Book Club Meets: Murder mysteries and naming emotions, with Susie Dent

0:00Originally designed for boatyard and factory workers,

0:04Fearne Cotton: Welcome to the Happy Place Book Club with me, Fearne Cotton. Besides the old artisan housing, Today, Death Writ Large by Susie Dent. It was also home to the Clarendon English Dictionary, where Martha worked as a senior editor. Each day she would chain up her bike and climb the stairs to the office, where she and her colleagues would study screens that, to the uninitiated, looked much like any other, but which they knew to be repositories of magic, of history and culture, of lost lives, places and peoples. The Dictionary Corpus, as it was solemnly known, was a vast record of current language, an ever-expanding archive of words drawn from sources as varied as WhatsApp messages and scholarly journals.

0:53Martha and her team were simply the latest chroniclers of its currents and pools, watching even as they shifted beneath their gaze. The team had developed the habit of treating each other to pastries at the end of the month, and today Martha had decided she'd make an extra effort and pick up a box of her colleague Safi's favourite raspberry choux from the patisserie on the high street. She was immensely fond of Safi, and often wondered where she would be without her colleague's optimism and curiosity when her own supplies of each were running low. The gooey indulgences might be particularly welcome this week.

1:35Martha knew that Safi was racing to finish her prep for a talk on the history of the dictionary's readers, the volunteers who worked alongside the editors in gathering evidence of language in action. She would be delivering it at their annual conference for the large cohort of current volunteers on Saturday.

1:57Fearne Cotton: Now, you know Susie from Dictionary Corner on Countdown. She's been there since the early 90s. Unbelievable. She knows every single word in the English language and she also knows the history of all those words, which is fascinating. Do you know why we say the phrase Flaming Nora? Or do you know the word confelicity? Do you know what it means? Neither did I. Well, you're going to find out in this chat, which I had with Susie live at the Happy Place Festival in Tatton Park just a few weeks ago. So let's talk about Susie's book. She's written this fiction, Death Rit Large. It's such a clever thriller using all her incredible linguistic skills woven into a proper murder mystery, which is a central conceit that Sally Ann particularly loved.

2:44The plot grips you from page one. It's a proper puzzle with clues that are hidden in plain sight and it's got a really brilliant ending that made the most of all the twists you encounter along the way. The characters are a triumph. They feel real and lived in. They're flawed, they're funny and in places they're devastating. Since I've finished the book I've really missed them. the part I love most were the inklings there are these little word plays that are threaded through the narrative I want to say more but I can't without possibly giving something away which I really don't want to you have to read this book but honestly the the inklings are playful and fun and they're clever and they're really like woven into the DNA of the book Desuit Large is clever it's gripping and of course it's beautifully written I loved it for me it's one to treasure

3:43Fearne Cotton: and I can't wait till Susie's third book comes along now you can always get in touch we love hearing from you head to Instagram at happy place book club getting to hear your thoughts on these books is beautiful so let us know what you think

3:59therapy's biggest impact doesn't show up in some dramatic breakthrough it shows up in the smallest moments. You bite your tongue instead of escalating. You put your phone down instead of firing off that text. You say what you actually mean instead of what would hurt someone else the most. Nobody applauds those moments, but they quietly change your life. That's what growing feels like, and that's exactly what Grow Therapy is here for. Grow is therapy that works, covered by insurance. Sessions average$21 with insurance, and some pay as little as$0 depending on their plan. There are no subscriptions, no long-term commitments.

4:36You just pay per session. Grow connects you with thousands of high-quality, licensed therapists across the U.S., offering both virtual and in-person sessions, nights and weekends. You can search by what matters, like insurance, specialty, identity, or availability. And you can book a therapy session in minutes and begin in as little as two days, not the national 48-day average. See if you could pay as little as$0 for therapy in seconds at growtherapy.com slash start now. That's growtherapy.com slash start now. growtherapy.com slash start now. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan.

5:20Fearne Cotton: Right, let's do it. Here's the show.

