Chiwetel Ejiofor: Trauma and success can coexist! Re-learning what being strong means

0:00Hello, I'm Fern Cotton and this is Happy Place, the show that questions what it means to be strong. Today, I'm chatting to Chiwetel Ejiofor. You always want to have a kind of vulnerability, I think, and sometimes resilience. Or if you go through hard things and, you know, you don't want to harden up. And that's one of the things that I've often tried to be careful of, that, you know, if you have that ability, you can tap into that area of yourself and your psychology that is like, I can struggle through this. I can deal with this, you know. And you might know that you have that capacity, but I think you also have to balance that sometimes with being vulnerable because some of it is a cover for not wanting to feel pain again.

0:42Right, let me tell you about my day when I went to meet Chivital, who is in the new Bridget Jones film, Mad About the Boy, which is out right now, by the way. Go and see it. It's really fun. I went to the screening of this. It felt so luxurious because I went to a screening in one of those cinemas where you get a comfy chair. Is there anything better? I hate normal cinema seats. And I was sat next to Greg James, who's one of my old pals. And we had such a lovely day. And we went at about 1pm. When have I been to the cinema in the middle of the day on like a Tuesday? Never is the answer. I loved every second of it.

1:18It was such a great experience. And it's a really fun film. There's some bits. Hugh Grant made me laugh out loud so many times. So went and saw the film. Then went to Claridge's, darling. Claridge's Hotel, which I've been to once before, is just the dream. It's like the most quintessentially old school British hotel you've ever been to. It's so decadent. When you walk in, there's instant you're just met by a tea room. And then you get in a lift that's got a chair in it, a little bench you can sit on in case your legs are a bit weary. Basically, what they do at these big hotels with films like this is a press junket where each member of the cast will be in a different hotel suite.

1:58and then you get ushered in. Think Notting Hill. You know the bit where the horse and hound bit, where Julia Roberts is doing a press junket and Hugh Grant, yet again mentioning him, goes in to do the horse and hound chat. It's like that. I was Hugh Grant in this case. So each celebrity is in a different, it's like a game show, each in a different hotel suite and then you go and meet your chosen celebrity and you get granted time with them. I mean, we had, I think, 45 minutes with Chiwetel. We were very, very lucky. Did me and Amelia from the Happy Place team wander the corridors trying to find Leo Woodle?

2:34Yes, we did. Were we successful, I hear you cry? No, we weren't. The closest we got was a cardboard billboard outside of the hotel suite. Anyway, it was a lot of fun. Chiwetel was in the most lovely mood, considering you have to sit when you do these junk hits. for like a days answering the same, I was about to say bullshit questions because some of them will be from some of the interviewers. Not me. No, no. I hopefully not anyway. But I just loved this chat. He was in the greatest mood ever considering he'd had to answer so many questions that week. You'll know, obviously, Chiwetel from his utterly incredible performance in 12 Years a Slave, a role that he almost didn't have the self-belief to take on, by the way.

3:19And he talks about that in this chat. What you might not know is that his dad died in a car crash when he was a tiny child, something that has obviously affected his life trajectory and outlook. He is a very thoughtful and incredibly intelligent man. And I think he's going to give you a lot to think about today. This is Hannah Burner from Giggly Squad. Opil is the first over-the-counter daily birth control pill available in the US. let's be real getting a birth control prescription is not always easy and it's so much admin in fact about a third of women face barriers to access prescription birth control between scheduling appointments missing work class or just trying to exist it's a lot but now opil is putting birth control in our control opil is a daily birth control that's fda approved full prescription strength and estrogen free and 98 effective when used as directed grab it online or at most major retailers no prescription or doctor's appointment needed.

4:21So if you're thinking about birth control, check out Opill to see if it's right for you. Use code Giggly for 25 % off your first month of Opill at opill.com. That's code Giggly at opill.com. Birth control in your control. We love to see it. The market's uncertain. Revenue's tied and hiring on hold. That's why results driven companies are using Upwork to keep work moving. Go to Upwork.com today and start hiring proven freelance talent fast. No bulky overhead, no rigid long-term contracts, just the right expert right when you need them. Work smarter and faster with Upwork. Go to Upwork.com now and find your freelance expert.

5:01That's U-P-W-O-R-K.com. Post a job for free and get started today. Hi, this is Knox from the Popcast with Knox and Jamie. And maybe like us at the Popcast, you also know people who have been smokers or vapors. And Zen is the one product it seems like everyone is talking about because there are many good reasons to make a change to Zen nicotine pouches. Reasons like Zen nicotine pouches are still America's number one choice for smoke-free, hands-free nicotine satisfaction. And you can choose between 10 varieties, each variety available in either 3 or 6 milligrams. Check out zen.com slash find to find Zen at a store near you.

