Book Club Meets: Sliding doors and the power of a name, with Florence Knapp

0:00Cora's mother always used to say children were whipped up by the wind. Hey, welcome to the Happy Place Book Club with me, Fern Cotton. Cora feels it in herself now. Today, The Names by Florence Knapp. Gusts leave her at the fir trees behind the house and bursts down the side passage to hurl themselves at the gate. Inside, too, worries Skitter and Eddie. Because tomorrow, if morning comes, if the storm stops raging, Cora will register the name of her son. Or perhaps, and this is her real concern, she'll formalize who he will become. Cora has never liked the name Gordon. The way it starts with a splintering sound that makes her think of cracked boiled sweets and then ends with a thud like someone slamming down a sports bag.

0:51Gore-Dun. But what disturbs her more is that she must now pour the goodness of her son into its mold, hoping he'll be strong enough to find his own shape within it. Because Gordon is a name passed down through the men in her husband's family, and it seems impossible it could be any other way. But this doesn't stop her arguing back and forth with herself, considering all the times she's felt a person's name might have influenced the course of their life. Amelia Earhart, the Lumiere brothers. Only last week she'd noticed a book on her husband's bedside table, Clinical Neurology by Lord Walter Russell Brain.

1:33Doesn't that strike you as odd? She'd asked. Coincidence, Gordon had replied. Although you wouldn't believe the number of urologists called Burns, Cox and Ball, and actually, Mr. Legg is pretty common in orthopedics. Do you not see the risk? She'd wanted to say. Do you not see that calling our son Gordon might mean he ends up like you. But she couldn't, because surely that was the point. She rests the crook of a bent finger against the warmth of the baby's cheek, as though his skin might transmit some vital message of what he wants, of who he might be.

2:18Right, first up, a massive thank you to book club babe, composer and musician Jenny Saint for that piece of music that you just heard. She wrote it after being inspired by today's novel. So a massive thank you for letting us share it with everyone here. It's so gorgeous Jenny, so clever. Okay so on to the book. Oh my gosh I'm obsessed with it which is why I picked it as our Happy Place Book Club read for June. The Names is set in 1987 in the aftermath of a great storm. Cora sets out with her young daughter to register the birth of her son. Her husband intends for her to follow a long-standing family tradition and name the baby after him.

2:57But when faced with the decision, Cora hesitates and wonders if it's right for her child to inherit his name from generations of domineering men. Now, it's not a spoiler to say that what happens is that the book splits into three different narratives depending on what this baby gets named. How bloody clever. You lot have had so much to say about this book on Instagram at Happy Place Book Club. Here's a little voice note from lovely Jenny who wrote that piece of music. Hi Fern and the Happy Place Book Club. I'm so grateful you recommended The Names by Florence Knapp. I literally couldn't put it down.

3:34It's such a page turner. I think the structure of the book is so clever and I really love the way each of the life stories of Bear, Julian and Gordon have their own rhythm and trajectory, but they're still connected by the same emotional heart that is, of course, Cora. She's such a grounding presence despite everything that she goes through, quietly holding the book together as a whole. And while the stories can be dark at times, I still felt that the book is filled with hope. As a musician, I love to respond to a story through composition and this one really, really inspired me with the way it threaded different voices into something so complete.

4:10Now, Hannah's got a review of the names along with another little book recommendation, which is very kind of her. One of my favourite books is one that's very similar to the names. I read it a few years ago. It's called The Versions of Us by Laura Barnett. And it's based around a couple and then it shows how they meet and then it splits into three alternate realities based on the different potential outcomes of the meeting. so as soon as I heard about the names I knew it was going to be right up my street because I honestly live for the the what-ifs and you know if one decision had been made even slightly differently how much of an effect that can have on the life of one person or multiple people and the names just scratched at it and yeah it was just such a good book and one that I think is going to stay with me for a long time.

4:55Thanks Hannah and yeah you're so right this book is going to stay with me for a long time too. Okay, Claire now, who has some gorgeous tweeting birds in the background. What a great book club choice. I've always been fascinated by how names can shape who we are. So as soon as I read the blurb for this book, I knew I had to pick it up. And I'm so glad I did. The novel dives into some pretty heavy themes, like the power of choice, domestic violence and the strength of the mother's love. But it does so in a way that it's just as beautiful as it is heartbreaking while reading I went through a roller coaster of emotions one minute I was angry then frustrated then sad and any book that can make me feel all of these things is doing something right I can't believe that this is Florence Knupp's debut it's seriously impressive and I'm really glad I read it thank you Claire and birds yeah I'm also absolutely fascinated by how name shape is clear.

