Daisy May and Charlie Cooper: Being working class made us angry! Combat imposter syndrome

0:00Hello and welcome to Happy Place with me Fern Cotton. This is the show that encourages you to trust your gut. Today, I'm chatting to Daisy May and Charlie Cooper. Growing up with no money and being working class made us actually really fucking angry. I didn't realise that I still had a fucking chip on my shoulder about it. This year for me has been one of the hardest years of my life. Talking about like those patterns and how they keep coming back until you face them. And I feel like for the first time, I've really confronted it head on and had to take a look at parts of myself that I probably wanted to run from.

0:43Do you know what? I've wanted these two on the podcast forever. I am such a fan of this country and just them as a double act, as brother and sister. And it's so funny because Daisy and I, I don't know how we'd even swap numbers, but we'd been chatting for years on text. I'm talking like years and years. I remember texting all through lockdown and we'd FaceTime each other here and there. We tried to meet up and then both of us ended up not having childcare or something. So this was the first time we'd actually met, been in the same room together. And it was just brilliant. Just like from the minute they walked in the room, it was just laughing out loud, loads of swearing, which you're going to hear in just a moment.

1:27Charlie had a bit of a cold, so he was feeling a bit poorly, but you wouldn't know it from listening to this episode at all. The thing I love about Charlie and Daisy is just their honesty. I think when we get so much polished content thrown our way, if it's on social media or YouTube or whatever, people just like showing their best selves and their perfect lives. And Charlie and Daisy, not only in this episode, have like full-blown arguments, but they just say it as it is. There's no beating around the bush and I am here for it. So they're obviously a powerhouse duo. They play cousins in the completely hilarious This Country.

2:07If you've not seen it, oh my God, it's just the best show. Most recently, they've been sleeping in haunted houses for their new BBC show, Nightwatch, which you can watch right now. We talk about a lot in this chat. It's kind of funny and brilliant, but also they're really deep and we talk about some serious stuff too. So we talk about, obviously, paranormal activity, because that's what their new show is all about. We talk about having a fear of authority, which I think so many of us adults have. We constantly feel like we're about to be told off. So we chat about that. Also, we talk about working class, rural life, sibling relationships, getting sober.

2:47That is a really big moment of this chat. And importantly, trusting your gut and intuition. If they hadn't, there would not have been this country. And by the way, I hope you stick around to the end because Daisy May brought out her tarot cards. Right, here we go. This is the show.

3:26Hello, Daisy, May and Charlie. Hi. May. May. I cannot believe I'm seeing you in real life. I know. I feel like I know you much better than I do. Terrifying. Oh, I just remember, I don't remember if you remember this, but when you were on Dig It, I wrote in. I don't remember this because it's 30 years ago. This is a random kid. I wrote in and I did a picture of me and you and you showed it on Dig It. No, I did not. On a VHS somewhere. I know. We need to get that transferred digitally. I need to see that. Amazing. I thought you were going to say something more recent. No, that was, yeah, it was back in the day.

4:04Because we, sorry to leave you out for a minute, Charlie. No, go for it. You will be massively included in this chat. But we've been texting for ages. But you've not got a phone now, have you? No, I haven't. Yeah. But we were texting. I remember you once FaceTiming me with your mum. And I was like, in my kitchen. And I was like, oh, hey. I loved it. Oh, gosh. So fun. So fun. I'd be here with you. We need to have a lunch and chat about... We need to have a sleepover. Or a sleepover and chat about all the things. That would be fucking great. Talking about sleepovers, oh my God. Nightwatch, episode one.

4:34You're sleeping in a prison, trying to experience some paranormal activity. You surprisingly slept really well, Daisy. Out like a light. Because I took sleeping tablets. Oh my God. The whole point of the show was genuinely to see if we can find any sort of paranormal activity. And then she just conks out after 10 minutes. And then I'm left with my thoughts because we sort of filmed during the day at whatever location we're at. And then come 10pm, all the crew leave. So it's just me and Daisy in the building with mobile phones to sort of film on. And yeah, you just conked out and left me. I didn't sleep a wink that night.

