Charlotte Church

0:00Hello and welcome to Happy Place with me Fern Cotton. This is the show that gives you a moment to breathe and slow your day down. Today, I'm chatting to Charlotte Church. I'm releasing myself from all sorts. Patriarchy, from capitalism and how that makes us feel and that we have to buy stuff, we have to look a certain way. Mother guilt, overworking, you know, family baggage that I'm bringing. I'm bringing a lot. Charlotte's career as a singer began when she was 11 years old, but more recently she's moved away from the bright lights of the music industry to walk down a totally different path. What hasn't changed though is her personal connection with music.

0:49It was so fascinating having this chat with Charlotte and hearing about how sound was a real part of her healing process after she suffered a huge loss. Getting outside, connecting with a wilder part of herself was transformational too. Now she's sharing what she's learnt about the healing nature of both music and nature at her new Welsh retreat, The Dreaming. We had this chat at the end of last year. I was in my very rainy garden studio in London and Charlotte was at The Dreaming, putting the finishing touches to the beautiful house she'll be hosting people at. Honestly, I felt incredibly calm just looking at her background, filled with cushions and soft candlelight and one of those things called macrame.

1:36Utterly divine. I really hope this chat calms you too. All right, here's the show.

2:06Hello, Charlotte Church. Hey, Fern, how are you? I'm really good and very calm, looking at your delightful background. Look at that. Yeah, I am currently in the Dreaming, which is this new retreat centre that I'm opening. And yeah, it is. It's pretty lush. Oh, my God. I've obviously been like heavily stalking the dreaming on Instagram and looking around all the beautiful rooms and the themes you've got there, the moon and the womb and all these gorgeous ideas in place. It's so wonderful. So how's it coming on? I know you've obviously you've seen this house, you've fallen in love and you've renovated it from scratch with this huge goal in mind.

2:53how how is it all it's great we are really really close so um we are open for dry hires so uh for practitioners to come and dry hire um airbnbers and stuff for um till the end of the year and then in the new year we open as the dreaming and that's the full dreaming offer then we are incredibly close and it feels wonderful oh my god I bet well after all this time and this energy that you put into it so when you found this gorgeous house which is in the most exceptional location did you have this idea immediately or did you just need the house and then you were like okay actually it's got a purpose to be honest it was the land that I fell in love with so I was just looking for a patch of land to start like a glamping business or something on and I came here I didn't even come into the house first.

3:50I went straight into the forest and there were two waterfalls on site. They like what the waterfalls flank either side of the house, 33 acres of woodland. I mean, and it's just like you've got red kites circling above. There's amazing flora and fauna. You know, the ecosystem, the animal kingdom that's here is just all really present as soon as you get here, particularly the bird life. and so I just was hooked right from the get-go and to be honest I just and there's bridges going all the way across the the stream when you look at the waterfall and I was just stood on one of the bridges just like and I just knew this was going to change the rest of my life so I just stood on there just like this is it like this is a real and I just I just knew it immediately it was really weird I've never felt like that before and yeah from from then on I have been its faithful servant oh yeah put everything into it yeah so but it's good it feels it's so lovely and it's gonna hopefully help a lot of people because I was looking on your website yesterday and you've got you know these these desires and these goals to allow people to to come to this beautiful space to reconnect to nature to get into their natural body's rhythm and to explore themselves and their life and their past how are you going to do it what sort of things can you do at the dreaming so there are a million different ways that we can connect with nature and that we can connect with ourselves you know some people do it through you know really big deep dive work where you're working with your inner child and you know there are there are so many different ways in which to connect with self and connect with nature um I think what I am really passionate about is about making it a gentle experience very gentle very soft you know to really exalt the feminine you know and understand that we are a balance of both masculine and feminine but actually a lot of what we do here is what is really missing in the world so the world is really direct and penetrative and fast and you know deep and hard and you know and actually I just want this to be like a real softening and opening a gentleness a slowness and a lot of it be about rest because I just think people's nervous systems are fried and we just need to rest and come to a place where we're sort of just held in this Welsh bosom of this valley and just to you know be be allowed to feel safe enough to to just rest and enjoy and play yeah and so and we'll do that through all sorts of things like forest bathing and stargazing and silent disco and sound journeys and singing and chanting and art.

