Dua Lipa

0:01Hello and welcome to Happy Place, the show that asks what real contentment looks like to you. Today, I'm chatting to Dua Lipa. You'd think that being optimistic or positive is the way forward, but I think just looking around and seeing, you know, the state of the world, it's like if you really want to connect with people, if you really want to have close relationships or you want to really understand someone, then you have to kind of get into the things that are outside your comfort zone. You can't just put a band-aid over something really terrible happening, being like, oh, well, you should just be grateful that other things are good in your life.

0:38It's like, that kind of makes me feel a little bit nauseous instead of being like, OK, let's get to the root of this. Like, you're hurting. Let's figure it out. Dua's list of achievements as an artist is so extensive. There are all the Brit Awards, the Grammys, the MTV Music Awards, and her song New Rules has literally billions of streams on YouTube. But she's just as passionate about the rest of popular culture as she is music. Last year, she founded a brilliant newsletter called Service 95, which is basically a cultural concierge. She recommends all the latest stuff going on in style, art and society more widely.

1:15It's very cool indeed, and I very much enjoyed looking around it. We had this chat remotely when we had the bizarre moment of spring snow in the UK. So I was here experiencing that, and Dewa was in gorgeous, sunny New York. I felt like I started to get a really lovely sense of the real doer during this conversation. The one who loves yoga, meditation, art, theatre and appreciating just hanging out in the same room as her oldest friend, but who's also incredibly driven and resilient. So I very much hope that you feel the same whilst you're listening. Before we start this exciting episode with the lovely doer, I wanted to give you an update on the Happy Place Festival and app.

1:59For all of you who are going to the festival and we can't wait to see you there, we now have a festival area in our Happy Place app featuring everything you need for your visit. It includes maps, schedules, practices from our festival experts so you can have a flavour of what's to come, plus some exclusive discounts from our festival shopping partners. everything you need to get festival ready just head over to the happy place website now for more details and to download the app and for anyone who wants to make this the summer of self-love you can get 40 % off full and unlimited access to the happy place app for a whole year as part of our summer offer so whatever life throws at you you'll have us right by your side featuring a wide variety of wellness practices all in one place including breath work affirmations asmr practices to aid sleep and as you're about to hear mine and doers favorites yoga and meditation we're just best mates we love everything the same the happy place app is the perfect companion to help you prioritize your well-being and take time for you this summer head to the happy place website for more details.

3:16Summer of Love Offer ends on the 10th of September. Terms and conditions apply. Right, here it is. This is the show.

3:45Hey, Do-er. Hey, Fern. How are you doing? I'm good. How are you and where are you? Because it looks very sunny where you are. I know it looks sunny. I'm in New York. There's something about New York, even when it's freezing cold, it's blue sky. So it's nice. So nice. It's snowing here. Well, it's gone to sort of shit snow. It's like sleety, not settling snow, but it is so cold. Oh, my God. I guess you had a bit of time in the UK at the start of the year from looking on your website and sort of mildly stalking you. When you are at home, what do you like to do? How do you like to spend time? Do you try and switch off when you're in London?

4:29I'm, gosh, I'm a little bit of an extroverted extrovert. And so I really recharge around people, even though I really I love my time alone. and I've learned to really enjoy that and make sure that I have have that space and do something for myself I love to just I love to have friends around for dinner I love to go to galleries I love to go to different concerts I love to explore and find different restaurants this has kind of been the longest I've been in London for maybe like six seven years so it's been really nice but also So there's a lot of social activities. I want to see all my friends.

5:10I want to see my family. It's great. I just, I don't know, I love exploring. And even when I'm home, I think I realized that while I was touring, while I was traveling, the one thing that I felt like every time when I was coming back to London, I was such a creature of habit and going to the same places. so when I had all this time at home I was like oh I'm going to rediscover my city and see different things and branch out and go to places that I don't usually go to and that's just been amazing and like you said you know on my website with Service 95 it pushes me to just constantly want to see more things because I'm like oh then I can tell people about all this fun stuff that's happening in London so it's nice.

