Davina McCall: “What if I don’t make it?” Embracing life after a brain tumour

0:00Hello, I'm Fern Cotton and this is Happy Place, the show that works towards self-acceptance. Now we're heading back to the Happy Place Festival in Gunnersbury Park today with Davina McCall. I hated myself when I got clean. I mean I really hated myself. I had let myself down. I had done things I said I would never do and my sponsor said to me, the next time I saw her she gave me a mirror, picked it up two nights later or something and I looked at it and I said I like you and then I couldn't stop crying because it wasn't true. And I was like, how did I get here? But I started realising that you can like yourself warts and all.

0:47Oh, I've got goosebumps even thinking back to this. This was such a special one for me to do at the festival. I cannot tell you. Davina is one of the most special people that's come into my life. Oh, I could have a cry thinking about it. she we've known each other for a long time and we've sort of increasingly become closer and closer but she's always been there for me in just the most beautiful way and you know if you watch Davina on tv if you have like me watched her since the days of street mate a thousand years ago you'd hope that she's as enthusiastic and just embracing of everyone and open-hearted you'd hope she was all of those things in real life.

1:36Let me tell you, she's that and more. And you watch her walk around like backstage at the festival. She had so much time for everybody talking to every team member, every festival reveler that wanted a quick hug and to say hi, every other person that was on the talk stage. She was just so up for giving them time. And when she talks to you, she really talks to you like she looks in your eyes. She's there with you completely present. She's just a very, very special person. And obviously we've become even closer in the last six months, I'd say, because we've both been through health scares. And the gratitude I have for that woman during that time, I can't even tell you.

2:20So I think you're going to get to hear a different side of Davina today, a really personal side. So the things we chat about, we talk about our health scares. We both had a tumour removed within a month of each other. I was so fucking weird. Honestly, it was just the strangest thing. She had told me about hers. And then four weeks later, I found out about mine. It was mad. We also talk about her stepmum and how close she is to her stepmum and also her birth mum and the treacherous relationship that she had at times with her. But actually, she talks about her mum with such love and humour. It's a really beautiful part of the chat.

2:57We talk about NA and we talk about getting bolder with age and having older role models. I mean, that's just like bits of it. There's so much to this chat. I urge you to listen. Oh, and also we were actually lucky this year, no major festival disasters across the weekend, but we did have our first one and only during this chat.

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5:27This chat with Davina was recorded live at the Happy Place Festival in Gunnersbury Park. Now, do you want to join us at Tatton Park in just a couple of weeks' time? We're going to be doing it all over again at the end of August. You could be listening in on a live podcast just like this one. And you can get involved with loads of other gorgeous workshops, everything from yoga to breathwork to crafting both our Saturday and weekend tickets are now sold out but there are limited tickets remaining for Sunday the 31st of August so get your tickets now at happyplacefestival.com all right let's do it and you join us having the biggest hug when we met on stage

6:34A Divina hug is a different flavour. Yeah, but I've got goosebumps. That literally gave me... That was such a good one. That was like... You know when you can tell I was transferring information? I got it. I got it. I felt it. I got yours. Oh. Mine was just going, I love you. Yeah, so was mine. Yeah. Davina hug is just something special. Hi, everyone. Davina! We're so happy to have you at the Happy Place Festival. I can't even tell you. It's a joy. Davina actually was a guest at our first ever mini, mini, mini pop-up Happy Place Festival in 2018. It was in an old sort of abandoned photography studio.

7:14We were giving it a go and Davina so kindly came along. But now we're actually doing it and you helped us do this. So thank you. I'm so grateful you're here. And also your amazing partner, Michael, did a hair demo earlier, which went down an absolute treat. It was amazing. I was just saying to you earlier what a joy it is to be at something that he's doing and cheerlead him on from the front row. Yeah, there he is. Yay! Hey, Michael! Gorgeous! Yay! Yes! Do you know what's funny? I don't know if I'd be able to do this if I didn't know you were here. Like, that's quite sad, isn't it? It's like...

7:53No, it's so lovely. Yeah, you are. He's always there with a hairbrush in hand. ready for a blow dry look I'm so grateful you're here and also shush you shut up I just got that I was so slow you filthy minds well look we've already done this backstage but I want to say a massive thank you for just being a bloody great mate yeah because you are the best I've got to say we fell in love I think really on a sport relief challenge oh god Where we cycled from... John O 'Groats. John O 'Groats to Land's End. Yeah, it was awful. I loved it. I loved it. Fern didn't love it so much. I absolutely hated it.