5:16You're in a haunted prison. I'd shit myself. Horrible. Horrible. and because it's been derelict for like 15 years it's still got like bunk beds and graffiti no yeah that wasn't nice did you hear or see or get a feeling of anything during those hours whilst Daisy was asleep just your sort of windy ass and snoring yeah I mean but again it's like because you're talking about ghosts throughout the whole day so you work yourself up and it did it surprised me how scared I got across the series but it's just you're in a prison I mean it's like that massive atrium and completely silent so you're just waiting for something but whether there is actually anything there we did have a psychic that came with us on that first episode and she walked through some of the prison and she was saying here I see a Victorian man you know I can see Victorian prisoners here and it was built in the 70s 1970s that part of it that's a phenomenon yeah yeah I got you do you know what weirdly it was terrifying only because if anything's going to be bad it's going to hang out in a prison of course and I think because it was so silent hearing any sort of sound which obviously I didn't because I was you only you what you well you stayed you were yeah you stayed awake enough to do some self tanning yeah in the toilet very important when in prison very important absolutely yeah i mean you've both got a great fascination with this topic daisy you've written a book about it charlie you've made documentaries about folklore slightly different but you're certainly very open-minded to what could be out there i know from even like the first chapter of your book hexi witch this was introduced to you at quite a young age, but here comes your coffee, babe.

7:11It's not a ghost. Oh, yeah. In that book, you start by saying your mum used to say to you, your granny, is it Bertie? Yes. Granny Bertie's watching you from the other side. She's not here anymore, but she's watching you. And that kind of put the willies up here. Well, that's fucked up, is it not? It is a bit. Who says that? Who says that to a child? I look back at the stuff that our parents said But there was always... 80s parenting was unbelievable. Oh, wild. It was great. There was always a Ouija board, like, lying around. What, in your house? She gave us one. She bought one from the works, I think, bizarrely, and gave it to us when we were, like, 10.

7:55Oh, my God. Did you use it? Did you give it a go? Yeah, but I mean, it was just... I think I remember you pushing it quite a bit. But, like, she just didn't... She wasn't bothered about anything. And we were also allowed to watch like poltergeist, all that kind of stuff from a young age. Scream. I used to get dragged to go see like psychic nights in like the back rooms and pubs. Yeah, that's very my mum. Oh, really? Oh, yeah, yeah. Loves it. All of that stuff. I think if you're grown up, if you've grown up with it, you're more, you're open-minded, aren't you? Yeah, without a doubt. My mum will do all sorts of weird shit even now.

8:31Like she'll, if you get a photo and there's an orb in it, She has zoomed in 30 times to try and find a face in that. She's like, oh, my God, it's my dead dog, Will, in the orb. It's the three dots. She absolutely loves it. I'm not mocking you, Lynn, if you are. She doesn't listen. Oh, love you, Lynn. It's fine. But she loves it. But I think, yeah, you're so right. If you've been brought up with that kind of conversation, very normalised, you are really open-minded to stuff. And you've seen ghost legs. I've seen ghost legs. Right, tell us about the ghost legs. The bizarre thing about him, right, was I was living in a house that had never been lived it was like a new build never been lived in before and it was about five o 'clock I was led on the bed with my son who was I think it was been about 18 months at this point just watching tv and I heard this like running what sounded like bare feet it sounds insane but we had like on our landing we had like sort of those lights uh what are they called?

9:33Sort of sensor lights. Oh yeah. Which will go on if there's somebody there. So I just expected to see my daughter running in the room and it was literally like a pair of child's legs with like white PE shorts. You know like those sort of shiny stripes and it literally just ran around the bed. it was over in like 10 seconds, not even that. Like where the torso was, it was just legs short and then it kind of like blended in with the rest of the room. That's the only way I could, and it was bizarrely, it should have been fucking terrifying, but it was like massively underwhelming. Like my brain was just like.

10:20Yeah, trying to catch up. Trying to like, it happened so fast. My brain was like trying to figure out what the fuck it was. Yeah. And I just, I saw it. And I don't know what the fuck, why. Have you had spooky experiences? Yeah, I've had a couple. I don't know if I've seen a ghost. I remember being in this really old pub that was a hotel that I was staying in for work. And at, I don't know, two in the morning, something got in bed with me to the point where I felt a weight drop next to me and it woke me up. And then I was checking all the cupboards. It shit me up so bad. I didn't see anything. Yeah.

10:57And then another time, this is just like a weird thing and I don't know what it even means, but I woke up one morning in my house. This was years and years ago. I was like in my early 20s. And there was a painting that was on the wall, you know, like fastened with a nail hanging up in the middle of the wall. And as I came down the stairs, it was, you know, two metres this way in the middle of the room on the floor. And I was like, how the hell has a painting gone from being hung neatly on the wall to jumping off onto the floor here? Anyway, I get up, my mum rings me, and she was like, something really sad to tell you.

11:28Your granddad sadly died last night. And he was really into painting. So I instantly obviously made that connection and was like, oh, maybe it's a little sign from my granddad. There's no other explanation as to how that painting could have gone from the wall to the floor. It's too weird. A thousand percent. That's given me goosebumps, you're saying. So I think sometimes we can think of ghosts as, oh my God, terrifying. But actually it can be quite comforting having an experience like that when you feel like you've had a little sign from someone. Oh my God. Definitely. And aren't we all invested?