5:51So interesting. And Florence and I talk about that in this very chat.

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8:30Right, let's crack on. Here's the show.

8:54Hey Florence! Hello, lovely to be here. Well, I'm so thrilled to be talking to you today. We have absolutely loved reading your book, The Names. It's our happy place book club pick for June and it's just such a clever idea. I mean, I remember hearing about this book, I think it was about a year ago when I met Jenny Godfrey and she was telling me all about it. And I was like, oh, my God, I need to read this book. I mean, just for people that haven't read it as yet, there's obviously still time. I just literally drove past a bookshop with like a whole window of your books in the front window. Can you give us a sort of a loose synopsis without giving away too much?

9:33Yeah, so it's a kind of sliding doors, what if style novel, and it opens in the wake of the 1987 storm, which I'm guessing a lot of your listeners might not remember, but it was it was our biggest storm for over 200 years and came almost completely without warning. And so when Cora sets out the following morning to register the birth of her son with her nine-year-old daughter Maya, the world's already in complete disarray. And her husband Gordon intends for her to name the child after him. He's a really well-respected local doctor, but a really kind of terrifying beast of a husband at home. and the story then splits into three depending on the name she does give him in one version of their lives he is Bear which is the name suggested by his elder sister because she thinks that a boy with that name would be kind of soft and cuddly but also really brave and strong in another version of their lives he's Julian which is the name his mum set her heart on and in a third version he is named after his father and is Gordon and the story follows them across 35 years and kind of really looks at how all the different possibilities that can unfold from a single decision like that.

10:53Yeah I mean that's the thing that just I couldn't stop thinking about was I guess we don't give our our birth names too much thought we're just you know we just crack on with life but it must inform so many micro moments of our lived experience has that made you think a lot about your own name and maybe was there a story that you've heard from your parents as to why they named you Florence well they my mum was um so when the magic roundabout first appeared I think it was like a French stop motion animation that my mum said was incredibly chic and and she fell in love with them there was a character called Florence on it and she fell in love with Florence's white lace-up shoes and so I was called after her but it was I think there's that thing that in many ways your your name feels like it comes to represent you and when I was six we my family moved across the world to live in Australia and at that point it would kind of last been a popular name in about 1908 or something like that and so for me I suppose my name felt like you know standing at the front of a class and you don't quite have the right uniform yet and you're not probably going to have the same lunch as everyone else and your accent's odd I would have really loved a name that felt just more like a way of fitting in because my name felt slightly like saying I'm Florence and I'm probably going to be a bit odd and not fit in that well whereas when I was a teenager and I think wanted to kind of embrace my individuality a bit more it just it felt like a really welcome thing and as an adult it just feels like a name I just exist in without even thinking it just feels really like me yeah I know but it's as you say it's so interesting you know your experience of school may very well have been slightly different because of your name I think you know I I've definitely thought about it a lot my I was definitely the only fern at my school I've got kind of a slightly odd first name and stand out kind of second name and you know you get either picked out and sort of highlighted because it is unique and cool, or, you know, very easy to create some pretty inventive nicknames around a slightly odd name.

13:06So you do know there's something slightly different about you at that point, just from having the name. And I guess that must inform something even psychologically, if not, you know, in your actual day-to-day living. It's such a fascinating subject. Why did you choose the three names Bear, Julian and Gordon? Did they have a particular sort of resonance for you? What was the decision making around those names? So with Gordon, I wanted a really kind of traditional name that would be the kind of name that would be handed down through generations. And then when I was thinking through suitable names and thought of Gordon, I then thought, OK, so there's a scene in the book where we see Gordon as a 14 year old and he's going out to a party and he's quite socially awkward and his parents have gone away for the weekend and he opens the pantry door before he's ready to go and sees a bottle of Gordon's gin and has that instant moment of recognition of, oh, that's my drink.

14:03And even though he doesn't like the taste of it that much initially, he kind of pushes through that barrier. And that I think is kind of quite a defining moment for him. And with Bear, which is the name picked by his elder sister, I wanted a name that felt really expansive that a child would just have all this space to grow into and be exact and and bear feels like a real thing of contrasts in a way because it is soft and cuddly but also brave and strong and then julian came to me slightly later i mean they the names all came really easily but julian was slightly later and i think um i've heard a couple of authors actually joanne Harris in particular talking about a magic alchemy that sometimes happens with writing and Gillian was an odd one because when I looked it up it means Skyfather and it just fit so neatly into being Cora's choice because she was then able to say to her husband look it's a tribute to you it means father while in her head thinking Skyfather he'll be elevated above all these awful Earth Fathers.