8:36But we slept on bunks together opposite each other on a bus. And I fell in love with you over four days of, like, us going through one of the hardest things you've ever, ever done. Who knew? I was like, oh, this is cute, like a bike ride. Patrol. It was so hard. And then since then, I think, I've been learning more and more about you, but really in the last year we've supersized. We really have. Oh, my God. And there's been so many reasons why. Yeah. We had a really weird end of last year. We did. Both you and I. Yeah. And I remember I'd come on to be a guest on Begin Again, your fucking great podcast.

9:11And you had said to me, I've got this health thing going on. And obviously it's shocking and you think, I want to be there for my friend. And we talked about it on the phone afterwards. And then I think I called you four weeks later and went, oh, I've got a tumour too. It was so weird. So weird. But I guess in a weird sort of way, sometimes I feel like there are other powers at play. And I was thinking, got it. I can empathise with you. Empathy is such a powerful emotion, I think. And it's one thing to say, oh, I'm really sorry. But you know somebody's been through something or is going through something.

9:50and all the fear that comes around that word, tumour and things. And that we could, I mean, I've got goosebumps literally talking about it, that we understood each other and we were in a place where we could really, it felt like an awful but life-saving. Yeah. The timing was weird. It was wild. And I spoke to you a hell of a lot. And I spoke to you when I was in hospital on the phone and you were just so amazing with not even advice, just sort of being there and listening and just knowing you were there was amazing. I feel the same way about you. I mean, it was just great to have you during that time.

10:26How did you, I don't know if you did mitigate it, but how did you mitigate the fear around that word and knowing with an operation like that, there is risk? How did you cope through the sort of the lead up to it? I think quite a big thing that I did, because I actually found out that I had a, they said it was a benign brain tumour. So really for four months, I was like, well benign that's fine right like yeah i don't need to do anything about it i'll just leave it there i've had it since i was born you know i was it in fact it started growing in my brain when i was in my mum's tummy so i was like oh i'm fine um so i didn't really think about it for four months then when i went to see the doctor this was in august 2023 i went to see a neurosurgeon in january and then i went to see another neurosurgeon to have a talk with them to go hang on a minute I just need to get a second opinion because they were kind of saying oh it's quite big we think you should get it removed and I was like what I have brain surgery and I don't have any symptoms why would I do that that seems completely mad it's behind and then I got a third opinion um and then I got a fourth opinion just to be sure brain surgery are we absolutely sure um but the third opinion was the guy I was like you're taking it out I loved him he was absolutely brilliant Michael and I sat we had a FaceTime with him I was like you're the man but the fourth opinion I phoned somebody in America and I said you are absolutely not going to operate on me ever but please would you just give me an honest opinion because I think if someone thinks they're going to operate on you they can't say you have to have this operation yeah in case it goes wrong so I ended up going you're not going to operate on me tell me what to do and I was at The Masked Singer, it was October last year.

12:12I was having the operation in November, and I'm in the courtyard outside the cabins, walking around on the phone to this woman in America. I'm going, so what do you think? What do you think? And she was going, okay, it's a big tumor. And I was like, okay, it's a big tumor. Right, how big? And she goes, it can't grow anymore, or you will get hydrocephalus, which is water on the brain, and you'll go into a coma. Like if you were on a plane, you'd have to do emergency landing. I was like, oh, God, okay, that was rad. Then she goes, I love your surgeon. He's amazing. I was like, yes, win, one win.

12:44And then she said, you absolutely have to get it taken out. Like it's got to go now. And I'm amazed. Are you sure you haven't got any symptoms? Sorry, this is a really long answer, but very quickly. Twice in the two years before my operation, I looked at Michael and I went, he's always thinking. He's always moving and talking and thinking and processing things. And I said, do you always think? And he went, always. I'm always thinking. And I thought to myself, I'm sure I used to do that. But I'd been doing bits of meditation. Thank you, fan. Inspired me. Fans inspired me. And I thought, oh, I'm just really present.

13:25But it turns out, after I'd had the operation, I woke up. And I didn't know what country I was in. I didn't know, are you OK, darling? Are you sure? Oh, is the bench broken? Oh, that's fun. Are you all right? I'll get you a little bean bag. Oh, no, look, it's fixable. It's fixable. We've got this. Maybe go on the floor. Maybe go on the floor. Sit on the floor. That's our only disaster, this festival so far. So, OK, not bad going. I was going to like going into... I went into full rescue mode then. I went into mum mode. Hang on, I've got some plasters in my bag. So afterwards, I didn't know what country I was in.

