Book Club Meets: “I was burnt out!” Live a slower life, with Emma Gannon

0:00Fearne Cotton: Hello and welcome to Happy Place Book Club with me, Fern Cotton.

0:05Emma Gannon: Today, A Year of Nothing by Emma Gannon. We're so much more resilient than we give ourselves credit for because I don't know about you, but I've had times where I've been like crying on the floor, just absolutely just falling apart. And then I will get up and go make a sandwich. You carry on. So I think if anyone's worried about completely falling apart and not putting themselves back together, like you will put yourself back together. and actually saying you're not okay was a huge one for me. I remember like ringing my parents and just being like, I'm really unwell and I'm taking time off work.

0:37Emma Gannon: But it was like admitting defeat or failure to me was really hard.

0:42Fearne Cotton: So A Year of Nothing was our Happy Place book club pick for February. Emma Gannon is a writer who found herself massively burnt out. So A Year of Nothing follows her quiet rebellion against the cult of doing and striving and pushing all the time. This book charts Emma stepping away from the noise and rediscovering joy in life's simplest pleasures, from dog borrowing and dopamine dressing to relearning how to swim and embracing a child-free life. As ever, we've all been chatting about this book on Instagram. Our handle is at happyplacebookclub. Come and join us, book nerds. Sarah said she read this in two evenings.

1:22Fearne Cotton: Love, love, loved it. So did I? I couldn't put it down. I read it in like two sittings. As someone who signed off with burnout, it was as if it was narrating my life. It resonated so much. I took so much from it, kindness and a slower and more gentle approach to life. Sarah, I mean, Emma will be thrilled to hear you say that. That's exactly why she's written this book. It's changed Shelley's attitude too. She says she now doesn't feel guilty or worried that something's wrong with her when she's lost her zest for life if she just wants to get home and hunker down in her PJs with a book in the dark evenings.

1:56Fearne Cotton: I mean, that is literally me every damn day. And I love this from Julie. I've read this exquisite book and I love it, especially how interactive it is, challenging the reader to reflect for themselves on their lives. Carry this gem in your bag. It guides you to be at peace with yourself. Too right. I think that's bang on, Julie. And you're going to get so much out of this chat too. I mean, I certainly did. Loads in here about losing your sense of identity, how to stop being mean to yourself. My God, we need that one. And why crying in the woods in your wallowing phase is the absolute best. What's up?

2:35Fearne Cotton: It's Sean Linda from Two Black Guys of Good Credit. If managed supply runs is still on your to-do list, here's your sign to upgrade. Walmart business has the tech, tools, and services that make it ridiculously easy to stock up for your office or team. Think scheduled deliveries, multi-user accounts, and even IT setup. Bonus, with a Walmart Business Plus membership, you get free shipping, spend analytics, and 2 % rewards. Join the smart way to shop at business.walmart.com. Terms apply. Over 90 of the top 100 U.S. accounting firms trust Bill to simplify and secure BillPay. That's proven financial infrastructure built on over a trillion dollars of secure payments.

3:18Fearne Cotton: Visit Bill.com slash proven for a special offer. Hi, who here loves when their nails are perfectly done? Me, I'm Sarah Gibson Tuttle, and I started Olive in June because let's be real, we all deserve to have gorgeous nails, but who wants to spend a fortune or half their day at the salon? And that's why I created the Manny System, so you can have that salon perfect manicure right at home. And guess what? The best part? Each mani only costs$2. Yep, you heard me,$2. No more$30,$40,$50 salon trips that eat up your day. Now you can paint your nails whenever you want, wherever you want. And trust me, you're going to be obsessed with your nails and everyone is going to ask you, where did you get your nails done?

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4:46Fearne Cotton: As I just said off mic, I'm over the moon that not only we get to hang out and chat, but also that we get to talk about this bloody, great, bloody book. It's so brilliant. A Year of Nothing. As soon as I heard the title, I was like, well, I need to read that immediately before I even knew. I feel like it's soothing even reading those words, right? Even looking at the cover. But it is soothing. You're so right. Reading that, A Year of Nothing, how many of us are craving that? And obviously, for many people, it's sort of an absurd idea that we could step out of life. I mean, it's probably more possible to have a break than we believe.