5:36Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical. If you're a maintenance supervisor at a manufacturing facility and your machinery isn't working right, Grainger knows you need to understand what's wrong as soon as possible. So when a conveyor motor falters, Grainger offers diagnostic tools like calibration kits and multimeters to help you identify and fix the problem. With Grainger, you can be confident you have everything you need to keep your facility running smoothly. Call 1-800-GRAINGER, click grainger.com, or just stop by. Grainger, for the ones who get it done.

6:14all right let's crack on here's the show

6:39Hello Chiwetel. Hello. How are you today? I'm doing very well. How are you? I'm really good. Excellent. I'm really good. Now, obviously, you're in the thick of press for Bridget Jones. So I'm imagining you're being pushed from pillar to post. That's right. Quite hectic. Yeah, in a good way. And just a lot of talking about yourself and the film. Do you need to go and sit in a quiet room tonight and just speak? Yeah, the light's low, meditate. Yeah, it'll be good. It's probably needed. I mean, there is so much excitement about this film. I got to see it yesterday and I absolutely loved it. I mean, I was that peak age of maybe 16 when the book came out.

7:13So it was, I read it straight away, love the films. Have you got a long history with loving Bridget Jones, being involved in Bridget's world? Yeah, maybe from the films mostly. But yeah, I got on the train immediately as soon as the film, the first one, came out. And it was iconic and it sort of changed everything overnight in a weird way. You know, there was just this arrival of this extraordinary character. And actually an extraordinary set of characters, I think, that you sort of were able to find yourself in a little bit, you know, in one of them or a sequence of them. And then I think it was, you know, obviously Renee and this extraordinary performance at the center of it that was clearly remarkable and clearly going to take everybody on a journey.

8:03And then I thought the way that it was kind of put together, you know, the way that London looked, the way that... London in this one looks divine. Extraordinary, right? Oh, the heath and the snow. Yeah, it's really beautiful. And I think that sits in the tradition of the films and of all of them. They always found some way of representing the city and the sort of community and friendships, you know. I just feel that there's so much that was available to kind of relate to in the films. It's a good advert. If you're living in another country, maybe America, and you've never been to the UK, you'd be like, I'm literally booking now.

8:42I'm going. I want to find that little pub and watch the snowfall with the lanterns outside. Dreamy, dreamy. And it's a brilliant cast, as you've already mentioned. You've got the originals like Hugh Grant in there and Renee, but also some new young talent like Leo Woodall. Did you get to hang out much off set? Did you spend time together when you weren't filming? Yeah, I mean, a little bit because we kind of, you know, we would see each other a little bit, you know, during the day, you know, because we would sometimes be at the same location or something, but not doing a lot of the same scenes.

9:12One of the first scenes that I did was on the heath. And so it was when Bridget gets stuck in the tree. And so it was great because we got a chance to sort of meet a few of the people, including Leo and the kids as well. And it was great fun, a great way to start this journey. But there wasn't that much opportunity to sort of meet everybody through that, you know, but to spend time with Leo, for example, through that. But we're doing it now. We're definitely doing it now. Well, I heard you on the radio this morning with Chris Evans of Leo having an absolute riot. I mean, when you walk into Chris's studio, it's just, it's mayhem.

9:49It's true. It's at 11. It is. He brings the energy and you just have to match it. And it's what you very much did. but it was a really enjoyable interview. You play Mr. Wallacher, a science teacher. He is a very measured man. He's all about facts and science, which is a lovely combination compared to Bridget, who in this film particularly is even more chaotic than normal. I mean, there were a few scenes we've had kids where I was like, this is quite close to home, actually. This is very me at the moment. Would you say you're like Mr. Wallacher? Do you like facts? You like straight lines, science, this is how we're doing things?

10:23I would say I'm, I guess I would err more to that side than the Bridget side, I guess, more to that side than the slightly more chaotic side, but not as much as Mr. Wallach. He's very serious. He's very sort of, you know, straight up and down like six o 'clock. And that's fun to play, especially as he starts to find maybe these sort of other parts of himself as well. And these just sort of other things are kind of introduced into his worldview. And also he feels this kind of sense of responsibility, maybe is the wrong word, but there's something that he feels a connection with, also with Billy and these ideas of what this family is going through.