14:06I didn't know I'd had an operation. I kept saying to Michael, listen, I need to get back from America. I was in London. I need to get back from America because I've got to have an operation tomorrow. And he was like, you've had the operation. Two minutes later, I've got to have an operation tomorrow. We need to get back. It was like mad. But what I was aware of was a noise in my head. And I was like, oh, my God, this noise. Oh, my God. Do you know what it was? Thoughts. Wow. And I realised that I hadn't had that. Like I hadn't just been thinking. So now, every morning I wake up and I'm like, I wonder why the grass is green.

14:42What are the trees over there? Why does the moon and the sun come up at the same time? How does that happen? It's all quite deep. Quite deep shit. Because I do think of really weird, random things. Yeah, but that's also the tumour was preventing you from having just random thoughts. Yes. That's extraordinary. I don't know that. No. Now too many, maybe. Too many. Yeah. Thank God for him. Michael, why do you think the sun and the moon comes up? He's loving it. He answered it for me. He knows. He actually knew. He knows everything. He's the oracle. Yeah, I paged the oracle. I also... The hot oracle.

15:15The hot oracle. Yeah. As you were walking, doing that mime of you on the phone, I was imagining like a giant piranha walking past and someone else with a big head of a bowl of spaghetti on. And the weirdest thing was, because it was a month away from the operation, that phone call although it was hard one to hear i was relieved has anybody seen fleabag yeah the bit in fleabag where she goes just tell me what to do yeah i was there i really needed someone to tell me should i have this operation or am i mad tell me what to do yeah and she did and the relief i felt do you know what happened sorry i'll shut up in a minute i i went back into the porter cabin and somebody from ITV came out that I don't know very well but he's like a sort of boss guy and he looked at me yeah he was no but he was really important I know his name now because he literally changed my life Joe okay Joe Mace he comes out I know Joe Mace yeah he said are you okay I think he could see I'd been crying and I said yeah yeah I'm just relieved I've just had some good news nobody knew at that point that I had a brain tumor I said I'm just relieved because you know it's like I said I've got a brain tumor he was like okay and he gave me a big hug like an amazing hug and then he said let's let's go talk about it somewhere private turns out that one of his family had had a brain tumor she'd had it operated on she was fine and we sat down we had a huge talk about all the feelings around it but can you imagine of all the people that I bump into after having that moment was him.

16:55And he knew exactly what to say to me. And these are the little things that happened to me to help me prepare. I was gifted things along the way. And I thought, I need to get my body. So I exercised a lot before the operation. I mean, I exercise, you know me. Always in a legging. I exercised a lot all the time. Always got a dumbbell on the go. and um and then i thought i need to get my brain in the right place and that was to a place where i could be calm yeah and what did i need to do to do that were my kids gonna sorry were my kids gonna be okay yeah if i didn't make it like that's all i really cared about i knew michael michael's like a whole person michael's michael but i was really worried about my kids so I went forensic on thinking about my children and where they were at in their life what stage they were at you know you're only as happy as your unhappiest child right and um I I came to a realization after about six months of like cross-examining them about their life and telling them the whole time how much I've loved my life my eldest daughter kept caught on she was like you are not dying yeah I was like no no no and um and I realized that they would be great they'd miss me you know and I want to be with them but they would be okay and I felt like I could go to sleep on the operating table and know that they were all here to help me but I can let go of the outcome and it was the best gift I I am not afraid of dying You still feel that way?

18:39I am not afraid of dying anymore. And it was the biggest journey of my life from August 23 to November 24 was an amazing time where something changed. and begin again, the podcast, I started to help other people on their journey of living a life that they love enough to feel on their deathbed, whenever that may be, that I have no regrets. I have lived the life I wanted and I'm not lying there going, I wish I'd done that thing. I wish I'd done that job. I wish I'd not stayed in this relationship. I wish I'd you know all of those I haven't lived the life I want and begin again is about just begin again yeah and live the life you want you know I mean it's a it's a really amazing place to get to a not being scared of dying but I think having no regrets and feeling like you are living fully in the life you want to be in and I think it's quite rare and I think with a health scare there'll be plenty of people here I've spoke to many of you this weekend who have been in that position they've had a big health scare and it does wake you up to that that we've not got all the time in the world that we haven't got time to waste i um i took the after i uh got better and i came up to london and i started taking the tube again and i remember sitting on the tube and looking at everybody and i nearly turned into the weirdo that goes around the down the tube going smile honestly this is life you're alive this is amazing we're on a tube and it gets us through London much quicker than a car.

