Fear can be wonderful or destructive! How to negotiate with doubt, with Joseph Fiennes

0:01Fearne Cotton: Hello and welcome to Happy Place. I'm Fern Cotton and this is the show that builds confidence through creativity. Today I'm chatting to Joseph Fiennes. It's a very human condition, doubt. It's a beautiful condition, doubt and fear too, but as long as it doesn't rule you. And I think that I certainly have it, but if I'm really connected and if I'm really joyous in what I'm connected to, it kind of evaporates. But if I'm not connected and I don't find a joy within the creativity, then it emerges. If I can't get to do that meditative, creative moment, I'm completely lost. I'm stressed. I'm gnarly.

0:40I kind of, you know, I'm prickly.

0:42Fearne Cotton: I mean, what a treat to chat to Joseph Fiennes. I am so buzzed about this conversation. Here's an actor that I've obviously grown up watching. I'm very much a Shakespeare in Love era person. I was a teenager when that film came out. But also I'm riveted by people like Joseph who have always remained firmly at the top of their game in the acting world, not only on the screen, but also in the theatre. I am fascinated by theatre actors. I love going to the theatre. I don't go that often, but I do love it. I haven't been probably for a couple of years now, but I'm weirdly going to the theatre tonight to watch Dangerous Liaisons.

1:21Fearne Cotton: Now I like going to the theatre because, for instance, like this evening, I know nothing about Dangerous Liaisons. I've not seen the film, the film adaptation that was out, maybe that was in the 90s as well. And I've not read much about it. So I'm sort of going in with fresh eyes and ears to this very well told story. And also I like anything that takes me out of my own head and life and off my phone. and the theatre seems like a real old school discipline where you have to sit, usually in quite an uncomfortable chair, and concentrate on something and you get to learn about life with storytelling, learn about yourself but I just like the fact that it's an old school discipline so I feel really excited that I'm going to the theatre tonight and of course Joseph has had an incredible theatre career and we get into that within this conversation.

2:13Fearne Cotton: You might too have first been introduced to Joseph in Shakespeare in Love back in the day or maybe in The Handmaid's Tale which I've only just started watching I'm very delayed on that one but my god it's good now he's playing so phenomenally I can't tell you Gareth Southgate in a new BBC show Dear England and in fact he played this role before on stage it started as a show at the National Theatre which which is where I'm going tonight, before being adapted for the TV. So we talk about what it is that he sees in Gareth, his demeanor, his compassion and vulnerability that he really relates to. And when I tell you that he transforms into Gareth Southgate in every conceivable way, I'm not exaggerating.

2:59Fearne Cotton: You have to watch this TV show. He is genius.

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3:51Fearne Cotton: Just no. I'm Chelsea Clinton, and That Can't Be True is back for season three. My guests and I cut through a lot of chaos to help all of us understand what is true, what is overblown, and what's false. Disordered eating messaging is all around us. You can hardly leave your house or check your phone without seeing something about dieting, weight loss, or exercise. With all that pressure, it can be hard to recognize habits have become harmful or even an eating disorder. If you're concerned you or a loved one might have an eating disorder, I want to introduce you to Equip. Equip is a fully virtual, evidence-based eating disorder treatment program that helps patients achieve lasting recovery at home.

4:35Fearne Cotton: Every Equip patient is matched with a multidisciplinary care team that includes a therapist, dietician, medical provider, and mentors. And you get a personalized treatment plan that's tailored to your unique goals and challenges. Equip treats patients of all ages and all eating disorder diagnoses. It's covered by insurance and there's no wait list. If you think that you or a loved one could be struggling with an eating disorder, don't wait to get help. Visit equip.health to learn more. That's equip.health.

5:09Fearne Cotton: Right, let's do it then. This is the show.

