Dawn French: Shame, apologies, and being a twat

0:00Hello and welcome to Happy Place. I'm Fern Cotton and this is the show that encourages curiosity and gentle growth. Today I'm catching up with Dawn French. We're all talking about inclusivity and you know favouring difference and all the rest of it and that's all great. I love the idea of that but that's not how we're living. We're massively intolerant and bullying and trolling and stuff which has got nothing to do with understanding how other human beings operate and yet we are human beings. We are people who know we make mistakes, we know we have shortcomings, we know all this stuff but because we are expected to present ourselves as perfect it's just wiped out any margin for error oh i'm so excited to have dawn back on the podcast as we discussed she was one of the first people who ever said yes to being on the happy place podcast when we first started and i am forever grateful for that we covered more of her wonderful life story in that episode so do listen to that if you'd like.

1:03Scroll all the way back but this time I wanted to talk about something else. The horrible shame that can come with making mistakes and I wanted to talk about it because I really really don't think it should be that way. We need space to be imperfect. Dawn's new book The Twat Files is a celebration of imperfection. Dawn's put every cringe moment from her life in there, from flirting and on-screen crushes to Pony Club and Elton John. There are so many mishaps, so many misunderstandings, basically loads of gorgeous, messy humanness. It's laugh out loud funny, it's warm and it is so wise. All things that this chat with Dawn was too.

1:49We talked about compassion, about apologising, about how we're shaming each other into silence and about why it's so incredibly powerful to say the words, I don't know. The market's uncertain, revenues tied and hiring on hold. That's why results driven companies are using Upwork to keep work moving. Go to Upwork.com today and start hiring proven freelance talent fast. No bulky overhead, no rigid long term contracts, just the right expert right when you need them. Work smarter and faster with Upwork. Go to Upwork.com now and find your freelance expert. That's U-P-W-O-R-K.com. Post a job for free and get started today.

2:33Hi, this is Knox from the Popcast with Knox and Jamie. And maybe like us at the Popcast, you also know people who have been smokers or vapors. And Zen is the one product it seems like everyone is talking about. Because there are many good reasons to make a change to Zen nicotine pouches. Reasons like Zen nicotine pouches are still America's number one choice for smoke-free, hands-free nicotine satisfaction. And you can choose between 10 varieties, each variety available in either 3 or 6 milligrams. Check out zen.com slash find to find Zen at a store near you. Warning, this product contains nicotine.

3:04Nicotine is an addictive chemical. You're invited to spend an evening on Fremont Avenue. For generations, this house has been home to soulful music, good food, and cutthroat card games. Saints and sinners. Unexpected laughs and unspoken truths. good times, hard times, and of course, family. Always family. So pull up a chair and join us at Fremont Avenue, a world premiere play only at Arena Stage. Performances start October 8th. Tickets at arenastage.org. Hey, I'm Dr. Z and I'm a neurosurgeon. So that means long hours, early rounds, late nights, and everything in between. And through it all, I wear figs.

3:46They're comfortable when it counts and functional when I need them the most. So where do you wear your figs? On shift, on call, on the couch in the break room listening to this podcast, wherever it is, they fit right in. And now listeners of this podcast can get 15 % off their first order. Just head to wearfigs.com and use code FIGSRX at checkout. That's wearfigs.com, code FIGSRX. Just a quick one before we get to Dawn. As you know, the Happy Place Festivals are back for 2024. and I'm so excited to be able to reveal some of the incredible people who are going to be joining us there. We've got Jason Donovan, the Jason Donovan, Roxy Nafusi, Dawn O 'Porter, who I adore, Richie Norton, Olivia Atwood, Denise Van Outen, Ugo Monja and so many more still to be announced.

4:39There's going to be a huge range of inspiring talks and workshops as usual, a brand new area called the Nutrition Hub, loads of opportunities to try something new on our centre stage. And you can listen to some beautiful poetry at our expressive arts area too. For more info and to get your tickets, just head to happyplaceofficial.co.uk. All right, here we go. This is the show.

5:27Hello Dawn French. Hello, how are you Fern Cotton? I'm so good, I'm so good. Now this is a wonderful moment for many reasons, one of them being you were my first ever guest on Happy Place the podcast. Was I? You were the first. I know that I was at the beginning. Was I the first to go out? Yeah. Didn't Tom Daley go out? Oh, we don't care about him. Who's he? Whatever. Yes, okay. I think it was, but you were the first I recorded. Yeah, okay. Without a doubt. I remember, you came all the way down to Cornwall. I did, it was March 2018, which is six years ago. Oh my Lord. How? Okay. And I said to you, Dawn, will you come on my podcast?

6:09And I think you said, I don't know what that is, but yes. Can you come to my house? Yeah, as long as you're prepared to travel to me. And it was so lovely. I didn't know what a podcast was. I barely did. Well, you were one of the first to do a podcast and look how successful it's been. Good for you. But I have to thank you because having you say yes definitely led to a momentum where other people went, oh, Dawn did it. Yeah, I'll do it. So huge thank you. Well, can we be done with the thank yous? And I'd rather have money or flowers or chocolates or something that I can hold, something I can see we can we can make that arrangement it will happen but we've got so we actually listened back to that episode and we covered all sorts of things but there's sort of I guess a very specific route I want to take today and that is inspired by your brilliant book and your tour your book the twat files which I lulled the whole way through but there's real beautiful poignant moments in there as well yeah but these are moments where you've messed up like we all have or things have gone a bit wrong what was the impetus to make you focus on these moments in your life you know the like a lot of good things in life this was a bit of a happy accident because I had done a tour called 30 million minutes which was mainly about my actual life and my family and who made me and all the things have been through so it was very personal um and I wanted to go out tour again.