12:01Like we all want to know whether there's something after this, right? Yeah. I just, the more things that have happened to me, I just, I mean, he's still kind of on the fence about it, but I can't deny anything. It just is what, like it is what it is. I mean, I've not had an experience, but so I can't until that happens. I do feel like in the next decade there will be some way of being able to really scientists would be able to say yes this absolutely fucking what was that TV show what was that TV show back in the day it would have been very art era growing up watching Strange But True Strange But True Michael Aspel Michael Aspel that used to shit me up the poltergeist one I can still remember I can remember the images the pictures oh my god It was so good.

12:52It was terrifying. It was so scary. And it was on like 6pm or something. I know, yeah. It was outrageous. Everyone our age watched it. Everyone, yeah. It was brilliant TV. Oh, that Poltergeist episode. But I tell you what, the more I've learned about ghosts, especially with watching near-death experience stuff on YouTube, it's like Poltergeist. Just because you don't change after you die. If you were an arsehole in real life, You're going to be an arsehole. You're going to throw shit around. Do you get what I mean? That is true. That is very true. Yeah, why change? Yeah. Just because you're dead.

13:32Exactly that. That's so good. I don't know what the point was about that one. It's fucking funny though. What got you into folklore? What sort of piqued that interest? Sort of, well we grew up in Gloucestershire so we sort of had a rural upbringing and it was sort of one of those, I mean, it was all around sort of growing up, but I think a lot of it was just during lockdown and exploring what's on your sort of home turf a little bit and doing this country as well. It was like a sort of deep dive into what it was like growing up, you know, in rural England. And it's weird when you sort of try to explain it to other people and, you know, cheese rolling, Morris dancing and all that sort of stuff.

14:16But I mean, it's having a bit of resurgence now. it's such an amazing world to get lost into because so much comes under it who's your favourite folklore character? the green man's a great one it's such a the sweet corn guy no what did he do? the sweet corn guy he's just part of the advertising world I don't think he's folklore he works in advertising it's like an old pagan symbol of like rebirth and renew it's all a bit ambiguous about his origins but if you go to like is it you know when you can get like the things that hang up on your in your on your garden wall and you get the markets sort of little like with the leafy face yeah that's him i've got one of them in the garden yeah no sweet corn no it's been seen that's such a great folklore he'd be turning in his bush he really would i mean this country i still it's my one of my comforting things that i watch if i'm like at home or i'm tired or i'm poorly and i just need something that i know is going to be a guaranteed laugh and i just i've watched every episode about five times it's just the best thing ever but what i didn't realize you know in the run-up to this chat today is it nearly didn't happen it was so close not happening because you guys worked for so long on developing these characters, getting the scripts, getting the whole idea of the show ready.

15:45You had contracts in place, ready to go, and then ITV dropped it last minute before you were about to get the pilot kind of up and running. Going through that whole process of years and years of being so dedicated to it, knowing you had a really good idea, what stopped you at that point from completely giving up and going, sod this, I can't be bothered to carry on anymore? Well, I think I was pretty close to that. We were fucking pretty close. I'll tell you what it is. And I've always, I think it was just so intuitive. It's like when you know that something, that you are meant to do something in life, I can't explain it.

16:22It's like in your bones. And it's like, imagine a fucking JK Rowling and sort of got like the 43rd, you know, person who, the publisher who'd said, look, we're not interested. And he's gone, oh, fuck it. Do you know what? The worst witch is out. Why bother with this? but but i i i can't explain it though for me anyway there was such a knowing and i think it's so weird because when we got that we got a phone call i mean we've been working on it for like what five years or something something like that yeah with this production company with this guy who i mean honestly shouldn't been anywhere fucking near comedy and because we were so terrified of authority like we would we'd just bend over backwards and you know write whatever whatever this guy wanted.

17:08And it was getting further and further away from what the show was meant to be. And I remember we did this pilot. It was just, it wasn't us. It wasn't our humor. It was like, I can't explain it. It just was like the OC, wasn't it? It was clean. The OC. It was clean. It was clean. Well, the stuff like, you know, like the notes back were like, oh, the characters are too unlikable. You know, they can't really swear because you want to be on their side. Just meh. I mean, yeah. And stuff like the mum's, like, because Daisy always did Carrie's mum's voice, which is always amazing. The best thing ever.

17:44Such a big part of the show. Yeah. But it was like, oh, yeah, maybe it's, she can't just be a disembodied voice. She has to be a character that we see. And so there's all those sort of things that made it original and made it unique that just got stripped back. And yeah, because it's our first project. We were sort of... But also when you don't work in telly, like I remember when I first started, you just say, yes, I'll do it. Yeah. because you're like, I can't even get kicked out of telly land. It feels so otherworldly. Of course you're not going to have the guts to go, first job, yeah, actually, you're talking bollocks, mate.

