Book Club Meets: I wrote a loveable psychopath! Race and female rage, with Imani Thompson

0:00Fearne Cotton: The thing with being a young black girl is the world isn't made for you. Hello and welcome to the Happy Place Book Club with me, Fearne Cotton. You, the textbooks say, didn't accomplish anything until Rosa Parks sat on a bus. Today, Honey by Imani Thompson. Can you be quieter, please? Can you be smaller, please? But the thing about the world not being made for you is you see it for what it is. how the pieces of power slot together. You start to ask, why? Why? And you peel back the histories. You learn that the textbooks don't speak to truth. That F-R-E-E-D-O-M is a word you gave the world. Are we really to believe the slavers got a conscience and liberated the slaves?

0:52No, because you did that. But power wants people to forget the part you played, the wars of spirit you started, and you understand. That's the game. So you learn to play the game, to soften your voice and wear your hair neater. You tell the boys, yes, I like it when you touch me like that. You tell the officer, no, sir, I was just walking home. Make them think you're one of them. Make them think you're not onto them. But R-E-V-O-L-U-T-I-O-N isn't a word of the French or the Americans. It's Caribbean. It's cashew apple sweet on the tongue of Cécile Fatemont. You know this. Malcolm X taught you things.

1:42Sojourner Truth taught you things. Ain't I a woman? You ask yourself over and over. Because if the first woman God ever made was strong enough to turn the world upside down all alone, these women together ought to be able to turn it back and get it right side up again. The only difference is, Ursa's not interested in right side up or wrong side down. She's, well, it's hard to say quite what she's interested in. Call it redemption. Call it rage. Call it sport.

2:23Fearne Cotton: OK, Honey is such an incredible debut novel from Armani Thompson. Yersa really doesn't intend to kill anyone. But the Cambridge professor sitting opposite her has manipulated her friend and stolen her research. So when she flicks a bee into his drink, she just thinks he'll get a nasty little sting. But now he's dead. And it's a sweet, sweet feeling for Yersa, finally having some control. I love this book because as a debut novel from Imani, I didn't know so much about her writing or the story. So I just got stuck into the book without really knowing how it was going to unfold. And it unfolds in a way that I was not expecting.

3:06Fearne Cotton: And it's really clever because it looks at big, big topics that you'll hear about in this conversation with Imani. But it's woven into just a really great, intricate story about friendship and university life and British culture and guilt and sociopathy. I mean, there's all sorts in there. But it's a really brilliant story. And the characters really come alive on the page. By the way, it also has a bloody brilliant cover. Obviously, it's pink and I love pink. and it's got a little bee on the front which as you've heard from that introduction is quite a key feature of this story this podcast is supported by midi health are you in midlife and feeling dismissed unheard or just plain tired of the old health care system you're not alone for too long women's serious midlife health issues have been trivialized ignored and met with a just deal with it attitude.

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6:36Fearne Cotton: Right, let's do it. Here's the show.

6:59Fearne Cotton: Amani, welcome to Happy Place. And thank you for writing this amazing book, which is our pick of the month. Wow, thank you so much for having me and for picking it for the month. And look at this gorgeous cover, which actually matches our studio so perfectly. I know. I feel like it's really on colour like this summer. There's been so much pink everywhere and I'm so here for it. It's so good and the font, everything. I absolutely love it. How was that process? Because sometimes when you get a cover presented to you, I'm not sure how involved you were in it, you can be like, that's not it. But this feels very fitting.

7:32It was so good. They sent me this cover and I was just like obsessed. That's it. It was like the easiest. It was so easy because I was so stressed about the cover. I was like, what am I going to do if I don't like it? If it's not good at all. So no, and it was the same in the US too, both covers. I thought they were so strong, the first one they sent me. And yeah, I think the pin to be is just so smart. I love it so much.

7:52Fearne Cotton: It's so cool. I mean, this has been, I'm imagining, a mad whirlwind. This is your debut book. You're 26? 27. 27. incredibly young to have a book that has just blown up globally I mean how are you taking it all in? Even as you say that I'm like no it hasn't like it feels it's everywhere it does feel so surreal I mean the whole publishing process has been so surreal because I know how difficult it is to get published so even like getting the agent and then getting the deals I just keep thinking like surely someone's gonna wake me up from this it just doesn't feel it's so brilliant But I mean, it's amazing.

8:29I'm so grateful as well. It's so exciting.