5:54I know we get so stuck in a rut with with what we do and we're in our home area and the only times that I do sort of touristy things are when I've got American relatives over and I'm like let's do the Tower of London and the Natural History Museum and I'm like why have I never been to the Tower of London I've lived in London for 41 years what the hell it's ridiculous I'm very fascinated in the extrovert extrovert thing because I am an introvert introvert okay and I feel absolutely drained spending time with people and it is of paramount importance and I've learned this the hard way that I have to have time where I'm completely on my own doing very little actually but completely on my own and I've always wondered if some of it is a reaction to being in the public eye and you're like mega in the public eye so I wonder how you cope with this because I find it not only draining but often I guess a bit nerve wracking being around other people who might have preconceived ideas of me or expectations of who I'm meant to be with them and actually I like being pretty quiet and that's often not what people are expecting so I feel sort of on high alert and a bit edgy when I'm around lots of people how do you deal with that if you love being in social settings and around lots of people how do you mitigate that feeling of they need me to be you know the entertainer or you know the kind of the the show person in the in the setting um I guess that's that's interesting when you put it like that because I definitely, you know, when it's like around people I don't know, there's definitely a pressure of like, you know, they're expecting me to be something.

7:39When I say I'm an extrovert, extrovert, like I, for one, I'm very organized. So my day is like down to the minute. It's how I feel like I can keep my life in control. But anytime that I have free, I like to see my friends. And so it's people that I've known for a really, really long time where I can really be myself. Like even if I'm tired or exhausted, just having a cup of tea and sitting on the sofa and catching up and getting to know, you know, what's been happening in their life and stuff that I don't necessarily get the chance to do unless it's FaceTime or Zoom or whatever. That's how I like to fill up my time.

8:10So I never really feel the pressure around people that I'm the most close with. You know, I can sit on a table and I'm not the most important one and I never want to be. And I think that also just like it keeps me really grounded. it you know I have friends around my house all the time they'll ignore me in my own house and that's exactly where I want to be you know I'm like this is this is perfect but I think just like the energy of having people around is is what I love and I think when that's like people that I haven't seen in a long time that I'm I'm more than happy to just sit on the sofa and do nothing but have like a little chat or be like oh my god I completely forgot to tell you this or something so I guess in that sense I'm happy to do it then then obviously there's like the events and the the other bits which are a little bit more nerve-wracking even for me when I go I'm an extrovert I don't necessarily feel like I'm like um an open book in that way where I'm just like blah here's my life you know this is what what's happening I'm definitely more reserved in in some aspects of people that I don't know so well but um I think yeah when I think when I think about it and my life, you know, my job is extraordinary, but I like to think of my life as normal and I try to keep it that way where I want to just like go out and do things and not really think about myself as the, you know, doer, the artist, but just like doer, you know, your mate kind of thing.

9:37Who is that doer then? What's that doer all about? I want to know about that doer. What does that doer like doing? How do you have those recharge moments? Because your life, I imagine, and from seeing it from the outside, is absolutely bananas. You know, it's really fast paced and it's really hectic and you've got all eyes on you. And there's, you know, attention, whether you want it or not, you know, sort of 24 seven. How are you just do it? How do you carve out time just to be the regular you? Maybe you feel like you need to sort of imagine do it before all the success. I sometimes think back to like little me before I started in this weird industry.

10:17Like, who is she? What did she like? What did she do? Has it been sort of hard to remember who you are without all of that craziness? Not really. I think really my friends and my family keep me extremely grounded. And I think in the beginning, things were a little bit overwhelming because I just didn't understand, you know, why there was all this attention. You know, I didn't want to leave the house if I wasn't wearing makeup in case like a paparazzi would get a picture or something. And then I'd be like, oh, like, I don't know, those things would kind of, you know, work me up. And then it would stop me from doing things that I really loved.

10:54And after a while, I was like, I just want to, you know, live my life and have fun. So I kind of just put like blinkers on like a horse. And I'm just like, I just look at like what's in front of me and I don't think about anything else. And that happened over time. But it just helped me a lot because I'm just like, you know, I just want to try and have like as many normal experiences, go to whatever restaurant I want to not have to like you know think about it too much but I also love to you know take some time for like self-care I love to do yoga every day or some kind of workout whether that's yoga pilates boxing while I'm here in New York I love to do that I've been getting into meditation over the past couple years still not like still don't think I can completely shut off all my thoughts but it's something it's impossible it's impossible the only time you can do it is when you're dead apparently perfect I'll be waiting it's hard yeah it's just like something that I do before bed to like wind down and I don't know it's it's um it's little things that that just help keep me grounded and I think that that's been yeah the saving grace has that has that become more important the more you sort of understand the nature of the job that you have and the demands that surround it that you really need to counterbalance it?

