David Tennant: Internal voices, LGBTQ+ activism, and 80s nostalgia

0:00Hello and welcome to Happy Place with me Fern Cotton. This is the show that knows none of us are immune to insecurities and anxieties. Today I'm chatting to David Tennant. Maybe I've got quite a unique experience in some ways because it happened very suddenly. I'd been working as an actor, my job didn't change, but life really did. I think from the outside one imagines that might be quite empowering because I've been on the other side of it when someone walks into a room and everyone notices. You imagine that person must feel very, very powerful, very strong, very confident and then when suddenly you're that person, it's completely The opposite.

0:38Not being able to walk into a room anonymously is, it's like your skin's been flayed off. You feel terribly insecure, very vulnerable. David is a hugely successful actor, obviously, known for TV shows like Broadchurch and of course as the 10th Doctor Who. In fact, a lot of his life revolves around Doctor Who. He was a massive fan growing up and went on to marry Georgia, who's one of my lovely mates, who he met on set. and she's the daughter of the fifth Doctor Who, Peter Davison. It's wild. What a family. I actually asked David if he reckons he manifested his Doctor Who career. I wonder if you can guess what he made of that question.

1:21You'll find out. Anyway, his new show is called The Rivals. I am addicted to this show. It couldn't be more up my street if it tried. It's on Disney Plus and it's based on a Jilly Cooper novel. We talk about it during this chat but suffice to say it's an absolute riot. It's funny, there's loads of brilliant 80s fashion and 80s songs in there, it's incredible. So I know David in real life and it's quite a weird thing when I have people that I actually know in real life on the podcast. It's almost like I need to establish firmer rules so I know what topics to touch on and which topics to totally avoid.

1:59Essentially David's daughter is best friends with my daughter. So we spend a lot of time ferrying these children from my house to his house and vice versa. There's lots of chaos and lots of times the kids don't want to leave each other's houses etc. So I know David in a very domestic sense actually. They're just the most wonderful family ever. So with this chat it was utterly refreshing to talk to David about something other than school assemblies and when homework is due, which feels the most part of our chatter normally. Although I have to say, as you'll hear at the beginning, it was a bit weird having to switch from school gate chatter to proper official happy play stuff because we're very official.

2:47The market's uncertain, revenues tied and hiring on hold. That's why results driven companies are using Upwork to keep work moving. Go to Upwork.com today and start hiring proven freelance talent fast. No bulky overhead. No rigid long-term contracts. Just the right expert right when you need them. Work smarter and faster with Upwork. Go to Upwork.com now and find your freelance expert. That's U-P-W-O-R-K.com. Post a job for free and get started today. Hi, this is Knox from the Popcast with Knox and Jamie. And maybe like us at the Popcast, you also know people who have been smokers or vapors. And Zen is the one product it seems like everyone is talking about because there are many good reasons to make a change to Zen nicotine pouches.

3:31Reasons like Zen nicotine pouches are still America's number one choice for smoke-free, hands-free nicotine satisfaction. And you can choose between 10 varieties, each variety available in either three or six milligrams. Check out zen.com slash find to find Zen at a store near you. Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical. You're invited It's a spending evening on Fremont Avenue. For generations, this house has been home to soulful music, good food, and cutthroat card games. Saints and sinners. Unexpected laughs and unspoken truths. Good times. Hard times. And, of course, family.

4:10Always family. So pull up a chair and join us at Fremont Avenue. A world premiere play only at Arena Stage. Performances start October 8th. Tickets at arenastage.org. at Walgreens we know flu season can feel a little chaotic so we're going to give you our flu info in a meditation keeping you calm just like a certified Walgreens pharmacist will do if you're a little little nervous so walk in or schedule an appointment and Walgreens will handle the rest that's the human kind of help Walgreens vaccine subject to availability state age and health related restrictions may apply

4:55okay let's do it here's the show

5:19I'd say there's been a lot of gold so far. And it might not get any better than this. So I hope you've got this down. Just in case we've peaked. It's going to be solid gold. Right. David. Hi. How are you? I'm all right. I'm fine, I think. Yeah. There aren't many Davids out there these days. Lots of Dave's. Not many Davids. When I was at school, my original name is David MacDonald. Yeah. I was at school with another David MacDonald. I mean, I was with about 1 ,500 Davids. Somebody who had my actual same name in the same year group. How irritating. How irritating. But it used to be such a ubiquitous name.

5:55But it was Dave. And now you cannot find them. I like that you've just stuck with Dave. Does anyone call you Dave? No one. Dad used to call me Dave. Really? And every now and again, you'll come across someone who just reverts to Dave absolutely instinctively. It's a bit bold, isn't it? It is a bit bold, yeah. Just going with Dave. Yeah. Yeah, but it's never, I've never been a Dave. That's like once I bumped into Jason Donovan and I called him Jace. You don't know him well enough to do that. And then I walked away mortified. He's got a slight, he's got a kind of loosey-goosey quality though, hasn't he?

6:31I bet he loved it. I don't think he stepped, I mean, I know, you know, I don't know Jason well, but I, he, whenever I meet him, he's so charming. He's so open and friendly. I can only imagine he sort of is a Jace Jace it still makes me feel a bit sick when I think about it so I got a sneaky peek at the first episode of The Rivals did you know this could not be any more up my street if it tried I loved it so much I can't wait to watch episode 2 it's so fun the 80s soundtrack is incredible the soundtrack is sensational it's set in 1986 it's of course a Dame Julie Cooper novel. And it's just the fashion and the music is absolute peak.

