Crystal Hefner: Objectification, control, and Playboy

0:00Hello, I'm Fern Cotton and this is Happy Place, the show that gives voice to silenced parts of ourselves. Today, I'm chatting to Crystal Hefner. When I first moved in, I was told there was like a restaurant-style kitchen. I could order whatever I wanted. So I thought, wow, let's test that out. And I got fatter. I remember Hef like kind of tapping my thigh and said, he said, it looks like someone needs to tone up. So instead of just lashing back at him at that time, I thought, oh, I can do better. Oh, no, I'm slipping. I need to be the best. So that's when it started unraveling, when my physical appearance started getting controlled because more stuff, more things started happening physically that he controlled.

0:43Crystal is a world renowned model, advocate and entrepreneur. She was 21 when she went to a party at the Playboy Mansion. Hugh Hefner picked her out of the crowd and her life changed forever. Soon she was one of his infamous girlfriends. She traveled the world. She went to all the glamorous parties. But as she's now revealed in her book, Only Say Good Things, there was a dark side to this gorgeously alluring lifestyle. Hef governed the lives of his girlfriends with strict rules on everything from how they looked to how they spent their free time. Crystal was made to compete with other women for a spot in the highly hierarchical system, something she did very well.

1:24She rose to the top and married Hef in 2012. She became Crystal Hefner, but the mansion became her prison. Reading this book, I mean, I couldn't put it down. There were bits that were sort of horrifying to read and moments where my jaw was on the floor. But you really can't stop turning the pages. Before Hef died in 2017, he made Crystal promise to only say good things about the time she spent in his world. Now, after all those years of silence, she's ready to expose the misogyny at Playboy's core and the really devastating effect it had on her health.

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2:57And you can choose between 10 varieties, each variety available in either three or six milligrams. Check out zen.com slash find to find Zen at a store near you. Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical. At Capella University, we believe accessible education can make a difference in people's lives. That's why we offer scholarship opportunities to all eligible students. Whether you're considering a bachelor's, master's, or doctoral degree, our teams will walk you through the process and help you get the savings you are eligible for. Furthering your education is an investment in yourself.

3:32Entonces, ¿qué estás esperando? Un futuro diferente está más cerca de lo que crees con Capella University. Learn more at capella.edu.

3:46Right, this is it. Here's the show.

4:09Can the rest of the people hear us too? They can all hear us. Okay. I bet he has. Every word. Crystal, welcome to Happy Place. It's so lovely to have you here. Thanks for having me. And also, welcome home. Because I hadn't realized until reading your book that both your parents were British and you spent quite a lot of your childhood here as well. Yeah, yeah. I spent the first eight years of my childhood here. And you grew up in a pub over here. Yes. The old Rose and Crown. Yes, I did. Yeah. Yeah. People in America don't really understand that, you know, the house is like above the pub. Yes. Like, oh, you lived in a bar.

4:45Yeah. Technically, yes. Yeah. What does it feel like to go into pubs when you're in the UK now? Do you get that sort of hit of nostalgia and smelling the smells and hearing the sounds? Yeah, I love it. I love it. I love all that stuff. Does it feel bittersweet because obviously your British dad was a musician here and in the States and he died, which seemed to have a huge impact on you growing up. Does it feel bittersweet coming back here? Yeah, it's nice. Even the flight attendant on the plane, he had a British accent and he was kind of older. I'm like, oh, this feels like home. So it was very nice.

5:25It's nice to be back. It was really interesting reading about your parents and their dreams and aspirations, because they moved to California before you were born. And then again, after a stint here, you went back to California as a kid and they and you were very aware of this dream they had to make it to have their name in lights, to live the American dream. that seemed to have a sort of a lasting effect on you. How did that impact you, you think, sort of knowing about their dreams and what their aspirations were? Yeah, I think subconsciously their dream became my dream and I think that's part of why I ended up at the Playboy Mansion because it was glitz and glamour in Hollywood and a beautiful place and at that time Playboy was huge and powerful and so being there you're like, wow, I've made it.