7:40And I thought, right, okay, what have I not talked about? And I thought, well, I haven't talked about any career stuff, work stuff, but then that is really the part of me that has been in the public eye. So why would I be talking about that when people have already witnessed that, if you like? And I thought, well, maybe what people are more interested in is the stories from behind the scenes, stuff that, you know, how things get to where they do when they're polished. So I started with that as a thought. And then I started to think of silly times and things that had gone a bit wrong. And that's what amused me.

8:14And I thought, well, I'll tell them a few. I'll tell some stories. I mean, I'm not really a stand up, but I am a storyteller. And I thought, well, I can tell stories about times when things have gone a bit wrong. I'll litter the show with that because that will amuse me and them. Then I started to think more and more and honestly the realization that I've been such a twat for so much of my life it's a bit humbling and um and also quite revealing and I thought these are the stories that I'm interested in these are the stories I will enjoy performing for people so why don't I just write down all the times that I think I've been a bit of a twat on stage or you know in film or TV or whatever.

8:57So there were a whole load of those, loads of those, some that suited the stage show, but many more that I decided, well, there's more that need to go in a book. And also then I thought, what about my actual real life? The moments in my real life where I've made stupid decisions or done a stupid thing. And I thought, yeah, there are loads of these. And the more I thought about it, A, the more I was delighted in it. and B, the more I knew that this show was going to be more than I had thought it would be. I thought it was just going to be some face the front show off and have a laugh kind of show.

9:34But actually, the more you talk about mistakes you've made, the more you own it and sort of reshape it into whatever form you want to amuse or to explain or to unburden. And all of those things just leave you so free of any of the shame of any of it. And it's delightful. And I thought, blimey, this is something I should have been doing all along. And then I thought, but I have been doing this because this is what I do with my beloveds. This is what we all do. When you see a friend, you don't tell them your marvellous successes where you've been perfect. Well, I wouldn't with my friends or certainly not with my family.

10:18I'd be killed. instantly if I was that arrogant. But what you do is you say, you won't believe what I did. And then you relish the chance to explain what a fool you are. But you only relish it because you know you're in safe hands. You know you're with beloveds who will enjoy this and who will keep your shame safe and not let it become anything bigger or worse. And what's more, they will also unzip. Yeah. And they will come back with the same stories and trust you. And that's how we communicate with people. I'm not interested in perfect, successful people. I don't believe it for a second. We know this.

11:00Oh, it's like our bollocks. We know it. We know it more than we know anything else. So why do we pretend differently? Now, listen, I'm not saying we shouldn't enjoy each other's successes or we shouldn't be proud of each other or celebrate all the great moments. I'm not saying that at all. I'm just saying the other moments I think might be even more valuable. So much more. And like you say, revealing, liberating, saying them out loud. It is, of course, a very different thing talking to your beloveds who you know you trust and they trust you if they want to share as well. But standing on a stage or writing a book, not knowing who's going to read those stories, Did that have a different feeling about it?

11:45Well, look, any writing that I do, and, you know, there are probably real, thoroughbred, proper grown-up serious writers who think differently about this. So you are one of them. Oh, you are more so than me. You are also a writer. But, you know, some people could write because they just have to write because it's just absolutely who they are and what they must do to feel creative and whatever. I write so that it lands in someone's eyes, ears, head, heart, wherever it lands. It has no purpose to me unless it connects with somebody somehow. Now, novels are one way of doing that, of immersing yourself in a character, in a story and, you know, having a purpose to writing a novel.

12:28I love that. That's rigorous. But nonfiction writing like this also has a place. and so long as it's entertaining first and foremost but also has a belly of some kind or a purpose of some kind then I'm all in for that and then I'm happy to spend time alone in a room in my head enjoying you know the delights of my own mistakes and my own follies if you like because I know it will land and the weird thing was as I was doing the show as I was doing the show in front of live audience. I hoped that by opening up these silly mistakes, it would be funny for all of us. I hoped that. And I thought, surely I've got, after all these years, I've got some skills to be able to deliver stories that might be quite funny like this.

13:20But what I really felt, and it was a kind of visceral thing in the room, and it pretty much happened every night. Thank you. Thank you.

13:34I'm I'm thanking you. I'm thanking them. But thank you if you were ever in an audience. But anyway, I noticed that they lean in. There's a kind of moment where you think, yeah, you're with me on this because you two have felt this. I've managed to, by a happy accident, as I say Chance upon something that we all know to be true Therefore you're giving me permission to say it And I feel you leaning in You're not sitting back Waiting for me to amuse you with my jester stories You are joining me because you've done it too And you've felt this way You've felt this humiliation You've felt the sting of those tinging moments where it's just awful and you can't take it back and you did it and it's awful.

14:23You too have felt it. But hey, let's try and take the awful thorn out of it. Don't let it be a haunting thing. That's what I think I've felt for a lot of years, more years than I care to think or that I wish, you know, like everything growing up is about finding these things out, isn't it? And growing old is even more about that. I think, God, why have I carried some humiliation about this? I didn't need that. I think we all do. And I think that's why it feels like not only a great source of laughter and entertainment, but a really important book. And, you know, you say in the book, if you shine a light on it, shame, embarrassment, all these ugly feelings, it vanishes.

15:03You can flush out the embarrassment by owning it and brightening it up. And I think it's absolutely true. But you still have to have an element of courage. Or I think there's certainly things I was thinking of when I was reading your book, like, oh, I don't know if I would still say this aloud because shame can... But it breeds in silence and it breeds in secrecy. Agree. Those stories get bigger and bolder and have more punch to them when you don't say them aloud. And you're giving the power away. That's the problem. You give the power to the person who's made you feel that or the person who also knows this secret or whatever.