11:11And they're going through quite a lot of things. And maybe it's masked by some of the kind of chaotic energy of Bridget and so on. But Billy, especially in the midst of all that, is somebody that Mr. Wallach recognizes as one of his students who maybe does need a little bit of help or, you know, just a little bit of a kind of extra conversation, you know, because obviously he's dealing with a lot of things for a young guy. So that really represented to me something very interesting about Wallach, that through the sort of science and level-headedness, there's also something that's very empathetic.

11:49Yeah, there's a real softness. I mean, one of my favorite scenes was where you were on the school trip and you were sat with Billy, which is Bridget's son in the film, and he's lost his dad. And you had this really beautiful moment guiding him through it and helping him through that situation. and I, knowing your own personal backstory, was really taken aback by that moment because that's something that you obviously intimately know all about having lost your dad as a kid yourself. And I wonder, in a scene like that, how much do you need to or want to draw on your own personal experience to really convey that?

12:27And, you know, because I certainly felt like, God, this is extremely real, this moment. It's something you're feeling. I can see it in your eyes. But I don't know how much you find that a necessity to do a scene like that. Well, it's complicated, I think. And it is a question I think you always wonder, you know, as an actor, how much of the kind of, I suppose, the personal math you're going to do in a scene. And how appropriate that is. because sometimes going to a certain place might not really work if you end up sort of not really being able to continue the scene very easily because you're connecting with something very raw and emotional for you.

13:08But obviously you have to consider those things. You have to pull in a little bit of your own experience into those moments. But I tend to try to limit that, to be honest, to try to kind of sort of contextualize it. You know, I like to sit within a character, you know, within a character's experience. And it's useful, I think, if I have things that I can draw on or reflect on or think about when playing a scene. But I don't want to do that too, I don't want to lean into that too heavily. Yeah. Because in a way, it isn't about my experience. You know, it's about, in this instance, it's about Billy's experience, you know, and also about Mr.

13:54Wallach's experience, you know, which is very different to my experience. And so trying to maintain an honesty around that, I think, is really important. Yeah, that's very interesting, you know, because I've I guess I've never taken too much time to think about that with actors. You know, how much of their own personal emotion is in that moment? Is it just that's why they're bloody good at their job because they can bring that out of literally thin air? Or is it something that you're really deeply needing to process and go through? But equally, I'm imagining you don't want to traumatize yourself or take yourself to a place where, you know, you then go home feeling all of that.

14:32I think it depends. You know, I think it depends. If I had written, if the character of Mr. Wallach was written as having had that experience, say, had had an experience similar to my experience as a person, and then was talking to Billy in this way, so that it would make sense to bring in a lot more of the energies that I have into that moment. Now, I could invent that Mr. Wallach had that, but he doesn't seem to have had that experience in that way. So he's sort of coming at it with Billy from a point of view of empathy, but not necessarily that he's had a parallel experience himself. Otherwise, I think he would say that, you know, and he doesn't.

15:10So I think you have to kind of judge when to do that and when not to and how much of that kind of energy to release and how appropriate it is or in the sense of how much it makes sense to do that. Because I've certainly had to do and been in situations playing characters that have paralleled much more directly experiences that I've had. And then and in that sort of instance, you do tend to then allow that to arrive in the moment in sometimes a pretty emotional way. Yeah. You know, because you have to. Yeah. I mean, it's a powerful thing to watch. And I think, you know, as a viewer, you can see you can see those moments where it is so felt and real.

15:51And we've seen you do that on stage and in different cinematic experiences throughout time. I loved your interview that you did with Kirsty Young, where, you know, you talked about this subject in much more depth about your dad dying when you were 11 and having such a profound effect on your life and your outlook on the world. Do you think obviously going through something like that, losing your dad, and it was in a shocking situation in a car crash that you were also involved in. you learn from a very young age that life can be brutal but then I guess also in your long career that you've had and very successful one you also have experienced a hell of a lot of abundance in in many ways and seeing that you can you know manifest things and you can achieve goals would you say you're more of a pessimist or an optimist and what would you say has informed how you see the world oh no I definitely think I'm an optimist overall a hundred percent you know I don't think I have a kind of pessimistic outlook, really.

16:49I think that, I mean, I say that. I have not with sort of personal matters, not in the terms of I have a lot of faith in people. I don't necessarily have that much faith in the sort of, in the world, in the way that the world is kind of organized and run and the way specific things - Now more than ever. Exactly. It could be said, you know, the way things are kind of handled and the way that the sort of the system sort of works and doesn't work, you know. But I have a lot of faith in people. And so I have so the optimism that I have sort of comes from that, that that I think that there is so much inherent kind of goodness and capacity, you know, and people really striving to do things and make positive impacts.