12:15Definitely. I think if I constantly thought of myself as like, oh, I can't do this because people might look at me or I can't be here or like, but it's just like, it's just not fun. It stops me from doing things that I love. It's just not the way that I see myself. And so - What kind of yoga are you into? I love vinyasa or the kind of power flow. The power flow. It's so good. It's just what I love about it is yoga is like the only time where I can actually completely shut off and I don't think about anything else. And especially if it's in a hot room and I'm sweating and disgusting and just really focusing on getting the moves and doing that, I really don't think about anything outside of those four walls.

12:59So that's really handy and nice. I'm the same. Oh, my God. Vinyasa is the one. I think it's something to do with the breathing as well, that I'm so conscious that I'm doing the right inhale and exhale, as well as the flow that I cannot mentally think of anything else. It's impossible. When you went to your first yoga class, or I don't know how you started your sort of yoga experience. I remember my first class sort of going in and thinking, I don't get it. This is impossible. It feels horrendous. And it, you know, it takes time. I think that's the thing with yoga. People sort of watch you doing a beautiful headstand or something on Instagram and think, well, why can't I do that?

13:39But it's years to get to that place where it feels natural even. Definitely. I mean, you know, working out as a whole has been like a journey for me. It's not my most favorite thing in the world. But I think once I get into the swing of it, then I'm, I really love it. It just like, it's like the first class back or like, like you said, you're like first yoga class. I used to just see it as like, oh, I have to do this because it's like good for me to work out. Whereas when I kind of started seeing the mental benefits of yoga and the meditation of it and the practice and, you know, how strong I felt, I think that completely changed my mindset.

14:18And I was like, I no longer do this because it's like a workout and it's something that everyone has to do, you know, something for our body, but it's actually, it gives you so much more. And I think when my mindset changed around working out and the benefits of it, then it became a much more pleasant experience. It is. Oh, it's very pleasant. I absolutely love it. And looking at your website, which I've had so much fun perusing around and reading the newsletters and looking at the articles and the sort of tips and the cultural tip-offs and questions that you ask, there's lots in there. how important is it for you to be inspired when you're not writing and recording is it important to dive headfirst into culture whether it's theatres art galleries is that where you get a lot of your inspiration yeah definitely I think for me I just I love to explore I love to find out about things that I don't know you know especially when I was touring but even before that like I I would always make lists of like places to go, things to see, places to eat, places to stay.

15:29And then my friends, they could be anywhere in the world and they'd be like, oh, I'm here. Like, do you have anything? I'm like, yes, here's the list. Go have fun. And that kind of actually sparked the idea for my website service 95 where I was like, OK, this is like a recommendations website, but at the same time offering stories that people wouldn't necessarily go looking for and kind of just broadening the horizons and talking about things that I'm just really curious about. There was this one article now that we're on the Happy Place podcast that I was constantly like, you know, I was on Instagram and while I'm touring and I'm, you know, on the road and working and posting pictures that I'm on social media a lot more than, for example, now when I'm just in the studio.

16:12And I just kept seeing online this like a lot of what I think is toxic positivity of you know the the idea of constantly having to be happy all the time or constantly showing this like one good side of your life and never really talking about the hardships and of course being positive is really important but it's um I think it's important to also realize that there's other layers and there was this one article I really wanted to commission and again it was because I was curious it was because I wanted to know more about it I wanted to know if other people were feeling the same way and there was a journalist an author called Whitney Goodman and she had written a book about toxic positivity and she wrote a piece for us and she was just I think she said something along the lines of like sometimes being positive is just a band-aid for a bullet wound and I thought it was a really interesting thing to say because you you'd think that being optimistic or positive is the way forward but I think just looking around and seeing you know the state of the world it's like if you really want to connect with people if you really want to have close relationships or you want to really understand someone then you have to kind of get into the things that are outside your comfort zone you can't just put a band-aid over something really terrible happening being like oh well you should just be grateful that other things are good in your life it's like that's kind of makes me feel a little bit nauseous instead of being like okay let's get to the root of this like you're hurting let's let's figure it out but anyway now now I'm going off on a little bit of a tangent but I feel like it's like things like that from daily life to then culture to things that I can apply in the service 95 meetings that then can become part of the newsletter that can then go out into the world and see what other people's opinions are.

