Book Club Meets: Fertility pressures, medical racism, and hen parties, with Candice Carty-Williams

0:00Fearne Cotton: So, I'm Dr Ashok and this is Tatiana. Welcome to the Happy Place Book Club with me, Fern Cotton. Who looked bored out of her mind as he tapped efficiently onto the iPad screen. Today, Queenie is working on it by Candice Carty-Williams. I specifically booked for Dr Hussein. Yes, however he's been pulled away today, Dr Ashok smiled. But you'll be in good hands with us. Tatiana will be observing if that's okay. Well, she's already seen everything, so sure. I glanced sideways at Tatiana, who raised her eyebrows back at me. I unlocked my phone and opened the Voice Memos app, moving it over so that anything either of them said would be recorded.

0:43Fearne Cotton: So, you're here for the... standard fertility check-up. Dr Ashok put the iPad down and snapped on a pair of blue latex gloves. Yes, I lied. Well, was it a lie? I was there for a check-up, yes, but technically I was there because I was building a piece on the treatment of black women from attempt to conceive to labour by way of aftercare. And this was, allegedly, one of the highest rated clinics on Mumsnet. However, it was the clinic I'd seen most black women complain about. Great. Well, if you can relax for me, we'll get going. He removed the probe from its holder and sheathed it with a condom specific to its purposes.

1:28Fearne Cotton: Tatiana, if you wouldn't mind taking the specifics down for me. Ah, Pasante. I smiled, nodding towards it like it was an old friend. I didn't realise they did condoms for anything other than penises. Yes. Dr Ashok blinked back at me. I hadn't found myself a fun one. They do. This month we've been reading Queenie is Working On It by Candice Carty-Williams. Yes! I love this book. This is the much-anticipated follow-up to 2019's Queenie. This time, Queenie Jenkins is questioning whether she wants kids. She's being priced out of the housing market in the place she grew up and she's coping with horrible heartbreak too.

2:16Fearne Cotton: I love this book. it was just like perfect escapism. I was going through some stressful things in my life and this book was just a welcome break at night time or I had like a little mini break at one point and I read all morning and why I love this book is not only is it wonderful to catch up with a much-loved character Queenie because I love the first book but the other characters were so real. I mentioned this in the chat. I kept thinking I was going to bump into some of them out and about. I can fully picture them all now. I could picture her flat. I could picture TFL man. Like all of it was so clear to me.

2:51Fearne Cotton: So it's so easy to dip in and out of this world that Candice has so cleverly created. I just loved it. Candice and I had this chat at the Happy Place Festival a couple of weeks ago and we covered so many topics. Medical racism and fertility were big and important ones, as well as why, I'm sorry, but hemp parties are the absolute pits. Are you tired of living in pain, going to the doctor, and left feeling completely dismissed and alone? Ever wondered whether anyone else lives the way that you live? They do, and I do. I'm Lindsay Soprano, and this is Giving Pain Purpose. Every week, I sit down with people who've walked through chronic pain and trauma and come out on the other side and talk about how they do it.

3:37You don't have to do this alone. Find Giving Pain Purpose wherever you get your podcast.

3:45Hello, I'm Monica Reinagle, host of the Nutrition Diva podcast. Summer is here and with it, the hot and sticky weather.

3:52Fearne Cotton: A morning working in the garden or maybe on the golf course can leave you more depleted than you realize. And plain water isn't always the most efficient way to restore the balance. That's where liquid IV comes in. Its science-backed formula is clinically proven to hydrate faster than water alone. Whether you're exercising, playing outside, or simply surviving a summer heat wave, it's an easy way to stay hydrated. Shop now at liquidiv.com. Liquid IV, hydration that goes wherever life takes you. Brought to you by the Capital One Saver Card. With Saver, you earn unlimited 3 % cash back on dining, entertainment, and at grocery stores.

4:31Fearne Cotton: That's unlimited cash back on ordering takeout from home or unlimited cash back on tickets to concerts and games. So grab a bite, grab a seat and earn unlimited 3 % cash back with the saver card. Capital One. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com for details.

4:53Fearne Cotton: Right, let's do it. This is the show.

5:17Fearne Cotton: welcome welcome to the festival thank you thank you for having me thank you it's so lovely to have you here and as you well know i love both of your books but this i devoured in three days it is it's just so brilliant so first of all massive congratulations thank you so much thank Thank you. How is it having this book out in the wild now? Because, you know, it's such an insular thing to work on a book and to be involved in that world and to have this character return. And now it's everybody else's story. How does that feel? It feels fine. It feels great. It feels very nice. I've done this a few times now.

5:53So it just feels like, OK, we've done this. What's next? I'm like Rihanna in that way. I get a bit bored when the project is wrapping up. Like I have done it. Yeah. But it's really exciting. And actually, I get lots of people who love reading. and get like they come and tell me and they see me in the street which is weird because authors never get recognized but for some reason I do so I get recognized people come and tell me they love my work and it's really nice.