17:42And I've seen, you know, I've been lucky enough to be in so many different places, so many different countries, to work with so many different people from so many different backgrounds and circumstances, you know, from very kind of affluent, you know, America and all of that to people who are really living in this completely different way and struggling with certain things that are, you know, very, that are sort of a, you know, about basic needs, really. And when I was making my film, when I directed the film in Malawi, people there, the Malawian people there were so extraordinary as people and extraordinarily supportive of me and the process of what we were doing and what we were trying to do in that film.

18:30And, you know, I think you have all of these moments of reacting and interacting with people. You recognize how special people are, how their perseverance, their capacity, the capacity for joy in so many different kinds of circumstances, just the richness of soul. You know, Balawe is often talked about as the kind of warm heart of Africa. And you really, as soon as you land there, you really recognize and feel that, feel that in the people that you meet. And it really tells you something about humanity. And so I feel like if you have experiences like that, this is a sort of long way of answering your question, But if you have experiences like that, it's very hard to come away from those experiences and feel pessimistic about people.

19:12Yeah. You know, people are wonderful. People can be absolutely extraordinary. People are so, so amazing. So, yes. So I am definitely optimistic. That's a very beautiful answer. Would you say that going through something at such a young age like that has made you particularly resilient? And have you noticed that in yourself? I hope so. Yeah. I hope that there's a resilience there. I hope that it doesn't turn into that it doesn't, you know, that you always want to have a kind of vulnerability, I think, you know, and sometimes resilience or if you go through hard things and and sort of certain struggles sometimes, you know, it can you know, you don't want to harden up.

19:52And that's one of the things that, you know, I've often tried to be careful of that, you know, if you have that ability, you can tap into that area of yourself and your psychology that is like, I can struggle through this, I can deal with this, you know. And you might know that you have that capacity, but I think you also have to balance that sometimes with being vulnerable. Because some of it is a cover for not wanting to feel pain again, not wanting to feel sorrow and sorrowful things, you know, and not letting that sort of thing in. Maybe because you know how hard it is, you know. But, you know, I say some things have to be kind of slightly unlearned, you know, in order to be vulnerable.

20:30And as an actor, I think specifically, you know, vulnerability and openness is really an important part of the job. job so yeah so sometimes I have to kind of unlearn or sometimes you know sort of try and forget yeah well it's habit isn't it if you're used to from a young age having to push through certain feelings or situations and dealing with I mean essentially I'd use the word trauma I don't know if that feels appropriate to you because it's your story but when you've got to deal with something like that then you it's it's a habit that you are used to dealing with a certain amount of pain or loss whatever it might be and and I'm sure that's quite tricky to unpick at times yeah I think trauma is a good is a good is a good work certainly traumatic I mean I suppose like any of those sort of words they sort of now or in recent times it feels like they cover a lot of ground that's not the overuse where trauma can be used for many things I think yours is in the truest sense yeah I've sort of certainly done a lot of heavy lifting yeah but yes it's you know a traumatic experience and what that sort of means and how you reflect on it and wanting to keep yourself vulnerable and open and not letting, I suppose, I guess it boils down to just not wanting to have traumatic experiences totally define you as a person, you know, that you can sort of move beyond that.

21:51It's, in a sense, the kinds of things that I'm talking about in this context are things that, you know, you can, in the end, you can rationalize, you know, and it's not, there's not, it's nothing that can be fixed. And it is part of life, you know, there are, so there are different levels of traumatic experiences, obviously, you know, it's, it's not an experience that I can, that there's, that anybody is responsible for, for example, or that anybody can be blamed for. And that's different as well, you know, that these are things that just happen and one has to accept within that context. There are very, there are different, obviously, there are various different things that happen to people.

22:34And in a way, because it is things for me that are things that sort of just happen, I suppose you can kind of rationalize it. And land on acceptance, I guess. Is that what the aim is? Exactly. I think that's what I'm sort of talking about. Acceptance is a weird word, though, isn't it? I don't, I never know quite what acceptance feels like. Yeah, I agree. I mean, obviously you can live on and, you know, have, you know, but maybe that is a form of acceptance. But I think that, I don't know if it's a word that really describes what it is trying to describe, you know. I don't think you ever completely have acceptance.