6:13Yeah. So let's rewind to you, age 21. I was about to say you got invited to a party at the Playboy Mansion, but there's actually a bit of a process to get accepted to a party. So tell us how you ended up at the Halloween party when you were 21. one. So in order to go to a party, you have to submit a photo and get approved that way. So I submitted a photo. I didn't think I'd be approved. I was very insecure at the time and I got approved. So I was surprised and I went up to the mansion with a friend who also got approved. So you're at this party and you're eyes wide just looking at the whole situation.

6:55It's as bold and bright and brilliant as you'd imagined and you can see Hugh Hefner sat behind some ropes he spots you calls you over and you are that evening the chosen one how did that evening feel that moment playing out oh my goodness so my friend is very extroverted so she dragged me over to the ropes where Hef was in his cabana and she started waving and he looks over at her waving and then his gaze kind of fell on me. I remember like kind of looking behind me like me and yeah he's like come here and whatever Hef wants Hef gets. So his security immediately started you know trying to move everybody out of the way so they could get me in the cabana with him and yeah and I was on the other side of the ropes all of a sudden and in with Hef and my soul probably left my body.

7:51It was a weird out of body experience for sure. And it's so funny because often, you know, growing up, we've all seen whether it's paparazzi pictures or in films, someone behind a red rope and it looks so exclusive and so special. But reading your book, it seemed like that first, well, the first weekend you spent at the mansion actually felt like that. It wasn't kind of, there was no facade at first. It felt like you were in this sort of magical world, magical experience. Yeah, it felt like Charlie and the Chocolate Factory and he was Willy Wonka. You walk around and there's carved wood everywhere and there's a gym and tanning beds and a game house, tennis courts.

8:32You walk around, you're like, wow, this place is beautiful. And you just feel that you're part of something powerful and incredible. You say in the book that it felt like you'd been yanked out of your drab little life to something much more exciting. When did that start to fade, that feeling? When I first moved in, I was told there was like a restaurant style kitchen. There were chefs, like three or four chefs at a time, and I could order whatever I wanted. So I thought, wow, let's test that out. And so I would order French fries and grilled cheese and all the American stuff that's not the best for you.

9:12And I got fatter. I weighed 134 pounds, which is nowhere near fat. But I remember Hef like kind of tapping my thigh and said, he said, it looks like someone needs to tone up. So at that time, instead of just lashing back at him at that time, I thought, oh, I can do better. Oh, no, I'm slipping. I need to be the best. So I hit the gym and lost a bunch of weight back down to 115. And yeah, that's when it started unraveling, when my physical appearance started getting controlled because more things started happening physically that he controlled. It seemed like the psychology around that time, well, throughout your whole stint, 10 years at the Playboy Mansion, that that was really played on, the insecurity pitting you against other women.

10:07And as you alluded to a moment ago, you went into this experience with low self-esteem already. So what did that do for your confidence being sort of picked apart for what you look like or pitted against other women? I think it was very hard. I thought Playboy was a place of freedom and expression and empowerment. And I felt the complete opposite. It was like be seen but not heard. Just be Hef's shadow, be his mirror reflecting his self-importance back at him. And so I just try to do the best I can at that. Even when you had moments of going, actually, I don't want to do that. I don't agree with either how he's conducting things or what he's asking of me.

10:56What stopped you from speaking out or saying, actually, I don't want to do that? I think my intuition was trying to tell me that there's the problem, but I just shoved it down and pushed the voice down. And this was also at a time that was pre-MeToo and before we knew what a lot of the terms are that we have now. Like now we talk about mental health a lot more. We talk about narcissism. We talk about misogyny. And I don't know, we just didn't really have that back then. So when you were going through moments of extreme anxiety, being borderline sort of panic attack at moments, feeling like you needed to get out of there, what do you think it was that stopped you from making that decision to leave?

11:41I'm not sure. Part of me felt sorry for Huff and felt that I needed to be there for him, which is, I don't know, maybe a form of Stockholm Syndrome or something. I've talked to a couple of girls that were actually in cults and we had a lot in common. Wow, I bet. So maybe it was something to do with that and Hef being all powerful and an extreme power imbalance. I mean, would you call it brainwashing? Yeah, because everyone went along with it. He had 70 staff that were all yes, yes people to him and the media loved him and praised him. and he would go out with his seven girlfriends at one point and the media would just eat it up.