15:41You give the power away to the mistake. I want to have the power of it and I want to really wrestle it to the floor and reshape it. And once you do, honestly, it disappears. And the other thing that helps, and I do mention this in the book, and I've thought a lot about this since it occurred to me. And in fact, I could write a whole book about this, I think. But the power of a proper, authentic apology. Oh, yeah. And any mistake, not purposeful evil, not that, that's unforgivable. But any mistake, an intentional mistake that you make is forgivable if you properly apologise. This is such an interesting one.

16:25Reading that bit of the book, I thought about it a lot because I absolutely agree. And not that long ago, I wrote a letter to someone that I had unintentionally upset. They weren't a great friend, but I knew them and I've always felt bad about it. and did you how did you find out you had upset them did it come to you via someone else I found out they were upset but also in hindsight I can see that I'd gotten it wrong okay absolutely and this was probably I don't know 15 20 years ago long long time ago so I think just again with age and experience and my own shortcomings I can see wow okay I wouldn't act like that now and I wrote a letter which I hope they've received and I don't know what the outcome is I'm not even expecting one but the lightness I feel about that situation which used to really drag me down is huge but I wonder if there are exceptions do you think there are times when it's not possible to say sorry if you perhaps assume or have a slight intuition that it won't be accepted or you might then open up another can of worms with them being back in your life.

17:39Do you think there are exceptions? That's interesting. I suppose you might protect yourself by not apologising to someone you think might come back into your life if that person is toxic or difficult for you or whatever. But I think I would risk it. Yeah. I don't think I've ever regretted an apology. I don't think I've ever regretted one. even if it was difficult to do or sometimes you know I have learned this again with age that that kind of apology that isn't real is the one that sounds a bit like I'm sorry that you took it that way which isn't an apology is it in fact it's worse yeah it's worse it's I'm sorry you're so dreadful that you do you're so inadequate that you don't know how to you know it's so patronising that kind of or even the sarcastic sorry sorry a thousand sorrys is that enough how many stories do you want from me that kind of sorry doesn't do it doesn't cut it at all and yet we somehow have learnt how to be like that I certainly have learnt how to be with a bit of comedy or a bit of um uh arrogance maybe we learnt to sort of put a bit of a protective cloak around ourselves by spitting out and I think it's to do with being defensive yeah and protecting ourselves more and we live certainly live in a time where we're afraid of what might happen so even an apology feels like accountability does accountability then lead to blame does it then lead to even worse stuff and you know this is how we live now which is just awful it's toxic And I was wondering how you're feeling about that, because I think the margin for error is so tiny now.

19:34People have got no tolerance. And this is the interesting thing. They've got no tolerance for anyone, maybe in the public eye or politics or whatever it is, making a mistake. And I'm pretty sure that means they've got a very low tolerance for making mistakes themselves. Because if you're judging others in that way, surely you're judging yourself in that way. I think it's a cultural thing. It is, yeah. It's become a kind of a malaise in a funny way. And I'm really sad about it. My only hope for this, for my own kids and stuff, is that this will change because there's nearly always a backlash to anything like this.

20:10And I hope a fresher, more open and inclusive way of thinking. We're all talking about inclusivity and, you know, favouring difference and all the rest of it. And that's all great. I love the idea of that, but that's not how we're living. Nope. We're living the opposite of that. We're, you know, we're massively intolerant and quick to blame and litigation and bullying and trolling and all of this dreadful stuff, which has got nothing to do with understanding how other human beings operate. And yet we are human beings, most of us. You know, we are people who know we make mistakes. We know, you know, that we have shortcomings.

20:48We know all this stuff. But because we are expected to present ourselves as perfect and only celebrate all the perfect things, it's just wiped out any, as you say, any margin for error. I am a massive advocate of robust debate that might change your mind but you've gone out the window too but that's the best thing in the world correct yeah that's how we govern or should it's not how we govern anymore but the whole point is I sit here with you you have a different opinion to me you have a different experience to me and by listening to you and also knowing and this is key knowing that your intent is good If I suspect your intent is not good or there's another purpose to your intent, of course I'm going to be suspicious.

21:40And again, human beings operate on a thousand sophisticated levels. So I'll be feeling a bit of that as you start telling me your opinions. I think she's got another agenda. But if your intent is good and we sit here and you tell me your other opinion or how you came to it, I'm going to understand that. Yeah. And could still happily disagree. Lovely. Could happily disagree or could change my mind and agree. And that would be a win for both. But it's impossible if what we've got to do is hunker back into our positions, defend them by spitting and being furious and then blaming and cancelling. Yeah.

22:19I don't know how to be like that. And shaming. I think that's become really normal, shaming other humans. And I think we forget how unbelievably dangerous that is for the receiving, the beneficiary of that shame. I think we can remember every time we've been shamed in our lives more than probably many other memories. I was thinking about it reading your book. I remember this really harmless moment of being probably five or six at school and drawing a picture of a house, as I'd been told to do. and my dad, who was a sign writer, used to kind of sketch and use this real sort of wishy-washy way of using his pencils.

22:55So I thought, well, I'm just going to copy my dad. He's a professional. And I got so told off and ashamed in front of the class for not colouring it in completely and neatly. And that's something that happened when I was five. We don't forget these moments. No, we don't. And I think that's luckily slowly coming out of the parenting model and the school model. But it hasn't come out of how we're communicating on social media. No, it hasn't. But as you have grown through that and remember the sting of that awful moment, you also know now as an adult that that person was wrong to do that to you. So you might forgive them for it because they got it wrong.