6:52So there's a million ways that you can do it. A lot of what we do will be sort of centered around what nature gives us naturally. So, you know, the dawn or the dusk or the moonlight or a lot of it centered around these beautiful vignettes of experience that nature provides us with daily. And just sort of zoom into that and pay a bit of attention to that. and then that's all you need really. I need the Welsh bosom valley right now. I think like everybody, you know, you're totally correct. It's harsh out there. The world seems very noisy and very fast and frantic and I think we all know that we need to slow down more and we probably all find it quite challenging to find those pockets of time but also to allow ourselves that as well.

7:45I think that's a big part of it. So it's it's a really beautiful idea. Are all of these practices and methods, things that have helped you over the years personally? Yeah, absolutely. And things that I have been able to tap into, to be honest, nature saved me in so many ways. It's been, it's been a real bomb at the times when I've been going through, you know, some of the most painful, griefy, whether it's, you know, losing people I went through. I lost a baby, which was really traumatic. And I gave birth to her at 17 weeks. And that was really hard. And I was just never inside. Like I spent the whole summer just outside recovering, connecting.

8:31And nature just soothed me, like just really soothed me back to some sort of balance and health. and you know singing and sound there's so much science now about how we heal and and of course as I've said there are a myriad of ways to do it and there are and people people do it in different ways much like learning different therapies work for different people but I think sound music singing connecting with voice vibrations and the vibrations of music and sound is something that can it's it's very universal it's very easy to access but it's it's really it can be really transformative so I think that yeah these are all all things that I myself have found really useful in the past 10 years but also that I'm training to do now as well so I'm training to be a practitioner myself in sound healing and learning from elders and wise people how to how to hold people how to hold people to you know dig deeper or have a have a deep delve but also just how to hold them and bring out the joy and the play that's so gorgeous it's really exciting to hear you talk about that and the fact that you're you know you're up for this not only a new challenge in in terms of creating this this whole place this retreat but also taking yourself on a whole new path career-wise to become a practitioner I think like you've just said you know when you go through something traumatic or very deep you often are then spurred on to walk down a completely different path and I'm so sorry to to hear about the loss of your baby I didn't know about that and um having had you know a lot of friends who have experienced the same that grief um is also of course teamed with your body having been through so much and like you say nature is so important And I think we underestimate it in those times where we're emotionally, mentally and physically going through stuff.

10:34It is on a cellular level. It's doing something. You know, how how did that impact your healing from from such a tricky time? I feel like I I just I really allowed myself to be intuitive. I felt very wild and very feral. And there was things that I just had to do. and I think in grief you you allow yourself all sorts do you know what I mean like you really you get a bit feral and I think just to help help us move move into those spaces and move through those spaces to be able to create ceremony was a huge part of it for me so again I'd never I'd never done anything ceremonial before I'd never I didn't know about any indigenous practices I didn't know about any Celtic or witchy practices or again there's loads of things to choose from um but I was just going completely off of this just sort of intuitive drive but you know we created this this funeral for her in in our garden outside in nature we had our friends and family there we wrote all of the words ourselves we sang we and you know I made the space for the couple of days before I had sort of you know decorated all the space which ended up being this circle and and honestly I had I was I was so far away from any of that sort of stuff of ritual or ceremony or understanding it or even it being you know for me at all I was just like oh gosh no I mean I used to be a Catholic but I've got no idea about that sort of stuff and I think from that experience it was just like oh oh my gosh that what we what we did there that that was magic it was almost like we imbued the ground the earth with such intention and power that now when we go to that place which is Billy's garden it's like it's it feel it's got an energy like it really feels different to how it did before when it was just a bit of field yeah um and so it's been so it's been such a powerful thing for me in my own healing journey and I suppose you know you you must feel the same Fern to be doing what you're doing as well you you've got the happy place you know which is a huge help for people really starting to educate and help people a lot of the time who maybe don't think that well-being stuff or anything esoteric is for them just making it much more accessible.