5:43Fearne Cotton: Welcome to Cheshire. Thank you. Isn't this beautiful? Tatton Park is so pretty. We love it here. I love the fact that there were sheep just sort of wandering everywhere. Wandering around. And that we follow the sheep. We really, really do. We are a bunch of sheep. But we're so happy to have you here. This is our live Happy Place Book Club. We love our little book club gang. If any of you follow us on Instagram, we pick a different book every single month and then we deep dive into it and all read it together. And it's just the best. So today we are talking about our September pick, which is your brand new book, Death Writ Large.

6:20Fearne Cotton: Now, this is the second in a series and it's a cosy murder mystery. this is a genre that just keeps on growing in popularity especially this time of year is there anything better than just cozying up with a murder mystery book why do you think this genre is just exploding all over again it's interesting isn't it i think um cozy can cover so many different types of books in fact i don't think mine is particularly cozy but in the same way that Agatha Christie I don't think is hugely cozy although she was my comfort reading when I was a teenager because she's quite dark Agatha Christie um you know because it's about evil in the ordinary which is there's nothing more scary than thinking anyone around you actually is capable of um of murder or whatever so um someone very kindly said that my book was Lexi Noir uh because lexicography and noir and I thought that's great because I'll always be number one I'll always be number one in what a juicy word there isn't another one I love as far as I know yeah um but I think as you say I think it's just the escapism isn't it really and um I don't think any of us should look down on on anything that's trying to kind of give you that sense of solace strangely given that it's about evil doings but just that retreat to something else I agree and that kind of thought well that you know could that be me but uh yeah I kind of think mine's more probably more of a mystery than a crime novel but I don't know I mean nothing fits perfectly in any category does it?

7:52Fearne Cotton: No it doesn't need to either but I totally agree I am a massive wuss and I can't watch like true crime documentaries like absolutely not or even like films about violence or murder but a book is a totally different experience for me like a book I can get into some dark nitty-gritty stuff maybe because we can filter things or dream up what that looks like in our head it just it is cozier whereas I think you know if you had a book like yours with this sort of plot on tv you would definitely lose the coziness yes the coziness would go there's something about it being in book form it's really lovely were you a big murder mystery fan Agatha Christie fan growing Agatha Christie and also Dorothy Sayers if anyone loves Dorothy Sayers so that's sort of quite old fashioned for me but yeah I loved all of those and I think I still do even as a child I mean I kind of got past the ponies and the orphans I was big into orphans when I was anyone else I think there's some there's that sort of cozy orphans yes I don't know if it's cozy orphans but just that sense of being alone in the world and letting your imagination fly and thinking where would I you know where again it's that imagining the unthinkable and seeing how you would cope with it I think that was the thing you in this book have married the world of detectives and people that work for the Oxford Dictionary where did that idea first start to percolate when did that come to you uh did it occur to me when I was working at the Oxford Dictionary no probably not uh but I it to be honest then I don't think I would have written this book had it not been from my brilliant editor who said do you want to give it a go I used to write short stories when I was little absolutely loved it I've been working on a it's not really secret but kind of private screenplay for years it's where I've wanted to go if I you know if I just wanted to escape myself I don't think we'll ever see the light of day but crime I'm not sure I would have considered had Kelly and I just had not come and said what will you think about it and I thought well we are word detectives as lexicographers so why not you know see the parallels with crime detection and we use much of the same vocabulary so we talk about evidence all the time you know is there evidence of this word being used in this way or what is the evidence of when it was first used etc and how it's changed you know we're constantly following footprints through through history so in a way there's quite a lot of history of Oxford in this book as well that's what I wanted to do And also the lexicographers have this key role because the killer is leaving little clues, runes, codes, lost language to sort of leave a little trail behind.

10:36Fearne Cotton: And also at the beginning of every chapter in the book, you start with a lost word, a word that we don't hear anymore. Yeah. For instance, from the 18th century, marplot, which means a person who hinders progress. Yes, don't we all know a marplot? Oh, so many Marplots all over the gaff. We've all got one. What was your favourite word that you used as a title chapter? I'm quite big on the lost positives of language. So the ones which meant something really beautiful, but which we've just dismissed because we're a pessimistic lot. And it's respire, which is fresh hope and a recovery from despair.

11:14So it's the parent of despair, if you like. I love that word. And there are so many of those in the historical dictionary, but we only stick with the negatives. Bring them back. Exactly. That's what we need to do.

