Even the Kardashians have insecurities! Reinvent your identity, with Chris Appleton

0:00Before we start, this episode contains some chat you might find difficult to hear, so do check the show notes for more details. Hello and welcome to Happy Place with me, Fern Cotton. This is the show that finds ways to reclaim your confidence. Today I'm chatting to Chris Appleton. We don't always look in the mirror and see ourselves and go, is this truly who I am or who I decided to be? Or was I kind of told to be this way? And then when you open up those doors of reinvention, whether it's Mrs. Jones that comes the salon, a cancer patient that lost the hair or a celebrity like Kim or JLo. When you truly see people and you help them see that they're not defined by their past and they can reinvent themselves at any age or any stage in their life, really powerful.

0:48Oh God, I am excited about this one. Okay, so I think we've all got pretty strong feelings about our hair. It's such a huge part of our identity. And I can look back over the years. I've got to laugh because when I look back at old pictures of myself, I've got some absolute stinkers in terms of haircuts and colours. I don't even know where to start. Let me just run through some of my highlights or lowlights. Once I tried to get a haircut that I thought would look like one of the John Frieda twins, and I ended up looking like Rod Stewart. No offense, Rod. But I was about 19. So that's not the look I was going for.

1:32One time I then copied this really cool DJ that I loved and I dyed my hair black at the back and white at the front. And I looked like a sort of terrified badger. Another time I dyed it bright red. Another time I cut it all off really, really short and I don't have the face for that. I've cut fringes on several occasions with deep regret seconds afterwards. I've had a perm I've had a perm with a straight fringe I think my natural inclination is to try and change my hair because I either feel bored of myself or bored of my life and I want to be a different person and although I think doing something drastic to your hair or just changing things up can be a great starting point for other change I've always done it in a really drastic extreme way, which I'm now slightly more cautious of.

2:21Saying that, I am thinking about dying my hair pink again. It might happen soon. But I think there's a lot of emotion tied into hair. And actually, sometimes when you lob off all your hair, it's exactly what you need. You just need to get that old stuff off and crack on with less to carry, less hair on your head. But I think it's something that we all feel is much more than just our image. You know, it's, it just feels deeper than that. At the moment, I'm sat here with, well, blonder hair than I've had in a long time. Do you know why? Because Chris told me to do it and I did it and I feel fucking fantastic.

3:02Chris is the celebrity hairdresser and creative mastermind behind iconic moments like Kim Kardashian's wet look, Ariana Grande's signature ponytail and JLo's dramatic bouncy Super Bowl curls. I mean, they are some of the most famous hair looks out there. He's now written a book called Your Roots Don't Define You. It's a brilliant book. Transform your look, transform your life, create your own comeback. Now we had this chat at the end of last year when Chris was in the UK for the fashion awards. He looked sensational. Did you see the pictures? He had like a tuxedo one with no shirt and my god he looked hot um it was just the most sensational look now this chat we go all over the shop and it gets deep and raw we talk about imposter syndrome because Chris grew up in Leicester and moved to Hollywood on a bit of a whim and sort of faked it until he made it um you know what I'm saying and I was deeply inspired by that part of the story we also talk about how you know when you go to the hairdresser you get into chats with the person doing your hair hairdressers are a little bit like a therapist untrained in that area of course but you do end up opening up to your hairdressers at times he also talks about working with cancer patients and how that has informed a lot of what he does today and chris's own backstory if you much about it, is incredible, full of huge change and moments of deep pain that he is very willing to talk about openly.

4:38All right, let's do it. Here's the show.

5:02Hello, Chris. Hello, babes. How are you? Back in London town. Well, we know because, my God, you looked sensational at the Fashion Awards the other night. Oh, thank you. Sorry, what the hell? Yeah, that's what I said. It was, yeah, it was fun. It's nice to be able to have fun with fashion. Yeah. It was so nice to be back in England, though. Did you feel powerful walking up those stairs in that tux without the shirt? I always get a little anxious before a red carpet just because the internet's a fun place to be you know and you know you never know what you're gonna get um I was just happy to be home actually I was happy to be here in England and it feels really uh special to be able to come back and do those kind of you know fun events like that and celebrate British fashion and you just have a good night it was great I love being back actually it's really nice because for a long time I couldn't come back which I guess we can talk about that later but for a long time I felt very um I would actually have a panic attack like when I when I'd come home so to come back and actually be very grounded and very happy and very peaceful and I actually just brought a house here which is really like complete my journey of uh healing I believe because if you'd have asked me 10 years ago I would say I would never come back so I'm fascinated by this I mean I've read your book so I I can see the gist of what you're suggesting here but you had this moment in life where you fled to the states it was Christmas Eve you didn't really have much of a plan you were doing it on a whim what catalyzed that what what was the feeling of like I've got to get the fuck out of here yeah if you'd asked me at the time I would say it was about further in my career um I'd had the opportunity to I mean I started doing hair when I was 13 I was young I did my mom's hair at nine.

6:44I was always mesmerized by like the power of transformation. So that was really something that I loved. And it was, I guess, a survival technique as well. Because at school, I was pretty bullied because I did hair. So that automatically then made me different because A, I had a job at 13, B, I did hair. And there wasn't really many hairstylists that were not women, or if it was a man, it was gay. So I was very quickly labeled as gay. So I, before I even and thought about sexuality particularly um I was labeled as something that I perceived as bad because it wasn't as though people were saying it friendly it was like you're gay you know it was like a bad thing yeah so I think I very quickly kind of thought you know I well I'm not that you know and I kind of blocked that out um and I really just went into survival mode and I was like I need to kind of show people that I'm you know not just this label so I think going through my career I was very eager to be good at it because I felt not very good at school I was dyslexic so I was always kind of labeled as the stupid one now there's so much more knowledge out there and we know that's not the case but at the time I felt like I had something to prove so I think for me going through hair was a way of I guess it was survival because I could feel power from it I could make people look and feel their best and that made me feel great that was like a superpower to me so then cut to working through the industry I started to work with celebrities and then I got an email one day from JLo's team it was really random I was just on a shoot and I I remember there was this email and I just ignored it.