23:31And you have to hope with good intent they had some other agenda. They mistook your creativity. They didn't get it. They were having a shit day. Having a shit day. Anything. Yeah. Let's forgive that because that can go. but you know as an adult they were wrong you don't have to carry it as you were wrong yeah it's not your shame to have it's their shame to have but I think as adults we conflate the two we don't know what our own opinion is anymore and we actually think the person that shamed us is probably right and I've definitely felt like that as a grown adult yeah and I still find that tricky to unpick sometimes like you know even if you know that your intent was good but you still got it wrong which happens all the time for all of us i mean tense good but we get it a little bit off we're not quite sure what we're talking about but when you've been shamed i think it's really it's a really tricky situation my instinct is to hide go into my shell i'm never going to speak again i don't want to say anything or move into sort of scary territory i think it's a really tricky thing to know yourself and go but i know that yes i got it wrong but i know my intent yeah was good yeah It's really tricky.

24:38You've got to have guts to do that. It's to show you don't trust each other that as a base level that your intention is good. That's what I would like to believe about other humans. Same. You want to believe they meant well, but they got it a bit wrong. And that makes it forgivable then. I mean, I genuinely think we're being forced into corners where I can smell my own cowardice. I don't like that. yeah i've never been cowardly i hope but i'm starting to be that because i'm being circumspect about what i will support or not in case it causes trouble yeah you know and even thinking about the timing of when i might say such a thing or what might be cherry picked out of this and lambasted against me and yet and that forces us to shut up i know and we're not we're not going to shut up haven't we lived long enough as women especially you know we that's the last thing we should do is shut up or you know put baby in the corner we shouldn't be back in the corner and yet I am in the corner and I really dislike it about myself and about this cultural malaise where I just think I'd like to support that person in what they just said there oh that's going to be taken wrong because there's a whole gang of people that don't like this person then I'm going to be in their gang and they wouldn't like me in that gang and and also can i be bothered no with the huge maelstrom that will come but that means some people who are being brave enough to speak up are alone yeah because those of us who might support them can't take on all the problems it might bring what a shitty that's cowardly load of crap we got ourselves into here how has it happened how have people given their lives so that we could vote how have people done so many things to push forward and now we're in this place it's like you I don't know how to unpick it I don't I also I remember I mean I've got a lot of young people in my life and some of the young people in my life are quite um confrontational about exactly these kind of things and I'm up for that.

26:53I want to know what the thinking is. I want to understand and I want to learn. Um, and I want to have my say when I think I, I think I've got a handle on it, um, and be heard, um, you know, in equal time. But I remember once I did, um, well, I did a podcast with somebody actually who at the end of the podcast, um, she said to me something, I can't even remember exactly what it was about now, but it was something. And it was when we'd finished recording and we were talking about oh I can't remember we were talking about some I think it was uh we were talking about JK Rowling I think and uh this person said to me no no no no no we're not having any of that we know we're not associated with that and I went oh okay because I know JK a bit and I said um oh okay because and she said yeah because she used this terminology and we're not doing that's unacceptable I said oh oh I don't even know that term what is that and she went you you need to catch up Dawn.

27:52You need to catch up. People can't be constantly teaching you how to be because this is not okay and you need to catch up. And I left that, I left it all thinking, okay, do I need to catch up? Is that right? I do need to catch up and that is true. But I also need to be taught. I need to learn. And also we can't know everything. There's loads of things. There's loads of moments where I go, oh, can you, I don't, I don't know. And that's become another thing. It's almost like you are not allowed to say, I don't know anymore. I don't know about this subject. I don't know. We're not allowed to say it.

28:26I don't know. I don't know. Yeah. And yet it's very powerful to say that, especially when you don't know. That's better than pretending you do know. Completely. And it's certainly better than forming an opinion about something you don't know. I know. And I'm just saying, please, especially you younger folk, please inform me and explain this to me so that I can understand it and not make this mistake again. But don't tell me to catch up.

28:51The market's uncertain. Revenue's tied and hiring on hold. That's why results-driven companies are using Upwork to keep work moving. Go to Upwork.com today and start hiring proven freelance talent fast. No bulky overhead. No rigid long-term contracts. Just the right expert right when you need them. Work smarter and faster with Upwork. Go to Upwork.com now and find your freelance expert. That's U-P-W-O-R-K.com. Post a job for free and get started today. Hi, this is Knox from the Popcast with Knox and Jamie. And maybe like us at the Popcast, you also know people who have been smokers or vapors. And Zen is the one product it seems like everyone is talking about.

29:31Because there are many good reasons to make a change to Zen nicotine pouches. Reasons like Zen nicotine pouches are still America's number one choice for smoke-free, hands-free nicotine satisfaction. And you can choose between 10 varieties, each variety available in either 3 or 6 milligrams. Check out zen.com slash find to find Zen at a store near you. Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical. Hey, I'm Dr. Z and I'm a neurosurgeon. So that means long hours, early rounds, late nights, and everything in between. And through it all, I wear figs. They're comfortable when it counts and functional when I need them the most.

30:07So where do you wear your figs? On shift, on call, on the couch in the break room listening to this podcast? Wherever it is, they fit right in. And now listeners of this podcast can get 15 % off their first order. Just head to wearfigs.com and use code FIGSRX at checkout. That's wearfigs.com, code FIGSRX. On the JK Rowling note, there's the most brilliant podcast on everything we're talking about called JK Rowling, The Witch Trials. I've heard it. It's wonderful. It's one of the best podcasts I've ever listened to in my life. JK is her feet are held to the fire. Yeah. And because the woman, I can't remember her name.

