Book Club Meets: Meeting their ex, jealousy, and heartbreak, with Aisha Muharrar

0:00There was no bride. There was no groom. Hey, welcome to the Happy Place Book Club with me, Fern Cotton. A blue dot next to Julia indicating a preference for fish. Today, Loved Ones by Ayesha Muhara. ...multi-generational crowd pleaser. No maid of honour fiddling with a sheet of white printer paper, unfolding it from eighths to fourths, then taking a theatrical deep breath before she says, OK, so. Which made sense because it was not a wedding. But there were approximately a hundred of us gathered at Berkeley City Club, a grand Italian Renaissance revival building often rented out for private events, like weddings.

0:41And there were two sections of dark wood folding chairs, separated by a wide stripe of hardwood floor. An aisle, if you will. And more important, it just felt like it should have been a wedding. It's what we did that year. We went to weddings. Not together. Though Gabe did ask the year before. when the invitations went out and before he'd started dating Elizabeth, if I'd be his plus one to the Tokyo wedding of his percussionist and backup vocalist. They'd met on tour with him. I would have loved to go to Japan, but I already had another wedding on the same day. By September, I'd been to six and RSVP'd to three more.

1:20I was 30. Gabe, born the same year but in December, was 29. And apparently we'd entered that stage of life where, if you haven't nailed down your version of semi-formal cocktail attire, you'd better do it quick, because that's what your weekends were going to be for the next decade. This perpetual wedding season was such a well-known truth about people our age that I could feel an awareness of it in the room as I stood up, clutching my own folded sheet of printer paper, and began to speak about my dear friend Gabe. It was one of the things I had to avoid saying in Gabe's eulogy, the obvious thing that he was only 29 and his death was so sudden by anyone's estimation it would have been more likely I was speaking at the happiest day of his life

2:10so September's book club read was loved ones by Aisha Muhara it's her debut novel and it tells the story of Julia whose first love Gabe dies age 29 launching her into a worldwide quest to recover the possessions that he left with friends and acquaintances across the world. It also brings her into contact with the last woman, Gabe Loved. It is completely gorgeous. I adored it. And so did you lot. This is Hannah. This book completely had me in its grip when I was reading it. The exploration of love, loss and grief is just outstanding. Mahara delves into the ins and outs of living life after losing someone so close to you and how to deal with all those questions that will now never be answered.

2:55The characters are so bold and so well developed and the humour really brings a refreshing edge to the writing and to the story. I absolutely fell in love with this book and I hope so many other people do too. Oh Hannah, I'm so glad you love the book. Letitia, you've had some amazing thoughts too. I really enjoyed Loved One. I thought this book did such a great job exploring the complicated, messy, difficult to navigate aspects in life. I love books that explore situations where you think, I have no idea how I would handle this if I were the main character. How does someone approach such an impossible and tragic situation that Julia was put in?

3:39The complex relationships were probably the most interesting to me. I really got a lot out of seeing how the two women figured out how to come together and that they actually really needed each other and the realization that is bittersweet that no matter how close you are to someone you still never get the full personhood of them and there is another relationship that did get a different side to them and the battle of figuring out like which version is their true self and the reality understanding that it's all true it's all accurate like a person is a multitude of things um and grief really is very difficult um especially when you don't have closure so overall such a great read um and i'm really glad that this came out and i think she's a great writer and i really look forward to seeing what else she comes out with well i had so much fun chatting with aisha we had a really good laugh we talked about the mad realization everyone has a very different view of who you are as a person, exactly like Letitia just picked up on.

4:48And do you reckon if your exes, God forbid, were in a room together, that they'd get on? We talk about that too. Aisha also explains why she basically had to rewrite the whole book. Madness. Hey, I'm Paige DeSorbo, and I'm always thinking about underwear. I'm Hannah Burner and I'm also thinking about underwear, but I prefer full coverage. I like to call them my granny panties. Actually, I never think about underwear. That's the magic of Tommy John. Same. They're so light and so comfy. And if it's not comfortable, I'm not wearing it. And the bras, soft, supportive, and actually breathable. Yes, Lord knows the girls need to breathe.