8:10I just thought it was not real. I think it's complete scam. It's like, that's not going to happen. And then I got another email saying, you know, JLo would love for you to do a hair for this new Vegas show. And I remember thinking to myself, how does JLo know who I am? But I guess it was the beginning of social media and Instagram when I was posting my work. At the time I was working with Rita Ora and I was doing a lot of different looks on her hair. And I guess people notice. and I kind of thought to myself, well, maybe I could do more. Maybe I could go there and do this. Maybe I could go to America.

8:43And, you know, I was always inspired by these like Hollywood stars back in the day. And I was like, maybe I could have a go at doing it. So I moved to America and the big dream, I guess a lot of people go to Hollywood with a dream. And yeah, nothing really happened. I didn't work for like three or four months. And then eventually I got a call. I got a call from Christine Aguilera's team for The Voice, which I was so excited about. I was like, yes, you know, you get that excitement. And I was like, but then the fear crept in. And I was like, Christina Aguilera, she's amazing. You know, she's like an icon.

9:12So I remember I was on my way to The Voice. I was going to do a hair. And I just had this overwhelming like fear of, I guess, imposter syndrome. I felt like, how am I going to be able to do this? She's Christina Aguilera. I'm me from Leicester in England. Like she's going to see right through me. But I kind of put on a brave face. And I spoke to the mother of my kids, Kate, who we're still best friends now. We've had a great relationship. And she said to me, Chris, look, if you don't make this work, you're going to have to come home because I'm a dad, you know, finances. And it was a case of it was make it or break it and go home.

9:46So I turned up to The Voice and the three hours for Glam, which is a good amount of time. And I was like, great, I can do this. Had a few hairstyles in my head. And an hour went by and the makeup artist went in. So I sat outside the trailer, kind of just looking around, trying to not, you know, let the fear take over. Two hours went by and I'm thinking – Well, I was honestly just thinking like, maybe she's, maybe she's had her hair done and I'm just going to finish it off. You know, maybe it'll just be like, cause I didn't really know how it worked. So the last 20 minutes before the live show with The Voice, they were like, oh, you can go in the trailer now.

10:17You got 20 minutes? 20 minutes. And I'm like, well, she's probably got, hair's probably good, right? Cause what else can it be? At 20 minutes? I'm like, I don't know. It can't leave much. So I went in and, well, it wasn't ready. It was ready to be done. and she's like what do you want to do and I was like I don't want to do is that three hours of glam but I don't have it so uh I was like you know I had all these wigs prepped had all these hair pieces and I was like this would be good she had like bleached hair and I was like this could be cool like to do like a icier look and like a classic Hollywood style and she's like oh I don't like wigs and I was like oh yeah of course cool like why would you do why would you like anything I've got to do honestly like and I was like she can see me she can see little Chris she can see just this guy with a dream she can see that guy that was bullied at school and I felt this fear like come into my stomach and it just went through my body and it like spreads and it's kind of paralyzing and uh I just had this at this moment and it really was a defining point in my career and it was like I had this voice and I had Kate's voice in my head and I remember her saying if you don't make this work you're gonna have to go home and I kind of just snapped out of me and my insecurities and my fears and I kind of went into adult Chris and came back to myself and I was like look you know I didn't come this far to come this far like I'm going to do this for my kids I'm going to do this for the people that have supported me I'm going to do this for myself and I was like you know what you've never tried one of my wigs and I put it on and I and she was like oh so I like it and the stylist was like I think it's good so we had like 10 minutes and I put it on and off she went on to the live show and I remember thinking I was thinking like it looks good I I think that's good.

11:53I think that's good. And then she came off stage and she looked over at me and she was like, everyone likes your wig. And that was in that moment. I knew that I'd done it. You know, I was like, yes, I was going to be okay. And then I worked with her for a long time after that. And it kind of rolled on. But I will say, I think in that moment, if I had have given into that fear, that insecurity, the shame, I wouldn't be here now. I wouldn't have had my career in America. And I think my life would have been very different. And sometimes a defining moment like that can change your whole life. And it really did.

12:25It sounds kind of people might be listening, thinking, oh, whatever. But honestly, like the opportunities were slim. And I got this opportunity and I nearly let it slip because circumstance, because my own insecurities and fears. And, you know, I think that's why I've put together this book, Your Roots Don't Define You, because what people will find in there is it's basically a blueprint into reinvention, finding an identity, cutting away the roots that you were given as a child which is realistically how most of us got to where we are like we don't always look in the mirror and see ourselves like I think we look in the mirror about 10 times 15 times a day not many people actually stop and look you glance and you see that thing looking back at you you always see and you critique what you see totally with the negative voices yeah but a lot of people don't stop and go is this enough is this truly who I am or who I decided to be or was I kind of told to be this way you know like as a kid we have these things in the head like you know you have to have bangs because your forehead's big or you know you don't suit long hair or you don't suit blonde hair or you only suit blonde hair and you know interestingly like when you're in a chair as a stylist like the the stylist chair is kind of like this place where you kind of let go and a lot of like people talk about your hairstylist being a therapist yeah you have deep chats you do and you I think a lot of people are surprised about how much they open up yeah because i think it's the time where you look in them you stop and you're looking you are looking in the mirror and most of the time it's those negative like oh my god these bags got wrinkles oh my god i've got so many grays because you know normally we just glance but this is the time where you actually look and then i think if you have a good relationship with your stylist it's a time where you kind of open up to maybe something a little different and i'd say to people like you know well you know who's your who have you always inspired to look like and say well you know i've always wanted to be blonde but i know i can't do that and i'd always be fascinated by why people would say they can't do that and say well why is that and they're like well I was just told I couldn't and then when you open up those doors of reinvention and when you open up those doors of like new ways people it's kind of quite addictive and once you see it you can't not see it and I think that's the secret about my book and the people I've worked with whether it's Mrs Jones that comes in the salon a cancer patient that lost her hair or a celebrity like Kim or JLo, like when you truly see people and you help them, I guess, see that they're not defined by their past and they can reinvent themselves at any age or any stage in their life, it's really powerful.