20:18This is great. You're all right. This is going to be amazing. Do something brilliant today. You're going to see a friend. You're seeing a friend. Yes. Like, I literally wanted to do that. I thought, no, don't do that. Oh, I wish you had. You will scare people. Oh, but it would have gone viral on Instagram and it would have been so cool. Oh, I love that. But I get it. I get it. You know, you have a scare and it's like, it's a wake-up call and we're lucky. We're so lucky. You know, we had a wake-up call and we're here. Yeah. It's amazing. It's a gift. I mean, one of the most important things when you're going through anything, whether it's a health scare or any challenging adversity, something you're facing, are the people around you.

21:03I think you've certainly realised that is the most important thing, actually, in life, are the people around you. And obviously, you've got Michael, you've got your children, your step-mum was also, oh, I've got you and you've got me. And your step-mom was so amazing as well in your recovery period. Well, your mom. You call her mom. I call her mom, but officially she's my step-mom. But I don't know if anybody here has had a step-mom when they were growing up. But I spent my childhood... My mom, my birth mother, was like, fucking amazing. I mean, you guys, you would have loved her. You, Michael, would have really loved her.

21:40She was gorgeous, French, exotic, mad, risk taker, exciting to be around, chaotic, someone that's exciting. But like, I just wanted Angela Lansbury. I wanted someone really with sensible shoes. This woman was a flasher. She used to wear coats and flash people in the street. she was she used to arrest people she used to do citizens arrests you know it was it was madness and she I was I was in the back of a car once while she drove it across a cricket pitch while the match was on so she was but you know like but fun yeah yeah yeah but I I spent my life trying to get her to mother me like thinking I'll go back and she'll change and something will happen and she will see me in a different light and she will want to mother me.

22:38And it never happened. But my step-mom became my step-mom when I was six. And she was, oh God, Fern. She was just there all the time, solid, dependable, loving, non-judgmental. And she is a very different person. She's very straight-laced. She loved my dad. My dad was quite a difficult person, but I would never have said that about him while he was alive. My granny was quite a difficult person and my mum married into this family and her life was quite difficult but I never saw that or understood that. And in the last year and a half, we have talked a lot. Have you? And it started with her apologising for asking me to leave home when I was 19.

23:27She said, you know, I think we are moving into a flat. My dad had had a change of circumstances. They were moving into the flat. They were going to get three beds and they needed to rent one of the bedrooms out to make some money from businessmen that were coming over to learn English. And I got that and I got looped and I found a room to rent in a flat in Latimer Road. And I was I had the I'm so pleased she did that. And throughout my life, I've said the best thing my mum did for me was ask me to leave home at 19 because I had to stand on my own two feet. I had to become financially independent.

24:03And I did. But did you feel resentful at the time? Not at all. But she had obviously carried it. And I think this operation was coming and she felt she needed to clear the air with a few things. Wow. And for her to say that to me and realise that I'd never held that against her. I don't know if this has ever happened to you guys, but whether you've apologised to somebody for something you did 15 years ago, 20 years ago, and it's bothered you all that time. And then they go, best feeling. Yeah, but they go, I haven't thought about it. Yeah. I haven't thought about it. And you think, well, I've been fucking, sorry, I've been carrying this on my own.

24:45Like why? And I had John Tickle from Big Brother. Do you remember John Tickle from Big Brother? He came up to me 10 years ago and he said, I've got to apologise. And I was like, what for? And he went, I did a panel show and I said something really not nice about you at all on it. And I was like, I didn't know. And he went, I am so sorry. And I said, but I didn't know. You've carried that all your life. Like if there is something that you need to get off your chest and apologise for, do it. Because the chances are, they're not even aware of it. You're carrying it around for someone else. Like let it go.

25:26We're so bad at apologising, aren't we? as well because it is it's so like it is the most awkward thing and it's terrifying because you fear you're going to get rejected in that moment but actually I had this recently where me and a friend had had a bit of a situation and I reached out first I apologized it was kind of a two-way situation and after we had that chat we are so much closer we were already close but we're so so close the weight off my shoulders was immense and it's a low level stress that you try and ignore but it's there but that's so big of your mum to do that well and she and I then it broke something in our circle of in our relationship and it and it mended something yeah and she and I so before my operation my mum laughs at me because I love wearing sexy clothes or sexy 90s or sexy dressing gowns she's always like oh my god look at that and I used to take it as an insult so I was reading her wrong intention.