5:34Fearne Cotton: Joseph Fiennes, welcome to Happy Place. What a treat to have you on the podcast. How lovely to be with you here. Thank you for having me. It's a Monday morning. We are starting the week. I mean, I've already admitted to you that I'm slightly hungover and I'm not usually that person. It's very unprofessional of me. I think you're absolutely, you work so hard that if there's ever a day off, it's a Sunday and why not sip, you know, Bellinis and tequilas. It was a sunny day. It was a sunny day. But I'm on it and I'm ready for this podcast. And I need to start by saying how much joy I got from watching Dear England.

6:08Did you see it?

6:08Fearne Cotton: Oh my God. I've only seen episode one. I was allowed a sneaky peek. Oh, I thought the theatre. You saw the... I did not see the theatre show. Yeah, yeah. You saw the amazing... But the TV show, I... and I'm not somebody... I'm that kind of football fan that I'll watch the Big England matches and get involved in the excitement, but I don't know so much about football. But I was so invested in every bit of this story. It's just pure joy from start to finish. Yeah. I was like cheering watching it. Oh, that's great, because there was a worry when we did the, well, for me anyway, probably not for those involved, that that effect was very much part of the theatre production.

6:44And the audience came in and had the National, where we first started the Dear England experience, had a demographic that had never been to the theatre before. So you've got young kids with mums and dads and daughters. It was totally right across the board, and it was a demographic they hadn't seen. And it brought everyone, a community together. and I was just a little bit nervous at how can we do that. Well, they've done it because it's brilliant people that are much more talented than me, writers, directors, producers. So it's great that translates.

7:13Fearne Cotton: Oh, without a doubt. But I can imagine because obviously when you're on the stage, you've got that audience interaction. You can feel, oh, this is going down well. People are cheering at this point. There's that euphoria. Whereas the translation on screen, it's much harder to know how that's going to land with an audience. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's much more drama based. I mean, the theater was quite broad, at moments, very broad comedy. There's a sort of twinkle in the eye with the TV, but it's not quite so broad. I mean, there's the fun kind of thing of these characters that we know that are being portrayed, whether it's Gareth or Kane or Sterling.

7:47But once you get over that, you know, sense of who's who and how much they might or might not look like those people that we're so familiar with, you get into really interesting subjects beyond just football. So football is this lens in which we look at the kind of the psyche of the nation, the identity of the flag and what that might mean if you're playing. And if you're a second generation player in England, how does that translate to you with all the ghosts of what that flag might represent or racism or kind of toxic environments that young men have to kind of bite their lip and button down and endure?

8:21And so Gareth really brought this amazing, quiet revolution into the England squad, which was all about a kind of vulnerability, which is something you could never have in that place. It would be weak. So he went into a different place with the help of this amazing woman, Pippa Grange.

8:40Fearne Cotton: Well, I'm very, very lucky that I've not only had Gareth Southgate on the podcast, but I've had Dr. Pippa on the podcast too. No way. So watching it was so... It's all gone downhill. I'm sorry. Not at all. But I actually messaged, I DMed Pippa afterwards and said, oh, my God, this must just be so surreal for you. Not only having your story told on stage, but then to watch it on a TV show and to see the impact that she'd had. And at first, quite quietly, you know, when she came on the podcast, it was quite a few years ago now. She wasn't a known figure. You know, obviously, Gareth was so brilliant at bringing her into the fold and including her in rewriting the story of the England team and getting them to psychologically think differently.

9:20Fearne Cotton: But that wasn't public knowledge necessarily. That story came out later down the line. So I think for her, it must just be the most surreal but amazing stamp, like a seal of approval. Like, yeah, we did it. We created great change here. Yeah, she did. And she's, I mean, we had her in rehearsals, which was an amazing thing, a real gift to have her come in. and she's obviously so incredibly versed in what she's gifted at doing but doesn't necessarily want to take a front seat and so it must be very difficult because she was I think the success through penalties and the psychology of tackling penalties which is a big metaphor in itself for England she she got pulled out and identified by the press and suddenly she was in the forefront and very much a point of focus, which backroom staff don't really ordinarily want.

10:15So I think it was probably quite big for her to deal with that and then to have the play that looks at her relationship with Gareth and the players. So I wonder, did you speak to her after she had seen, after the play had been...