8:31Fearne Cotton: And you were writing this whilst working and you were working as a bookseller in a bookshop and then writing in your breaks and your free time. How are you doing it? Well, I started writing when I graduated and I had a different job for a while. I was working for a charity in North London and then I actually kind of got fired, which was quite helpful because for three months I was like, I had about 20 ,000 words at that point. And I was like, I'm just going to burn through my savings and finish a draft. And then I started working at dawn when I was editing and finding an agent. So, yeah, most of the editing process happened when I was working as a bookseller.

9:00Fearne Cotton: So great when you can look back retrospectively and go, oh, that's why I was fired. That's good. And actually see the positive of something that probably stung at the time. Yeah, it did stung at the time. But now, yeah, you got a book out of it. Because I feel, you know, I was so grateful to be able to have that time and to have the savings to have that time. Because if you're working and trying to write, it takes so much to formulate your characters, your plot, that the quiet can be just so helpful. Yeah, you want to get totally lost in it and think of nothing else, really. I think I've only obviously written one fiction, but I found when I had other things going on, which was like parenting and a job, I just wanted to be in that world the whole time and sort of get lost in it completely and see, obviously, there's so many different routes that you can go with a book.

9:48Fearne Cotton: And I think when you're really in it, that clarity is just there as to where your character's going, where the plot's going. That's a good feeling. It really, really is. And I do feel sometimes I must be quite annoying to people because emails and like when you're really in the book world, you do feel like you're living in two entirely different realities. And then you're like so slow to reply to a text. I'm like, I'm so sorry. Actually, I was off in my mind. My characters are having the whole affair. Like this is going on at this. Yeah, but it's amazing. I love going into the other world. Yeah, well, let's talk about this other world because we've got this extraordinary protagonist, Ursa, who this switch flips in her head where she goes, I mean, spoiler alert for anyone that's not read it yet, but tough tits.

10:32Fearne Cotton: She starts killing people. She does. And it starts off in, it's not an innocent way because she kills someone, but in a way that, you know, it was kind of partly accidental. And then things really start to build from there. what drew you to a lead character who has that kind of mindset so I really didn't think I'd write a book about a serial killer I like I'm so shocked that this is my first novel actually what what insights is giving us into your psyche like I I am the type of person like if a documentary is on the telly about a serial killer like I leave the house same like I can't do it I can't I never listen to true crime podcasts no I'm just not but it's different with books I think it's different but even then like I didn't read really dark thrillers I just kind of like serial killers I was like that's not one for me to think about so the reason the book came about is I knew I wanted to write about race and gender politics I wanted to look at gender-based violence I knew I wanted a black female protagonist and when I looked at that space I thought that's tricky that's going to be a hard sell I want to try and make this book funny I want to try and make it accessible I don't want her to be positioned as a victim in this space which is then it was like well maybe instead of being a victim she could have victims um so yeah the idea then came for her like murdering bad men but murder is a way to do intersectional feminism I was like that's quite a fun plot yes and as you said like you've got racism in there you've got misogyny sexism you've got these big big themes but you managed to weave it into this story which is also about female friendship and dating and uni life was that a tricky mix to get it weirdly like wasn't that difficult to be I think because I knew the university world so well so that was quite quick and easy to build out and then yeah it's just like a little sprinkling of murder in there it's like okay what if after your lecture you just went and murdered someone so no it wasn't too I think what I was really keen about doing was balancing the real academic side of the book with this much more plotty like more satirical side of the book so I wanted to get that line without a doubt I mean there's so many big points that you're mulling over down the line it's so fascinating and also it's so interesting to have a character who can be unlovable in many ways because of her actions but also at times you're really rooting for her because you say they're not nice men and that's a I think a tricky thing to master.

12:57Yeah totally because I knew it's not going to be very interesting from the off you don't like her so I took a lot of inspiration from Killing Eve and characters like Villanelle who are such lovable psychopaths so I needed her to be very empathetic and relatable in those ways and like again the dating and the friendship really helped build her relatability out and then with the men too they're bad men but I needed them not to be wholly stereotypical so with some of them hopefully you should be feeling whilst reading like oh you kind of deserve it but like do you deserve it?

13:28Fearne Cotton: Yeah it's so interesting and you say that she's a narcissist and on the psychopathic scale. So that's an interesting mix to kind of work with again. Do you like her? Did you like her as you were writing her? I do really like her. I feel like she lives so run free in my head still. Once I finished writing the book, I really kind of mentally closed down and said, okay, you've got to leave me alone now. But I do occasionally, I'm like, what would Yusra do in this situation? Which I think is not a good thing to think. But it's her humour and also her willingness, her commitment to freedom in a way that there's part of her I slightly respect.