7:19I know that they spent a large chunk of their considerable budget on a lot of really banging tracks. It really counts when you watch it, doesn't it? Oh, massively. I think it just takes you back to that decade. And I was a kid in the 80s, so it was like a visceral reaction to watching it. But I just loved it. So much fun. Brilliant, brilliant storyline amazing cast brilliant characters for you these days what does a project or a character have to have for you to say yes well this one very particularly was my wife that's what made me say yes to this one because she knew the book I think she'd read a bit of Jilly Cooper as a not as a child but as a younger woman or as maybe as a sort of adolescent women particularly I think there was a I mean they're quite titillating Yeah And there's a bit of a sort of rites of passage perhaps for people of a certain generation I'm sure it still happens now actually You discover these books on your mum's shelf And Jackie Collins And Jackie Collins yeah Read them all They're a little bit saucy A little bit rude Yeah yeah yeah But also they have great characters and great stories and they kind of they reel you in I think So she knew the book anyway and I read the script and I was about it was like nothing I'd really read before it was it tonally I didn't quite get it I couldn't quite imagine what it would be and sometimes I you know Georgia will say what's that script like and sometimes I'll go will you have a look because I'm not I'm not sure that I quite get it and she read this and went you've got you are doing this there was absolutely no debate about it I went really I was I didn't think it was quite mean she went no there is no question there is no debate you're going to do this it's the most fun most exciting most brilliant thing I've read well the great thing I guess about Jilly Cooper is like you've said the storylines are impeccable there's so much drama and fun and they're hilarious without trying too hard there's a lot of humour in her books I think they're quite what's interesting about this of course is Jilly is still very much with us she's very vibrant and dynamic was she on set with you?

9:29oh yeah oh right oh yeah she makes an appearance in a later episode Does she? I wouldn't give it away, but it's a very fun little cameo. And yeah, but she's a lady of a certain age now. So she wrote this in the mid 1980s, which means this is now a period piece. Oh, you can't say that it's a period piece. Is it really? Are we at that age where our actual lives are a period piece? It absolutely is. And the act of filming it is, you know, you're having to watch every frame has to be checked for accuracy, for historical accuracy. you're getting every vehicle has to be supplied by a specialist company all the clothes all that stuff because the 80s are quite a long time ago now yeah but in my head they're like two years ago it's terrifying it's because none of us are quite as old as we think we are this is the problem it's terrifying and because I you know I was I was born in 71 so I was a teenager in the 80s that still feels relatively recent to me and there were lots of things during the filming of it you're going to go I recognise that I remember this and then Now and again, there's a point where there was an ambulance on set and it was a genuine 80s ambulance.

10:36It looked like something from the war. Wow. Moments of that, you realised, oh, this is, it's 40 years ago. Yeah. It's not recent anymore. I love that element of watching it back. There was some footage where I'm thinking, was it real footage? It was like a bit of sort of street footage. And I was like, that looked like genuine 80s footage. I don't know if it was. I don't think there is any genuine footage in it. I mean, there's things like the genuine Concord, because Concord exists in a museum and they let us go in and film on it. Really? So we're in the actual Concord for the scene in Concord.

11:06That's so cool. Which is great. It was quite pokey, turns out. Were you ever on it in real life? God, no. No. No, no. Me neither. My wife was, of course. But she was tiny at the time. Oh, I remember them flying overhead. You'd all run outside into the garden and look up and hear. It was amazing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow. Oh, well, it's brilliant. I absolutely loved watching episode one. You play Lord Tony Baddingham. Tell us about Lord Tony Baddingham. Lord Tony Baddingham. He's, in some ways, I suppose he's the villain of the piece. Not that he sees it that way. But he is, I mean, none of them are, they're sort of all villains in a way.

11:44They're all monstrous individuals. He owns a television station, Carinium Television. This is back in the days when ITV wasn't one homogenous thing. It was split into regional television stations, which all fed into the main ITVs. You had London Weekend Television. You had Granada in north of England. You had Tynetees. You had Anglia. So it's a fictional version of one of them. And there used to be a great competition for these franchise rights. And this sort of takes place over franchise renewal time. So Tony Baringham is the... Is he crooked? Probably a little bit. He certainly... He runs this station...

12:23Well, I don't know that he's interested in the art, but he's certainly interested in the power he's certainly interested in the status that it gives him and his main competitor in life and as the series goes on in in television is Rupert Campbell Black who is this sort of superstar MP he's a kind of I mean we do not have an equivalent these days he's a sort of sexy roguish awful but all everyone wants to be him the men want to be him the women and want to be with him. That kind of a character played by Alex Hassel with great swagger and charm. You know, he sort of takes his shirt off and everyone melts.

12:59He's that kind of a character. And Tony doesn't have that natural charm. Neither does Tony have, and of course in the world of a Jilly Cooper novel, this is very important, neither does Tony have the class. Tony's from a grammar school. He didn't go to school. He doesn't have that, the blue blood in his veins. And that in Tony's world is very painful to him. Yeah. It's something that he can never quite be at the top table. And that's something that he spent his life trying to rectify. Yeah, you can sense that insecurity in him, which is usually the driving force for most bad behaviour. Yes. Insecurity in people.

13:33And I loved sensing that in him. The cast, as you've mentioned, is incredible. You've just got so many great people in this cast. Danny Dyer. Danny's brilliant. You've got Aidan Turner, Nafessa Williams. I mean, it's an all-star cast. What's the difference between working with a TV cast to a theatre cast? Because I'm imagining there is more close-knit in theatre because you are all sort of lumped together. Do you get that sort of sense there's a difference between the two? Sometimes you do. It sort of depends. Obviously, yeah, you're right with a theatre show, you all turn up every night at the theatre and you're all there together.

14:10And even if you're not in scenes with people, you are backstage with them. You're part of this little group. When you're filming something, it's not necessarily the case because you only turn up for the scenes you're in, obviously. So there'll be some jobs. There'll be other characters you never meet. And you can sometimes meet them at the press launch for the first time. This was a bit of an amalgam in a way because it's quite a tight ensemble. There's a lot of characters, but we're all in it a lot with each other. So there was a real sense of camaraderie about it. It's a really joyous bunch of people, partly by chance, partly because I know that the producers sort of set out.

