Break free from people pleasing, with Keisha Buchanan, Megan Barton-Hanson, and Jade Scott

0:00Fearne Cotton: Hello, welcome to Happy Place with me, Fearne Cotton. Today, let's unpack what it really means to be likeable, shall we? I'm chatting to Keisha Buchanan, Megan Barton-Hanson and Jade Scott. I think people, they really couldn't get their head around that in some situations, I'm such an introvert, I'm such a kind, sensitive, little Pisces soul. and then in another breath I'm like no if I fancy that man I'm gonna go for what I want I'm gonna get him so I think that was hard for people to wrap their head around that women are multifaceted I don't know anyone who wakes up in the morning just like I'm just you know I don't mind if I'm not like I was being called defensive a lot and I was like what am I supposed to do not sit here and defend myself I'd walk into my situations just thinking that no one likes me I was like god like what if people see me as just like really weak like vulnerable young woman because that's not who I am.

0:55Like on the front of the sun it's like muggy Megan this, like Megan's seedy passes his stripper. And I can't like go into people's brains and control the way they think, like they have a right to think what they think, have their thoughts and like that's okay and that's been the biggest thing.

1:10Fearne Cotton: I was actually like the most hated person it felt like in Britain. Oh my god, I honestly, I am bursting with excitement about this episode. I just want to get to it, So I don't want to waffle on too much. But basically, the idea for this chat came about last year at some point. I was thinking up ideas with a group of brilliant minds I work with about what we could do podcast wise when my new book, Likeable, comes out. And I've got to shout out the exact person who had this idea. Simon Jones, who I work with, said, wouldn't it be interesting to chat to different people who have had very different experiences in the public eye about being disliked?

1:48Fearne Cotton: disliked because that is obviously one of the big risks of being in the public eyes that you're publicly mocked humiliated or just simply disliked and I loved that idea but so we've been working on this for ages getting the right collection of people together and I think we've just hit the nail on the head with this incredible group of women who I learned so much from today and I'm so grateful for their time and their company. If you've not heard me waffling on about my book recently, it's called Likeable, and it's essentially all about how much we change and morph and shapeshift to be liked by those around us, or even people that we don't know, and the lengths that we go to, and personally, how detrimental I have found that in my life, and also what we can do about it, and how we can learn to live alongside the discomfort of being unliked, but also just the discomfort of pissing people off a bit.

2:45Fearne Cotton: as well. That's what I feel deeply passionately about, changing for everyone, for all women and men, because men deal with this as well. But I am specifically speaking to women today. So let's talk about these amazing women. Join me, three women who have particularly interesting relationships with or experiences of being liked or disliked. Keisha is an original member of the Sugar Babes. I mean, I've known Keisha for over 20 years because we've both been at it for a long time. I used to interview Keisha all the time back in the day and I've seen her sporadically over the years. In the late 90s and noughties, she was often labelled difficult by the tabloids.

3:27Fearne Cotton: She was hard to work with, in inverted commas, and was often blamed when there was a switch in band members. More generally, the band was known for being quite direct and they didn't buy into the sort of forced cheerfulness the media generally expected of girl groups. Megan Barton Hanson was on Love Island in 2018. She'd worked as a glamour model before entering the villa and was incredibly open about her sexuality and sensuality. but she was labelled a man-eater and a homewrecker during her season of Love Island and has continued to be criticised for her sexual openness and confidence, quite frankly.

4:05Fearne Cotton: Then we've got Jade Scott, who I was absolutely captivated by on the latest series of Traitors. My kids rarely give a toss about anything I'm doing at work, but when I told my daughter Honey that I was meeting Jade today, she flipped out, absolutely flipped. We loved Jade on Traitors so, so much. It was fascinating and saddening to watch her being perceived as either too defensive or just too emotional by her fellow contestants and overly manipulative by the public who were taking issue with her not smiling as much as they wanted her to. For fuck's sake. So does it matter if we're liked? Who is it most important to be liked by?

4:52Fearne Cotton: How can we stop people pleasing without putting up boundaries that leave us feeling lonely? How can we let each other grow and change without putting them down? I have a lot of questions for these brilliant women.

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5:59That's growtherapy.com slash start now. growtherapy.com slash start now. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan. Hi, this is Matt from P1 with Matt and Tommy and this episode is sponsored by eBay. The cars you'll find on eBay are just different. They come with a story that you can't wait to share. Like this 1973 Dodge Charger on eBay that has been tucked away in an Arizona barn for over 40 years, only 55 ,000 miles, and somehow in great running order. It even has a rare sunroof. Suddenly, a car that was hidden for decades is being delivered in just a few clicks with eBay's secure purchase.

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7:18slash ACAST.

7:22Fearne Cotton: To this glorious chat in just a moment, but can we just have a little second to talk about the new Happy Place edit box? We got a new one. It came straight after the other one because the other one sold out straight away. This one's all about celebrating International Women's Day. But you know what I love about the idea of breaking barriers because that's what it says on the front of the box. It doesn't always have to be loud. It can just be choosing yourself. or setting a boundary or starting something new, having your say, living your life how you want to live it. This edit box is a nod to that spirit.

7:57Fearne Cotton: Each product in the box comes from a female owned or female led business, which we love supporting on our Happy Place Marketplace and has been chosen specially to support you through your own journey. Whether your thing right now is leading, building, caring or gently creating. As always, there's over£100 worth of products in there that are all yours for just£29.99. You can head to happyplaceofficial.co.uk to get your hands on your very own Happy Place edit box. Right, should we do it? Here's the show.

8:54Fearne Cotton: hey ladies hi so excited about this Megan Keisha Jade thank you so much for being here today this is a subject that I know we can have a really juicy chat about so much so that I wrote a book about this subject matter because I think I realized at a certain point in my life that that likability had such a weight to it and it was actually becoming very detrimental. And I think that we are a perfect group of women to have this chat. We've all got our different relationship with that subject matter and the other side of it, which is at times publicly having criticism, critique or assumptions made about you.

9:35Fearne Cotton: We've all been in that boat. So I'm really keen to get all of your thoughts on it. So first of all, a massive bloody thank you.