6:13Fearne Cotton: That's the best I love that I love this return to Queenie's world and we're catching up with Queenie a little bit later on down the line she's in her early to mid 30s so she's got a lot going on anyone who is in the 30s now or we've done the 30s we're in the next chapter. The 30s is a very interesting decade and it's a decade that comes with pressure, societal pressure, pressure from your peers and your inner circle. There's lots going on. What felt important for you to include in Queenie's 30s in this book? I think I tried to put everything I possibly could in there. I wanted to get to 30s first so I wrote Queenie when I was 26, 27.

7:00And I thought, okay, if I do a seat course, you'll have to be a bit further on. And I want to get there first and experience it. So I did some of my 30s. And I wanted to kind of talk about what it felt like to not approach it and be scared a bit, but to be in there and to start thinking about what all of your timelines are meant to be. And the timelines that people, like my family, kept telling me my timeline should have been and what it feels like. Yeah.

7:23Fearne Cotton: I mean, it is something that most women go through is that pressure, whether it's people just asking slightly irritating questions or things that you don't want to talk about. It is a sort of a confronting era. And one of the things that Queenie is dealing with in this book is fertility. And that is, again, something that all women would have faced in some form in their 30s, whether it's people asking questions or thoughts in your own head or the want to start a family. it's a really big topic did you feel I don't know overwhelmed approaching that with with Queenie I think I wanted to just approach it in a way that meant that I could put as many facts in as I could like for everything and for everyone to read and understand so I did a lot of research first I approached it almost like a research project and then I kind of wove it into what the story would be and what the story could be so I didn't feel overwhelmed I felt almost like it was like a duty to inform so there are lots of facts about fertility and they're all sort of couched in like funny stories or tips but all of them are real every single every single fact is real yeah I love that and it is and I know you've talked about this before but fiction is a brilliant way to tackle subjects that need turning over exposing us to sort of dig around in and one of them was medical racism which is a huge topic and one that doesn't get covered in fiction that often at all so how was that to kind of weave into the story did it feel obviously felt urgently needed because it is but how did you find weaving it into the story I think I just knew it was an important thing to talk about and I thought okay well what's next like what are we saying after that and I thought if I can actually interrogate what that means and also what comes before that we can really do something here so it's telling a story but also it's a warning and also I guess it's a question like what are we going to do next so yeah it felt like it was really necessary it always feels I guess in my work it's always going to be politicized just because I'm a black woman who's writing in a largely white space um so I just thought we have to just lean into that now I can't be I can't be afraid of it no I thought you did it impeccably because it it it didn't deter from the storyline at all you're so in Queenie's head and watching her navigate all of these thoughts and feelings that were happening within her friendship group within her working life but equally it was just highlighting things that we all need to understand better and know about better and then think well what is the action how can we collectively do something about this and when you were doing your research and having sort of read a couple of articles that you've done more recently when you look into medical racism the the reasons are unbelievably flimsy and even that seems like a sort of I don't know a reductive way of saying it because the reasons are things like beliefs around biological pain and cultural incompetence there's there's nothing there's no substance there to back up any of the reasons why black women end up getting treated differently I remember my sister is 28 now and she had a baby five years ago and I went to kind of be her advocate because I knew that she wouldn't be looked after.

10:43And the ways that she was treated as a young black woman, they informed this so much. I just couldn't believe what I was seeing. And I was asking reasons why they were doing certain things or talking to her in certain ways. And nobody had an answer for me. And I just thought we all need to get a lot better at this. So again, I can only ever do so much. And I feel like if I put it in the work, then maybe we could take some notice.

11:05Fearne Cotton: Oh my God, without a doubt. I think I love seeing activism pop up in lots of different ways. It doesn't have to be the obvious way, an overt way. It can be beautifully woven into a story where it actually probably sticks in your head more so. Because certainly when you love a character and you love a world in fiction, it's such a beautiful way of learning and wanting to help with the change or see change or at least try and understand the subject better. So I thought you did it so beautifully. I DMed you on Instagram not long ago because, again, what I love about your writing is your characters are so real.

11:41Fearne Cotton: When I was reading it, I kept thinking I was going to bump into one of them when I was out and about. They're just so vivid and there. One of them being TFL guy. He is, okay, some people have read the book and they're like, I know him. He's a character that I was just like, I can picture this person. I can absolutely imagine them. When you're initially starting out with, okay, I know what the themes are. I know roughly where I went the story to go. Where do these characters come from? Are they drawn from your own experience? Are they completely fantastical? Where do they come from? I think they're just people that I've sort of seen in and around the world.