30:50I know she's a fantastic, fantastic speaker. Do you know that she is the woman who presents it was one of the reasons she's brilliant for this is because she understands hate. Yep. She was in the. She was part of the Westboro. That's it. Westboro Church. Yeah. Methodist or something. Yeah. Baptist. Baptist Church. Who were the most hated family that Louis Theroux interviewed, didn't he? And I was surprised when I realised that's who it was. And I thought, of course, she's the right person for this. Because she's been loathed. Yeah, but she also knows that she got it wrong, that she was wrong in her views before.

31:22And she's extremely explicit in saying that without any shame. She is. She's like, I got it wrong. She is. And she wants to understand how it actually places everything in context in terms of history, what was going on in our world, who the loudest, shiniest, loudest, most colourful voices are, which happened to be JK at a particular time, who made her mistakes, but who is also a good person with a remarkable history of all kinds of things and has paid a huge price and whatever. And part of me thinks this is the exact situation where robust debate would help us all. Which I think that podcast is because you've got every corner of the spectrum covered in terms of different voices and people coming on to have their say as well as JK.

32:13And I thought it was so balanced and there was no narrative forced upon you. I think everybody who listened to that whole series came away going, wow, I've got I've got a lot to think about. And actually, I'm still not sure. Yeah. And I'm kind of mulling it all over. And you can still take offense and you can still be outraged. Yeah. And you can, but at least you've had lots more facts than you ever did. I agree with you. That is a terrific podcast. But that's what, that's a really good example of how we should be talking about everything. Agree. Just all discussing everything with the anger taken out.

32:47Because I don't feel like any of those voices or contributors came at it with anger. They were all really up for having a proper good debate. And also talking about their personal stories, their lived experience. and, you know, I love listening to other people's stories, otherwise I wouldn't bother doing this podcast, but there's only so much I guess you can take from that. I don't have your lived experience, I don't have last week's guest lived experience, but I'll listen and I'll learn. And that's all we can do. There is a cap to that where we go, that's all I can do is listen and learn. I can't feel those feelings or embody it.

33:22And I think we're in such a muddle with all of that. We are. We're in such a muddle with it. I think one of the things we might have to understand a bit more is that not everybody comes at something from the same place obviously but we don't start on evil level playing ground we don't no I remember back in the 80s when Jennifer and I were just starting you know and there were no women really there had been a Wood and Walters were around a bit and there'd been some women you know back in the 50s who'd done a few things but It was honestly fingers of one hand that you could count on. And what I remember being, and I think this is a little bit of a repeat of that, is being massively offended and angry at anything guys said about women in comedy.

34:09Furious about it all. I remember somebody asking me, you know, and it was a righteous anger in a way, somebody, or rightful anger, maybe that was a better way to say it. Somebody asked me about juggling children and work and stuff like that. Would you ask a man that? Would you ask? You know, I was the person in a pub who, if you pulled your peanuts off the topless woman, do you remember those? Oh, fucking hell. Behind the bar. They had them in the gate in Northwood, I remember it. You know, if I saw them, I'd be absolutely furious and want to speak to the barman. I'll have crisps instead. So I was ready for a fight.

34:43I had my jukes up, ready at all times. So I've got a feeling, you know, this isn't the first time people have been outraged. And in a way, the collateral damage or the teething problems of change are these spiky moments. But I'm all for the spiky moments. That is where all the learning is. It really is. But I can't be forced into a corner and yet I am in one. I don't know how to get out of it. I think we all feel that at the moment. Unless, like you say, you're ready to put yourself above the parapet and go, right, bring it on. And that's a big, big thing to do. It's life-changing. Well, then you wouldn't get any other work done.

35:21No, no. That will become who you are now. Yeah. You know, your cause, if you like. Yeah. So you better really, it better be a real cause that you are prepared for everything in your life to be subliminated underneath. Yeah, completely. It's utterly bonkers. But like you just said, what we're missing out on when we either don't look at our mistakes or we're intolerant of other people's mistakes is the learning. We're not learning probably very much at all from the good moments, the happy moments, the perfect moments. They're lovely and they feel fantastic. But the learning is when you're on your knees.

35:55The learning is when you've looked back and you're cringing and you can't bear it. That's when you make a decision to go, I won't do that again. Or maybe I'll learn a bit more about this or that or whatever. That's the good stuff. It is. And look, we know because we've got kids, they're going to make mistakes. Of course they are. They're supposed to. But that's when it's worrying. If your kid makes a mistake and repeats it and repeats it and repeats it, especially if it hurts them or gives them shame or embarrassment or humiliation or any of those awful things, then you have to worry. It's if you make the mistake and even if you make it again, but then you move on or then you learn from it.

36:35Hooray for those mistakes. I'm not sure what you learn from success. Not very much at all. What I would say is I have seen increasingly in the last few years, people with a lot of whatever successes, you know, wealth, I don't know what it looks like. I don't really entirely buy it. But people who have a lot of that feeling spiritually and emotionally bereft. Yep. Because somehow that part of their life, which looks all marvellous and seems to be all tied up, means this part has been neglected. So what is success and what is the point of it all? I'd much rather live in the place I am, which is lucky, which is a bit awkward, bit wrong, bit ugly, bit didn't feel right, got the wrong thing, wore the wrong clothes, said the wrong thing, regret that.

37:31You know, constant, fussy, difficult, awkward stuff. It is exhausting, but it's truthful. It's being a human. Just being a human. We're expecting humans to not be humans. We're expecting them to be shiny, perfect robos and walk around and everything is perfect. Life is so messy. Especially when you present it yourself. I mean, I know it's an old chestnut to blame social media, but I wish social media was full of lots of ugly, difficult, funny stuff. And there is some of that. That's what I certainly cleave towards, all that stuff. But there's also far too much of, aren't I perfect in this? I went to this clever thing and I'm marvellous.