10:11Fearne Cotton: Thank you. to my detriment what does that subject mean to you or that word mean to you jade i think it's just a bit like making sure that everyone like everyone has this image of you and then making sure that you live up to that image and then you kind of have to follow like a line of expectation so i guess the same kind of thing like compliancy like if i were to branch out and do something a little bit different people kind of be like oh i'm not sure about that and it's kind of like well you grow and evolve right you develop new interests and they're not necessarily gonna align with everyone who follows you no exactly and that's why then we end up showing up as a different version of ourselves it's like a fake I used to perform that was my trick I'll just perform and be like you know this all singing all dancing person so that everyone's like oh she's so fun and she's so full of energy and sometimes I was like I'm exhausted from pretending to be this person that I'm not sometimes I can be quite quiet and reserved but I would have this sort of performative front how about you Keisha what does being likable mean yeah I feel like it was probably more difficult when I was obviously being a part of a group I think there's a lot of comparison so if you are you know maybe if your personality maybe is a bit more louder or if your tone of voice like for me I feel like I've got such a I call it like a colorful tone so it could be high it could be low it could be and I feel like sometimes that made me like extremely paranoid especially if you're sitting next to you know people who maybe speak a bit different to you so there was like a lot of pressure I feel like that I was unaware of and I think same as you I think I've got to a point where I definitely feel like it comes with age too that I'm just actually authentically probably the most myself than I ever have been and just being like here I am this is what it is and I've actually feel like I've gotten and more love from it, more understanding from it, actually, because I feel like now I'm not having to master, try to be like anyone else or try to be like there's no, I'm sure there's always going to be, I'm still in the group now, so I feel like there's always going to be comparisons.

12:15But I think it's different as you get older because you kind of, you're so comfortable within yourself. You sort of understand that like everyone is different. You know that, but I think you put it into practice as you get.

12:27Fearne Cotton: And I think it is a hard one and a lot of it does come with age. I feel the same. I am now pretty okay with turning up as myself on any given day and if people thought that I was a bit quiet or whatever it is or too loud or whatever the mood was that day then not my problem I'm going to go home and crack on with my day and not lose sleep over it whereas I would before I would be lying awake going I said this thing and they might think this and you know you go in into those awful spirals wondering what the other person thinks we've got to hopefully get to a place where we where we care less essentially yeah um Megan what about you what does being likable mean yeah I feel like a lot of what you girls covered like when you're younger you just want to conform and fit in with everything else like whether you're male female at school it's just you want to be like everyone else you're all like cardboard cutouts of each other yeah and I remember like my first memory I was watching like top of the pops and I was like really like enjoying this like heavy rock song I was like girls don't like that Meg and like she said that I think from a place of wanting to protect me because back then girls were very girly listening to Spice Girls whatever and she's doing that from what she's been taught generations on so I don't know whether it's like because you get older you get more confident or whether it's society is slowly letting us branch out and be more individual because definitely growing up in like primary school senior school everybody had to conform and be the same or you'd be ostracized I think it's probably a bit of both I reckon I think we all have like it's human nature for us to want to be accepted by our peer group so certainly at secondary school me and my mates who are still my best mates today would all dress the same have the same hairstyle wear the same kicker shoes you know we all fit into this little pod where we were this homogenous group because we wanted to belong and we still all when we sit there talking have identical intonation and you know we've sort of morphed into one another but I think when we start letting that spill into like every social situation we're in and we are like chameleons changing in any situation that's when I certainly started to question why am I doing that why am I you know changing for these people I don't even know half the time yeah it's terrifying and I do feel like there's still like parts of me that like wants to be like I don't know anyone who wakes up in the morning and just like I'm just you know I don't mind if I'm not liked today you know I feel like that it is important to me like that people I show up well and people like me um but I think it becomes a problem when you start to uh not be authentic when you start to kind of go against your moral compass you know um to please everyone you know not really speak what's in your mind not stand for you know for I don't know injustices or just things that you uh know deep down inside that's the right thing to do I feel like that's when you the compromise yeah it's when it starts to go left I so agree I don't think the goal in any of this is to be like I couldn't give a fuck I don't care I don't care what anyone thinks yeah I have never met that person and I think even the people that say that they do care deep down we do we care they have to we do care I think for me the biggest lesson has been learning to live alongside knowing that someone out there doesn't like you or even a group of people going, oh God, that hurt.

15:45Fearne Cotton: But actually I'm still okay. Before what I would do is go, oh, I must be bad. I'm bad. Like I'm a bad person. Someone doesn't like me. There must be something wrong with me. And now I can live alongside, okay, I'm just not the person that person likes. And that's where it ends. That's the full stop. let's dig deeper into the very strange relationship that all of us have had with being in the public eye and having outside commentary I mean Keisha we we go back yeah we go back this has been in your life and my life for decades and you do sadly grow used to negative outside commentary we've both you know everybody in the public eye has to deal with that to some you know varying degrees and I have never felt particularly able to cope with it.

