Bronnie Ware

0:01Hello and welcome to Happy Place with me Fern Cotton. This is the show that questions what it means to truly live well. Today, I'm chatting to Bronnie Ware. The only thing that turns a mistake into a regret is our own judgment upon it. It's really just a matter of perspective. So every regret is a mistake, but every mistake doesn't have to be a regret. And so if we can look back and recognize we've made a mistake, we're already wiser than we were in that moment. And I just think, OK, well, you did your best as who you were, in that moment, on that day, with those circumstances. And the fact that you can look back and recognise that it's a mistake means I've obviously evolved.

0:45After many years of unfulfilling work, Bronnie began searching for a job with heart. Her search led her to palliative care and something incredible happened. Her experiences tending to the needs of those who were dying transformed the way she chose to live. She wrote a blog about the most common regrets, expressed to her by the people she'd cared for. And in just one year, it had been read three million times. The Top Five Regrets of the Dying is the name of the book Bronnie's written to expand on that first blog post. And it's quite understandably an international bestseller. Reading this book personally impacted me hugely in my everyday life, not just sort of long-term thinking.

1:29I think this subject matter is really important and extremely powerful because we tend not to think about death. We don't like to and we're so super distracted by everything going on around us that we don't think about time moving really quickly. So this book presses pause on everything and makes you stop and really think about life and how you want to live it. This one precious life. I think that is why so many people have bought this beautiful book. Bronnie has a very gentle and very honest and very funny approach to all of this. And I think we could probably all do with approaching death and grief in the way that she does.

2:13Here it is then. This is the show.

2:38Bronnie, it's so nice to meet you. You too, Fern. Thank you. I love how this podcast came about because we've been doing this podcast for quite a few years now and there'll be varying ways as to how we end up sat opposite each other in a studio. But you quite literally DM'd me on Instagram and were like, hey, I'm going to be in the UK. Should we meet up? That's it. Like a week later, here we are. Here we are. But do you know what? I'm so glad because I'd heard of your book. I'd seen it floating about. And this was a massive prompt for me to read it. And I loved it so much. It's made a huge impact on me.

3:11And a huge impact on how I'm going about even just my daily life. Not even looking long term. Just how I'm moving through the day. It's incredibly impactful. The book's called The Top Five Regrets of the Dying. and I was keen to do this episode after we spoke for many reasons but I think one is quite an obvious one, that we don't talk about dying or death, I was about to say enough, but really at all. Not at all. It's a bit of a taboo subject. And yet it's one of the things we've all got in common. There's no way out of it. So you'd think it would actually be a subject that we'd try and at least come to terms with.

3:49Do you think it's because we're scared? Yeah, I think so. but I also think that we're just driven by things that have thrown us off track. And so rather than face the reality of things and realise our time is sacred and that we are going to die, we're just chasing these false dreams instead. And yes, I'm sure it is fear on some level, absolutely, but because it's a guarantee, it's probably a pretty good subject to bring to the dining table occasionally. It's a huge one. And I think not only is it very interesting to talk about, but also it does catalyse this kind of presence. You know, we must have this acknowledgement of the now rather than thinking about the past and worrying about it or fearing the future.

4:36I think thinking about death, and I guess it's quite a Buddhist concept to sort of talk about death or have it in mind so that you do live presently and as, I guess, graciously as you can. because you understand, like you just said, the preciousness of life. And it seems the people that you were caring for, these terminally ill people that you were caring for for years and years, did not have this realisation right until it was too late. Until it was too late. And so through that, I've learnt to use death as a tool for living. And so if we can talk about death or we can at least just acknowledge it to ourselves that, okay, we are going to die and every single day that we live is one day less of our lives, it helps us prioritise what's truly important and what's going to bring us the most joy.

5:22And that makes us show up in the world better anyway. And it also gives you a lot more courage because you're less affected by what other people think of you because you realise, well, you know, I'm on limited time here. So does their opinion really make that much, you know, does it really matter? Because I'm going to die. They're going to die. I don't want to die with this regret. And so I think that the more that we can talk about death, it's exactly what you just said. We become a lot more present and it takes courage to do that and to trust and just not always be achieving and searching and grasping.

6:02But the more present we become, then the easier life becomes as well. And we then not only avoid some of the regrets we could have because we're present for our life. We're not sort of looking back thinking where the heck has it gone. But also we just show up with a much more open heart because we're not distracted by a lot of the other stuff that society sort of tries to dictate we should be. Yeah, I mean, there are distractions everywhere. It is the easiest thing to be distracted. All of us can become distracted even with just picking up our phones or laptop, but there's a ton of other social expectations that also become distractions and as you say this allows us to go well what is important to me what do I want to do I'd love to get a bit more sort of granular with the actual regrets in a moment but before that the thing I loved about this book I didn't actually expect it necessarily is you've got a lot of your own story woven into this alongside these huge lessons that you were learning from people that you were caring for and you actually sort of fell into working in palliative care accidentally.

