Ella Mills: Victim mentality, apathy, and fad diets

0:00Hello and welcome to Happy Place. I'm Fern Cotton and this is the show that helps you pinpoint what matters to you. Today I'm chatting to Ella Mills. I hadn't wanted to take any personal responsibility for where I was and it's not that being ill was my fault but I lived with this sense of it's not fair so I definitely had quite a kind of victim mentality. Ultimately the only person in charge of your life is you. I think learning the more we can internalise the solution and the idea that us and us alone are in charge of the outcome of our life. It was really realising that and that ultimately it had become so clear that no one else could do anything.

0:41Ella's an award winning cookery author and the founder of Deliciously Ella. She's launched over 100 plant based food products into over 10 ,000 shops across the UK. And she has a restaurant in London called Plants 2. She's been on the show before and we did a deep exploration of her backstory then. But today, I wanted to catch up on where she's at now, both in terms of her personal life and really importantly, where she feels we're at as a society when it comes to food. We seem to be in this really strange and slightly concerning point where we're forcing ourselves into defined food camps. We have to sort of swear allegiance to a particular way of eating, which I think then breeds a lot of judgment from other people and create sort of barriers and divisiveness.

1:32And what it's doing is it's stopping us coming together to share knowledge and to swap ideas and to enjoy food. I think we're realizing that we're just all trying to do our best, aren't we, to look after our minds and our bodies in amongst all the chaos of modern life. That's certainly what I'm trying to do. And I have no judgment on anyone with what anyone eats. It's none of my business, quite frankly. But this is why I love Ella's approach. She is very understanding of the realities of our demanding lives and knows that building healthy eating habits has to fit easily into all of that. Her latest recipe book is called Healthy Made Simple, and it does exactly what it says on the tin.

2:10Oh my God, I've made so many things from this book, So many beautiful curries, so many beautiful pies, the odd delicious little sweet treat too. It is such a good book.

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4:27Right, let's do it. Here's the show.

4:50Ella, so lovely to see you. And you, thank you for having me. You last came on the podcast, I think it was about three years ago now, and I actually listened back to a bit of it, and we looked a lot at your life and your life story. Today I want to go in a different direction, because there are really big themes that I want to explore with you today. But before we get to it, and I know having loved, as you can see, there's a sort of spaghetti mark or something on this cookbook. I've used it so much. But your new book, Healthy Made Simple, you say at the start, it can almost feel a bit laborious to go back onto your original story.

5:23Yet it is important to contextualize everything that you're doing in the mission you're on. So in a sort of non-reductive way, in a sort of nutshell, tell us how, for listeners that don't know, how you stumbled across this mission that you're on. yes absolutely I know it's funny I find myself so reluctant to kind of keep talking about myself to a degree I'm sure you feel the same sometimes with your work but equally that personal starting point of why you became interested in helping other people and talking about health and well being and your mental health is it's it does feel like it's the grounding that's so important um but for me that was back in 2011 which I can't quite believe it was that long ago now and I just got very very ill out of nowhere I spent the best part of that year in and out of hospital and I was diagnosed with a condition that impaired the functioning of my autonomic nervous system so all these things that should be automatic like controlling your blood pressure your digestion circulation want of a better term this was not medical was just completely out of whack so everything was completely dysregulated and as a result I had extreme chronic fatigue fatigue dizziness um I would sleep for 18 hours a day I had constant pain I lived with pins and needles all over my body I had um chronic infections that was on antibiotics for three years for sort of nothing was working and no one really knew what to do about it so I took lots and lots of repurposed medication that year none of it really worked I mean at times you're on like 25 different meds yeah I peaked at 25 different meds a day and I was in such a it's really interesting looking back on it now and also having spent the best part of 12 years learning about health and well-being and while that started with food now I have such a interest in that more 360 approach and our mental health and I think at that point I didn't really realize that apathy was a symptom of depression but I was so apathetic I was so checked out at that point that I almost didn't register that I was on that much medication um I was I sort of was disembodied from myself to some degree because I found it I think looking back at it so difficult to accept that that was who I was and what my life was that I yes just sort of almost turned off mentally and sort of felt nothing a complete numbness but that numbness also meant I didn't really have any impetus to look at anything else in my life and and anything else I could do that would help me and it was when I reached what I feel was my complete rock bottom that I realised for the first time really in a year where I actually was and how bad it was and in that it was so clear like I was never going to be able to do anything I thought I'd do in my life and I didn't have any really big career goals I didn't know what I wanted to be or what I wanted to do but I did know you know I wanted to have a job I wanted to live independently I wanted to have the option to have children and do all these things I had to some degree taken for granted and it was really clear I wasn't going to be able to do any of that on that current trajectory and that's what got me interested in what other people had done I started reading people's stories all over the world and how they'd use facets of diet and lifestyle to change the way that their health was and I was so inspired by it and I thought if it worked for them maybe it will work for me so I'll give it a go but I couldn't find any of the recipes I wanted because back then which I know seems so strange to say in 2024 we weren't having these conversations about the link between what we eat and how we feel and our health certainly not in the mainstream you couldn't find all these recipes for just like very simple day-to-day whole food focused plant-based meals um so I taught myself to cook and that was the mission it was always about trying to see this other way of approaching food and could you put simple natural whole food ingredients in the middle of your plate and do it in a way that was actually enjoyable and delicious.