5:23Fearne Cotton: I think sometimes we feel so wedded to we have to do every social commitment, every single thing that's in our diary. And actually, well, as you proved out of sheer necessity, you can make the space. your year of nothing wasn't like oh I'm going to take a gap year guys this was a brutal low that you hit sort of out of nowhere really or do you think now retrospectively you can see that it was it was you were on track to have this big burnout I think if yeah if I look back there there are

5:51Emma Gannon: definitely warning signs and I can sort of tell now in other people it's like a weird one where I'm like I can just spot you know the telltale signs but that might be like what what would you

6:00Fearne Cotton: say because I'm thinking fuck you're probably looking at me thinking woman take a year off

6:05Emma Gannon: and like you just said by the way you know a year of nothing it wasn't quite that straightforward like I still did things but it was more like a year of not caring as much or like a year of not feeling as intensely as I did about work a year of just doing less you know let's just take it with a pinch of salt but I would say the warning signs are things like really resenting things like people around you all your life apathy like just not really caring as much yeah um not having the passion that you used to like I didn't read many books during my year of nothing I couldn't really concentrate I didn't really love things as much I didn't have that like bouncing not that I used to bounce out of bed but you know really dragging myself out of bed was another one um like not washing my hair as often you know little maybe little things like that like not taking care of myself as much um but also I write about in the book like wearing like really mad clothes I was like really kind of having an identity crisis because a lot of this is feeling like I don't know who I am anymore like it was a year of not yeah not having a personality is how I felt honestly a year of like being gloop but I think honestly if you're feeling like that I just want to say to people there's no shame in it I'm like weirdly proud of my year of nothing because I listened to the call of yes you know um feeling really burnt out and overwhelmed and also you

7:35Fearne Cotton: were courageous enough and it might not have felt like it at the time but to properly let yourself fall apart because I can look back at you know I certainly had a moment where I totally unraveled but equally over the years I've had moments where I've not let myself fall apart like nope you will not fall apart you will keep your shit together and you will push through even though you feel like dropping to your knees and howling at the moon or crying your eyes out sometimes the braver thing isn't to track on it's to actually let yourself go oh I am I'm done I'm absolutely done

8:10Emma Gannon: it's so true and also like we're so much more resilient than we give ourselves credit for because I don't know about you but I've had times where I've been like crying on the floor just absolutely just falling apart and then I will get up and go make a sandwich like you carry on because that's what we do as humans so I think if anyone's worried about completely falling apart and not putting themselves back together like you will put yourself back together and actually saying you're not okay was a huge one for me I remember like ringing my parents and just being like I'm really unwell and I'm taking time off work and it was and my parents are lovely but it It was like admitting defeat or failure to me was really hard.

8:52Fearne Cotton: Yeah, I get it. Because there's so much pressure that we're meant to be on all the time without any sort of seasons or without any moment where we just retreat a little bit. And I'm always, I remember when Dawn French came on the podcast, it might have been the first episode. I think it was probably the first or second episode ever, about eight years ago. And I can't remember if this was on mic or off mic, But she said something that really stuck with me. And it was along the lines of, you know, she was living in Cornwall at the time. She might still be there. And she was pondering whether she had retreated from life or was actually, you know, being choosy and doing what she needed to do.

9:36Fearne Cotton: And I was like, God, I don't know the difference in my own, in the context of my life, those moments where I do need rest, I really need to be a bit of a hermit versus when I've gone, I can't cope, I don't want to look over there, I don't want to deal with humans, I want to hide. I find that very difficult to differentiate.

9:56Emma Gannon: yeah that's a really big one and look none of this is easy but I my theory is it all comes down to love and self-respect so it's like for me it's like say I'm really tired and I love myself then the loving thing to do is either cancel everything in your diary and put a film on and get under the blanket or it could be actually do you know what I haven't moved my body for ages and the loving thing to do is go for a walk or like the loving thing to do is like do some weights because I care about being a strong person it's going to be a different answer to everyone but I just come from that now because you can't go wrong with that yeah ever it's such a great point

10:41Fearne Cotton: to start there because when we look at the messaging that's thrown our way whether it's Instagram or podcast YouTube whatever a lot of the time and I actually wrote about this in my new book there's this rhetoric that it's like exercise will make you feel better and it's like well some of the time it does and then actually there's some times and some people like me who need to be told you're doing too much you need to have days where you're resting your body your body is fatigued like let your body rest so yes it's great to go for a walk go for a run swim whatever it might be but actually there's days where you do you need to come from a place of I love myself what do I need today and it's going to be different every day yeah and that's a huge one because you know I don't think anyone has the advice for you know eat this and do this I can't stand the whole like what I eat in a day and all that stuff I'm just like if if that day you just know that your

