Book Club Meets: Orgies, PTSD, and bodies, with Sofie Hagen

0:00Before we start, a quick note that there's a lot of explicit language in this chat, so maybe make sure your headphones are on for this one. After I had sex for the very first time with a guy nicknamed Fingers at the age of 16, I called my older brother and told him Hey, welcome to the Happy Place Book Club with me, Fern Cotton. In my town, had already had sex years ago. Today, Will I Ever Have Sex Again by Sophie Hagen. Having tried threesomes and anal like it was standard behaviour, I had not even been kissed. My older brother just wanted me to fit in and not be such a weirdo. Which is why I was quite frankly offended that he didn't react better when I announced to him that I was now no longer a virgin.

0:42As a matter of fact, he instantly started humming loudly to stop me from talking. But I had lots to say and I wanted him to hear it. What's the big deal? I asked. I mean, that's it? This is what I've felt pressured to do for years? This is what the whole world seems to revolve around? This? I mean, it's fine. It's nice even, but it was just simple and easy. The world didn't stop spinning and I'm still the same person as I was before. La la la la la la la la la la, my brother responded and hung up. When I think back, I don't remember if Fingers was still in the room, and therefore overhearing this conversation.

1:24I imagine if he had been, it would make his first time story a lot less fun. I'm not sure that's it is what a teenage boy wants to hear after his first time penetrating a vagina.

1:39Comedian Sophie Hagen hasn't had sex for 3 ,000 days and counting. And it turns out Sophie isn't the only one. In an attempt to find out why we're not having the sex we want, this book asks questions like, can we blame a lacking sex education? Where's the radical sexual liberation we were promised? And should you have slept with that guy in the bush that one time? We've all been there, have we? I was totally obsessed when I read this book. I couldn't put it down. It's why I've picked it to be part of the Happy Place Book Club. Sophie joined me and loads of you at our Happy Place Festival in Chiswick a couple of weeks ago.

2:19It was 9am on a Sunday and I'm sure we could have all done with a bit more of a lie-in. But I'm so grateful to everyone who came along to hear Sophie talk about some brilliant topics, like how everything from self-loathing of our bodies and gender identity to parenting and the cost of living crisis are all affecting our sex lives.

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4:57Go to Wix.com. I can't wait for this one. Here's the show.

5:28It's electrical. Hello. Electrifying Sophie Hagen. Oh, thank you. Take a seat. Thank you. How are you? This is early in the morning, isn't it? I can't believe I'm awake. Awake and public speaking. Yeah. Is there any other way to start a Sunday? I'm like a priest in some ways. We're all at your sermon today to listen to you talk about all sorts of things. But first of all, thank you for writing this amazing book that we've just been loving reading and loving talking about. is incredibly honest and raw, utterly refreshing. I'm imagining bits of it were quite challenging to write. Yeah, I mean, I'm quite good at being very honest about things that, especially things that are a bit embarrassing.

6:18I quite like saying things that you're not meant to say out loud and that other people would maybe cringe to be writing down or to read. So, yeah, it was challenging, but I know it just felt like it was time i think i couldn't have written it three years ago why do you think that is i don't think i was ready to face a lot of things a lot of the things that i kind of battled with when i had to figure out why i've been involuntarily celibate for almost a decade was kind of just embarrassing questions you know a lot of the book is me you know asking my queer friends like how how do you do it when it's a vagina like these like kind of things like i don't want to be a queer person in my 30s having to ask uh you know having to ask my uh also fat friends like so do people really want to have sex with fat people where it's like i have evidence that they do but i had to like ask a friend that because i needed to be told that and those are like the questions where i really valued i would have i I wrote the book that I would have wanted to read.

7:29So I wanted to have heard someone say those things out loud. But the brilliant thing is, and this is why the book is so refreshing, is that so many people have so many questions about sex. And it does feel embarrassing, mortifying to even admit that you've got that question in your head, let alone say it out loud. And actually you realise none of these questions are met with the other person being offended or aloof about it. people want to chat about this stuff and actually you found that out firsthand because you put this question out to all of your followers you know are you not having sex and if so why and you had what nearly 2 000 people respond i had to shut down the questionnaire after 48 hours because i had 1800 replies and at that point they were coming in like every minute and you like story was coming in and i shut it down because i wanted to be able to read all of them and there were just too many.