18:05And it's just about creating a community. And I think art, culture, activism, all those things, they're all like community-based. And I think that was kind of the whole idea behind it is bringing people together and understanding people's thoughts and ideas and stuff. I liked that Toxic Positivity article. I read that one. And I think it's so important, especially with social media, where we're seeing sort of half a percent of someone's day or a tiny smidge of, you know, someone's opinion. And things do get really washed over with a sort of an emoji and a thumbs up. And it just doesn't really work like that.

18:46And you can't heal from stuff that you're not recognising. I think, you know, like you say, there's a time for positivity and to look at the bright side at times. But I think from the interviews that I've done and you know on Happy Place and the other stuff that I'm doing it seems from my guests that unless you're willing to really go there and recognize what the pain is and why it hurts you can't heal from it there's no way you can by just sort of bypassing it and going oh it'll all be all right just doesn't work like that yeah no no you're completely right I love the list element as well of your website where you're giving people tips because often people will say to me oh what's the best book you've ever read or whatever and I go blank.

19:31I have none. I can't remember a single book I've ever read. I'm like, I don't know. I've never read a book. I read all the time. I can't remember anything. My mum has, this is absolutely mad, my mum has in her handbag at all times a bit of paper with a list of her favourite songs in case someone asks her. Oh, that's sweet. That's quite cute. But it's like a very lo-fi version of your website, basically. It's hilarious. Oh, it's absolutely ridiculous. Talking about wellness, and there's lots of articles on Service 95 that cover different elements like the toxic positivity one. You've got stuff on men's mental health and nutrition and whatnot.

20:15What is wellness to you? What does it mean? You know, we have these words that get battered about, like self-care, which I think are sort of far too ubiquitous without us really delving into like, what does that even mean? What does that mean to you in your extremely busy lifestyle? How do you take care of yourself and what does wellness mean to you? Gosh, I mean, it's an interesting question because I think for everyone it means something different. And for me, I think having that one hour a day for me to do something for myself, that yoga, that workout, you know, waking up calmly, organizing my calendar down to the minute.

20:56That for me is wellness, because I know that that will keep me, you know, I know exactly what my day looks like. That keeps me really calm, keeps me really organized. I managed to do everything I need to do in a day. The meditation at night, spending time with my friends and my family and going for dinners and having a really good like work-life balance and not allowing my work to completely consume me. and yeah I think I think that for me and I think everyone can interpret it in their own way I think boundaries are important I think boundaries is a is a great form of wellness I think when you can kind of set those how are you at those I think I've become much better at boundaries as I'm getting older I just feel like I know what I need to just you know to keep myself in check and to keep myself happy and not you know maybe to say no to a couple more things I think I I was definitely a uh a person because you know there's so many opportunities would come and I I didn't want to miss out or feel like I was ungrateful that these incredible opportunities were happening so I would say yes to everything but it would also be to the point where I'd be quite tired at the end of the day and then I'd still make time and go out for a drink with my friends and then by the end of it I'm like, all right, I'm I'm dead.

22:13I need to I need to fall asleep. I'm exhausted. And so now I've got a much healthier work life balance, which is which is great. But yeah, boundaries, boundaries are important. And I think everything in moderation is good. Can you be pretty boundaried with your team in terms of if you know that you need that hour to do yoga or whatever it is? Can you do you feel I guess it's confidence, isn't it? Because I struggle with this one. Do you feel confident enough to say, look, I need an hour. I can't have my day that packed. Do you do you feel able to do that? Yeah, I definitely do. I think also, you know, the second I know what hour my time is going to happen, I put it in my diary.