11:33Emma Gannon: body needs to be nourished then you're just going to intuitively yes be like I probably need some vegetables today or I need like a pizza and a beer because I'm really craving that and I just I don't know I just think we're so hard on ourselves so hard and I think that's really what broke me honestly is I look back at how I used to be and um I was so mean to myself and I I really have got a handle on that now because it's just I don't know you you're gonna crack at some point because I don't think we're meant to uh function in that way no I mean I I still have a little

12:10Fearne Cotton: demon on my shoulder a lot of the time who will be going you're fucking stupid or everyone hates you or you know that can in certain situations that can be quite loud still what did you do anything specifically to get to a point where you can now most of the time act from a place of self

12:27Emma Gannon: love and compassion it's weird because I think because of my burnout which kind of manifested like big panic attacks and without sounding really dramatic I felt like if I didn't get a handle on it I wouldn't survive like because my body was just in this weird fight or flight where it was like if I didn't go home and be a hermit for a while if I didn't say no to the weird events I don't want to go to if I didn't cut out that friend that was horrible to me then I'm so sensitive and it's almost like I've tried to not be embarrassed about how sensitive I am I actually think it's like a really good thing as well it allows me to write novels and be good at doing tarot cards and all that stuff but um I honestly felt like it was survival to grow because I think we're here to grow and if we're not growing you're like the little stunted flower in the garden that's like gonna kind of wither away and I was like actually I think I want to like do big things with my life and I want to be strong and I want to I want to be like I know we always talk about you know like the older woman in our 70s wearing like big necklaces like I want to be that person that likes myself and is like a really lovely presence to be around like I want a good nervous system so that's why a year of nothing I was like if the world at the moment is like killing our souls capitalism is driving everyone insane you know look look around us what's the opposite of that the opposite of that is not rushing around as much oh my god without a doubt I mean there's

13:54Fearne Cotton: so much I need to pick up on from what you just said first of all let's dive into the whole sensitive person thing because I very much I think constantly shouldn't be in this industry because it's hard to be a sensitive person in this industry in many industries I don't have that experience all I know is this and this can be quite brutal in your shoes in my shoes where people have got outside commentary constantly about what you're doing well what you're not what you said what you shouldn't have said you know it can be really personal and I'm maybe like missing a layer of armor that I should have to deal with it and probably once a month I think fuck it I'm gonna quit I'm gonna go and open a cat sanctuary and probably be much happier and maybe that is in my future but it's it's often tricky what do you do to ensure that you can live in a big way have big dreams do the things you want to do express yourself honestly and openly whilst not losing that sensitive side because you're right I think it's a really good thing why would we want to harden ourselves I don't want a thicker skin or to like have to like push through things and toughen up sometimes we can use our resilience to get through things but other times I think it's really detrimental to to push through when we're not that sort of person yeah no I totally agree and actually even when you said armor I was like oh I don't know if it

15:18Emma Gannon: is about armor actually is it sometimes it's about taking the armor off and being like you know I don't know it's with the my year of nothing what was so empowering about it is I knew I knew like the smallest amount of budget of money I needed because I wasn't working as much so I like my overheads were lessened so you know I didn't do as much I didn't go out for dinner as much whatever but I knew like what I need and I knew I just had like the basics covered Like I knew how to kind of get through a day and I knew that I had like five really close friends on WhatsApp or whatever. It wasn't really about I knew I didn't need like lots and lots of things to keep me going.

15:56Emma Gannon: And I think that gave me that resilience to be like, no one can really hurt me because I know how to live my own life. I don't need as much validation, I suppose. Like I validated myself in private for like months and months to be like, I'm good. but I think I don't know in answer to your question it's like I think honestly if you're in this job like you have a lot to give and I see that in you like you're just a mirror aren't you like if people love you it's because they probably love themselves if they love your clothes probably because they would like to wear those clothes if they don't like you I would say maybe something's going on with them like I can really see the separation now of like someone else's thoughts are just nothing to do with you at all and you know the whole kind of like Gwyneth Paltrow thing of like she always talks about how she's like a trigger for people I think it's like people are triggered by people with big light and big energy yeah I don't know I get it I love I love the