14:48They did a lot of due diligence checking people out. Producers and directors always say that, oh, no, we're only going to assemble nice people. It was genuinely true on this. And there was a lot of checking people out, phoning people up. You worked with this person once before. Oh, that's good. Yeah, they did a lot of that. And it really, really shows. I did not know that that sort of thing happened. You just see it. It happens more and more. I think people are a bit fed up of bad behaviour. God, yeah. Well, it's just not acceptable. There's not really any excuse for it. There's no excuse for it.

15:20And also, I think you watch a show like The Rivals and you can sense that joy, that everyone's getting on and there's a bit of mischief amongst the cast. You can sort of feel that and you can't buy that stuff. It's got to be genuine. Yeah, and it was a genuinely joyous experience. How brilliant. It could have been awful, I suppose, if there'd been a few personalities that jarred. And not many of us knew each other. I mean, some people had crossed paths with people before. There was a couple of people who maybe worked together a couple of times. I'd worked with Claire Rushbrook once before, but I didn't know her well, you know.

15:52But it just so happened that it was a group of people who just sort of fell in love with each other. How good! It made what could have been a long, difficult job into something that was utterly joyful. How brilliant. I mean, your career has been unbelievably diverse. you have done every end of the spectrum from the rivals to playing Macbeth on stage what do you get from a theatre that you don't get in tv doing a very serious Shakespearean play it's a very different flavour and tone to doing something like the rivals or Doctor Who what do you get from a theatre you can't get in telly I suppose it's just a different it's quite a different job yeah I mean it's they're all pretending to be somebody else but beyond that a sort of live theatre show is a very intense couple of hours every evening where you're trying as a group to kind of create this thing that you suspend in front of an audience and you you have to create this bubble of reality which lasts for a very specific very heightened period of time whereas filming is all is a completely different pace you're you're you do a take which lasts 30 seconds and then you'll stand around for five ten fifteen minutes half an hour they move lights around you do it again but it's just got a very different it's just a completely different situation actually and they have very different pieces very different rhythms and I love that I get to do both I very much enjoy the the variety of that and the way that it one complements the other I think yeah I can imagine and theatre is such a crazy discipline not only is there remembering just swathes of scripts.

17:33I don't know how... I mean, do you have a technique to do that, to get those words in your head? No. No. There's no magic trick. It's just the boring bit. It's just boring. It's just boring. Yeah. And people keep saying, how do you learn your language? Because I think people want there to be a skill to learning what to do. Because it would be very useful if photographic memories were real things. Especially with Shakespearean text, because that's not something that you could off the cuff ad lib if you go off on a tangent by mistake. You've got to stick verbatim to this stuff. Yeah, you do. So there's extra pressure.

18:03A little bit, yes. A little bit, that's true. But the rhythm of it can sort of help as well, as it's in this iambic pentameter, and you can be aware that there's sort of two beats there. Sometimes you'll find yourself slightly losing a specific word and inserting another one that rhythmically works, and you can get away with quite a lot that way, actually. Not a new fandangled word, though. It's got to be something... I mean, if it sounds convincing and you can do it without missing a beat. Or maybe if you roll an R while saying it, then anything is passable as old, isn't it? Yeah. Sounds archaic.

18:41Sounds very archaic. I can imagine that you've done many Shakespeare plays now, that they are very nerve wracking to execute. Just before you're about to start, do the first run or maybe even the press night. What are the nerves like? It does vary show to show. And you can't always tell which are going to be the more terrifying ones. But it is absolutely bum-clenching. Oh, yeah, I bet. Yeah, especially that first time you do it. And some performances that gets easier, some it doesn't. But I don't know that Shakespeare is necessarily more nerve-wracking than something else. I think it depends on the circumstances.

19:19I did a play a couple of years ago called Good, which was a relatively modern play about the Nazis in Germany in the 30s. and there was only three of us in it. Three of us who played a selection of characters and we were on this tiny little stage and we had to come through a bit in the back wall that they then closed behind us and every night we heard it locking. Oh God! We'd come on stage and the lights would go down with the curtains in front of us. The wall was behind us and you'd hear it go clunk. Now going back. And the three of us were, we knew we just had each other for whatever, however long it was.

19:55That's the most terrifying I've ever been in any play and it never got easier. We did 12 weeks and the three of us were absolute rung out dishrags by the end of that. Does it border on anxiety? Oh my borders. It's right there. Oh right, yeah. It's right there. And at its worst you're in the middle of a performance and you're composing the speech you're about to make to the audience about how you have to stop and that you can't go on because it's the fear that your brain will just give up. Yeah. That your brain will just go because it feels so intangible. doesn't it? It feels ephemeral. You can't hold a piece of paper that means you know what comes next.

20:33You just have to trust memory, which is such a nebulous thing to grab hold of, that if you think about that too much, it starts to become a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy. Yeah. If I think about even driving too much, my feet go, wait, what foot's pressing? What pedal hit? You have to almost not think. You have to trust the instinct. It's almost a meditative state that you must get in. Yes, absolutely. And a lot of it is to do with managing that anxiety. And how do you manage that anxiety? Well, I don't really have a single answer to that. And sometimes I feel like I don't. And that play good, which I loved and I'm so proud of.

21:10I'm so glad we did. It's a brilliant piece of writing. And it was a great production with two other actors who I just think are brilliant. So I look back in it very proudly. But the act of going through it was pretty miserable, actually, at times, because it It was every night I thought, I'm going to be in a state of such anxiety every night. And Macbeth, funnily enough, which is the play I've done most recently and we're about to do again, wasn't like that. Wow. I mean, I'm not saying it was without anxiety because it absolutely was. And that's part of, you want enough. Yeah. Because it keeps you on your metal.