9:18Do you find it disconcerting looking back that considering you were on so much medication and you had so many symptoms and so many things that weren't working as they should, that the first port of call wasn't what's your diet, what your stress level's like? Yeah, I mean, look, I think it speaks to a lot of the challenges that we have in our system today, which is that although the illness was not well understood, it was only had been quite recently sort of coined as a term and as an illness in and of itself there was I think only two doctors in the UK specializing and it was very niche and I understand that there weren't kind of clear roots and understandings at that point but equally I had things like terrible acid reflux changing my diet would have definitely helped me with the acid reflux instead at 21 I was taking medication for acid reflux so I do think when I look back on it there's some things I understand weren't concrete and people didn't understand enough to necessarily recommend and then there's other things that I just can't get my head around why we're not quicker to interject with all these different tools that are now available to us and they are now so available I mean you can get a thousand and one resources for free at the touch of your fingertips yeah exactly I think people do feel much more empowered by having I mean maybe overwhelmed might be the case now that there's so much information it's about distilling it to go what works for you but you by trial and error worked that out so clearly changing your diet and approaching your lifestyle differently has helped you completely you're not on any medication anymore to be clear how much of the illnesses you're experiencing do you think were due to eating processed foods slash stress it's so hard to know and ultimately I I don't know I don't know what caused it no one knows what caused it but if I look back on it um there were definitely a lot of quite complicated heavily stressful factors in my life and it's really interesting isn't it like I would never see myself as a public figure but having somewhat of a kind of public profile I'm very conscious of what is your story to tell and what is not and um but yes I think there was some very complicated facets of my childhood that had created I think my nervous system was basically stuck in fight or flight and it's taken me up until now when I've started to understand much more about how the body works and what creates that and about how your brain develops in childhood and all the rest of it to understand that maybe that was the way that I felt and try and unlearn a lot of that behavior which was definitely detrimental to my outlook and happiness um so I'm sure that there is a part of that in there undoubtedly but to what degree yeah you can't exactly measure that but it's one of those things you know if someone had told me at the time this is going to be the best thing that ever happens to you you know I would have wanted to punch them in the face you know someone to tell you that your lowest point where you're not really sure if it's worth living anymore it's going to be the best moment of your life when you look back on it a decade or so later it's so hard to fathom you know I was so isolated I was so lost I felt I had nothing and yet honestly getting ill has ended up opening up my life in the most extraordinary way both from creating this career centered around a purpose which I think is a real gift but also introduced me to my husband so that's our kids and it's you know there's nothing in my life that I think would be the same had I not have gotten out yeah it's so fascinating and I I'm deeply interested in these rock bottom moments because I absolutely feel the same like if I hadn't been mentally rock rock bottom and totally lost and definitely apathetic about many things in my life but really unsure of like what am I doing and and with a huge lack of self-esteem like everything that rolls into feeling super low I can now look back not with complete peace but I can see how it was one of the best pivotal moments in my entire life how did you go from rock bottom to making any change because I think there will be people listening to this now who are rock bottom you know I've met many of them when I've been to the happy place festival and you have these amazing connections and conversations about it could be one episode or just the podcast or whatever and I've gained a lot myself I think from not only my own podcast but listening to other people's and having an insight into how you create change but when you're rock bottom one of the hardest things to do is just take that first step in any direction you're kind of stuck and it feels very stagnant so what looking back do you think your first step was into going well I know I'm rock bottom but there has to be some change or some momentum yeah it's a really good question and I'm sure it's not one with a kind of universal answer by any means I think in my case it was almost accepting that I was at rock bottom that was the most helpful thing I think up until that point I hadn't wanted to take any personal responsibility for where I was and it's not that being ill was my fault but ultimately I I lived with this sense of it's not fair of why me you know looking at everybody else be it people I had been at uni with at school with my siblings and thinking well they get to do this they get to do that and I would you know refresh my Facebook page constantly and I was almost I think quite addicted to watching other people's lives and thinking this is so unfair why has this happened to me so I definitely had quite a kind of victim mentality and outside of that it was just this sort of extreme apathy and just wanting everybody else to solve the problem so you know I wanted the doctor to have the pills that I could just take and you know be a magic cure and I wouldn't really have to do anything and I don't think I realized that was my mindset to this degree but looking back on it it definitely was and you know I remember my dad saying you are depressed you need to go and talk to somebody and I just couldn't I just I couldn't even take responsibility to a degree for that because I didn't I couldn't accept that there was just one other thing that I was struggling with and not coping with outside of the physical health the idea that it was my mental health as well I just I just couldn't accept it so I sort of couldn't accept any level of responsibility as to what was going on and whether or not I could play a role in it because I felt it was so unfair to be where I was and it was really in waking up I think to that and realising how bad things were and what life would look like if I continued where I was and realising which is something I've tried to live with so much every day since that ultimately the only person in charge of your life is you and the only person that will have any impact on the outcome of your life is you and it's so normal I think as humans to want other people to help us and it's so normal to try and pass responsibility over but ultimately like I think learning the more we can internalize the solution and the idea that us and us alone are in charge of the outcome of our life to a varying degree but I think for most of us you know almost all the way it was really realizing that and that ultimately it had become so clear that no one else could do anything no one else could make this go away and it was up to me and fundamentally up to me alone not that you can't lean on other people for support but ultimately you're the driver of it and I think it was in doing that and it's so interesting I still remember being at my parents and being in my room and being on WordPress and registering deliciousiella.com you know I really it's like a very visceral memory and I felt a sense I hadn't felt in over a year at that point nothing had changed it's not like my health was suddenly back but I had just felt this sense of empowerment like I am doing something and as you said it's I think it's so easy to underestimate how difficult that first step is but how impactful just one step forward is and doing anything doing anything and you can create an amazing ripple effect from that um and just cooking that first recipe and it wasn't complicated it wasn't even very good but it was this sense of like no I I'm back you know in the driving seat basically and that sense of empowerment it's really powerful and I think that's what it was for me was just that I and apathy was definitely my number one symptom from a mental perspective and I think it was almost lifting myself outside of that apathy and therefore realizing where I was.