10:27Fearne Cotton: She hasn't seen the TV show yet, but obviously she's seen the play. Gareth hasn't seen the play, right? From what I understand, he hasn't. He worked with, well, he didn't work, but he met with our writer James Graham at the FA a number of times. So was incredibly kind and instructful, but wouldn't come to see the play. I did hear that maybe family members saw it and approved. And weirdly, about several months ago, I'm an ambassador for what was the Princess, now the King's Trust, and there was these awards for these young entrepreneurs. And it was at the South Bank, and I was just about to go on stage looking at the card, thinking, I hope I get these names right, who's won the award.

11:09And there was a tap on my shoulder. And I thought, bloody hell, I'm just about to go on. I turned around and it was the weirdest out of body experience where there was the face that was me, but not me, that I'd been inhabiting for two years, looking right close to me, no more than half a meter away. And he just went, hello. I thought he was going to say, what were you doing? How could you represent me like that? But he was the most kind, lovely gentleman. And it was lovely to meet him. He's so nice.

11:34Fearne Cotton: He's such a good egg. And your portrayal of him, at times I sort of forgot it was you. And the skill, obviously, in your incredible career that you've had that has enabled you to get to this place where you're by no means doing an impersonation. You just are Gareth Southgate. Like the tone of your voice, the mannerisms, it's so bizarre to watch. I mean, do you kind of, I don't know what your method is exactly, but do you feel like you are him when you're either on stage or on the screen playing him? Yeah, on stage it's easier to get away with it because there's no close-up and camera. And there's, you know, you can slightly fudge it if you squint and it's going, yeah, that's Gareth.

12:14But you can't escape on film. and so that was always a bit that was a an area of concern for me because you want to at least get the audience to get over that conceit so they're not hung up on no it doesn't work you want to get them through that um but gareth weirdly is the only character that's just come hurtling landed right there without having to dig for writing biographies or going through kind of various yeah methodologies to get to the character um i did watch a lot of sky sports just hours and hours of these interviews which actually give nothing away because they're told just to you know say it's a game of two halves and that's it you know so you don't really get there um and actually the best thing to do to get to characters talk to people who know them because they'll never tell you how they are but um so there's a bit of that but he just came naturally

13:10Fearne Cotton: I don't know why do you think that is like the part of your personality resonated with with his values or maybe I mean I've grown up with him you know uh being a player and a manager and with England so he's just sort of been on my radar and somehow has seeped into my psyche and it made it easier but it's good writing I have to say I think it's really good writing and the great thing is It's not about mimicry. It's not really about Gareth. Gareth and football is this vehicle to talk about other subjects. So I felt a little bit let off the hook to get it completely right. And what do you like about, I guess, what Gareth did with the England team, but his sense, his view of the world and his set of values and how he went in there very bravely to change something that had been sort of unsaid, but set in stone that this is how the England team work.

14:01Fearne Cotton: and this is how we do things. Even though it's not working, this is how we do it. And he went in there and sort of very calmly shook it all up hugely. What is it about Gareth as a person that you like? God, I mean, I don't know him personally, but from what I've learned and gleaned, I think what I really admire is that sense of challenging the expectations. And there's such expectations when it comes to World Cup, when it comes to putting on the England shirt. and there's so many ghosts with the failure of England not bringing it home since 66. And I just thought the psychology and approach to take away that expectation.

14:42And rather like for an actor, you want to find a certain freedom in your craft. And that's the same with football. You could see it in Russia when it all started to click. They played with such freedom and creativity. and I think that's taking away the expectations. And so I loved his game plan and he had come from the under 21 so he knew what it was to work with the youth. So I think he brought in the young players at the right time and he'd probably grown up in dressing rooms where a lot of shouting and kicking bottles didn't really work and he was the right person at the right time and had all the sensibilities of how to talk to players as individuals.