8:24And I genuinely thought I was going to get maybe 30, 40 replies because I really thought I was alone with this experience. And there were so many people, people in relationships, out of relationships from any age, from any gender, from any country in the world, from any sexuality. There were so many people who had had this experience or these feelings around sex. I was really shocked. I mean, obviously, and you include some of these stories and answers in the book and they're all obviously extremely varied and people coming from different backgrounds of different reasons but were there takeaways like learnings that you that you had from hearing those stories yeah I think mainly that there are so many experiences that I don't know anything about you know there was a lot of a lot of parents uh talking about their experiences with having a child and how both time and pain, physical pain, just like exhaustion and all these things that could lead to them no longer having that relationship with their partner.

9:27The cost of living crisis, how that affected people, people suddenly having to have three jobs or, you know, people being like, well, our 30 year old son just moved back home. So we're not going to do it when he's like on the sofa. And yeah, just like a lot of physical illnesses and stuff that I didn't even know existed. So I think it's just this idea that, oh, a lot of people are going through this. No one is talking about it. And a lot of the people who were writing to me and wrote their stories ended up writing like, oh, I've never actually examined this. I've never actually thought of this before.

10:01Like no one's asked me to think about this before. And it was, for me, selfishly, like as I was writing the book and I thought I was the only one, I was like, no one's going to give a shit about this book. Sorry for swearing. It's such a beautiful Sunday in my church. Your sweary church. I was like, no one's going to care. And I was realizing that, oh, there's a lot of people for whom this is a thing. It makes me feel less alone. And I think that's the gist of everything I ever want to do in my stand-up, my writing, anything, is just to make people feel less alone. Yeah, I mean, absolutely. And that's why I'm so thrilled to have you here as well today.

10:38because that is what we're trying to do with this whole festival is just to make everybody feel like, look, we've all got stuff going on. We've all got issues and demons and a past and things that are challenging. Let's not pretend otherwise. Let's just talk about this stuff and get it out there. And that's, again, why it was just so brilliant reading the book. And as you say, all of these varied reasons why people might not be having sex, like you said, the cost of living crisis, which you might not necessarily jump to straight away. Obviously, mental health is a huge one and the plethora of mental health problems that we know exist today, everything from depression, OCD, PTSD, this all comes into play.

11:16And I think often we look at sex in such a basic way and think it's either we don't feel desired or we're not desirable or there must be something wrong with me. And we put so much emphasis on ourselves rather than actually, let's look at the circumstance. What do you think you learned about yourself from hearing all these stories? And did you actually change your mind or have different feelings towards the end of the book as to why you haven't had sex for so long? Yeah. I mean, I knew when I started that it was, there's no way of saying this without me sounding like a bit of an asshole. It's not because I didn't get the office.

11:55Like the option was there all along. But I would panic. Like every time I got near it, I would just, you know, I would go on a dating app and then I would be like, oh yes yes yes yes yes and then one person would swipe yes on me and I'd be like oh no no no I can't like something would just stop me and I I think I thought like when I first pitched the book to my editor I was like and then at the end of the book after I fixed it all I'm gonna do a gangbang and she was like oh we can just see how it goes and I was like no don't you don't you stop my fun. I'm going to do an orgy. I'm going to attend an orgy at the end of the book.

12:36She was like, oh, we could just, you know, take it one step. But I was like, no, stop ruining that. Because I was like, to me, the goal was to eventually have sex. And then when I started, I speak to a bunch of experts in the book and I, you know, dive into these six big topics that were part of why I'm not having sex, like gender, sexuality, neurodiversity, sexual trauma, lack of sex education and body image and throughout the whole thing I learned I don't know if I've ever fully had sex where I was present like really present in the moment a lot of the times I would just like kind of shut down because there was that panic around it and then the more times you do that the less fun sex is and when your body is like hang on we didn't want to do this and you did it anyways it eventually just goes well no now you're gonna panic if someone even walks too close to you ha ha and I thought I could fix that with an orgy turns out therapy is better so much more boring but it works so much more expensive takes longer it's you know the one-on-one thing is boring but But yeah, I think I learned that it's not about having sex.