7:10Talk to us about how that you felt quite called to it in the end, but there was a bit of an accidental start to it. Yeah, well, I'd done the Aussie thing, being over here as a backpacker, and I ended up taking a live-in job as a companion for a lady down in Sussex. And that was my introduction into care work. And then when I returned to Australia a few years later, I just didn't want to go back to the banking industry, which is where my career had been before. And I wanted a job that had no sails, no high heels and no stockings. I love that. And that was my... Good specifications. That was it.

7:42And with heart that I could show up, you know, as myself. Yeah. And then I just took a job as a living carer because I was trying to get going as a singer songwriter, but I also was just looking for anything that I had the skills for. And the first person I looked after went in as a living companion, but turned out she was terminally ill. And so the agency I was working with said, do you want to stay on and look after her? And said, I guess so. I felt called to it then. And I just went down and sat by Sydney Harbour. Her house was right on Sydney Harbour. And I just went down and had a big cry and said a prayer to give me strength.

8:21And that began eight years of looking after dying people. So I certainly never saw it coming, never saw it coming and never saw even while I was doing it that it would actually become a huge part of my life's work as well to share the messages on. But you know, life sort of puts some pretty perfect steps in front of us if we can just get out of the way and allow it to. Yeah, so true, so true. Some of the most moving moments of the book were these extremely intimate moments where you were with the people you were caring for and they their soul was leaving their body they were they were departing I have never experienced that I've never sat with someone as they have died I know that there'll be people out there listening to this that certainly will have been through that with grandparents parents friends etc that is quite something to experience the first time you were sat with someone how was that to process and to be in the room as someone actually died?

9:23I was pretty scared in a way, just having that responsibility of it. But I'd grown up on a farm, so I'd seen a lot of dead animals. And I just tried to use that wisdom that, okay, this could happen really quickly or really slowly. And the lady I looked after, it took her quite a while to die. She kept taking big breaths and then it would seem like she had finished. And then she took another huge breath a few minutes later and I swore and my heart was pumping out my chest But one thing I noticed straight away, Fern, was how empty the room was as soon as she left. And I hadn't realised how huge the life force is because we're all just around each other all the time and we don't sort of see each other as the life force we are.

10:10But when it's just a body and that life force has gone, it was just so shocking to me how noticeable it was. Yeah, and just really started my whole journey with being around dying people and realising, okay, well, we can all be here one moment, but when we're gone, we're really gone from that body. Yeah, it's the most definite and certain thing that we're all going to experience. At what point did you start to realise, God, I'm learning some massive life lessons here? I think it was through one of my patients called Grace, and she was a really small, gorgeous little lady. And she made me promise to her that I would always be true to myself and not live the life that others expected of me because she had that regret.

11:05So she had always been a really, she'd come from a generation where it's quite defined what the wife does, the role of the wife. And she was married to a guy that her family called him an ogre. you know the kids called him an ogre and she just looked after him and the children she wanted to go traveling around Australia he didn't and then he ended up in a nursing home and she went straight to the travel agents and bought some catalogs to do a bus tour around Australia and within three weeks she ended up with terminal lung cancer and she'd never been a smoker he'd been the smoker in the house and so she never even actually left the house again and if she was gone within a couple of months.

11:48And so during that time, I was looking after her from 8am in the morning till 8pm at night. And we just grew really close. And in those conversations, there's no room for nonsense. You sort of just get down to the nitty gritty straight away. And it wasn't me extracting it. It was just me being the listener and them sharing. And so it was at that point when I witnessed the anguish of Grace's regret about not doing that holiday, not living the life that she wanted and being more concerned what the neighbours would think. And she was from that generation where the whole street knew each other and that sort of thing.

12:25And it was then that I just thought, well, I don't ever want to experience this level of heartache. And to be holding a lady in her late 80s as she's sobbing and reflecting on her life and realising how wrong she got it, it just opened my eyes up to, okay, I have to do this differently. I have to be braver than what she had been. And then once my eyes were open to that, I started seeing that regret come around regularly. Yeah, because in the book you've got, as the title suggests, these five regrets that you've used these particular stories to showcase what that meant to the individual. But these are things that kept coming up, kept coming up with multiple people that you were working with.

13:12And let's just reiterate that first regret. It's the first regret in the book. I wish I had had courage to live a life true to myself, not to the life others expected of me. What do you think it is to live authentically? How do we do it? Because I think that sort of terminology gets battered around quite a lot, like be authentically you, do you, like all of these slogans. How do we achieve that? I mean, there'll be people listening to this who think, I genuinely don't even know what I want to do. How do we even start living authentically so we don't end up with a huge regret at the end of life?