26:27I was reading her intention wrong. I thought she was kind of going, oh, you're too sexy or you're just like your mum or something like that. It wasn't that. She's joking with me and she can joke with me because she loves me. And I know she loves me and I really know she loves me now. So she said to me, what night is it you got for hospital? She was panicking. And she started and I was like, do you want to see? And she's like, I don't know, do I? I was like, I'm putting it on, I'm coming down. So I'd actually gone like white company, pyjama, very straight. Very civilised. Very straight. But I was like, but they are shorties.

27:08She was like, I don't want you flashing your brain surgeon, you know. I love it. And it was really, we laughed so much about it. And then we kept revisiting it. And something profound has changed. I'll tell you something else. Michael really helped me see my mum for who she is. And you helped me see her intention. It was like I was blinded to it. It's so hard when you're close to someone, isn't it like that? You can only see the bits that trigger you and make you feel pissed off. It's just perceiving someone differently. Intention is everything. Yeah, it's massive. Somebody can say something nasty to you with a bad intention and it feels nasty.

27:53But then now, knowing that her intention is good, her saying something funny to me that's a bit taking the piss now feels like a loving thing. There's an intimacy to it. And there's an intimacy to it. It's so mad how your perception of something is everything. Yeah. I think it's so important looking at step-parenting as well because it always gets a bad rap. It's not talked about positively. Yeah. And you're so open about that relationship. Yeah. It's massively encouraging for you. Yeah, he's a stepdad. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we both were quite lucky in a way that our kids were quite old when we got together.

28:33But his kids have got a mum and a dad that love them. They don't need another mum. I don't need to step in in that way. I'm just a friend and he's a friend to my kids. And that's worked so well. And rather than me leaping in and trying to be really great, like really fun and, oh, let's go do this. I let them come to me. he let mine come to him and it's been a really nice organic journey so it's a very fulfilling enriching job hugely i've been a step parent for years and years and i love my stepkids and it is a really special relationship

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31:11How do you think, now you've got a bit of distance from your mum passing and having this new iteration of a relationship with your stepmum, when you look back at your childhood and your mum's absence or driving across the cricket pitch, all of those things, what do you feel now? How do you view it? How do you think it's impacted you as an adult? I mean, I wouldn't, again, part of my am I okay to let go of my life has been to kind of examine all of that. And I wouldn't change anything because without sounding arrogant, because it isn't, it's I love myself. Yeah. I have been on a massive life journey and I have been through terrible struggles.

32:05We've been talking a lot about a calamity vitae instead of a curriculum vitae. Because I think like when you go for a job, sod what you learnt at school. Yes. It's like, what have you learned at the University of Life? How many calamities have you been through? Calamity is such a good word. The more you've had, I'm employing you. Yes. Because that's where the learning comes from. So whenever now in life I've learned that if something really hard happens, it's a good thing. So I was like to Michael, if I make it through this brain surgery, it's going to be the best thing that's ever happened to me.

32:47The learning that I have made in this year and a half, two years since I've had it done, or since I found out about it, has been so immense and enriching in my life. It's given me, my step-mom, like, I wouldn't change that for the world. But when it happened, obviously, it was like, calamity incoming. But to not be afraid of disasters, they will make you a better person. That is so hugely empowering. I do know that. But I think you also have to make a choice whether to, I don't say this lightly because we've all been in a crappy place and felt like the world's closing in. But I do think at some point you make a choice whether to be a victim of that situation or to learn from it and move on.

33:33And it's not easy. I definitely think I was stuck in the mindset of being a victim to certain things and a bad patch of mental health that I thought I couldn't get out of Until I was ready to make the choice. But I think you've shown that beautifully with the example of your brain tumour. That you made a choice to see the positive outcome and to grow and learn from it. Because you can come out of something like that and be shit scared forever that something awful is going to happen again. I think that's an easy route to take. I've definitely been there as well. When's the rug going to be pulled from under my feet again?

34:07It's a hard choice to make. And probably one with a bit of discipline involved. You keep choosing to make that choice. Yeah, and I think things like trauma, if you've been through a trauma, I mean, something like a traumatic birth and then you get pregnant again, obviously you're going to be feeling fear around that again. That is normal. But I think when I'm talking about calamities, it can be anything, but it is where do you get your thinking to and how can you think your way out of it? We are, I love that thing. I saw Mel Robbins the other day talking online. I'm slightly obsessed with her.