18:27Apathy is such an interesting one I don't think I've talked about it anywhere near enough on this podcast but I think it is a huge symptom for many people out there and something we don't really know how to talk about and we don't really understand perhaps how to move through it but purpose has clearly been the way to get you out of that rut of feeling like what's the point nothing matters because this is bigger than you this cause is bigger than you as an individual like yes eating it in this plant-based way and eating whole foods and learning how to cook and have that connection with your food has allowed your physical symptoms to platter and you're feeling really good you're not medication, but actually this sense of purpose seems to be a huge portion of what's led you to feeling mentally better.

19:14Oh, a hundred percent. I always like, delicious yellow completely saved me. And it's not just from the sense of exactly learning to cook and, you know, open up this whole interest in our health from a holistic perspective. And yes, that really helped me. And it sort of, I guess, a more tangible, concrete way. But what really helped me was feeling like I had a purpose in my life again and there was a reason to be here and that you're you were contributing something that was beyond you and whenever I found this journey for want of a better word in growing delicious yellow and building it whenever I found it difficult which has been many times um it's always coming back to that and it's people's stories like what you were saying at the happy place festival I'm sure the emails and things you get in after your show of people who listen to it and at that moment in time that's the conversation that they needed I just believe so strongly that people inspire people and it's this sense of if you can do it I can do it there's something about these different conversations where you have something in there that resonates that you relate to and it's this idea that maybe that will help me too and it's an amazing ripple effect yeah and I remember just so quickly after I started writing I would start to get messages from people around that topic.

20:32And, you know, thank you for normalizing this. You know, I don't feel by myself. But those people stop me from feeling by myself too. And I don't know if, you know, especially people that followed the brand in the early days almost realized to what extent they enabled that as well. Yeah, it's so, the beautiful transaction of being honest with each other in any capacity, I think we really underestimate. I think so often we internalize all this stuff in our head of the worries we're having, the feelings we're having. And as soon as we say it out loud, there's that instant connection and you don't feel alone.

21:05It could be your friend you're talking to, whoever else it is, doesn't feel alone. And it's freeing for you. Like I even have it, say I could be in the middle of doing a podcast or whatever, or do it like having a meeting and have all of these worries going on in my head about this and that. And am I, you know, just and insecurities and just saying them out loud is just the way to just get rid of it all and just go this is how I'm feeling this is what's going on in my head right now it's such a powerful connection do you know what I think it's really important to say is um when we talk about purpose it can I guess and I've certainly felt completely purposeless at points in my life when you hear other people talk about purpose you can really create create it um into this sort of fantasy of they've got purpose it must feel amazing and it's just all so fluid and easy having purpose is fucking hard having purpose is great and it makes you feel alive and brilliant it's not easy it's not a simple linear path to anywhere I think it's a really complicated choice that you make to follow something that you feel in your gut really passionate about oh totally and I think certainly I look at us in the way that particularly we've built a business over the last decade goodness me it would have been easier without that relentless purpose where I'm like we will not do this we will not do that we're going to do it our own way we're going to do it totally differently to everyone else and all industry norms and you're consistently pushing water up a hill and that's really challenging and I think also when it matters that much to you you know you want it to be perfect and I think that's definitely I'm a very all-or-nothing person And so I definitely kind of swing between, you know, 4 ,000 million trillion percent.