15:28and also letting players go is a big thing. And to personally phone them or to go and see them or to treat them with respect and understand that they're not just commodities like stocks and shares. And not that other managers did that, but certainly there was this approach which was very different and authentic. I just think he was clearly very engaged and knew that people needed to be authentically involved in a way that they hadn't been in the past.

15:56Fearne Cotton: Yeah, but I guess like bringing emotion into the picture, which, you know, wasn't necessarily part of the football landscape before. It was like, you're a skilled player, get out there, do your job. And it's maybe even quite a British slash English trait to be stoic and you just crack on with it. And there he is asking young men to journal and to sort of get in touch with that side of themselves, which seems incredibly courageous again. And also, like you were saying a moment ago, to lose the expectation means to be able to, and this is where Dr. Pippa comes into play, to face fear. And that, I think, in a sporting arena, when you've got the whole globe watching you, is very hard to mitigate the fear of failure, essentially.

16:38Fearne Cotton: what would you say your own relationship is with fear I mean I think it's certainly from someone that's not done it but to watch somebody on stage you can tell there's a vulnerability there like this could go wrong at any moment and you have to as an actor I'm imagining you know stare fear in the face every time you set foot on a stage every night in a theatre you've got a paying audience and you want to do it right do you do you feel the fear still yeah absolutely I mean and fear can can do wonderful things and then very destructive things i think the main thing is you've got to be completely rooted to your craft and your plan and it's a devil that you have to ask to step behind you um and it's always there it's always like it's a very human condition doubt it's a beautiful condition doubt and fear too but as long as it doesn't rule you and i think that i certainly a habit but if I'm really connected and if I'm really joyous in what I'm connected to it kind of evaporates but if I'm not connected and I don't find a joy within the creativity then it emerges and and there's a thing through you know I'm in mid-50s now and certainly starting out when I was 18 19 going on that journey and being lucky enough to go on that journey as an actor to be employed uh you get to learn these skills and you get to absorb and know how to negotiate fear and i think about those 18 year olds who are on this world stage as footballers taking penalties in front of millions and millions you know not only in the stadium but on a televised as well and how at 18 do you have the psychology to deal with that it's a huge thing and it's very easy for people to say yeah millionaires with you know porsches in houses and but still they're young boys that have to take on the massive ramifications of the psychological kind of fear and terror of um being you know taking a penalty in front of everyone for your country so to free them of that takes a very special kind of person and possibly a person that was there themselves that went through that so he's the sort of patron saint of penalties if you i mean he absolutely is he talked at length when he came on the podcast about that penalty and the pressure and how it could have taken him down really afterwards if he hadn't had the right people around him and other opportunities down the line come up.

19:03Fearne Cotton: But I think to pick yourself back up from that, it's really, really hard. How do you negotiate with fear? I like that term, but I wonder what that means because I've had an interesting relationship myself, I think, with fear where, I don't know, sometimes I can really use it to my best ability. Every time I sit and do this, There's always a small element of fear because you want to do a good job. You want to keep the podcast going and you want the opportunities to keep rolling in. But equally, I've had parts of my career where I've felt too scared and I've gone, I've got to step away from that now, actually.

19:36Fearne Cotton: I mean, live TV. I still haven't stepped back into doing that since maybe kind of my mid 30s. So 10 years ago, I was having lots of panic attacks and they seem to latch on to a couple of things. One was driving on the motorway and I've dealt with that one and I can do that again. The other one was live TV and I've not felt necessarily inclined to go and face that fear. But equally, there is a bit of me that's still like, it's not safe. You can't do it. It's deeply unnatural as well. Deeply unnatural. And also your body's being put through this. I mean, the chemicals that must be racing through the body to deal with it is like dealing with a car crash.

20:16I mean, it's really intense. I think they even said there was a study on actors and it'd be the same for presenters on TV that that live experience is the equivalent to a mild car crash. What your body and your brain has to go through.