13:53It's about knowing that when I do have sex, I can be fully present in the moment. Otherwise, what's the point? When I was younger, with my housemate, we used to have a scoreboard where every time we'd slept with someone, we'd be like, ha, ha, ha. And now I'm just like, oh, why did we do that? like what were we enjoying ourselves i don't think we were i mean i was enjoying winning but the tally chart was long i don't want to do this but yeah the score was just i mean because the the other really interesting aspect of the book especially when you dive into identity is that you are throughout the book exploring your journey of peeling back those layers and working out who you are and i guess that there's never an end to that for any of us we're constantly in that beautiful sort of fluidity of working out who what the core of us is discovering that as we go but you quite literally talk us through those steps and even in the sort of aesthetic way that you cut your hair off you decided you didn't want to wear makeup anymore you were dressed in a way that suited how you felt getting back to that real authentic core of who you've always known you are deep down and will continue to explore so I'm imagining it's quite a scary prospect knowing that the next time you do have that intimacy that you're in that headspace you're not pretending there is no act there is no barrier between you and that intimacy does that scare you yeah so much because it feels it makes me feel quite we don't like the word virgin right because it's very patriarchal yeah it has this idea that a man will take this thing from you and then you're a different person like but it feels virginal like it feels like I'm back to basics I'm back to being 16 being really scared about how this works except now I'm 35 and I feel like I should now but I think I've always or what I figured out is that I've always experienced sex as almost like a script because I've I've seen sex as like I'm going to pretend to be a woman I'm non-binary, which means I'm not a man or a woman.

16:05And I was like, I've only ever known sex from this very, like, heterosexual, toxic porn kind of aspect. So in my head, I've been like, right, I'm about to have sex. I'm going to now I'm going to pretend to be this woman and I'm going to have sex like they do in porn. And I've not had sex as me. So last time I had sex in 2015, oh, my God, that's still so long ago. I was still thinking I was a woman even though it felt like I wasn't and I now have to have sex as a non-binary person and there's not a lot of porn that you know I can't go back retrospectively to being 15 and watch that kind of porn now so I have to relearn everything and do it in a completely new way and well that's the thing it's I can hear like my queer friends in my head being like all sex should be experienced as a completely new thing and all bodies are different and i know all of that and that's why it's so hard because i'm i keep looking for like someone to have told me how to do it yeah but there is no way of doing it apart from how this one person or several that you have sex with wants that to happen i should always approach sex regardless of who it's with as a whole new person with a new body that likes and wants certain things and and that aspect is It's terrifying when I'm used to this like, well, A, B and C, you follow the things that they do in the videos.

17:28Yeah. But I guess it's because then you're relying on intuition, which, again, we probably all should sort of trust ourselves enough to go, let's go with what this feels like in the moment. But that is, you have to let go. And ask and talk. You have to ask and talk, which I remember from my youth. I feel so old. I should be asleep now. You're not as old as me, so please don't worry. I remember being like with all my girlfriends we were all talking about like how to have sex without ever talking like you weren't allowed to say anything you weren't allowed to ask like oh if you have to ask if he has a condom then like you ruin the mood and it's not fun anymore and it was such a there was such a like we're so against talking and like every single person I spoke to in this book and around sex since have been like oh no talking is the most important bit you have to ask like what do you like what do you want do you want this Are you into this?

18:25And that just twisted everything on its head that I learned when I was a teenager. And now I'll have to do that. We have to do that. We have to. And it can be so hard. So hard. And probably will always be uncomfortable having to use language that feels almost clumsy to say. And it's not the normal question you would ask someone. But I guess you have to get through that discomfort to then experience something other than what you've experienced previously. Well, you have to, I mean, be with someone for whom that's just what they do. Yeah. You know, like I think if you it's a red flag, if you start asking questions and they're like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

19:03I'd be like, oh, no, that's not what we're doing here. Like, yeah, I'm pretty sure knowing kind of just waving to people. I know how unprofessional of me. I'm like, hi, babe. Molly, you're right. I get very easily distracted. I feel like now, like when, when it happens again, it'll be with someone who knows what they're doing and they'll be starting the conversation and I'll just go along with it. The market's uncertain. Revenue's tied and hiring on hold. That's why results-driven companies are using Upwork to keep work moving. Go to Upwork.com today and start hiring proven freelance talent fast.

19:43No bulky overhead. No rigid long-term contracts. Just the right expert right when you need them. Work smarter and faster with Upwork. Go to Upwork.com now and find your freelance expert. That's U-P-W-O-R-K.com. Post a job for free and get started today. Hi, this is Knox from the Popcast with Knox and Jamie. And maybe like us at the Popcast, you also know people who have been smokers or vapors. And Zen is the one product it seems like everyone is talking about. Because there are many good reasons to make a change to Zen nicotine pouches. Reasons like Zen nicotine pouches are still America's number one choice for smoke-free, hands-free nicotine satisfaction.