12:17It's like, why did they do that? I don't know. We've never asked them. And you had a fear of going back to, well, you weren't sure what at points. You didn't want to leave the lifestyle or the excitement of it? Yeah, yeah. I think something aside me just said, okay, this is my life now. I'm like, it's not exactly what I thought it would be, but this is my life. And yeah, this is, I guess, what's in the cards for me. That's what I thought. There seems to be like a certain pivotal point where you started to see your role as a job. The whole thing felt like a job. And there were actually payouts where he would give you sort of an allowance almost.

12:59Did that help you navigate the trickier situations that you didn't necessarily want to find yourself in in the mansion? Yeah, yeah. So he gave us the allowance when I was first there. There were a couple other girls that lived there, twins. And it was enough money to get by, buy the things we needed to, but not enough to save properly. Because he didn't want us to leave. So it was never enough where we could leave. So I remember starting to get into trying to make my own money while I was there. I'm like, okay, some attention is on me, even if it's by association. I'm going to use it to my advantage.

13:34And I started making money there. I started making money on social media. And I learned how to DJ. And so I, I recognize at least the financial abuse and thought, okay, if I can save my own money, then I'll never have to deal with this situation again. Yeah. How do you feel looking back over, you know, it's a long period of time, 10 years for you to have gone through, you know, there's some times in there where you seem to be pretty happy and going to some parties and enjoying parts of it. But there's a lot of the time where you really were very uncomfortable and not enjoying being there. Looking back now, your self-esteem seems in good shape, lots of healthier self-confidence.

14:15How do you feel about 21-year-old Crystal going into that situation? I feel sorry for her. And that's one of the reasons I wrote the book. I wish I had this book when I was 21. And I'm having 21-year-old girls actually write me and say thank you. So I really appreciate that. Do you have regret about going into the mansion? No, I don't have regret. I think that my story is a good story. So I don't regret anything. Yeah. So looking back, so I know there's obviously a part in the book right at the end, we were going through a storage unit with loads of Hef stuff in it, all this memorabilia and scrapbooking that he had.

14:55And you came across photos of that night where you're at the Halloween party, that pivotal moment where you're summoned and you move into the mansion essentially. what do you think looking back at pictures of that night when you see yourself about to walk into well you had no idea at that point yeah I remember going through the scrapbooks and seeing those photos and I just felt sorry for the girl that I was and yeah I just felt really bad and I do remember that same day looking through other scrapbooks and seeing letters from young girls as young as 11 years old, like writing in saying, oh, I have a new Playboy bedspread and I want to be a playmate or what does it take to get in the mansion?

15:38And it's at the very end of my book, I talk about it and I can't read it back without crying because it's very sad. How do you feel about that, about young girls, you know, believing in the Playboy dream? Well, you have to, to be a part of it, you have to lose yourself completely. and it's sad and I have always told the media this quote that's like life's too short to be living someone else's dream and that's what I was doing so it's strange sitting next to him while he's telling someone that. You were living very much his life one of the things that I think I underestimated before reading the book was how mechanical the whole situation was Every day was extremely regimented in terms of what you all did, how you all did it, how the day went, how the sex went, how the parties went.

16:32Everything was exactly the same every week. How did you find that regimented lifestyle? It was like a strange cruise ship itinerary. And I think Hef is such a creature of habit and so controlling that I think that's why he controlled every aspect of other people's lives and his own life. I mean, you learned pretty quick that he didn't necessarily have any interest in any of you in terms of your backstory, what you liked, what you wanted to do. It was very much all about him and talking about his legacy. Did you actually like him? Hmm. Maybe like. I found him interesting. But thinking back, like, oh, he was just a narcissist completely, like the definition.