20:30Fearne Cotton: Yeah, I certainly felt like that, which might sound overly dramatic or disproportionate. But I think with cancel culture, you know, lurking in the background the whole time, you think even if you say one thing and you say it clumsily or you react in a way that you slightly regret, like we all do in conversation with mates when we're having lunch with people or you're just having a gossip with your friends, you think, oh God, that came out a bit wrong. There is no margin for error in that environment when you're riffing, speaking, you know, hopefully fluently. So I think that to me feels like a no-go.

21:05Fearne Cotton: So I'm not even at the negotiation stage with that one yet. I'm just like, we'll park that for now. But what would that mean to you if you had, I don't know, a role come up that you thought, that scares the shit out of me, but I'm going to negotiate with this fear. How would you go about that? Roles themselves don't. I love a challenge and I've done theater most of my life. So I love what the challenges that theater offer and that I, I love and embrace. It's just the moment when it's press night and you're being judged by 40 journalists on one night and it all hangs on that one moment and invariably a play, unlike a film, but a play really about a month or two after the press night, then it's just rifting.

21:50It's just, it's beautiful. It's well-oiled and that's when they should come. But of course, then the show is over. So but but to be judged on that, that sense of being judged is is is the thing that can kind of jam up against the creative joy. So I don't I tend not to read reviews and I don't do any social media. I'm probably talked about in the worst way, but I wouldn't know. I'm blissfully ignorant so I can just remain engaged creatively. So, but in terms of taking on roles, I love biting off more than I can chew. But it's only when I'm getting judged that I think, why did I do that?

22:27Fearne Cotton: Yeah, it's a horrible feeling. Because I think that does then, that's the noise that you do need to negate to just do the thing that you actually know deep down you can do perfectly well. But it's the outside voices that can, if you're not careful, get in your head. So I think it's smart to have boundaries like I'm not going to read reviews. I mean, I'm the same if I write a book. I don't want to read anyone's opinion of it. I've written something that I believe in. That's enough for me now.

23:16Fearne Cotton: pie and their balsamic chicken salad. Available at the prepared foods counter. Get summer splash savings now at Whole Foods Market. Do you ever find yourself scrolling through headlines and thinking, possibly screaming, at least on the inside? That can't be true. There's rising rates of vaccine-preventable diseases and someone on the internet saying that watermelon juice is a natural alternative to sunscreen. Just no. I'm Chelsea Clinton, and That Can't Be True is back for season three. My guests and I cut through a lot of chaos to help all of us understand what is true, what is overblown, and what's false.

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24:37Fearne Cotton: Equip treats patients of all ages and all eating disorder diagnoses. It's covered by insurance, and there's no wait list. If you think that you or a loved one could be struggling with an eating disorder, don't wait to get help. Visit equip.health to learn more. That's equip.health. At Great Wolf Lodge, there's adventure for the whole family. You and your pack can splash away in the indoor water park where it's always 84 degrees. There's a massive wave pool, a lazy river, and tons of water slides for your pack to enjoy together. And the fun doesn't stop there. Get ready to explore and play at Adventure Packed Attractions from MagiQuest, a live-action game that takes place throughout the lodge to the Northern Lights Arcade.

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25:44Fearne Cotton: I read that your first stage experience was Women in Black, which I actually went to see. Did you? Probably, it could have even been you. It was in the 90s. Yeah, yeah. I went as a kid. No way. I went as a kid with my mum. Don't say a kid, you're making me really old. Well, I was a young teenager. No, no, no. But I remember being shit scared watching that play. It was terrifying to me as a young kid, but brilliant. Do you remember that experience of your first big play as a professional actor, a paying audience, what that felt like stepping out on stage? Yeah, 100%. It was a two-hander. It was with a lovely actor called Edward Petherbridge, a brilliant actor who tested me quite a few times.