23:11It's like you just understand and rationalize, you know, where you are and what it means and how it's changed your life. And you can find areas, obviously there are the negative areas, but you can find how it's changed your life in ways that have made you richer and certainly have made you more capable of helping somebody else, which is always the best kind of way of coming through any sort of traumatic experiences. Like, how has that helped me with this other person's issues and stuff? did it have the sort of I guess in my head obvious outcome of you going life is short I'm I'm not going to fuck about here there's things that I want to do and I'm not going to waste time deliberating it I'm I'm I'm quite urgent about things do you think it had that effect for sure I mean naturally it wasn't even a thought you know it wasn't something it wasn't a conscious thing it was just that that was suddenly in my behavior you know and and and it wasn't even something that I even noticed until somebody else pointed it out really you know and I think it's when you have people around you or you it wasn't even close friends that I had it was when I was starting to work and travel and then you sort of meet people who are kind of new to you and so you're kind of presenting your energy and maybe you get on and so you're spending time together and at a certain point they're like what's going on you know who is this guy yeah what's happening you know what I mean like why are you involved in like 300 different things at the same time what's going on and you're like oh right maybe I'm this is my you know I have this kind of personality traits at this point because um because I have a kind of reaction to life which is that you've got to do everything you know yeah I mean and to be a successful actor the level that you're at top of your game that is like one in a billion it's so hard to get to where you're at You know, so many people want to be in brilliant films and want to be acting in jobs that they've got the pick of where you can read scripts and go, I'm not doing that.

25:13So you have to have an element of urgency. I'm imagining obsession. Yeah. Would you say that's true? I think so. At a certain point, you know, I think it's, you know, I can reflect on it now, I suppose, because I don't feel like I sit within that quite as much anymore. But certainly as I was beginning, you know, I think it is just a complete obsession. And, you know, and I think, you know, you're living out of a suitcase. You are traveling at the drop of a hat. You are going, you know, you're just always on the move. And it is always your number one priority, you know, is the work. And that's your life, you know.

25:51And it's a total experience, you know. It's who you know. It's who you meet. It's where you work. It's how you think. it's all of the things that define you for that period of time. And it's a blur, you know, I think for me, you know, like 20s and early 30s, it's a sort of a bit of a blur because of just the amount of movement, the amount of travel, the amount of work and exciting, you know, as well and work that you're passionate about, work that you love. And, you know, it's extraordinary. But it's total. Yeah. And that's the thing. I think it's such an incredibly competitive market, if I'm going to use that word, where you have to be all in.

26:33Otherwise, you're wasting your time, quite frankly. You've got to be all in. And also, I guess, have an element of self-belief. And again, I heard you talking to Kirsty about this in a roundabout way that the benefit of being, say, 19, 20 is that self-belief, again, isn't even a thought. It's just I'm going to do this job because I want to. And then maybe as we get older, I've certainly found this, that dissipates slightly and you're a bit more questioning yourself and maybe your ability or your choices. And having that slight naivety married with self-belief seems to be key, would you say? I think so.

27:05Yeah, I think that's absolutely right. I think that you need to, you know, I think self-belief comes so naturally when you're young. You know, this idea that I can do it. I can do it. Do anything I want. Exactly. And it is that thing. And that, you know, you mentioned before about sort of manifesting things. And that's, you know, singing in the mirror with the hairbrush is is all about that. And it's, you know, and it's why it's sort of why young people do it and why it kind of sometimes comes to pass that they do then get to live those dreams and push those things. But if you don't have that initial spark and you don't have that initial sort of self-belief, then it then it you know, it's like the old adage.

27:43it just can't happen. It can't happen without real kind of real passion behind it. And it's not something that you can tell yourself to want. You know, I think it's just it's just there. Yeah, I mean, obviously, with a career as long as yours, there are, of course, moments of self doubt. And one that I was reading about very recently was, and I think it was the last time I actually saw you was on the red carpet of the BAFTAs where you won a BAFTA for 12 years slave, but you were in this huge furore about the film. You know, everyone was talking about it. You were nominated for an Academy Award.

28:17Steve McQueen had been extremely public in saying, you know, Chiwetel is the only man for the job. There was never going to be anyone else play this part. And you, as an actor, obviously wait for scripts like this to turn up. It's the pinnacle, you know, you want that to happen. And then you get the script and you're like, holy shit, am I capable of this? And that was a moment of self-doubt. Totally, yeah. I mean, how do you ride that out? because you've got to do a film like that. You've got to be committed in every way to, I can play this part. I'm telling someone's story. I've got to do it justice.

28:48Yeah. I think it was, yeah, I think that first time that I read 12 Years a Slave, I was in tears by the end of just reading it. You know, I was just sort of very emotional by the story. And yeah, I just thought, this is such a huge responsibility. This is such a kind of leap, you know, in terms of what I have to kind of represent and what I have to do and where I have to go. And I just didn't know if it was, that I was the person, you know, that I could do it essentially. And, you know, and I said that to Steve, you know. And so, and it was almost that that was that, you know, that it wasn't gonna happen.