5:30Also, I need my PJs to breathe and be buttery soft and stretchy enough for my dramatic tossing and turning at night. That's why I live in my Tommy John pajamas. Plus, they're so cute because they fit perfectly. Put yourself on to Tommy John. Upgrade your drawer with Tommy John. Save 25 % for a limited time at TommyJohn.com slash comfort. See site for details. Skip the gym, not the workout. With Hydro, you get a full body workout in just 20 minutes, hitting 86 % of your muscles in one smooth, low impact motion. And now there's the new Hydro Arc, Hydro's most advanced rower yet. Arc introduces hydrometrics, tracking your power, endurance, and precision every time you row, so you can actually see your progress.

6:14Go to hydro.com and use code ROW to get$100 off any hydro rower, including Arc. That's H-Y-D-R-O-W dot com, code ROW. If you're a smoker or vapor ready to make a change, you really only need one good reason. But with Zinn Nicotine Pouches, you'll discover many good reasons. Zinn is America's number one nicotine pouch brand. Plus, Zinn offers a robust rewards program. There are lots of options when it comes to nicotine satisfaction, but there's only one Zinn. Check out Zinn.com slash find to find Zinn at a store near you. Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical.

6:57Right, let's do it. Here's the show.

7:19Hey Aisha. Hi. Oh, it's so nice to properly meet you. I love your book, loved one. Thank you so much. I'm very excited to meet you. I have listened to the Happy Place podcast and I don't know if you have the app anymore. Maybe it's not in America, but I was on the meditation app and it was like my favorite meditation app. Yeah. What? This is blowing my mind. What's going on? Oh, my God. You've discovered our little Happy Place world. I'm so thrilled. And look, we're so excited because obviously your brilliant book has been our Happy Place book club pick for the month of September. And we've just loved reading it.

7:58I took the book on holiday with me and I think it's the perfect, perfect read when you're really knackered and you get to a lovely location. I was in Ibiza and just to get lost in this world that you've created. It was just beautiful. I loved it. Thank you so much. So I've seen a couple of interviews with you talking about the book. I know this particular idea, this love triangle that includes grief and self-discovery and friendship and romance and comparison and everything in between. This came to you whilst you were in the back of a cab or certainly like the idea was initiated there, right? Yes, I was in a cab.

8:38I was in New York and I was with my friend. We were in the backseat of a cab and she was telling me that her friend was dating my ex-boyfriend. and he had been a totally great boyfriend, amicable breakup, no notes. But her friend was not having a good time with him. And she was saying, I am. I recommended him based on what you said. Like he's a product. I know. And I was like, I'm not Yelp for boyfriends. Like, I don't know what to say. Like, so I was like, OK. But, you know, we laughed about it. But then it stuck in my head, this kind of romantic Rashomon, like we can be different people in different relationships.

9:16I didn't really have an answer for her. I mean, I stuck by my experience. He was a good boyfriend to me. I don't know what had happened in the years since. If he changed, if it was this specific relationship dynamic, like you don't really know. But I found that very interesting. You know, like we changed so much with time. And even if it's like a week apart, if you're with different people, they could bring out different sides of you or different trigger points. Like who knows? It's so interesting. I think about that all the time, even you know if we can if we look at our own lives and we sort of maybe narcissistically put ourselves right in the center of that the nucleus of our lives you can see how each person would have a completely different tale about you know like to some of my friends or family members I'll be the very sort of loud entertaining one but then to other friends I'm the more sort of introspective quiet person in the crowd and it or you know you're the one that's a bit feisty and up for confrontation, but then in another dynamic, you're not, you're the one that takes the back seat.