22:51And oh, my gosh, I'm so burnt out. I just want to lie down in a quiet room and become quite apathetic again quite quickly.

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24:03let's add into that complicated you know motion of having a purpose the word food which seems so loaded whenever anyone starts talking about food people start to take it really personally it feels like there's a lot of anger behind some of the rhetorics that are flying around it's like wow I just feel like the food conversation feels like one of the I don't know most disruptive places at the moment and I feel nervous to talk about how I eat and what I eat and what I believe in with food but this is your mission you're there's no way out for you you're talking about it and that isn't easy to do publicly no I mean I think you're right food's a really interesting topic because we obviously all eat every single day and it yet it's so emotive and it's so nuanced and it's so layered and it's so complicated and it feels like we are collectively in such a bind around the way that we eat the way we talk about what we eat what it symbolizes to all of us and it does feel wildly over complicated but also like we're slightly trapped yeah and the way I see it at least is that we need to take not a step back but like a leap you know we need to run miles and miles back in the other direction and just take a deep breath and really really simplify it and you know over the last decade or so that I've been doing this and you will have seen it all too I'm sure through your work is that it's great because a decade ago we didn't talk about the fact that food was really important for our health it wasn't a commonly understood premise that what we eat impacts our body which is strange you know and I remember doing interviews when people be like sorry sorry sorry let me just check you're saying what you put into your body will affect your body you're like yeah that's the equation yeah and they're like wow madness and you just I look back on it and I'm like oh my god I just cannot believe the level of skepticism with which we used to talk about this yeah you know it's that that it's also madness but to some people that's again still a difficult conversation but I think what's happened as we've started to talk about the connection between what we eat and how we feel as we've suddenly got this like tribal community which is so unnecessarily complicated where everyone has these impassioned beliefs of what you should do and every single day you open up the newspaper and it's like you should have the Nordic diet the Mediterranean diet the next thing and I saw it and I think it was a week or so ago I'm pretty sure it was something around the sort of Icelandic part of the world and it was like this is the root you know this is the diet and ultimately they're all the same they're all telling you to eat less ultra processed food and more simple everyday ingredients loads of fresh fruit and vegetables and ultimately in that sense you kind of I also want to bang my head against the wall when I open that people like this is the secret and it's like it's the same yeah you're just swapping that one had a little bit of pork instead of a bit more meat in the Mediterranean diet or you know the blue zones where they're mostly plant-based so they're eating more chickpeas not all the rest of it's like fundamentally we're talking about the same thing here which is that it's entirely un-ultra-processed they're not eating emulsifiers and preservatives and stabilizers and flavorings they're eating real food yeah and ultimately in that sense I don't know why we're all arguing which is why I'm desperate for us to kind of take such a leap backwards from this bizarre world we've created over the last decade which I think is also so detrimental in so many ways to people actually taking a step forward with changing how they eat because you feel you have to subscribe to one certain plan or one certain way of doing it and you need a label and it needs to be clearly defined and ultimately you know it's a personal decision but for most people that is entirely unrealistic like the food landscape we live in means that almost everything on every shelf is ultra processed if you swap that for eating fresh food you are winning it doesn't matter how you do it yeah and again I know some people really disagree with me on that because obviously you know everything that I do is about eating more plants so they want me to come out and say you should become 100 % vegan or 100 % plant-based I just don't believe that because I don't think that's realistic for most people that's personal decision for me I like that that suits me what I'm about is getting people to eat more plants let's eat more broccoli more lentils more chickpeas less ultra processed food but ultimately the balance in which you do it how you do it it's up to you and people's lives are just so busy they're juggling so many things you have so many responsibilities even just cooking at home two or three times more a week would be a amazing for your health but be not easy to do and not easy to swap so i think this like just dogmatic you're doing it wrong i'm right finger pointing shouting each other throwing stones from one diet camp to another when fundamentally all you're doing is telling people to eat more whole food ingredients and less ultra processed food you're all on the same page yeah exactly but it just makes it feel so complicated and so unnecessary and i feel like it puts up so many barriers which we desperately in need of dismantling from a collective perspective because we know the trajectory of our current health because of the fact that you know one in five of us eat 80 percent of our calories from ultra processed food like we know what damage this is doing and we need to change that we're not going to change it if we keep making people feel that every single week there's a different celebrity diet or popular diet and this is the list of rules and regulations and it's this or it's nothing and I always just feel you know if you are wanting to make changes in your life and that goes with how you eat but other habits whether that's meditating running whatever it is that you're interested in if you don't feel you could be doing what you start tomorrow 10 years from now don't start no you know it's not going to work anything that works is genuinely sustainable because it's genuinely enjoyable and it's actually also plausible within your life and your life is likely quite busy and so the idea I think that we've just got wellness so associated with these really really complicated dogmatic ways of living for me is quite problematic and it's the same with like I have loads of interesting research around cold water swimming and all the rest of it but I think what's happened is that people now feel ultimately we live in a 24-hour news cycle we have TikTok we have all the algorithms and it's much much more interesting to watch someone go for a plunge in the freezing cold Arctic lake than it is to watch someone, you know, do something with a tin of lentils or peel a carrot.