18:15I know what this is. It's too terrifying. That's exactly it. And I, you know, it makes me so angry, really, because I think they don't know what they're fucking doing either. They're just sort of, you know, bullshitting, really. But the only good thing was that we were doing it together. We were doing it together. If it was on our own or... We got the phone call from our agent. She'd made us sign this fucking awful contract, which basically we'd signed our life away and the characters. So we'd found out that we had been dropped from ITV and we'd been dropped from the production company. And if we wanted to do the show, we'd have to front up like 350 grand to be able to buy back our own characters.

19:00and I was just like, he went out and I thought he was going to fucking kill himself. Like that's how you laugh but it was the worst. After five years of working on something and then having that amount of money demanded I. When you're so poor, when you're so fucking poor as well, I mean it was just, but I just, you know, I thought this can't be, this fucking can't be it. I just knew and talking about like intuition and also I do totally believe in the law of attraction and I believe that and destiny and I believe that we were supposed to do that show but we were also supposed to go through that journey to get to where we were at.

19:47It just shows like gut instinct can be so easily overlooked but actually it's so valuable. Oh my God, yeah. I mean, that's the thing. Yeah, not listening to that. Every mistake we made was just going again and just thinking, oh, when we get to the next stage, we'll correct it then. Let's just get muddled through this, say yes to everything and then hopefully we'll have a chance to... Take out the ass now and then... It was all, it was horrendous. But it also makes me worry because I think about how many people there are out there who have had fucking incredible ideas. You're really talented. And been put off by these fucking kind of insecure, you're like bullshitty, grandiose kind of people full of bollocks really.

20:31Because that's all it is. I mean, it's not, they always made it feel like TV was such a sacred thing and it was so fucking, you know, hard to get into and all these like celebrity parties were so special. And it's fucking not. It's just bollocks. And it's so brutal. It's me and I don't do it. I actually don't think I could put myself in that environment at this point in time because it's so brutal. and I think there is still this sort of strange hierarchy and if you're like not in the gang, you're not in it and it's just, I cannot be dealing with it. Who can keep up with them? No, it's terrifying.

21:05Thank God you didn't give up. I mean, what you created was so brilliant. Not only just laugh out loud funny, it's so clever and also an amazing portrayal of working class rural life which we hadn't really seen on TV or really heard about so much. You certainly hear more about working class of inner city life, but it was such an interesting portrayal and so brilliantly accurate. How do you feel about the whole class thing? Because it gets brought up in so many interviews with you guys. I'm from a working class suburban background, so I know the feelings that you can have. I certainly went through periods of thinking, I wish I wasn't working class.

21:42I wish I had like more sophistication about me or I knew this is like more in teen childhood. or I knew people that were could like help me out in certain ways um now I'm so proud of being working class I'm so proud and I know all the benefits that I've gained from that sort of upbringing with my work ethic and how I want to do things what are your feelings around it do you know it's so funny that you should say this because I think that this for me especially this has been a massive thing because I think growing up with no money and being working class made us actually really fucking angry and made us a real us and them sort of thing like fucking hell you know you're so lucky because you know your parents there's probably jealousy when I was at RADA because I think fuck it's so fucking easy for you because you don't have to you know your parents pay for you to stay in a flat while you're up here while my I've got a fucking like send money home from my student loan like and that made me really angry towards people from affluent families and it's still I didn't realize that I still had a fucking chip on my shoulder about it even in like if I meet somebody who's got a posh accent I think I fucking I don't like that person and what's funny is I think life brings you the same pattern you'll get into the same pattern with that person and and I keep finding that upper class person that keeps coming into my life that I feel really threatened by and feel like I've got no control and feel completely disempowered and it's like that person will keep coming into my life until I learn the lesson from it and it's it's been for me that's been massive and I feel like I'm finally getting I don't know self-worth and thinking fucking hell like it isn't us and them like it isn't I'm putting so much importance about this kind of divide and people have their own shit going on and of course but it's it's it's fascinating it is I had this really interesting thing when I was about 16 I became friends with this group really weirdly this group of public school boys I'd met one of them on a holiday and we all got really friendly and they had a very different life to me you know they all went to really posh boarding schools they were all boarding and you know they're all still my friends now and it was this real culture clash of them sort of meeting all of my mates and these two different worlds yeah but we found it equally fascinating like both groups sort of like sussing each other out and each other's school system and like the whole thing it's been really fascinating and you know and growing up and you know i i see them all obviously just as humans with their flaws and their problems like the same as me but actually you know you sort of then see oh god being sent to boarding school was bleak they had a really terrible time yeah or i think all the sort of assumptions that i was making were totally blown out of the water but i still get it if i'm interviewed by a sort of public school i'm imagining a journalist i like panic i'm freaking out i don't know how to you know express myself in the interview i feel really uneducated yes i'm worthy yeah i hate it that's still my little thing it's so what it's so wild that it's still it's like you know like a dog that's been you know kicked with white trainers will always go for white trainers it's funny how triggering it is it's like i've got this is all my shadow shit that i've got this is nothing to do with them it's wild how do you think it's impacted both of you in your career now because you both I mean obviously you had instant success overnight almost but you've both gone off to do really interesting projects do you think any of that initial entry into the world of TV and the pushback that you had has given you a level of imposter syndrome or feeling like you still don't belong in it oh probably me definitely I'm so fucking talented I don't ever feel like Oh, my God.