10:16It's so interesting that everybody has a completely different view of who you are. It's absolutely true. I took, um, I took a voucher with my husband when we were newly engaged and I had taken a lot of vouchers with my friend, Amanda, and she's very like, take charge, mama bear, she's the wedding control. And I just like sit back and then I was going with my, at the time fiance and he was like, okay, let's get ready. And I was like, okay, what have you plan and he was you know like he was expecting me to do the plan and I was like so used to Amanda that I was like this is not like my trip with Amanda I get to relax I was like oh no I'm the Amanda now you're the Amanda yeah I find that fascinating and actually the thought of having like you express in the book two exes two ex-partners in the same room together and how their views would differ is fascinating slash terrifying, a terrifying prospect.

11:10Yes. And that's kind of the first scene that came to me. It was these two women in the restroom at a funeral of this ex that they shared. And I knew once Elizabeth, she basically confronts Julia in this moment. And like, once I had that scene, it's just like you're saying, there was just so much drama and conflict inherent in that. And they could go back and forth back and forth about who this person was and they're also both hiding things from each other and yeah that was kind of the first scene I wrote and I was like okay I think there's a lot more here I want to know more about these two women and their dynamic and it was so interesting seeing how they were sort of you know rubbing against each other in ways sort of pissing each other off but equally they found little moments of connection and they were sort of slightly in awe of each other at points and and then also so interesting to see the it's almost like a sort of of mental competitiveness I'm sure we will have all felt at some point whether it's to do with an ex or a current partner where you're comparing your relationship with in this case it's Gabe who has died I'm not that's not a spoiler alert that comes up very very very suddenly in the book but you know they're trying to sort of mentally do the maths to work out who was closer to him who knew him best you know who had a more sort of a deeper connection that's that was really really interesting.

12:30Oh, thank you. Yeah, there's a competition there. And I think it's envy and jealousy. And I also thought like there's so many, there are instances of like, okay, it's two women, one man, like there's even a joke in the book, like, is this going to be a cat fight? And I wanted to really see like two women who are aware of those stereotypes and tropes, what they would do, because they would have all of these emotions, but they would want to handle it. They would try to handle it in this like respectful dignified manner and then what would happen as they tried to do that and the other thing like you were mentioning they they're also kind of drawn to each other they're getting along their way like in another setting if they met at Gabe's birthday party or his concert they might have been you know fast friends yeah but they're meeting at his funeral and they're also they both dated him so they're both his type too in a way so there's this also this thing that I've always wondered and I feel like my friends have too where if you get two exes in the same room, like maybe they'll get along because, oh, like this is the type that you like.

13:29Like they're very similar. Or will it be kind of like, oh no, narcissism of small differences, like now we're clashing and we really don't like that. But I thought that was something I really wanted to explore in it too. Yeah. And you've also got some very specific locations, one of them being London. It's very much where I live. Why was London on the list? Why did you want to explore all that in the book? There are a lot of reasons I chose London. I do personally love the city and I spent time there. I spent my husband and I spent like three months there living. So I did want to have a place I was familiar with.

14:02The other reason was she's Julia starting in LA. And I did want it to feel like a stark contrast where she ended up a place with no seasons and entering a place with very clearly defined seasons. Also, again, yeah, also again, this idea that Elizabeth and Julie are two sides of the same coin in a way. And I like the idea that like, technically they're speaking the same language, English, but they just have very different points of view. So any chance I could just like show how they're similar, but then there's this just communication difference, different way how they see things. And I thought that, yeah, those were the reasons I chose and I chose the city.

14:41And I'm glad I did. Like I also wanted, it's a book about grief and there's also funny moments and light moments, but I knew there would be a lot of intense feelings. And I chose London because I wanted a place where I could kind of write about the city, this beautiful city and the charming aspects of it that I love so that we could be getting that through Julia's eyes, even as she's struggling in other areas. Yeah. And I could so picture Elizabeth's restaurant, the kind of cool East London vibe that's, you know, kind of a bit French and chic and everyone's a bit cool in there. You know, So those places exist, that is for sure.