11:26Fearne Cotton: Like everything full circle comes back. People are wearing flares again. Yes. Let's bring back. Yeah, exactly. Me too. Let's bring back these words. They're so beautiful. I agree. As you said, the book is set in Oxford and you get such a sense of the place throughout the novel. And also the class system at play. You've got in this book a group of elite people and the people in the inner workings of the university. but you've also got the everyday people that live there and work there, the working class. And that concoction of people makes for quite an interesting place. Was that your experience of it when you were working there and studying there?

12:01Yeah. So I studied there and when I studied there, I was quite aware of the town gown thing, as you are, I guess, as a student. I think it's overplayed a little bit, but it's still very much there. and then I went away actually I went to the States for three or four years and then lived in London for one I just felt this pull towards going back I actually then got the job with the dictionaries and I became aware of it the moment I was sort of back that it's not so much resentment although there probably is a little bit of that but it's just I think I think I write about the sort of the rhythms of the university somehow dictate the rhythms of the city and they both kind of go on they intersect and then they they just sort of absorb the city absorbs it all and I find the sort of the tensions but also the the comfort with which they fit together quite interesting and it's it's a stunning city but it's a huge city and it's really it's a gnarly city it's quite complex it's bigger than Cambridge I think people often think of it as this sort of little picturesque city of dreaming spires which it is but it's also you know got like any other big city it's got its shadows so I wanted to explore that a bit.

13:09Fearne Cotton: And you've also got a whole host of characters who are either trying to solve these mysteries or nefarious types that we're trying to figure out as you move through the book. Are you particularly fond of one of the characters? Well I mean Martha is the main editor she is too much like me actually. Do you have a fun when you're writing a book I just that of course there's the pull of the autobiographical but there's also the the desire at least there was in me to pull away a little bit and just to make her was different or or someone that I would like to be so Martha definitely has characteristics I would like to have and don't have yet but I think she's rubbing off on me a bit so I would say always Martha that she works with um two lexicographers called Alex and Safi sorry I've got this I think there's delicious breakfast in the green room and I think I've got something stuck in my throat so apologize for this um I can do the Heimlich maneuver if we need to I'm yeah I can do it I'll be late.

14:02I'll bring that. Alex is in her 50s. She's sort of been through stuff. She's come out the other side. She's savvy and she's sassy. I would like to be more Alex. Safi is the youngest, hugely curious about everything. But she is like a bull in a china shop or a bowl in a china shop, as I read the other day. and she just goes about stuff trampling on people sometimes because she's just so eager to get to the truth but there is that indomitable curiosity as I say in Safi that I love um I quite like Oliver Caldwell as well who is the um the detective who we get to know a little bit more in this novel um and again you discover a bit more about his past I think I've got But even for the perpetrator, I actually have some sympathy as well because of the motivations for their wrongdoings.

14:57Fearne Cotton: Yeah, I think that's always an interesting take because it's so easy just to write a nefarious character who is just evil for the sake of it. But I think when you get to know the motives and you sort of can understand them, it makes for a much more complex read. Yeah, back to Edgar the Christie. yeah exactly absolutely that that's sent to the ordinary for people who are wondering what does a lexicographer do day to day like how does what is the rhythm of your day in that environment it's a it's a fascinating job that not many people get to do how does your day play out uh so i i don't sadly do this anymore but if you go into the dictionary department it's the oxford english dictionary you can hear a pin drop it's really quiet and you just think oh yeah i expected this you know this is just a bunch of nerds sitting at computers um but uh honestly what we're looking at is just the my and i talk about this in the book it's the most marvelous thing uh because they are databases of current language so a lot of our day is spent looking at collections of words that have been gathered from uh novels from chat rooms from blogs from podcasts uh from scholarly journals broadsheet newspapers as much evidence as we can find and we use this to show which words being used more frequently which words new words are bubbling under or you know erupting into use uh which words are being you know their meaning is flipped because as we all know we can change the meaning of a word quite dramatically if you think about things like sick or or even gnarly that i used the other day i remember using that with clara anpo and she said i love gnarly and i I was just thinking, yeah, but you're young and you use it in a different way to me.