30:29And I think what's happened is that for now we associate wellness with needing to do these slightly more niche pursuits. It's more interesting to read about adaptogens and all these sorts of things than it is, again, to talk about a tin of lentils from your local supermarket. Like that's not very interesting. And I think we'll try and make it as interesting as possible. But again, I think that's part of the challenge it's now people look at it and they're like I have to follow this set of rules I need a nice bath in my garden I need to get up at four o 'clock in the morning and do this and journal and meditate and do 10 000 steps and exercise and sweat and do you can't do anything oh my gosh you've got a full-time job you've probably got other responsibilities on top of that and so I think it's just this wild simplification that we need which is ultimately like just get outside a bit more just walk a bit more try and sleep a bit more try and eat more vegetables get off screens get off screens it's so important and actually all we're doing is reversing time and probably going back to when our grandparents were cooking in the 50s or 60s I mean I think you know we've all seen I was born in the early 80s so I was definitely and I had a very busy well working mum and dad my mum must have had no three jobs at any one point so she was like put a pizza in the oven you know chicken nuggets alpha bites like all the shit that was around in the 80s and 90s which made her life easier we ate and so did all of my friends and it was just the norm but things like you say have gone so far in that extreme that now you go to the supermarkets and it's hard to find something unless you're going straight to the fruit and veg section which is unprocessed let's just get some basics covered what's the difference between been processed and ultra processed first of all there's a few different definitions but i think just on a personal level the easiest way to think about it is pick something up and think can i make this at home just look at the ingredients and be like right have i got that emulsifer in my house no do i have that preservative no have i got those three e-numbers no the market's uncertain revenues tied and hiring on hold that's why results driven companies are using Upwork to keep work moving.

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33:54Valid through 10-1. Member offer excludes Massachusetts, Maryland, Wisconsin, New Jersey, and Florida. Installed by independent contractors. Exclusions apply. See Lowe's.com for more details. you know or could i make it look like this at home you know you also look look at stuff and you're like goodness me what how many processes has that been through to make it look like this whereas if you look at something and you're like i've got all those ingredients or i could just buy all those ingredients in my local supermarket those are kitchen cupboard ingredients and i could bake it or blend it etc like a soup yeah and turn it into that then that's that's fundamentally the difference.

34:30Yeah. Can you make it at home? Do you have those ingredients? And the big problem being that ultra processed foods are way cheaper, usually than non processed foods than organic vegetables and fruit, etc. And obviously, I mean, this is why your book is brilliant is that your recipes are quick. So you're making something and you can batch cook and you can put things in the freezer. But actually, ultra processed foods are there for a reason. They're cheap. And you pop them in the oven and they're already made. That's the barrier it seems we need to get over because the food system is screwed and also not that we've probably got time to go into this today but the whole farming system for farmers they're under unbelievable pressure underpaid the whole system from start to the table is screwed I mean I'm not here asking what the answer is but we need to acknowledge that that we're in a deeply awful place when it comes to how we're receiving our food 100 % I think the food system as you said from top to bottom anywhere that you look at it is entirely broken and I think it's really important to acknowledge that for two reasons a because we need such large-scale intervention to actually change it but b because I think therefore if you are finding yourself eating so much of these sorts of ultra processed foods it's not your fault and I think that's really really important you know I think we spent the last 10 years talking about does it matter what we eat and I think we've now unequivocally answered that yes it matters what we it really impacts our health we need to eat more fresh food but now the question has shifted to how on earth do we allow people to do that because if you do you maybe someone's listening to this in their car and they stop at a petrol station other than buying an apple or a banana which is probably going to take up sub one percent of the footprint of that space or bottles of water everything else almost universally in there it's not even neutral it's actively quite bad for you Now, the problem with saying that is that if you take that soundbite out of context, people are trying to say, oh, that's a disaster.