13:14Yeah. So that we can all have more tools. Yeah, totally. And I think, you know, like you said, a moment ago to counterbalance the sort of hardness that is out there and that intensity of anxiety that I think, you know, so many people that I speak to even just on a on a friendship level, not even in the capacity of doing happy place, wake up feeling edgy. And I do, you know, I did today, I think I just overtired it, there's nothing specific, but there's that sort of anxiety of is there something wrong did I do something wrong and I think all of us are feeling that because of the bombardment of media that's out there good and bad and we need to counterbalance it with something and I think it's really wonderful that you've personally found especially in the context of grief something that's been so massively helpful and powerful and helped you move with that grief I mean we've done countless podcasts now on grief because it's so necessary and it always seems to be the case that diving into it rather than suppressing it or moving through it or with it too quickly diving into it is the way to have I guess some sort of acceptance some sort of physical and emotional acceptance of something that you don't want to be happening I think it's probably the scariest thing you can do but maybe from having these conversations it seems that is that's the way to go absolutely but I also think that there is there are ways in which you can do that over years you know it doesn't have to be in and don't get me wrong like that the big deep dive transformational retreats are amazing like exceptional the people that hold them you know the work that they manage to get done is exceptional but I think that there are ways in which you can face it slowly because for some people it's it's really scary and it's really big and I think like at the dreaming I wanted to create a space where it's so diverse in the people who can access it you know we've got a pay what you can space so there's basically a a free or pay what you can space on every single retreat but there'll be so many different sorts of people around the table some people who have done well-being stuff for years some people who are elders some people who have never read a self-help book would not think a retreat was for them all coming together all doing these very simple things in nature like it doesn't need a load of equipment it doesn't have to be expensive it's about it's about focusing on togetherness and beauty and nature and some some of the most transformative practices could be to do with your breath yeah you know learning a couple of different ways of breathing which can absolutely change the game for you for your nervous system for your levels of anxiety again like I science we know so much now about the body and about healing and about how to breathe and about the bodily functions and and about how the mind works and the brain gut connection I'm trying to bring in all sorts of wonderful practitioners and esoteric spiritual practitioners, along with like scientists and academic learned people and just having a bit of a smorgasbord of all sorts of magic treats.

16:36yeah it's so lovely but like you say so much of it is free you know like just going for a walk if you can or like you say learning some breath techniques it's deeply powerful and can make a huge difference and it is just sort of breaking down those barriers of this isn't just for a certain group of people and I love the fact that you've got that pay what you can I think that's really important and brilliant and certainly the direction that the whole wellness movement should be moving in because this it has to be for people that feel like left behind or like it's not for them or people that are really struggling and don't see a way out of their situation so I think it's so cool what you're doing how much of all of this learning that you've been doing and all of these practices that you've introduced into your life how much of that is a reaction to the earlier part of your life the crazy whirlwind globally traveling insane amounts of fame attention is it a direct reaction to that part of your life?

17:36I don't think so. Really? I think, yeah, honestly, I, cause I, it's weird, but I sort of always had, um, a good dose of perspective about it all. I sort of always knew that it was bullshit and, and, you know, I, I, I stayed in Cardiff and I, you know, I kept my same friend. I just stayed really rooted. So even though the press made out like I was a crazy wild child. I mean, don't get me wrong. I loved clubbing and I still do. Well, you were a young part, like everybody, but everybody likes doing that. It's not unusual. You were just very famous at the time. To be honest, I think it's more to do with society and how everybody's feeling.

18:21Like I am part of society. I am part of this massive ecosystem that we call Earth. And the way that society and civilization requires us to be at the moment it's just it's too much the rate of change the speed the amount of information like it's just it's all of it is just a bit much for us like our physiology is still the same as it was tens of thousands of years ago and we can't really cope with this level of stimulation yeah and so we need to find these places where not only are we able to in a safe space you know really feel like we can relax and turn off connect back with nature remember what it is and how simple it can be but also just to really connect in with ourselves and with each other as as you said like it doesn't it doesn't have to be that complicated and it doesn't have to be very expensive it just it's just about noticing developing our awareness again because so much of all the tech and internet stuff is about attention.