16:36I just mean quite complex, whereas gnarly obviously means great. So we see all of this and then chart those words and make, eventually you will get someone sort of drafting an entry for that, which is not as easy as it sounds. But most of the time we are studying this evidence and then we have these great conversations, like in the book, Zafi is desperate to find out the identity of Mickey Bliss. and Mickey Bliss was the inspiration in Courtney rhyming slang for taking the Mickey, which was even for taking the Mickey Bliss, taking the piss. And in some cases we do know who these people were. So we know that there was a real Jack the Lad, for example, who was Jack Shepard, who became a folk hero for escaping from unbelievable sort of situations in prison where he will be shackled to the floor, but always managed to escape until the last time.

17:27And because he was a folk hero, he became known as Jack the Lad. so we do know some of them but we don't know who mickey bliss was so saffy is you know we have conversations about about that kind of thing and and then the mundane things like you know what you're gonna have for lunch and and that stuff but i love those stories bad job it like we say

17:46Fearne Cotton: so many turns of phrase without having a clue what it yeah like gordon bennett gordon bennett yes a person gordon bennett was the son of a newspaper magnate called gordon bennett so he's gordon bennett jr the one that we talk about today and like it's nuts that we say that like oh gordon bennett gordon bennett what's nuts yes it is nuts um and i think so he became he was a sort of bit of a playboy um fast woman fast cars all of that so he was quite high in the popular imagination and people knew about him but it was crucially because gordon sounds a bit like gourd and it was a euphemism for God that we said, oh, Gordon Bennett.

18:28It's a bit like saying, did anyone's grandmother used to say Flipping Ada or Flaming Nora?

18:32Fearne Cotton: Flaming Nora, yeah. Yeah, so that's Flaming Horror, I think, originally. But in, well, our grandparents' day, but also go back to the Middle Ages, the big thing you could not do was take the Lord's name in vain, which is why you have Crikey for Christ and Jiminy Cricket later on for Jesus Christ or Jeepers Creepers or all of those. and actually our swear words, you know, like the big arsenal that we have today, they weren't particularly taboo. They were a bit improper, but you could use the F word amongst friends and no one would have thought, you know, that was less rude than saying damn it. Wow.

19:10Fearne Cotton: It's so, I mean, I'm a big fan of crikey. Crikey, yeah. I've definitely brought that one back for myself recently. Like it's just, it's got some punch behind it. It has, isn't it? Yeah. Crikey, it's got that sort of sense of, ah. It's so fascinating. I love learning the etymology and the stories behind all of this stuff that we just say without any thought. You know, we had your dear friend Tom Reid Wilson here yesterday, which was such a joy. And we touched on this a bit. Just like learning about language is endlessly fascinating. There's so many tales. Tom just, I mean, he views every word as being delicious in some way.

19:44And he's a bit like me. When we have lunch together, we are insufferable. Oh, my God, I can't imagine. we are insufferable because we just one of us will use a word and then we will just sort of sit there kind of almost like we're just sort of holding it up and marvelling at it and sharing its story I'm total geeks I think they're probably quite long lunches aren't they they are they are quite they're not boozy lunches no but just there's a lot of words they're just great yeah he's a lovely human as you discovered he is

20:14Fearne Cotton: he is so gorgeous he's such a lovely man which word do you overuse oh that's such a good question um sure do i overuse i think it might be fab that i just used the other day actually which um i use with my sister i'm not sure it's fully come back in like flares uh it's very 1960s but i just quite like the sound of fab and i used to like the ice creams as well yeah me too i sadly think mine is uh not a word but i make it sound like one word and it's fuck's sake i like that i like that i wish it wasn't but it just is like it just is yes especially in the morning when i'm trying to get all my kids stuff ready for school and you're saying it to yourself i'm saying it to myself yeah this is the only time i ever swear swear properly is um like tom doesn't swear no i noticed very much at all and i don't yeah i've never had this conversation with him really but it's for me it's it's on my own when there's a word for this um which i've talked about a lot which is lalochisia lalochisia is the literally the physical relief you get from having a good swear so um that is my perpetual state like that That is just where I'm at.