34:45We love her. They'd put her in my diary on Begin Again. You talked to her, didn't you, as well? Yeah. Oh, we saw you discovering this. Yeah. You couldn't believe it? No. I thought they'd made a mistake. I mean, you've had your podcast for a while, but I was like, what? Yeah, but you're Davina McCall. Don't you know that? No, but she doesn't know that. She does now. Yeah, she does now. Anyway, she said, you know, I love that idea. And I've heard it before, but no one's coming. Yeah. No one's coming. You've just got yourself. You can't keep waiting for somebody else to come and rescue you. You've got to rescue yourself.

35:25But when you do, oh, it feels so good. Yeah. And you feel so proud. And you think, oh, I did that myself. Yeah. I made myself better. Yeah. Well done, me. Yeah. You're never going to get that feeling from outside validation. No. No. someone no it doesn't telling you what to do it's I certainly realized that in the world of tv because there was a period where I was just like oh god I must just be deeply unpopular like why aren't things working out for me but this childlike part of me kept going someone's going to discover me and they're going to give me the show and then everything's going to be all right and then when I woke up and was like that's not not going to happen I can't rely on that solely that's when I started making opportunities for myself and going off on a whole different tangent but it massively applies to just life and hoping someone's going to save us fix us make everything okay and yeah we need good people around us it's important but we've got to do the work yes it's bloody hard it's bloody hard and that's another thing that I'm I've had to learn to not be resistant towards hard work on myself to actually think oh great a juicy bit of hard work on myself Because almost the harder the work, the more work you have to do, the bigger the reward.

36:46Because you are in a darker, you know, if you have to work harder, you're in a darker place. But when you see the light, the reward is so massive. And a couple of people have said today, oh, you look so well. But it's because I am in a happy place. Yes. Nailed it. Absolutely nailed it. I'll clip that up, Basil, and we'll put that on the trailer. Great. And I think, again, that's about beginning again. If you're not in a happy place, you can begin again whenever you want or need. Oh, you put both in that. Did you see? Shit, that was good. Oh, crikey. I can't cope. I didn't even know I'd done that.

37:32I was subconscious. What? Yeah. It's so brilliant. And I think the key to that is what you said a moment ago, which is you not only like yourself, you love yourself. And when you start liking yourself slash loving yourself, you want to do the hard work because you want to feel better. But you're worth it. You're worth it. You know you deserve it. Do you know another thing that I'd love to tell you is when I first got clean in Narcotics Anonymous, I'm not giving away any secrets. I think most people know this. in Narcotics Anonymous you have a sponsor and that's somebody that's been around and clean for a bit longer than you that can support you on your journey and that you can talk to if you're struggling at all and I hated myself when I got clean I mean I really hated myself I had let myself down I had done things I said I would never do I had let people down I'd let myself down I was ill I I just you know my granny took care of me and she was like taught me morals and manners and I'd lost all of that somehow I've been infected with this dark shadow and my sponsor said to me she the next time I saw her she gave me a mirror it was a little mirror like that and she said I want to put this you to put this on your bedside table and every morning I want you to wake up and I want you to look at it and I want you to say I love you and I saw her like a month later and she went how's it going I said I haven't done it and she said why not I said I just can't it's too and she said okay love's too strong let's start with like so I was like okay I think I can do that anyway I picked it up two nights later or something and I looked in the morning and I looked at it and I said I like you and then I couldn't stop crying because it wasn't true I didn't and I was like how did I get here how did that happen yeah and I thought I'm going to try it again tomorrow and it took me six months before I could even say I love you but I started realizing that you can like yourself warts and all you I didn't have to be perfect I was allowed to have an argument.

39:51I was allowed to judge someone. I was allowed to be impatient. I was allowed to not be perfect and still like myself. And that the little wins in life, you know, me going to a meeting, me trying to help a newcomer, me not taking heroin and not drinking, like yourself for that, like, well done. And eventually that turned into love. And I'm still, I don't ever want to be perfect I'm never going to be perfect I have lots of defects of character that I'm aware of and I work on and I try and be better but it's when you accept yourself warts and all and you are still able to love yourself this is like a really wonderful lovely place to get to I think it's a foundation of all good mental health you know as much as I love doing yoga and meditation and all the things that we've got on offer here, I don't think it touched the sides if you don't like yourself.