29:28Oh, it went that far. Yeah, yeah, it was, there was a kind of, and then I spoke to some other people, you know, agents, because you're trying to then, you have to have these further conversations, right? And they were just like horrified. You've got to... You're doing it. Yeah, you know, you've got to, you know, if you need to give yourself a good talking to, then you're just going to have to give yourself a good talking to because this is an extraordinary opportunity. And if you can't walk away from something because you love it so much, you know, it's like you have to sort of dive into that moment.

29:59You have to kind of lean into that moment. And, you know, I was just very lucky that I was able to kind of, I had another read of the book and the script. And I think it was just through the process of re-going over everything, because I was pretty determined. It wasn't a whim, you know. But it was in the process of going back over everything that something clicked for me. And I thought, you know, I do actually have a way into this as myself, you know, just as a way into to this character, or way into Solomon's journey, that I think is the right way into it. And I feel like that's the kind of feeling you have to have.

30:40You have to feel that the part is in you somehow, that it's just, that it's really in you. And once I discovered that, I think, then I was like, okay, I can, I think I can try and do this. Oh, well you did more than try. It was just an unbelievable performance, just unbelievable. this is hannah burner from giggly squad opil is the first over-the-counter daily birth control pill available in the u.s let's be real getting a birth control prescription is not always easy and it's so much admin in fact about a third of women face barriers to access prescription birth control between scheduling appointments missing work class or just trying to exist it's a lot but now opil is putting birth control in our control opil is a daily birth control that's FDA approved, full prescription strength and estrogen free and 98 % effective when used as directed.

31:37Grab it online or at most major retailers, no prescription or doctor's appointment needed. So if you're thinking about birth control, check out Opill to see if it's right for you. Use code Giggly for 25 % off your first month of Opill at O-P-I-L-L dot com. That's code Giggly at O-P-I-L-L dot com. Birth control in your control. We love to see it. The market's uncertain. Revenue's tied and hiring on hold. That's why results-driven companies are using Upwork to keep work moving. Go to Upwork.com today and start hiring proven freelance talent fast. No bulky overhead. No rigid long-term contracts. Just the right expert right when you need them.

32:16Work smarter and faster with Upwork. Go to Upwork.com now and find your freelance expert. That's U-P-W-O-R-K.com. Post a job for free and get started today. Hi, this is Knox from the Popcast with Knox and Jamie. And maybe like us at the Popcast, you also know people who have been smokers or vapors. And Zen is the one product it seems like everyone is talking about. Because there are many good reasons to make a change to Zen nicotine pouches. Reasons like Zen nicotine pouches are still America's number one choice for smoke-free, hands-free nicotine satisfaction. And you can choose between 10 varieties, each variety available in either 3 or 6 milligrams.

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33:34I mean, obviously, you've connected with a whole array of characters over the years. You've had such a diverse career on screen and in the theatre, and your first leading stage role was playing Othello. and we've had some other Shakespearean actors on here and I'm always completely fascinated why Shakespeare, why you're drawn to Shakespeare because it's complicated and there's no margin for error. Everybody knows it. You've got to nail the story. Everyone's got an opinion about how that character should be portrayed. We had David Tennant on recently. We've had Dame Harriet Walter talking about this too.

34:09What was it at such a young age? Because you were 19 when you played a fellow for the first time. Yeah, for the first time I'm 19 for the National Youth. But obviously your interest in Shakespeare started before that. Theatre really grabbed you. What was it about theatre, but more specifically Shakespeare, that really spoke to you? Yeah, I think it was just that I understood, I heard it, you know, and that's, it's sort of hard to describe. And I've tried to describe it before, but it's always complicated. You know, it was Henry IV Part I and a sort of wet Wednesday. You know, you're staring, you're half staring out the window and we're doing Henry IV Part I at school.

34:46And something about Hal's speech, you know, struck me. And I can't, it was sort of that there was something about what he was describing. It's a moment when Hal is talking about, you know, his future and what he's going to be and how he sort of feels that he's sort of wasting him, is wasting his life in this moment. But he has a plan for himself or the world has a plan for him somehow. And he is going to, at some point, rise up to this moment. And I feel like I was 13, I'm in school, I'm kind of hearing these words. And they suddenly, and you know, exactly as you say, they felt sort of Shakespearean and alien.