36:29No, there's nothing wrong with having one chocolate bar every now and again. That's not that isn't the problem. The problem is the fact that it's about two thirds of what we eat now. So we're kind of completely overcrowding our diet with foods that are detrimental to our health. And as a result, we're not eating the foods that are good for us. If you're mostly eating fresh fruits, vegetables, whole foods, etc. Nothing's going to happen if you eat one or two of these ingredients. that isn't the problem the problem is that our ratio is completely the wrong way around so a third of us get our five a day two-thirds of our calories from ultra processed food we need to switch it yes um but that's why i think it's really important to acknowledge the fact that if you are busy you're time poor you go around any meal deal etc you know that bread has multiple multipliers in like a sandwich doesn't have six ingredients the sandwiches has 30 ingredients 40 ingredients and it's really starting when you start to look at that but it's also very overwhelming of looking at how you're going to change it so I do think it's so important to acknowledge how difficult the food landscape is because so much onus is put in the individual to change their habits and I just feel for me that's why kind of what we do at Delicious Yellow is so multi-pronged I think I can give people every recipe idea under the sun but ultimately if everything you find on shelf is full of those ultra processed ingredients it's not going to help you no um and so it's been really interesting trying to see can you make these these products without using those ingredients which ultimately what we've realized is that you can and so why aren't we and as you said it's because it's cheaper it's because it's quicker to do it that way you have ultimate uniformity and it's going to be so interesting to see how the landscape changes I think you know honestly over the next 10 20 30 years I don't think we're going to see much change in the immediate future that's depressing yeah but it's so complicated I mean look I think controversially or not i think this the ultra process food conversation would take a similar route to smoking yeah which is that ultimately you know it's such an enormous industry and it's you start to look at so many of the products on shelf and they cannot be reformulated you know you take a very popular sweet and they'll have say 15 or 16 ingredient and there's there's one which is one of the uk's most loved ones and it only has one ingredient from a food source which is coconut oil everything else is a non-food so you can't reformulate that product there's no way there are other things that as i said like we make cereal bars i look at the other cereal balls i mean you just don't need to add these ingredients flavor it with food not flavorings there's no need to add that emulsifier etc it makes the processes easier but it's not necessary so you can see this whole suede of the shelves that could be reformulated but then you see actually the majority of it it really can't you can't make sweets without adding 100 layers of ultra processed foods you look at like the crisp bile and you'd end up with basically ready salted only yeah so how does that work because these companies are massive employers they're important to the economy supermarkets run on tiny margins they can't afford to stop stocking all these products and at the moment we're just kind of moving issues around so the legislation to stop certain things being sold at the front of store means lots of companies have just reformulated and instead of having sugar they've just got more ultra processed food to add the same flavors etc etc so for me it's not solving any of the problems and ultimately to solve the problem you'd need large-scale legislation like we had with smoking and I think we're just at this interesting point now where there is this much larger scale awareness of ultra processed food it's about two thirds of the UK feel that they're understand it they're interested in it and I think you start to reach a tipping point where people you can't unlearn what you've learned and you want something new and ultimately the only way to change that is through government legislation and i think it'll be very interesting to see where we get to as i said but it's going to take decades because it's it's so complicated to unwind yeah and you can't just kind of pull those foods out because as you were saying if you go into the supermarket that's the vast majority of what's on shelf and the problem is is the food is so much cheaper and obviously in a kind of economic climate that we're in at the moment it's really difficult to talk about that but we spend much less on food in this country than we used to and we spend much less than most of Europe does so we spend kind of between eight and eleven percent of household income on food and in Europe it's kind of high teens so and that's more what we used to spend you know decades ago so I think it is interesting where we've gotten to with our food landscape and how difficult it is to unwind but I think the thing that we found interesting building Delicious Yellow and we've done over a hundred products now we've never used one of those ingredients so I just look at it and I think there are lots of in cases where I just feel there's not really any excuse for for using them at this point and all the marketing and all the labeling is so confusing I mean like Coco Pop says on the front of pack supporting your family's health that's really difficult for people isn't it it's cheap it's really appealing to kids and it's telling you that it's good for your health and I think that's my point like it's not any individual person's fault for finding this landscape almost impossible to decipher where those foods are colorful those foods are cheap you know your family will eat them they're you know shown to be pretty addictive and then on the other hand the world of wellness feels fragmented and complicated and all the kind of topics that get picked up are kind of more niche and weird and wacky because that's more interesting from a new cycle clickbait algorithm perspective and so we've sort of lost this middle ground of like eat some carrots cook with a tin of lentils go for a 15 minute walk on your lunch break maybe do five minutes of breathing when you get home these simple everyday tools that feel plausible for decades and decades and decades we've sort of lost that in this myriad of shouting at each other basically and also because everything that you've just talked about which is highly problematic for so many reasons has been normalized we therefore can look at someone like what you're doing and go because you're the anomaly and you're going down the harder route haven't you've got your own factory now and you're making all of these products in a totally different way to the rest of the food industry you stick out like a sore thumb in my eyes for the absolute like best reason and to lead the way and if anyone's interested in this conversation especially when we look at farmers we did a great episode with Andy Cato who's doing a similar thing in the bread world and I love what he's doing and sort of trying to change the landscape of farming but you know you and you know all of us who are trying to do something positive in terms of improving people's and my own mental and physical health you are exposed to all sorts of critique and I I actually commented on one of your Instagram posts at the start of the year very passionately actually I think I wrote like way too much but I was like it was amazing I was so angry I was so angry but you had put a post up because I won't necessarily name the guy but a journalist seething journalist had used you and what's the dart player Luke Littler.

