this is our Happy Place book club pick for November.

10:04I read it in about three days. I couldn't put it down. I couldn't stop thinking about it. It's just, I'm just so in awe of your writing and your characters and the plot. It's just the most brilliant. I love all of your books, but I really bloody love this. Now, the idea for this book came to you whilst you were actually sat on the tarmac waiting to take off on a plane. I'm always so fascinated, whether I'm talking to authors or musicians, how these ideas arrive. There's some sort of strange magic to it. It's not like you're sat there brainstorming. Often when a great song or a great book lands in your head, it feels quite otherworldly, like something's arrived out of your control.

10:51Talk to me about how this idea came to you. Well, firstly, thank you so much for choosing the book. I'm for the lovely things you've said about the book. Of course, I'm in the middle of writing a new one. So I'm still I need the approval. Thank you.

11:08So I was sitting. You're right. I was sitting on a plane and I'd just left Tasmania, which is the little island state at the bottom of Australia. And I'd had a week's writing, which meant that I'd been on my own for a week. And I do find, you know, I'm quite an introverted person, but when I've spent that long on my own, I do find myself turning into my mother in that I start talking to people in shops. So I can always remember on that trip, actually, that I bought some earrings and I wanted to chat so much to the woman behind the counter that I made up a whole story about how they were for my sister and she's allergic to certain types of earrings.

11:53And my sister, who's a lawyer, said I was contractually obliged to give her those earrings, which I did not. But that was my frame of mind. I think that I was sort of inward looking. and yeah I was on this flight and this is crucial to the story I did not have a book and so it was one of those times when you're all buckled in and then they keep saying okay just it'll be another 10 minutes another 10 minutes and people were starting to make phone calls to people back home cancelling things and then I was looking around at all the people and the thought came into my mind that every single passenger on this flight was going to one day die.

12:38And when I think back to that time, there are a few reasons why I think I had my mortality on my mind. There are a few things that happened. First of all, my sister was diagnosed with breast cancer. Then we lost our dad. Then we had the pandemic. And then I myself was diagnosed with breast cancer. And also, So I think just being in my 50s, it's a time in your life when people around you, every event we sit down and we start talking about all our ailments. That thought, when it came into my mind, I was thinking about the fact that one day, at some point in the future, that information would be available as to how each of us on that flight had died.

13:25So the age and cause of our death. So I guess 100 years from now, somebody would be able to look that up. And it sort of blew my mind that those were actual facts. There's just no doubt about that. Those were just facts that were not available yet. And that's when I thought, imagine if somebody stood up and started walking down the plane and shared those facts right now. Oh, my God. I mean, I love how the idea formed. but also the fact that you can explain the plot of the book essentially in that one sentence of imagining that woman standing up and pointing at people gives me goosebumps it's just so bloody brilliant and the subject of death is so interesting I'm writing my second novel at the moment and my first novel was quite light and I mean there was some sort of deeply important messaging to me in there, but it was, there was some humour and whatnot.

14:23But this new one, I've really honed in on death. I started writing it maybe a year ago and probably for a reason similar to the ones that you've described, death's been on my mind, you know, losing a friend and other reasons. And it is a really strange subject to write about. It's very confronting at times, You know, there's no escape for any of us with that one. It's deeply confronting and can be terrifying, but also just completely mind blowing. It's such a sort of abstract concept almost. It's such a strange topic to look at. Whilst you were writing the book or perhaps after you finished writing the book, did your thoughts around death change at all?

15:11Did you have a slightly different perspective of it post finishing the book? That's an interesting question. I think I went into it thinking that I could work something out, that I could find some answer to it, because it's exactly as you say, it's so abstract. And I started reading a lot of books about death. None of those really found their way into the book. a lot of research about how we respond if we're primed to think about death. Apparently, we spend more money if we think about death. So it helps capitalism. What's that about? Why do we do that? Why do we think, oh, shit, I'm going to die?

15:52I better buy some shoes. What's that about? I guess that's something I'm trying to remember now. See, that's all the sort of thing that I learned at the time. But then I realized that if you were told this is when you're going to die, then the first thing you'd think is, number one, I don't believe it. It's exactly the same if you got a terrible diagnosis. Then you go through those stages. So you'd say, I don't believe it. I want a second opinion. And then you'd do everything you can to fight it. So you'd say, I want to try any sort of clinical trial that there is. So I think then I started thinking more about fate and how I could control my own destiny.