25:49So arrogant. You say that so many times in one day. Anyway. Yeah, I got a huge imposter syndrome, yeah. Because it was just, I guess because, I mean, you always did drama at school growing up and you were always, like, performing and it was always your dream, wasn't it, basically? Yeah. And then I just spent so long not quite knowing what I wanted to do and it was a lot later that I sort of was going to be in this country. I never had any idea that I was ever going to do acting. The idea of standing up and talking in front of a room with people would have been mortifying. So it was like a happy accident.

26:27It was like right place, right time. But obviously you gave me a lot of confidence and it was years of reading the script out and I just naturally became that character. I mean, he was just perfect. But again, I believe that that was your destiny. But yeah, it still feels like, I don't know, I worked in Argos probably. But yeah, I guess it's just, yeah, you still feel, oh God, am I, do I deserve to be here? Was that just a complete lucky accident that's like a one-off or could it have been anyone? All that sort of stuff. But that's. But I think if you're then doing, you've been in movies, like once you've got subsequent projects, it's not luck anymore.

27:05Do you know what I mean? You have that initial success, but you've got to be good. Otherwise people won't hire you. Totally. I tell you what's really helped since having kids as well. Suddenly, like everything else is totally insignificant. all that matters is them and that I'm providing for them and then it just got to the point where I'm in a position where I can just pursue stuff I'm really interested in that I want to do and that is a really fortunate position alright Shana I'm swinging your dick about it you've got a great way of bringing me down that's what sisters are for do you think you would do this country again you've said previously that it would be criminal to not revisit yeah it's difficult we get asked all the time.

27:47I find that I would be like, you sort of want to leave those characters the ages they were. It would feel weird. No, that is a total lie because if we got paid enough to do and I'm serious, we would fucking do it. Yeah, it's true. But that is all it comes down to. Honestly, it's just money. Would Kerry and Curtin have kids? Curtin would. I don't know. But I've had my fucking lips done and I've like 10 stone lighters. So I don't know how we'd fucking explain that. That's the only thing. It could be a complicated backstory. Kerry's had a glow up. Yeah, tapeworm. Tapeworm. Oh, my God. I don't know.

28:22But yeah, if we got paid enough, we definitely would. But they just don't have enough money to pay us. It would be a lot of pressure as well, because the longer you leave it, and it's like you get so many people saying, you know, I mean, if we ever did bring it back, oh, it's not as good as it used to be, or it's lost its way, that would kill me. And I think we did three series, and we had an amazing time doing it, but it definitely felt by the end we had done this and it was time to move on. And you can almost just get to leave it like perfectly as it is knowing that you just nailed it. It's a great feeling.

28:54Totally. But I mean, but that's why when doing this show, Nightwatch was like so nice because, I mean, there's so much of Karen Kern in us anyway, but our relationship, it was like a chance to hang out without the pressure of writing a script and all the other like bollocks that goes on. So it was just us fucking around. It was just really nice. And also, I mean, you say on the show that you don't actually, or you hadn't been hanging out that much in life, just generally. No, not really. It's the most I've seen you in five years. You never invite me around. I always have you over for Sunday lunch.

29:30You never invite me. But I don't expect that. I deal with your chimp son smashing my house up. honestly there's always something missing as well when they come over oh my god thieves thieving and I found a diptyque candle smashed to sliveries with their clumsy claws fucking they are literally like two tornadoes they are so scared of you good yeah I tell you fucking why because he they don't he does that parenting where it's like he'll be like gentle parenting yeah where his son will be like stabbing a dog and he'll be like oh don't do that darling oh my god you are such a bitch can i say that a grade eight bitch you're a fucking goof treat oh yeah thanks you're a wimp with your kids you are getting bullied by your kids they're forceful we've got two boys they are under the age of three we had two under two and they are But together, they're a force.