16:38Fearne Cotton: I mean, certainly better now. But when I was younger and certainly when social media came to the forefront of our worlds, I just thought, I can't, I'm not thick-skinned. I'm a sensitive person. I can't handle it. When you were first thrust onto the music scene and back when The Sugar Babes started, you were everywhere and there were TV shows to support a band like that, Top of the Pops, kids' TV shows. you were blanket coverage when you released a single that is a bombardment of commentary in in those moments how did you cope with it then well thankfully there wasn't like social media no so I didn't have to see things like firsthand and there was not so much pressure well I will say this that being a part of the sugar babes the good thing about being a part of it was that you know our brand really embraced individuality and not perfection we were actually like they called us like the girl band that you're allowed to like so you know it was okay for us to show up a little bit like uh rough and ready compared to our you know our counterparts but I think that coming on the scene it definitely was I mean just being a teenager definitely wasn't you know easy a lot of the time but it was actually more so coming from the prints the the press like anything like negative that we would see was more so from that point of view I think for me I struggled like for such a long time because I think behind the scenes I guess I felt like there was like more so like a lot of support but I was always told that I wasn't necessarily allowed to like speak up about things that were like maybe like untrue so I didn't really get the the chance to represent and I think you know elephant in the room being the only black girl as well I think that there was sort of like that that narrative there was a lot of things that were obviously not true a lot of narratives and there were you know I could have an interview or something and I could say something and everyone would say the same thing but maybe mine was highlighted in a way that didn't land the way I wanted it to I think the best thing that's happened in my life over the the last like 15 years funny enough is social media even though I'm on the fence about it you can say but yeah now I actually get to be exactly who I am and you know people can just like take me for who I am and then that's it and if there is anything that I don't like that's written which to be fair the press have been like so lovely you know over the last you know few years for a while now um I could just jump online and just like square that off straight away yeah and also I put parameters um probably like I would say maybe over 11 years ago I decided that I wasn't going to read anything so even on Instagram I'll post and you know you open the app and you're like sort of see you can see you know comments I actually don't go through them because I've got this theory and I think that if you are given so much love and admiration that's not too good for you either you're so right you're amazing you're this it's like right I actually I show up and I go I did the best that I can and hopefully that's good enough and I'm also like I critique myself quite a lot so that's just my personality so if I feel like I need to fix something I just will but sitting there having people's opinions about you know your character or how you look and stuff reading that every day it's just not good for you and it was the best decision that I ever made so healthy I've not I don't read anything at all and if I do it's like by my choice because I've maybe posted something seen one of my friends you know and I might like comment but I actually don't know it's so healthy I love that yeah I mean you have been brilliantly vocal more recently about if we look at back in the day and we all know like the print press back in the day was vital it was so brutal and they're pushing narratives but a lot of it was blatant racism that's what we're looking at here it was racism and depicting you as something different whether it was difficult or the narrative of being an angry black woman and things that are deeply disrespectful and you were meant to just sit there and silently take that yeah I was always just told that today's news will be tomorrow's shit paper and so like I said behind the scenes people always told me to ignore what was being said but then we would get in front of like the world and I just didn't really always feel like that it was like the same support if that made sense um and it was really difficult and I think I was extremely defensive so I'd walk into most situations just thinking that no one likes me and I think what people didn't realize was outside of you know my workspace I would I was a teenager who had to go out and face other teenagers who then wanted to like as they say test my gangster because of all the things that they read and so there was a lot of times where you know I'd have to like lock myself in like toilets at you know different places because I could hear that people were saying things that maybe they had read so it was a really really hard time and you know but I feel like people weren't as educated and weren't aware as you know and I think looking back I look at certain interviews I definitely came in like I'm gonna act like this doesn't bother me and I think when you do that it comes across as quite defensive and a bit aggy and like I said the best thing I ever did was go actually I'm just going to be myself and as soon as I did that I'm not joking it was almost like and obviously times have changed there's a lot of work to do obviously a long way to go but yeah I just feel like it was a completely different thing and you know I think that you know now having conversations like this are like extremely helpful because then you feel sort of like acknowledged you know your your voice and your experience and that's been really helpful too it's amazing I love it and also there's something that irks me massively about women in general not having the space to be angry yeah we're allowed to be fuming yeah I'm often livid about things yeah we're told you know that's not the done thing like you need to contain that and and and show another emotion not anger not it's not it's not allowed I I mean, much actually like the Sugar Babes, when you started out, you weren't coming in like the Spice Girls or Atomic Kitten All Smiles.

22:44Fearne Cotton: You were yourselves and you were teenagers who were incredibly talented. And it wasn't like we're going to be like stage school kids. You weren't that. And that's, I think, the thing that marks you differently to everybody else. But likewise, Jay, when you were on Traitors, you weren't sat there grinning your head off the whole time. And rightly so, because you had other contestants, namely Amanda, who were really targeting you, which I'm imagining in that stressful situation being filmed 24-7 feels pretty awful. So why would you be sat there smiling? But that's something that people felt they needed to comment on.

23:21And it was also just like I was being called defensive a lot. And I was like, what am I supposed to do? Not sit here and defend myself. and I can have a temper and then that was kind of like well so many people are going to watch this and I don't want them to see that side of me do you know what I mean and then that like made me super self-conscious because I you know I was at that table a lot of time and a lot of time I was sad but a lot of the time I was actually livid and I couldn't swear and I had to come up with a way to get my point across without you know being bullish about it which oftentimes I felt you know that kind of regard wasn't shown to me in the same way but yeah it was it was hard work I

24:04Fearne Cotton: thought you dealt with all of it impeccably well and also nor did anybody say about any of the men around that table why aren't they smiling all the time yeah they could sit there looking brooding and serious or just be themselves without a smile on their face without commented on without being picked on now I literally say this to a lot of people that how you know how do you deal with it because you're more quiet, you're more reserved. There's a lot to go through. And I say, well, if I was a guy, I wouldn't be going through this. I wouldn't be put under a magnifying glass. No, you wouldn't at all.

24:34Fearne Cotton: I mean, also having had your everyday life prior to entering Traitors. And then, you know, Traitors is a huge show. You've got millions of people watching. People are obsessed with it. Me and my kids absolutely love it. But you've also got news outlets commenting on it. It becomes a real cultural zeitgeist thing that is in everybody's homes. How, I mean, I find this fascinating with anyone that's been on any TV show of that size, how you process everything. When you come out the other side, you've been in the bubble, you've been in that world and then you've got to deal with, oh, this is what strangers I've never met are saying about me or think about me.

25:13it was just like the articles where they'd kind of unload all my basically life trauma right it's not something that I hide behind I wear it like a shield I'm very happy to talk about it I think they're topics that need to be spoken about but it's the way they phrase it like I'm keeping it a secret and if anyone who knows me I don't keep it like a secret but then it's also people you know unexpectedly making tiptocks about my ethnicity it's like why are we having a conversation about the fact i'm a i'm a mixed race a white asian like this i have so many other facets that are so many so much more interesting like i do science i love gaming i love my smarty books let's talk about that like it's just so much more interesting and we can have a conversation about which pokemon i like the best rather than you know the fact i'm half white half asian yeah i think

26:04Fearne Cotton: when people start to pull out things from your life that are your everyday experience like you say the things that you don't think about so much or you don't feel like need to be at the forefront but also when it's your your past and your history and things that you have every right to keep absolutely private that's no one's property but yours that's when I think the lines get really blurry because people assume oh I know I know Jade I've seen her on the telly I I know who she is I know what she's about and it's the I think some of the time when when there's that discord we feel like oh people don't get me they don't they're not seeing me that's the sort of discomfort if they've made an assumption that is wrong or feels jarring it's because it's like oh no you don't you're not seeing the real me and and actually how can an audience truly see anyone on the tv and in the music industry whatever area because we we show a part of ourselves then we go home and there's a whole other version of ourselves exactly and it's like you know I went in there to play a game I the only thing I thought about was the fact that I cried a lot which is fine I process my emotions there and then and it's overwhelming and I was like god like what if people see me as this like really weak like vulnerable young woman because that's not who I am and I was just so worried about how that was just gonna come across but then yeah after some time I was like it is what it is and also I mean if I went on traitors I would be a wreck there's no way I would get through that in one piece it's so tense and stressful the pressure you're put under yeah I defy anyone to go on that into that setting and not feel massive emotions you'd have to be a robot yeah but it's also I guess you're also competing with the fact that people point at the tv and go it's so obvious right you're doing a phd like why don't you get it and I'm like well I'm not doing a phd in catching traitors no and also that's so easily said from home it's much like when I watch the master singer and think I could do that no I couldn't like we we all have great ideas about how we'd be on a tv show it's all bollocks Megan I'm very keen to talk to you about your experience post love island because it felt like a lot of the critique was particularly cruel and particularly personal how did you deal with the fallout that people were calling you all sorts of names and putting tags on you how how did you deal with that it was it was so bad like but the only good saving grace is I came out with a partner and in that moment I was like I was 24 I was like oh my god this is so exciting and because I had him I was like oh as long as I'm in love and he doesn't believe all these headlines I did get briefed by someone from ITV and they I was like look this headline is run this has happened there's a headline that my dad was so ashamed of me that he fled the country and I was like oh my goodness even though he had come on you know they have the family day where your parents come on he'd come on to Love Island so I was like oh dear and like on the front of the sun it's like muggy Megan this like Megan Seedy passes a stripper I was like oh this is bad but because I was in that bubble at the time with whereas I was like oh okay it's fine and I think really it hit me maybe like a year after when that relationship broke down the career wasn't so fast-paced I'm not doing everything like something every day I had time to process and I was like oh god I was actually like the most hated person it felt like in Britain for that I don't know how long I was in there for like eight weeks um but in a way in hindsight I think it has taught me to not want to be that most like likable person that I'd always try to conform when I was younger if I hung out with more boys I'll be a bit more tomboy if I hung out with a bit more like indie kids I'll be that person if I hung out with girly girls I'll be that person I think really Meg you can't please everyone you've got one time on this planet so you're just gonna have to do you I think people they really couldn't get their head around that in some situations I'm such an introvert.