16:39I don't know that I really did by the end of it think I certainly didn't come up with any answers. So I don't know that I changed. I expect that I still avoid thinking about it and still secretly think that it's not going to happen. Well, it's too big of a thing for us to land on and go, you just can't. Like when you start thinking, oh my God, someone's going to live in my house one day, like a hundred years. It's just, it's too much to cope with. It's too much to bear. I can't think about it. Okay, so let's talk about fate because this is another theme in the book that I just loved and I found it deeply interesting.

17:14We should probably explain for people that haven't read it so far that the protagonist, Cherry, is thought to be a psychic. I won't say too much more because I don't want to ruin anything, but it's thought to be psychic at the start of the book, having these ideas of how people on the flight are going to die and when. And also her own mother was a fortune teller. what were your thoughts going into the book about mediums or even okay I guess there's two topics there's the sort of medium psychic part of it but there's also the element of fate and destiny and whether I guess you think we're all just here bumbling along random things happening to us and it's completely out of our control and we're just sort of I don't know it's just a chaotic universe of people bumping into one another?

17:58Or do we have some sort of preordained path that we are walking down whether we like it or not? And have your thoughts changed on that since diving into it? Well, first of all, so as you say, there's so many parts to it. So with the psychics and the mediums, I'm a sceptic but I'm desperate to believe. So I would love, you know, I'd love if there was a medium that could put me in touch with my dad, but I would be very sceptical. I would not be one of those ones who the moment they said, oh, he loves you very much, that would not be enough. I'd want more. And the same with fortune tellers. People tell me stories and I love hearing those stories, but for me, I haven't found anybody who's impressed me.

18:50It was funny. I saw somebody and she said, your daughter, she likes the finer things in life. And she's 14 and she does very much like the finer things in life. Because she's on TikTok probably. Exactly. So she likes whatever TikTok tells her to like. Yeah. She likes all those designers that I don't even know. But when I told her, she said, oh, who doesn't like the finer things in life? So there's that. Then there's this idea of fate, which I think I've always thought, and I've really thought about a lot when I was writing this book. I think fate's a lovely thing to think about for good things.

19:33So it's really lovely for me to think I had to go through all the bad boyfriends to meet my lovely husband. And of course, I was always meant to be a writer. And thanks to my sister, who was published first. But that was always meant to happen and it could not have been any other way. But then when I think of people whose lives are cut short and who seem to have such bad luck sometimes when you can't believe the things that have happened to them, then I can't think that that was always meant to be their fate. It doesn't work for me anymore thinking that it was always ordained that this 10-year-old would die in this terrible way.

20:18I can't, I don't believe that. So I think it's probably as you began that it's all chaos. And I know a lot of people don't like to, they don't like to think that. And I think it's a natural inclination to try to find patterns and to try, and you may as well think that. Why not? And why not think that the lovely things are ordained? And when the bad things happen, you can do what you can to cope with those things. Exactly. And I love that in the book, you know, you forensically look at these subjects, but without applying your opinion or thoughts on any of it. I think you get to the end of the book and you think, oh, God, I'm none the wiser.

21:00I don't know if I've got an opinion or not. And I love that about the book. You don't come away going, that's it. I understand that we are destined to walk down this path or that, you know, that psychics definitely are right. You know, it's so brilliantly open ended and a brilliant conversation starter, which is why I'm also excited to have it as our book club pick, because I just think people are going to have so much to say on all of these topics and what it what it means to them and how it's perhaps shaped their life as well. So we've got Cherry, the protagonist, who we've mentioned already, who is the lady that stands up on the flight and has all of these ideas about how people are going to die and when.

21:38But then, of course, you've got these other key characters who are the beneficiary of such news. And they're really important characters. You've got all different types of people in there, from a flight attendant to a stressed out mother to a cool younger girl. Where did those characters come from? How do you, that seems like it needs more thought as to the kinds of stories that you want to tell alongside this bigger idea. How did they land in your head? Yeah, you'd think there would be more thought that went into that. But when I try to look back, I'm trying to think, where did they all, I mean, obviously you need, and because it's on a plane, you've got to have a variety of people.

22:22and I wanted all different ages and all different situations. But I honestly can't remember. And because I don't plan my books, I just started writing that scene where she stands up. So I must have had the very first character who responds to her, who's the civil engineer, the stressed out civil engineer. But I don't think then I knew any of the other characters. And I think maybe because he was sitting next to an older couple, I think probably they weren't meant to be important. They were just their minor characters in his life, which I always think is really interesting. You know, when you hear from somebody you haven't thought about for a long time and you think, but you were just a minor character in my life.