16:56Fearne Cotton: simplicity of it like people who give other people shit I say this to my kids all the time it's like I need to take heed of it myself you know if they're talking about discrepancy at school or someone said something about someone that is always my go-to it's like people that say mean things they're just they're not happy or there's something in them that feels slightly unnerved but I guess in the moment it can be quite hard and I'm so fascinated by what you just said there about privately you validated yourself and I think that is so powerful because from my deep dive into the subject of likability which I've sort of spent the last year thinking about for this book I've been writing and there's so many things in your book where I was like oh my god this is exactly what I'm thinking and feeling we often I believe look for that outside validation because we're not sure if we're like getting life right or if in this very binary sense we're a good person or a bad person and we all hope we're a good person but actually we're so much more more than that we're so much more complex than that in a brilliant way we we all most of us and I'm sure most people listening to this are good people with you know good intentions but of course we do clumsy things we do stupid things sometimes we're going to upset other people that is part of the human experience it's not as black and white as being you're a good person or you're a bad person with exceptions of some people currently in the world that are very obvious but for the most part everybody's giving it their best shot but that doesn't mean that we're not fallible or gonna massively mess up so I think it's eradicating that seems very helpful but I wonder what what has helped you privately validate yourself and not need the world to tell you you're doing all right you're good you're a good person I think we actually spoke about some of this when

18:53Emma Gannon: I came on happy place like four years ago do you remember I was talking about how I got confused with what I liked and my taste and I was talking about the algorithms and how I was like what do

19:01Fearne Cotton: I like because everyone's telling you everyone's telling me what music to listen to what's cool

19:06Emma Gannon: what's popular what to wear you know we're in like a trend-led society and it was so much fun going back to like childhood me and I had a lot of therapy during my year of nothing and there was so much in like the IFS therapy where it's like you go back to the parts of you that you've neglected and I think that when you grow up into being an adult you there is still the little you inside you at all times and if you neglect that one then you just become very sad like I remember like looking at photos of myself during that time I'm just so sad and I feel like there's like you know I know you love the woo-woo but I think that underneath it there's like a soul version of us that is like you know you've got a lovely car and you've got a lovely house and you know you're wearing a lovely dress but like there's a there's a layer that doesn't care about material items and just wants to just be free and I think freedom was a big thing for me as well to discover is um what is freedom I mean freedom is I don't need the things I think I need including validation from other people yeah because no one else knows you know I actually had a much shinier job before now I just sit at home writing my books now whereas before I was doing loads of stuff like out there and I'm happier now and that's confusing because I actually had like a better life on paper

20:31Fearne Cotton: before I mean I totally relate to that I think people still go to me oh I haven't seen you on TV for years and years like that was the pinnacle of my life existence and it's like yeah I was much more visible then sure and I did you know exciting tv jobs all around the place but it doesn't feel safe to me anymore and actually I certainly don't need that in my life if something came along and felt right I maybe would consider it but I'm much happier doing things on my terms probably slightly more sort of quietly and calmly and feeling like I'm sort of getting something out of it and also I think the space to just be myself and I think that's what all of us hope we can do isn't it turn up to work or in our friendship circle purely as ourselves and like you said earlier you weren't quite sure who you were during that year and that I think you know even when we had Anton Deck on the podcast the other day Deck said yeah I don't I don't think I'm quite sure who I am which was a huge shock to me I thought you but you must know you're you're so definitely you on TV But I think so many of us in private are going, who the hell am I?

21:43Fearne Cotton: What do I want to do? Who do I want to hang out with? What do I like? You know, we're so confused because we're so bombarded constantly with outside information. Have you landed on, and this might be a bit of an obscure question, but have you landed on maybe a description or a line of who you believe you are? Is that even possible?

22:05Emma Gannon: I don't know I mean I'm lucky enough to have like an office in my house and it's got a massive armchair in it it's got loads of books and it's got like posters on the wall and little trinkets and I was like looking around it the other day I was like this is the bedroom I had when I was like 12 years old like it's just how can I not just be who I've always been and I don't think it's about figuring out who you are I think it's like unlearning yeah all of the crap to be like oh no I knew who I was at like three years old and like you know if we're gonna get really deep I kind of believe that like we we're all like the energy we bring essentially yeah and it's getting back to like the purest energy you know when someone walks into a room and you're like you haven't seen them but you can feel them it's like we all have like our own distinct energy that we bring and if that energy is depleted that's when I think we need to like start the healing process because it's not actually, I don't think, in our nature to be kind of wallowing or sad.

23:08Emma Gannon: Like we need those moments. We do. But I think we're meant to kind of come out of them at some point.

23:13Fearne Cotton: Yeah.

23:13Emma Gannon: And so that's been an interesting one. But God, we're going to go through times where we don't know who we are all the time. I'm trying to normalize this, honestly, because people are like, how do I not burn out? And I'm like, no, I don't think it's about that. I think it's about it being OK if you do.