26:24he would do these seemingly funny things like ad lib like i've left my umbrella at stage door and he would disappear and leave me on stage for like two minutes and i'd be like oh and then i found it and he would sort of have a twinkle in his eye and go see i'm testing you young man um but he was very very lovely and smart and um it was great to do it was six months long and it was fairly intense so i'd just come out of drama school i think i left drama school early because i got the gig and which is a bit of a no-no but I escaped and that was the biggest I think more than just being in front of an audience that thing of eight shows a week in the West End for six months you do feel like you're going mad and to get through that was it set me up I think in terms of understanding the work ethic and when people pay and you're doing hundreds of performances and it's you you want to deliver to those paying people what they deserve and keeping that energy up was a real that was the biggest wake-up call and and tough really really tough to the point where you thought it's not for me or no I just thought wow this is what it takes it's the olympics for the actor I think um you know I love film and television they have their own equally tough kind of demands but physically and mentally theater is like the athlete doing the olympics you're demanded at another level that you're you're stretched and demanded relentlessly so that was the biggest thing and of course the audience but i kind of i think if you're engaged and you're excited and you're communicating with your fellow actor i think the main thing is if if you stop listening that's when it all goes to pot so you have to stop yourself on stage thinking about god at the shopping list, Sainsbury's, did I do it?

28:13Because then you're off. And then you're, where am I? And that's, I tell you what, when you dry and because you're thinking about something, you're not listening. I can't think of anything worse. It is. Terrifying. It is terrifying. Absolutely. It's a horror I cannot describe.

28:26Fearne Cotton: Oh, I feel sick for you even thinking about a moment like that. Have you had that on stage where you've gone, oh, it's gone, it's gone? Plenty of times. And what do you do? You just wing it? You kind of, I remember at the Royal Shakespeare Company, there was this amazing actor. He was like the Brad Pitt of his day in black and white movies. called Griff Jones and he was about 90 years old and he would always play King Priam or something and he had this amazing like grey hair and he was like six foot four and he just had this presence but he did forget his lines occasionally and we and the Royal Shakespeare Company do like three or four plays in rep so you'd have to know I mean it was a time when I would ring up the box office not sure what play I was doing so I had to ring them up and go could you tell me what's in this one tonight at seven o 'clock and they were going well it's Troy Lison Crescent thank you very much and you had to go and go to Troy's and Grasso.

29:11Oh my God. But he did this thing with the classics is easier to fudge your way through it. Really? Yeah, well, because you could, he would always have this line, oh, to ride through Hyperion on a winged horse. It sounds right. Well, it sounds right. So if it's in Shakespeare, you just throw that in. Right. And you kind of dry and you go, oh, to ride through Hyperion on a winged horse. Everyone look at you. But no, they wouldn't know. And then you kind of get back on it. But I remember one night. That's so great. One night he came in and he went, he came in, it was Macbeth or something, and he burst through the doors and he went, three score and ten.

29:49And we're like, Griff, Griff, that's Trident's Cressida, we're doing Macbeth or something. And he would go, oh, oh, yes, and then he would go back into it. But the classics is easy to fudge it to a degree.

29:58Fearne Cotton: I would have thought the opposite because you can't ad lib and wing a line. It's got to be Shakespeare sounding at least. Yeah, you've got to have, if you get it with a bit of a meter, you get away with it. Because when we had David Tennant on, I was quizzing him about his Shakespeare play experiences. Again, he started the Royal Shakespeare Company. With me. With you. Yeah. Oh, I did not know that. Yeah, we did. He was brilliant. And as you like it, we did as you like it together. And then, in fact, the best experience I had at Royal Shakespeare Company was actually not doing Shakespeare. It's new modern plays.

30:28And we did one called The Herbal Bed with David. Yeah.

30:31Fearne Cotton: But he said he finds, because it's rhythmic, almost song-like, that he found it easier to memorise the script, which again I found so surprising. That the rhythm to it allowed the memory to kind of carry it. So true. He's bang on. Because we all speak in iambic, so I think there's a certain amount of beats to a line in English. If I asked you to do a sentence, I could probably work out you're speaking in iambic. It's the same with the French or Indian culture is 14 beats to a line. The French might be seven, we're five. And so we speak in iambic. It's a natural thing and it's a sort of heartbeat as well.