23:10What have you gone on? They've gone on living. We all think we're main characters. We're the star of the show. I'm just going to start with the show.

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25:21Looking at your previous ginormous success in terms of not only book sales, but also adaptations for TV. When you start writing a book, is that now in the back of your mind? Like this is probably going to be a huge TV show. And does that change how you write? No, it really doesn't. People think that it does. And I think people read it very much thinking that she's writing that way. But I've always had characters thinking one thing and then saying something else. I've always had a lot of introspection. I always say with Nine Perfect Strangers, there was one review that said she wrote it with one eye on the screen.

26:02but I had it was a silent retreat for days and days there wasn't a word of dialogue so I think if I started thinking about that then I would have to start putting in more dialogue so no the only tiny thing that just from seeing the actors and how they inhabit the roles and I really noticed how they build roles the same way that that we as authors we look around and we notice things about people in our lives and we take little bits and pieces, I noticed that they do the same thing. But one thing they have to do is really think about certain gestures. So they've got to create a walk. And I always remember Meryl Streep in Big Little Lies, she was wearing a crucifix and she kept on tapping it to her lip.

26:50And I was thinking, oh, she probably saw somebody doing that. And so one little thing that I've done is just because I often write down little things to remind myself and I just write down the word gestures as in don't forget that's another way to help build a character. Oh, I like that. I might be stealing that. I like that a lot. You can have it. Thank you so much. Do you worry about that then? And so, you know, because it's very clear that with all of your characters, we do feel like we're in their heads. We're not just experiencing them in a dynamic where it's all about the dialogue and how they're moving.

27:25We're very much in their psyche. Do you worry with those adaptations for TV that that won't translate in the way that you desire? Or is there just a moment where you've just got to let go and it is what it is? Yes, exactly. It is what it is. And I've done that from the beginning because I think if I started to hold on, then I'd want to hold on to everything. And I'd want to say, no, you've got to say it like this. You've got to look like this. And so I made a conscious decision to let go. And I think some of them, they read the book and they maybe take, they use it as part of their preparation.

28:08And some actors, I think, say they don't want to read the book. they want to only do the script and the character becomes something entirely different. So I think it's another medium. Oh, that's the other thing I always think that's really interesting is that people often come up to me at events and they say something about the book and they get it a tiny bit wrong. And I know because I wrote the book, but there's something that's just, you know they might describe a beach and I think no I never said that but I've come to realize that it's something from their own imagination so when they're reading the beach scene they're seeing a beach from their own childhood so therefore every single reader has their own little adaptation going on in their head so it's my imagination and their imagination so therefore every actor that comes in, there's all their own experiences that are coming in and there's the director and there's, it's not meant to be somebody somehow taking something that was in my head and literally putting it on the screen.

29:19I can sometimes see where they've tried too hard to be faithful. And I think, oh, I can imagine this came from the book and it would have worked really well in the book. But as a viewer, I'm thinking, why have we gone off on this weird little tangent? It's not working now. It is so interesting. I think this is why I just love books so much is that you do have that autonomy as a reader to create your own version of that world. And I very often find myself, you know, I could be reading a scene in any fiction. And for some reason, I'll always go back to one of my friend's houses in childhood in the little town that I grew up in.

29:57And I end up in Lucy's mum and dad's kitchen. And I'm like, why am I thinking of that kitchen? And it's so strange how you conflate it with your own history and your own ideas. And I love that about reading. It's just sort of it's just it's endless imagination. On that note, you know, I wrote a lot of nonfiction before I started writing fiction. And I did hit a bit of a wall where, you know, I don't like to plan my books too much either in terms of what I must in the next two years write a book about this subject. You know, usually something happens in my life and I think, God, that was fucking awful.

30:31Let me write about it or whatever or something brilliant. But I did hit a bit of a wall and I'm still in that space, hence why I'm now exploring fiction, which seems to be more endless in terms of I'm just having ideas constantly and observing what's going on around me. but I do wonder do you ever fear after writing something as sensational as this book well all of your books that there won't be another idea that another story won't form in quite that way that means you're that motivated to start that climb up a massive mountain of writing a novel because I think it's such a long process it can be utterly laborious you know once you've started you've got to continue because otherwise you've wasted months on nothing.