30:34Yeah, they're boys. Boys are a nightmare. Yeah. Absolute nightmare. So, right, so we've worked out the reason why you're not hanging out. But this show has rectified it somewhat. Like, it's great to do a project together. When you're getting paid for it, it was to hang out. I said you enjoyed it just for... Okay. I did. I did enjoy it. It was great. I was taking my night off. I really... No, honestly, though, I missed you. I did miss you for a bit and then he is the funniest person I will ever meet in your life but you've got siblings right yeah I've got a brother yeah younger brother I bet nobody makes you laugh like my brother is so funny he's the driest person he doesn't know he's being he's not trying to be funny but everything he says is hilarious laugh out loud funny he's the best is that because you're the only thing that you guys share is your experience like you both share the same parents yeah So you both have to like have a fucking sense of humour about that.

31:33Yeah, that's true. It's a way of coping. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that's what it is. My brother's also incredibly quiet. So he doesn't say much. And then so when he does, it lands. It's great. It's really good. He's like the perfect person to have at a dinner table when you've got loads of mates there. And he'll chip in with like the one liner of the night. And he's not trying to be funny. No. It's the best thing. But he's just so secure in himself. And just, oh, I love those people. Because I'm not good when people are trying it. Like, people tell jokes. I can't bear it. It makes me sort of cringe.

32:10I just like humour when people are naturally funny. Or they're not meaning to be funny. But it's just landed really well. Yes. I'm not good with like a boom-boom. No, no. That's exhausting. Yeah. Where somebody's doing a bit to you. Like a routine. Oh, my God. Oh, no. That kills me. if someone says do you want to hear a joke I think oh fuck my kids do that to me all the time but you can fake you can like laugh fake laugh with them I go can I do it in five minutes I'm sorry in five minutes I've got time right now that's so good but it was a joke but when we because it was actually when the crew would leave at like ten I mean we did have a period where we'd just talk and it was all about stuff that happened as kids wasn't it yeah and it was like fucking out childhood stuff that you just remembering stuff together and you go fuck our dad is a fucking narcissist and he fucked us up loads that's the only thing we came to the we don't know whether ghosts exist but we know our dad is a fucking narcissist there's some of the stuff that I found out you take after him so do you yes you do yes you fucking do do I?

33:19yes save it for series 2 save it for 10pm series 2 but when do you otherwise get a chance with your sibling or whoever it is mate to sit down and like have a deep chat you've got to be in a prison at 10pm with no distractions do you know what I mean exactly without the kids without the kids oh that is blissful to be away from even in Gloucester prison Gloucester prison for a break from the kids wonderful incarcerate me now I mean have you ever had a relationship prior to making this show where you would air things with each other chat about issues that you've got is that the sort of dynamic you've got before we wrote this country it was wasn't it because we I think it was because we were such fucking losers and we were too ashamed to have like all of our peers were off doing like being successful and living in London and stuff and we only had each other not by yeah who wouldn't judge the other one because we were both in the same both as much of losers yeah well you were at RADA which I know was horrendous do you know we just had Joanna Page on who went to RADA and just was like traumatised by the whole thing.

34:30I'd love to talk to her. I saw her at Paddington today. Really? That's weird. How funny. She was traumatised by her. I'd love to know if she had the same teacher I did. She's same. I don't know if she named them in her book but she writes about it you know a hell of a lot. Fucking horrendous. But again this is what makes me so angry because it's like anybody that acts like they're the fucking gatekeeper. of this, you know, the industry, and it's like you have to behave a certain way, and it's just all bollocks and bravado, and it's because they're so fucking insecure, and I just wish I knew that then, because I would have just gone, do you know what, I'm not, I don't, this isn't fucking right.

35:13But you don't, because you're young, and you're desperate to succeed, so you put up with it, and you can all look back, I'm sure, whether it's a teacher or an ex-partner or someone who's talked to us badly, and you take it, and you think, God, I wish I hadn't done that. But you're not there yet. Do you know what I mean? You don't have the resilience and the experience to have the confidence to say, I'm not going to put up with that. Thanks very much. Yeah. But you were there. So then you sort of moved in with Daisy at RADA, right? Yeah. And that's where you started writing. Basically, I'd gone to uni and dropped out after two years.