40:52It will make you feel good for a minute and then you're back in the cycle of self-loathing, beating yourself up about things. It's a really hard thing to land on. And I wonder, have you felt, because I certainly have over the years, not so much now, but over the years, due to the nature of our job, there is a hell of a lot of noise and outside opinion. and at points in my career, I conflated other people's opinion of me with what I knew about myself. So I started to believe anything anyone said, whether it was really not very good, actually, just all the bad stuff. I was like, yeah, I must be whatever John from Bognor said or, you know, whoever's texting to the radio show.

41:33I just, John from Bognor, you arsehole. He's not a real person. He's not a real person. But do you know what I mean? I would just take on all of it. Like anything anyone said, I would just believe it. And I think it's when you get to a place of, as you say, I like myself, whatever the weather, I'm going to have my own back. That's when you can start to go, I don't care what John thinks. It's not my issue. That's John's life. God, John's so getting it in the neck. But John's got his own issues going on and he's just taking it out on me. It doesn't matter. What's your relationship been like with being in the public eye and having that feedback?

42:07When we talked on Begin Again and I heard your story, I think the really big thing that hit me was how young you were when you became famous. Yeah. And that is an enormous pressure. And in a way, I'm quite pleased that, you know, I was a waitress for two years, which I loved. Massive learning. I worked in a shop and then I got a job as a model agent on the men's desk. She knows what's up. Tough, tough job, tough job. What a tough thing. Someone had to do it. Actually, it was really good fun being in fashion and everything. But I didn't get into telly. I harassed people at MTV for three years to give me an audition.

42:59And I didn't get into telly until I was 25. Thank God, because I got clean at 24. And if I'd have got an audition for MTV, then I would have messed it up. So it was all meant to be. Everything fell into place. But I was pleased, unlike you, that I'd got to do all my mad stuff and be young and, you know, naughty and behave badly out of any kind of judgment or public kind of criticism. and I could start MTV clean and like a kind of new, like being reborn. So I was very lucky then. And I actually feel like the older I've got, the less anything like that bothers me. But so I would say in my 20s, if people used to say, the thing that people used to level at me is that I was just annoyingly enthusiastic.

44:00That's like the best thing about you, by the way. But I am still like that. It's why we all love you. Okay, okay. Because you love life. It's a bit like Marmite. Some people really like that. And some people absolutely hate it. And that's okay. This is the loving yourself warts and all. I am annoyingly enthusiastic. And for some people, that's great. And for other people, it makes them want to... It's like, please turn this off. She is a nightmare. But I'm like, yeah, turn it off. Like, I don't mind. I think those people might be miserable. Well, I also think they'll probably love someone Morrissey.

44:41Miserable. Yeah, correct, yeah. Leonard Cohen. But I don't need it. No. That's what's so nice. And I wouldn't change for that. No, God, no. But I would have done when I was younger. Yeah, I think that's what you start to feel. That's what I like about getting older. Yeah, it's the best thing. all of my friends I've got lots of really interesting wonderful intergenerational friendships that I love one of my friends was in her 80s she died a few years ago but you just get such a different dynamic and advice and that's the one thing that I've heard again and again is when you get in your 60s you'll give even less of a shit wait till you get in your 70s wait till you get in your 80s and then like my mum yesterday who's 72 walking around can I have that cardigan for free like she doesn't care she doesn't care I didn't get the free cardigan.

45:32I wanted the cardigan. She didn't care. And that is liberating. Yeah, her mate Babs. That's Fern's mum. Can she have the cardigan for free? Oh, my God, you're so embarrassing. Pay for the cardigan. Pay for the cardigan. I care. She doesn't care. But that's what I'm aiming for, not caring. Yeah, she's not here, so I don't care now, telling that story. But I think that is absolute liberation, and getting older and not giving a shit. Yes. Heaven. Yes, and I think, well, I'm sure there are people here that can relate to that. It's a gift. A gift. There's got to be a gift with ageing because otherwise it could feel like a loss, but ageing is a loss of one thing, but you gain so much more in another way.

46:21I saw a girl earlier, I think she's here, there, in a beautiful outfit, and she was like, oh, I said, you look amazing. She's like, no, I think it's inappropriate. I'm 40. I shouldn't really be wet. And I was like, wetting my ass off. I like literally don't care. No. I am wearing a skort at 57. Yes. I don't care. Like, and the more inappropriately someone dresses, the older they are, the more I love them. Yes, same. I was thinking, I need women 60, 70, 80, my elder stateswomen, I need you to be outlandish. Yes. And outrageous. I'm loving all this crochet, by the way. You look amazing. You know, I need people out there shining the light for me so that life, as I get older, looks like it's going to be exciting.