13:45Well, I think that not knowing what you want to do doesn't need pressure either. I think there's a lot of pressure on having to find out what you want to do. But a quote from Buddha that I really have always loved is that your life's work is to find your life's work. And so for some people, it can take a lifetime to find out what you're really here to do. But I think that, and I agree with you that the whole do you and the word authentic, you know, they are really thrown around a lot. But I think it's about giving yourself permission to slow down enough to tune into yourself. And that takes a lot of courage.

14:21And so that's why I say to use death as a tool for living and actually think my time is sacred. I don't want to keep going down this road that isn't bringing me, I was going to say joy, but it's not always joyful. Life has the light and the dark, but it brings you peace because you know that even if you're going through growth and struggles and you're breaking through some sort of resistance, that you still know that you're on the right path for what your heart wants. but you need to give yourself the permission to actually slow down enough to work that out and to hear what lights you know to actually think yeah I wouldn't mind having a go at that or you know it might be you want to spend more time in the garden and finding a way to still honor your responsibilities because we most of us have responsibilities but to also broaden that time doing the things that you like.

15:16And then the more you do that, so say, for example, you want to spend more time in the garden, if you can cut back from work or allocate a non-negotiable couple of hours a week extra in the garden, then that, I've found, is showing life your commitment to honouring your path. And then life often clears the way a little bit more. And so that's why the permission from yourself is needed, just to say, no, actually, I know I've got all these responsibilities, but this is really important to me. And if I can honour myself more, I'm going to show up better for everyone whose space I hold or who I have responsibilities to.

15:53Yeah, that's a beautiful way of putting it. I love that because I think, you know, you're right. Sometimes if we have these big, bold statements, this is how I want my life to be and this is the person I want to be, that feels so daunting. But to actually commit to small changes that head in the right direction to honouring parts of yourself or your life that you really want to give time to, that's your foot in the door. That's the way in. And also, I guess you have to have, and again, it comes down to courage, the courage to not care about what everybody else thinks. Everyone's always going to have an opinion or have certain expectations of who you are and what that means.

16:31But you've really got to sidestep that one. Yes, you do. And that's why if you can keep remembering this is my life, not their life, they haven't walked in my shoes, they're going to judge me anyway, their judgment probably says a heck of a lot more about them than it does about me. Is their opinion really more important than me dying without regrets and being peaceful and enjoying my life in the process? Is it really that important what they think? and there's always going to be judgments. And whether you're in the public eye or not, there's always going to be judgments and opinions and criticisms and that sort of thing.

17:09But there's also immense freedom if you can sort of look at those people almost with compassion and think, well, that's a broken part of yourself that is judging me. I'm going to leave you to that and I'm just going to have the courage here and just get on with what makes sense to me. And you can laugh at me, but I might laugh at you for laughing at me. I love that. It was quite amazing recently. This was probably only like, I don't know, about a month ago now. One of my friends who's had a terminal illness for about 14 years, unbelievably, she decided to have a living funeral. So she called it her funeral.

17:44And we had this incredible day at Truro Cathedral in Cornwall. And it was kind of like a funeral and a wedding and a rave and like everything all rolled into one. But my friend who has absolutely, she's called Chris Hellinger, She's absolutely lived courageously and fearlessly for as long as I've known her. And I'm sure she has worried about what other people think, but she's always charged forward anyway. And she happily stood up and said, you know, I want all of you here, everybody that she loved in the room to know that I have absolutely loved my life. And that had the exact same impact on me as reading The First Regret in your book.

18:24Wow. OK, she can stand there and say she's loved her life. She doesn't want to see anything else. She doesn't need to do anything else. She's really followed her calling and her guts and made decisions from that place rather than it being informed by exterior opinions or what everybody thinks she should be doing. But it's a big thought that we don't have often enough. And again, it's very much why you were dealing with it so often with people that were at the end of their lives. That's right. It was so common. And so in the case of your friend, she's had 14 years of reflection. And that's why she's learned to love her life and good on her, you know, good for her.

19:02And to do that, that funeral, you know, that's just beautiful. It was so cool. But a lot of people, because we live in this society that denies death, families don't even talk about it at all. And then they're at the end. And what I found was it wasn't just the dying person that I was looking after. It was really a lot of the adult children, people in their 50s and 60s, whose 80, 90-year-old parent was dying. And they just didn't have the tools to deal with it. And that brings a lot of stress to the dying person because, especially if they're a parent, they're still worried about their children.