12:20So they're never like person for person for legal reasons, but also generally. But they're always just like amalgams of people that I've met and that I've spoken to. And I spend so much of my time listening to people. I'm kind of obsessed with listening to people and learning about them. And so actually characterization is really easy for me. It's like my favorite thing. and I think well I know that I focus on character more than I do on plot plot kind of for me is like a side quest I just want to know what journey the character is going on that's the most important thing so yeah I just um I really want characters to feel real because I want the story to feel relatable I want people to think oh this could be someone that I know or this could be someone that I've met but also star signs are very important to me too so every single character has their star sign and that helps me to figure out who they are I love that what star sign are

13:04Fearne Cotton: you cancerian and do you feel like you're a typical cancerian is that yeah but very shy this is this is hard but it's really nice oh it's great we're my dad's a cancer right i know i know cancers yeah i'll cry afterwards like yeah yeah yeah it's fine oh i'm a virgo so i'll like make some notes about it while you're crying and then like hug you after yeah it's absolutely i'm very typical virgo like i have a notepad for fuck's sake yeah um no i love that when you're that whole character process I'm really fascinated by and how each author will go about their process very differently are those characters so cemented that they just live in your head or are you writing down a little profile about each of them that you can you can go back to whilst you're writing the story I've got like things that characters like and don't like just as a benchmark but I think for me because I had all the characters in Queenie I just had to think about people in this one that would fit into her world and so it was really nice to draw on new characters that maybe I've worked with or maybe I've experienced over the last like few years of of like living life and working and doing things so yeah it's all about the world I think and I guess I've like written and drafted in some characters I'm like you don't quite work here you know like it's it just I think I can it's like an it's an instinctive thing that's so interesting about um you need to like go off and live life obviously to get inspired and I'm imagining there was a pressure from your publishers after the success of Queenie like we want another one we want more Queenie but equally I'm sure there's excitement like yeah I want to go back into Queenie's world and see where she goes next but you do need to go off and do like very normal things and and get some life lived Did you feel that pressure and how did you make space to then just go and live your life?

14:54I don't know. I was working. So I was doing TV. So I did like a sort of like book stuff. And then I thought, OK, I can rest now. Like I've done I've done enough. And everyone was like, no, you haven't. You have to make a TV show and make another TV show. So I went and did that. But I was still trying to live life around it. And I should keep my life like quite small. So it's really nice and easy. I'm not very outside. I like to be inside on my sofa watching music videos. That really is what I'll be doing. Yeah, I love that. A lot of people like that too, I can tell. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, yeah, but I think, like I said, so much of it is people and I have amazing friendships and I think I spend my time, I guess, nourishing myself through those.

15:29Yeah. And that's really important, especially when you're locked away writing all the time. But you do have to live to experience. But I also think when you write, you have to listen. You have to listen to people and also you have to read. That's the important thing too.

15:42Fearne Cotton: Yeah. And can you read whilst you're writing or is that too distracting? Because you read someone else's fiction. No, I can't read anyone else's fiction. I can read nonfiction. And I love nonfiction because sometimes nonfiction is just as, I mean, it's just sometimes as brilliant as a fictional story. But yeah, I tend towards, yeah, I stay very far away just in case I end up writing like Sally Rooney's characters or something. Yeah, I can sit you all because they live in your head when you're into a fiction. It takes over. I can see how that'd be massively distracting. you mentioned there your own friendships obviously Queenie's friendship group is incredibly important and also laugh out loud funny I love the fact that you've just constantly got these text messages going on between the corgis they're all chatting to each other and calling each other out in a really brilliant honest way that only that sort of sisterhood gives you where you can be so blunt and honest with your friends I'm imagining that that felt like a very important part of this chapter of Queenie's life.

16:40It did and I feel like in your 20s you can have friendships where you're kind of just going along with things and also you're getting to know people and getting to know yourself but by your 30s accountability starts to come into play I think and I think it's really good to have friends around you who can call you out but also just question what your motivations are and it was really important for this. Queenie obviously is on her journey and she's kind of got a strand of her fertility journey which is like good and researching and a strand that is not so good which she should interrogate quite a lot and her friends are the ones who love her enough to want her to do that and I think writing friendship love is always going to be more important to me than anything else yeah I mean you can tell in the book it's such