43:18Luke Littler. Luke Littler. And had basically put you out there together as like one entity, saying you were both highly problematic in these extreme food diets. It's like, what are you doing? There's nothing extreme about it. You're talking about just picking. Oh, no, he said I was peddling a death cult. A death cult? No, it was bone stupid narcissism peddling a death cult. Wow. Wow, wow, wow. I mean, this is how messed up our culture around food is. that we could call what you're doing a death cult. Yeah, it's extraordinary. It really is. And I think it's been so interesting. And I found that very difficult early on in my career.

43:57I think, you know, like you were saying at the start, in your own experience, definitely what came to light for me was I'd always had quite low self-esteem. And then when I got ill, you know, what was already low self-esteem became kind of just, you know, absolutely like gone, just none, like a 0 % self-esteem. And so I feel like that was taking me a long, long, long, long, long time to build back up. And I think early on in my career, I just didn't have the confidence to stand up for myself in any shape or form. And I found it very difficult to respond to these conversations and these comments.

44:31And I just found myself kind of shying away from it. And now I feel very passionately about being vocal in the way that this is such a kind of inappropriate and disproportionate way to talk about one another. and that's not that we can't disagree disagreeing is very important but ultimately have to disagree in what is a respectful and non-vitriolic personal manner and I think what's so interesting in the way that we often criticize and to be honest it's so often women obviously in that case it was both genders but I've definitely seen it for myself and I'm sure you've seen it for you it's a kind of universally acknowledged fact unfortunately that so much of this bizarrely personal totally irrespective of what you do in your career criticism is to women and it's it's so unnecessary and I find it very toxic and I think it's as a mum now I look at my I've got two little girls and I just think if I can't stand up for myself I don't know what example that sets to you too so I did feel that was very important and I think it comes back to as you said it's that purpose it's that mission I think what I realized was that was always going to be a part of the game was having people that don't like you and people who don't like what you do but if you're helping other people ultimately do those people matter and I think I came to realize they can't matter then you can't really dwell on them but equally it doesn't mean that you can't stand up for yourself and I think it's an interesting balance between the two because someone was saying but it sounds like you do care and I was like no I genuinely on a personal level I don't care I don't care that someone now calls me a bone stupid narcissist that's fine I respectfully disagree that I think are many things, but probably not that.

46:11But I do care that that's the way that we talk about women in the public eye. I do care that we think that that's appropriate to have in mainstream media as a way of disagreeing with each other. And those two can be separate. I care because I think it's an important topic for all of us as women, as opposed to caring because I'm upset that he called me that. At this point, I'm just like, good for you. I mean, I am upset that he called you that because it's not fucking true. um but also I I just I find it so problematic when we're looking at whether it is a plant-based diet which as you said is your personal choice it's also mine and I you've definitely helped me on my journey with that one I sometimes feel like ah about talking about food because people are just as we've talked about it's so emotive and it gets so so very personal but I feel like what your mission is, is about cooking whole food.