30:04I'm such a kind, sensitive, little Pisces soul. And then in another breath, I'm like, no, if I fancy that man, I'm going to go for what I want. I'm going to get him. So I think that was hard for people to wrap their head around that women are multifaceted. We can do more than one thing. We can be shy in one situation, but be like sexual in this situation and go for what they want and be assertive. But I think people really struggled back then to get their head around that. So, yeah, it was kind of tricky.

30:33Fearne Cotton: How did it impact your confidence? Because I think that's the one thing, no matter if people are in the public eye or not, when you've got could be one individual who is giving you grief or, you know, somebody out there doesn't like you and they're trying to mess with your happiness. I think the first thing to get attacked is confidence because you start to lose a sense of self I certainly did when I had tough times when the press were writing horrible things about me or when I was at Radio 1 you know you've got these constant stream of messages that you're looking through and you've got you know lovely ones and then there's like one awful one or a death threat you know really serious things I'm sure some of us here have dealt with that awful awful side of it you start to lose a sense of who you are because there's the diluting of your personality I became as sort of beige as I could like just be as middle of the road as possible so I don't say anything that anyone can latch on to which is not who I am as a person at all but also just confidence to walk into a room with other humans in it and be like hey how you doing But, you know, I feel very confident in walking into a room now and excited to interact with other people.

31:45Fearne Cotton: But at that point, I was a hermit. I didn't want to go anywhere. I didn't want to see anybody. It's the confidence that goes and it can take a long time to get it back. How did it impact your confidence? Yeah. So like I say, at first, it didn't really affect me because I was in that bubble with the new partner. I was my schedule was so busy. I didn't really have time to stop and process. but then when I did it's like it it does chip away because you're like almost walking on eggshells you're like I don't want to put a foot wrong because I'm getting come out from this angle this angle you just want to like not hear anymore because how I say it to like a lot of my close friends or family the average person who's not in the public eye and yeah obviously I signed up to do that show but I didn't think the scrutiny would be as intense as it was um but the average person they'll have their work colleagues family and friends their partners and that's all that they really get judged by or random trolls if they have their profile set to public yes whereas with me it's like I've got journalists grown men and like you said earlier like a lot of the media the headlines they're so negative and then that fuels more trolls and it's like the next thing they'll be like be kind it's like you're running the nasty narrative to like incite all these trolls yeah so it definitely did chip away at my confidence but I think with age taking a step back I'm not at first when I came out it's very competitive to be like oh my god I don't want to be forgotten about I need to post every day I need to do this and that wasn't me like I'm not that girl I love to just like walk my dog be a bit of a geek like do my own thing so I think once I stepped away from that I'm actually living life for me not because I'm trying to be performative or keep up with what I should be doing because like certain managements have told me to do this I'm just living my life so I think that's like rebuilt the confidence not like conforming to what's expected of me or like ex-Love Islander for example yeah it's so it's so easy to walk down that path I think of of looking for that validation in that way but like you say you're only going to get it from being you doing life on your terms and your confidence then so he comes back because like one thing my I write about this in the book one thing my friend Claire has said to me repeatedly and it always sticks with me and it's quite a harsh way of saying it but I think I needed a wake-up call when she first said it was it doesn't matter who's saying what about you you'll be okay as long as you don't turn the gun on yourself because that's what I would do I would have however many people saying oh you're this or you're that or whatever and then I'd go yeah I am I am all I'm an awful person and then all of a sudden I've nicked their narrative and put it on myself.

34:27Fearne Cotton: As long as you don't do that, you're all right. You can feel upset, angry, like there's injustice, and then you can get on with it and move on with your day. So I think you're doing it in the best possible way.

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35:19Grow accepts over 100 insurance plans, including Medicaid in some states. Sessions average about$21 with insurance, and some pay as little as$0, depending on their plan. Visit growtherapy.com slash start now to get started. That's growtherapy.com slash start now. growtherapy.com slash start now. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan. Hi, this is Matt from P1 with Matt and Tommy, and this episode is sponsored by eBay. The cars you'll find on eBay are just different. They come with a story that you can't wait to share. Like this 1973 Dodge Charger on eBay that has been tucked away in an Arizona barn for over 40 years, only 55 ,000 miles and somehow in great running order.

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36:59Fearne Cotton: Jade, how did it impact your confidence? You go back and integrate into your life, doing your PhD. How did your confidence levels feel? um I think by the time it was all being released I kind of made my peace with everything that happened um and I was like what's happened has happened but interestingly enough like I used to go to conferences where I had have to like present and also defend my work on some occasions I used to find that terrifying because you know some some occasions you get some men that will come up to you and say did you really do this yourself oh that's nice yeah yeah and then but But now, like, you know, I go to a conference and I'm just so much more relaxed.

37:42And like, you know, and it was really like the round table was hard. Terrifying. But if I can sit through that, what, 12 times? Yes. I can go into a conference fine. So I've actually found it really empowering. I love that.