20:20And you can choose between 10 varieties, each variety available in either 3 or 6 milligrams. Check out zen.com slash find to find Zen at a store near you. Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical. Say what you want about AI, but it's here. And it's helping businesses get more done in a day. Wix's website builder is infused with AI so you can stay ahead. Create a beautiful, functional website just by describing your idea. Track how your site appears in AI search results. Create custom images on demand. or launch an entire campaign in a matter of minutes. Wix gives you AI wherever you need it.

21:00Try it now for free at Wix.com. You're invited to spend an evening on Fremont Avenue. For generations, this house has been home to soulful music, good food, and cutthroat card games, saints and sinners, unexpected laughs and unspoken truths, good times, hard times, and of course, family. Always family. So pull up a chair and join us at Fremont Avenue, a world premiere play only at Arena Stage. Performances start October 8th. Tickets at arenastage.org.

21:36I mean, the big question that you ask in this book, which again, I'd sort of overlooked because I think with this subject matter, we just overlook all the simple stuff and go to all these little nuanced complications. You ask, what is sex? Yeah. And that, I hadn't even thought about how complicated that is. Right. I'm also looking again at if you're talking to your queer friends or friends that are non-binary, whatever their background, their setup, their preferences, it's an entirely different experience. Do you feel any closer to having an answer to that question? No, and it's so annoying because when I started writing the book, I was like, I'm going to get all the answers.

22:16And then in the first chapter, I interviewed Justin Hancock, who's a sex educator and has a PhD and he told me that a few times and I asked him like so what is sex and he was like well you know sex isn't you know sex is whatever you want it to be like you can't just define and I was like shut up like give me an answer tell me what sex is come on like just give me a give me a definition and I it was so annoying like no one had the answer and I just ended up being like oh the whole thing is there are no answers to most of these questions what is important is the question like what is sex for you and then you have to look inwards then you have to be present and then you have to actually figure out who you are and what you like and then that's what's annoying that you can't just find all the answers on a checklist I was like oh god just fucking tell me what it is I hate this I hate this all like what do you think like shut up come on there must be a fact sheet somewhere but it's true yeah and I had an experience where you know I've had there was sex that I didn't want to call sex because I didn't really want it when it was happening and there was no penetration so I really loved to be like ha ha ha ha it wasn't sex because there was no penetration and I know that that's not logically true because so much sex is without penetration and then I had another experience where um someone um I was at a workshop like a BDSM workshop and this person like had to like whip me and we had to do these like games and I was like I'm more turned on during this thing than I was during the actual sex bit so why is this not why are we not why is this not sex when this is sexy and there's just so many questions and I had to realize some of these don't have answers and that's really annoying I mean one of the sort of things you land on perhaps is it's about enjoying bodies that's that was Jodie Mitchell that I interviewed for the sexuality chapter who's a non-binary drag king and a comedian and a friend of mine when I was asking them all these questions and I was like come on just give me some answers they ended up just being like it's just about enjoying bodies and that was such a like like yeah oh yeah it's actually not that complicated you know it doesn't have to be complicated it's just about enjoying bodies and it became such a a grounding point in the book for me yeah and just like oh that I just need to remind myself oh it's just about enjoying bodies I mean one of the things that I guess is imperative if you want to enjoy bodies is that you've got to enjoy your own and this is a huge block and I think for so many people this is a massive massive block when it comes to sex is self-loathing self-loathing of your physical body I mean the world sends us that messaging constantly that we are to not like ourselves very much and that we have to notice our flaws they're not even flaws but these supposed flaws and that we're meant to pull ourselves apart and do better and be better and actually one of the most important things we can do is attempt to feel comfy in our own skin.

25:32And it's really hard. I think it's hard for everybody. And if you've got, I mean, I've got a history of eating disorders and all sorts of stuff. So I've had a really complicated journey with that, which I feel like I'm rounding off in my 40s. I'm feeling good in my skin and I do enjoy my body and I enjoy moving and I enjoy the feeling of having that liberation of being able to sort of move and enjoy that feeling. But it's not easy to get there. Where would you say you're at? Because you're such a great advocate for people to embrace who they are and to feel good in their skin. Where are you at?