35:25But then suddenly they just sort of had a kind of clarity. And I was like, I feel like this. I feel like I'm inside the experience that Shakespeare is writing about. as a 13-year-old boy who does not know what is going on, really, you know, and just is having these experiences, doesn't know what it's supposed to add up to, where I'm supposed to be, what I'm supposed to be thinking, what I'm going to do, why I'm doing anything, you know. And suddenly Hal is talking about this in a way, you know, from 400 years ago or something, in a way that I understand. I went around school that week like I had discovered Shakespeare.

36:01I was like, you've got to listen to this guy. He's really, he's really interesting. There's this new guy on the street. There's this new guy. He's called William... William Shakespeare. Something like that. He's brilliant, you know. And people are like, yeah, he's sort of well-known. We've heard of him. But how funny. I mean, I think it's quite rare that that happens. And even now, you know, I saw Macbeth recently at the theatre. And I'm really, I am concentrating. Like, my eyes are like this. I'm ears open, listening to everyone. I'm trying to keep up with it. Am I clever enough? And I think at 13, that takes a special kind of brain to go, this really makes sense to me.

36:39You know, that's extraordinary. Yeah, I didn't know what that it was funny because then I went down to the theater to start to audition, you know. And and I thought maybe it was just that piece of Henry IV, you know, that had had that impact on me. And so it didn't I felt like, well, maybe that's not something that really it's not a general thing or something. and maybe it's just a transient interest. So I went down to the theatre anyway, and it was a beautiful theatre at my school, Dulwich College, and I'd never really been inside. And they were doing some auditions for Measure for Measure. And so I did the audition, and again, with one of Angelo's speeches, as I started to do it, I had the same sort of feeling.

37:24I just really connected to what he was saying and the experiences that he was going through and the way the language was being utilized. And it felt like I had access to it, to this language, in a surprising way, in a way that seemed, I mean, easy. It seemed easy. It seemed like a way of speaking and expressing self that I got, like singing a familiar song or something, you know that was um that that just it just sort of happened and um and you know and it was under in a sense it was sort of undeniable that is that other people there felt the same thing they felt like oh you've really got an access to this that it that seems surprising you know just that it seems very that it sort of comes to you very easily and um and it it was just because i sort of understood emotionally somehow just what it was trying to what it was communicating and and I loved what it was communicating you know and I loved how it was communicating it and so I just really became for that period you know totally obsessed with um with Shakespeare I was just like it just I felt like I I had sort of this connection to this to this writer that um obviously was very famous and, you know, everybody knows and, you know, but it still felt like this sort of unique kind of, you know, so I just sort of started devouring all of, you know, all of Shakespeare's plays.

38:58I'd write quotes and Shakespearean quotes on my wall. I was, you know, 15 or whatever. And I'd be doing like my whole walls covered in different quotes from different plays. And I'm sitting, my sister would say that I would be up there just sort of randomly doing different plays that I wouldn't be performing. you know I wouldn't be about to perform on stage but I would just be going through all of the plays you know and all of the different characters and I just felt this really kind of yeah and so then I went to the National Youth Theatre and just carried on that that particular journey and then also started to expand it out into into not just classical texts but into all you know different all sorts of different pieces and different theatre and I was just it and even that still Just there was something in the language of when it really works that I just sort of felt like I'm really inside of this somehow.

39:47It feels like the only way that I could really understand how to just self-expression, which is a strange thing to say, but it was through other people's work in that way in theatre that I could actually talk about myself in any way and find those ways of talking about my own feelings. It's a magical connection, I think, to find that, especially as a teenager when we're desperate to express ourselves and tell the world who we are or try and figure it out ourselves. I'm definitely still trying to do that, but it's magical to have that clarity at that age. But then there's the performance side, especially when you're performing Shakespeare on stage.

40:29Were there nerves at that point or do you get stage fright even today? And how would you mitigate that? Yeah, I wasn't, I don't remember being that nervous then, you know, I just remember being so excited, you know, and being just being so excited about having an opportunity to translate this feeling that I was having and actually take it out onto a stage and to, and to perform, you know, and when it would work, it was amazing, you know, and there was, you know, you could just that the feeling of communication, you know, with an audience. and sort of telling a story. And there was just this real sense of feeling that I was in the right place, that this was something that I was doing something that I really felt like, this is what I should be doing right now.

41:22And in a time when, and at an age when you can be really unsure about what you're doing and why you're doing it, suddenly a lot of those questions were sort of answered in those moments when I was either rehearsing or performing. And nerves, and again, it's one of those things that nerves and sort of being, you know, being worried about things, all of that did arrive. You know, it did happen, you know, a bit later on. But in those very early sort of teenage years, it was all kind of, it was all sort of excitement of performance. It's so annoying that the older you get, the more you worry. I hate that one.