37:56Fearne Cotton: How brilliant. This is the plus side of all of this shit that we've been through is the resilience you build. It's a given. You are going to get more resilient. do you feel like that Keisha over the years yeah for sure I was thinking about it the other day because I was like with everything that I've been through would I be the person I am like today would I have learned the lessons would I you know my I was always quite like an you know empathetic person but like I'm way more now the things that it's given me is is like a gift and I could have only have learned it through those experiences so yeah but also I feel like now the big thing that I remind myself of is that like what people think is like of me is like actually none of my business and I can't like go into people's brains and control the way they think like they have a right to to think what they think have their thoughts and like that's okay and that's been the biggest thing I think I was reading in the book that there's like so many like I think it's like millions of thoughts thousands of thoughts that go through like the human brain and imagine trying to control that on another human being like you just can't so I think once I'm I'm still I haven't got it fully none of us have we're working this yeah I'm working it out working on it but you know once that sort of um you know once that started to click I think I apply that to like most things and I think yeah I just try to see like the the most positive side out of it like what did I get from it what was the lesson and yeah I just like you know I celebrate that side of it so yeah that is the the best way to do it the best way because I think you know if we can look at the the positives that come from it and and and how you grow through really shitty times or doesn't even have to be that heavier of an instance but just people getting the wrong idea about you or you know meeting you with assumptions like you know all of us will have to deal with that that you turn up and people think they've got you nailed straight away and actually it's quite fun proving people entirely wrong and you know what as well I will say that like your character will outlive any narrative any false narrative like your character your character your character like I always knew who I was like my friends and my family and that will always and you know you've got to take age into perspective experiences and stuff like that you're going to make mistakes you're not going to do it right perfectly all the time but as you mature and as you get older like your real character is like constantly developing and it will outlive any any negative narrative I was seeing from my own journey you know it's so important the key for me in all of this, and it's something that I think I've probably only properly landed on in the last two years, is that for me to navigate any either just sort of random dislike on social media, or people that I know, because, you know, we all have, you know, buttheads with people or have fallouts or situations happening.

40:49Fearne Cotton: The only way for me to navigate that without it completely ruining my confidence and my outlook and my general levels of happiness is to like myself that is the only way that there are no shortcuts to it there's no like five-step trick that we want to see on tiktok that means you can get through it you've got to like yourself and that is fucking hard yeah you've got to forgive yourself from things in the past that's hard yeah because sorry there's not a single person out there listening to this that hasn't fucked up at some point in their lives we all have we all like to pretend we haven't we all have yeah forgive yourself in the past you've got to be happy with how you are on any given day a good day and a very average day a really fucking shit day you're on your period like I am today you feel a bit fucking angry about everything like on those days you've still got to like yourself then it's all of that stuff that I think really saves your bacon in those moments where you feel like the world's against you or one person's against you it's something that I think is probably an everyday discipline I don't suppose any of us can just go yeah I like myself and that's just there forever you know it's an every get up you do it every day but I'm interested to know where you're at at the moment Megan do you like yourself yeah I feel like I'm about to be 32 in like a few days I feel like with age it is getting so much better I'm not being as performative for certain like I said friend groups that I used to be and I'm just doing what makes me feel happy like I'm not here and put on this planet to perform for others or do what they want me to do but I think it's kind of puts pressure on you as society to be like you should be happy every day you should love yourself every day like you say like if you're on your period like you might feel a bit like insecure because you've got a bit of bloating or other days you'll be looking in the mirror and yes you know what I mean like up and down but um yeah I think definitely with age it does get much much better good how about you Keisha yeah I really do I'm so proud of myself I think over the last two years especially I took a stance against you know injustices and really stood up for myself in my personal life and that's actually been the most proud I've been of myself than any of my accolades or anything like that yeah I definitely you know I love the fact that I'm accountable I love the fact that I'm self-reflective and that I you know I see where I still need work um and yeah those are all the things that you know that are important to me and that the people around me you know have a lot of compliments that are outside of my achievements because obviously that's something you can get wrapped up in but it's mostly about the person that I've become and who I'm becoming so yeah I love that how about you Jade um I'd say that I'm still like what I've been an adult for like eight years now so to sit here and say like I'm really happy with myself I'm not going to say that I'd say compared to where I was this time last year so much better in terms of evolution but I think that's the thing like a lot of it is giving yourself grace like making the mistakes being accountable for yourself and then learning from that so you don't have to do it again but that's exactly it you know we're all we're all gonna fuck up again before we die like There's going to be more of it.

44:10Fearne Cotton: And like you say, it's not about never making a mistake again. It's going, oh, I did that and I probably won't do that again. And even if I do, I'll think about it and I probably won't do it after that. You know, it's giving ourselves that grace is so, so important. And also the world supposedly doesn't like women that like themselves because the world needs us. I'm talking about the Western world, needs us to buy shit. so if we don't like ourselves and we think oh I could I could improve I could be a better version of me we're malleable and perfect to control and to get to look at certain things or do certain things that the world wants us to do and if we just go yeah I'm kind of good I'm I don't need to improve at all you know there's I like the idea of self-development because it allows us the grace to mess up and do things differently but improvement I feel uncomfortable with I don't think we need to improve no okay I don't I don't I think we're good as we are we're I'm as good as I can be today and then maybe tomorrow I'll learn a big lesson and I'll I'll grow a bit but I think that whole self-improvement thing thrown at women it makes us hate ourselves we constantly look around and go oh but blah blah looks like this or blah blah's doing that or blah blah's able to cope with this and I and I'm not and it's like what's that about why we're we're forced to compare ourselves to each other constantly which I think makes it feel maybe unsafe to like ourselves like it feels weird to sit here and go yeah I like I like myself feel good about myself yeah I feel like is that you think that it's like a British thing as well yeah yeah I think Americans are much better at going you're great i'm great yeah let's go yeah and we're all going i'm not that great i'm so sorry you know i apologize for everything i've ever done and said you know yeah that's our mental attitude it's um don't you think it's a misogyny thing as well because it's women that compete against each other like not necessarily us and i think as we get like more progressive it's less but from years and years ago you would never get men sitting in a pub being like oh look at your beer belly look at my beer belly who's got the bigger one like put each other down whereas women even if they're friends there'll be like slide digs like oh have you put on a bit of weight or oh this like it's men have wanted us to have like some sort of competition whereas now there's like dance classes I go to with Kaz who's on my season of Love Island we've done like a Muay Thai retreat and you see the beauty in women even if they put themselves down like oh I'm not feeling great today or my hair's greasy I look at that woman and think oh my god you're absolutely beautiful and it's deeper than just her physical appearance it's her aura her energy and how she's like being kind and I think that's the thing that's gone wrong in the like for years we've been like pit against each other as women yeah and I think the more we like stick together it's so cliche but the more we stick together and like boost each other up the happier we'll be ourselves as well I agree the judgment on women from other women is immense and it's something that I've thought about so much because on one hand if we want to rebel against that the obvious thing might be to go well I don't give a shit what I look like and I'm just going to turn up whatever it's like no actually I'm I probably have been conditioned to some extent that I want to look nice and a certain way and maybe that has come from the patriarchy but I'm sure I want to change it anytime soon I'm still going to shave my armpits even if it's like hairy armpits are you know the most feminist stance I don't want them and I think that is also okay rather than to judge every woman for oh my god look at you know Madonna why she done so much work to her face age gracefully let her age how the hell she wants I know I actually one time um one of my friends I'm just going to say Leanne from Little Mix she uh had twins and I saw her maybe like when the twins are like maybe a few weeks, maybe months old.