35:44Should have been two weeks, but I don't know why I tried to stick it out. Terrible. Because you were trying to please dad. Doing sports science. I was doing sports science. Right. I hated it. nothing like you're so creative and it's like I'm not academic at all you wanted to be a PE teacher no I mean I liked football but this was straight after college but all my mates were going to uni so it's like you better choose you know gotta go oh I'll just do sports science like that but big mistake but then you were yeah we had left because you'd gone to Rado at the same time I'd gone to uni so you were in your last year no I was in my second year I think when you dropped out yeah yeah and then for your last year i stayed we just slept on your floor and she had these sort of student digs in sort of central london garris street so it's like amazing location yeah so it was perfect for me because it was a chance to clear my head explore london you know and it like and then you needed me because you were so homesick and hated being there right oh i was fucking yeah just having him it was like it was exactly like that episode you know of this country where he's like the wife and I'm working at the dump.

36:56It was like that. I come in. I love that episode. And you'd be like making sausage and mash on this little tube, like cooker thing. It was a bit, yeah, it was Dickensian. It was Dickensian. But it was amazing because it was really formative in our relationship and that's when we, yeah, started writing stuff for ideas that eventually became this country. But it was the best. And I remember thinking at the time, we'll never forget this year. Because it was like amazing. And yeah, we just wander around sort of. You're so bored. And we'd do like ghost tours around. Oh, like the Ripper tour. Yeah, stuff like that.

37:28But we didn't have money. We'd just sort of hang around at the back. I remember we had 20 quid and we thought, right, let's go to Soho and get some weed. And I said, right, you just go up to somebody and see if they've got it. And I just remember seeing my brother going off and then like 20 blokes suddenly go and I thought, yeah, going to fucking kill him. and you came back with some oregano it was oregano we smoked it anyway we just had like a chest infection about three months after but you smelled lovely just seeing the back of your your arse I'm sorry that's the funniest thing fucking head just being taken down panic just oh my god I shouldn't be here oh my god I'm sorry I made you do that that I'm so sorry about that look this is such a therapeutic podcast session it is It's just like we're getting it all.

38:22We're getting it out. Daisy, you've been incredibly honest over the last few years about your mental health and your ups and downs. I'm definitely trying to do the same and just like normalise it and talk about these things. Where are you at at the moment, would you say? It's been, this year for me has been like one of the hardest years of my life. But it's been one of the most amazing because talking about like those patterns, and how they keep coming back until you face them and deal with them. And I feel like for the first time, I've really kind of confronted it head on and had to take a look at parts of myself that I probably wanted to run from.

39:09And from that, I think I'm so at peace with myself than I've ever been. And I'm starting to realise that happiness, to me anyway, at the minute, is to figure out what is disrupting my peace and taking that away. And I think I know myself so much more now, which I didn't. That's the best thing about getting older. It is. Just think, oh, I know that doesn't work for me. I'm not going to bother trying that again and again. and not doing the people pleasing stuff. It's a big one. Friendships, like cutting that right down. I mean, I have one friend and that's all I can fucking cope with. Is that me?

39:58You're not even on the list of ones. I don't see you. You don't have a phone, so it's quite hard to get hold of you. Oh, that is fucking great. So is that part of this? Because I was fascinated because I think you might have either emailed me or something and said I don't have a phone anymore. Yeah. And I was intrigued. You're like Ed Sheeran. You're just like, I'm ditching the mobile. Oh, you don't need it. Honestly, I just felt like I just thought I just can't. I don't want anybody to be able to contact me. Including my brother. It's just, it's mad. How do you, how are you getting in touch? She just calls me from her boyfriend's phone.

40:34Oh, right, okay. Yeah. It's just, it says Ant on the phone rather than Daisy. So I know she's calling. But no, I mean, it has been, yeah. that is a really bold move and I think I mean I'm always on my phone I hate it yeah me too but I would find it hard I panic when it's not yeah that I'm not reachable to someone I also like mindlessly looking at it sometimes just to like check out and I know I'm doing it but I'm like I sort of need to just check out of reality for a bit and I just go it's like half an hour I hate it but your head's like throbbing by the end of it yeah it's just yeah I hate it but yeah the people policing I think getting rid of phone is like the biggest goodbye to people pleasing it is because we're constantly like all of our actions are informed by oh I don't want to rock the boat I don't want to piss that person off is this person not going to like me and it rules so much of your decision making and I think if you can free yourself from that that is bliss it's hard but it's bliss my drinking went through the roof as well and I think that was being around the wrong people and not being myself having to drink to be able to fucking cope.

41:45Do you drink at all now? No, I haven't done for like nearly three years. That's amazing. That's been life changing for me. Yeah, I bet. But yeah, it's so funny, isn't it? Like all these things like that you think matter so much and like worrying about like pissing people off and it just, it fucking, it just doesn't matter at all. Like you're not on your deathbed thinking, oh fucking hell, like. so-and-so is upset in 2010. Oh, no, exactly. Message back on the WhatsApp group. No, who cares? And anybody that does get funny about you not texting them back is a fucking cunt anyway. Yeah, they're not worth it.