31:17Do you ever worry that that motivation or that idea just won't land in the future? Well, in a way, I think because sometimes when I've looked at reader responses, I have seen people said that I peaked with big little eyes. That's bollocks. But do you know what I mean? So therefore, and The Husband's Secret. And a few people have said that. And so therefore, I feel like that actually has happened, that it won't be as... Because I think a lot of people really liked the thriller side of those books. And because I'm not the person I was back then, so maybe I can never write that sort of book again.

32:05Stephen King was saying something that I was reading where he was saying, but now I can't remember so I shouldn't go off on this tangent. I'm not about anything interesting. He said something. He said something. Stephen King said something. It was something about I think it was just about how you have some readers who like some of your books and not the others and that people have said to him oh it's never been as good as such and such. So I think I've come to accept that it's not the end of the world when people will say that people will definitely tell me, oh, I didn't like that one. And yeah, it's never been as good as such and such.

32:48I think the motivation has to come because there's always this wonderful point when I'm about a third of the way through writing a book where it's just absolute pleasure. and also there's also this weird thing which I'm at the moment where I think well nobody can I mean you're saying lovely things but not everybody said lovely things and so I'm at the point where I think well nobody can hurt me now because it's all out there the nice things have been said the mean things have been said now I can just write again and that's the best bit yeah I think you know with anything that anyone does certainly creatively I think your motivation has to be it's because I'm loving the process because the rest is out of our hands and I guess the tricky thing for you having had such major success is the benchmark is so high but you know I mean there's so many things I could say one is I just think the the world now you know people are so used to thinking they can critique things they they don't really know anything about from you know in terms of skill set needed or or any of it it's just so easy to have an opinion and put it out there and and I think sometimes writers artists actors whoever feel almost forced to take on feedback that's kind of irrelevant because it's just someone probably having a bit of a shit day and channeling something into something that's not related to their own lives I don't know you're one of those authors for me that I know that because I love the style the pace that you that you use in your book so I'll read anything that that you write in a similar way to Taylor Jenkins read when people give her shit about certain books I'm like I love all of them for me there's no peak it's just they're all an absolute joy and for me this one was just such an amazing sense of escapism but also as a you know I find I'm troubled by saying that I'm a writer even though I've written lots of books but I still feel like a fucking fraud but anyway as a writer I I learn so much when I'm reading your books about what the rules are and what they don't have to be and that you don't have to I don't know I found this book particularly pacey and that taught me a lot about yeah just get to the fucking thing like what's happened what's the next thing and where are we going with this and you know so I'm I'm here to massively big you up without any other commentary I just loved it and I love all your books and I think you're just bloody amazing oh well you're wonderful and I think you're right that there there's a certain core group of readers and I've come to realize that who will stay with me to the end yeah and maybe yeah maybe a lot of the thrillers as I'm writing different sorts of books and I think I'll keep going and yeah certain readers will will stay with me and it doesn't matter I think it'd be so boring if every successful author stuck to exactly what their original offering was I I think it'd be boring for you it'd be boring for the reader like just I don't know I just think push the boundaries and do do the thing that feels right and oh well I just love this book I loved it so much and um It is just the perfect source of escapism and great storytelling.

36:11And just thank you so much for writing it and for chatting to me today. It's been an absolute privilege. Oh, thank you. Thank you so much. It's been like a little therapy session for me to get back to my work. Thank you. Yes, get back to that next book. I will. And you are a writer. You definitely are. Don't feel fraudulent at all. oh leon leon well if you're telling me not to feel fraudulent about calling myself a writer maybe i'll get on board with that i still find it so hard i've written 15 books i still can't say it anyway i'll get over it it's because i didn't go to uni i'm all insecure blah blah blah here one moment was a happy place recommended read for november and if you follow at happy place book club on instagram you'll find lots of extra content and discussions about that book and loads of other recommendations too.

37:05Do you want to start reading along with us every month? Please do. December's book is called She Speaks and it's by Dame Harriet Walter. Now she has played so many of Shakespeare's female characters in her acting career. So with this book, she's reading between the lines and re-imagining what some of them might actually be saying. It's bloody fascinating. I'll be chatting to Harriet on the podcast in a couple of weeks, so do listen out for that episode. for now though a huge thank you again to Lian to the producer Anushka Tate at Happy Play Studios and to you because you're brilliant

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