17:28But when I tried to make things work or be happy there, I would ask him so many questions about his life. And I thought we were connecting, but we weren't. As long as we're talking about him, then everything was fine. But as soon as the conversation shifted to anything else, he just shut off or walked away. So it's sad. There was also this very formatted hierarchy within the mansion where you had sort of bedrooms. And if you were like girlfriend number five, you're slightly further down the corridor and you'd get moved up. And I guess due to being in there so long and also being under strict curfew.

18:07I mean, you weren't allowed out past, what was it, 6 p.m.? 6. 6 p.m. Six most nights. Mondays and Wednesdays were a little bit later. So you are essentially sort of imprisoned in this mansion. And then there's the brainwashing that goes along with it. And then I'm imagining you start to believe the systems that you're living within. You've got these formatted sections of the house and you're moving up like in a game show to become like girlfriend number one. And I mean, you went to the next level of becoming his wife. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I think it is because the media, because all the people that work for him, because everybody, all the celebrities, they idolize him.

18:45And like, OK, this is no matter what this voice was telling me, I'm like, oh, this is this is a place where everyone wants to be. This is this is good. This is I don't know. I guess I was trying to convince myself, but I did move into bedroom five initially and thought to myself, OK, whoever's closest to Hef is the most important. And maybe, you know, he won't kick me out or something. So, like, what do I need to do? Okay, like all the same things he likes. So I'll make sure I stuck through all those old movies with him and try to get into it. And he liked that. And I ended up in spot number one, which is in the bedroom with Hef, which is no privacy at all.

19:29I had, like, a small part of his closet that I could call my own. It was terrible. Yeah. Yeah, it definitely wasn't a marital bedroom. It was his room and then you had a tiny little vanity section. Yes. So even the proposal for the marriage seemed unusual. Yeah, he just handed me a ring and said, I hope it fits. Maybe he was afraid to ask me in case I said no. I'm not sure. If he had, what would you have said if it had been a question rather than a statement? I think I would have said yes. Otherwise, it's like, okay, this is my life. If I say no, I move out tomorrow. And there were cameras in my face, video, and still a bunch of people in the room.

20:16So I'm like, yes. And I have pictures in the book of holding up the ring and I'm crying and I look traumatized. What's happening? But you were like mentally trapped at this point. I guess it didn't feel like there was a way out. Yeah, it didn't feel like there was a way up. When you were really struggling with the turmoil that you're feeling within, you know, knowing that that's not what you wanted for yourself, but you find yourself nodding and going along with it, who did you turn to? Who can you talk to in moments like that? No one there, that's for sure. Maybe myself internally. And I would do little things like when I was looking through wedding dresses, I picked a pink one.

20:57And I thought, OK, I'm going to wear a pink dress because when I get married for real one day, I'll wear a white one. And so having those thoughts and talking myself through it in that way, I mean, that's how you know that I wasn't into it. So before you even ended up walking into the mansion for the first time, you go really into your backstory, which I thought was really important because, I mean, there are millions of women out there. I count myself in this who have been in places of having extreme lack of self-worth or just losing your confidence for whatever reason. And there usually is a reason.

21:34I don't think we show up on the planet with a lack of confidence. You have to go through a certain amount of experience to lose it. And you went through several things. Perhaps, would you say, the start of that was your dad dying? Yeah, after my dad passed away, I didn't feel like a real family anymore. Just like the leftover scraps of one. And then we also had no money after my dad passed away. We lived in one bedroom in another family's home. And when you don't have any money and other people do, you're just like, oh, they're better than me. And so you start feeling small. and my mom remarried to an awful man but she needed to get married to get her green card and so she and she kind of liked him I think but he had a daughter and he treated his daughter a lot better than he treated me and so you learn to be small and just people please and then maybe you'll be accepted or be able to belong and that's hard and I think that was part of the allure of the mansion, I'm like, wow, maybe this is a place where I could finally belong.

22:42And sometimes just feeling that you belong somewhere is more powerful than love. Yeah, you definitely say in the book, you know, you were desperately seeking that level of acceptance. Do you think you ever felt accepted in the mansion? No. Toward the end, because he needed me more and he was a lot older, I'd like to think he learned some type of lesson. You know, I eventually stopped bleaching my hair and had my implants removed and he respected me then. It seemed a little bit more. So maybe he learned some lesson before he passed, but I don't know.