47:01I think the plant-based bit to me comes secondary almost because you can do this in a flexible way. So I think it got my back up because I was like, no, no, don't distract from what we're talking about here, which is just cooking in a really simple way. And they're recipes that anyone can emulate. They're ingredients that we can all find and it's going to make you feel better. It's not a diet. It's not a fad. And I think conflating the two is dangerous I mean it got my back up for loads of reasons but I think to distract from that pissed me off when that I think that's the point isn't it it's exactly that is that what happens is then people feel so confused as what what to do yeah um as opposed just like let's just make some more broccoli yeah um which is exactly the point um so it is interesting and it is interesting to learn to navigate but I feel very grateful to be what I think is the other side of it to the point that I genuinely on a personal level I'm like I know it will come it genuinely doesn't matter yeah and also I think when you're on a mission like for you I'm sure you kind of look ahead and think well it will never end I'll just stay on this mission for as long as I can and help as many people as humanly possible exactly and of course people will throw things at you along the way moments exactly it's just it's an inevitable part of it it's hard though isn't it I hate it some days I think I just want to hide I don't want to do this anymore I can't be asked yeah I do I went through a real phase of that I'm just thinking like I just I just don't want to be a part of this um but also do you know what I really love about you is that you um you don't play the game like you are now whether you like it or not in you know you're well known you you're in the celebrity world whether you like it or not people see you as someone that they look up to and etc but I don't see you going to all the parties and going to fashion week and all the bullshitty stuff that you can get dragged into it feels like you're just doing your thing and that's where your head's at yeah I've never don't think I've ever been to any event um I'm a complete homebody and that's it like I'm just exactly I think it's twofold isn't it I wonder if it's the same for you but it's taken me a long time to realize like that's what makes me really happy yes and it's interesting isn't it when you grow up because being cool and inverted commas has such clear parameters I think as a teenager in particular you know you're cool if you go out a lot and uni you're cool if you go out and you drink and you stay up late and all the rest of it it's quite a defined way of looking at essentially whether someone's like a great person or not and I think it's taken me a long time to accept that's just not who I am you know I'm not a sociable person I'm like I love my close girlfriends but I don't like being in busy rooms of people like I'm a complete introvert nothing makes me happier than going to a yoga class like ultimately that's my dream you know if I've got an hour to myself and my husband's got the kids or something that is where I'd like to be and I love my work I love going to work and ultimately like that's what I think is really fun and exciting and that's so kind of opposite of what you're you're brought up to feel like is cool and all the rest of it but i've i'm so much happier for accepting that's 100 who i am like getting into bed with a book after a bath don't it's my favorite feeling like the best thing in the world i literally look forward to it when i wake up i think oh i can't wait to get back in a later with a book oh my gosh totally it's like saturday night you can go out to a big party or you can stay cook some dinner watch a movie and read a book and be like yes the best exactly I think you've got to that point early because I'm quite a bit older than you and I pushed against that feeling feeling like there was something wrong with me and I needed to have traditional fun for years I'd go out to parties I'd go to events that I hated I very rarely do now unless I really feel like either I'm supporting someone or a cause that I need to then I'll go but other than that I'm at home but I've probably only really understood my own definition of fun probably in the last four or five years and fun to me is this this is so fun to me exactly reorganizing my bookshelves the most fun thing ever or like clearing out a cupboard or having a one-on-one coffee with someone or a small dinner going to a big thing or doing all I hate organized fun like organized fun to me is the least fun thing ever and I'm just getting to grips with that now and it's interesting isn't it like you said earlier when we say things out loud I wonder how many people are listening thinking oh my gosh that's me as well but I don't feel like you can say it because I think people will judge me and they'll think I'm a loser and it's such a bizarre word to use I don't mean to sound like I'm 13 still but I do think there's that way of looking at things that we have so deeply entrenched in us in school it stays with us a very long time so I think it's taken me a long time to realize like that's what I think's fun that's what brings me joy in my life that's what keeps me feeling energized and I I think as well you know I feel really strongly that life is a series of chapters and I think you can do everything in your life but you can't do everything in any one chapter and you do have to choose or at least I feel I have to choose what what matters right now and I've got two small children and I've got a very demanding job and there's just no space outside of that without burning yourself out you know on a monthly basis basically you know I feel like I just desperately need any pockets of time to tidy the house and breathe yeah and without that I just can't keep up I feel like I'm on this hamster wheel and I stop enjoying things I know I do enjoy and I look at it and I'm like I know even in 10 years time you know my children be 13 and 14 and they'll be sleeping in and they'll probably go to sleepovers and they'll do all of this and suddenly there will be more space in my life for other things to come in and probably work will be a little bit less 24 7 365 days a year and it is now and that's great and I'll really look forward to that but at the moment I'm trying to just be really grateful for what I have and where I am and I think it's very easy to look at other people all the time and think they're doing this they're doing that am I doing it wrong but ultimately like everyone's life is so different everyone's path is so different everyone's week and their day and it's so different and what we need is so different and I think it's just really accepting that sort of personal path has been a really big part of it I agree here's to books in bed books in bed even when your kids are at sleepovers you'll still just want to get in bed with a book it's the best feeling on the planet um Ella it's been so interesting talking to you today and I think I think a conversation like this leaves lots of interesting loose ends for us to go off and all, you know, you know more than anyone, but all go off and learn more about the food system and what we're eating and where it comes from and how it's made and all those things.

54:02I think it's real food for thought that we can go away and look into this more. And we all know it's still a problem. We can all do our tiny little bit without feeling like you said, that burdensome feeling of it's all down to the individual to correct this. there's huge systemic problems in place and hopefully down the line we'll see improvements but for the moment I think this is really good starting point for many of us to sort of dive into this subject deeper so thank you for providing such you know beautifully easy to read and digest information and as you know I love your books so much so thank you for making them and for being you thanks Ella thank you for having me oh thanks Ella and I'm already dreaming of just getting into bed with a book tonight.

54:44Nothing better. I'm already ready. Thank you so much for spending time with me, Ella. You're an absolute dream. Healthy Made Simple is out now and I might just cook myself some tea from it tonight. Are you following us on Instagram, by the way? I do hope so. We carry on chatting about podcast episodes and there are snippets from our YouTube series, What Is How To, as well. There's also some stuff on there about the Happy Place Festival and just loads of bits and bobs to make you smile and make you feel good and supported and seen and heard. We're at Happy Place Official. I'd love to see you there.

55:15All right. For now, it's a massive thank you again to Ella, to the producer, Anushka Tate at Happy Place Studios, and to you. I appreciate you so much.

55:40Thank you.

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