47:18Yes, it is. And that's what I want to do for you. You know, I want you to look at me and go, oh, my God, being in my 50s, late 50s is going to be great. Yes. Yes. Yes. I mean, you are thriving. Yes. I've known you a long time. And it just seems like you are thriving more than you ever have. You've got your podcast. You've got your fitness app. You're in a bloody great relationship. You're constantly challenging yourself with new TV projects. That is exciting. But I feel like you're there as well. I feel like it's so funny, like you and I are entering into very similar phases in our lives. And it feels like we're at a time where even if things go wrong, you don't perceive it like that anymore.

48:06Things that go wrong are teaching you somewhere, guiding you somewhere. And that is the gift of getting older. You just learn more and more. It's so great. I'm going off on a totally random tangent. Love that, love that. And it's a quick question. But because you brought up the start of your career and MTV a moment ago, my brain is now obsessing about... Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, go, go. Can you just please bring back Street Mate? Still the greatest show that's ever been on TV. Do you know what? There's never been a better TV show. You know what's mad? For Stand Up To Cancer, a few years ago, I did a Street Mate with a woman who had recovered from breast cancer.

48:44And I took her out. She wanted to meet somebody. And she was finding it hard. She kind of lost a bit of confidence. and I was like, right, we're going to go and get you a date for tomorrow night. And we went out, we went into an office and we found a guy and we'd gone all over the place and it was so fun doing it again. And Channel 4 were like, let's bring it back. And I was like, yes, let's bring it back. And we were, you know, making all the moves and everything. And then two days before they announced it was coming back, they told me that they'd changed their minds. They were going with Scarlett Moffat.

49:15and I was like no no you are you are street mate so Scarlett did it and and then I feel like it was brought back and tried out and it didn't it didn't go so I was like well we have to let go of that well do you though so if anybody wants me to match make them yeah come see me let's do it live at the Happy Place Festival Davina I want to ask you this last question yes I'm not quite sure what the answer is to this. But where is your happy place? I think with people I love. So Michael, our kids, our families,

50:01probably in a karaoke bar or Ibiza. Yeah, it's a very happy place. But with people I love in a place, music, dancing, I feel free. we were listening to Florence and the Machine the other day and that song Free and picks me up, puts me down picks me up, puts me down everybody dancing everybody, that for me with people you love it's like, that's my drug of choice, it makes you feel so we're having a big mine changes all the time it's definitely by the sea but I think it is more about the people that I'm with and just being with people where I feel safe that's a big thing for me being safe and like I'm not I don't know, being judged or there's any danger in that situation I totally get that but we're going to have a huge dance in a moment because Goldie Rocks is going to DJ Yes, I'm so excited about that and we're just going to dance and everyone's going to dance aren't you?

51:06Can I just say, Goldie Rocks is the greatest name ever I know and she's also the most amazing DJ incredible so that's that's how we're going to end our amazing Sunday and our Happy Place Festival I am so grateful for all of you turning up and for sitting and listening to this live podcast and I'm eternally grateful not only for your friendship I'm so proud of you Fern isn't she amazing oh god Fran Cotton please give it up for Davina McCall well I tell you what we went onto that Goldie Rocks set and we danced and we danced and at one point Goldie Rocks, a.k.a. Sam, got everybody doing the conga, which was such a great sort of 80s throwback moment.

51:48It was so lovely and her set was amazing. And also Goldie Rocks was there doing her. She plays amazing DJ sets, but she also has this sound healing scenario called IO Project. And she did sound bars at the festival too. Bloody hell, we love you, Sam. And Davina. Oh, I don't know what to say. I don't know what to say if you already love Davina I bet you've fallen even more deeply in love with her after hearing her speak today um Davina thank you so much for being open and for being my mate I bloody love you I know that that chat moved so many people I had so many people dm me afterwards or come up to me and say something's really changed me after listening to that especially that bit where she talks about being on the tube and like how excited she was to be alive and wanting to tell everybody that was oh my god that was powerful now there'll be another chat from the festival popping up in your feed this week we're really treating you this summer so keep an eye out for that and in the meantime i want to say a massive thanks again to divina to the producers of this episode anushka take hi this is nox from the podcast with nox and jamie and maybe like us at the podcast you also know people who have been smokers or vapors and zen is the one product it seems like everyone is talking about because there are many good reasons to make a change to Zen nicotine pouches.

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54:29Love it. Repeat.

54:59and Basil Oxterby and to you I love you

55:26Thank you.