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24:04Reasons like Zen nicotine pouches are still America's number one choice for smoke-free, hands-free nicotine satisfaction. And you can choose between 10 varieties, each variety available in either 3 or 6 milligrams. Check out zen.com slash find to find Zen at a store near you. Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical. At Capella University, we believe accessible education can make a difference. That's why we offer scholarship opportunities to all eligible students. Un futuro diferente está más cerca de lo que crees con Capella University. Learn more at capella.edu.

24:44So going back, after your dad died, you then met Greg, who was your boyfriend as a teenager, who seemed to be like a beautiful ray of sunshine in your life at that point. What did it feel like meeting him and why was that relationship so important? Oh my gosh, meeting him was like a breath of fresh air. He smiled and you could see every one of his teeth because his smile was so big and he was very happy and it was great. You'd always be like, let's go and it'd be a fun adventure. I just loved being around him. There was nothing negative or hurtful. I just cared about people. And that was all through high school.

25:24He was my best friend. Then you got pregnant and had an abortion at this point. And that, again, seemed to be, you know, obviously it's a very traumatic thing to go through, but a real unraveling for you at that point in your life where you really questioned a hell of a lot of what was going on around you and your own questioning your own thoughts even at that point. Yeah, yeah. I remember thinking I'm a terrible person and his parents weren't the most fond of the relationship. And I'm like, oh, no wonder I'm terrible. I make terrible decisions. And I think it just kept getting reinforced in me that, you know, I have no value and I mess everything up, I guess.

26:08and then the most awful thing happened Greg died in Afghanistan and you say in the book that felt like some sort of karmic punishment also what was going through your head at that time for you to think that we had broken up and I was dating like bad people and I just I don't know I just I guess I feel I don't I just and I lost my dad and then when Greg passed away I'm just like I mean I don't know life is not good to me and I don't must have been something I've done because this isn't fair I think it happens so often that we we feel like it's punishment we turn on ourselves and we um we assume we must have done something awful to experience any form of bad luck or tragedy or whatever's going on do you still think like that today or can you look back on life and see the string of events can be you know you know bad luck or potluck or whatever it might be fate yeah I think I used to be very hard on myself I've gotten better because as I wrote the book I'm like I can't believe I I let that happen I can't believe and my friends have told me like give yourself grace So I'm working on that.

27:31Yeah, it's a tough one. How did you start to build your self-esteem back up? Because I assume that it wasn't post-mansion life. Maybe whilst you were still living in the mansion, you realised that you needed to build up your own confidence and get to a better place. When do you think that started to kick in? It started kicking in when I started making money of my own. when I went on social media and started making money from social media. Instagram came out in 2014 and it got huge. And the DJ gigs, I started getting into like cryptocurrencies and different things like that. And I started making money.

28:11I had a swimwear line, loungewear line, like, okay, I'm just going to do what I can. And I started making money, enough money to buy a house in LA. I opened up a corporation where I couldn't be traced back to my name. I didn't tell Hef, I didn't tell anybody and I bought my first house and that felt powerful because it's like okay if this all falls apart I have somewhere to live I don't have to worry about about that and yeah like I mentioned earlier financial abuse is is horrible and I know a few women that are stuck in relationships because they can't leave they have children and they control them the person controls the other person controls all the money and it's hard and I'm just like save save save do what you can.

28:54I would see women come through the Playboy Mansion that had just bought a new Range Rover or the Louboutin red-bottom shoes. I'm like, no, no, no, buy a condo, buy an apartment, buy anything instead. But yeah, saving money and having that helped. And yeah, I remember having enough money to just be gone, but I didn't leave him. I stayed. And I remember telling my mom, him. I said, I can't leave him. He needs me. And I stayed until the end. Yeah. And then when Hef died, that brought up a whole complex grief for you to navigate. And from reading the book, it seemed you were not only grieving this life that you'd led for 10 years, which, you know, is obviously undulating in terms of your enjoyment of that period, but also So your dad dying, Greg dying, it all kind of hit you at that point.