14:50Yeah, and also you've done it. And I think that pivotal moment for you is so key, especially somewhere like Los Angeles where I worked there back in the day in my 20s and you can't lack in confidence. It's not a place where that's going to fly. Maybe in the UK you can be kind of quiet and shy and maybe people find that endearing. In LA, you have to sell yourself, put yourself out there. And that requires a level of self-belief. And I think even though you experienced imposter syndrome, which is probably the most normal reaction to an environment like that, you've got to have a little bit of self-belief underneath it to even suggest for Christina Aguilera to try a wig.

15:28When do you think that started to really kick in, this kind of feeling of, I reckon I can go to LA and I am going to stay there and I am going to make this work? I think for me, it wasn't like a conscious decision. I was doing it more through, I think, fear-based. I think now where I'm at in my life now, I'm the most grounded, settled, happiest I've ever been, truly authentically myself. I think for a long time, because of what I experienced as a kid being bullied and hiding, being gay, not knowing, but, you know, coming out as being gay and I really struggled with that and the shame I felt from that and and then running away from that and I think part of you know to answer your question earlier I think a lot of it I felt moving to America was for my career but I think a lot of it as I was running I was just running the fuck away from that person I did not want to be Chris who was gay I wanted to run I didn't want to be if I could have cut it out of me I would have and I couldn't so I ran and I think I was running for a long time and I think moving to America helped me redefine myself re-identify myself because I could look in the mirror without all of the baggage and the shame and I could start to see myself and I think when I started to do that and when I let go of all of these old kind of ideas of myself and the shame I will say I think my whole life changed my career changed my relationships changed finances changed and it sounds maybe a little cheesy but we all hold on to so much baggage that is dragging us down and we don't know and I think that's why I've been successful in my job because when people sit in my chair sometimes I help them see some of that and help them cut the roots and you know redefine themselves and like I said that's what people are going to find in this book ways and there's even tasks in there that people can go through to actually help identify you know where are the holes in the bucket what what's missing in their life and how to kind of fill it and not necessarily like uh run away from your roots but just uh retell them and yeah I think it's it's so interesting looking at that notion of I'm on the run because I've I think sometimes I still am yeah but I'm conscious of it I think I can look back at younger versions of myself on the telly back in the day and go oh my god too loud too enthusiastic or I'll think oh I was so stupid or foolish I can we can all be horrible to ourselves and we pick out we don't look at any of the positives yeah and I've at times thought right if I read more books if I didn't go to universities I've got this insecurity that I'm not smart enough if I keep reading keep reading keep learning interview people be better at interviewing people then maybe that version of me will just die like she'll just be gone and actually that you can never do that for a start that older version of you is always there and actually there's some amazing qualities in those younger versions of ourselves that we also wipe away and we forget about and I sometimes think oh I'd like to have some of her enthusiasm back or some of that optimism that I perhaps used to have and making friends with that old version of yourself is so important when you look back at young Chris now do you feel just compassion um I think in healing there was a lot of like going back to the younger version of myself because like I say I used to when I used to come home I remember being in the car coming back from Heathrow and I remember crying like and I had like a panic attack I felt so afraid I'd been like I just wanted to get back to America I was like I can't be here I can't go back to that like the shame and the and the weights I felt them like come back on me and I think a lot of what I had to do is go back to my younger self and be there for myself I mean if you if you think about the things you say to yourself like you were saying like oh I was stupid or I was loud or I was you wouldn't ever say that to like your child no no no you know because as a dad like I just want to support them I want to lift them up, I want to make them feel good and that's what they need as a parent and I think I had to learn to parent myself a little bit and go back to that little boy and I remember there's this, I remember it's so silly but I was at the window, I was like six years old and I was looking out and you know England it was a little grey and a little rainy and I remember feeling like there must be more and there must be more than this because I didn't really feel understood I felt different to my brothers, I felt different to my sisters I didn't really think my parents got me because of the dyslexia and like I was doing hair and they were supportive but it wasn't necessarily like their understanding of you know the way they were brought up and i think going back to that little boy and kind of just saying maybe what i needed to hear at the time which was like you're okay like you're enough you know and being kind to myself and once you see that little child in yourself it will change those voices because even if they do start you'll recognize you're doing that thing to yourself you're like that's not good like come on like be kind i'm actually okay and you can kind of self-soothe a little bit which sounds quite deep but it was it did make a big difference it's so important instead of running away from him i i brought him in and and actually gave him what he always needed yeah just a big hug i was actually abusing myself at that point you know and i think a lot of people are guilty of like abusing themselves and they don't know it no and like if you think about yourself as that little child inside like you just would never speak to a child no being mean to yourself is completely normal like we're like oh yeah we all talk shit about ourselves whereas being celebratory or pat yourself on the back you see and it's like oh get you who do you think you are it's like that is so fucked up that that's our just general psychology is that we're completely normalizing being an arsehole to ourselves i mean i found in the book your your childhood stories i i knew enough about you i mean i'm like the biggest kardashian fan so i've seen your face a lot but i did not know about your childhood i didn't know a lot of your story and it's fascinating i mean we can go right back to looking actually at your mum's story which your mum had a horrendous experience in childhood that i'm sure has informed who she is as a person how you were raised can you talk to us a bit about that yeah totally i mean um like when we all come from something my mum when she was 10 her mum and dad got murdered and she didn't have parents they didn't no one even told her the dead they read it on the front of a newspaper and they got put into some you know foster care home and then transferred to some horror I mean she had a horrible experience growing up it wasn't she didn't even know where parents were buried she still doesn't um and you know she was a result of that um she met my dad when my dad was a kid his mom put him in a home when he was like five and started a new family so they both had very traumatic upbringings they got together when they were 16 they've been together their whole lives um and you know they've done an amazing job but they carried like their traumas and you don't realize that you in you inherit them as well and you know part of growth and what people will find in this book is it gives you it gives you the techniques to be able to see them for what they are and how they're affecting your relationships why you choose the relationships you're in whilst maybe you always see the same results in the relationships whether it works or doesn't work and friendships um or even the job you do it affects so much of your life and I think it's just what was needed I mean maybe what people see from me as well is this kind of like social media like glamorous kind of lifestyle working with like you know famous people and we only post the best versions of ourselves I'll be really honest with you Fern I think the whole of my Instagram was a lie and that was just me putting out a facade of being the best version of myself it wasn't true and authentic and I think part of writing this book because it is really raw and gritty and it says a lot more about me because how can I expect other people to want to grow if I can't really show my shame and my guilt and my darkest side?