48:06And she just looked incredible. She was glowing, but from the inside out, just in like a really happy place. And it was her birthday. I remember I put a picture out and I was like, you know, wow, you know, just basically bigging her up as like, and that wasn't to put anyone down. It was just to say like, you look amazing. And then someone had done this like article where basically, you know, they felt like by me bigging her up, I was shaming all the other mums who couldn't bounce back or didn't bounce back and I was like even that within itself is so and I didn't um respond to it at all I'm glad that I'm doing it now these years later but I feel like even that was so negative because to big anyone up doesn't mean you're putting down anyone else and actually I think most mothers if they were in a room and they saw someone snap back quickly they would be like how'd you do that or they were like go up they would big her up as well because we all know that it's really difficult to keep in shape to you know we're like that with skin and hair like oh babe how'd you get your hair to grow back all of that after the heat damage whatever and so it was just really interesting you know how that story was sort of like twisted in a quite a menacing way and I think that women also need to stop doing that like a compliment is a compliment is a compliment and if you don't aspire to that and you're like actually I'm going to keep my mummy tummy like for for me personally I had lost like maybe I think 30 pounds I would say over the last two years and the one thing that I actually don't want is I don't want like a six-pack but I love looking at Tiana Taylor's body like I love that rock hard but for me personally that's not something that like I aspire to I'm fine with like the tummy that I have like it's flat it's all right it's definitely not hers but I wouldn't necessarily like I big hers up if that makes sense so that's another thing that we have to stop doing like just basically supporting each other and whatever that looks like you know one isn't better than the other whether someone wants to be more and even me losing the 30 pounds it's like I just wasn't happy I like a particular type of clothing I wanted to fit in it I didn't feel comfortable when I would put it on in my body that is completely up to me it's no one's business but in this world you know you kind of get told almost in a way that if you were to say that or to celebrate that you know then you're maybe not embracing like who you are and I'm like it's exhausting it's exhausting and also it's because

50:25Fearne Cotton: there's so much focus on what women look like over anything else so we look at we go back to the example of Madonna who I think is just a good example in many ways when everybody's commenting on what she should or shouldn't be doing who she should or shouldn't be dating we're forgetting about her insanely amazing back catalogue and how she changed the face of music. And with a male equivalent, we give a fuck about what he's wearing or what he looks like. We're just going, oh my God, look how many stadiums he's sold out or look at the achievements and how many awards he's won. We're not scrutinising that person's face, hair or clothing anywhere near as much.

50:59And I think that's the other thing is if we,

51:03Fearne Cotton: this is the by-product of, I think, liking yourself is that you don't feel the need to bring other people down or even comment on it you just you don't need to you're just like you do you I'll do me over here and that's that's that seems easy and peaceful and less stressful I think that's the way to go about it would you say that throughout your journey of receiving any negative feedback and it doesn't have to be due to being in the public eye could be in your actual lives that you've tried to change yourself in any way Jade? I like the friends that I have like I always say to them like I need you to be honest with me and it's really important that I have friends who are actually honest and don't just say things because they want to put me down out of their own self-interest right because unfortunately there are people out there like that because they're jealous or whatever I think I'm I'm not the kind of person to kind of be like I can't believe you said that like I will always take what you said because it lets me reflect from a different an angle and I find that really helpful because you only have your perspective so when I have my friends and I value their opinions I'll be like basically have I been an asshole yeah do you know what I mean and it's not that I told that yeah I want to be told if I've been an asshole like that's it's not a bad thing to ask and it kind of just helps reaffirm not that you need the affirmation but it's kind of like if you want to have room to know if you've done something wrong then you know yeah yeah I love that I think that's especially at your age I'm not saying that with in a in a patronizing tone but I don't think I in I would have at your age had that idea about my friendship circle or life but I am very much on the same page that now you know especially I keep referencing my friend Claire but she will say the thing that I need rather than the thing I want to hear yeah and I think that's really I love that yeah I think that's really important and no like Like when you're with social media and like, you know, AI generated crap going on out there, like you just need people who will be around you to ground you.

52:58And I think that's really important because the people that you surround yourself with are the energy that you're going to get. Yeah. And if it's all just shit, then what's the point otherwise? I absolutely agree.

53:10The hustle doesn't have to hurt. If performance pressure is making it hard to breathe, Grow Therapy helps you navigate stress, set boundaries, and actually feel like yourself again. Whether it's your first time in therapy or your 50th, Grow makes it easier to find a therapist who fits you, not the other way around. You can search by what matters, like insurance, specialty, identity, or availability, and get started in as little as two days. There are no subscriptions, no long-term commitments. You just pay per session. Grow helps you find therapy on your time. Whatever challenges you're facing, Grow Therapy is here to help.

53:47Grow accepts over 100 insurance plans, including Medicaid in some states. Sessions average about$21 with insurance and some pay as little as$0 depending on their plan. Visit growtherapy.com slash start now to get started. That's growtherapy.com slash start now. GrowTherapy.com slash start now Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan Hi, this is Matt from P1 with Matt and Tommy and this episode is sponsored by eBay The cars you'll find on eBay are just different They come with a story that you can't wait to share Like this 1973 Dodge Charger on eBay that's been tucked away in an Arizona barn for over 40 years only 55 ,000 miles and somehow in great running order It even has a rare sunroof Suddenly, a car that was hidden for decades is being delivered in just a few clicks with eBay's secure purchase.

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55:31Fearne Cotton: When I was, I'm trying to think of what age, probably the whole of my 20s, I could probably say, when I was on TV and I didn't quite know who the hell I was because who does in their 20s? I mean, I don't even know in my 40s, but I certainly didn't know then. And I had a lot of feedback, whether it was from, you know, things I'd read in the papers or people would say things to me or even TV execs would be like, could you be a bit more this or a bit less that? I would go, okay, today I'm going to be a bit more like Zummy Bull or tomorrow I'm going to be a bit more like Kat Dealey because they seem to be doing well.