42:24Get a life. Get a life. Yeah. Freedom. It's fucking great. Two things before we wrap up. The first is my last question, but it's not the end. So my last question to both of you is, where is your happy place? I mean, I've just got into metal detecting. Oh, my God. Wasn't expecting that. It is the best thing. Right. Mackenzie Crickwood, he wants everything back. He wants his identity back. I'm sorry. Are you going to like local beaches? What are you doing? No, you just, I mean, you've got to get permission. Sure. From places. But there's a place I go near home. And it's the best because... What have you found?

43:00Like Roman stuff. Really? Medieval stuff. Wow. It is the best thing. Because you're just, it's just you. Yeah. And it's something that you're not thinking about anything else other than what you're doing. Yeah. And it's like the best way of clearing your head of everything. Wow. I'm so grateful I found it. It is, honestly, it is the best thing. I love that for you. And you just don't know, it's like treasure hunting. So it's that classic, you know, massive dopamine hit when you find something. Especially like what, like a Roman coin are we talking? Yeah, Roman coin, Roman brooches. And then it's like, it's a really grounding thing because it's like, you find your place in history a little bit.

43:35I mean, it sounds really pretentious, but you're sort of like, you know you're picking something up that hasn't been touched in like 2000 years like i found a roman ring a few weeks ago and you sort of like who like you're you're just glazing over there i'm so bored but i have to listen to this i know but you could sell that to me i went to a roman museum last week because i went on my daughter's school trip as a volunteer oh that's cool i love that on the coach the whole thing and i learned so much about roman britain that i had no clue about and it was fascinating you could sell that ring to that museum probably could yeah it's not worth anything though no they dropped a lot of stuff the thing is but it's like it makes you like 2000 years it's gone it makes you realise that we're not around for a long time true but what are they going to discover what are they going to be detecting in 2000 years from now the boo-boos yeah the boo-boos and phones everywhere sad state of affairs nothing yeah it is we've got no personality as a generation do you not think well not really Not as in like things.

44:38We don't really make. It's just plastic. Drop things. Yeah, plastic. Yeah, landfill. Yeah. Where's your happy place, Daisy? In bed with a candle watching either Strange But True or Near Death Experience stories or astral projection stories. That's it. That's all I watch. Heaven. What's yours? I want to know what yours is. Mine changes every day. It's definitely at home. maybe just with my kids or on my own love being on my own i love it maybe doing some painting oh music playing just like very simple very quiet very calm something like that or in the sea like been in the sea yes yeah now you said before we started you would do my tarot i'm gonna do your Oh my God.

45:28Absolutely. What do you want? I'm so excited. What do you mean? What are their themes? Well, you can ask a question or we can just do a general one. General. Let's go general. What I need you to do, can you just knock on them and think of maybe a question, have something that you want to ask yourself. Well, like I'm doing a little tap like this. Yeah. Okay. And then just keep shuffling them while thinking of something. Oh my God. I could go in any direction with this. you don't have to tell us but the thing is when you do it if you don't like what the tarot card says you just put them back together and shuffle them again yeah but that's for me this is keep shuffling oh I've got to shuffle them yeah keep shuffling right so choose any three cards and put them like past, present, future that one jumped out so ob that one stood in right so that would be the future card right oh king of pentacles this is like a man with money is what that means.

46:27What's that from the past? From the past. Usually generous but never stupid with his money. His material possessions are carefully purchased and cared for. Maybe very stubborn, blunt to the point of exasperation, overly materialistic or miserly. Okay. So this is interesting. This is present. This is the lovers. So this is exactly what it says on the tin. Just really passionate. look at her bikini she's amazing I know yeah I'm into that image really passionate I like it and the future oh my god this is amazing this is like reaping this is like all the work that you've done in whatever area of your life whether it be career or romance or home life it's like you've put you're about to reap the rewards of all the work you've put in like this is the time now thank you for my tarot I loved that that was very enjoyable and thank you so much for both being on Happy Place.

47:25Good luck with the Night Watch and everything else you're doing. Thank you, Charlie. Thank you, Daisy May. It's a pleasure. Daisy May and Charlie, thank you so much. I just love that. I've left feeling so joyful and also love my tarot reading. God, who's had their tarot cards read by Daisy May? How lucky am I? You can watch Daisy May and Charlie's new show, Night Watch, on the BBC now. All right, next week, someone else who's been on the show before about seven years ago and I've been so desperate to talk to them again. Until then, a huge thank you to Daisy May and to Charlie, to the producer, Anushka Tate, at Happy Play Studios and to you, you're the best.

48:23Thank you.