19:32Like you're having your attention commodified and just being constantly distracted. But the brain is plastic. We've got neuroplasticity, which means that up until old age, they never thought it was possible. They thought the brain sort of slowed and connections started to get a bit trickier. But actually, the neuroplasticity within the brain carries on as long as you use it, use it or lose it. So we are able to change our behaviours and it's just about doing a little bit every day. Yeah, because I read an article recently that you'd said that for a long time you'd felt like a caged bird and now you feel like this sort of wild woman and you're not sure what that means to you yet, but you're sort of unravelling years of conditioning.

20:19What did that conditioning look like? What are you trying to break free from? Oh, my days. Shit loads. Shit loads. And look, like, I'm not a finished product by any stretch of the imagination. Like, I feel in some ways like I'm right on the start of my journey. You know, for people who will be coming here who are also at the start of their journey, like, I feel like I've got a bit of a kindred with them, you know? I'm releasing myself from all sorts patriarchy from capitalism and how that makes us feel and that we have to buy stuff we have to look a certain way mother guilt, overworking you know, family baggage that I'm bringing I'm bringing a lot I hear you I hear you I'm bringing a lot but it's just about, you know, being able to sit with it and be gentle be so gentle So that's really what I'm sort of doing for my own healing stuff is just sort of like, okay, how am I just going to really, really ease into it all, basically.

21:31And bringing all of that stuff to the table, and I hear you on many counts, how does that manifest for you? For me, I still don't sleep brilliantly. I can get very anxious about any sort of change around sleep. If I'm, you know, if I stay somewhere outside of my home or whatever it might be, if I've got stuff in my mind, I can just not sleep all night. And it feels like hell on earth, like absolute torture. And I still get bouts of anxiety, not as bad as I used to, but I can still have the odd panic attack here and there. But luckily, way, way less frequently than I used to. How how does that manifest for you?

22:10All of that baggage, stress, conditioning and everything else? I think, you know, as I as I go along in this journey, I'm finding loads more tools, things that I'm really drawn to do. but I mean how it manifests for me on a bad day I suppose is that I overwork you know I've still got triggers and stuff that I'm not aware of patterns of behavior which you know I uh I'm starting to get you know some awareness of but I still haven't you know really fleshed out that I really understand and also I can get a bit OCD so that that's when I know you know around my periods and stuff I get pretty OCD so it's just you know just bits and bars just managing yeah bits and bars and to be honest a lot of what I do is is about sound and singing yeah and I've always soothed myself with it I realize now that since I was a little girl I've been soothing myself with singing and I suppose one what I really want to get across at the dreaming as a practitioner because with shows like, you know, X Factor and singing shows and stuff, I think it's made a lot of people feel like, oh, I can't sing or I'd get ridiculed if I try to.

23:33But one thing that I really want for people to understand when they come here and engage in any sort of sound healing stuff is that music only became performative a couple of hundred years ago in the 1500s when people were, you know, troubadours and jesters performing in courts for the aristocracy on harpsichords and stuff before that it was very communal very much a part of you know daily life and daily expression and and I think that it's it's really it's really important to get back to that and get back to the the incredible power not just the healing power for people individually to process and understand what's gone on in their day but also just to um to be together because when we sing together our heartbeats start to sink which I love I love that fact so I mean there's just so there's so much stuff with the sound heating and the singing which I'm just like oh it's so gorgeous god you know what yours that really sent me off on a mental tangent you saying that there because you know you're right you know those those tv shows which we're so they're so commonplace we're so used to that sort of format these days has really changed how we probably personally feel about singing because I often think if someone amazing like Bob Dylan or Jimi Hendrix had gone on one of these shows they would have lasted two seconds and been shown the door and but they would have been ridiculed and they're some of like the musical game changers out there because they had a unique quality something that really resonated with people lyrically and melodically and the tone of their voice but now it's all about are they pitch perfect do they sound like a pop star and I think it has put people off singing and I I was watching a video again stalking you on Instagram um of you sort of sat in this gorgeous woodland just like making noise and it feeling really good and um and I wonder when you were very little and you were on these huge stages, mic in hand, everybody watching you, was there still a feeling of this is for me, this makes me feel good?