42:00I was the same. I used to do live TV at 15. I just felt like nothing, zero, like just fun, excitement. Now, don't put me anywhere near a live TV camera. It's too risky. It's like theatre. You're so exposed if something goes wrong. There's no way of covering your tracks. People have seen you mess up, say the wrong thing, forget your line, whatever. It's such risky business. Would you say you are a worrier now? Much more so. Yeah, I mean, I am. I am it's something that as soon as it began to happen with any frequency sort of nerves and intensity of nerves it's now something that I was able to kind of analyze you know so that I could try and sort of get on top of a little bit you know just to kind of break down like what's actually happening like why do I feel this way what is this anxiety really fueled by you know because I you know I have as much passion and love for the thing I'm not as worried about how people kind of receive certain things, especially if I feel within it that the work is strong.

43:02So what is it really that's creating some of the kind of neurosis around it, you know? And then I suppose understanding a little bit of that, which is, as you get older, sometimes nothing to do with performance itself. It's really about all of the other aspects of your life and all of the other ways in which you feel that you either have or haven't let yourself or other people down, you know, and how that's re-manifest and it's always the stories we tell ourselves about ourselves you know and that fear that you know you're going to prove some aspect of your personality by failing at something that you knew was present in some other aspect of your personality that you want to sort of punish yourself for and there's there's all of that that comes with just getting older I think and just having and not being you know perfect and having to figure out certain things and making mistakes or stepping on toes or, you know, just having all of those situations and circumstances that goes into being a person.

44:00Yeah. And being an imperfect person. And so then you can bring a lot of that stuff into a sort of punitive sense of, you know, your own neurosis. And of course, I think a lot of that is natural, ultimately, you know, and you can't kind of go back to the sort of pure essence of being a teenager. Such a shame. I mean, it is. But also... With a wise head. Exactly. You carry with you all of the other things of life and all of the other incredible experiences, amazing experiences that you have. And so that's the sort of balance. But what I try and do now is separate all of those things. It's just try to understand what is interrupting something when it's happening.

44:47and if I can clear that out a little bit then I do find that I can have a tiny bit of that sort of artistic clarity which does ultimately produce the best work. Yeah, without a doubt. Yeah. We've all got to learn our own bespoke way of just mitigating that voice that's in our head that's creating the worries and the narratives and driving the anxiety. It's, you know, I think the better we get at that the easier everything certainly becomes. I would love to end by asking you Chiwetel where is your happy place either actually or figuratively where is my happy place I think you know it's sort of I guess it's a cliche naturally but you know to be around the people that you love you know is very very very comforting and you know that sense of home I spend a lot of time in you know traveling, you know, just as I was saying for the first kind of few, you know, for a long time, a couple of decades of my working life, you know, was sort of a lot of movement, a lot of traveling.

45:57And I felt as I would, you know, open another suitcase somewhere, or even if I was trying to spend a few months or six months or eight months, 10 months, I would always feel a little bit like I was on a holiday from my life, that my real life was happening somewhere else. My real life was actually happening in London, you know, and I was kind of having experiences that were just sort of not really part of my real life that I was, you know, and it always made me feel slightly just sort of dislocated and sort of uncomfortable in a way. And having done that for so long, now I feel like I'm in my life, you know, which is a sort of strange thing to say, but it's a true feeling I feel like I'm actually honestly experiencing my life and in real time and and that makes me happy well that is a bloody lovely answer and it's been so great to talk to you today good luck with all the other press that you've got to do and no doubt traveling thank you so much pleasure thank you oh Chiwetel what a bloody lovely man I just loved every second of that chat and Chiwetel's a sort of actor where you know he's had such an incredible career I could have allowed myself to get quite overwhelmed and intimidated by his presence, but he was so delightful from the minute he walked in, saying hello to the whole Happy Place team, making himself at home in our little makeshift studio, and just being a delight.

47:21I loved, loved, loved that conversation. Bridget Jones, Mad About The Boy, is out in UK cinemas right now. Now, next week on the show, a conversation I've been teasing a lot in passing over the last few weeks because I quite frankly cannot stop thinking about it. It's going to make you rethink everything you think you know about your body image. Oh, this is a good chat. Do you follow us on Instagram, PS? It's at happyplaceofficial. That is the place where you can find out ahead of time who is coming on the show and what they might be talking about. Right, lovelies, until next week, a massive thanks again to Chiwetel, to the producer, Anushka Tate at Happy Place Studios, and to you, because you're the bloody best.

48:15so

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