23:07I think that makes it much more relatable. And I think it's – so there's lots of stories, personal stories, about when I've been completely drowning in shame and in very dark places in my life and how I got out of that and the tools that helped me get out of that and how I found like reinvention as possible at any age. Yeah, of course. You know, and even going back to like Kris Jenner and the Kardashians, like that's why, you know, I love what she's doing because at no age should you ever just be defined and think, well, that's enough. You know, she's had this whole new, she had her face done and she's even...

23:40She looks fucking fabulous. It's so fun, right? I spent, I reckon I lost four hours last week looking at the pictures from her 70th birthday. Yeah. I couldn't get enough. So it's so great. I couldn't stop. I was like, there's got to be more that I haven't seen. That whole thing, I love. that she's just living her best life. Do you know what's so nice about it as well is she's just having fun doing it. She's not taking it too seriously. She's like, oh, this is great. And even like changing that short pixie haircut that she had for so long, which was kind of iconic. And we did this talk recently and she actually got a bit emotional and she's like, because we're in Paris, it was the robbery trial for Kim.

24:16And Kim was like, can you do my mom while you're done? I was like, yeah, I'd actually never done Chris's hair. I'd known her for years, but never done her hair. And I was like, yeah, sure, I'll do it. so she sat down in my chair at like I think it was like six in the morning because she went before Kim and um in fact she was already sitting in the chair Chris Jenner she's already sitting waiting she's like ah of course she is she's got shit to do I was like I'm five minutes early and she was fucking half an hour anyway um she sat down and she's like just blow it out and I was like oh no I was like babe come on we're gonna blow out blow out yeah come on like we're gonna talk about like what have you always wanted to try and you know something different and she was like well you know she was open to when again no one had probably people would just normally blow her hair out and we actually did like a longer look I think it was like a wet look bob or and or we pinned it up or something and did like an updo and seeing the chair you know she's like initially it was a little uncomfortable because she's quite generous she knows what she knows she sits down she you know and she's having this sort of new look and uncomfortableness is it's important to feel that way it's natural you know if i think usually with being uncomfortable there's change and change is great but by the end she was like you know she's looking in the mirror and she's like checking herself out and she felt good she felt good you know she felt cute and she you know and it kind of like she had her face done and then the hair just kind of finished it and completed it and it i mean now she's changing it all the time it's pinned up and she's got bangs and she's got no you know she's having so much fun with it and she got a bit emotional when we were talking at this event because she said you know you saw something different in me and you brought that out and she's like i'm so grateful that you did that and you know that's chris jenna i mean she's amazing like fabulous woman that is you know you think that would have been done anyway but i think a lot of people feel that way a lot of people sit in the chair and we all just go oh same as usual yeah you know and for someone to say don't we want to do the same as usual and if you do that's fine but But if you maybe have thought, well, is there a bit of a better version?

26:16Yeah. Maybe when I was 20, it was working, but maybe now I'm 30. Maybe now I've just gone through this breakup. Or maybe now I've just got this new job. I want to portray a slightly different image. And that's okay. And it's great. And I just don't think people necessarily realize the power of hair. And the book really isn't just about your appearance. It's really an internal thing. Hair is deeper than that. I'm sorry. We could all go, oh, it's just hair. It's not just hair. We've all had a shit haircut and felt terrible about ourselves. Oh, my God. How bad do you feel? I've had some absolute corkers.

26:51But equally, we have had haircuts when we walk out and we're like, I can take over the world. I am ready. You're like, I know everyone's looking at me, even though they're probably not. They're not. But you walk like you're in a film down the street afterwards. When someone comes to you, and I know we're jumping all over the gaff here, but I've just got a lot of things to say. Keep going. When someone comes to you and they say, like the opposite of Chris, they're like, do the thing. Do, like, let's just change shit up. I want to do, whether it's a fringe or I want to do a short bob from long hair or I want to dye it a different colour.