21:36There's been so many experiments about this. Do you know the famous one with your hand in ice cold water? No. So if you dip your hand in ice cold water and shout bollocks as opposed to bus, then you can keep it in for twice as long. So it raises your serotonin levels. It lowers your cortisol levels. But obviously we're not talking about aggressive swear. We're not talking about swearing at someone. No, no, no. For your own happiness. To your own, if you're in labour, if you stub your toe, any of that, it helps. Yeah, okay. It literally physically helps.

22:11Fearne Cotton: Giving me even more permission to carry on as I was. There you go, you're a Lalo Kizek.

22:18Therapy's biggest impact doesn't show up in some dramatic breakthrough. It shows up in the smallest moments. You bite your tongue instead of escalating. You put your phone down instead of firing off that text. You say what you actually mean instead of what would hurt someone else the most. Nobody applauds those moments, but they quietly change your life. That's what growing feels like. And that's exactly what Grow Therapy is here for. Grow is therapy that works, covered by insurance. Sessions average$21 with insurance and some pay as little as$0 depending on their plan. There are no subscriptions, no long-term commitments.

22:55You just pay per session. Grow connects you with thousands of high-quality, licensed therapists across the U.S., offering both virtual and in-person sessions, nights and weekends. You can search by what matters, like insurance, specialty, identity, or availability. And you can book a therapy session in minutes and begin in as little as two days, not the national 48-day average. See if you could pay as little as$0 for therapy in seconds at growtherapy.com. slash start now. That's growtherapy.com slash start now. growtherapy.com slash start now. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan.

23:39Fearne Cotton: Tom and I yesterday were talking about your book, The Emotional Dictionary, which is so fascinating again, because I think a lot of the time we assume like, oh, there'll definitely be a Japanese word for this, or there'll be, you know, another language will have the word for this feeling like something that I want to express about where I'm at something quite niche and specific but actually we've got loads in the English language that we just don't know about and you explore a lot of them and I learned a few good new words that I'm going to start using one of them from the your emotional dictionary is groking we've all experienced groking anyone know what groking is you've all had it does anyone have a dog yes so uh this is what your dog does the entire time, or at least mine always used to, which is stare longingly at your food in the hope that you will share it.

24:28And as I think I say in the book, you know, adults do this. Whenever there's chips around, I think everyone, everyone grokes. Yeah. When you think, oh, I should have got that

24:36Fearne Cotton: and I didn't get that. And then you look at your meal and you feel annoyed. And then you look at theirs. You're groking the hell out of it when you're looking at that. Such a great word. It's a great word. Another of my faves, Con Felicity. Oh, see, last positive. So, you know, we have schadenfreude, which is delight in someone else's misfortune. Oh, yeah. Yes. Well, the opposite of that, where there is just pure altruistic joy in someone else's happiness is conflicity, which is just so gorgeous. Yes, I think that we do that all weekend here. Like, I will walk past a tent of people line dancing or whatever, and everyone's laughing, and there was like a big conga going on yesterday or something and it was just like a joy to watch other people enjoy.

25:24Fearne Cotton: Or like we do it with our kids, certainly. Like when my kids are, I'd say getting along, that's never happened. But when they're like, they're laughing, they're doing something and they look so joyful, that is when I'm at my peak happiest, when I can see them. And I had no clue there was a term for that. No, and there's no kind of benefit to you. It's just observing other people's happiness. So lovely. It's lovely. The next one I don't quite know how to pronounce. Age-o-tori? Age-o-tori? Age-o-tori. Oh, my goodness. We've all heard this. Yes. So, Japanese. I really want to learn Japanese, Vern, because it's so evocative.