23:28Fearne Cotton: Yeah, completely. And also, like you say, to have that wandering moment of who the hell am I? Because I think every time you go through that, and I've certainly been through it about a zillion times, you have the opportunity to reinvent yourself if you want. And I'm not talking about like a Madonna-esque, I'm wearing a kimono kind of way now and I dyed my hair black. But like you get to go, well, how do I want to do life? And it might be a bit different to how I did it before. And other people might go, sorry, what, you all of a sudden make teapots or all of a sudden you want to, you know, quit your job.

23:57Fearne Cotton: Like, yeah, shock people around you and do what feels good to you. I think sometimes we're so worried about outside opinion. When you were in this big low, was the apathy so much so that you actually didn't care what people around you thought or what their worries were?

24:17Emma Gannon: That's it. That's it. And I actually think that from people I've spoken to, especially women who go through the menopause, I didn't go through that. But it was a similar thing of I care so much about my own survival in this moment that I do not care if I upset you. And that was so freeing. Like, you know, I think there's that book like The Courage to be Disliked. I haven't read it, but I like the title. I need to read that. And just this idea of the minute you don't actually care if you've upset someone is kind of, I mean, that was just life changing for me. I don't want to go around upsetting people, obviously.

24:50Emma Gannon: but if someone is disappointed that I can't do that thing for them then I'm okay with that I'm not doing it no and so discovering boundaries oh my god it's like I think I feel like a wizard like the fact that I can just not do something yeah it's like because for so long I was so shackled

25:10Fearne Cotton: by that what's up it's Sean Linda from two black guys of good credit if managed supply runs is still on your to-do list, here's your sign to upgrade. Walmart Business has the tech, tools, and services that make it ridiculously easy to stock up for your office or team. Think scheduled deliveries, multi-user accounts, and even IT setup. Bonus, with a Walmart Business Plus membership, you get free shipping, spend analytics, and 2 % rewards. Join the smart way to shop at business.walmart.com. Terms apply. Hi, who here loves when their nails are perfectly done? Me, I'm Sarah Gibson Tuttle, and I started Olive in June because, let's be real, we all deserve to have gorgeous nails, but who wants to spend a fortune or half their day at the salon?

25:58Fearne Cotton: And that's why I created the Manny System, so you can have that salon-perfect manicure right at home. And guess what? The best part? Each Manny only costs$2. Yep, you heard me,$2. No more$30,$40,$50 salon trips that eat up your day. Now you can paint your nails whenever you want, wherever you want, and trust me, you're going to be obsessed with your nails and everyone is going to ask you, where did you get your nails done? And here's a little something extra. Head over to oliveandjune.com and get 20 % off your first Manny system with code PERFECTMANY20 at oliveandjune.com slash PERFECTMANY20. That's code PERFECTMANY20 for 20 % off at oliveandjune.com slash PERFECTMANY20.

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27:15Fearne Cotton: That's R-I-P-P-L-I-N-G.com slash ACAST biz to sign up. Over 90 of the top 100 U.S. accounting firms trust Bill to simplify and secure BillPay. That's proven financial infrastructure built on over a trillion dollars of secure payments. Visit Bill.com slash proven for a special offer. And what do you think was driving that? Because for me, it was always this weird sort of inherent sense of duty that I had to do everything for everyone. I thought I'm I'm so fortunate. I've got a great job. I love I should just do everything that is asked of me, which is absurd because then you're you're skating on such thin ice that you actually end up doing everything fucking badly.

28:03Fearne Cotton: What what do you what was driving your need to do all the things? Oh, my God.

28:08Emma Gannon: I mean, probably like ancient stuff in my body that I wouldn't even know where to start. I mean, the stuff we carry, especially as women, ancestral, probably. Yes. You know, who knows? I could be carrying my great great grandmother's guilt about something. I think we are. And so, yeah, and I've had some really interesting kind of sessions around that stuff. And I think for me, I just was like, do you know what? I don't know if I want to spend all my time digging into this stuff. I was like, I just want to let it go. yeah I don't know if it's as simple as that but I just kind of thought what if I just kind of woke up every day and decided like as if it's just this choice we get to make that today I can just make the rules and what's so interesting is how people react to you when you start setting boundaries at first they don't like it and then they just start really respecting you so it's it is a it's

29:03Fearne Cotton: a good thing it is and I think so I remember reading or maybe it was Brené Brown on a podcast saying as soon as you start setting boundaries, you're going to piss people off. And that's terrifying for everybody. You know, you don't want to upset people. You know, maybe there's a few people that get a kick out of it. I do not. I do not like causing a fuss or a scene. It stresses me out massively. But I think like you say, you can get out of bed and think, I'm going to set the rules today. And you can, and you're wondering there if it is that simple that you can just say, I'm going to let it go.