31:08And so with the classics, it's actually there are speeches that I'd learned at 16, 17 that I still know. They're still in there. Absolutely four minutes solid of a speech because it's with the iambic. It's that beat. It's that musicality that just locks in.

31:21Fearne Cotton: It's interesting because I think once you've done a Shakespeare play, maybe also in those formative years, You can't stay away from it. Seemingly, you just keep going back and back. I saw David in Macbeth not that long ago, maybe two years ago. And, you know, you can go away and do a film or a TV show, but then you've got to just touch base with Shakespeare here and there and have that little moment again. Yeah, you do, because, you know, the genius of him is that he reflects upon our time and age. And it's just always modern in that sense. And whatever you do, however you stage it, whatever mad costumes or set design you bring to it, what generally comes through is this morality tale, which is always fitting for any time and political landscape you're in.

32:06It will somehow give you pause for thought.

32:09Fearne Cotton: Yeah. I mean, they are. And most stories are kind of based on a Shakespeare play. Yeah, pretty much. There's only a few. There's only a few kind of several narratives in the world. There's not much like Pretty Woman is, you know, like Cinderella. Yeah. It's just a modernised version. So what about when you started to integrate into Hollywood? How did you find that? Because, again, as an outsider, as a film watcher and watching things like the Oscars or the BAFTAs, you can kind of see, oh, my gosh, of course, it looks glamorous and high octane. but there must be an underbelly to it that is cutthroat, that is very hard to get those big roles because so many people want them.

32:54Fearne Cotton: And doing a big film like Shakespeare in Love, you are front and centre of that whole ecosystem. How did you find that change at that point in your life? Well, people say it's a lot of luck and it is luck. I remember, again, I was at drama school and I sneaked out for an audition for Shakespeare in Love and it was for a bit part. And I met the director and Julie Roberts was playing the Gwyneth part and Daniel Day-Lewis was up for playing the other part. And then it all fell apart. And so I didn't get that tiny little bit part because the production packed in. And then a couple of years later, I went up for it again, but in a completely different role.

33:31But lucky. So it's kind of luck. It's where you kind of happen to be the right place at the right time. But, you know, 96 percent of all actors are out of work at any one time. So cutthroat, I don't know. But the competition is is massive. And just to kind of sustain any form of career is is is very hard. So I kind of say to people, if you want to do it, don't. If you have to do it, which is a big difference to wanting it, then then join the queue.

33:59Fearne Cotton: And what is that have? Is that because, you know, you're from an extremely creative family. You're one of seven siblings. Yeah. And you're all doing incredibly diverse but creative careers and very passionately. so is that what you mean by have like there's no other option you have to be creative yeah I mean I remember my mum used to say uh when we were you know you've got to get your guts into it and that's kind of been my mantra just to just pour everything into it um but if you're connected and joy is your guide and it's the thing you love and you have to do I think it'll it'll kind of reveal itself and I've always thought I've loved theater and film and television is a byproduct of my love of theatre and I just always thought whatever it is even if it means doing it in a subway station and doing kind of sonnet readings or something I'll do it um in fact now I'm working on a one person show and again it's that thing of fabricating the thing you want to do and not sort of hanging around waiting for the phone to ring yeah I mean that's not fun no no it can be a bit tiresome yeah but getting lucky it's all about luck can you imagine what your life would be without that creative outlet would you feel depressed low blue like what would be what would the feeling be yeah 100 % um I need I think in my life I need a kind of both physical pressure so I have to be lifting doing moving um and a mental one and if I didn't have that I think I would be absolutely mentally crippled I would kind of eat myself alive if I didn't have those things that could wear me out I need something to wear me out a challenge to wear me out both and and creatively I just um if I didn't have that god I uh I couldn't function yeah I feel the same yeah I definitely need I like having ideas and some of them are shit but I like that process yeah oh that where's that come from that's interesting what could we do with that and play around with it and evolve it and yeah so uh yeah I'm I'm the same I couldn't imagine a world without it it'd be deeply deeply depressing do you think that was that taught by or it's like the nature nurture conversation I guess but is that inherently like in your lineage there's got to be some element of like making doing creating or is that something like you say your mum's gone this is very important do put focus into it because at school often we're not taught that I mean I remember growing up I went to a state school in northwest London and it was like oh you like art okay good luck with that let's get you on with maths and science and and whatnot not and I'll be like I hate maths I've got no interest in it whatsoever you are quite heavily dissuaded from doing anything arty seriously and I know obviously like we've discussed the chances can be low getting a job being a painter or you know an actor whatever it might be a singer but should that deter you from following that path I'm not sure no I mean I take I think I was brought up to take art just as seriously as being a lawyer or a doctor.