15:14And so that name felt like a real gift when I realised what that meant. Yeah, it's so brilliant. Well, you know, it is such a unique idea. And I think that's why so many people have been talking about it long before its publication date. Where did this unique idea come from? Did you start with the concept of having a character with three different names? Was that the sort of the inception of it? So I think it's odd as well, because when I started writing it I didn't feel like it was actually a particularly unique I didn't have an awareness that oh this is a really good hook and actually when I first told my husband and sister about it they just said not really sure because I think at that stage you you don't know quite how to pitch your novel and how to tell other people about it before it's written but I plowed on with it anyway and and it's and I but I think it's because I'm really interested in the things that make us us whether that's our family and our upbringing or our friends or our material circumstances or you know a name which is the first thing that we're given and then we take it everywhere with us and that feels like well it can't to me that feels like it can't not shape us often in ways that we're probably never even aware of because you know it's interacting with fate and chance the whole time so maybe we'll you know someone will see our name in a pile of cvs for an interview and not call us in because of our it's so i guess it's affecting us in ways that we'll never know about a lot of the time yeah without a doubt i mean this is your debut novel you've you've had books published before but your previous career i'm sure you're still you're doing both i'm imagining um is in the quilting world yes um just to go back a bit as well when it's we say it's my debut novel I've actually been writing since 1999 and had um and kind of had a lot of half-finished novels and then a novel that was rejected in 2019 so to me it doesn't feel quite like yeah I bet um in terms of the the really lovely thing for me was that I don't tend to I'm a massive overthinker and so I don't tend to write about anything to do with my own life when I'm writing.

17:34And so I didn't want to write about quilts directly, but writing about things that felt slightly adjacent and that were creative was just so joyful for me. And there's a bit in the novel where Julian is introduced to silversmithing when he's around 14. And it talks about him feeling set alight by it. And, you know, feels almost too alive to sleep and just almost, you know, his mind just whirring with ideas and he's so excited about it. And that's exactly how I felt about fabric and making kind of quilts and also dressmaking. And it was really lovely for me to be able to write about creativity as a step removed from myself.

18:17Yeah. Oh my God, that feeling. I mean, I love painting and I know that feeling where you're just so excited in the moment and time doesn't exist and you lose yourself in it and you just feel so lucky to have that little, well, for you it's not a hobby, but for me painting is a hobby and to have that as a little extra just feels so special. So, you know, I love that bit that you've just described of Julian discovering that because I totally understand that sort of visceral experience you have when you're getting creative. This is Hannah Burner from Giggly Squad. O-Pill is the first over-the-counter daily birth control pill available in the U.S.

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19:34Use code Giggly for 25 % off your first month of O-Pill at O-P-I-L-L dot com. That's code Giggly at O-P-I-L-L dot com. Birth control in your control. We love to see it. Hi, this is Knox from the Popcast with Knox and Jamie. And maybe like us at the Popcast, you also know people who have been smokers or vapors. And Zen is the one product it seems like everyone is talking about. Because there are many good reasons to make a change to Zen nicotine pouches. Reasons like Zen nicotine pouches are still America's number one choice for smoke-free, hands-free nicotine satisfaction. And you can choose between 10 varieties, each variety available in either 3 or 6 milligrams.

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21:24How did you find the process of writing this book? Because like you say, you've been writing for a very long time and it is a real mountain to climb. It feels at times like you might never summit because you're just like, when does it end? And you could possibly edit forever and ever without ever hunting it in because you just want it to be the best it can be. How did you find that process? This book felt like, the structure felt like a real gift in that it kind of held me as a writer because it, so we revisit each version of this boy's life in turn every seven years. And part of that was because it would have felt like handing the reader a kind of amorphous blob to just have a, it would have felt too much to just not have any kind of structure.

22:17Whereas to say, this is what we're going to be doing and to hopefully make it clear to follow felt like then it wasn't too much to ask them to hold these three versions of a life in their mind. But also as a writer, it was a real gift because I think at the start, my starting point was thinking, well, how would each of these boys immediately have been changed, a by their name, but also by their father's reaction to finding out their name, which sets each of their lives spinning off in a very different direction. And then thinking, so what's the end point as a 35-year-old man, which is where we leave each of these versions of their life?