14:07But I shouldn't really admit this because she is a terrible person.

14:09Fearne Cotton: No, but I think when it's fiction, you can really have fun with those parts of a character that you know you do not have. Like she can walk away from a situation that we can all say on paper is a terrible thing to do. And she feels nothing? Yeah, largely she gets a high from it. And it was really interesting writing someone who culturally really understands her position and how she's been socialized and the power dynamics around her, but doesn't emotionally engage in the same way. So there was a liberation to writing her in that. You know, people often say, oh, was it like cathartic to write The Killing of Bad Men?

14:46And none of the violence was very cathartic, but her embodiment of her own desires, that was quite cathartic. Yeah, I bet.

14:53Fearne Cotton: Yeah, I mean, because so often we can't act on the impulses we have or the thoughts that we have. So I'm imagining that was, I mean, writing should be fun. Even if I think you're writing something that's dark, it should be this big exploration. Of course, you went to university, you went to Cambridge and you were originally studying English, but then you moved over to study sociology. So you've got that deep curiosity about the human psyche and how the world works and how humans interact with each other. How much of what you did at uni ended up in this book? So much of it. I mean, in terms of just the academic theory itself and how I quote that, but more so what I love about sociology is it is the why do we do things?

15:32You get into the nitty gritty of power structures, where they come from historically, how they've shifted and changed. And that's what Yus herself is very interested in. It's why she does get a kind of intellectual kick out of this like task that she set herself. so I love sociology for so many different reasons but I think being a writer as you say like going into the depths of a character it's been so helpful as a topic to study.

15:56Fearne Cotton: Is she a character you would want to bring back? I don't know about this sometimes I feel like there's no sequel in me but I do occasionally think like could there be a prequel with her mother and her grandmother because I feel like they're very interesting women. Yeah exactly just like see what the root of this was why she's turned out the way that she has that could be fascinating if you were to just go off on a totally different tangent now and write a book totally unrelated or maybe you already are I don't know I am you are of course um can you tell us anything about that any themes yes so there's no serial killers in book two it's uh set down in Dorset where I grew up and it's also set in the near future and it's looking at the climate crisis migration questions of having kids in these uncertain futures um so yeah quite different again and it's interesting too because honey is so set in a place in time there are so many cultural references but in this book I'm writing now it's I don't date anything so I can't play with those cultural references in the same way so it's been I've really enjoyed writing something so different I bet but again massive topics to get your teeth into I get yes I don't I don't pick easy topics um but to me writing isn't about finding the answers necessary to all the questions I write as a way to kind of write through what I don't understand and just try to explore it and I know people say about honey like the ending's a little bit contentious but I never wanted to answer these big questions that I set up I don't feel that's necessarily the place of the novel like that's what academic writing does it's like here's my neat conclusion but in here I was like the conclusion is what the reader wants it to be Yeah.

17:35Fearne Cotton: And I think that's so fascinating because the topics in there are so huge and so meaty. I think for people to then walk away from the book having read it and discuss it, and that's what our book club is all about, and to have their own ideas and thoughts or even discussion points that they can bounce off each other to kind of, you know, chew over it. That's so interesting rather than, oh, okay, and the conclusion is this. I agree. Like if someone says to me, I really thought about your book after reading it, like I couldn't stop thinking or trying to figure out. I'm like, that's perfect. That's what I want from an ending.

18:08Fearne Cotton: I love that. We've absolutely nailed it. I hope so.

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19:27Fearne Cotton: So what is your writing process? Obviously this is your first published book but I'm I'm pretty sure you've been playing with ideas and writing for as long as you can hold a pen or open a laptop. I have yeah. What's what's your kind of process? Is it an idea just lands in your head then you go with it? How do you write? What time of day do you write? Where do you like to write I'm fascinated with the process I am such a routine less person so when I had those three months when I was just writing I was like you know I'm gonna do the artist's way I'm gonna wake up and do my morning pages go for a walk have my coffee write 500 words I never do this I procrastinate literally all day long and then it's like anything clean the flap go to the shops again whatever it is and then it hits around 10 p.m and I'm like I better write some words on the page 10 p.m Sorry, I have not got a personality at 10pm.