22:55Everyone is alerted that that is the hour I'm not available. And then it's good because like after an hour's workout, then I can take like a slow shower. I can like get ready I can do my thing you know. Eek it out. Yeah you know I can drag it out a little bit unless of course you know I have to be on a shoot in which case it's not necessarily my time and I'm there for work and I go and do that and that's you know that's my priority on that day but I think for the most part you know I'm pretty good at setting boundaries and I have a great team who's really really supportive of that. Have you ever hit burnout?

23:28I think there have been times where I think I've gotten maybe close and and that usually happens you know releasing new music there's a lot of promo there's performances there's rehearsals there's photo shoots as you know there's a lot going on and again it's it's that I want to be able to do all these amazing and fun things that I've been looking forward to doing so I say yes to them and I go off and do them but now I think with with the way that you know my schedule is and we space things out in a way that makes me feel good now I think I'm in a in a good place to not suffer from burnout but it was definitely something in the in the beginning that I'd be worried about but I I um I don't know I have this like high octane personality so I feel like I can I can do a lot in my day.

24:17Yeah, it's serving you greatly, that energy, without a doubt. How do you feel about fame? Because you're at this level now where you're globally famous, you've got nearly 90 million followers on Instagram alone. And a large portion of those people will be mega fans, people that, you know, there is this sort of construct of fame where we put people on a pedestal when we really love them and we will have grown up having those same feelings about other people we put them on a pedestal we see them as these sort of perfect beings do you feel that you've got to live up to that level of perfection oh god I think I think fame is such a weird thing I think you know when words like um role model or you know something like that gets thrown around there's definitely a pressure because I feel like you know there's like lots of kids that are looking up to me and I I think also because I have a younger brother and a younger sister I've always tried to like set some kind of like example or like try and be be someone that they can look up to and know that's there to support them and whatever so I'm I don't think that I like try to go out my way to like be outrageous or and it's not really my my thing um I think you know for me fame is something that just came with my job but it's not something that I define myself with at all you know there's a pressure but I'm also you know I'm human I'm not perfect I'm gonna make mistakes I also have to try and live my life and if I you know if how I'm telling you is like I'm trying to live my life as normally as possible I'm trying to not shy away from having real human experiences, then, you know, it's, it's, it's fine.

26:09I think I stopped being, you know, hard on myself a long time ago on like, what people think or what people expect of me or, you know, what they want me to be or, you know, everyone has an opinion, and they'll always have an opinion, and they'll always have something to say. And I think if I just, you know, surround myself with the people I love and the people who I trust and the people who who trust me by you know vice versa then you know I'm I'm in a good place and I think the fame element doesn't really affect me in that way well it's a really brilliant approach and I'm sure one that you've had to fast track to get to because of how quickly everything has happened and how you're you know internationally known I think it's I think it's really hard you know I I still struggle if I get horrible critique I'm up for constructive criticism bring it on I want to be better I want to do my best job I want to keep growing and learning but when it's just mean or just you know unnecessary I still a part of me the logical part knows it's nonsense I don't need to take it on board and like you say you've got the ones in your life that you love and you trust and you you take heed of their advice or words of encouragement but I still I still find that one hard you know and I'd you're not the sort of person that's sort of done anything controversial or had any sorts of shitty stories written about you from as far as I can see but I still think it is a hard pill to swallow when anyone says anything negative because you sort of you question yourself and that that I think is the really tough bit of being in the public eye is having so much outside commentary I guess I think um you know of course it's that one thing of like you read one good comment and then you read one bad one and that's the one that sticks with you definitely you know that happens I think something that's actually been interesting because I'm always like oh you know social media is such a difficult place to be in especially for the younger generations but even like there's so much comparison there's so much you know opinions and comments and people being mean and hiding behind a screen or you know a little egg on Twitter or whatever but um for one I had to take myself off Twitter because that one just felt like you know people were just constantly just saying things at the expense of other people to try and get some kind of you know who could be the funniest at the expense of someone else to kind of up their social media cred or whatever.

28:46Like it just wasn't, it just stopped being appealing and fun. But one thing I also realized for myself, you know, like tabloids and online stories, like everyone will have their own rhetoric. Everyone will make something up. A lot of the time, none of it's true. And social media is the one place where I can take my own story into my own hands, you know, present myself in the way that I want people to see me for who I am. And I think that's like something good that that comes from that, because I think if people were to listen to stuff that the tabloids were saying, you know, it's it's just it's unrealistic and it's not, you know, it's not a true depiction.