19:38And they're worried about the burden they're being on their adult children, that sort of thing. Whereas if we can speak about it, then not only does it help all of us individually because it gives us more courage to have a go at our life fully, but it actually saves a lot of this turmoil at the end that can be really heavy going for dying people. I mean, there were several cases in the book where the family was saying to you, you know, please do not tell them they're dying. And you were the one who actually said, look, I'm not going to lie. Or you'd made that internal decision. I'm not going to lie if I'm asked by the terminally ill patient.

20:13And there were several occasions where you would turn to and the patient would say, am I dying? And you would compassionately sit there, hold their hand and nod. And that was almost quite freeing, it seemed, each time this happened. Yeah, they wanted to talk about it. And, you know, there was one old guy that only spoke to me about it. He couldn't even speak to his wife and his adult children right up until the end. They were still bringing in huge meals for him. He was eating like two spoonfuls of peas or something. And they're still, come on, you're going to get better soon. Eat up, eat up. And these are people that, like, it was so obvious.

20:50He had a carer in there. I was giving him enemas and, you know, we're doing some pretty heavy duty stuff. and they were still denying it. And so the only sort of comfort he could find was in a stranger, like a carer who happened to be there five or six days a week, holding his hand and listening. And, I mean, it was an honour for me, but from his perspective, my heart was just aching because he was so lonely in his family unit because he couldn't speak about his regrets. He couldn't speak about the fact that he was even dying. Yeah. And I had to learn a lot of respect for family dynamics in that role and just be very discerning and not judge them because they were doing what they felt was right for them.

21:38And probably, again, coming from a place of utter fear about even saying the word out loud. It's something to really come to terms with that some people just can't. They're not ready. No. But if we can bring it to the table and make it more mainstream. It's a cultural issue, isn't it? It is. It's an issue that is, you know, in many parts of the world, I think the West are particularly bad at this one, being able to even mention it, you know, and talk about it. And then even the grieving part seems very suppressed rather than it being full bodied, you know, sort of experience that you need to move through to really get it out of you.

22:18People, I think, get a bit worried about grieving, scared about grieving. They keep it quite small and private. Yeah, and then they can't also talk their happy memories out and that sort of thing. And I read somewhere a long time ago when I was working in the field, and I can't remember what culture it was, but they said that if you go fully into your grief, if you're allowed to go fully into your grief for six weeks or something like that, it was six weeks or two months or something, then you can actually move completely through it. Wow. If you're allowed to have that space to do it. But we don't.

22:49No. No one wants to talk about it or you feel this obligation to be through it. over it and it always stayed with me and I thought okay I wonder if I can create that space if I ever truly need it and uh yeah but I I wish I could think which culture it was now but they they basically said if you're given that space to fully feel it within six weeks you're through it wouldn't that be a novel idea it would but we don't give ourselves time to do anything let alone grieve we don't give our time so like the start of this chat you know we don't know what to do with our lives because we're not giving ourselves a space and time to just sit and be still with ourselves and actually feel the feelings we have and have that self-awareness of what we want to do let's talk about another one of the regrets which is i wish i hadn't worked so hard this was a story of one of your patients john that you were working with this is such an interesting one because i mean i certainly personally happily overwork a lot and then reach burnout and think oh God, what am I doing to myself?

23:51And I get, I'm very lucky. I love my job. I feel very excited and often naturally motivated because I've got lots of goals and dreams and things I want to do. And it all feels positive until I reach burnout and go, oh my God, I'm actually exhausted. But of course there's the other side of the coin, which John expressed to you when you were working with him, that he hadn't spent time with people properly and work had been the priority. I wouldn't say I'm that far down the line with it, because I love being a mum and I put a lot of time and energy into it. But I think I'm sure I will still have regrets if I keep working this hard for the rest of my life.

24:31It's a tough one to learn, I think. And also I think some people don't have the choice or feel they certainly don't have the choice with how much they're working. That's a bit of a sensitive one to talk about, I guess. Yeah, I think a lot of people do feel they don't have a choice because of responsibilities. But it comes back to what I was saying before about the garden. If you can just carve out a little bit more time here and there, life then gives you shortcuts. And so a part of that feeling like you've got no choice but to work 60 hours a week or whatever, a part of that is fear of losing control, of letting go because you may end up with nothing.

25:06But you may actually end up with some really amazing opportunities and shortcuts where life's saying, oh, thank goodness, there's enough space I can help now. And so it's a little bit of an expectation, I think, in society, that glorifying of overworking. And I'm as guilty as anyone, even with all of those witnessing those regrets and all of the pain that came with that. I think when you love your work, especially if you're project based and you throw yourself into it, you do go all in. But what I found is I always make sure I've got a gap in between projects now. And so rather than just go all in and then, you know, the ideas for the next one are already coming, I just make sure there's space in between so that I can keep myself well, that I can be there for my daughter, so I can enjoy, you know, the beautiful country sky I live under, that sort of thing.