20:13Fearne Cotton: My brain stops working at about 6pm. No, this is where my brain really gets into gear. I'm such a night owl. And I think I feel like when people are very morning people or they like the night, it's the quiet. I just kind of need the day to settle down. Like midday, I'm like, no, I was far too busy. There's too many things going on in the world. I can't write anything. So, yeah, I like it to get dark. You light a candle. I always listen to music as well. Whilst you're writing. Really? Can it have lyrics? Yeah, yeah, definitely. Really? Yeah. And if I'm stuck, often I'll go and I'll listen to a song and I'll move around to the song to try and get the rhythm and the texture of what I'm trying to do.

20:47Fearne Cotton: And does it have to relate to the book or is it a feeling of the character? It's both. It's like the mood. I write so much based on rhythm. So often it's rhythm that I'm trying to hear. And when characters come to me, it's like the rhythm of the voice that I hear from them. and then I kind of, it's hard to explain, but I know when I'm writing if I'm on beat or off beat. Yeah, it's like you hear the story. That's so cool. I mean, you can totally see that. There's bits of the book where you could have a big old chunk and then you've got a few little separate sentences and then it's like almost sort of poetry in places.

21:21Fearne Cotton: It's beautifully rhythmic. Thank you. Wow. I love poetry. I read a lot of poetry as a kid as well. And this book is super dialogue heavy, which is what's been nice about writing the next one as well. There's more prose than dialogue. so like yeah the rhythms are different the songs are different that I listen to. Can you think of any songs that really played into writing Honey? I do have a whole playlist there was quite a lot of like Nina Simone on the playlist there was quite a lot of Beyonce like Beyonce's Lemonade was a big inspiration for a lot of this and the kind of like the aesthetic of the book as well I had in my mind.

21:54Fearne Cotton: Nina Simone I Want a Little Sugar in My Bowl is one of my top 10 songs of all time. That's on the playlist. it's just there's something about that song that gets me every time yeah no it's so great and there was a moment this the song's mentioned in the book actually when she's at home with her mom and I was riding with my flatmate there and I was like oh I need a song like what do you think it could be that she's listening to and my friend was like Nina Simone's don't let me be misunderstood I was like perfect just that voice it's just oh it's got so much umph behind it I love it and you have a certain place you like to write are you the sort of person that can write in a cafe because I I don't understand that.

22:29Fearne Cotton: Yes, I do. I'm quite a cafe writer. I am definitely, I'm neurodivergent in a way. I must be. I've never been diagnosed. But if there is even like a bird tweeting outside, I can't focus. I can't have any sound. That's quite hard to find in London though. I know. I have to lock myself in a cupboard. So people are like making coffee, chatting over here and you can focus? Yes. I don't understand. No, I quite like it because I also feel like something about being in a cafe or anything. Well, I better work. yeah I like should scroll on Instagram because that would be embarrassing because people can see me I think it's like this like vague like social pressure I should be like I better do some work I love it but I also because I spend so much time by myself as well obviously writing so it's nice to have the sort of company of people around you in a cafe yes I do understand that I think when you have sort of like long days on your own I do you know whether it is writing or if I'm researching podcasts or whatever I can be on my own and I really like my own company or if I'm painting I love painting if I'm on my own for a long stretch I love it but then I get to the point where I think I actually don't know how to speak any like I think if the postman comes I won't know how to do that like the interaction do you have to make sure you get a bit of a balance I do yeah no I think I can do like max like a day and a half by myself and then I go quite stir crazy and I'm like especially if you're so in your head as you say in the work that you're doing you're like you know this is this is getting bad and what was the first moment you experienced out in the wild going into a bookshop and seeing Honey prominently on a shelf?

23:58It was actually so amazing because I went to Dawn Books and I was with a friend because I knew it was going to be theirs which was like so exciting to see it in the window because my friends who worked there had said it so I was like kind of prepared for this and it was still amazing to see it and then the friend who I was with he wanted a book that they didn't have there so they suggested going to Foils because it was pre-publication week so I was like it was not going to be in any other bookshops and we walked into like the main flagship foils and it was right there like a huge shelf of it and yeah this was actually one of the best moments i mean what

24:29Fearne Cotton: a moment it was so incredible did you buy one just for like the process of taking your book i actually didn't buy it you have to do it no i didn't i mean i signed lots of them and they were so lovely about it in the bookstore and i like facetimed my family i was like look at this yeah i mean it's like amazing still seeing it in the wild um and my dad happened to be in new york that week and he was hand selling it in Barnes and Nobles to poor customers. Heartbroken that's too cute. And then he'd like go up and he'd be like well now you've sold out you've got to order more. That's so good. I love it there is something so special about seeing it and especially as it is so utterly beautiful.