21:45And it, you know, it wakens you up and it can actually be quite inspiring sometimes and quite creative, that level of anxiety. but just enough you don't want to be spending your whole time dealing with your own demons because that doesn't feel very productive after a certain point and for some reason that show didn't feel like the one before there's no rhyme or reason I think it's also partly where you are in your own life it's partly what that particular production means to you whether you feel on top of it or it feels on top of you and that again is quite a difficult thing to navigate or to second guess and it doesn't always make sense no I mean I've thought about this a lot because I've absolutely had those moments where I'm like you say writing this speech in my head of what I'm going to say in the middle of presenting something or hosting something on stage and you feel like oh god I my body's my my soul's leaving my body slightly here I need to explain what's going on or why I've stopped or whatever and I haven't luckily ever got to that point but I've been bloody close yeah and I think I've then gone into a bit of self-analysis as to what is the fear what am I actually scared of is it being judged by other people is it being seen as a failure yeah is it not reaching my own potential what is that fear I don't know if I've landed on it personally I wonder if you've thought about that I think well certainly in terms of being doing a play i think because it is that slightly nebulous thing of trusting memory which you can't really i mean you can't sort of take your brain apart and have a look at it like an engine and trust that it's all working you just have to rely on the fact that well it's worked before i hope it will still work now one day it might not i think that's the thing and that that you'll that you'll self-sabotage so much that you'll somehow the idea that you might fuck up and that that will feel sort of game-changing and that once you've gone there you can never quite come back to a place of any kind of safety where you rely on yourself enough yeah I think I think it's that and interestingly with that other play I was talking about when I was doing good I got quite close to thinking oh this isn't fun anymore these the demons are so loud in my head that I don't want to do the do theatre again if this is what it's going to feel like.

24:21So interesting because the reaction would undoubtedly be from any audience certainly for you but I think for most people total empathy and understanding because they would only see the humanness in you rather than you know you're a sort of forming machine but of course it's still extremely uncomfortable to go through but also because also that's your job that's what you're there to do yeah you don't want to um there's a sort of sense that if i were ever to go there once then i could go there again and therefore i mean there's a lot of risk involved isn't there yeah which of course is also partly why you're doing yeah there's an almost sort of tantalizing addiction to feeling that yeah yeah yeah i get that and coming through the other end of it is exhilarating and wonderful when i you know i i look back on these experiences and i'm so glad i did it i'm so proud that i got through it i'm so thrilled by the piece of work we achieved do you think it gets harder as one gets older well i that's what i was beginning to again this is what i was beginning to worry about that maybe i've just that there was the three of us on i don't mean to speak for them but I think we were all pretty of a mind myself and Sharon Elliott that were in this this play with us and we were all sort of of an age we were all going have we just have we just gone over the top now have we peaked is it now just does it now just get worse and more difficult I don't think it's about getting worse I think that when we're younger and you know you started acting at a young age I started in telly very young you are so wonderfully naive yeah and that comes paired beautifully with this self-confidence because you're not worrying about the pitfalls you're just going the sky is the limit let's see where this will take me and I don't think I had any anxiety or panic or concern about my ability on camera for a good 15 years it It didn't cross my mind.

26:16And I could have been absolutely awful some of the time, but I didn't care. I think that naivety serves us so well when we're younger. And as we get older and we start to get the knocks from life and at work, that dilutes slightly. And it's harder to grab hold of. Well, certainly naivety has gone out the window, but just that solid self-belief seems a bit more brittle, would you say? And you've got more to lose. You've got more to lose. You've got more to lose personally. You've got more to lose professionally. you've got and as you do sniff mortality you don't want to let it in I suppose whereas when you're 20 you're just going to live forever you're going to live forever and everything's fine yeah but then I think maybe the awareness of that helps all of us whatever job you're in to perform slightly better because you're not anywhere near complacency and actually the gratitude probably ramps up with the understanding that it's all quite fragile yeah And there is definitely a, if you can get the balance right, so there's just enough fear to keep you sharp, that's exactly what you want.

27:22Because like you say, you don't want to be rolling in complacently. No. And you don't want to be thinking this is easy, ever. No. Because then you stop striving and you stop working. Get bored. Working, yeah. But just keeping it tamed is the real task, I think. It is. It's really tricky. If you're having a time or about where you're lacking in confidence, what would you do to help yourself? Well, I don't know that I've got a good answer to that. I don't know that I've ever figured that out. I've just sort of gone through times when I have been feeling a bit more like that and kind of just pushed on until that recedes maybe I've been lucky that it's never toppled over to the point where it absolutely paralyzed me it has felt like it's come close now and again but I think I've always managed to just stay on the right side of pushing on through until the ship turns enough for you to feel like, oh, I'm a bit more on top of it for a while.

28:30Which is a really interesting answer because it's giving yourself the time to sit in it. I suppose, but yeah. But only just because I don't really know how else to do it. I think that's really cool because I think a lot of the time we are all searching for a quick fix or this one thing we know always works and then often we're let down because it doesn't. And actually what we're all guilty of is not allowing ourselves to just feel the horrible feeling. We're like, I don't like this. What can I do to make it go away? Whereas actually a lot of the time, like you've just said, if you just sit in it for a bit and go, God, this doesn't feel great.

29:08And then the ship turns and you're out the other side. Yeah. And I suppose that's one of the advantages of getting older is that you recognise some of those feelings when they recur and you know that they're not necessarily terminal. Yes. That you can, oh, I felt this panicked before and it ended up being okay. Or it didn't, and it certainly didn't kill me because I'm still here. Yep. So I suppose there's a bit of that, you know, just that thinking. And that can certainly be in those, talking about being on stage, in those very extreme moments when your brain is shouting at you, you're going to have to stop because you don't know what's next and you're going to let everybody down.