26:03So I think it's just about mindfulness, really. and it's about not making work your whole life. So there's nothing wrong in loving your work. There's nothing wrong in working hard. I mean, it's how you're sitting here and how I'm sitting here. We're women who have worked hard and we didn't land here as a fluke. We've worked and done the hard yards. But it's also recognising that work is not our whole life, that even if we didn't have children, there are other relationships or just stillness at home. If you're sociable and you've got friends, get out and do that. If you prefer to be at home cooking or whatever, make space for those sort of things.

26:43So it's just honouring other parts of your life as well. And I won't use the word balance because I think that that is a really unrealistic thing because life is fluid and it's always changing. And so it's more about just navigating, being fluid with it and saying, okay, this is a really heavy work time. Soon I'm going to switch off for a few weeks or a couple of weeks or a couple of days and I'm going to do something that has nothing to do with work. So it's just honouring other parts of your life as well. It seems like with those first two regrets even, alongside learning these lessons, to me it seemed from reading your story you were already actioning a lot of this stuff.

27:26You kind of knew it on maybe a subconscious level because throughout parts of this not only were you caring for people and living in, you were also house-sitting. At times you were living in your car. You were living quite a nomadic lifestyle, which obviously felt very gut-led to you. It's something that you needed to do and that you wanted to do without worrying what anyone else was saying. I'm sure there were lots of family members or friends that questioned you leaving the city and the banking world. I certainly had that leaving sort of old parts of my career. People sort of don't really understand it as much because it seems like you're leaving stuff behind rather than gaining other stuff.

28:03Did you have a sense like, oh, yeah, I'm actually doing all right here. I'm doing these things already. Yeah, I did sometimes, but it took a lot more. It was an evolution, really, because we're so geared to always be striving and expanding and growing. And so I'm still doing that, but now I do it with a lot more discernment. and so it really took witnessing that pain repeatedly and realizing how real it was that this isn't just an occasional thing this is people at the end of their lives and they have so much regret but so much pain because it's too late for them and all they did was lack mindfulness and courage around their decision making and that's that's all it really came down to yeah and so I I was practicing that and bringing that into my life repeatedly.

28:56But it's a step-by-step process and eventually it becomes second nature. And now, you know, if someone asks me to do something, if my gut says no, no matter how I'll be perceived or whatever, I just have to say, no, I can't do that or I'm not doing that. Yeah. It's crazy when you boil it down like that, that it boils down to not very much, having those regrets. It is wonderfully simple, yet feels almost impossible at times. It's such a weird conundrum. But we'll come on to that sort of conclusion maybe towards the end, because I'd love to know your thoughts on that some more. The next regret is I wish I'd had the courage to express my feelings.

29:34This was a story of Joseph. This one's a really interesting one, and one that I maybe didn't expect. The other ones I was like, oh, yeah, absolutely. This one I expected less, and I'm maybe wondering if that's because generationally we're getting slightly better at this one, would you say? telling people we love them, expressing how we feel, whether it's to set boundaries or to tell someone that we really care and love for them? I like to think that we are getting better as a species in our evolution, but there's still plenty of families that can't tell each other that they love them. I think the more we can tell people, the more we grow, the more we're around people like that.

30:13But there's still plenty of our human family who really would be terrified to tell someone in their family that they love them. So I think it does take a lot of courage because you can't guarantee what reaction you're going to get from them. But I know from my own personal history that you can't control their reaction. All you can do is be proud of yourself for at least having the guts to tell people and let yourself be heard. I tell everyone. My dad is one of those people that doesn't necessarily say it, but he's the loveliest man and I know that he loves me and my brother absolutely but I don't know if he's ever said it out loud he's quite chilled and quiet but I'll go love you dad like every time I don't I'm not expecting it back I know it's there but I'm happy happy to say it but I guess yeah I'm I'm sure there are many families out there that still don't have that level of communication and oh my god I can't imagine the pain and regret with that one thinking I've never said it out loud.

31:16I've never said how I feel. That is deeply painful. But then there's people like your dad that will show it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so everyone's got their own way of expressing it, I guess. But that regret wasn't only about people saying they love you. It was also in expressing their feelings. Some of those regrets were around people wishing they'd stood up for themselves and actually said, no, enough. I'm going to break this family pattern or whatever. and living their life. There was one woman who I looked after and right through till she was in her 80s, it was only then that she realised she had lived her whole life.

31:53Even though her parents had died decades ago, she was still living life, worried she'd get in trouble for living a different life, making different choices. It's so interesting, isn't it? I've definitely encountered that in life where I've interviewed people or had just private conversations where they're very much still driven by someone that has died. They're not even here anymore. But that influence is so ingrained in their behavior and their fears and worries. I think people often expect there will be relief when that person dies. I don't have to deal with that judgment anymore. But it lives on.