26:07Well, so my first book was called Happy Fat, and that was all about learning to love your body. So I did feel like a bit of a fraud when I realized, oh, I still have some issues. But I realized there's such a difference between learning to love your body and feel comfortable in your skin and then trusting that other people can love your body because that was the thing I mean I literally in my first book I had a whole like I wrote something like oh yeah fat people fuck like oh fat people have so much sex and I was like then now looking back I'm like oh god I'm like the other ones are not me um but I have I have have had sex as a fat person, but it's, I have always had it in the back of my mind.

26:51Do they really want this? Are they do, is it a trick? Are they trying to fool me? Like, are they just doing it because they couldn't get someone else? Like these, these like insecurities, like I can now learn, I can look at myself in the mirror and be like, I'm hot. I really genuinely feel hot. I genuinely love my body. But I also know that that has taken me 10 years to reach that point. and other people might not have done that work around their feelings towards fat people so to trust that someone when when all you've experienced your whole life is these are these attacks from in the media from sitcoms from people in the street shouting like and all you've experienced are people saying to you you're fat so you're worthless and then someone comes up and they go i would like to have sex with you like you're you're bound to be like hmm really yeah And I don't want to be so cynical.

27:42And I had to come to terms with, like, there's such a fine line between what I have done, which is to use that as an excuse to not go near anyone. To be like, well, they're probably lying. And then I'm just at home with my dog having a nice time alone. And, like, I really like that. And then also, I also wanted to name that it is realistic. Like, there are people, there are a lot of people who hate fat people. So there is like I'm not going to try and gaslight people into being like, no, you just go out there. Like it's just because, you know, if you have the right energy, if you just have confidence, it'll be fine.

28:17Because there are mean people. But there is a point in the middle where there are also people who are not like that, who will love you and who will love your body. And maybe I do need to leave the house every once in a while. Maybe. and there's that point in the middle where you kind of do need to take a few risks and trust and feel safe enough in yourself that if you do encounter the assholes you'll be fine yeah it's so important to talk about this because like you've just said when we know that we've been through something painful or challenging we can cling on to something and use it as an excuse and that's not to be reductive about the challenges because they exist and it's not easy when you've been through tricky stuff or you've had people say mean things to you but you like you say you've got to take risks and step out of that space of well it's never going to happen or or I'm worthless whatever the the the feelings are inside you've got to push through that and a lot of this stuff whether it's about body image whether it's about confidence whether it's about mental health issues that we've had what you've got to do is the hard work to move through it there is no quick fix for any of this stuff you've got to be able to look back into the past you've got to be able to dissect perhaps why things have happened and and have a look at the whole story and it's not easy and I think with all of these situations we're talking about today at the festival there aren't quick fixes for any of it it's it's hard work and it takes a bit of discipline and dedication to get yourself out of a rut with what whatever's going on you talk specifically about having c ptsd can you talk to us a bit more about that because it's a subject i think many of us are probably quite intrigued to learn more about yeah so there's ptsd post-traumatic stress disorder and there's c ptsd which is cool no it's so much more fun it's complex ptsd so where ptsd is like usually like a singular trauma so like a car crash a divorce like a one event kind of trauma complex PTSD is when it's longer lasting so like a bad childhood or like an abusive relationship where it's little things not even necessarily little things but it's constant or chronic over a long period of time so I grew up with a very abusive grandfather who was in my life the first 10 to 12 years of my life which has then which led me so as a child to feel constantly unsafe and always on edge because he would freak out at the tiniest things so as a child what you do because you when you're a child you know that you can't fend for yourself like you're reliant on the adults so you have to keep yourself safe you have to basically appease them otherwise you'll die because you need them to feed you so i would just appease him and that means that then you get triggers right which is um one of the things he would freak out about was sound so being loud so now if i turn on the tv and it's suddenly on a really loud volume i'll get triggered because i still have that instinct that goes no no no no he's gonna freak out so cptsd like ptsd sits in your nervous system because it wants to protect you it's really beautiful everything mental health i think is incredible because all of these like ocd anxiety depression it's all ways for our nervous system and brains to try and protect us it just hasn't really understood that it's not doing that which i think is so lovely so you have this um basically my nervous system is constantly overloaded with hypervigilance and anxiety and because it's like constantly being like oh when is he going to freak out because my nervous system hasn't yet figured out that he's not there anymore he's i'm happy to announce dead um okay fine good they didn't erupt into applause the way i thought it's early they're unsure they're just sort of sensing the fear of this chat the tone it's a sunday morning it's fine saturday night crowd would have been it's fine um but like your nervousness doesn't know the danger is that's ptsd is essentially your body is stuck in this like usually if you experience some kind of trauma and you get to escape.