29:32Fearne Cotton: I think it is because then you just have to put it into practice. So you're not going to nail it first time maybe but then you try again the next day or the next week

29:39Emma Gannon: like we can say no again exactly also I mean your question is so such a good one because I think there is like an underlying fear that drives all of us yeah surely and I think you know we live we do live in a world of like cancel culture and things like that and I was thinking okay what what would my biggest fear be then if I just turn around and say I don't want to do that or upset someone okay what if everyone hates me like what if that is actually true then I've actually lived through my biggest fear which is a year of nothing which is basically how like a counselled person would live for a year yeah because I was just at home honestly like minding my own business having a lovely time but it was just it was this weird thing of like oh I've overcome a fear of mine actually as well that was not being able to work that was a really big fear of mine like what if I can't be this all singing all dancing person at all times well I've lived through it and I'm here wearing my rainbow trousers nothing bad happened so phenomenal like it's sort of exposure therapy

30:38Fearne Cotton: I guess it's so good because I think many of us have that like what what if I stopped what if I stopped doing all this stuff that I believe I have to do or even if you let yourself off the hook with I definitely have the tendency to be a bit of a perfectionist with things that I'm doing or I give myself a hard time if I haven't been the best that I could be that day or the best on that particular job or or even like you know last night I was thinking to myself you're not really an expert in anything you know you're not really excelling at anything here like you need to excel in maybe just one thing and be that person who's known for you do that one thing really well and I was like who who gives a shit who cares like why I sort of have become over the years obsessed with say like sports personalities where they've become exceptional at that one thing like running 100 meters in the quickest time or relay or whatever it might be and they fine-tuned that one part of their brain and body to do that one thing and it's amazing but I don't know do I need to do that obviously not in the running world but do i need to to reach my full potential i don't know how worth i think we again we sort of chucked that theory a lot like reach your full potential push your own boundaries and it's like have we stopped to ask why i mean none of that appeals

32:03Emma Gannon: to me as in you know people who climb everest i'm like hats off to you but like you're not gonna to find me I'm gonna be asleep I'm gonna be in that napping I just I'm that's never I mean and I love that that you have that and of course because look at everything that you've achieved like you're not gonna you've obviously got that ambition to do things really well because you do do them really well but I mean I wrote the book about being a multi-hyphenate like yeah I love a bit of dabbling and trying new things and reinventing yourself and and also a lot of this I think is like following your gut instincts and following that inner compass of what do I want to do which we should mention like you when you left Radio One and you started your own podcast you were like pioneering a whole industry before I did not feel like it but you did something really scary and built your own media empire and I'm sure people were making you feel like you were doing the wrong thing oh yeah and I think that's but that's what's really hard is when during my year of nothing I thought oh my god I'm broken and this is really bad but actually when you're following your instincts you're probably on to something and doing the right thing yes I so

33:13Fearne Cotton: agree I so agree like I'm so attracted to people that I know are 100 % working from an authentic place of this is who I am and this is what I want to do and it could be so niche or like one thing over here but I'm so attracted to people who work in that way because you know it's real it's yeah and in this world and you know we don't know what the hell's real what's not but I think we have a sense of it like oh this person really gives a shit about this thing and I think that's what I'm trying to get back to constantly with anything in my work or personal life is am I doing this out of fear or because I feel like I'm not enough or do I just actually really give a shit about it and that that feels so much less stressful actually because it there's more fluidity to it like you you move with that energy rather than must keep going and pushing through this sort of like hustle culture

34:11Emma Gannon: I cannot bear it's so hard I think you know any industry has its own things but there's always this benchmark of like are you number one and I you know I don't I'm not from the tv world but I'm sure it's really in that world as well the rankings and the ratings and how good are you and honestly during my year of nothing I was like I am not gonna rank or rate or give myself stars like a review I'm can I just like opt out of like this sample of approval that we need for everything everything's liked or commented on yeah I was not perceived no one could like or comment I was just with myself and I really recommend it for anyone out there.

34:55Emma Gannon: I'm not saying do a year, but even just a weekend, even just anything where like you don't have eyeballs on you.

35:01Fearne Cotton: Yeah, let yourself off the hook. Do you know what? I had a day recently that was a sort of a shock to me almost because I've been, I have always been really hard on myself and pushed myself. But I'm definitely going through this really interesting period, probably over the last 12 months of like growth and big, big change. and I had this one day where I'd been out and I drank quite a lot and I was really hungover the next day. And normally that could be a bit of a switch for me to self-loathe and think, right, you better get up and clean the kitchen and make things look nice so you're less of a mess.