17:20Fearne Cotton: an important part of who she is and how she's learning and I love the bit where she's got like a little graph of all the different men and she's looking at sex grid so sex grid let's put it out there that's what it's called it's a sex grid yeah and she's looking at the stats of these men and if they're if they qualify or not and it changes throughout the book it's it's so brilliant yeah the the the female friendship thing I think is never to be underestimated and so often we see female characters whether it's in films tvs books and it's all about like the whole thing is the romance with the man and actually for me this was about it was female friendship and like you say having the accountability calling each other out and making sure that you know there was honesty in that friendship and that is something that you grow into another really important bit of growth for Queenie from the first book to the second is her own self-compassion which seems to definitely be something that she's aware of in her 30s and I wonder for you because obviously we always put a bit of ourselves in our writing if that was something in your 30s that you thought about like am I being kind to myself am I looking after myself well I think your inner voice just gets more confident as you get more confident and my inner voice in my 20s I guess was really harsh on myself as we all are um and then I guess you have external voices when people start reading your work and you have to work very hard to block those out too and just make sure that you're on kind of the the mental path that you're on uh but I've always I mean I go to therapy I'm very therapize like that's that's like right like that's why I can like sort of like get out of bed in the oh no same yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah um and so I think even even doing that as a thing you still you know your therapist still catches the things that you say to yourself and I remember thinking you do have to start liking yourself at some point because if you don't then you don't like anyone else enough yeah and I think I wanted to put that across too and also make sure that Queenie was giving herself the patience that I started to be able to give myself to not always get everything right and indeed be like working on things I think we are all working on things forever forever and I think the sooner we realize it and be kind to ourselves while we do it the better yeah that's the good and the bad news because I think certainly in like the wellness space which slightly sometimes irks me we're kind of doing that here but I want to make sure that happy places I don't know not a prescriptive thing it's like you find your thing and and you work it out and you work out what makes you feel good and like yourself but it is it's like every day forever and no one really wants to hear that because we want oh tell me five tips and then I'm fixed and actually it's every day forever you've got to get up and have like be accountable look at yourself look at you know the the flaws that you know you have and accept them rather and keep trying to fix yourself the whole time.

20:19Fearne Cotton: And I think, and I don't know how you feel about this because you're obviously a lot closer to Queenie, but I feel like people love this character because she's got flaws. She's not this person who's seamlessly moving through her friendship groups, her relationships, her working life. She's sort of stumbling over things and learning as she goes and she's not always getting it right. Do you think that's why she's lovable? I think so. I think people see themselves in her. And when I do talks or even when I get DMs, it's people saying you basically wrote my 20s in the first novel and some people already have started to say I can see myself so much of her so much of myself in her in my 30s and that's an amazing thing because as I said I really wanted to be relatable but I also realized all the things that I enjoyed all the characters that I've loved growing up none of those characters have been perfect I mean like when you go out watching Carrie Bradshaw you can't then write like a perfect woman and think that that's like a real thing or anything normal um I just wanted it to also be interesting you have to send people on a journey and like I say I think about the character arc more than I would ever think about the story arc you know like everyone has to go through something and as you say like still continues to go through it so there'll be a queenie in her 40s and her 50s yes you know please can there be a menopausal queenie please that's what we need like she's just having all the hot flashes and freaking out about everything we need that yeah and you loved back in the day Bridget Jones that was something that was inspiring to you yeah yeah I did I did so I remember um when I was asked about this I was asked when I was first writing it what I wanted it to be and I said I want it to be like the scale of Bridget Jones I want it to be a black Bridget Jones I want it to be in everyone's house like that's really important to me because I love that book and I remember finding Bridget Jones's diary in my aunt's house when I was 12 and like reading it on the landing like as soon as I opened it I was like this is the best thing ever and that's why her best friend is called Darcy in the first in the first one because it's like a love letter and a thank you but also about the love of a female friend rather than a you know like a male suitor I love that it's also a bit of a love letter to London or to South London that that's really prevalent throughout the book you really feel like you're there I imagine that was quite a fun and an easy part to write that sort of love letter to London yeah it was I mean it It was easy in the sense that I know so much of South London, but I also recognised and still recognised how much of it is changing.

22:45And so I think in the first novel in particular, I was basically trying to archive the places that I knew would be gone by the time it came out and the places that no longer exist. So there were like three big landmark places in the book that do not exist anymore, you know, like six years later. And so, yeah, I tried to archive the places that I know.

23:04Fearne Cotton: I love that. It's like a little London time capsule. Yeah. It's so gorgeous. Are you tired of living in pain, going to the doctor, and left feeling completely dismissed and alone? Ever wondered whether anyone else lives the way that you live? They do, and I do. I'm Lindsay Soprano, and this is Giving Pain Purpose. Every week, I sit down with people who've walked through chronic pain and trauma and come out on the other side and talk about how they do it. You don't have to do this alone. Find Giving Pain Purpose wherever you get your podcast.

23:41Hello, I'm Monica Reinagle, host of the Nutrition Diva podcast.

23:45Fearne Cotton: Summer is here and with it, the hot and sticky weather. A morning working in the garden or maybe on the golf course can leave you more depleted than you realize. And plain water isn't always the most efficient way to restore the balance. That's where liquid IV comes in. Its science-backed formula is clinically proven to hydrate faster than water alone. Whether you're exercising, playing outside, or simply surviving a summer heat wave, it's an easy way to stay hydrated. Shop now at liquidiv.com. Liquid IV, hydration that goes wherever life takes you. Brought to you by the Capital One Saver Card.