29:28It's like fan fiction of what somebody else wants someone's life to be. Yeah, I think it's the best tool to take back your own story and to say things how you want them. Would you say that you have adapted to this very full on lifestyle because of the changes that you went through as a child? Because you grew up initially in the UK and then you moved to Kosovo. I think you were 11. Yeah. And went to a high school there and had to integrate with new friends and a whole new school system, etc. Before you moved back to the UK a bit later on in your teens. Do you think that set you in good stead to be pretty adaptable?

30:09You're flexible in terms of meeting new people, traveling, etc. Definitely. I think, you know, my kind of unconventional upbringing definitely helped shape me. It's interesting because when you're in it as a kid, you don't think of it as much. And now looking back in hindsight, you can see how that was such a formative experience, especially when I, like you said, born and raised in London, moved to Kosovo at the age of 11. Now I could speak Albanian. It was my first language. You know, I spoke it at home and then English I learned in school. But when I moved to Kosovo, I couldn't really read and write in Albanian.

30:47And I thought I could speak fluent Albanian, but I was like the English girl talking Albanian. so I had an accent trying to fit in you know being the new girl in school when you're 11 years old it's it's quite like um intense point in your life you know trying to make friends learning a language trying to figure out who you are in the in the midst of all of that and then at 15 moving back to London and although I had friends in London it was still it was like a new school again it was having new experiences it was making new friends and so I think that life experience has made me extremely adaptable to anything that life throws at me.

31:26It's like, okay, well, this is happening. So I'm just gonna, you know, take it in my stride and figure it out. And I think that's why I connect so much with like the idea of, you know, life really starts when you're outside of your comfort zone, because I feel like that's really where you do the most growing up, where you do the most exploring and discovering of yourself is like when you're put in uncomfortable situations and you're forced to figure it out and the things that you don't really think about as a child and you're like okay well this is just happening and I was very excited to move to Kosovo you know I was like that's my home and I was like oh and my name Dua won't be so weird for people when I go back there but also it wasn't a very common name over there either yeah it's it was interesting experiences that I I'm so grateful for because they helped me build like thick skin and helped me grow at a rapid speed.

32:19Yeah. And then you moved back to the UK without your parents because you wanted to pursue, I'm not sure if it was singing specifically at this point, but certainly sort of move into the arts. How was that moving back here? How did your parents feel about you moving back here? Now, when we talk about it, I mean, my little brother's 17 now, but when he was 15, like, I just kept turning to my parents. I was like, I can't believe I lived on my own when I was 15. and I don't know how that how I even managed to persuade you guys to let me do that and my mom always goes oh but you were a different kid and I'm like I don't know what that means but it was I think we had a lot of trust I think also the idea that I wanted to do music and there was also that thing of like you have to finish your GCSEs if you want to get into uni in London and so that was also a little thing that I could use in my in my battle for please let me go to London and live on my own and my my parents found um uh a girl whose parents they knew and so I I flat shared with her so I did they didn't feel like I was completely alone and I was constantly talking to them on the phone and they would come and visit but it was just an interesting time my friends you know then became my family so my friends that I made in school in London there was really you you know, on my first day at school, I was having lunch alone.

33:40And then two girls, Ella and Sarah came up to me and they're like, Oh, we heard you're the new girl. And we'd love to be your friend. And that was that I never let go of them. So they're like, when I talk about the friends that I hang out with who I can be totally myself, it's them who come over and I see and then my friend Rosie as well. And, you know, I just have like this really tight knit group of friends that have been there, have been my family who I've spent Christmases with when I couldn't go home, or, you know, they were always there for me in different ways. And so, yeah, I don't know if I had ever had children, then, you know, if I would let my 15-year-old live alone.

34:19I don't know. I just had this idea that I wanted to do music and I had to be in a place where everything was happening. And that was London. It wasn't, you know, Kosovo now has changed so much and it's global. But when I was living there, it was completely different. You know, you couldn't put a song up on Spotify and expect to be discovered. You know, you're in Kosovo. It's going to be very hard for people to hear you, whereas now everything is opened up so much. And I'm so deeply connected to Kosovo and everything that it has given me and helped me grow so much. And my family and I, we do a festival out there every summer called the Sail Festival.