32:38So if you're like nearly hit by a car, but you step away, your nervous system will go through the process of danger, danger, danger. Oh, pew, we're done. There was no danger anyways. We're fine. And then, you know, you often see it with animals. If like a rabbit is being chased by a snake, when it gets away, you'll see the rabbit like shake its little body and it's shaking out all the adrenaline because it's like, phew, I'm safe now. but as humans if we get into this any kind of tragedy and we don't get to actually escape this adrenaline keeps being in our bodies and then it comes out years later as anxiety and all of that which is where therapy is amazing because it teaches you how to teach yourself oh we're fine now the steak is gone are you able to do that because i mean especially when it comes to sex you have to feel safe you have to feel like you're in a safe environment with a safe person if you're feeling yourself getting triggered what are you doing to get that nervous system back in place you ground yourself i mean it's easier said than done it depends of course on the seriousness of you know your condition um it's about grounding yourself it's about telling yourself that you're safe it's about it's also about boundaries so much of it is about showing yourself that you will respect your own boundaries and that can start as something as small as i'm cold i'm going to put on the sweater now.

33:56And it's such a tiny thing. But for a lot of people who have PTSD or CPTSD, if we're cold, we go, we might not even notice that we're cold. But then if we do, we'll be like, I'm cold. You know, it's fine. I'm going to pick it up later because you're kind of frozen in the moment. But it's one of the things you can do is to go, no, I'm actually going to show myself the, like, I am listening to my body. I'm going to do the thing my body wants me to do. And then And that will eventually show your body that you will listen to it when it says no to bigger things as well. Or like what it wants. It's a long process.

34:31It's a long process. But I think that's such a great way of thinking about it. Honoring what your body needs. And like you say, we so often don't do that in small and big ways. We push through. We cause ourselves pain. We think we've got to keep pushing and pushing and pushing. And that's not conducive to feeling grounded and calm. And in the book, I talk about being in a sort of abusive relationship with a guy. And one of the things that was so prominent in that relationship was the very first time I set a boundary, which was a tiny, tiny little boundary. He kind of freaked out. So I was like, and that was such a pivotal moment that I didn't know at the time, where in that moment, I should for myself have been like, no.

35:18like no I'm actually gonna stand by this even if it makes you upset because that is my boundary and instead I went oh is it really that big of a deal like is it worth it if he like he's clearly upset by this so I should just I'm just gonna like bury that a bit and then every step of the way like every time I said a little tiny boundary he would react very drastically and then I pull and then eventually you have nothing like you don't even notice when you have a boundary because he might be upset. And then suddenly it's five years later and you don't know who you are. You don't have your instincts anymore.

35:50And it was such a clear example of, oh shit, this is, even when it's the tiny things, you have to say something. And I think for people who don't have boundaries, people who are not good at setting boundaries, it feels horrible. Setting a boundary feels like you're shouting and yelling at someone and you're like abusing them for being like, can I please close the window? I'm cold. And you're like, oh my God, this person is going to kill me yeah I have had a history of not setting boundaries well and it never bodes well and it always feels uncomfortable but it is the right it's the right path to take without a doubt yeah one of the things that I really enjoyed looking at in the book is your chat around identity and I wonder and you you asked this question in the book but I wonder if you think labels are always liberating or can they be restrictive?

36:43Oh, there's a lot of breathing in this little tiny mic. I think labels can be both. I think it depends on who sets the labels, right? I think a label can be restrictive when other people decide that that is the label you are. You know, when I realized I was unbinary, it was because people kept calling me a woman And that felt really...

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38:49Go to shopify.com slash retail to upgrade your selling today. Shopify.com slash retail. Bad. Like there was just a bad feeling around it. And I couldn't for many years, I couldn't figure out why. And for many years, I thought, well, everyone says it's there's a lot of struggles with that comes with being a woman. This must be what they mean that when you're called woman, they feel icky. And then I asked my friend who's a woman. She was like, no, I was like, OK, whoopsie. So that kind of labeling, I think, can be it can feel really restrictive. But then finding a label that fits when you have not felt like something fit for a long time can feel such a relief.