38:12You know, there's that. And I don't begrudge anybody any of that. But it's not real. But please put your other stuff on. But it's not real at all. I don't think it's even 1 % of the reality of what they're experiencing in that moment. If it's a picture of them looking perfect in an outfit or whatever it might be. Yeah. And we all could go, and I think many of us do, oh, God, they've got all their shits together and their life is so perfect. And I'm, you know, my cat's just done a massive shit and the kid's doing this and you're just sort of stressing. Yes. It means nothing, but we're sort of buying into it.

38:41And I think that's one of the reasons the margin for error has got so small. Yes. And why I was so relieved. It's like this, reading this book is a liberation of relief. Like, oh, God, yeah, we're all doing it. We're all doing it. Actually, it helped me turn some moments that I would have gone, oh, I'm not looking at that, into funny cringe. So one thing that came up was, and there's stuff that I had buried, And it's not even big stuff, especially the work stuff, because you have some hilarious work moments in there. There was a time where obviously I was sort of like a fetus on the TV trying to present a TV show with a huge amount of naivety and cockiness and everything that comes with being a teenager.

39:24I remember being a teenager and having to go into one of those awful film junkets where a celebrity sits there and they're just bombarded with questions all day. and it was Brad Pitt. And I thought, I'm going to cheer his day up. Whilst I'm interviewing him, I'm going to get him... I mean, this is so cringe to admit. You're in a safe space here, Fern. That I thought this was okay to do. You're safe. I'm going to get him to draw me and I'm going to draw him whilst I interview him. Okay. Correct. His face literally dropped. It was like his heart sunk. it was like he was ready just to go do you know what guys I'm done I've we've done 80 of these and she's the final straw she's the worst I'm out and I think he literally drew like the shittest sort of stick person I was really getting into it and it was just the cringe and I I thought I could never repeat that to anyone I'm a professional I'm really good at interviewing I've always been good at interviewing what a load of absolute bollocks I've had so many awful interviews I was 16 17 I've done so many awful interviews I've got people's names wrong I've said stupid things like I've done all the stuff that you don't want to admit but it's part of who I am and it's actually it's the stuff that I've I've loved I'm never gonna have you're not drawing me right now do you know I mean I've learned not to do that again I will if you want me to I will if you want to work through it terrible idea um but you but you learn and we're all a melting pot of all of these mistakes and cringy things and and you know I think the shame thing is big because I I do think there is a difference between embarrassment to shame.

40:59And I think shame is where regret can come in. Now, you say, and it's on the front cover of your book, A Life of Mistakes, No Regrets. I'm trying. That's what I aspire towards, no regrets. What do you think helps get you to that place of no regrets? Owning everything. But honestly, honestly, honestly owning stuff where you've fucked up, you know. And when you were resentful, spiteful, harboring anger, you know, all these things, which again, all human and all forgivable, but more difficult to forgive when you've, you know, really been spiky for no reason. or when you've decided that that person who upset you, you're going to hang on to it and you're going to punish them for it forever and it's going to pass up and become a great big thing and you only define them by that awful thing they said to you.

41:55In other words, all the rules you'd like to have applied to you or the forgiveness and the kindness you'd like to apply, you must learn to do it back. And not, because we slightly enjoy this. There's an enjoyment in sulking. There's an enjoyment in resentment. So, you know, and don't get me wrong. I think if someone is unkind to you or someone is an unkind person, yeah, you have to recognise that. You have to know what it is and you have to make sure you dodge it. And there's always a way to dodge stuff. And you might have to remember that of that person so that you dodge them. If you think, again, their intent has no valour in it or no goodness in it, then of course that's your survival.

42:42You must dodge that. But just because someone hurt your feelings isn't a reason to carry it as a weapon. You know, and the weapon is, the only person carrying the heavy weapon is you. Yeah. You know, and it is heavy. And you're carrying it just in case you see that person, you can shoot them down. And you kind of want to see them. Yeah, but who's suffering? Who's suffering? You know, that's why forgiveness is like the biggest gift of all and so hard to do. I mean, you know, when I think about the massive forgivenesses of history, people who've been persecuted, who have to forgive the people, I have no idea how somebody does that, although I know you have to, to have your own life or to regain anything.

43:23I know it's the right thing. I don't know how... Some people climb a mountain that is so huge that I couldn't possibly begin to imagine it. But we're all climbing some mountains, however big or small in our lives. And sometimes our personal little mountain is one that is huge to us. Yeah. And it might mean that I might just have to say to my auntie or whoever, you know, that thing you said when I was 13, which hurt me in the way that that teacher hurt you. It's gone now. It's gone. And, you know, I know that you're an OK person. Sort of. and you and you I want you to know that that hurt me then yeah it's gone now and let's hug it out you know it feels so much better doesn't it and how but how do you feel forgiving yourself because I think we have a very hard time doing that that can maybe be harder than forgiving others well you have to own it first and that's the really difficult thing because I think we also it's very important that we work out who we are you know you work out what your politics are and you do that you make mistakes doing that you know that that's kind of what college or university or those years of your life uh that's what i think further education is about actually essentially about that it's about being a total twat you know sleeping with all the wrong people yeah getting the wrong politics for taking up the wrong hobby uh voicing yourself in a certain way wearing the wrong clothes, doing everything wrong, so that you can work out who your mates are, who you are attached to, who you think is wise, who you think is clever, what you think is right or wrong.