29:47And it's about, it's happening now. It's happening now. It's happening now. It's at the end of this scene. When you get to the end of the scene, there's nothing else. I've got nothing. It's gone. It's over. And you start composing the, speak to the audience. And there's a, that's happened enough now. Yeah. That on some level, even though I'm feeling all that panic and the rising horror, I can go, this isn't new. I have been here before. and I was alright but it's not going to be alright this time I love the look into your brain it's not dissimilar to mine and I think you do go, well I certainly go boring, here we go again here it goes again if you can be bored by it it's quite useful you can sort of team it that way it's so boring I get it in equal measures not just in extraordinary work situations because I think stuff like this now, it's just pure enjoyment for me.

30:46I love doing stuff like this. I'm lucky enough that that voice in my head isn't that loud. But if I was to be placed on a TV show that I wasn't comfortable with, oh God, all the voices would be shouting in my head. But I equally get it in really mundane settings like going out for dinner with people or at the school gates or bumping into someone in the street. It can be quite loud then. Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, absolutely. It's not just work stuff. It's like it pops up when you don't want it to. Yeah. So annoying. Yes. Oh, you're doing small talk now and you don't know how to keep it going. Yeah.

31:22Oh, you're going to have to. This is going to stop and it's going to be on you to keep it going and you've got nothing. I hate small talk so much. Oh, my God. Yes, being a normal human is almost more difficult. It's so painful. Yeah. And that's boring. Yeah. And I find myself asking the boring things I don't want other people to ask me about holidays and stuff. I know. But you've got to do a bit of that. You've got to do a bit of that. You've got to. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, God. It's really hard being a human. Oh, God. The market's uncertain. Revenue's tied and hiring on hold. That's why results-driven companies are using Upwork to keep work moving.

32:06Go to Upwork.com today and start hiring proven freelance talent fast. No bulky overhead. No rigid long-term contracts. Just the right expert right when you need them. Work smarter and faster with Upwork. Go to Upwork.com now and find your freelance expert. That's U-P-W-O-R-K.com. Post a job for free and get started today. Hi, this is Knox from the Popcast with Knox and Jamie. And maybe like us at the Popcast, you also know people who have been smokers or vapors. And Zen is the one product it seems like everyone is talking about. Because there are many good reasons to make a change to Zen nicotine pouches.

32:42Reasons like Zen nicotine pouches are still America's number one choice for smoke-free, hands-free nicotine satisfaction. And you can choose between 10 varieties, each variety available in either 3 or 6 milligrams. Check out zen.com slash find to find Zen at a store near you. Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical. What can 160 years of experience teach you about the future? When it comes to protecting what matters, Pacific Life provides life insurance, retirement income, and employee benefits for people and businesses building a more confident tomorrow. Strategies rooted in strength and backed by experience.

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33:36So one thing that I, when I was Googling you. Okay.

33:43Oh, good. Oh, good. All of these facts will be real. So I Googled that your first job was for an anti-smoking commercial that was shown in schools and TV. Oh, interesting. Yeah. My first acting job. Your first acting job. Was that my first actual paid thing? Probably was, actually, yeah. Because I was only 16, I think. That's incredible. I never had a paper or anything before that. That probably was my first actual job. Do you think the excitement of any other job has given you the satisfaction of getting that gig? That's interesting. Yeah, I think it probably has, because I think, like the thing you were talking about earlier, the kind of idealism, the carefreeness of youth meant...

34:30I'm almost more thrilled now that people still want me to do things than I was then, because then you just thought, well, obviously, yeah. Yeah, yeah. This was going to happen at some point. Yeah, of course. And it was only an anti-smoking film for Glasgow City Council. Yeah, but you were being paid. I was being paid, and there was a camera pointing at me, and it was, yeah. And it was an anti-smoking film for a very, I think I was 15 when I did it. Maybe I was 16. I think I was 15. I was a very green 15-year-old who had never been near a cigarette. Classic candidate. Who had to play the bad boy smoker.

35:04Oh, you were the bad boy smoker. It probably remains the worst acting I ever did. But cleverly, I managed to get through a whole day on set, and I think it was just a day, where I had to look like I was really tough and cool. I had a brown, no, I had a black denim jacket. Of course you did. And a green 80s shirt. And I managed to wave the cigarette around, looking like I knew what I was doing with it, and never had to light it. Oh, that's good. Yeah. Your lungs remain intact. I don't know what that says about the director. It was so good. Yeah. I mean, not long after, you were doing all sorts of incredible plays and joining the Royal Shakespeare Company.

35:44Well, I had dramas go in between. And that was, yeah. Yeah, and that was a big, big sort of change for me because I went from someone who didn't know anyone who did acting to being surrounded by people from all different walks of life and a lot of older people as well because people come to drama school often not necessarily as the first thing they do after school. So you have a whole range of people with a whole range of experiences and some have already gone off and done things. And I was so, I mean, I'd done an anti-smoking film for Glasgow City Council, but other than that, I was very sort of fresh-faced to it all.

36:14So that just being amongst people who wanted to do the same thing as me and in many cases had done so much more than I had done and had lived life more than I had done. That was that they were the most formative years for me, those three years of drama school. And do you think having known from a really young age that that's what you wanted to do, you're very focused on that being the dream. When you went to drama school or started with the Royal Shakespeare Company, was it as you had imagined it to be? I don't know that I knew what it was going to be other than I knew I wanted to do it. I mean, it certainly was just such a thrill that I managed to get there.

36:59Because with acting, with lots of things, you know, I suppose with a lot of the creative industries, they're very oversubscribed. And I didn't know people who'd been actors. So I had no precedence for understanding how a career like that might work. I just decided I wanted to do it. And therefore everyone around you went, well, you can't do that. And then statistics would come up, but only 5 % of people who are registered as actors actually make a living at it. It's impossible to ever buy a house. It's impossible to, you know, the people that are successful at it are drops in the ocean of the people who want to do it.