56:10Fearne Cotton: So I'm just going to emulate them and hope for the best until I work out who the fuck I am. That felt safer than just being myself. Do either of you, let's start with you, Megan. Have you ever had moments where you thought, if I'm just a bit more like that then I'm safe and everyone will leave me alone yeah and it's been so hard because I am such an introvert in certain situations but then obviously with my job and like being working as a sex worker whether that's like webcam stripping all of that there's a side that people wouldn't dare want to do that that'll be the worst fear but it's so so it's hard and then people don't understand like what is your actual personality it's like you can be both yes um so I think when I first started stripping I was petrified never stepped foot in a strip club ever walked in there and I was just hungry for money I was like can I get a job I was like yeah we can start tonight I just picked the hottest dancer I thought I thought whatever she does I'm just gonna copy and you do you like emulate that person I wanted that aura I wanted that confidence and to believe that and it is so cringe about fake it till you make it but even with in my darkest days when I've been unhappy my mom would be like look just go out go for a walk and just smile even if you don't feel happy if you see an old lady if you see someone just smile and by the end of you've got to the walk you feel like I've smiled at so many people it ain't that bad the sun's shining I had a nice walk I got fresh air and that's the same as what I'd done with the stripper I was like literally shaking for my first dance this guy probably wanted a refund I was like what on earth is this but anyway I like pretended to be like her and by the end of like a couple dances I was like yeah I've got this so I think that you can do that in a healthy way to like take parts of people's character and like aura that you want and then put it in your own way if that makes sense until you work out who you are there's nothing wrong with it yeah have there been any comments from people online people in journalists in the press people in your life that have stuck because I see these things like you know when you walk through a meadow and you get those little balls of like from bracken and they just stick to your clothes and you can't bloody get them off I have had comments that have stuck with me for years and it's taken and a lot of work to either not take them seriously or completely like pull them out and remove them.

58:24If I give you an example, for instance, I remember being, I was about to do a Radio 1 show live and I was reading the paper

58:31Fearne Cotton: and there was a TV reviewer who had written a review about a TV show I'd done. This is probably 20 years ago. And he said, and this is, you know, you remember this shit verbatim. It sticks with you. I had to do a bungee jump for this TV show. and he said that the biggest shame of the show is that the bungee rope didn't snap. And I thought, oh God, I'm that unlikable that he had hoped that I would die at the end of that TV show. And yes, it's all said in jest, but I was about to fade up a mic and talk to five million people. And all of a sudden I was like, I don't want to be here. I feel mortified.

59:09Fearne Cotton: I feel like there's something inherently wrong with me this shit sticks to you and now I can sit here and go what grown man would write that about a young woman you know shame on him I'm not carrying that with any weight anymore it just lives in my brain have any of you got that Keisha oh my goodness yeah I will always just go back to I won't be like completely specific because I think that um there's there's so many different things that like I'm still like quite like traumatized by but I think a lot of it was just to do like with my character assumptions being made uh just about me and my relationship with the girls and the group um never being asked like Keisha what happened or how did you feel about that just like it being decided that no matter what like I was never going to be like believed and so I would just sit in that so I think that generally that was what I kind of accepted like there's no point speaking up because who would believe me who would believe me and that has been really really hard like a hard journey to kind of get over but I'm also a very faith-based person my background is like Christianity so I think the one thing that I learned through my faith is that you know not to come into agreement with I think it's such a powerful thing like if someone says something about you and you'd know internally like that's not what God says about you you know you can sit with that I refuse that so you know how people say like calling back your energy or calling back or whatever I had to literally be like I rebuke that yeah I'm not accepting that that's not who I am uh that's what you say but that's not who I am.

1:00:53Like, for example, you mentioned the Masked Singer before, and I was on it this year, and I won, and I was super excited about it. But to actually get up there, I got quite emotional when I was singing Colors of the Wind, because, you know, I started remembering words that were said to me, you know, no one will ever want to see you sing on stage. This is like people in circle who are, you know, who I was working with at the time. No one wants to see, quote, you know, a black pop star singer, no one's going to want to hear you, no one's going to, you're better as a songwriter behind the scenes and stuff and it really broke me down but even in that I remember in the moment turning around and saying to that person well it's not what you say about me it's what God says about me and I think I did that in defiance but I think there was a small part of me that believed that which is why you could probably only find maybe like five things outside of the show babes I've ever done in 25 years or something crazy like that so to actually get up there to actually win to actually be the first black person to win in the UK I was like so like wasn't expecting that in a million years but I was thinking to myself actually they do want to hear me sing you know they're actually fair enough I was under the mothy mark but the point is you know Maya Jammer caught it on the second one but for me it was it was more so every achievement that I have you know whether it's even just like sitting here today it just actually shows that like my voice is important and that rejecting those narratives rejecting those things that are I feel like targeted at confident people because obviously there was a bit of jealousy there from you know those people that maybe have said those things to me and so now that I've like rejected them I'm literally just embracing the truth what I believe is to be I love it reject it's just it's a straight it's just an instant I reject that I really like that I like that as a

1:02:37Fearne Cotton: I reject it. I reject it. It's not going near me. Sorry. Sorry. I'm taking that while I'm running with it. How about you, Jade? Anything that has stuck with you? You don't have to be specific because like Keisha says, some of this shit, you know, it is fucking traumatic and it is awful. And I nearly quit TV about a million times before I started Happy Place because I was like, can't do it anymore. Too painful. Don't like it. It's shit. Yeah, I think it's more like feelings or like it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. So like, you know, there was a lot of conversation around unconscious bias and the traitors and I was doing a Sky interview with Fraz and right at the end one of the presenters directly asked Fraz leaving me out the question do you think there's an influence of unconscious unconscious bias on the traitors and I was just kind of sat there like one okay fair enough you've directed it to him but also like I have a say in this as well and it was really hard because you know like you grew up in a British country I like identified as mixed and then like sometimes I feel like I have a voice sometimes I feel like I don't have a voice because you know at the end of the day I am half white but I'm also half Asian so like I do have an opinion and it was just kind of like okay and Fraz lovely like was just like well Jade's here too which was really good but it was just the fact that like not that I wanted to comment it was just do I not come across like I can speak on this as well because I am also half white so it's just obviously complex but yeah that and you know being asked to comment you know there are a lot of reserved and quiet women out there like what would your advice to them be and I'm like why have I now become the spokesperson for reserved and quiet women let them do what they want stop judging them for being reserved and quiet yeah why do we have to change yeah leave them alone do you know I mean there's nothing wrong with that.

1:04:26If I want to sit there and just not say anything, leave me alone.