34:58And that all kind of came, you know, started with the idea of like, I want to bring artists to Kosovo, because when I was growing up there, I could never see my favourite artists come down. And it was a way of bringing, you know, international artists and our domestic artists all together to kind of create this experience of the people there. And that's been a really, really rewarding and beautiful experience and something that I look forward to every summer. Oh my God, I bet. I bet it's so joyful. It's really fun. I mean, you're juggling so much in terms of your career as an artist, the festival that you run with your family, the website, the newsletter, the podcast.

35:33Where does your drive come from? Is that something you can see within your parents? Is it in their spirit? Have you sort of by osmosis picked that up? Yeah, I think, you know, from when I was really little, you know, my parents moved to London because of the Yugoslavian war. I just think I watched them work nonstop, do multiple jobs, go to uni in the evening. They never made me feel like I was missing out on anything you know they were really there for me in the whole and they seemed to be able to juggle all these things and still make it work I think watching them was really inspiring for me I don't know someone at one point there was an interview a long time ago someone said oh it sounds like you have an immigrant work ethic I think that's really just you know it's this kind of feeling that any moment things could be taken away from you so you want to make the most of it you want to work hard you want to be in a place where you feel like you belong and it's it's all those um parts that really make me me and it's all the experiences it's watching my parents it's the traveling around between Kosovo and London it's living alone it's all these things have pushed me and and helped me find that that drive and that passion and that curiosity and that thing it just keeps me going every day I I absolutely love it and that doesn't lessen with the more successful you get because you've ticked so many things off if you had written sort of a life list I'm pretty sure you would have ticked them all off you know the people the artists that you've collaborated with worked with the the units of albums you're selling the tours you're able to put on do you still have ambition or or goals that you sort of set for yourself massively definitely there's there's a lot of things that I feel like I haven't done yet and that I'm looking forward to doing and I'm working on new music at the moment and you know it's exciting to have dreams and goals but again dreams and all my dreams terrify me and scare me and why is that I just um it's again it's like doing something that's outside of my comfort zone pushing a boundary in a way that people wouldn't necessarily expect me to try something different and I think that is something that I just I I love doing so yeah and I and I'll just keep doing it for as long as it makes me really happy yeah that's the most important thing isn't it I think if you're enjoying it that is that is success rather than it being something that's quantifiable or I don't know something you tick off a list it is just about you know luckily really enjoying what you do it's so brilliant um another goal you set yourself alongside running the website is your podcast at your service which I listened to some lovely episodes I really like the Dan Bekay one the ex editor at large at the New York Times that was fascinating what an amazing person he is um when I'm doing these interviews and I guess for as long as I've been interviewing people I've always uh I guess the desire is to really get to like the most human part of who that person is so looking beneath the the job or the title or the the success whatever it is and getting to the really human bit what is it that fascinates you about interviewing people or what do you want to discover from your guests I think for me it's exactly the same thing it's it's finding out how people got to where they are the story behind their their experience how I can help assist get that you know story out to a or to just more people I suppose and I think it's been a really interesting experience because I've been so used to being the person getting interviewed on the other side so it was a very scary thing to come to terms with of like okay now I have to interview someone and how do I make it really interesting how do I get you know how do I ask questions that maybe they don't necessarily get asked all the time or how can I dig a little bit deeper and I I think it was amazing because people were so generous and so giving with their stories.

39:47But at the same time, like I learned so much, you know, my first ever episode was with Olivia Roustan, who's the creative director of Balmain. And through our conversation, it just got to a point where he was talking about how his whole perception of perfection had changed, you know, after an accident that he had had. And, you know, there was so many, then I had a conversation with Dan Levy and we were talking about how failure isn't such a bad thing. And I think it's so great to have these incredible affluent people talking about failure because you put them on such a pedestal, like you said, and you see them as these perfect beings.

40:29but you have to also realize everything that goes on behind that because there are downfalls there are issues there are problems there are troubles that happen when I was speaking to Monica Lewinsky you know she's an incredibly strong person with everything that she went through but I think what was really fascinating to me was how much time effort and like financial investment that she put into her mental health and and and it really really showed in the way that she held herself throughout the whole interview. And then, yeah, it's again about creating community, creating a space for people to be able to connect, you know, with Riz Ahmed.