37:37So there was a lot of, one was constantly being fed information that told you you weren't going to be able to do this. So make sure you've also got... Like I ended up going to drama school and did a degree course which would also have allowed me to convert to a teaching degree. Partly because I just kept being told that I wouldn't be able to make a living at it and that I needed to have a proper job somewhere on the horizon. And I suppose I could always be a drama teacher. Did you have one of those career advising sessions at your school? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember having one of those. What did they suggest you do instead?

38:14I don't know that they had a suggestion. I remember they gave me some photocopied sheets that Mr. Bowman, who was also the French teacher. Right. I mean, I don't know why that qualified him to do careers, give careers advice. To work out your destiny. And basically what he seemed to do was go through a folder. I mean, we didn't have the internet in those days. Go through a folder of photocopied sheets and go, oh, I think that says acting on it. Yeah. That was it. I think that was the only one he'd ever handed out. And it didn't really, I don't remember. Didn't chime. particularly changing my life direction no when you um when you notice that switch from okay i'm a jobbing actor and it's all going pretty well here to i'm on to something this is this is now a thing this is not only a career but i'm being recognized in the street and this is life-changing essentially because i think as soon as you put fame into the equation something shifts and it's not necessarily something that you're striving for but it's part and parcel if you're doing well how did that sit with you because I think the strange thing certainly about the fame element especially when you're an actor like for me I'm a presenter formally so it's my personality but you can choose to have a very private life if you're an actor but when fame comes into the equation people then meet you with certain assumptions was there a time when you thought oh wait they see me as this person does that match up with who I know I actually am and there being a bit of a discord between the two I think I did struggle a bit I because yeah I'd been I'd been working away pretty consistently for quite a long time reasonably successfully I was within the industry I was relatively well established and then I got Doctor Who which which is a different level of public recognition.

40:02And I was aware that that would happen. I mean, I'd done some things where occasionally somebody would recognise him, but it's completely different because Doctor Who is public property and it's loved and it's adored and it has a level of attention focused on it from the press, from the public, from everyone, everywhere. it's cross-generational it's it's it crosses the the socio-economic divides it's sort of it gets attention from everywhere in society not everyone loves it but most people know about it so to suddenly be in the center of something like that having never been ubiquitous it was pretty sudden and that was that did take a bit of adjusting because you don't get taught how to do that and you don't get taught how it will feel and I remember being aware of it because it was the sort of job that you get and there's a few months before it starts and for a long time it's a secret so you don't tell anyone and I remember during that time thinking I was doing a play in Edinburgh and I remember there was a there was a bit backstage towards the end every night where I used to stand there going this is the next time I do a play it might be different the next sort of life's about to change and some of that's really exciting but you don't know what it's going to be so you sort of imagine what what will losing one's anonymity feel like and I think before you do and maybe I've got quite a unique experience in some ways because it happened very suddenly I'd been working as an actor my job didn't change but life really did and maybe that gives you a certain perspective as to see what that I think from the outside, one imagines that might be quite empowering.

41:51That sense that, because I've been on the other side of it, when someone walks into a room and everyone notices, there's a sense of, well, that must, you imagine that person must feel very, very powerful, very strong, very confident, very grounded. And then when suddenly you're that person, it's completely the opposite. Not being able to walk into a room anonymously is, it's like your skin's been flayed off it's that you feel terribly insecure very vulnerable very visible and that happened pretty quickly I was very blessed that I went when that when I was on that very specific start of that journey I was working every day with Billy Piper who is a wonderful human being and who had run the gauntlet of being public property since she was a terrifyingly young age and had been through a manner of pretty rough times coming to terms with that by the time I got to know Billy and she was still only 21 or something yeah she had lived four of those lives and was a great person to just not dispense advice or anything like that that's not how Billy would be but just to sort of hold your hand and just kind of be there and to and to acknowledge what you were going through and to understand it so you could have a shorthand about when things were difficult and what might be a good way into a situation in purely practical terms and in more sort of emotional terms, I suppose.

43:22So that was really helpful. Without Billy there, if I'd been doing it absolutely kind of on my own, I think I'd have struggled even more than I did. But it was difficult and it definitely cost me a bit. And it definitely, I had to go and get a bit of help with a bit of it after a while, because it just, I think you just need to understand what that, because you, this is an obvious pat thing to say, but you don't change. No. But everyone's attitude to you does change. And that takes a bit getting used to. Well, it is still this sort of strange myth fame, the whole thing. And you see, you see how people react around it and extremely famous people.

44:05sort of people lose their minds a bit and don't quite know how to act or if they can just be themselves around the famous person or whatever and yeah inside all of that is just a regular human yeah with all sorts of thoughts and demons and things going on in their head so it is a strange thing when you are experiencing that having witnessed it and we're all you know i was older too i was yeah in my 30s in my mid-30s i mean who knows what that's like if you're 22 i I mean, you were very young. I was. I was very young. And I think I still, you know, I still find it completely absurd and weird. And, you know, I can go about and not be recognised and it's great.

44:42As soon as I open my bloody mouth, it's usually the moment where heads turn and like, wait, I know your voice. Like, oh, I should just whispered. But it's a strange thing. And I think there is still this myth because we see it on reality shows constantly that there might be some pot of gold at the end of this fame rainbow where you go, oh now I feel complete now I feel confident and actually none of that stuff happens you just get recognized a lot and depending on your mood that day it can be pleasant you can be indifferent about it or it can feel awful if you're in a bad headspace so it's a really it's a really complex subject and one I think we don't look at enough because we just go you know oh fame's great look look at all the people out here who are famous and shiny and how wonderful it all looks and it's obviously not the case it's it's a fascinating subject when we look at doctor who specifically you were a whovian practically from birth you know you love doctor who from such a young age it's your first tv memory yeah is watching doctor who and i've heard people quiz you about this sort of fate and destiny element to things but i wonder if a lot of it is real knuckle-down manifesting.