25:48Or was there a monotony, an autopilot that sort of kicked in in those very, I'm sure at times terrifying moments of seeing to presidents and millions of people on live TV? Did you get that feeling still? I had no fear. The fear grows as you get older, I think. god yeah and so i you know when i was 12 13 and especially then you but by 14 15 when the fear might start to kick in i it was i was so used to doing it by that point then that apart from like oh my gosh do i look okay and that sort of you know narcissism that you get at that age now the singing was yeah easy peasy it didn't matter what the stage was i hadn't i had total confidence and total ease so i i didn't i wasn't worried about that sort of stuff at all i'd get much more nervous to be to talk and to be interviewed or you know then as I got older if I had to um I remember at 18 I addressed the Oxford University which was all all about press ethics and stuff and I think that was one of the first things I'd ever done which I was just like absolutely bricking it for because it was a it was a speech and I wasn't used to using my voice in that way I wasn't used to being an orator but yes singing was singing was easy peasy and I loved it I mean some days I'd be totally in the zone you know I remember doing like I mean I did some gigs in some phenomenal places one in the place called Saint David's in Jerusalem I mean you know just some like exceptional ancient cool places on earth and so and I think that though when it was really special like that like I would just get really in the zone and then other times if it was just like a tv performance then I'd just be thinking about all sorts of other things like I mean you know have I text so and so back and I wonder what my friends are doing over here and just not thinking about it yeah that's so good isn't it weird like that fear absolutely has crept up on me over the years because I used to go on live tv without even thinking about I was like quite complacent I was just sort of like yeah this is what I do whereas now oh my god I'm riddled with all sorts of fears of things that could go wrong and oh just absolute nightmare stuff but you know to have that fearlessness as a youth is oh I took it for granted so much so and also I am a speaker and I had to do um a speech of sorts at Cambridge University shit myself yeah absolutely shit myself nothing scarier than being around very very intelligent people I didn't even go to university so I was like what the fuck am I doing this is a nightmare it's so scary it's so scary let's talk about the press because you know we've certainly both dealt with a whole heap of shit in that direction and it is nasty and ugly I mean it affected me and I've been very open and honest about it in a gruesome way to the point that I'm you know I'm still very much healing from that side of things and I keep myself as out of that world as I can I have my little happy place bubble where I feel safe and I feel like I can explore thoughts and subjects without being on a platform that's too exposing where I'm going to end up being in some awful paper with a headline I just I cannot live in that world anymore and obviously you know that sometimes that does happen accidentally but I try and keep myself over here and that is a direct reaction and relationship with some ugly ugly stuff from the past how has that sat with you do you feel healed and at peace with certain things that have happened to you over the years or do you still feel the the aftershock of that I think you know I've done a lot of healing from it but I absolutely hear you it's like you know when for vast periods of your life and your young life as a woman both you and I had our narrative totally stolen yeah and not just stolen just like twisted and made to be some of the ugliest you know most shameful things that they could possibly make it and it's it that it will that will never be righted you know it was it was something that was stolen from us and so yeah whilst I've I've made peace with it as I think to as much as I can I mean one way I I once had healing described to me was this idea that you keep you'll keep going back to all of the painful things but it will just it just in more and more detail almost like the kaleidoscope and but but actually you know the more you go back to it the more able you are to go back to it and the more you see the the total beauty even in that kaleidoscopic pain and confusion and that you you then start to sort of make the the bridges to understand how how this is you know part of why who you are why you are and what your gifts have been through the pain that you've learned yeah um so I think that eventually I think we all figure out this is this is a sort of a Buddhist way to think I I think um not that I'm a Buddhist in any way shape or form but that that suffering ultimately is a gift that all that all of that pain it's it's like it's a part of the it's a part of the process of existing on earth yeah like to be honest none of us have a clue why we're here I mean unless you're really religious and you've got a very clear idea of, you know, what the point of existence is and what happens when you die.