15:17No, definitely. And I feel like there was a mashup of a few different places in London, some in Paris, some in New York, some in LA that I kind of put together. And that was a really fun part of writing. And actually I got to look at different cookbooks and get a sense of Elizabeth's life. Yeah, that was very fun. It was great. I love when books jump from location to location. You really feel like you've taken a trip. You've landed there. You've also got Barcelona in the mix as well. Why Barcelona? Well, Gabe and Julia meet in Barcelona. They're studying abroad. And to some extent, it's again, right what you know.

15:48I've been to Barcelona and I had a friend who did a study abroad program there. And then I also had two friends who'd done a study abroad program in Greece, but I'd never been to Greece. But I kind of used those two, like just talking to different friends about that experience. I never studied abroad during college, but I was always fascinated by it. And I like the idea of Julia going there for an adventure and then meeting someone who wasn't even in her program. And then also like Julia is she's at that point not sure what she wants to do with her life, but she is interested in art history. And it just seemed like a wonderful city.

16:20There's the unfinished Gaudi. So it's like that relates to Gabe, too. And, you know, his unfinished work. So it kind of came together. Some things were intentional, but then it was kind of great how some things just started coming together in a way that I was in. And I was like, oh, yeah, this works out perfectly. It's nice when you find those little moments while you're writing. I mean, you've worked on a lot of big, you know, Emmy Award winning TV shows like Hacks. What did you find to be the main point of difference writing in that style to then tackling fiction? Well, I think, you know, I started in fiction, actually.

16:57I went to college. I wanted to write prose. I wanted to write short stories and novels. I applied for a creative thesis. And I didn't get it because I made a mistake on the application that, like, triggered a bunch of perfectionist anxiety, like, for years afterwards. I wasn't even the writing part. It was just like the introduction essay. And they were like, it was so close. We had to decide. And I like I just used the wrong author's name. I was quoting an author, but I'd put like the wrong author. And I was devastated. I was it was one of those moments was like, this is what I want to do with my life.

17:28What am I going to do? Senior year of college. And then I had a gap in my schedule. I took a screenwriting class and I had this amazing professor and she introduced me to a lot of movies directed by women, written by women. And she was so encouraging. And she encouraged me to apply to USC for grad school for screen and television writing. So I went to L.A., like sight unseen. I was just like, I'm going to go to L.A. and I'll probably end up back on the East Coast because I'm from New York. I will just give this a go. And I never left. I've just been here pretty much since then. Wow, that's great.

17:58Yeah, I worked as an assistant. And then I worked on Parks and Recreation. And it's just like really fortunate to have worked on great shows and wonderful actors and just gotten to do amazing work. But then when Parks ended, I did have this kind of moment where I thought, OK, I'm at this point in my life. You know, I did want to write that novel. I did want to write prose fiction. Maybe I should try that now. And I did. So I just like kind of went for it because it's like it's not going to get easier if I keep waiting. No, no. And it's such a it's such a funny thing, isn't it? Like having an idea.

18:30We all of us have ideas all the time, but then actually committing to doing it. There can be a canyon of time or, you know, you can just keep ignoring that idea until the whisper gets too loud. But at some point you've just got to open your laptop and just bloody well start. Yeah, just start and keep going. And, you know, like I think that also when you're busy with something else, I had a full time job. It was only once I had like that little pause. It was like, oh, right. I want to do this. And you're right. There was a gap between I want to write a novel to, well, what is the idea of a novel?

19:01And that's when like, you know, that cab ride and other things started kind of coalescing in my head. But it took took a bit. Yeah, it does. And I love that. I love how ideas take shape. And then it gets to the point where it's so fully formed. You believe that world exists like it's out there somewhere living independently. I know. Like I miss Gabe. Like there were times when I was. I miss the book. Like, you know, it doesn't happen often. But you have a book where you're like, I want to be back with them. I'm like, where are they? I hate that. I'm like grieving it still. Yeah, that's such a good thing to hear as a writer, but as a reader, I get it too.