45:55Because you were imbibing that show and thinking about it with such fondness that you attract... And you know, you didn't even just attract it in in terms of you became Doctor Who. Your father-in-law was Doctor Who. Yeah, I know. Your wife's been in Doctor Who. Like, your life is so Doctor Who-ish, it's outrageous. I feel like you've... I used to watch Live and Kicking and just be like, I'm in love with Zoe Ball. I don't know what to do. And I watched it unlike other kids. I wasn't just going, oh, this is fun. I was studying it. I was obsessed by it. And I think that has helped me bring it into existence in my life.

46:34Yeah. How do you feel about manifesting? I don't. I suppose I'm instinctively sceptical that it's a thing. But I take your point in this particular set of circumstances. answers. I don't know. I mean, I certainly, yes, I was obsessed with Doctor Who. I loved it more than I loved anything else. And it was a huge influence on me wanting to become an actor. And just probably when I was a kid, I thought, yeah, and I will one day I'll play that part specifically. That's where I'll end up. That would be great. But then the idea of becoming an actor matured along with me then Doctor Who wasn't on the telly anymore so it wasn't something I was actively thinking about so then after that it was I suppose a series of unlikely coincidences which led to I think there's something I wonder actually if there's something about Doctor Who specifically something about and this this is not something I have a a particular answer for but it's interesting how many people who now work on Doctor Who were Doctor Who fans like me how many people it whether it just sets a particular there's something about the imagination of the idea that sets a particular fire alight in a particular strain of creative people because Russell T Davis is that's how he grew up and now he runs a show Stephen Moffat who was the other showrunner Chris Chibnall who was the third showrunner they have all they're all massive massive Doctor Who fans probably bigger than me growing up they were all inspired to write by doctor who there's a lot of people who work on the visual effects who were inspired into that side of the industry by doctor who a large number of actors and often actors slash writers like mark gatis massive massive i love him yeah so maybe there's just something about that particular show that means when that generation grew up they were interested in making either shows like that or indeed in Russell's case, that show.

48:41And maybe there's something about my acting that is inspired by that character. Because I, you know, I wanted to be that. There's something that that character is so brilliant. And he's sort of, he's heroic, he's clever, he's funny. He's got all the best lines. He thinks quicker than anyone else. And he's not a jock. And that was something that as a kid meant so much to me because I had glasses that were sellotaped up at the leg. I was not sporty. I was not the strong one I was quite fast I could run fast and again the Doctor tends to run fast so there were a lot of bits I could get I could glom onto that character and think oh I could be the hero of this story even though there's nothing about me that feels remotely heroic but there's something to aspire to in being clever brilliant not the strongest not the one who can beat people up because that was never me and who also comes from a place of it's a sort of rather beautiful character it comes from a place of understanding and benevolence and pacifism and tolerance and all those things which just seem to make sense so now the fact that I married another doctor's daughter you manifested this shit I'm sorry you can't get around this one you just did maybe she just understood something about me but I would but well I suppose I only met her because I was on Doctor Who and she got cast on Doctor Who and on some the way was the she was definitely attractive to the production team because she was the doctor's daughter yeah she played a character who was the doctor's daughter which had a lovely synergy to it you know to find a brilliant actress who also was that thing there was a you know she made perfect sense for it have you spent a great lengths of time talking to your father-in-law about Doctor Who?

50:35It does always come up. Yeah, you can't not really, can it? Because it's one of those, you know, he played the part when I was 11. Yeah. And it's still a huge part of his life. Because, like I was saying earlier, it's one of those shows that just attracts an attention. Because it's beloved, and that's lovely. It's so humbling to be in the middle of that. Sometimes it's overwhelming. But it's mostly a lovely thing to be associated with. And it doesn't go away because people won't let it go away. And because you don't want it to. because what a lovely thing to be part of. Oh, it's magic. It's so magic.

51:07I mean, everything we've talked about over this length of time, you're juggling alongside five kids. Yes. And it was quite funny because when I was doing my research, I listened to Desert Island Discs. I mentioned this to you last week. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Kirsty said, and I hadn't checked the year, but Kirsty said, and do you want children? I was like, oh, my God. Yeah. This is when he had no kids. And I can't imagine that. You have a house with, I mean, one of them is an adult, but you've got a lot of people in that house. Do you get overwhelmed? How do you find time? Oh, it's a lot. It's a lot.

51:37Yeah, I mean, five kids is a lot. You know, and they're the full age range. Yeah. 22 all the way down to four. So it's never a quiet house. No. And it's never not busy. There's always someone to be taken somewhere or picked up or dropped off or there's people around others. And that can be wonderful and life-affirming and joyous. and it can be a massive headache as well. But they're all great. And I think they're all brilliant and they're all fascinating. And when they start being themselves, hang on, that's not, I have no agency over this thought you just had. What? I know, isn't that the most crazy mode of parenthood?

52:19Where you go, oh, you're a little human being who just turned up like that. Yeah. I thought that I was telling you how to be a human. Yeah, quite. But we're not. And they teach you how they are going to be. I love it. and who they are. And you have to learn to just let them be. All that stuff is a... I mean, it's wonderful. It's a joy. It's a lot. It's a lot. I'd love to sleep past 6am. It's never going to happen. I mean, you've got years till that happens. Surely it's going to happen eventually. Doesn't it happen eventually? David, no, no. Because of course... We've still got two that are waking up at 6am every day.

52:50Yeah, of course you have. And then by the time they're not, the older two will be coming in at 3 in the morning and waking you up. So we're screwed forever. You have to accept this now. Yeah. That we are screwed for life. People keep saying it must be great because they must start to babysit each other. And you went, I wish that happened. No, no, no. I don't feel like that's happening at all. No, no, no, no. That's a pipe dream, I'm afraid. It's not a thing. Turns out, they're my responsibility. Exactly. We have to deal with the hard work. No, it's a mad juggle. It's a mad juggle, but it's a beautiful juggle.