22:55What's the point I would have wanted him to get to emotionally? And once I'd worked those things out, the revisiting them every seven years between those two points were like stepping stones that I just had to get safely across to the other side. I think often in novels, we have a kind of boggy middle. And in this, it just felt like, oh, just one more chapter in this year for this person. And it just, yeah, it made it feel so much easier for me to have this very clear structure. Did it feel like it was just pouring out of you? Was it flowing? I think, because the idea is so, so strong. And like you say, you've got this structure to work to.

23:33Did filling in those gaps feel extremely fluid because I think again you know you can have it could be a whole book or it could be a part of a book where it's just pouring out of you and then sometimes you know I've had non-fiction where I felt so blocked and like oh my god I need to just move away from it for a moment to try and clear my head and not overthink it and and sort of see what might inspire the next part of it and I think similar with fiction you know we're constantly inspired by it could be you know seeing a bird fly in the sky and it you know makes you think of something completely different or or you want to describe that inner scene or we're constantly informed by our own lives even if we're not articulating it exactly did you have blocks or or did it did it flow quite nicely it was a really good experience because I think it's become smoothed out in my mind with time in that I wrote this compared to the previous half novels and novel that I'd written I wrote this relatively quickly and I think the first draft was done in about five months which for me is really quick yeah it's cool and it was then put in a drawer for three months and I rewrote quite a bit of the second half but in my mind it had become as though it was just this very smooth and easy process and I looked back over I so I always write in notepads longhand first and then type it up at the end of the day really and uh well I look I got out all my old notepads the other day and looked um was just it was a really it was a very very reassuring thing to do in terms of writing book two because it really reminded me oh no actually it wasn't as easy as I've remembered it and look at this piece of writing this was absolutely horrible and it was and there's that you know there's often that point with fiction where I think I don't know whether you find this but where you're writing and you you have to write to get there but you just know it's sounding so where you're kind of slightly cringing at yourself and you know you're not getting it and you can hear so much of your self-imposing voice onto these awkward characters that you're kind of puppeteering around.

25:39And it was really lovely to be reminded, actually, that was there very much in this book as well and that it wasn't as easy as kind of my memories made it feel. Yeah, like childbirth, you've forgotten all the shit bits. Completely, yeah. I mean, I've spoken to so many authors, whether it's in this medium or just mates who have written. Predominantly, I think this applies to fiction, but maybe it's all books, that you go through this cycle of, oh my God, I've got the idea. This is so exciting. I can't wait. And then you get to doing the first edit and you're like, is this a pile of shit? This might be the worst thing that's ever been written.

26:19And then you edit again, you go, I am so bored, blah, blah, blah. Here we go again. And then you almost come full circle. or maybe there's a bit of fear before it's actually published. And then when it's out in the world, you're sort of like, it is what it is and I've set it free. It's such a painstaking emotional process to go through. Yeah, no, it really, really is, isn't it? And I think as well when it's the process of being a debut and knowing that you're well, it feels very different to publishing nonfiction to me. I don't remember having any anxiety at all before I published nonfiction where you may feel, I think your non-fiction's been more personal than mine, so you may have had a different experience with that.

27:01But writing about quilts felt very, I didn't feel anxious about that going out into the world. Whereas this, I think, well, I think in some ways it's partly that one of the things that probably draws me to writing fiction is that I'm a naturally kind of quite a quiet, homebody kind of person. And so realising that you're actually going to have to exist out in the world as a kind of 3D person and to publicize your novel when I think that muscle of writing it tends to be that I work out what I want to say and what I'm thinking with my pen on the page and where it often takes me quite a long time to work out exactly what that is and so it feels like a really it's a lovely safe space because you can go very much at your own pace whereas when you're actually speaking it feels like a bit it's it's so much more I mean you're obviously brilliant at this but it's so much more immediate and it's something that I've actually had to try and teach myself to do because it simply wasn't there as a as a skill well I mean it is scary because you know like you say we're and we're all doing so much whether it's on social media or podcasting or whatever it is and it sort of lives that's the bit that's scary and I still have this after all these years is that that lives on that voice you know it's on the internet or it's on the telly or whatever and you can't take it back and it might not be how you feel next year or in five years or you know it's it is a scary thing I think also people put so much weight now behind every word uttered and if you've said the right thing or the wrong thing and it and it can be so muddling but I guess also the other nerve-wracking thing about fiction specifically is, I don't know if you felt like this, but I felt like it was such a big ask to have other people believe in a made up world that I'd created.