31:51You know, I think the majority of us are all a bit like, oh, I don't know. Totally. Trying to figure it out. No, I think you're absolutely right. And I think, you know, we've both been, I guess, very lucky that we have been able to quite tangibly turn pain into something else. So I, you know, indirectly, I did. I definitely did not plan to have a thing called Happy Place or even a podcast in that depth of total despair. I was just like, OK, everything's gone wrong. Game over. And then incrementally, very luckily, I've been able to turn it into something which I feel massively, massively grateful for.

32:29And I can see that, you know, I know that it's not a direct reaction to your past, what you're doing today. But I think certainly you can channel all of that pain or feeling misunderstood into wanting to help other people, which is a really good thing. But I think there is, you know, for me personally, still an acceptance that, yes, it's been brilliant and a gift of sorts to do something totally different. But I'm still not completely rid of the weird manifestation of that anxiety, which, you know, comes out completely randomly in other areas of my life. So sleep, certainly. And it's not a fear of the press in those moments.

33:05It's just that's where it's landed. And I've got a weird, almost phobia of of going off of some sort of timing routine that I'm on. Like if things go off and I have to go to bed very, very late or I have to get up extremely early or me and the kids had to eat at a different time. The anxiety is so disproportionate to something that isn't a big deal that people who work night shifts have to do all the time. I've got a phobia of that. And I want to get constantly. This is why I love healing and trauma therapy, all that stuff. I want to understand it. Like, why is that? Where did that come from? What?

33:46Why has it manifested in that way? I find it fascinating. Yeah, I do. I do as well. I think for, and for me, it's the other way. Like I am so like anti-routine to the point where I'm like, part of me is like, oh my God, desperate for the routine. But you know, I really, I counter will. I really push against it. And, you know, I want to, and it's almost like, you know, I love having, again, like almost kaleidoscopic potentialities always open and available and and I find then just sort of like really committing and having you know I just love to have like the whole array all the time I don't know if that that's a bit abstract and doesn't really make much sense but I totally think that that's probably a trauma response in some in some way you know we've just always it's almost like that hyper vigilance of just like where's all where's all my exit routes where's all the potentials and so I think the the fact of the matter is I mean Kanye West said it the other day and it's best not to listen to anything that Kanye West ever says anymore because correct you know he is saying some terrible things but he called the world trauma drunk and I actually thought that that was quite interesting because I think that for a long time now, like getting on to hundreds, thousands of years, we've been living with systems that systematically oppress, you know, whether that's patriarchal systems, whether it's, you know, how we're oppressing nature, whether it's our food production systems, whether it's educational systems, whether it's health systems even to a certain degree like we are we're quite far down the road of it being very very difficult and very difficult situation for parents to raise children in parents to traumatize themselves and so we we've got these compounded sort of generational traumas that have just built up and again like I feel so hopeful that sounds like I don't that sounds like it's oh my gosh that sounds really complicated and difficult to get through I don't think it is that difficult I just think that it needs almost like in the way that we need to shift our gaze to nature and noticing and then therefore the more that we that we are connected with nature the better decisions that we'll make for the planet, the less we'll be interested in overusing the resources and stuff.

36:32It's much the same as with each other and healing this sort of intergenerational and generational trauma. It just takes a bit of awareness and a bit of attention. And that's going to go a long way Because as soon as you've got people who are really calmly able to deeply listen, really, really start to notice what it is that other people are saying when they're speaking, where it's not, all is not lost. I really am supremely optimistic for the future, which is why I'm doing this. I've got another project called the Awen Project which is a free to attend democratic school set in a democratic learning community set in a forest setting and I want to set more of them up all over the country so for me it's just about like I really believe in humanity I really want to do something as an activist but that feels like grassroots I went and I went you know on question time and I was part of campaigns and I went and I banged my drum about stuff but and that has its place in activism but I think I just I wanted something more something deeper and yeah and that's what this is much the same as much the same as you Fern so hats off to you as well yeah in my tiny way I'm yeah no I'm certainly trying and I think it's really interesting looking at that generational pain and the patterning we've talked a lot about that on this podcast actually and in many different ways I've had my mum on the podcast which was um actually massively insightful and sort of terrifying of course but like brilliant to him were about her own mental health struggles and I know obviously you and your mum have talked about her pain and and the sort of trickiness of having that heightened experience and fame in your life at very early age whilst your mother was dealing with mental health problems at the time is that a discussion that you have openly I know it's never particularly a relaxing conversation to have but do you feel you can step into that territory with your mum and talk about everything that you're doing and mental health.