29:54Yeah, I remember when Hef was dying, I kept thinking to myself, I don't know if I can handle this. I don't know if I can handle another death at all. And, you know, you have no choice. It's happening. And I remember right when Hef passed, I said, I don't even I don't even know what day it was at that point. I'm like, I don't want to know what day it is or what time or anything. And I couldn't leave the house for maybe like six weeks. I slept in another bedroom. I couldn't be in the main bedroom. And, yeah, just reflecting. I don't know. Part of me felt guilty. I don't know why. And I just couldn't leave the house for a long time.

30:32Yeah. Well, I guess there perhaps was a period of suspension of you not looking at the grief of Greg dying. And then all of a sudden you've got to face all of it in one go. It's overwhelming. Yeah. Yeah. Death is hard. It's very hard. When you were going through feelings of low self-esteem, a lack of confidence, as I said, many of us have been there. And that can often be teamed with self-loathing or just plain not liking yourself very much. Would you say that's true of how you felt? Yeah, that's definitely how I felt. And I wasn't sure how to turn that around. How did you? Well, I remember trying to date shortly after the mansion and I spoke to a matchmaker and they said, oh, well, we're going to fill out your profile.

31:23Like, what do you like so we can put it in the profile? And I froze. I'm like, what do I like? I don't even know. It sounds weird, but I didn't even know what I like. I spent all my life liking what somebody else liked or pretty much all my life. And so I had to take a pause. And from there, like, what do I like? I was had been traveling. I'm like, I love travel. Yeah, I've been in nature. I love nature. I love my dog. So as I discovered what I liked, I started finding myself. and just that just those small steps like really really lead to the bigger things and and and I thought oh I you know I love Disneyland it's fun to go there I love Mickey Mouse I'm like oh okay I'm gonna get myself a sweatshirt that has Mickey Mouse on it it's so simple and silly but you're like okay like what do I like and how do I show it to the world and I started becoming myself and I started becoming more confident and having saved money helped me And yeah, it's been a journey.

32:29It's been a seven year journey now. Would you say initially it felt difficult to believe that you deserved to do what you wanted to do and have choice and autonomy over your own likes and how you wanted life to go? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. There was there's always been a part of me that feels like, oh, I can't enjoy it too much or else something bad's going to happen. I don't know where that comes from. I know other people have it, but I've just tried to enjoy things more, practice gratitude instead of, you know, oh, I had a terrible day. Like, was it a bad day or just a bad few minutes? So just think about the good things and be grateful.

33:08And I think that's helped. Yeah. And I guess get out of that mindset. And I've certainly been there as well, where you believe that if anything remotely awful happens, that it's completely awful. You must have done something along the way to trigger that bad event happening. It's very hard to unpick that one. Do you think you've managed it? Yeah. Yeah. I think I got into the mindset of the universe has my back. Yeah. So just trust that and hopefully all will be good. Often in these situations when you read a story like your own or there's women in the press who have either dated an older man or whatever situation set up it is, the female is much more harshly judged than the male involved.

33:52Some would use the word victim for the person in your situation is judged much more harshly than the person who's got the power, the control, the finances, etc. How have you found that? I think that's very, very true. And I don't know why that is. It's like, are people afraid of them? I don't know. You know, people idolized Heft and treated him just incredibly well. And they shouldn't have. But I think people are learning now. And hopefully things are changing. But he was definitely idolized for and propped up for all the wrong reasons. Because he had money and power. Yeah. And how have you dealt with the judgment and any critique that you've had thrown your way?

34:42You know, obviously, social media is a minefield and horrendous for most people in terms of if there's backlash or if there's negativity. It could be a lovely place of connection as well, but it can obviously dish up just unsolicited thoughts, opinions. how how do you swim through that when I put the book out I had no idea how it would be received I hoped it would be received well and because not only did I want to talk about the mansion and tell the truth I wanted to dive into the psychology behind everything and I was hoping it would be received well and it was it was received very well and I got so many positive messages and I do remember one of my friends sending me some random things from like a reddit thing or a girls next door group or something.