45:05That's really what all of that timing is about. So then we have a picture of who we are. And what you've got to be careful of is that you don't get entrenched in that so that you'd never change. And that is a difficult thing to do because you have principles. principles and you know my parents had principles and I know that I lived by their principles their moral compass if you like for quite a long time until I realized that some of them weren't quite what I really felt or maybe were in setting another time and we might need to adjust or work out and that's why when the person said to me catch up Dawn that spoke to all of that for me I thought, oh, oh, I'm stuck in amber in this weird time.

45:52I'm part of the problem here. I need to catch up. I need to catch up. And it wasn't until afterwards that I thought, just give me a chance to catch up. Yeah, but also... The willing is there. I find it really problematic because there'll be so many other issues that that particular person doesn't know about, and that's OK. There could be things in other areas, whether it's to do with animal cruelty or race or whatever that they don't know about. So we're all trying and we're all learning, I think, to sort of blame or shame or point out when someone isn't up to scratch. I just don't think it's helpful.

46:28I agree. I agree. Although I have had people in my life where... The market's uncertain. Revenue's tied and hiring on hold. That's why results-driven companies are using Upwork to keep work moving. Go to Upwork.com today and start hiring proven freelance talent fast. No bulky overhead. No rigid long-term contracts. Just the right expert right when you need them. Work smarter and faster with Upwork. Go to Upwork.com now and find your freelance expert. That's U-P-W-O-R-K.com. Post a job for free and get started today. If you're a smoker or vapor ready to make a change, you really only need one good reason.

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47:49FIGS moves with me and keeps me comfortable in the highest pressure situations. FIGS gives me one less thing to worry about. Get 15 % off your first order by visiting wearfigs.com and use code FIGSRX at checkout. That's wearfigs.com, code FIGSRX. you know i have people around me older people maybe who might use terminology yes i find difficult problematic yes and so that's when i think right in time to plug into all the tolerance i've got and to say by the way just saying carefully gently uh with no blame that we don't say that anymore yeah and this is my mixed-race daughter and we don't refer to her and those terms and nobody does anymore it's a bit kind of done and for those people to go oh i see i see they're a little bit annoyed that you might have even said it because you're calling them out yeah however gently but then they continue to do it so this is where you have to make some decisions this is older people um and somehow they've hunkered down into their their lexicon their terminology what they always thought was right their mother thought that was right they thought they don't want you to tell tell them how to be and is the is the fight worth it with someone who is not just that that that is not the whole person the whole person is many other kind, marvellous things with this little hole where they're doing something a bit offensive to me, more than a bit offensive, and they won't listen to me.

49:31They don't want to listen. And possibly they are hunkered back into their opinions and they don't want to be flushed out. It was embarrassing to find it out. And embarrassment is too much. It's trapped them somehow. So I'm going to have to wrap my understanding around that. And it's many layers. But this is it. All of this is so nuanced and that's why it's problematic when it's like, you're wrong, done. Yeah. Because it's not like that. It's all so nuanced and due to myriad of things. Yeah. And I think that's why your backstop has to be, I bet this is a nice person, really. Yeah. Or what's happened here?

50:09What's happened? I mean, you know, my husband runs what I would call a rehab. he doesn't refer to it as that actually but he just says you know he helps people that are in a bit of a pickle and he constantly reminds me that lots of the people that are in a pickle with alcohol or drugs or whatever it might be eating whatever it might be in life there's a reason why these things have happened and there might be reasons that I couldn't even begin to understand so it's not for me to do the judging of why somebody is in the pickle I may not like what they do when they're in a pickle and I've got a right just to have my boundaries when it comes to you know if you're going to be drunk you don't look after a kitten or a baby or whatever it might be you know you don't do that but I also have to try and understand what their particular mountain might be that got them to that place and if that person manages to go for a month without resorting to these things that have become their crutches forever that's a giant mountain but it's tiny to me because I'm I'm not in that problem I'm I'm not I'm not at the bottom of that giant mountain I'm already halfway up there and I started halfway up there because I haven't had all the trauma or all the whatever it was that drove you to that place and sometimes it won't be even a big physical trauma that happened to you often is but sometimes it won't be that It'll be a gnawing, eroding of your confidence or an unlovedness or whatever it might be that I have no experience of.

51:48So I don't have a right to judge it, but I do have a duty to respect it. But you have to, that means you've got to wrap around every person. Instead of regarding everyone, as I say, on that level playing field of either you're a good person, you're a bad person, you're managing, you're not managing. which is what we all do very quickly when we judge somebody um you know on first sight you know instead you think what is it what's got you to that where why are you doing that why are you being so spiky older person in my life using inappropriate language what's going on here you know and sometimes if you just wait a little while just wait a little while it comes back around and they will capitulate or they will give in or you find suddenly there's a moment when they don't use that terminology when they could have you think yay victory victory victory and that's i've got to apply that to myself as well that's hard yeah but because you don't know what your offenses are no no until somebody tells you and we we've all got blind spots we're all going to have someone out there that we don't understand and we're not actually sure how we're offending or why we're offending but we have and we need to look at that and well the irony of course is that your blind spots are always your beloveds yeah so in a funny way they're the very people that you should be taking to know that you're safe to do so that's your job to do if you're a mother or a sister or a daughter or whatever it is these are the people that you should be able to talk openly with but they are also the ones that you forgive much more quickly than anything and also it suits you not to see it it suits you not to see that fault because that happens to be somebody in your family or that happens to be something you adore and you just it's just too difficult to admit that you know that there's this big difficult area to have to deal with in the long run i mean so much of this boils down to empathy doesn't it when we're looking at mistakes whether it's feeling that self-compassion for ourselves or having the empathy to forgive and move on witnessing other people's empathy it feels like we've got a bit of a collective empathy the deficit going on.