1:04:29Fearne Cotton: Well, this is the other thing for women is that we're constantly told we're too something. We're too much. We're too little. We're too quiet. We're too loud. We're too quirky. We're too basic. We're too everything. In someone's eyes, we're always too a thing. And that is a hurdle that we all need to get over to care less, but also like ourselves more. Is that something you felt, Megan that you've had that kind of commentary that you're to something yeah especially given like how I came across on Love Island because I went for what I wanted I was like called a man eater and this and oh like and then when I came out and like that relationship broke down I was partying I was packed partying and like I did look a bit messy I won't lie but also who gives a shit like how fast 24 like let me live yes um so yeah it's always too something to like yeah too opinionated or then too sexual to this but going back to what you said about like what's the worst thing I think for me it was like because I had had that part in sex work because I had been that party girl it's like oh my god imagine if that was your wife no one's ever gonna want to marry you no one's ever gonna be such a terrible mom and for ages I well go to interviews and they're like do you want kids one day do you want to get married and I'd be like no do that whole defensive thing and it's only since I got my little puppy like this year I'm like no actually one day I would be a sick mom like I do want to settle down and like have a husband one day and you will yeah but for ages I just felt like oh okay if you think that I'm not worthy of being a mom because of my past I'm just going to go that narrative don't want it anyway I'm just going to party and hang out with all my gay boys till I'm 60 fuck you up like that's not actually how I feel in my heart so I think yeah just like again age has made me think no actually your opinions aren't going to change what my life narrative is going to be because you think that and you're trying to put me in one dimensional box yeah I think that is again a key thing that we need to remember is to not become the thing that you're being told you are because I certainly did that I would constantly go well I just am that I am that I am I'm annoying I'm annoying I'm just going to go with that I'm a bit and I would you hear yourself parroting it and you're like why am I confirming something that I actually truly don't believe I I don't believe I am whatever anyone is saying but it's you have to have nerves of steel to rally against that stuff and I'm so glad to hear at that point you're like yeah I'm not going with that narrative I'm gonna I'm deciding my lovely mate Gok who's one of my best mates speak to him every damn day he texts me at 7am every morning and he said something so game-changing four days ago to me and it has stuck with me in the best possible way and it's so simple and it's the most obvious thing ever but I love it he said Fern you're the CEO of your happiness I thought yeah too fucking right I am I'm I'm the one that gets to decide that not anybody else doesn't matter if you know I've got people telling me I'm this or that or having a go at me or trying to mess with my happiness I'm going to decide how happy I am on any given day and it might not be every day that I feel happy but if I I used to I used to have this weird superstition and I'm not religious but I believe in something but I used to have this superstition that if I allowed myself to be too happy something bad would happen to trip me up and go, ah, you thought it was safe to be happy.

1:08:07Fearne Cotton: Look what someone's going to, a bad comment would literally evaporate all my happiness. And I thought that's how the world worked. And now I don't. It's like, no, you can, you can give it a good go and you can try, but that's not up for debate. I will, I will decipher that. And I think that again, is a key, key thing to remember that we don't take on other people's narratives and that we choose how we feel about our lives and ourselves and actually fundamentally we decide how likeable we are and how much it matters to us at the end of the day yeah yeah that's powerful yeah it's fucking great I'm like excited I'm excited to have this chat I am by no means at a point of completion with this like yes and I don't care if I'm likeable or not and I will never lose sleep over it again.

1:08:55Fearne Cotton: I'm just so curious about how we start openly talking about it and can live more peacefully with people not liking us and still like ourselves a hell of a lot. I think it's so, so important. And I'm so grateful to each of you today for being open and vulnerable and honest about this subject. I think it's going to be so, so helpful to people. Before we wrap up, I would love to ask each of you, where is your happy place? Jade, let's start with you. Honestly, it's going to be so nerdy. Honestly, at my desk, my boyfriend sat next to me. We're playing games and then I'm just like smiling, laughing, crying at something stupid going on.

1:09:40What games are we talking? What kind of gaming? Just like video games. Like we were aliens trying to run like a gas station in America. And like we're probing people coming into the gas station. Like it's rogue. I love it. But I'm sat there crying. I don't think I've cried so much from laughter in such a long time. So I'd say that's my happy place.

1:10:01Fearne Cotton: Niche. And we've not had that answer before. I'm really here for that. We probably won't again. Keisha, what about you? I would say my happy place is like a shared space. so I'm I can't be happy unless like everyone around me is like okay so I feel like starting with that I can be anywhere just as long as like I know that like mom's good my nieces and nephews are good my best friends are good you know yeah and then you could plop me on any island with son and then I'm good with some food you know like a quick take out like I'm a very simple girl simple girl everyone around me needs to be happy and then I'll just get in where I fit in yeah I I love that.

1:10:40How about you, Megan? Definitely sunshine. I'm copying that one. It's such a mood booster, don't you think? The sun. I love it. It's the best. Living for the sun. Sun, good food, my gaze, good music. We're happy. Maybe a spicy mug.

1:10:55Fearne Cotton: Spicy mug too. Now we're talking. That's very much my drink of happiness. I love it. You're so right. Even just having the blossom on the trees at the moment is making me feel so good. ladies I think you are all utterly wonderful brilliantly likable whether that matters or not and I'm just very grateful to sit here with you today so thank you thank you thanks for having oh that is one of my favorite chats we've had on the podcast ever and do you know why it is not only are they brilliant women but I think when I started the podcast eight years ago that is exactly the sort of feeling I hoped I would have during a chat that we are creating a space at Happy Place for women and other humans, men, anyone, to just feel like they can be themselves, say exactly how they feel, speak their mind without judgment or assumption or critique.

1:11:55Fearne Cotton: And it felt like that. It felt like we could all chat really openly and safely. And I loved it. I fucking loved it. I'm buzzing. I'm still buzzing about that chat. I just bloody loved it. And I really hope that you did too, that you got something from it, that you might want to pass it on to a friend that you know is struggling with people pleasing or send it to your mum or I don't know, whoever you want to pass it on to. I hope it helps them too. As I said, my book, Likeable, which very much inspired this chat, is out right now. And I would love to know what you make of it. You can have a chat with us about it over on our Instagram at happyplaceofficial and it's also self-indulgently our Happy Place Book Club pick.

1:12:36Fearne Cotton: So you can head to our Happy Place Book Club account at happyplacebookclub to tell us what you're thinking about it too or maybe your own thoughts and feelings around people pleasing. Just slide into our DMs but in the meantime a massive thanks again to Keisha, Megan and Jade. Brilliant women. We love you. To the producer Anushka Tate at Happy Place Studios and to you, you are very, very likeable.

1:13:28Thank you.