35:33Fearne Cotton: And actually I wallowed that day. I felt terrible. I didn't shower. I wore a tracksuit. I watched TV all day. I literally did nothing. I ate loads of junk and I really needed it. And I didn't have that voice in my head going, you are disgusting. I bet other people who are doing well don't have days like this. I just thought, I'm actually loving every minute of this. And it's exactly what I need. And I have never had that feeling before. It was completely new to me. And I was like, I'm onto something. There's change of foot. Like this is, it's not like I've done anything differently. I'm just, the voice isn't there.

36:12Fearne Cotton: Yeah.

36:13Emma Gannon: That's really huge. Huge. Because I think a lot of people who have read the book are like, wow, you let yourself like really, because I had like a week doing that. I mean, more than. And it was almost like people going, oh, you let yourself do that. And I was like, yeah. There was a, and I guess, you know, back to what I was saying earlier about there maybe being a time limit on that, you know, because I think, you know, the whole like bed rotting thing. It's like, I think instinctively, though, we know, okay, I'm going to get up now. Yeah. But you, oh my God, I love to have a wallow. Yeah. And I love to put on sad music.

36:49Emma Gannon: Oh, me too. I love to go on a really melancholy walk. Oh, me too. I just. Crying in the woods. Heaven. Oh, so good. Fucking love it. Yeah. It's not like toxic positivity vibes. It's like, however you're feeling, feel it.

37:01Fearne Cotton: Exactly. And I think that's the key to it. Whether you're in a wallowing phase, wintering, which I love that book as well by Catherine May. like whatever that phase is or mood you're in if you really land in it it will naturally move on I think it was also Rhonda Byrne who wrote The Secret when I interviewed her years ago she said something like that to me like if you're feeling sad or panicked or whatever don't resist it dive deeply into it and then it will go yeah and unless you allow yourself to properly feel it you're in it or like the catchphrase of like you can't heal it till you feel it or whatever but it is so so true and actually during your year of nothing like you say it wasn't a year of absolute nothing there were beautiful things that came from it and discovery from that place of joy and one of them was swimming tell us about swimming and what it gave you I learned so much about myself during

37:54Emma Gannon: that year um I mean I feel like physiologically I needed to be in cold water which I think a lot of women relate to in which I was sort of very hot and bothered and I just needed to like plunge into cold water and just like I could see that like the fizzing water just coming off me because it was just yeah I needed to just like wash it all away and get the cobwebs away and so that was nice and I just it was such a kind of lovely moment with like myself where I would just take myself off to the unheated Lido absolutely freezing but just you know have the pool to myself because no one else was doing you know that icy cold um wintry swimming like I was that that winter and it was like no one is going to get anything from me no one's going to hear from me I'm not going to like take a photo of this it was just so private kind of back to the private thing um and to validate that and be like that was a really good day yeah even though I'm not hearing from anyone that it was a good day yeah and you're not being like judged are you doing good swimming how long did

38:56Fearne Cotton: you stay in the cold water it's like how long I want to stay yeah for sure yeah I love that yeah What else emerged for you during the year that you've really kept and that you want to continue with?

39:08Emma Gannon: I write a little bit about dopamine dressing in the book because there was one morning where I was on the turn and it was like, okay, now you have a bit more energy. And I put on these really loud dungarees and just went for a walk. And this is the funny thing. I think when you're very unwell, the very, very simple things in life seem like the biggest epiphany. I mean I went and like bought myself some flowers one day and just like put them in a vase and I was like oh the world is colorful and nice and we can do things for ourselves that improve the day and now honestly before my year of nothing I was like I had no tools I was just like at the 20 something navigating the world and I think the more tools you have like if I'm feeling a bit weird now I'll be like right have I done these five things okay and if I'm still feeling awful after those five things do you know what you just need to go to sleep or like just I don't know sit in the garden in silence it's it's um yeah it's like a formula now of knowing yourself I think

40:08Fearne Cotton: yeah and it'll be different for everyone and that's again I think why you know I sometimes feel uncomfortable that happy place is in the wellness camp and bits of that are great and there's lots of things from that wellness pool that have really helped me and got me out of a horrible mess but equally I don't like it when things are prescribed to us like we're one person your five things will be different to my five things and the only way we'll find out is by trying things yeah a hundred percent test it yeah exactly and that's why yeah there's no formulas

40:38Emma Gannon: and we all go through massive change I think if I was going to call it a different it'd be like a year of change yeah you know we all because in a few years time we'll both be sat together completely different again and be talking about that hard time yeah totally um And I think it's like zooming out, isn't it? And being very objective in a way. Like I'll now look at myself and go, oh, you, you know, you look good now. Didn't look very good three years ago when you were going through that. You know, it's like I can really see how I am from the outside now. And I think it's because I do like my morning pages, very in touch with how I'm feeling through journaling.