19:35Yeah, you're bummed out. Totally bummed out. Yeah, you want them back. Hey, I'm Paige DeSorbo, and I'm always thinking about underwear. I'm Hannah Burner, and I'm also thinking about underwear, but I prefer full coverage. I like to call them my granny panties. Actually, I never think about underwear. That's the magic of Tommy John. Same. They're so light and so comfy, and if it's not comfortable, I'm not wearing it. And the bras, soft, supportive, and actually breathable. Yes, Lord knows the girls need to breathe. Also, I need my PJs to breathe and be buttery soft and stretchy enough for my dramatic tossing and turning at night.

20:11That's why I live in my Tommy John pajamas. Plus, they're so cute because they fit perfectly. Put yourself on to Tommy John. Upgrade your drawer with Tommy John. Save 25 % for a limited time at tommyjohn.com slash comfort. See site for details. Skip the gym, not the workout. With Hydro, you get a full-body workout in just 20 minutes, hitting 86 % of your muscles in one smooth, low-impact motion. And now there's the new Hydro Arc, Hydro's most advanced rower yet. Arc introduces hydrometrics, tracking your power, endurance, and precision every time you row, so you can actually see your progress.

20:49Go to hydro.com and use code row to get$100 off any hydro rower, including ARC. That's H-Y-D-R-O-W dot com code row. If you're a smoker or vapor ready to make a change, you really only need one good reason. But with Zinn Nicotine Pouches, you'll discover many good reasons. Zinn is America's number one nicotine pouch brand. Plus, Zinn offers a robust rewards program. There are lots of options when it comes to nicotine satisfaction, but there's only one Zinn. Check out Zinn.com slash find to find Zinn at a store near you. Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical.

21:30You're invited to spend an evening on Fremont Avenue. For generations, this house has been home to soulful music, good food, and cutthroat card games. Saints and sinners. Unexpected laughs and unspoken truths. good times hard times and of course family always family so pull up a chair and join us at Fremont Avenue a world premiere play only at Arena Stage performances start October 8th tickets at arenastage.org

22:02how do you like to write where do you write what time of day what works for you I'm fascinated with the process with the process yeah I you know if it's I'm right now in a room for hats I'm in the writer's room. So I'm working with a group of writers. So I start the day in the morning, my daughter goes off to school, and then I join the writer's room. If I'm not in the room, and it's just my own writing, I try to write in the morning. I always have this really romantic idea of like jazz music playing, looking out the window, and then it ends with like, oh, an email popped up. And then suddenly I'm doing that instead.

22:35So I don't know, I have this idea, like my best writing days are when I get that like four hours in the morning. But especially with a kid it doesn't always happen that way no and it's so weird with writing isn't it it's either you have a day where I mean I don't this is how certainly my brain works I'll have a day where I'm writing and I will be in flow and nothing else exists and you know I've forgotten the world around me is kind of still spinning and then other days it's like a clunky sentence and then I have to get a snack another clunky sentence and then I'll think I'll just call someone because I can't concentrate another clunky and everything is like very stop start and jarring and it's it's so there's just such a lack of consistency with the process it's utterly amazing slash frustrating absolutely and then it feels it is like you're driving and you're like stuck in second gear and it's taking forever and then you'll have a day where it's really flowing and those days are great but then they also can be so like they kind of get in your head later because you're thinking like oh that day when I was in the flow and it was just so great and then you're one of the clunky days and you have to just get through that but you do have to I mean I feel like that's the best advice I've received about writing is like just to keep going and really sit with the revision and just see what comes out because there are those days sometimes it feels like wait I don't know how to write I don't what happened like I yeah I suddenly don't know I've got no words I've got no good I've got no good adjectives where are they it doesn't make sense and then you know then you get there like it's happening it's so frustrating which character do you think came easiest for you oh that's such a good question um actually well I think actually Gabe kind of came easiest even though a lot of the book there's he's not the point of view isn't there but you know kind of how he was raised with his mom like that was similar to my upbringing um he want he knew what he wanted to do from a young age and I I knew I wanted to be a writer from a young age.