25:57It has so many gorgeous, gorgeous words. And I'll share another one with you. But age-o-tori is, it's kind of shifted a bit from its original Japanese meaning. But it is essentially leaving the hairdressers looking far worse than when you went in. which and I think we also need a word for that false reassurance you give your hairdressers when they got the mirror and they say do you like it oh thank you so much I love it and you're dying

26:24Fearne Cotton: inside exactly um I've had it so many times I once when I was about 17 I asked I took in a picture and it was like of this really surfy girl and she had like bleach blonde hair and my hair at that point I just had like two sun in bits at the front but the rest was quite natural so these were orange ofs and um and I went in and went like can I just look beachy like this and I looked in the mirror and it was yellow I had yellow hair and of course I didn't say what on earth have you done I went that is exactly it thank you so much and I left and then I got to work and my friend went all right big bird and i was like oh so bad that's exactly that agator tori they've also got um kuchi sabishi and kuchi sabishi is um going to the fridge for the umpteenth time in a day to stare at its contents in the hope of finding something new um but amazing amazing the reason i love this is that it's literal translation is lonely mouth oh poor little lonely mouth sorry but that do you not have that when you're writing when i'm writing a book this is me oh oh just go to the fridge come back two more words oh just have another look it's and i write in the kitchen faux pas it's terrible no no we're just going to do the washing anything other than sit down anything that's sitting right right what was the process of writing this for you are you quite good at going right i'm going to do two hours let's go no okay uh it's the answer um i can completely get lost in it and then write and write and write or i just have days where i do exactly this i get up look at the fridge and do anything i'm quite a restless person anyway so i'm not very good at sitting down for a very long time but more with fiction than the non-fiction i can suddenly find it and then i just have to go with it because you get lost in the world of it it is pure escapism yeah you do and the key thing is there's a scene where i know i've just got to write it and not self-edit on the screen which is what i do all the time longhand for me right nice but only for particular scenes because i can't read my writing half the time so i have to then i mean this whole book i'm like what on earth is what is this stuff but it does help because you you're not going back and crossing out or deleting or whatever well they also there's lots of um research into even just like you know any of us getting up in the morning and getting a pen and just writing exactly how you're feeling and it being a more honest approach to what's in your head I'm imagining it's the same sort of yeah no I think that is true as opposed to looking at your phone which is what we all do yeah which is the pits yeah we can't have this chat without talking about countdown because you are the longest serving person on that show you started in 92 Yes.

29:1692. Well, I was one of many, though. So I can't say I just... Who's doing the sound effects?

29:21Fearne Cotton: I just... I can hear you. I can hear you. That clock. So, in fact, I'm now older than the clock. Oh, I love it. Which is slightly worrying because the clock was replaced. That's so great. Yes. So I'm definitely the oldest living thing on that set. Although some of the team actually been there for as long as me, which is lovely. so yeah I was one of many lexicographers who sat in the corner and then Carol and Richard Carol Wardman and Richard Whiteley wanted a full time team and I was there thank god so yeah so wonderful I know I'm so lucky I still love it we were recording this week yeah it's so great and it's just one of those shows that will never go anywhere there's no way it's going to go anywhere there's still so much love for it yeah there is huge love we've got such a loyal following and then with the naughty version I think we brought an audience back to it because they remember how good that format is because no matter how much you're laughing at the comedians you still have to get the longest word or whatever.

30:24Fearne Cotton: Yeah, it's so great. And what's the plan next? Is there a third part to this series? Yes, there will be a third book and I have to see what happens between Martha and Caldwell for a start which I'm looking forward to so I'll be writing that next year. I have a non-fiction book to write first, which actually will bring in some of the, you know, the words that we've talked about in terms of what's the word for this? We must have a word for this. So it's all about filling the gaps in language. I love that. And then on to the next book, which I'm looking forward to, actually. Yeah. Do you have an idea of where it's going or is that something you're kind of willing to like?