24:20Fearne Cotton: With Saver, you earn unlimited 3 % cash back on dining, entertainment, and at grocery stores. That's unlimited cash back on ordering takeout from home or unlimited cash back on tickets to concerts and games. So grab a bite, grab a seat, and earn unlimited 3 % cash back with the Saver Card. Capital One. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com for details. Insurance isn't one size fits all. That's why drivers have enjoyed Progressive's Name Your Price tool for years now. With the Name Your Price tool, you tell them what you want to pay, and they'll show you options that fit your budget.

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25:19Fearne Cotton: Also in this book, we've got a wedding. And I am mad for any book or film. Like one of my favorites is still for weddings and a funeral. I just love being in fiction at a wedding. It's the best. And a hen, like an awful hen. and I hate hens. I know. Why are hens so awful? This is the worst one ever, I think. The worst. Yeah. They're so shit. I hate them. I've tried and dodged them, like, massively. But I've been to so many bad ones. The one was on a canal boat, and we were all, like, we all had sashes and, like, willy straws. And I'm like, what are we doing? I've done exactly the same thing. It might be the same canal boat.

25:57It might be the same canal boat.

25:59Fearne Cotton: Yeah. Why am I on a canal drinking a little willy? What am I doing? And you can't leave. And you can't leave. You're trapped in a boat. You can't get off. They're so awful. Yeah. Thank you for writing that. You're so welcome. It's so great. And also the wedding. Just the chaos of a wedding is just such a great climax of a book. Did you love writing that bit? I did. I really loved writing it. But also it's about, I guess, Queenie at a wedding. And she really wanted to go with TFR Man. But obviously, like, I mean, he's called TFR Man. He's obviously let her down. He hasn't turned up. He doesn't have a real name, obviously.

26:32He doesn't deserve one. No, he doesn't. And she takes her best friend with her. And it is the fun that you do have with best friends. The fun that you find at a wedding when you're like, no, this isn't for me. This isn't my bag. This isn't. No. Yeah.

26:44Fearne Cotton: It's so brilliant. And I'm really interested in your process as a whole. There was a picture of you. I think it was on Instagram. In your office, which is the most aesthetically pleasing place I've ever seen. There's a color palette. you've got giant post-its on the wall it is so neat it's actually very virgo this whole space talk to us about this space and and how you work in that space as it's just a it's a pink room it's just like a little pink room and all of the color coding is behind me but it's kind of fake because i don't look at it it's just a it's to look good basically so when people come in they're like she's working really hard um so yeah but i have a really nice office but i do make it like a nice and like gentle space it's like a nice big surface so I can like be comfortable um and I think it's nice to take myself away from my house because I used to write just like in bed which is like comfortable but also it's just like you would just fall asleep um and there are deadlines so you can't do that so no I do I try to cultivate like a really nice and bright space so that I feel excited by doing work because like I said it's very solitary you're doing a hundred thousand words of like writing by yourself so you need to do things you have to have things like wake you up almost and what's your what's your time of day when when do you feel like the cogs are just turning and everything's flowing yeah i'm i'm still asleep so right now so probably like 3 p.m really yeah yeah yeah so i like yeah so i think my brain turns on at about 12 so if you see me at 12 come and say hi you'll be line dancing in the happy hub yeah yeah yeah um but yeah no i think i get to my office about three and then i start about about 3 p.m and then but I'd go until maybe like nighttime.

28:23So I'm just a late, I'm on the late shift. We are the opposite.

28:28Fearne Cotton: I am firing all cylinders at 7am and by 8am it's downhill from there. Catch me at 7pm, void of any personality. I haven't, it's gone. I've died. I can't do it. Yeah, I see 7am and I'm going to sleep. Wow. I'll message you. Yeah, please do. Because I'm going to be like, wow, like absolutely firing. but I think you have to know that about yourself and lean into it because I used to think no I should be more of a night owl and like be a party animal whatever and it's not it's not in me I need to be in bed mega mega early yeah I'm not a nine-to-five I tried it I did it for many years and I don't know how I kept my job but uh I did and that's why I probably write uh for myself yeah I love that do you need to balance out because it is so solitary writing and you have to be so focused it's such a weird process going right I'm gonna write a book it needs to be a hundred thousand words and you're at the foot of a mountain and there's no way around it you've just got to get the words on a page and it can feel very daunting when you start it can feel very daunting halfway through I've currently got two half finished books on my laptop that make me want to vomit I can't even think about them and I've reached that point where I'm like I'm going to probably bin them both because it's too overwhelming it's just you know that feeling it's too it's too much do you and it's not even writer's block it's like I just can't be dealing with it what do you do if you if you come up against that feeling of oh my god this is all too much I don't even know how I'm going to finish this book so I've had this and I would I've had this a lot but I would say that my self-care in those moments is to talk about it so actually like telling your friends about it is one thing but also I speak to my editor and I would just say this is where I am and this is what I can't do right now and I think just talking about it and having someone who is kind of like in charge understand it that takes a lot of the pressure off it's like telling the teacher like I don't know how to do this do this thing yeah and they say like it's okay you can just like come back to it you're like oh okay yes and then you give yourself permission just to like calm down a bit and just take your time but I would say with all things it's about taking time and I think that we're in a culture now where everything feels like we have to rush constantly yeah and I don't think you get the best results when you do so my thing is always just I just I really do take my time with things even if it might like put someone's nose out of joint a little bit uh I do think it's it's always better in the end yeah I mean to look after your brain you can't rush that you can't it's something and you're so right I think culturally we are just taught like everything has to be fast paced what's next what how are we going to get to the end of this and actually as a reader you don't want to feel like you're rushed for a book you want to feel like you're you get to know the character you get to know the world that they're in so it's really important for you as a writer to be in that frame of mind but you do have to constantly self-motivate you know you don't have someone going come on like get writing you've just gotta do it like there's no again trick you just have to open the laptop and just start yeah you just have to give yourself rewards like oh right yeah yeah you have to like treat yourself and be like at the end of this i will have a massive glass of wine absolutely yeah if that's your thing yeah that is my thing yeah that's what i'm doing tonight we're at a dry festival so there's no booze here which is excellent but that doesn't count when you get home yeah so like in the car back or in the car not while i'm driving obviously no um yeah no it's i think the reward system is yes it's very important do you get that sort of feeling when you fold it and you're like i'm done where you can just have that deep sigh of relief?