39:35When I first found the word non-binary and the word queer, because queer for me doesn't just mean I'm bisexual, but it also means fatness can also for many people mean queer because you're kind of othered in some ways. So for me being non-binary, fat, bisexual, it all fits in with the label queer. And then it feels like family. It feels like community. It feels like home. And in that way, it can be really liberating. And I know through writing the book that for a lot of people, finding words like asexual, aromantic, like has also felt for a lot of people as this like liberation because they felt wrong or weird.

40:13And then suddenly there was a word for it. And it's sometimes with diagnoses as well. If you get a diagnosis, sometimes it can be restrictive because you are now treated in a certain way. there's limitations to what you can get of help but also for some people it's like oh finally yeah there's a word for this thing I've been feeling yeah and then you can do something about it if you need to certainly with mental health problems I think when you don't know why you feel out of control or whatever it might be when you've got that label there's perhaps a route to take to feel better and to get some control over it so I think it's as long as we understand that everything is fluid yeah and everything can change just because you have one you identify as one thing one day you might feel differently another day like maybe you know things evolve and things change and think and sometimes they don't and that's also fine i think the problem is when we want and i'm very much you know i was just talking about how i wanted all the answers to write down forever and like i'm very bad at accepting that things change but as long as we don't put as Sometimes we're not like, well, last week you said that, you know, if we just accept that we have the freedom to move around a bit within labels and from label to label and labels can mean different things for different people, then I think it can be a really nice thing.

41:33Yes, it's so important. So especially and you'll know this from having a big following and being in the public eye that people want you to stay the same. They're like, you can't change your mind. I put you over here and I don't understand now that you're, you know. I think we can have that in all manner of ways with our friends and family if we choose a different career path even. Or our relationship changes that people really struggle to accept that change. I get annoyed when actors do different roles. I'm like, no, no. You're Jack and you're on the Titanic. You can't now be a spy. I don't like this.

42:07I'm very bad at accepting that. But you have to be careful. It's so important. And I just think, you know, like you say, those main themes that you've covered in this book give so much clarity as to why so many people jumped onto that questionnaire and wanted in on this conversation. I feel like this book is the start of just such a bigger movement and conversation altogether. And that just more and more people are going to want to be in on this one and chat about it because it's so liberating. It's so refreshing. Also, obviously, like I DM'd you before today, there's a bit that made me uncontrollably laugh, which I don't do with books, but it was effing funny.

42:49It's so brilliant, and we're so glad to have it as our July pick for the Happy Place Book Club. Please give it up for the brilliant Sophie Hagen. Thank you. Thank you. Oh, Sophie, oh my gosh. I just love that chat so much. There were so many hilarious moments during that chat, but also deeply moving and really profound. And I felt like I got so much from it. I'm still thinking about the orgies versus therapy dilemma as well. Perfect way to round things off. But also just so many useful questions for us to ask ourselves. Really dig deep. If we want to be having properly pleasurable sex, will I ever have sex again?

43:33Was our Happy Place recommended read for July. And if you follow at Happy Place Book Club on Instagram, you'll find loads of extra content and discussions about the book. That's the place you can have your say on all the books that we read together. All right, a massive, massive thank you again to the brilliant Sophie, to the producer Anushka Tate at Happy Place Studios and to you, your ace.

44:23Hi, this is Knox from the Popcast with Knox and Jamie. And maybe like us at the Popcast, you also know people who have been smokers or vapers. And Zen is the one product it seems like everyone is talking about. because there are many good reasons to make a change to Zen nicotine pouches. Reasons like Zen nicotine pouches are still America's number one choice for smoke-free, hands-free nicotine satisfaction. And you can choose between 10 varieties, each variety available in either 3 or 6 milligrams. Check out zen.com slash find to find Zen at a store near you. Warning, this product contains nicotine.

44:54Nicotine is an addictive chemical. When you think of skyrocketing brands like Aloe, Allbirds, or Skims, it's easy to credit their success to great products, sleek branding, and brilliant marketing. But here's the overlooked secret. The real magic lies in the engine behind the scenes, the business powering their business. For millions of brands, that engine is Shopify, making selling seamless for them and shopping effortless for us. Upgrade your business and get the same checkout Aloe Yoga uses. Sign up for your$1 per month trial period at shopify.com slash retail, all lowercase. Go to shopify.com slash retail to upgrade your selling today.

45:37Shopify.com slash retail.