28:54Like in my head, it is vivid. It is vibrant. I know these characters, but to assume that other people are going to feel the same felt like a huge ask. But with that in mind, people have lapped up your book and they, I mean, obviously everybody's idea of your characters and the world you've created is going to be a slightly different iteration of everybody because it's you know I I can picture those characters very vividly I can picture the house they're in very vividly but it will look completely different to how you've imagined it which is the sort of I guess the moment of surrender that every fiction author has to have but but it is you know people are absolutely loving this book and it is being talked about relentlessly in the best possible way how have you dealt with that because it's wonderful and magical to have people love something that you've created but it's also really overwhelming I'm imagining yeah it's I think after the experience in 2019 where I had a novel that was rejected I kind of put my hope in quite a kind of small jar because I I realised I kind of wanted that, a self-protection, I guess.

30:03But I suppose with being published, I did also realise that having the pain of putting those characters away and really realising that, oh, you really need a reader for them to be able to live out in the world because it's that transfer of my imagination to someone else's that keeps them alive. I suppose after that, I realised that the trade-off you make for being published is that you have to accept that readers might take it into their minds and A, make something completely different of what you said and also may not like it at all. And that actually that's the trade-off and that I have to be fine with that.

30:44And I think I feel so, you know, this is something that I've wanted since I think I was about eight years old. I've wanted to write books. And so to me, it feels like a tradeoff that I was really willing to make. And I suppose it's come as a total surprise to find, oh, actually, there's lots of people who like it. You know, I'd braced myself for the other auction. and it's kind of it's been amazing that oh it's people people are you know of course there's some people who don't like it but generally kind of people have been saying really lovely things no people are loving it and you know lean into that that is the best thing ever people are loving this book we've had nothing but beautiful comments on any posts that we do on our book club instagram certainly i'm so pleased just lap it up lap all of it up it's so deserved well look we're so thrilled to be talking about the names and to have had you for our june book club pick what i must ask you towards well there's two things i'm gonna ask you the first is are you writing another fiction um as i've got my idea and um it's one of those things though where it's kind of like i've got my idea and by the time I sit down with it it might have kind of be like I might not like the idea anymore but I think I have my idea but I feel like the bit of myself that does publicity can't also write so I'm kind of waiting to until all the publicity is done because I'm so worried about starting it and then coming back to it and it's like trying to kind of resuscitate a dead animal like type of thing.

32:19I hate that feeling I hate that I've had like I started writing a book and I pressed pause on it now I'm writing another book and I had a few weeks out because I was really busy and it's like what is this I don't even know I don't recognize my own writing what the hell is it yeah awful feeling I hate it like that's a very very sensible idea and I will finish by asking you Florence where is your happy place oh gosh my bed I do all my writing from my bed if it wouldn't be really depressing for my no I know I don't you would like it would be too depressing for my husband but if if it wouldn't be depressing for him to just kind of find me in memory of my pyjamas all the time sitting in bed writing that's where I'd be I think I mean you deserve to do book two directly from bed like do it with a heated blanket maybe I need a day bed dream yes yeah one that props up slightly I love that yeah um Florence thank you so much and good luck with the the rest of promoting the book and your next fiction that hopefully you'll write soon thank you so much been a total honor god Florence I'm so in awe of Florence what a bloody good idea Not only did she have a unique, amazing idea, but she actually went through with it.

33:24No mean feat to write a novel with a unique idea like that, especially when you've been turned down by publishers before. But thank goodness she persevered. What a book. So it's a new month now and the book we're reading in July is called Don't Let Him In. And it's by Lisa Jewel. Oh, this book. I think about this book all the time. I miss this book. I read it in about a week. Okay, here we go. He seems to be the perfect man. In fact, you think he might literally be made for you. So before you know it, he's moved into your house and your heart. But then he starts leaving for a few days at a time and you don't know where he's gone or who he's with.

34:05Details about his past start coming to light. If you could go back in time, would you tell yourself not to let him in? Oh my God, it's so brilliant. And it's really exciting to read. Lisa Jewell is going to be joining me on stage at the Happy Place Festival in Gunnersbury Park for a live edition of the Happy Place Book Club podcast, which I'm so excited for. I can't wait to meet Lisa. If you want to follow us on Instagram, we're at happyplacebookclub. That is where you want to be if you want to get involved in this book club chat and find out more behind the scenes stuff and all the things we get out of our brilliant authors.

34:39Okay, until the next time we chat, a massive thanks again to Florence, to the producer Anushka Tate at Happy Place Studios and to you. I love you.

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