32:09I think so. I think so. But then, you know, there's like an editing process and there are things you do and someone comes and says, here are all the terrible things about this novel that you need to get rid of by next week. But I do think when you do hand things in, there is like, you must have this too. There's like a, at least there's like a small sense of accomplishment that lasts for like an hour. It's an hour. And it's nice to just like sit in that and just enjoy it and remember it because it won't come back for another like three years.

32:33Fearne Cotton: It's so short-lived. And then, like you say, there is this brutal part. And I remember the first time I wrote a book, getting editorial notes back. I was like, what? I couldn't believe it. It was so humbling. And now I'm like, yeah, of course. I'm clicking on that tab, looking at the note, rectifying a part of the book. And it always makes it better. But you do have to sort of take the emotion out of it completely to know that all of those notes are helping you refine the book and get it to the best kind of copy it can be. How have you found that process over the years? I really like it because I think, how can I use this to make it the best it can be?

33:11And I think that the person who, I mean, it's like a process, obviously, but I think the person who's working on it, they also want it to be the best it can be. And so when you think of it as like a partnership rather than someone telling you what to do, it feels much nicer. And also it feels like somebody cares. Yes. I would be really worried. And I think you would too, if someone was like, no, it's perfect for, we'll publish it. I'd be like, no, no, no, no, no. Don't do that. don't do that no so yeah I think I think it's a really good part of the process and I think you know sometimes it's like this it's an ego thing it's like just get rid of it you know get

33:40Fearne Cotton: rid yeah you can't have an ego when you're writing a book no way there'll be plenty of people here today and I'm sure they'll talk to you at the book signing or talk to you around the festival today who want to write a book have got a story to tell whether it's fiction non-fiction it's obviously and it's a really hard thing if we're frank and honest to get a book published there's no easy route to do it what advice would you give to someone who's thinking I just want to get those words on on a page I think really just get them on the page is the thing I make so many people who who say I've got the first three chapters and I'm waiting to like talk to someone I think just do it because I think the process of writing can be sometimes the most rewarding thing and I would say also when you're a debut that will be the only time you really get for it to be you in the work because as soon as you publish one thing odds are the next thing that you publish will be I guess it's not your thing anymore it turns into like the work rather than like the joy and I remember writing the first Queenie and you just I had no idea that anything would happen with it I just thought if I just write it for myself at least I've written it and I've got some things out of my system and then yeah it turns into like a when is this going to happen what are we going to talk about now we need to have a meeting and you're like oh okay this is not fun anymore this is work now this is real so i would say i would just say like enjoy that enjoy the first draft but also do do it i think do get it done because actually someone might come and say oh yeah actually no we do want that can i have a look at it because there are so many agents that you can reach out and talk to who are looking for certain things so yeah just have it ready do you still write just for you because you're so right once you turn a passion and there are plenty of people here today who are who have got brands in the shedding units in the shopping area who do something they're deeply passionate about yeah but there is a moment where it clicks over to and this is also hard work and the two can exist but sometimes it is still important to do something just for you do you do you make time for that i do i make sure like journaling is like a i don't do that because i think i'd be scared someone would find them yes um i burned all mine once i and uh yeah all of them yeah yeah i should do the same do it and so yeah i try to avoid doing that but I think that writing just little things I draw like quite a lot like if I like want to like I want to visualize things I draw them and I could do like a little drawing vision board because it feels like a different I love that a different way of like using your brain as like a manifesting thing yeah yeah exactly try it it's nice yeah it's a nice way of doing it sometimes it feels sometimes with manifesting I've got a bit of a problem with manifesting sometimes I think who am I to say I know what I want that sounds mad but I think sometimes we're like I want this to happen and actually that isn't the best thing for you and sometimes it's the surprise moments in life that are the ones that have given me the most or they've been so unexpected I couldn't have dreamed them up if I tried so I feel a bit funny about being exact and maybe a drawing is a a kind of maybe more yeah you know it's a good way it's like a vagal way of like I'm just gonna draw a little happy face actually so I can't like to feel happy thank you very much and just not something so specific yeah but i also do think that hope is a really important thing and i always think so i support arsenal and um like jordan over there um and i would oh hi hi jordan um and uh i would always think okay well what's gonna you know that we everyone kept being like oh yeah we might not might not win the league and i was like but we might as well just hope that we do because i thought there's nothing to lose by like hoping you know and then we won and like it's not down to me but I know that in any way, shape or form, but I know that when it happened, I was like, well, you know, if we'd lost, the hope didn't kill me.