41:16Emma Gannon: Julia Cameron do the. I know. I love her so much. She's amazing. kind of been pen pals for a few years and yeah it's been very validating this book I've also like self-published it outside of kind of the traditional means so yeah it's like kind of my

41:33Fearne Cotton: indie author era as well I'm so here for it also my brain's jumping all about the gaff but you mentioned IFS therapy we did an episode for anyone listening who's interested with Gabby Bernstein last summer I'm gonna just wildly stab at that date um all about IFS because she wrote a book about it and I'd never heard of it before and it is fascinating so for anyone listening who thinks what is it how could it help me that's a really good episode as a bit of an introduction to it um Emma Gannon where would you say your happy place is oh um I would say the armchair

42:11Emma Gannon: that I referenced in my office. It's just this big, comfortable, stripy chair and I just will read my books in there. Because that's the other thing I used to do as a kid, read all the time. And I just love having a whole day reading now. It feels really rebellious. I love it. To just turn my phone off and read all day. Yeah. I know you're the same.

42:31Fearne Cotton: I mean, sadly, it is rebellious and it shouldn't be. It's like the loveliest thing to do for yourself is just to shut everyone out and do something you love. It's the best. we're also making a happy place playlist with songs that make you feel happy what would you put on that playlist oh god how many do you want i mean as many as you want sam cluffling gave us two you can it can be one it could be ten um okay what about the new harry styles song i've not heard

42:59Emma Gannon: it it's so good is it it's very like i'm in a tent at glastonbury love he's very cool isn't he he's so cool um i also want to fit lily atlin on there the new album like the the classics on the new album but also i was re-listening to her old albums do you remember that song nan you're a window shopper oh you have to listen to it it's so good we'll put it on there put it on okay yeah

43:22Fearne Cotton: it's really fun okay amazing emma i think what you're doing is fantastic i loved this book so much i've taken so much from it and i know that everyone who's in the happy place book club will feel exactly the same so thank you for writing it and good luck with it thank you thanks emma i bloody love chatting to emma i loved it so much i love everything about emma she's just one of those people that radiates good vibes and have i ever needed to read a book more no i still push myself and push myself even when i'm on my knees i'm very very bad at giving myself rest or even the opportunity just to slow the hell down.

44:02Fearne Cotton: So this book will remain nearby because I need to reread sections of it quite literally constantly. By the way, there's going to be a link to the episode where Emma came on the show quite a few years ago now, actually, in the show notes if you want to listen back to that one. Right, come on then. What are we reading in March? Well, if you don't very well mind, we're going to read my new book, Likeable. I really hope that that's okay but I do feel very passionately about this subject matter. My new book is called Likeable because I spent years and years trying to be the most likeable person very much at the cost of many things at times my mental health, my physical health, my stress levels and actually how much I showed up just as myself and I think I've realised in my 40s that I don't want to do that anymore.

44:54Fearne Cotton: I don't want to be people pleasing constantly so everyone likes me but then I go home and feel shit about myself. That seems to be a topsy-turvy way of living. So in this book I very much tackle these themes head on. I first came up with the idea when I was in therapy because I was yabbering on, kind of people pleasing my therapist and she said to me, she kind of stopped me in my tracks and went Fern how important is it that I like you and my response was to cry I just wept and I was like why am I crying at the the questioning from my therapist this is just a bizarre reaction to be having and it's I realized in that moment it's because I realized I deeply cared if she liked me or not and I deeply cared if everybody on the planet like me or not which is absurd so writing this book helped me tackle all of that and I've truly tackled it head on and I don't feel anywhere near like that anymore and I really hope that you can read the book and feel alleviated from that pressure to people please too I really really do there's lots of memoiry bits in there maybe some tips I'd be as bold to say it's out on the 12th of March and I would just love it if you would come along and join the chat on Instagram it's Happy Place Book Club.

46:15Fearne Cotton: And you can tell me what you think, whether I like it or not. Until next time, a massive thank you again to Emma, to the producer Anushka Tate at Happy Place Studios and to you, you bookworms are the best.