31:01Fearne Cotton: Because I think with fiction, the most important thing you can do is go out and live your life and be inspired by people you talk to, weird conversations you've had. and then that starts to inform where a book's going to go. Yeah. Well, it's interesting you were talking about emotions because this morning as I was driving in, I was remembering, I was thinking that Martha probably at some point in the next book will talk about naming emotions and how that gives us power over them. So there's so much interesting neuroscience at the moment, which might be quite nice for Martha to talk about, where if you are feeling overwhelmed by something or really anxious about something or stressed, literally naming those emotions which is probably what tom was talking about yesterday gives you power over them and it's not like going to town and saying i'm feeling blah blah just literally saying overwhelmed anxious fearful whatever you're not forcing them down because that never works you're naming them down somehow because your amygdala which i think is the stress this way you get the surge of emotion that stops when the thinking the prefrontal cortex or whatever kicks in and you start thinking and so the emotion subsides which is incredible so just this morning I was thinking oh I think Martha would quite enjoy that so I'm already thinking about where Martha's going in her head but I haven't quite got the plot yet yeah oh it will all come I love that I think there's something deeply powerful about using language to work out where we're at because I think certainly in our weird British culture we're subliminally taught to sort of go oh no I shouldn't be feeling this i should not be feeling this i should be happier or i should be grateful and we ignore that feeling and i think it's so important that we go do you know what i'm a bit sad at the moment and like and it's okay like we've all got permission to just feel it you don't get stuck in anything obviously we want everything to be fluid and like my um my therapist who is just like saves my life again at the end she's amazing she'll say the word motion is in it like emotion it's meant to move so you can say I feel sad and then you would look to then hopefully move through it but I think when we're totally ignoring it there's no motion because we don't even know what we're feeling we're going no I'm just going to be okay I'm going to get through this and there's a lot of force whereas actually when you can give it a name and you allow it to be there that's yeah really really powerful just giving it a name and I think you're right because there's so much emphasis now resilience and which is which is really good but equally yeah we are all fallible vulnerable and actually just saying yeah actually feeling really lonely you've said it and you can think about it and then you might you might be able to fix it or you might not but you are as you say moving forward and you've done amazing stuff on that front well i just talking about it constantly living and breathing and learning all about it and it's so endlessly interesting yeah Like the whole thing.

33:54Fearne Cotton: And we're all, you know, we all show up and give it our best every day. And some days we have good days. Some days we feel a bit crap. I actually, like today, feel very present, guys. I'm just going to put that out there. Yesterday, I was a bit like, oh, my God, I'm at the festival. There's lots of people. I can't cope. I was very overwhelmed. And then today, I'm like, I'm really very much here. Okay? That's where I'm at today, which is a good thing. Actually, the same goes for positive stuff. I know this was about manifesting. I don't know enough about manifesting. I think it's a load of shit.

34:22I don't know whether it works. Okay. Okay. I was going to say that. The only thing I would say is that, by the way, all that stuff about naming your response, if anyone's interested, there's this great guy in the US called Matthew Lieberman who's done loads of stuff on it. But there's a woman called Lisa Feldman Barrett who has also talked about, it sounds really ridiculous, but emotional granularity, which is all about having a high EQ, a high emotional quotient as well as a high IQ. Being able to name your emotions. but also finding that if you use a positive word, if you compliment someone, if you stop going about insulting everyone in your head, saying fuck's sake all the time, then it's not actually that it's fuck's sake.

35:05How are you saying it? Fuck's sake. Fuck's sake. Then actually you start to feel, again, you can raise your serotonin levels. So choosing those positive words and being truthful, not just ruthless, but of compassion, then you might begin to feel it. Yeah. I don't think that's quite the same as manifesting.

35:21Fearne Cotton: No, but I like, so let me contextualise me just saying that bold statement there. I think we've lost sight of like what the word manifesting means. Because I think in modern day parlance, it's become this kind of like, you know, make a mood board, dream that you're going to be in, you know, Rio driving in a Ferrari and it will happen. And that's not how life works. And also you could be driving a Ferrari in Rio and be miserable, absolutely miserable. So I always find it really hard when I hear people say, like, just write your manifestation list. Because I'm like, I now at this point in my life, I've had I've lived a weird life and I've had lots of very big ups and downs.

36:05Fearne Cotton: And the bits where people assume you feel really, really great, you often don't. So if I were to write a list of I would like to host the biggest TV show in the world, which I would have definitely put when I was like 22. I did that and I was really unhappy. But then I equally have had like the most joyful moments that have boosted me and taught me things. Literally like, I don't know, me and my kids went on a nighttime walk the other night and I was buzzing, like absolutely felt like everything was fucking perfect in that moment. So what am I writing down? Apart from I would like to feel mentally peaceful.