27:20What do you read into that? What are people saying to you with that move? Do you know what? Usually those times are like a breakup. Right. The breakup. Breakup hair. You got to be careful there because everyone's a little emotional. Yes. And we're running. Do you want to be fresh out of a bad relationship and have a shit fringe? Yeah, exactly. Double. Yeah. It's like, just cut my hair off. No, I mean, I think in those moments, like I always embrace it, but just steer it in the right direction and making sure that you're making change for good and not just change for change. Because hair is such a big part of, you know, identity and it can change completely the way you feel about your life.

27:59And when you look in the mirror and how you feel about yourself, I really realized that I felt like I always knew it. Like when I used to do my mom's hair when I was like nine, we were very poor and we didn't have a lot. and I wanted to somehow try and make my mom not look like a working mom of five, you know, and like she didn't have any glamour. So it was pretty rough. And I used to do hair and make her look like I wanted to look like a Hollywood star. So I'd say, mom, look in the mirror. And I remember like her shoulders would go back and she'd stand a little taller. And I remember like this, I was like, this is my superpower.

28:28But I think going through my career, when I started working in the salon, I started to work with cancer patients. And I saw these women come in and they were really strong, ballsy women. knew what they want but when they lost their hair they weren't like that they not only lost their hair they lost a part of themselves they lost their identity and they would look in the mirror and not recognize themselves and I had women say to me they would rather lose their breasts than their hair and that was like really powerful to me so that's when I started to work with wigs and I used to try and refine them because the wig thing back then was like the NHS they weren't like they weren't great it looked like a wig and people would rather not wear you uncomfortable comfortable yeah my nan was like that she's like nope I'm just gonna do a scarf on my head exactly yeah so I would like try and work on making them look more natural coloring the roof plucking them and when I did the wig and they would walk out I literally had women say like I feel like I can do this I feel like I can fight this because when they lost their hair they were like rabbits in headlights they literally were like the whole world knows I'm sick and I don't recognize myself when I look in the mirror because their identity was gone.

29:36So hair is just so powerful. And like I said, that's why there is something about sitting in the stylist chair. So I think in this book, people really will have that experience. And I guess it's like having the opportunity to sit in my chair, even though I'm not necessarily present. I wanted to put something into a book of everything I've learned that seems to work universally, that people can help, you know, redefine themselves and use reinvention as a blueprint and know that it is possible. You just need to know how. Yeah, exactly. And I mean, not only have you done that yourself, but you've got that experience of talking to all of these brilliant people that you now work with who have had incredible journeys themselves.

30:11And like you say, if you're working with a big celebrity, whether it's Kim Kardashian or Kris Jenner or J-Lo, it's so important for them to have on set people they feel so comfortable with because they might be getting up super early. They've got a long shoot ahead with lots of people asking them to do many, many things. that sort of scene you create for them it needs to be calm it needs to be malleable like whatever they want to talk about you're up for going there or maybe just quiet time so you do become so much more than someone who's just styling their hair you're there to to set a scene and i'm sure that's what you want to create for anyone who sits in your chair totally and and and i guess i want people to really see themselves and like just stop look in the mirror and ask yourself like is this enough is this truly who i want to be or did i get told this version of myself was how i should be you know and that is both whether you're in a relationship that you're not happy in or if you're in a job that you don't love or just you know you're unhappy with your hair in the book they're going to find ways to start to break that down from the beginning to the end um and change is a journey it doesn't just happen like that it takes time but the best place to start is to start you know just step one look in the mirror your own personal story which you touch on a lot in the book is really interesting you had kids very very young you were a teenager when you had your first child 19 19 how do you think fathering kids at that age impacted you how did that change your world at that point um i mean they're the greatest thing that ever happened to me when my kids it's it's wild I just think it was meant to be that way I don't I can't imagine my life without them I think they saved me in so many ways but again I did everything pretty young and it was through I think being bullied at school and so not wanting to be myself I so pushed away from it I did everything younger I got a job at 13 I was in the salon and qualified by 16 I was going out from 16 to 19 all the time.

32:15And I kind of was just trying to get through life and be enough. I was trying to just be enough. I think that was my goal. I just wanted to be enough. And then meeting Kate, she was 10 years older than me. And we had a great relationship for 10 years. And I think being a dad just for me was such a, and still is, it's my greatest achievement. And my biggest goal was to, I guess, protect them from some of the things that I went through. And that was why coming out at the age of 27, 26, 27 was so hard. Because it wasn't just my shame I was dealing with. I was dealing with theirs. And the biggest fear for me was ever bringing anything negative onto them.

33:01And I felt like I was bringing all of my past experience onto them, which was the darkest time in my life. But I think accepting yourself and I think once you've gone to your lowest breaking point, I remember a distinct moment where I was like, well, if I'm still going to be here, if I'm going to live and be here in this world, I couldn't hate myself anymore. I couldn't run away from myself anymore. So how about I just start from the beginning and I just kind of surrendered. And I was like, I don't quite know what I'm doing, but this is where I'm at now. And I'm going to start on page one. and I was like, okay, so I'm gay and I'm just going to work on just saying that.

33:40I couldn't even say it. I couldn't even say it. And it needed just to find myself. I needed to redefine who I was and cut away the old roots that weren't there anymore and redefine what that meant. And that was the journey. And it's long and it's hard. And doing the real work isn't easy, but it's the best thing you can ever do. Of course, of course. Because if I hadn't have done all that, I just I generally don't think I'd be here now. Well, I wouldn't. But you did try to take your life after you'd come out to Kate and your children. Yes. I mean, I think I did speak about that briefly. And honestly, I thought it was something I would never share.