41:05I felt like we had a bond, you know, over our immigrant experience. And that was also really touching and interesting to hear him talk about his experience. And I know that so many people that listened to that episode were just like really moved by that because you wouldn't think that someone like Riz Ahmed would go through such trying times as well. And so, I don't know, I get a lot from this podcast and it was a very scary thing for me to start even thinking about. I'm going to do season three now soon as well. And everything that I've done with season one and two has been really doing a deep dive into people's lives.

41:43And I think for season three, I would love to go into it more topic based and dig into one topic and just do a deep dive on that. So that's going to be interesting as well. And I'm excited. That's so cool. Have you found it a relief to be on the other side? Because you don't have to really, I don't know, keep sharing stories about yourself or talking about things you're doing. I find it such a relief doing this part of the interview. I love it. And I'm a control freak. So I like to be in control. I'm like, all right, I'm, I'm going to steer this over here now. And you can't do that as much when you're being, you know, you have to do those horrible promo days where you probably have to sit on Zoom or in a hotel room.

42:23and have numerous people back to back coming in, asking you the same bloody questions that you've got to answer. Has it felt like a bit of a relief asking the questions? Yeah, it's definitely a relief. It's also because it's like my own platform. I don't feel like anyone's trying to catch me out. So I'm so much more free, even with my own stories. You know, I'm so happy to talk about my own experience for that connection with the guests so we can like dig in deeper and talk about it and there's never at any point in my podcast am I trying to get a headline or catch someone out or anything so it's a very like freeing experience to just talk about it so freely and um yeah you know I I don't like to gate keep the good shit in this form on the podcast on service 95 and the recommendations and everything like I'm so happy to just like be very open and and free with it and it I don't know it gives me a lot of confidence and joy and I love being on the other side of things so well you create yourself a really lovely safe space where you get to explore stuff on your terms which I think is needed now more than ever especially for someone in your position where you know you have to go and perform on big stages or tv shows where you know it's it's it's there's an audience already there and then you've got to perform for them or be there for them to create your own world your own safe space where you can explore things on your terms.

43:50I think that's really liberating. Yeah, I feel very lucky that I get to do it and to have all these new experiences that I never thought would come into my world or cross with the music and stuff. I love having all these other things alongside it. It really, it makes me very happy. This is the most basic question in the world, but I'm asking it because I'm genuinely interested. Who would be your dream guest on the podcast? I mean I get asked that all the time and I'm like oh for fuck's sake I don't even know anymore I've like well I've been lucky that I've ticked a lot of them off the list you've done a lot I'm like oh my god I sometimes I think I don't know and I have to really dig to think about it I think um who did I think I thought of someone yesterday that I'd like to have on now I've got I'm doing that thing where I can't think of my favorite book I can't think of a human I can't think of any humans I've got no humans in my brain I can't think of anyone it's really tough because a lot of um a lot of my like dream guests that I had like a big list for I asked them for season three and so I have those things like swirling around in my in my head oh I know I want Elton John you can help me I can help I've never interviewed I've I've interviewed him but not for the podcast and we're both from pinner so there's my in okay that's right we're from the same town he used to play in a pub opposite my granddad's florist that was called dandelion so we're like we're so tight he just doesn't even know it we really are oh my god well look do i i would like to give you more than an hour of your day to go and do yoga or whatever you want so i'm gonna i'm gonna halt the interview so you can go and have more free time because you jolly well need it thank you so much for being on Happy Place and just the best of luck with all of your brilliant endeavours outside of your music career because it's very impressive indeed.

45:45Thank you so much, Fern. I really appreciate you taking the time and doing this with me. Doer, it was absolutely my pleasure. I love that we could connect over so much. Maybe not the extroverted extrovert thing, but definitely the yoga and the meditation, art and all that jazz. massive thanks again to you for your time doer service 95 is the name of doers newsletter you can sign up for all of her recommendations at service 95.com and if it's book recommendations you're after you can come and join the happy place book club we're on instagram at happy place book club and we have a newsletter as well do check it out huge thanks again to doer to the producer and ushka tate at rethink audio and to you bloody brilliant people chat soon lovelies Thank you.