37:19Did you draw like people playing football in your notepad? Drew Arteta, just smiling all the time. I love that.

37:27Fearne Cotton: I think that's really, really good advice because there'll be so many people today that will come up to you saying, that's my dream, that's what I want to do. How do I get going with it? And I think hope is a really key ingredient for any mission or goal that you're on. If you don't have a glimmer of hope about your own capabilities, your own dreams, no one else is going to do that for you. And especially with writing, it is kind of it's you, you know, it's not a whole team of people. You've got to you've got to have that belief in yourself. Is that something that you've cultivated over the years?

38:03Fearne Cotton: Like with age, that is an easier thing to feel hopeful? I think with age as I said comes more confidence or some hope and also like good things happen and when bad things happen you realize that you know how to get through them and I think that that's a good thing I think that failure is a really good thing I think that being able to figure out a problem is a really amazing thing and I think knowing that no the worst that can really happen is like I don't know this certain thing doesn't work out but then there'll be other things that do work out so yeah I think like failure is just as good as success in so many different ways because you learn from those things.

38:34And I think sometimes success can be quite uncomfortable for some people because you kind of don't know where to put it. So I think that, yeah, in time, you're just like, everything just works itself out in some way.

38:43Fearne Cotton: You're so right. I totally agree with you. And I think sometimes with moments of success, because they are moments, I think we all assume that like, you get to a place where like, I don't know, your aunt and deck, there's success. But, you know, I've interviewed them on the podcast and they've gone, oh no, we don't feel like we've made it. You know, it's an inner world thing. It's when you feel for maybe an hour like, oh, that went well. And you're so right, especially I think with something like, you know, you dream of being a writer. You write your fiction that blows up and everybody absolutely loves it.

39:18Fearne Cotton: Then what? Like you've done it. And it doesn't mean it's the end of the road, but there is a moment of like, oh, right. okay and then sometimes you think oh and I'm just still me and I and that there's still all the things in my head that feel problematic and doesn't fix anything I think that's like a cultural issue we still have that we assume that feeling is gonna then negate any worries that are to follow and it doesn't work like that it doesn't at all but I do think it's about trying to like I guess it sounds really but I've just tried to practice gratitude just all the time for all things because there are always things to be worried about and always things to be grateful for and I think that the balance of that is really necessary to be like well I'm still just like a functioning human and uh I guess like constant success would just be really exhausting and you wouldn't know where to wouldn't know where to put it but I guess success is a different is different for every single person and I think everyone has different benchmarks and that's important too yes sometimes my most successful days are just where my children haven't had a massive fight and they've eaten some decent food and they're asleep.

40:24Fearne Cotton: And I'm like, I've nailed it. I've absolutely nailed it. Which books recently have really floated your boat? There is a writer called Disha Filior who is American. She writes short stories about racy church ladies in America. Oh la la. Yeah, I know. And she has a new book coming out called The True Confessions of First Lady Freeman, which is this conceptual novel which is about a pastor's wife she's very young and sexy and gets up to things that she shouldn't and it's like a mega pastor of like a huge church buying yeah so i've been reading so i've been reading that i've been taking my time with it because i've been like going around but i really really love savoring yeah yeah i love i think leaning into like like saucy is good i think yeah but not like full on but like you know we'll keep it you know churchy racy churchy racy yeah Yeah, a genre of its own.

41:15Fearne Cotton: I love it. How about nonfiction? Have you, have there been any books? Like whenever I'm asked this question, I always try and like remember the list because it's so overwhelming to think back about all the books you've read. But there's a nonfiction called The Four Agreements that I've gone back to again and again and again. Because I think there's now even a new edition, The Fifth Agreement. But it's like four very esoteric, like rules for life, basic foundational things that we can lean on when we're feeling really, really shit. and whenever I've been in a bit of a dark space that is the one book that I know I can pick up and just I'll get something from it have you have you got books like that in your life?