25:07Yes I know.

25:08Fearne Cotton: What's the best feedback or comment you've had so far? Oh I don't know one of the funniest was my granddad read the book even though I said please Please don't read the book. And after reading it, he just goes to my mum. But how does she know these things? Oh, bless him. I know. So I need to apologise to him for everything he read. You're still just like a baby to him. Totally, yes. That's grandparents. I know. That's their role. That's adorable. Well, look, we are so chuffed to be discussing Honey and dissecting it and having people throw out these interesting subject matters and talk about it in our book club.

25:43Fearne Cotton: Thank you so much for writing it. I cannot wait to see what you do next and read your following books because it is utterly genius. Amani, thank you so much for being on Happy Place. Oh, I forgot the most important question. Yes. Where is your happy place? Oh, oh, probably down in Dorset. Whereabouts? Well, I've been thinking one of the beaches. So maybe like Ringstead on a beautiful summer's evening. You know when the evening just feels so long and endless. And you're at the beach and you've got some food and you've got your friends. it's the best Ringstead's a bit of a local one isn't it it's like it's not it's not the tourist beach it's the one that the locals know now I feel like I shouldn't have said it just any beach and also pick your beach it's a beautiful place to choose Imani thank you so much no thank you oh thank you Imani god I'm sort of intimidated by how Imani is just so unbelievably clever and driven and articulate and I could kind of be her mum I mean maybe not her mum but just someone in her 20s, so impressive.

26:48Fearne Cotton: And that's not to be demeaning to anyone else in their 20s, obviously, it doesn't matter about age, but she's already achieved so much having this book published and having such creative genius and writing skill. She's just an absolute wonder. Amani, thank you so much for your time. Right, we're heading into a new month, which of course means a new book for us all to read in the Happy Place Book Club. In July, we're going to be reading Queenie is Working on It by Candice Carty Williams. Ah, this book. I love it. This is the much anticipated follow up to 2019's Queenie, which I also loved. This time, Queenie Jenkins is questioning whether she wants kids and being priced out of the housing market in the place she grew up, as well as coping with horrible heartbreak.

27:39Fearne Cotton: Now these characters, I actually messaged her the other day on Instagram because I said, I now walk around the streets believing that these characters are out there. They are so real. I was completely in Queenie's world the whole way through this book. You're going to absolutely love it. It was just great escapism for me. And if you've already read it or you've started it, you'll know what I mean by saying, TFL guy has literally lived rent free in my head and I don't like him. He well me up something rotten. You are going to love this book. I would love it if you came and chatted about this gorgeous novel on Instagram.

28:13Fearne Cotton: It's at Happy Place Book Club. There's loads more behind the scenes stuff there, too, from our wonderful authors. And we just nerd out about books in general. Right. Until next time, a massive thanks again to Armani and to you. You're the best, you lovely bookworms.

28:48Fearne Cotton: Happy Place is researched by me, Fern Cotton. The producer is Anushka Tate at Happy Place Studios with studio engineering by Basil Oxtoby. Hey, it's Paige from Giggly Squad, and I want to let you know that if you want the newest and hottest beauty products, you have to go to Sephora. I'm obsessed with the One Size Liquid Blotting Paper Spray. It's the first of its kind blotting spray that mattifies for up to eight hours. It's unreal. There's also the Summer Friday Shade Drops SPF 50, which basically lives in my bag at this point. Oh, and the Kayali Eden Plush Pear smells so good. It's sweet, warm, and addictive.

29:27Like, people literally stop me and ask what perfume I'm wearing, which you know I love. So if you want the makeup, skincare, hair, and fragrance products, everyone's about to be obsessed with. Shop only at Sephora. This message is brought to you by the Capital One Venture X card. Venture X offers the premium benefits you expect, like a$300 annual Capital One travel credit for less than you expect. Elevate your earn with unlimited double miles on every purchase, bringing you one step closer to your next dream destination. Plus, enjoy access to over 1 ,000 airport lounges worldwide. The Capital One Venture X card.

30:03What's in your wallet? Terms apply. Lounge access is subject to change. See CapitalOne.com for details.