24:31So I got Gabe in that way. Julia was difficult because, you know, I'm used to writing in TV, like really funny characters who just say whatever pops into their head. And I'm kind of like that too sometimes where I'm just like sputtering on. But Julia was really keeping things close to the vest. And she's just a much quieter character. So that was an interesting process, kind of getting in her head and, yeah, just holding back a little bit in the writing of her. Whereas Elizabeth, it was great because she really had, she was just kind of saying things as it came to her. So that was really fun too.

25:05But I love all of them. But I think in terms of oh, I really get this person. I got Gabe. And then I originally wrote the book from Elizabeth and Julia's points of view. The first draft. And then I realized that was taking all the tension out because you'd have a chapter where Julia would say, I wonder what Elizabeth is thinking. And then the next chapter would be Elizabeth was thinking this. I was like, that's not going to work. But it helped to know her when I did switch to Julia's point of view. It helped to know Elizabeth. I mean, that's quite something, isn't it? You know, you can say that in one sentence right here on this podcast.

25:40But I know from writing that to make a monumental change like that, whether you'd written the whole book or were partway through it, to change the point of view from someone is a big deal and takes a long time. Were you at any points like, oh, I can't be bothered with this. It's just too long. I was like that at point A to point Z. The whole time I was like that. I tried to get out of it. I kept like starting them be like, you know what? I think I am just going to go back. And it was tough because, you know, like the third person also, you know, that also feels more like TV. You're kind of looking at everyone.

26:13You can you can make little jokes and show things that the narrator can't see. And then suddenly I'm just in Julia's point of view. And even small things like how a character would describe themselves. You know, I had written a description of her that I love so much. But it's like if someone described themselves this way, they'd sound like a narcissist. Like, yeah. So just little subtle things like that. But yeah, I really resisted. I've been doing book events and people ask me about writing. And that's the advice I give where it's like if you feel like something needs to be done, just do it. Because it probably does need to be done.

26:44And you're just delaying the inevitable. Because I definitely spent a lot of time, you know, being like, oh, maybe I don't have to do it. OK, I'll do it a little bit. Oh, no, maybe I'll switch back. and it just had to be done, you know? Yeah. And, you know, I think it just is a long process. There is no way around it. There's nobody out there that can do a book quickly well. You know, it just is laborious and parts of it are really boring. I think, you know, the bit where you get the idea is like, oh my God, everything, fireworks, pew, pew. This is exciting. I can't wait. I just want it to like land on the page and then you have to do that bit, the translation from brain to laptop, which is long, long, long, long.

27:23It's so long. And I think Ann Patchett said that it's like when you start writing in your head, you have like a grand cathedral. And then when you're done, it's like a serviceable shack. And you're like, wait, what happened? I was like, the plans are so clear in your head. And then you're looking at the pages like, huh? What? Yeah, why didn't it go in there? I don't understand. Why hasn't it come out of my brain? It perfectly formed. it's there is a weird alchemy isn't there because like you say you can see everything in your mind's eye so visually and beautifully and you can feel all the emotion of it but to translate that I mean that is the skill of a certainly a great fiction writer maybe it's slightly different I write more non-fiction than I do fiction but with fiction I think it's such a skill when you read a book and you feel like you're there and you understand the emotions at play it's it's such and sometimes like you say like you can nail it and you feel like yeah I'm doing it and other times it's just like what is the absolute dog shit what is this it's so hard and that's why like the revision to keep going I feel like yeah that feeling though it's not even if when someone a reader gets it and they're in the world that you wrote it's not even it is like oh I I nailed it in that instant like there's some pride there but it's also like this amazing kind of magical thing that happens and I feel like that always reminds me of why I wanted to be a writer like I was a little kid reading a book in the library and I was just like, this is the coolest like trick.