53:21And I think it helps each part of life, work versus the kids, balances the other out. And it's mental. It does, yeah. But it helps both sides. And overbalances the other as well. I mean, that's the thing. Sometimes when it works, it's wonderful. But it also means the juggling is never easy. Never easy. Never feel like you've got it right. No. And it's a sort of constant churn as well as a constant delight. Yeah. No, you're absolutely right. Right. I mean, we were talking last week to sort of break the fourth wall here in podcast land. We were talking about what to talk about today. Yes. And it's almost harder.

54:00This is getting very meta. Yeah, so meta. My head's going to explode. But it's almost harder to interview someone when you know them. Yeah. Because there's almost sort of the lines are more blurry and the boundaries aren't in place. It may be worth pointing out. We know each other sort of domestically, don't we? Yes. Rather than professionally. Not work-wise, no. No. We've worked together once. We did know what a children and need thing was. Children and need thing. But our kids are mates. I think I was on your radio show once. And you've been on my radio show years ago, yes. A million years ago.

54:28A million years ago, yeah. But actually, we... We only knew each other. From like school runs. Yeah. Like picking kids up from houses. Yeah, exactly. Like in a lovely... And like, here's my tortoise in the garden. This sort of thing. So it's almost a stranger place. And I've had other people that I know on the podcast. But I wanted to sort of get clear on the boundaries. I know. to get technical and go right well what are you comfy with and what are you not comfy with and one thing that i put up for grabs is do we talk about you being part of the lgbtq plus community allegiance like being an ally being a supportive person for that community and that is something where you know maybe a subject where you were like i don't know i'm not sure if i don't want to talk about or not because of course being a person in the public eye anything you talk about or vehemently support will then be scrutinised and dissected.

55:19And that is tricky, especially when it's something that you really passionately believe in. It's a tricky one. It is really tricky because what I'm very aware of, I don't enjoy being controversial. I don't enjoy that feeling of being in the centre of anything that feels antagonistic or difficult. And yet sometimes, well, the bar for controversialness is so low these days because everything is so polarized and and and sometimes it feels like stating the bleeding obvious it somehow it can be disagreed with that's what i find very difficult not to get into controversial waters when i feel like i'm just saying well obviously we everyone has the right to express who they are i get very angry that people should suggest otherwise but I'm always conflicted because I as an actor it's not really my job if I really want to get political I should run for parliament and I'm not about to do that if I you know if I really want to change the world I could probably go off and do something about it and you know I pull faces for a living and that's I'm not planning on changing that anytime soon but there is power in having a public platform which I guess is the conflict because you can shift the dial by just being you it so it would seem yeah yeah and and you know there's sometimes where you're gonna think well i'm i am gonna say that because yeah you you are afforded a louder voice just because people know who you are but i i do always i'm always cagey about overusing that voice or venturing into areas where how am I trying to put this I don't want to start telling people how to think because I could do something else does that make sense I could run for parliament I could you know you don't need to listen to me because I'm an actor because you liked me in a show doesn't doesn't give me the right to tell you how to think but sometimes knowing your voice helps a community that is often struggling is a beautiful thing.

57:37Certainly in terms of anything I say in support of the LGBTQ community, it just feels like common sense to me. And I find it ludicrous how some of those conversations have been weaponised and turned into an element of the culture wars, especially when I see people doing it for what appear to me to be disingenuous reasons especially when it's weaponized politically to make an already marginalized group more marginalized for the sake of someone's poll numbers I think is disgusting and I think that needs to be countered and as long as you're not hurting anybody else why should anyone else have a say of how you live your life yeah i don't get it i get that it's i i sense that conflict inside because you want to support and you want to be there and you and you obviously want to we all do we want to see a lovely equal society where everyone's safe and feels accepted but you can't step into that arena without fear because as you've said you know the landscape at the moment for saying anything is really treacherous yeah so you know you're possibly walking into potential stress for yourself yeah so yeah you put yourself on the line to do so yeah i think though especially when people are punching down you just think well it's not going to cost me i'll be okay i'm a sort of white middle-aged pretty privileged bloke who doesn't have to run some quite scary gamuts here so i think there are times when it's just you just have to say something yeah yeah without a doubt without a doubt well look it's been an absolute joy to talk to you today David well it's been fun to be in this this particular dynamic for a change I know so we're not talking about school assemblies we haven't mentioned an assembly or any homework it's outrageous or anything any event we're supposed to be attending that we've forgotten about oh I can't it's bringing me up in time thinking about it god almighty no it's been so brilliant and as I said I can't wait to see episode two of The Rivals.

1:00:08It's going to just bring me so much joy and escapism. I'm here for it. I think it is quite a joyous show. It is. Very. Which is interesting because none of the characters are very joyous. It's just the best. They're full of misery and torture. But then we can look at other people's misery and feel good about ourselves. Yeah. And that's why we like it. So well done on The Rivals. It's bloody brilliant. Thank you very much. And thank you, David Tennant. Thank you, Farron. The Rivals is out on Disney Plus on October the 18th. You are going to love it. Well, we mentioned Jason Donovan or Jace during that chat.

1:00:49I still shudder when I think about that. I actually got to record a live podcast with him at the Happy Place Festival in Chiswick, where I most definitely called him Jason. So if you haven't listened to that episode already, then do go back because it's a real good one. We also talked about what a bloody good egg Billy Piper is. there are a couple of episodes with her in the back catalogue too. They are gorgeous ones to listen to. Now look, we're back next week with one of my favourite conversations from this year's Happy Place Festival at Tatton Park. But until then, a massive thanks again to David, to the producer Anushka Tate at Happy Place Studios, and to you.

1:01:24I bloody love you.

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