34:17It was so much shame around it. But I could handle to an extent other people knowing I felt guilt and shame. But when I told the kids, I just something happened where I just closed down. I don't know. It was just the worst moment for me because I just never wanted to put any of the, I guess the trauma I went through as a child on them. And I felt like I'd passed on the baggage. And I just was like, it would be better for me not to be in their life than for them to have a dad that's gay. Like that's, people are not going to be okay with that. And they're going to get bullied. They're going to, I just felt like I'd passed on this.

34:55It felt like a disease. It felt because I wasn't accepting it. So it felt like it was just taking over me and I couldn't control it. And like I said, if I could have cut it out of me, I would have. So telling them was the hardest night of my life. And I remember just thinking it would be better if I wasn't here. And I drove for a long time, got in a car. It's amazing what your brain can do when you're, I guess, in a breaking point. And, yeah, I tried to end my life. And it didn't work. I woke up. And upon waking up, I remember just thinking, it couldn't get any worse than this. Like I couldn't hate myself anymore.

35:30um my name and belaine in the hospital bed and i was like you know what if i'm gonna be here i'm gonna have to just accept this and i'm gonna have to work my way through it and like i said i don't know where to start but i'm gonna start from the beginning because that has to be a better place than you can't keep running away from yourself you can't keep hating yourself because it it just eats you up um and that was day one and you know i think it was probably the first time if I'm really honest Fern that I stopped and looked at myself stop running I'd made a career out of making other people look at themselves and you know look in the mirror I but I never looked at myself because it was so much easier to make other people look and feel great and make them better than to actually face my demons and my my my you know shame but I think that was the first time I was like okay and I it was like looking in the mirror and seeing myself and I was like okay well we start from here you know and that was that was the start and and that's that's healing it's just starting you know yeah I think like you said a minute ago surrendering when there's you there's nothing else you can do in that moment than just go I'm starting from ground zero let's go and incredible to see what you've done in that time and your relationship with your children and how inspired they are by what you're doing and you've you've changed your mindset you've changed your whole life totally and it's not like I got it all together at all I'm still have all my insecurities and fears like I still don't feel enough a lot of the time um but the difference is now I have these tools which is what people will find in the book I know how to stop those voices quicker and I'm like I'm doing that thing and I can bring myself out of it you know I'm sure you still have those.

37:18Yeah, I've got, oh my God, riddled. But you know, you're kinder to yourself. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what? And it gets boring. Totally. You're like, oh my God, not this boring voice again telling me I'm an idiot. Like, that's boring. Delete. You kind of get to silence the haters. Yeah. And like I say, once you kind of realise you're abusing yourself, it's very powerful because you're like, you know, it's not helpful. And what you say in the book, which is super important as well, is all of these incredible women that we look up to and say they are shiny and perfect. I wish I was like them. they all feel the same totally when we're all human you know that's the the thing is we're all human and we all no one's really immune to feeling these things i just think there's not enough conversations about it and there's not enough conversations around sitting in someone's chair and letting go and and looking in the mirror and i think it's the one time that most people can properly relate to where they do stop and look in the mirror and even if you even if you relate to it by those negative voices in your head where you're like god i look old jesus christ it's lighting you know the it's always the same thing everyone says the same they're saying it verbally or inside their head and I think that's why I put the book together to be able to stop the journey for everyone what have you learned from these brilliant women that you work with regularly the ones that you are you know someone like Kim Kardashian you're with her in these moments where she's just got out of bed yeah and you've got to get her ready for a red carpet or you're with her and she's got family drama going on and you're about to send her off down like one of the most exposing red carpet okay what have you learned from these women in these deep chats that you're having you know or with chris wrote the foreword for your book you know you've obviously got a great relationship with her now where you can have these you know human to human discussions about life yeah i mean i i think just that it's interesting because i don't really see them as celebrities like i probably won't be able to do my job if i did you know yeah it'd be too weird yeah because when i used to think when i thought of christina aguilera as christina aguilera like I guess that was the child in me.

39:10Whereas I think now I'm just very professional and I kind of am adult Chris going into it. But I think maybe just realizing that we're all the same. We're all humans. We all have the insecurities and fears. We're all trying to be the better version of ourselves. And I think, you know, I mean, working with Kim has been such an amazing experience because she's such a multidimensional person. Not only is she, you know, a businesswoman and she's created Skims, which is this phenomenon. I'm wearing a bra now. Yeah, great stuff. I know it's been phenomenal to see her you know build that but then to evolve and you know she was obviously doing reality tv but now she's doing law and she's you know training to be a lawyer and how she is as a single parent and how much time and how amazing she is as a mom that she and the time that she gives to her kids you know and like I think I've always been very inspired by her work ethic and how hard she works it's always you know fascinating for me to see how someone can balance so much so yeah there's always so much you're learning from the people around you um which you know i feel very grateful to be able to experience and like i say that's why i kind of i want to put something together that people what that's why i wanted to put something together that people feel like they could be a part of and it's like okay well you don't look like j-lo but this is how this is this is the process you know like you start from start from the beginning let's start from the beginning let's look at you in the mirror and let's take you through some steps of how to get to a better place not just like feel your outside you know visual look but actually internally how we kind of bring you into a better place yeah and feeling that confidence because i think one thing americans are very good at yeah is confidence yeah we're not good at it like in the uk we're so self-deprecating oh god i'm sorry and oh pardon you know like everything's so apologetic and we often shrink ourselves down we don't want to be too seen or say too much because somebody might shoot us down and say you're a piece of shit so we kind of do it before they do and i think in america the culture is different and having you know i've been there a bunch but I worked there a bit in my 20s and I felt that there that sense of oh no people want you to do well here and actually everybody's very celebratory of success but equally I think confident going into things like yeah I'm gonna do my best I'm gonna succeed here and our culture is very different to that here 100 % and I think that was I mean I think that was the great thing about going to America and learning a different culture and and learning it's okay to change and to evolve and that's what it took for me to change and be able to come home now and really appreciate it um and appreciate that i i guess journey and i think that the best thing they say you can do as a child or for your child is for them to leave the town they were brought up in because um you quite quickly kind of absorb the way of life like oh you grow up you get married you have a child you work here nine to five i think there's a there's a real power and like i really encourage my kids to go out there and experience life you know and experience new cultures and new cities and new ways because it it gives you the freedom and it gives you the vision to know that you can live differently and it's like oh it's okay i don't have to do that thing that i saw my parents do and i've kind of inherited and that's with relationships like i for a long time i was trying to figure out like why do i keep ending up in the same relationship with the same result and it really took time for me to be like oh I think I saw this when I was a kid and I'm kind of like I thought that was normal but it's not and it's not that anyone did anything wrong because we all come from something it's just that like I kind of thought that was what was normal I'm sure maybe what you saw your parents do was normal and you'd see things in yourself of like oh I do that thing my mom does you know and then once you kind of relearn that you can retell the story and you You know, you're not defined by your past.