35:32It was a few negative things. And I just told her, I'm like, I'm going to follow the light. I'm going to follow these 99.9 % people that are getting something out of this book and who are saying things that are positive. And I think if you dwell on negative, it just breeds more negative. And I used to do that when I was at the mansion and on the girls next door show, I'd read the bad comments and now I'll just delete them or turn the comments off and just follow the light because if you spend your life dwelling on the positive or negative you could go either way so why not just just go it's all irrelevant at the end of the day focusing on you know just go with what feels right to you I mean the book um is called only say good things for good reason you were very much explicitly told by Hugh Hefner not to say anything negative about him or your experience of being part of the Playboy brand and living in the mansion.

36:29When did you start feeling like you might contradict that? I think once I left and started going to therapy and the people that I was dating were similar. They were controlling, they were manipulative, except now they were struggling actors and musicians and so I'm being treated this way and I'm paying the bills. So I cannot keep being in this trap. And so I'm like, oh, that something there has really affected me and I need to talk about it. And as we go through, you know, people talking about mental health more, and I learned a lot more about narcissism and like, wow, I really need to talk about this and have controlled the narrative for so long, like 70 years.

37:19And he meticulously like put 3 ,000 scrapbooks together of his life that he thought people would want to look at for generations and generations. And it's like, okay, I need to tell the other side of it because it wasn't what Hef said at all. And just be honest to the world and people that were following us. I think it's important. I think the truth is important. And one of the first things the publisher said back to me was, I think this is very historical and that was one of the highest compliments. Yeah, without a doubt. You say in the book that growing up you learned maybe from various sources that to survive you needed to be appealing to men.

37:59Where was that messaging coming from? Well, when I was growing up the celebrities at the time were Pam Anderson, Jenny McCarthy, Carmen Electra. so you're like okay they all have implants and they're all you have sex appeal and they're dressing sexy like okay that's that's what you got to do to be powerful that's what I assume is be appealing to the opposite sex so yeah I started on that journey I thought that's what would make me happy or powerful and how do you feel about that today like obviously You're very beautiful and you like to have your hair a certain way and makeup. I'm the same. I love getting dressed up.

38:39I love wearing certain clothes and experimenting with different styles. There's still this murky debate where women can only be one thing. So you can't appear to be sexy and have a brain. You can't appear to be sexy and have an opinion about something. I think that still really stands. And there's many people that totally would disregard everything I've just said. I'm one of them. But I think that there is still this general consensus that how can a sexy woman have an opinion or how can a beautiful woman who wants to show off her body or dress in a certain way have an opinion on anything? How do you navigate that today?

39:17I think it's hard. And you're right. Like, it could be both. You know, I was coming to the UK and I called Benny. I'm like, Benny, I need hair and makeup. And yes, I'm going to be on camera. But as soon as I leave, I'm going to get home and probably not wear makeup for two months. So you can be both. And I do think more people are realizing that, that you can be both. You can be blonde and intelligent. Correct. How do you feel about where your self-worth derives from? Because obviously in the mansion, your self-worth came, it seems, 100 % from what you look like. Because you were being told that that was the most important thing.

40:02If you were a certain weight, you had to have the same colour hair, the same colour nails. Everything was, again, very mechanical and regimented and observed. It seemed highly observed. And then you start to believe that because it's all you're hearing all day and you're pitted against other women. how do you feel about I mean or where is your self-worth today where do you get it from is it still from how you look or are there other parts of your life that you feel hold that that confidence and that self-worth I remember when I was in therapy for five years the therapist told me the next thing you do however you make money make sure it has nothing to do with what you look like so I don't there's no ad on my social media I don't I don't post anything like that and I flip houses like I remodel and build homes and I like to add natural elements to them and and it's fun and it has nothing to do with what I look like and I think that's important because we age and it's been hard for me but yeah it gets easier as as you love yourself a little bit more and you you dive into what you love that has nothing to do with physical I think that's important.