28:46How did this person do this? I don't know who they are. I've never met them. I'm in this world. And I was like, I want to learn how to do that. That seems so cool. And so I like that part is like, it's like, you're struggling with it. You're trying to get it. You think you've got it. Like it's the shag. It's not a cathedral, but you can live there. It's fine. And then someone comes up to you and is like, I love my stay at your shag. It was like, it actually felt like more of a, like a maybe two floor house to me it's so wild and it's also I guess you're you're in the glorious part of having a book newly out into the wild where you're hearing other people's perception of your story you know you can only hope that the total fantasy world that you've created translates to other people and of course that's going to translate in an entirely different way every single time someone reads your work.

29:40And that's a strange moment. It's it is. It's very I mean, I take it not I guess. Yeah, I take it serious in a way because I feel like you're and once the story's out there, like the book is out there, I felt like it's really not mine in a certain way anymore. I've read enough to know that and I've been in enough book clubs myself to know that people have wildly different interpretations of the same book. Like I think I was in a book club. I think there was only one book that we all agreed that we love. Like every, it's just very different for everyone. So I was aware of that. And I've had people at events come up and share different things.

30:16And, you know, the book is about loss. So people have shared their experiences with loss. And I had a woman who was older than me who'd lost her husband. She was a widow and she was saying, well, you know, of course you, you get it. Like I, I lost him. And then she, she like found a box of letters from his old girlfriend before they were together. So it wasn't even a cheating thing, but she still felt weird going through his things. And she was, I think maybe in her seventies and she was like, but you get it. And I was thinking, well, no, I don't get it actually. I wrote it, but I don't get it.

30:44But like that, it felt very, I felt kind of, you know, it was just a good feeling and honored to be honored to be part of her story in that way. Now that she feels like she was seen in some way through the characters, even though when I was writing, I wasn't thinking, oh, there's going to be a widow who sees this and she'll feel like I was thinking about you know people are like it's just been interesting to see different people to see how everyone reacts to it yeah yeah and just knowing that yeah you've moved people and that you're connecting to to people through you know fiction it's it's it's uh it's a remarkable thing and I you know I feel the same I I've been moved by so many brilliant books that are fiction over the years probably more than non-fiction and it is so amazing how you can just be completely transported to another world to new characters but they teach you something about yourself it's it's pure magic i absolutely love it which books would you say have changed your life or um or you've just very deeply connected with could be fiction could be non-fiction yeah so many but i know when anyone asks me this question i'm like I can't think of a single book.

31:52Not one. I can't think of one book. Not one. Your mind goes blank. Well, you know, I love the book The Color Purple, and I read it kind of late in life. It's one of those classics that people talk about. Like, I should have read it when I was 10 or something, but I can't read it. Oh, it's amazing. It's epistolary. Like, there's letters, which you don't... No one talks about that for some reason, at least for me. I didn't know that's how it was written. And I just feel like it really encompasses all of life in one small book. It's like joy, heartbreak, disillusionment, love, regret, like so many things in one book.

32:28And it's both the very like lowest lows of feeling, but then these high highs, like these two sisters who love each other so much. And it's really just a book about love and life. And I was surprised by a lot of the themes that I didn't know about going into it. And there's kind of a strange love triangle in that book too. But it's very lopsided in that there's just one character who's interested. The other two aren't really concerned with that character. Right, right. But it's really good. And then in terms of this book, I really love High Fidelity, Giovanni's Room. Both of those books are kind of looking back at relationships or seeing where exactly did we go wrong?