42:56It's really powerful. It changes everything. Because now I'm allergic to the things I was going for in the past. I might still be attracted to it. I don't want anyone to think I've got it together because I'm really not. I'm still figuring it out. We all are. It's bullshit. If anyone says they are, I'm like, oh, fuck off. No, you're not. We're all figuring it out. But what I do think I do know now is that if I do get those voices or if I do get attracted to the thing that I used to be attracted to, because that's still there i'm like i know that's not good for me i i know how that feels and how that's gonna end and i i just i like i said i feel like allergic to it because once you've healed and once you've done the work you can't you don't want to make the same mistakes it's like it's like being an alcoholic and and and becoming sober and you might still see a drink of it oh but you just know that you can't go that's not good for you it doesn't work you know and so you you learn to avoid it and you can do the same with relationships with you know friendships with jobs you can you can do that in all areas of your life yeah even if it's just the negative talk in your head you know but a lot of us just think oh no it's just who i am it's just the way i am and it's not you know i think a lot of it is built on self-respect isn't it because when you've got self-respect you want better for yourself you don't want to end up in the same shitty dead end that you did last year or 10 years ago and you think actually and it's a big deal when you get to a point I think I'm on the edge of it now where in my mid-40s I'm like I think I do deserve to feel good about myself and to feel happy or to feel like a sense of achievement or um to have people around me that make me feel good when you don't feel deserving and your self-esteem or self-respect is low there's quite it's kind of like borderless you know you just let anyone in or any abuse in because you don't think you deserve any better when do you think that's self-deserving thing kicked in for you like actually I deserve to be working with brilliant people to be succeeding to be in a healthy relationship to be authentically myself when did that start to come about um I think just in every relationship I've ever been in realizing that I was probably not protective of myself you know it was the one time I think at work I was always very you know I was having it together with my job but when it became to my personal relationships I just kind of let everything I was just open I I was just an open book and I I think you know you have to learn to let the right people in yeah because not everyone has the best intentions and you know you have to learn that that's just the way of life and you know you have to be a bit more protective of yourself like you'll be protective of your kids or like protective of your friends you know if you ever spoke to a friend you're like oh my god I can't believe you put up with that you what you let him talk to you like that of course but like I'm sure you've been spoken to like that you know you kind of well you know they were they were yeah exactly because yourself so I think for me I just just just like the point where I realized I was enough is when I was actually on my own and I really stopped and again looked and I was like why do I keep going into these same situations and getting the same result and I really wanted to change that so I really had to look at the dynamic yeah and I think for me as well like as a part of me that wanted to like fix people because I did that for my job for my job I was always like helping people see the best versions of themselves bring them bring that out in them and and you tend to do that then in your relationships and i'm like oh well if they just you know if we just do this or we just do that and you i realize it's not my job to fix people in a relationship people and also people change is really hard so anyone watching this that thinks change is easy it's really not it's fucking hard but it's like losing weight and going to the gym it's fucking hard you don't just go once and lose 10 pounds you have to go and you be consistent and then over time you see a result but once you've seen the result you tend to stick to it because you like the way it makes you feel that's the same with you know self-help and and inner work like you can't just expect to read a book and it change your life but it will give you the tools and if you follow them through to start at the beginning yeah and and but but once you've seen it trust me you won't be able to unsee it because it would just be there in your head and you you can't help but go towards change then yeah it's like once you've lost a few pounds and you're the gym and you like the way that makes you feel makes you feel a bit more confident and you fit in your jeans better and you kind of i like the way this feels i'm gonna stick with that this is this is my happy weight you know this is this is this is how i feel healthy yeah um and i think there's just so much to be done for that on your on your internal yeah without a doubt hey i'm gonna ask you such an annoying question yeah go for it remiss of me to not say okay if i sat in your chair right now yeah you got your scissors out or your dye what are you doing to mop this hair what are you doing how you've always been blonde yeah which i love i went red for one oh i do remember that yeah what did red do long time ago um it was not the right shade of red for me i went very red this was when i was about 22 i also had black hair for a bit who's your like hair inspo you ever had like a hair idol oh i don't know i chop and change my mind um Who's on your Pinterest?