32:26Yeah, it really lives on. You've got to do the healing somehow. Yeah, without a doubt, without a doubt. The next regret is I wish I'd stayed in touch with my friends. Now, we all know that loneliness is a huge problem. I mean, I don't know if we still have, but at some point in the UK, we had a minister of loneliness. I think that might still be the case. It's certainly a widely spread problem that seems to be getting worse and worse. And this is obviously, again, a regret that you encountered multiple times when working with people who are terminally ill. Why do people end up either losing touch with friends or getting into that space?

33:02Is it, again, fear of rejection, fear of friendships, you know, or there being sort of lack of ability to bond with other people? What do you think it is that get people into that rut? I think some of it is just getting caught up in life and not making the effort for real life connection anymore. But I do also think that as people change, they're worried how they'll be perceived by old friends. Right. And so not fitting that mould anymore. And so rather than reconnect with people that would still nurture a part of them, they would rather be on their own rather than be judged. So, you know, it's a different time now.

33:47A lot of the people I looked after, they'd lost touch because there was no internet and they'd got caught up with raising their families. and one of the reasons they miss their friends at the end is because they're too busy caring for their adult children even though they're dying, whereas a friend will just bring some joy and laughter in. But a friend will also bring memories that are from prior to them becoming parents and they wanted to reminisce about things like that. But I think in these days you don't really lose touch with friends because you've got social media and you can reach out to them But what ends up happening is there's not enough real life connection.

34:26And rather than say a text every two months to someone say, I'm thinking of you, you'd be better to catch up twice a year for lunch. Yes. And be full, have your cup full. And even if you're not in touch in between that, just having that real life hug, sharing food together, I think that's a huge part of why there's such a problem with loneliness. is that everyone's connection is online and we forget that we're actually social creatures. Even those of us who are introverts and love our own company for our own mental health, we need to interact with other people sometimes in real life. Oh, my God, we absolutely do.

35:06I mean, and it takes great effort is what I guess we should also mention. It's not necessarily always the easiest thing. No. I grew up with, there's seven of us, so six other ladies. We all lived on the same sort of block of streets in the suburbs and we've been friends since we were maybe five, some of the others maybe sort of ten, sort of a long, long time. And we're all now all over the shop. One's in New York, one's in Newcastle, a couple are in the countryside. Like, everyone's dispersed. But twice a year, we do exactly what, well, we do more than a lunch. We all get together and we try and do a night or two together.

35:41Oh, that's funny. And it obviously is just military precision, trying to get everyone to get childcare or whatever needs to be dealt with with work and all get together. But when we do it, like the last time we did it was maybe a few months ago, I felt boosted for weeks after. And I was laughing about things still. I mean, we laugh like we're 13 again. Yes, fantastic. But it's nice to be able to text every day and check in, but to actually be with other people is so, so important. Yeah, I think we underestimated. I think we've forgotten. We've forgotten how important it is and just what a difference it can make to have that real-life interaction.

36:19What's really interesting is, I don't know if it was around the same point within the book, but you also talk about, and this is maybe more to do with boundary setting, when you've had to say goodbye to people and let certain friends go. We've all been through it, I've certainly been through it, where either it could end in an argument or it could be a slow fade out or there are decisions made where you realise someone just doesn't fit into your life anymore, or you don't fit into theirs and you are better off without that person in your life. This was, I thought, really an interesting point because I've, even with those friendships in my life that I've seen disintegrate essentially or some of them have ended more bluntly, I have had almost sleepless nights thinking, but should I get back in touch?

37:01Should I, should we try again? Should I say sorry again and again and maybe another time? You know, could I have done better? And I want, it's quite a fine line, isn't it? Because I'm sure some of those people that felt very or feel very lonely towards the end of life have had moments where they have just let friendship slide. But there might be other times where they are better off without that person in their life. It's such a fine line between knowing the difference. Yeah, and I think it's human nature to want to be liked. And so if you do fall out with someone, you sort of want to fix it and put some putty on it and fix the whole sort of thing.

37:39But I think the more, again, that you realise the sacredness of your time and that you cannot please everyone, then there's a certain freedom in that. And to think, well, we've learnt what we were meant to from each other and they may hate me forever or one day they may actually realise my point of view as well and view it differently. But we can't control how other people are going to see us. And so it's a very deep level of self-care and self-kindness to let go and not have to keep patching up those things. And that's natural to feel inclined, should I apologise again or should I try and explain myself to be understood better?