38:47Yeah, we have those conversations. I think that she's still, you know, very much like we were talking about earlier with the press. I mean, she really, she got it worse than I did, much worse than I did, because she was an adult for a lot of when the press attention on me was most intense and so she was fair game when I wasn't and so she definitely has a lot of trauma from that really and from the way that she was treated um so I think I'm always wary to talk about it and we tend to we try and keep it like very contained where where we talk about it and how we talk about it and I all I'm always sort of getting her consent for for when we talk about it and what she's comfortable with at the time which changes depending on how she's doing you know because it's still a battle for her but of course then you know the papers still pick up on stuff and then there'll be an article in something like the daily mail which you know really makes her like oh but then there's other times where she's like oh gosh I really want to share this like I know my story is really going to help people because she has she is it is so visceral for her you know and it's not you know it's not in the past for her she's living through it it's it's still a daily thing and so I really think I'm really looking for ways for her to be able to tell a story and connect with people because I think she I think it would be a massive for her own heeding.

40:21And also she's so funny. So it would be like, she's so outrageous and coarse and fabulous, but also it's very sad and it's really hard, but she's got both of those. So I think that - It's a great combo. It would be a great combo. And I think people would absolutely adore it. So yeah, I'm trying to think of ways in which, but much like you said, but something that's like a bubble, a bubble of safety that it's not like then, you know, the media can just go on and keep doing the terrible things they do. And how open is your mum to trying out the different therapies that you're looking into and the different techniques that you're going to be offering at the Dreaming?

41:07She is like chomping at the bit. She's going to be there the whole time. I'll be there. I can't walk up that ill mind. that's gonna be brilliant that's gonna be great totally she's she's so funny she's brilliant yeah so but yeah she's chomping at the bit to try it all out yeah it's great it's so brilliant and how do you feel about being in the public eye today obviously you've created your own safety bubble and your own area where you can work comfortably and explore and do things that feel really right to you how do you feel when you are sort of sucked back into that world and obviously on a really practical level, much like what I have to do if I'm launching a new Happy Place thing, you have to then integrate back into that world and go on TV shows and talk about it.