41:17So now you're a little further down the line how do you see your life post-Mansion? How do you move on from that? Because obviously you wouldn't have written a book about it if you didn't want to honour that period of your life and take heed of the lessons you learned there and the experiences you had but I'm imagining you don't want to dwell on that period of your life equally so how do you move on from all of that well I wrote the book to help myself heal and to tell all the women that looked up to the place that it wasn't it wasn't what they thought it was and you had to just just just help the world hopefully and I think I did that and it was a healing journey and from here like I'm just gonna focus more on myself and I have a farm in Hawaii so once this oh nice I'm just gonna go over there and and just chill and you know I never wanted to be famous I never wanted to be an actor or anything like that um so maybe if I can talk about you know self-love and worth and self-acceptance on my social media and help people that's what I would want to do but other than that I just I like the quiet life yeah on a farm in Hawaii heaven why not how did the experience of living in the mansion of having a relationship where there were huge conditions involved well rules let's be blunt about it around everything to do with how you operated where you were how much of your attention went on to your partner slash husband sex all of it was conditional how has that affected how you think about relationships now and intimacy I think that I don't know now I have to just feel very safe with somebody and I was in a few relationships that were not very good and now I'm in a relationship that's very happy and healthy and you know I know that this person respects me and respects women so I think that's very very important.

43:24Yeah, safety seemed to come into it a lot. You know, you say even when you entered the mansion, realizing that you were a permanent resident at the mansion when that moment happened, that you felt safe for the first time in ages. So I'm imagining that's something that you still seek, but in just very different ways. Yeah, yeah. Now I actually feel safe. There it was was an illusion just you know just like the mansion itself yeah so strange how was it reflecting on everything in the book I mean you go into great detail in all areas was it liberating was it a painful experience to go about there I think it was liberating it was hard to talk about sex and death but I think it had to be in there because it's a big part of the story and yeah it's liberating and I'm I'm very happy and you know I was quiet for so long and so I appreciate getting the story out there yeah do you feel any guilt around speaking the truth now no I do see old photos of Hef and I and I think oh that was when I didn't know any better but I don't I don't have guilt anymore none it's gone no no it's a good thing it's freeing Yeah.

44:43You don't want to lug that around. Yeah. And it's nice to talk about it and be able to be honest finally. Yeah. I mean, I guess times have changed so hugely in terms of even 10 years ago, but certainly looking back 20 years ago, how Playboy had a place in culture, such a prominent place in culture and how women were seen has changed so hugely. it does feel like what you've documented is that shift. You lived through that entire shift of the demise of it. And it, you know, I mean, it still exists, but you've explicitly said it's not what we think it is. Yeah, it's definitely not. It was Hugh Hefner's playboy and beauty is subjective and he would only put in certain people in the magazine and it was Hef's world.

45:35And I do think and still wonder, like, did he hurt things by creating that magazine or did he help? He supposedly thought he helped with freedom and expression, but maybe he hurt the world a little bit, too. Well, I really enjoyed reading it. You know, at times I was like jaw on the floor reading it, but it was I couldn't put it down. I could not put this book down. So congratulations on having your book out there in the world. And thank you for talking to me today. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. Crystal, thank you so much for your time and energy. I know it's not going to be easy reliving all of those details, but I do think sharing stories like this is vital in changing hearts and minds.

46:25So thank you. Crystal's book, Only Say Good Things, Surviving Playboy and Finding Myself, is out now. What else are you reading, by the way? If you're not sure what to get into next, come and join the Happy Place Book Club on Instagram. We are unsurprisingly called at Happy Place Book Club. The Book Club is just a place for all fellow bookworms like myself to chat about what you're reading, what you're getting from the book, passing on tips as to what books we're enjoying. Also, there is a fair bit of displaying beautiful books in a colour coded way. Heaven. You'll also find Happy Place at Happy Place Official.

47:07So join us there, too. hopefully we'll chat there during the week but for now it's a huge thank you again to Crystal, to the producer Anushka Tate at Happy Play Studios and to you, I love ya

47:54We'll be right back.

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