38:23But none of us go through life with everyone loving us, liking us all the time. and we're going to have people who misunderstand us, who aren't willing to allow us to grow. The best thing we can do is just wish them well and love them from a distance in a detached, compassionate way. Yeah. You're right. It's really about self-compassion, isn't it? And knowing that our time is precious and wanting the best for ourselves during that short, very fast life. Because I think most of us sat here today will think, God, you know, things are moving really quickly and I don't want to miss opportunities or, you know, not have moments where I feel great.

39:06And that is actually the perfect point to bring in the next regret, which is I wish I'd let myself be happier. And this one made me feel deeply emotional reading that because the word let is in there, which heavily alludes to the fact that we've got a lot more autonomy over happiness than we think most of us assume having had maybe challenges in life or periods of life that have felt really dark that we are out of control with it happiness is spontaneous and it's just going to show up when it shows up or it's for other people they're lucky I'm not but actually what you've learned from working with people who profess this at the end of life is actually you've got to allow it in Yeah.

39:50Yeah, you've got to allow it in and it is a choice, but not in a way that makes you feel less of a human if you're not happy all the time. No one's happy all the time. If they are, they're lying to themselves and everyone else, I'd hate to think who they are on their own at home. Yes. But it's about just steering your thoughts. You know, it says it in there, I've been through depression myself, you know, and I've also learnt that you can't deny those massive times of growth and there are times when life just cracks you open completely and it's allowing the old life to fall away so the new life can come in.

40:28But when you're in amongst it, as I'm sure you understand, that it's horrifying and you just want a little bit of hope and lightness again. But what I found during that time for me was there were some willy wagtails, some Australian birds singing and they were nesting nearby. What a great name. Yeah, I know. Really wag tail because they're tail wags all the time. Yeah. And so I would just follow this family and watch the babes come up and their little heads stick up in the nest and stuff like that and then got to hear their first song and things like that. And I realised then that that was what my patients were saying about the choice, that we can still be in a really hard place.

41:14And I mean, a lot of our hard places is just resisting our potential, really. And so as we're breaking through that resistance to receive, you know, what our heart's really wanting, a different life or a bit more ease or whatever, there is that fear and that resistance that stops us. But during that time, rather than let that cripple us, if we can just focus, say, in that moment on that bird singing, then for those five minutes, that depression didn't hold me. And that's sometimes what choosing happiness is. It's not about saying, I'm going to deny all these hard feelings. It's better to let them up and out.

41:53They're trying to set us free from old stuff. But if you can just steer your thoughts into a place of gratitude or presence, then you're claiming your power back over those harder times. And the more that becomes a habit, the more you are actually happier, you become a lot more of a happier person consistently because you're choosing to be, while not denying that, okay, sometimes I'm going to suffer and struggle and resist what is and fight life and everything else, but I'm also going to stop and notice a beautiful cloud passing over or be grateful for a friend who checked on me today or something like that.

42:35I think some people out there do genuinely push happiness away or they don't lean into it. And I guess, again, that is due to fear, fear that it might go, fear that it will be snatched away. I think people that have been through maybe something quite shocking or betrayal assume that all happiness will be whipped away at some point. And that stops you. Like, I remember this just popped into my head, but I remember, I think it was a Brené Brown podcast, but she was talking about one of the case studies that she'd been working on where this guy had said he'd always been too scared to lean into happiness in case something awful happened.

43:13So he just always tried to stay middle of the road, not enjoying life too much, just jogging along. And then somewhere down the line, after years of being married, his wife died and he had the realisation that, oh, my God, I didn't lean into happiness and the worst thing still happened. so I've wasted all these opportunities to feel great joy and staying in the middle didn't save me and I can notice when I do that sometimes I get a bit scared of allowing myself to have a good time like maybe there'll be some redemption afterwards or something I don't know I don't often allow myself to really let my hair down and go for it and again I know it's through fear we're scared to Well, it puts you in a bit of a vulnerable position as well, doesn't it?

43:55Because you could be wrong. You could be wrong, but it's a habit. And the more you sort of try and let a little bit in and a little bit more, then that sort of opens and allows more to come in. And, yeah, for a long time I didn't think I was worthy of happiness. I was sort of knocked down for most of my childhood, the black sheep, pretty critical father, very critical, cruel father actually, but he was broken and I could sort of look at him compassionately, but it took a lot of healing for me to then actually give myself permission to say, well, actually I'm allowed to be happy too or I'm allowed to be happy full stop and start making choices to support that regardless of how I might be perceived.