33:08What happened here? And I read High Fidelity when I was in college. And I was like, oh, men are terrible. and then I read it I read it in my 20s and then I was like oh I'm terrible because I just had a breakup I'm terrible and then I read it later and I was like oh we're all just doing our best you know like it's like I like I like when a book can grow with you as you know like you can read it at different stages in your own life and get something different so high fidelity has definitely been that for me yeah I need to reread that I've not read that for years and years and so what what's going on now because obviously you're you're back to your actual amazing day job but are you going to create more space for another fiction?

33:48Oh, yes, definitely. I definitely want to keep writing. I am writing right now fiction. I want to continue doing both, I think, as long as I can. But yeah, I really I've really enjoyed working on the book. It's a different type of writing. You're, you know, you're alone, you're by yourself. You can go a little deeper with characters. And also this book takes place in a very specific, a span of time, like a very specific time. And And I'm looking forward to maybe, you know, going out more. Though there are flashbacks too, obviously. But just like, it's just nice to have a new project. It's again, it's that delusional period now where I'm like, it's great.

34:24I'm so excited. It's going to be flowing. Oh, I hear you. I so hear you. I actually, I started writing another fiction probably a year ago. And then I parked it because I'm now writing a nonfiction. And I'm sort of terrified to go back to it. I'm like, I don't even know what happens in it. I can't remember. I'm gonna have to read like 48 ,000 words to even know what the hell it is about anymore. It's like, oh my God, it's just, it's the best but worst thing ever writing a book. That's for sure. I know you do have to go back and dive in. That is one thing that is a huge difference with TV writing and writing a book is that if I wanted to see if a script works in TV, it's like, okay, write 30 pages and then I can know if it works.

35:05But to be like, like I was with that draft, I wrote the whole thing and I was like, OK, this is the equivalent of 30 pages for a book. It's like 200 pages rough draft. And then it's like, oh, wait, I have to start over like that. I kept trying to find shortcuts to be like, can I kind of figure it out in like a little short outline or something? Yeah, I had to do the whole thing. No, there is no short in book world. That is for sure. Well, look, we absolutely loved loved one so much. It's just the perfect read. We've had so much amazing feedback from people reading along in the book club, which we're absolutely loving.

35:41So thank you. Thank you for writing a beautiful book. And thank you so much for your time today. Thank you for having me. And thank you for choosing, loved one. I'm honoured. I'm really glad that people are reading it. Thank you, Fern. Oh, Aisha, I love that so much. I really hope that Aisha comes to London soon and we can hang out and maybe like walk around East London and be the characters in the book. I would love that. What a clever, brilliant, wonderful woman. Right, do you want to know what book we're reading together in October? Oh, I've been waiting for this book. I've just been sat there waiting desperately.

36:14It's All the Way to the River by Elizabeth Gilbert. I am obsessed with Elizabeth Gilbert. She's one of my all-time heroes. I still talk about that chat I had with her about seven years ago all the time. I reference it constantly. this is her first non-fiction book in a decade and it charts her electric heartbreaking relationship with her partner Raya who died in 2018 you can come and join the book club and discuss this book with us on instagram at happy place book club and while I've still got you we've got a really exciting competition this month brought to you in partnership with bookshop.org you could be in with a chance of winning books for life in the golden bookmark competition if you haven't heard of them bookshop.org is an online bookshop whose mission is to support local and independent bookshops.

37:07When you shop with them you can choose a specific bookshop to support and they'll receive 30 % of the money you spend or almost all of the profit on your orders for a year or you can just order through the website normally and 10 % of the money you spend will contribute to an earnings pool that's then evenly distributed among participating independent bookshops each month. basically it's an easy way to shop for books online that helps support independent bookshops with the golden bookmark competition one of you will be able to win a 250 pound bookshop.org gift card every year for life what all you need to do is head to the link in the show notes and fill out the form to be in with a chance of winning good luck i'm jealous if you win that one all right Until next time, a massive thanks to Ayesha, to the producer Anushka Tate at Happy Play Studios and to you.

38:00Love you loads, bookworms.

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