36:42Fearne Cotton: I don't know. I'm not quite sure. Yeah. I think you're right, it's the surprising moments, isn't it, that you can't plan for, so how can you manifest it? I don't know. All I think we can do is hope that we keep learning and growing and expanding in the right way and not experiencing stagnancy or getting stuck in stuff. I don't think there's any one event or anything that has a guarantee to make us feel a certain way. So I'm really confused by manifesting is what I think I should say. Yeah, it's really interesting. I don't think I know much about it except you're supposed to put, you know, like dollar notes or whatever on your ceiling and just stare at them and then they will multiply.

37:25And then it will just happen.

37:26Fearne Cotton: But I think what you said is really important because if you did, I remember one time, I can't think whose book it was that I was reading, but it basically said, it might have been a Louise Hay book. And I love her books. and having like a little positive thing you can say to yourself about yourself or if you're nervous like you've got to do I don't know public speaking or you've got to do some confrontation or whatever to have a little mantra in your head I do think that works I do think that makes you feel like you say it boosts the serotonin it makes you feel more grounded it makes you feel like you can cope with what's about to come that could be manifesting because you're manifesting the outcome of a current situation you're in by being in a more positive mindset I think that might be manifesting and also what might be manifesting for me is um and I knew I was doing at the time so have you been on Taskmaster no so I went on the on Taskmaster and I literally said to myself before I started you are going to be rubbish at this because I am not hugely practical for a start and also when people expect me to excel at something I will immediately then disappoint and um and I was literally telling myself to fail whereas other people would be like you're gonna smash this and i think that that attitude because i i'd already decided i was you know so i think in that situation it probably it probably would help that's a different kind isn't it no i think well yeah like whatever we need a word for the opposite of manifesting we've probably all done that haven't we like we've gone on a first date we've gone to a job interview we've gone and tried out someone's arranged a hen party and it's an activity and we've said to everyone i'm gonna be shit at this Like we've all done that.

39:03Fearne Cotton: Like the opposite of manifesting is definitely real. So there has to be something in manifesting. I just don't know exactly what it is. Yeah, maybe we haven't discovered it yet. Maybe we haven't. Maybe that will be my next book. It won't be. Look, Susie, thank you. I'm so grateful for you being here today. Oh, it's a joy. What a joy to talk to you. What a joy this brilliant book is. If anyone wants like a very cozy, you said it's not cozy. It's also dark, dark and cozy. read for September. This is the book. Are you doing a book signing for us today? I am doing a book signing. So if you weren't here yesterday or you've never been before, literally there is our beautiful book area.

39:41Fearne Cotton: And all day there are amazing authors signing loads of different books and you can buy lots of different books, some beautiful books there. So do have a look at the schedule. And if you're not part of our book club, head to Instagram at Happy Place Book Club and you can hear about all the books that we're reading because we are a bunch of bookworms. Thank you so much. And I'll see you for the next chat in a bit. Thank you Susie. Thank you. Oh, do you know what I want to do more than anything? Go for lunch with Tom Reed Wilson and Susie who actually go for lunch together and they just both chat about words.

40:15Fearne Cotton: Oh my God, I'm not clever enough but maybe I could just sit there and listen and eat garlic bread. That's my plan. Oh, Susie, you wondrous human being. I just adored that chat. So fascinating and if you haven't already listened to the chat with Tom Reed Wilson and I heard you do. Not only is it just lovely listening to him use beautifully long, elaborate words, but we also talk a lot about 90s food. I don't know how we got onto it, but we couldn't get off of it. So do go and have a listen. There'll be a link in the show notes. Right, what are we all reading this month in the Happy Place Book Club?

40:51Oh, this book.

40:53Fearne Cotton: I'm so excited about this book. You know when you can't wait to get into bed to read? That is this book. I was racing to get to bed so I could read it. It's Murder at the Grand Alpine Hotel by Lucy Foley and Agatha Christie. And this is so exciting. I'm going to be having a chat with Lucy live at the Pig Hotel near Bath on Wednesday, the 21st of October. We're going to have little drinks and nibbles. I want to dress up like I'm going to the Alpine Hotel for a start. And of course, we're going to have a delicious two-course lunch as well. it's going to be sublime keep an eye out on Instagram at happyplacebookclub for more information about that and we'll take loads of pictures and show off about it obviously until next time a massive thanks again to Susie and to you lot you are the best bookworms ever

41:59Thank you.