48:05Who's on my Pinterest? I couldn't even tell you. I don't know. What kind of girl are you? Like more of a glamour girl or you're a cool, effortless girl? I wouldn't say I'm not glamorous at all. And I wouldn't even say I'm cool. I don't know. I don't know. Help. Really? That's so fascinating. I quite like, I go from long to bob all the time. Okay. And sometimes a bob makes me feel like, yeah, I'm back. I'm cool. I'm ready to go. And then I'm like, oh, I wish it was long again. and I spent ages growing it like I have now. Does it feel like a security blanket when it's long? Maybe. Maybe it is a bit of a security blanket.

48:37I think you're right. I mean, honestly, I think like, I mean, I feel blonde looks great on you because there's two ways of looking at it. I think blonde works for me. What works with your skin tone? Like, I think you look great blonde. Yeah. I think it could even be brighter blonde. Yeah, I like this. I feel like your personality is, I mean, if you're going with personality, I feel like you're bubbly and bright. And I actually feel like your hair at the minute is kind of quite dark. It is. I mean, my actual hair color is dark. I think I'm going to bleach the shit out of it I think you could be brighter and like you know make it pop a little bit more Yeah Because I think it'll bring out your eyes and your skin tone At the minute like you've got some nice bits around the front but the back is almost blending into It's dark Your skin tone and your eye colour So you could kind of go against that and make it pop Not that it looks bad It looks great You look beautiful No I don't care I want you to tell me the thing But I think it could definitely be brighter Okay and are we chopping a bit off or are we keeping it long?

49:21I think it could be a bit more like Kate Mossy fucked up like lived in sexy Yes and a bit blonde I don't think you need to go for the Bobby's great but sometimes I can be a bit mumsy as well that's why I've avoided it yeah it can get a bit like and then it's kind of just there yeah although I'm a mum I don't identify as one you don't always want to look like one do you know what I mean but I think maybe we bring sexy back guys I'm going to bleach the shit out of it next time when you see me when we've got more time no I should have come we should have just done it we should have sat in the chair who booked this for god's sake who booked me another podcast after this one for god's sake cancel Okay, well, I'm doing it.

49:58That's all I needed to hear. Look, I want to, for a second, you look beautiful. I think you have amazing hair and you have, you know, a beautiful face. But like, if you wanted to, you know, I feel like you're at a stage where you're like, I want a little something, you know, and like, you know, just like those pops of blonde and subtle change can make you just feel like, yeah, back. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it doesn't have to be a fucking bob or a shaved head or, you know, so many people think change has to be scary. It can just be really subtle. You know, I feel really good about myself. Just a bit more blonde, guys.

50:27Totally. And a little bit more. Oh my God, I'm excited. Before we wrap up, where is your happy place? My happy place is absolutely, I think always and forever will be just with my kids. You know, we just went away for the weekend. It was Thanksgiving in America. So it's kind of my tradition to go away with them. And they now have partners that have been in relationships for a long time. And I'm their single dad with them. But I'm just, I'm so proud of them. The decisions they've made. even the partners they've picked and you know we have such an open discussion like i was talking to kitty my daughter and like you know we were talking about my upbringing and then their upbringing and how you know trauma has passed and i was like there's things that you guys are gonna figure out from the way we brought you up me and your mom when we did our best everyone does their best but there's just things that you know you can read and they're both so healthy like they her and her partner do therapy and they like you know because they're very different like he's very sort of matter of fact and not emotional particularly at all and she is way more like me she's way more emotional way more in touch with her feelings so what they wanted to do is figure out how they can communicate and they both sensible oh my god so sensible and they take but you know he's become more understanding and understand you know more communicative which is really healthy and she's become less sort of anxious as a version of that because obviously there's always that anxious you know secure avoidant attachment yeah there's always this avoidant anxious dance and i think what's great is now there's so many tools that people are aware of that because you know because love or hate social media it's really helped people have a voice and see that and they're like oh i'm in an anxious relation i'm in a i'm in a you know i'm an avoidant or you know and understanding those things and if you do want to have a healthy relationship you've got to be able to look at yourself because no one's perfect and we all have inherited things like oh i didn't really realize i did that because to me it's just normal but to someone else on the receiving end it can feel like shit you know but when you love someone you're like oh I want to I want to be better for that I want to want to not do that to you I love you having those chats with your kids oh it's so good I love I love being the dad so much and I just I'm so proud of them I'm so proud of that they know who they've become and um I'd I my greatest goal in life was for them to you know be proud of me which um I had this but actually doing this book, they wrote these letters to me and them saying they were proud of me was my greatest achievement.

52:52I was like, I'm good. I'm done. Job done. I'm from my field. But yeah, they're my happy place. That's heaven. Well, look, Chris, I've loved talking to you. I wish we had longer. I love talking to you too. It's so nice. It's so great. And just good luck with everything you're doing. And next time I bring my scissors. Bring your whole kit. Okay, we're going in. And thank you for reading my book. I loved your book. I feel like you're ready for a change now. I'm ready. I'm getting the bleach out. I think hopefully everyone's going to have this. Everyone's going to be like, hey, can I ask you a quick question?

53:19Quick consultation. I had to do it. Chris, you're a legend. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me. I love that chat. Not only because I genuinely felt like I learned a hell of a lot about hair and what it represents, but also just hearing Chris's story I found so inspirational, so brave. Like the big changes that he's made in his life, coming out to his children, you know trying to take his own life and recovering from that and starting again it's a real story of someone that's turned their life around and I'm just so thrilled for him go on Chris what's your relationship with your style been like over the years let's have a little natter on Instagram we're over on at happy place official all right until next time huge thanks again to Chris to the producer Anushka Tate at Happy Play Studios and to you, you are bloody gorgeous.

54:35Thank you.