41:51The one book that I go to all the time is On Connection by Kay Tempest and it was written at a time when he I guess was really struggling with being successful so he's a poet and a performer struggling with being successful and didn't know how to connect with people and I felt like I was at a time when I was just working all the time and didn't see my friends and didn't see my family and I didn't really know what friendship was or what care was at that time I just knew how to file a deadline and it's about how to connect back with yourself and then to connect with other people while acknowledging how difficult it is to just lose connections with people so it's just a tiny little book and that's where I can go back to it constantly but it's like one of my little bibles I have all the time and if I'm feeling a bit like I'm not quite myself I'll just like find a passage I love that I love Kate hey if any of you

42:41Fearne Cotton: love poetry we've got an expressive arts area which is one of my favourite parts of the festival every year where actually you're doing a book reading there later on but there's book readings there's poetry readings there's relaxing music it's a really nice spot if you just want to like grab a coffee go and sit there listen to something gorgeous we had Donna Ashworth there yesterday who was doing beautiful readings people were crying it was heaven I think we've got Lucas Jones there today I want to say and here maybe and I am Lucas Jones number one fan I've never met Lucas but whenever I watch his poetry online I weep so I'm gonna I'm gonna like curtsy when I see him later I'm very excited um where is your happy place where is my happy place my happy place is in my head which I think was necessary um but it's I remember visualizing just a really nice room with loads of books in it an open window and the curtains like flowing as breeze was coming through as i wish it was coming through today and this week and last week um and i just go back to that place i just visualize that like all the all the all the time like it's it's like a really calming thing for me it's like i've had it for maybe like 10 years it's just like my grounding place but in real life i would say for me it's kind of like at the end of the day when i've like done my like teeth care and my because i've got like a retainer and stuff my teeth care and my skincare and i can just get into bed and be like everything is done and everything is is quiet and I can just do my like 20 minute meditation and then fall asleep halfway through obviously um but that's my happy place my place is like when the day is like when the day is complete yeah I love that and I love that you've got one in your head when I did EMDR therapy that's what we were kind of told to do is you find that place whether it's you know by the sea or whatever but you can visualize it really strongly and get the same visceral feeling of being there.

44:30Fearne Cotton: It's really powerful. Yeah, mine should be on a beach, right? Like, shouldn't be in a room. I'm going to try and... Yeah, switch it to a gorgeous beach. Yeah, I'm going to change that. Lovely drink, the waves lapping on the shore. Gorgeous. Well, look, we have loved having Queenie's working on it as our July book club pick. It's been a joy for me to read, a joy for our book club members to talk along about and to get excited about. You're going to be doing a book signing, I think, quite soon. the book area is literally next door so if you want to get your copy signed you can buy one there you can get the book signed we've got loads of authors doing book signings all day today um Candice Carty-Williams thank you so much for being on Happy Place and for being at the festival give it up for Candice

45:14Fearne Cotton: Candice what a beautiful chat I loved it I loved meeting you I loved getting to know you I loved hearing about your creative process just what a wonderful person you are one of my best mates who was sat in the audience said that was their favourite chat of the whole weekend. One of mine too. I just absolutely loved it. By the way, the Jordan that Candy spotted in the audience is the wonderful Jordan Stevens, who was doing a talk later in the day with Donna Lancaster. I just love Jordan. I've left him a regrettably eight minute long voice note saying how much I appreciated him being there. And he's not replied because probably hasn't listened to it.

45:50Fearne Cotton: No one wants an eight minute voice note but you know when you can't sum up how much you love someone in less than eight minutes it was one of them sorry Jordan right we are heading into a new month which of course means a new book for us all to read in the happy place book club in August we're reading family friends by Chloe Ashby oh this is such a sumptuous book this is the perfect holiday reading because it's set in south of France. I love a holiday book that's set in a foreign country. It's my favourite thing ever. And this is one of those books where you can feel the heat of France coming off the pages.

46:28Fearne Cotton: You can smell a barbecue cooking. You can hear the crickets chirping in the bushes. It's one of them. I absolutely love it. Here's the concept. Two couples always holiday together at the end of the summer. But this year, there are ghosts of the past and irrepressible new connections getting in the way of their idyllic getaway. See, it's juicy, isn't it? I'd love if you came and chatted about family friends on Instagram. We are at happyplacebookclub on Instagram. There's loads more behind the scenes stuff from our wonderful authors on that page too. And we just basically nerd out about books in general.

47:04Fearne Cotton: All right, lovely lot. Until next time, a massive thanks again to Candice and to you. You are my favourite bookworms.

47:13Thank you.

47:43Fearne Cotton: anyone else lives the way that you live? They do, and I do. I'm Lindsay Soprano, and this is Giving Pain Purpose. Every week, I sit down with people who've walked through chronic pain and trauma and come out on the other side and talk about how they do it. You don't have to do this alone. Find Giving Pain Purpose wherever you get your podcasts.

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