41:53So there's the awareness or do a press interview. How do you feel about that today? It's tricky. It's complex, isn't it? Because you're dipping back into all of the stuff that, you know, it's like wearing a nice outfit and you know getting your hair and makeup done and that seems trivial and small but when you're you know when I'm very uh conscientious about sort of breaking patriarchal chains and even patriarchal chains amongst women and our self-image and and our image of each other that just is a tiny bit of a feeding into it do you know what I mean um especially if you're like well I have to like I have no other choice but to go and look as pretty as I possibly can look because I'm going to be on telly even little things then like with the with the climate crisis stuff like you know I try and live as sustainably as possible and I try and think about you know the decisions that I make and what I buy and what I consume and and the dreaming's very much been made with that in mind as well like we've got we've got a hydra mill and we've got a water source heat pump so lots of our energy and our hot water and stuff is all renewables and then you know even just things like going up to London and you know there's just cars everywhere and everybody's drinking plastic bottles and I'm just like ah yeah it sounds it sounds trivial but every time I do foray back into that sort of showbiz world which is you know is where I've grown up it is in it is in a way you know a comfortable place for me I do understand it and I've grown up in it but as as I get more and more aligned I think with with nature and something slower something more peaceful then every time I sort of foray back into a tv studio I'm a bit like oh yeah feels jarring yeah I hear you I totally get it I think there's also there is so much judgment which I totally feel and like we were having a really interesting chat on the podcast recently with Emrata who's obviously written this amazing book My Body and it's all about the female body and sexuality and I haven't stopped thinking about it since because I I've often thought I don't want to play into this thing that I have to look a certain way and dress a certain way blah blah blah but then then after speaking to her I was like but I actually really enjoy that and I think I should still be able to talk about mental health but also like wear a wicked outfit and put loads of makeup on and blow dry my head you know what I mean it's like otherwise I'm surrendering to again the patriarchy so I totally get it it's jarring and it and there's I think you constantly question yourself why am I doing this am I doing this for me or is it for to impress other people I'm constantly in that headspace of why am I dressing in this way why am I wanting to look a certain way but I think after talking to Em Rutter I'm like I actually just really enjoy it and like I was saying to my producer before this I felt really shit yesterday and just a bit like grubby and disgusting and I wasn't doing anything remotely in the public eye or recording and I put full face of makeup on to go for a walk and to pick the kids up from school and I did that for me no one else so I think it's that we as women we're constantly questioning like why am I doing this and who is it for and but I think there's room for it all of course absolutely there is totally because it's play yeah it's adult play you know to to you know to paint your face it can be play it can be art you know it can be whatever you want it to be to put together an outfit for me like it's all always been a bit of a struggle do you know what I mean like I'm just like I don't know what to wear I'm terrible at putting shit together like I can put together a room lovely jubbly but an outfit especially when I you know you're trying to manage the fashion and all of that I mean I but also like I go I go to extremes like I'll go to something where I'm supposed to be dressed up in slippers like hair like this for example and then I'll go to something which is just like I don't know a little family meal on a Sunday and I've got an almost ball gown on yeah love it I come down the kids will be like what are you doing yeah why have you got that on I'm like because I feel like and I feel fabulous today yes you feel fabulous I'm so here for that and how important has it been for you over the years staying in Wales because I'm sure especially when you were in your teens and 20s you could have lived in like Hollywood like all the places we imagine are so glamorous or even you know moving to a big city London or wherever it might be how important is it that you stay in the motherland I think it's been really important for me and my family were fuming about it for a while because we you know I at the time when I between 12 and 16 basically America was my biggest territory we were out there all the time like 50 flights a year out to New York and LA and I was touring America all the time and so like my mum and dad had spoken to my whole family about like let's all move to LA and I was like no really you stopped that one there is no way I'm moving to LA it's crazy I don't know anybody out there what about my friend I love Wales it means and it was it there was just simple little rituals like you know hitting that seven bridge and every time I hit the seventh bridge it was just like ah and then you know the local radio station would come on with the same songs that they were playing when I left and I knew that nothing had changed that much that regardless of how massive whatever it had been that I'd just done you know this was like it was the same and my friends were the same not much had changed not much had happened that I'd missed that I couldn't catch up on um so it was hugely important for me and I honestly you know that that's in a people way But now as I get older and I get a bit witchier and I get a bit more connected with the land, I do I do think that it's like a properly rooted thing.

48:23And people when they meet me now often just go like you're you feel really rooted, like you feel like a tree. And I do feel like that's like that's like my my sort of really rooty Welshness. Yeah, I love it. More Welshness, more witchiness, please. that's what we like yes Charlotte I'm so I'm so pleased to hear about all of this brilliant stuff you're doing and I can't wait to see what you do with the dreaming and to see how many people are going to get so much from it and have a most wonderful beautiful experience so I wish you all the luck in the world with it and it's just been so nice talking to you today thank you Fern honestly it's been totally lush and I've just got straight back at you like everything you do with Happy Place I'm a huge fan of Happy Place and it's just wonderful just to see you know the lives that you're changing in this this community growing and we just need more of these things like socially conscientious lots of women coming together lots of men too but like let's let's change the world let's be witches together babe yes yes

49:33Charlotte's a bit like a tree isn't she and I know that's an odd compliment but I totally get why she said that there was something incredibly stable and grounding about talking to her. Thank you so much for your time, Charlotte, you brilliant woman. The best of luck with the dreaming. I mentioned the episode with Emily Ratajkowski. Please, please scroll back in your podcast feed and listen to that if you have a second. It's been a couple of months since we had that chat, but I still think about it all the time. These conversations don't stop at the end of the podcast by the way we carry them on over on instagram at happy place official i would love to see you over there for more chat until next time a huge thank you again to charlotte to the producer anushka tate at rethink audio and to you gorgeous human beings

50:34Thank you.