53:54That's what we're experiencing. I agree. And I don't know how to change that. No. I don't know how to change it. And we're going to have to raise our kids, our grandkids, all of them, with more confidence than this. They're going to have to be braver than us. I don't know how to do that. It's a tricky one, isn't it? Because we don't want them to have to have a suit of armour on to go out into the world, but we do want them to not feel silenced. Yeah, not feel silenced. And always question. Yeah. You know, always question. But you've got to be allowed to question without it being regarded as an ignorance.

54:27Yep. Yep. God, it's complicated, but it's utterly... It is complicated. It is. But don't forget the fun. Oh, it's so fun. That's the only thing that I can... That is a constant in my life is that of every difficult thing, and certainly every mistake, there's the flip side of it where you go, I can't believe this is who I was in that particular occasion. I can't believe I had a crush on this person and said those things. The story that made me laugh out loud, and then I had to go and read it to my husband, was when you went to the panto with Jennifer and you weren't in on the joke that everybody else knew.

55:10Do you want me to tell the story? So I went to a panto and we went to see a friend of ours. We were, I don't know, we'd only just started. when we must have been about 23, 24. And we were sitting in the middle of a row and our lovely friend Gareth was singing. He was a prince charming. It was marvellous. And the buttons came on and announced that there was going to be a prize for whoever had the winning magic number on the back of their programme. And I've never won a prize. And that mitigates my story a bit. I've never won a prize. And what's more, he then held up the prize, which was a giant troll.

55:44Those kind of trolls that you stick on top of a pencil. Love to troll. I collected those. in all colours of hair, that this was giant. I mean, I really wanted it. Wanted it more than any 23-year-old shoe. But really wanted it. So very interested in that. Buttons comes on and he puts his hand in the bucket to take out the random winning number. And he announced that the number was number 13. And I was, I had number 13. I could not believe it. Finally, finally, I had won something. So I just pushed everybody else out of the way in my row. I can see it now. you know scraping my knees get out of the way I'm the winner I'm the winner getting out into the aisle and even Jennifer trying to pull me back and I just thought she wants it she's not having it so I just went I got to the aisle and I started a little victory trot all the way down to the front and there was this kind of noise going on all around me and I mistook that noise for a kind of them goading me on like a hysteria you know celebrating the champion and I got to the stage got all the way to the stage so I'd come from the back of the theatre down to the front and he whispers whispering something to me and I was going, what, what?

56:51Why did I hear you? Just the troll of all this laughing that was going on. That should have been the first red flag. And he said to me, everyone's got number 13. It's a joke. And I was the only person in the whole theatre that had not got the joke. And there were people who had dementia there and they got the joke and I did not get the joke. The humiliation of it? Awful. but what's great is I tell the audience the story and they know what that feels like, maybe they never were quite as twatty as me but they feel for me in my twattiness because the walk back to my seat honestly took about 20 years about 20 years, it took two seconds to run down without the troll didn't get the troll wanted it so badly why is the word twat so good?

57:37it sounds so perfect it seems to have offended a lot of people Yeah, and I mean, I know that it can refer to genitals and it doesn't to me. To me, it's a gentle, a sort of a slap with a hug. It's the funniest word. And if I said to you, Fern, stop being such a twat. Yeah, I'm like, OK. Do you want me to tell you when you were a twat? Look at your face. Her face has changed now. I saw the most wonderful twatty thing you did and it was just yesterday. And I love you. Yesterday. I love you so much for this. I can't. Oh, my goodness. I love you so much for this. please have that hug first so you and all your kindness and your generosity which is huge with you she's looking at me over the top of her book she's so afraid i've got so much power at this moment um you with all your kindness decided to put on your insta stories how much you love this book yeah so this is how it went you hold up the book and you say can i just say that this book is...

58:40Oh, look at my eyebrows. God, I've put far too much. I've done something to my eyebrows. I don't know what I've done. I've put too much on there. Anyway, yeah, I must be careful not to do that. Anyway, anyway, this book is... What's that? What's that? In the middle of praising the book, you notice something about yourself like we all do and thought, oh, look at that. I'll have a little moment thinking about that. And then anyway, back to business. Marvelously twatty in every way. I used a new... Normally I use an eyebrow pencil and I use like a brush with like eyebrow dye and they were just very there.

59:23But I loved it in the middle of the thing and never a moment of you thinking, oh, I better edit that or I'll just redo it. No, just carry on. Just carry on. It doesn't matter. But that's real you. that is real you being a real person giant respect for that look I'm going to be a t 'watt every day from now until the day I die hooray to that Dawn, thank you thank you for writing the book, it's the biggest relief and it was so lovely to talk to you today lovely to be with you for any time

59:57ah Dawn God that was a joy, pure pure joy, I am so grateful for any time I get to spend with Dawn, professionally or not. She is just one of the world's wonders and I'm very, very grateful to know her and to have had that special hour chewing over some pretty big subjects. I love that. Also, I was cringing so hard when Dawn was telling me about me being a twat. I was hiding behind my notebook. I mean, have I used an eyebrow pen since? No, no, I haven't. Dawn's book, The Twat Files, is out now. When have you been a massive twat? I would genuinely love to know. We've all been a twat, it's a fact.

1:00:45Let's share what mistakes we've made and throw off all that horrible, unnecessary shame in the process. We're over on Instagram at happyplaceofficial. Tell me when you were last a twat over there. For now, a A massive thanks again to Dawn, to the producer Anushka Tate at Happy Play Studios, and to you, you bunch of twats, I love you.

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