44:41So it still all comes back around to that whole, if you can face death and realise how short life is, and it is a short life that goes on by, then you make more courageous decisions. And it's not selfish. It's just it's caring for yourself as well as others. Yeah. And, you know, I think we can all fast forward and imagine ourselves potentially as old people or whenever at the end of our life and look back and think oh my god why didn't I just feel happier more often why didn't I leap into joyful situations or move towards things that made me feel happy I also think there's a weird cultural thing with happiness that I often find it and I think I would feel the same outside of my working life but say on Instagram if I talk about something I've struggled with whether it's insomnia or whatever's going on for me at that point you're guaranteed to get a pretty good reaction not in terms of like it being necessarily positive but one of connection people go oh god me too i i totally that resonates with me i understand i felt those feelings whereas it feels scarier to say do you know what guys i tested myself out with this one maybe a couple of years ago because i was feeling really good i've been to the beach with my kids on the south coast and it was kind of chilly but gorgeous i just felt really like great and I thought right I'm gonna say it out loud and you know kind of admitted that I found that harder to do to say at the moment I feel bloody brilliant because the reaction might not be positive the reaction might be well good for you yeah of course you would of course you would yeah yeah yeah it's almost a harder thing to admit it's very strange yeah it is but the more you can do it the more you're giving other people permission to do it as well yes yes it's so important so if you can sort of look at that from a perspective of service yes then that might that's a very good point do you think after all of these incredible people that you met and who were so beautiful and sharing their thoughts at the end of life with you do you think it's possible to live life without regret yes yeah I do and I'll tell you why and it's not because you're not going to make mistakes.

46:52So mistakes are how we learn. And that's part of the human experience, are mistakes. The only thing that turns a mistake into a regret is our own judgment upon it. It's really just a matter of perspective. So every regret is a mistake, but every mistake doesn't have to be a regret. And so if we can look back and recognize we've made a mistake, we're already wiser than we were in that moment. And whether the mistake was an hour ago or 20 years ago, if we can look back as who we are now with compassion for that younger person and think, wow, okay, they, you know, like there's things I've said and done that I still cringe about, but I look back and I think, dear Bronnie, you know, you darling young woman or you darling child or you, you know, you darling 30-year-old, whatever.

47:43and I just think, okay, well, you did your best as who you were in that moment, on that day with those circumstances and the fact that you can look back and recognise that it's a mistake means I've obviously evolved and so I'd rather look back on that younger part of myself, like I say, whether that was an hour ago or decades ago and have compassion for their humanity and to realise, okay, well, learn by it but be gentle enough on myself to not carry the weight of judgment. It's really only, that's all regrets really are because we've all done stupid stuff. We've all done stuff we wish we hadn't.

48:25There's stuff we've probably never tell people where we think, oh, you know, and we just, like I say, I cringe when I think of some of the things I've said and all the men I've shared my body with when I was younger and not treated myself with self-respect and stuff like that. And I cringe with some of it. But then I look back and think, you darling broken person, you're just human, you're just like everyone else. And that actually stops me now from allowing mistakes to become regrets because I can say sorry to my daughter. You know, we say sorry and I tell her no one's perfect. I'm an imperfect human like everyone else.

49:04I'm going to make mistakes, but I'm going to say sorry, you know, if I can recognize it in that time. And so, yeah, I think it is possible, Fern, to not have regrets. It's not possible to go through life without mistakes. Yeah. But it's certainly possible to not have regrets. Well, this is it. It's not about living life perfectly. So you get to the end and go, I did life perfect. Bye-bye. This is about getting there and, like you say, having the self-compassion to notice where we might have gone a bit off-piste and we can forgive ourselves and know that we did our best at any given time. Yep. And then, you know, then we can just love that we were present enough to do our best.

49:43Yeah. Oh, it's beautiful. Well, as I said, Bronnie, this book has made a deeply huge impact on me. I loved reading it. It was a joy to read. I loved reading about all these brilliant people that you were fortunate enough to work with and speak to and spend great time with. It's just a beautiful account of all of it. So thank you. And it's been a pleasure to talk to you today. It's been a joy. Thank you, Fern. Thank you. Oh, Bronnie, thank you so much for that gorgeous conversation. So much of that chat has stayed with me and I think will stay with me forever. One point being that piece around living authentically, which can seem a bit wish-washy and faffy to say that you've got to do so.

50:32But when you actually break it down in a way that Bronnie did, it makes absolute sense. and I think will make me live even more from the heart and probably with even more urgency if that's possible. That book, The Top Five Regrets of the Dying, is out now and goes into each of those regrets with even more beautiful depth. We read lots more books like this in the Happy Place Book Club, by the way, so do come over and join us on Instagram, at Happy Place Book Club. Loads of good stuff on there, loads of beautiful books. I'm an avid reader. Come and chat to me about them. And we also share lots of really delicious pictures of things like the world's best libraries, if you fancy that.

51:11All right, back here next week with a potentially life changing deep dive into another often silent subject matter. Until then, the biggest thanks again to brilliant Bronnie, to the producer Anushka Tate at Rethink Audio and you gorgeous, courageous souls. Thank you.

51:37Thank you.