37:19Luckily, I had the parents that were disciplined and had access to allowing me to follow through with understanding the discipline of a craft. So greatly stimulated in that regard. But I was at state school. I went to one school every year because we moved house. So my education was terrible. I failed everything. um i couldn't read couldn't write dyslexic but loved the outdoors i was a bit mad and maverick as a young boy but deeply creative and i always knew i'm just going to be in the arts so i didn't bother with anything else but luckily luckily i had the sort of home structure and parents that could offer me the right way forward in that love of what i wanted to do but certainly it's interesting isn't it how you know we're such as a country we've got such amazing talent creatively Yet you feel, or certainly I did growing up, but the arts was not taken seriously.

38:16I don't think it is still. Yeah, that's very sad.

38:19Fearne Cotton: It's financed less so in later education. It's kind of, I think that it is seen as like that would be a fun hobby, but it's probably, I mean, I was outright told by several teachers because I was so dead set. And, you know, I think the other part of this conversation is you've definitely got to have supportive parents. I was lucky and my parents were like, do what you want. If it makes you happy, give it a bash. They weren't saying, you need to stick to this. But equally, as a young person, and a lot of young people probably have this naturally, you need a bit of naivety, a big dose of hope. Because if you didn't believe you could do it, and not necessarily like make it, I'm going to be a star, but you had a chance of earning money from doing it, you wouldn't even bother.

39:03Fearne Cotton: You've got to have that kind of naivety. Do you think you had that kind of gung-ho like, yeah, I'm going to bloody well do this? I don't know if it was like, I'm going to do this, whatever. I just felt, I remember at age eight, I was a comprehensive in South London, Putney. I know exactly where I was. And the teacher said, we're going to do a play. And she cast me in the play. And at eight, and you, oh God, yeah, this is the department I need to be in. It just, I felt at home. And ever since that age, no matter what, I kind of secretly knew, I was terrible academically, but I secretly knew, well, I know the department I want to go into, and it's going to be there.

39:48And I'm just going to, I'm going to settle there. But I didn't think of the pressures of having to make money or make it successful. I just knew that's where I'm going to be happy. That's where I'm going to be fulfilled. And that's where I'm going to learn from. And, you know, many ways. And then if I did plays later on, it was, oh, this is great because I get to do lines written by people who are much more intelligent than me and I can hold hands with their intelligence and then I can look and feel pretty intelligent myself knowing that I'm not but uh getting that ticket to ride was fantastic it's really interesting hearing you talk about

40:20Fearne Cotton: you know that first experience of your eight years old and like this because you can't at that point in a sort of cerebral sense go yes this is for me like I understand this it's a feeling no it's a feeling it's totally instinctive gut i'm in the right department yeah that's it's not you're right it's not an intellectual thing it's not an ego thing it's just a dna thing yeah i mean i think i still feel that now i love painting i don't i can't make any money out of it at this point in my life maybe maybe one day but that's not the path that i'd sort of chosen obviously as a young person but when i'm painting i feel well yeah that's the best way and i've thought about it so much recently like why do I have these urges like I've got to paint this week it's because I feel really well while I'm doing it is that the feeling is it like I feel whole I feel complete this is me yeah I definitely I mean the the creative uh arts has that the meditation of just the coordination of eye to ink or paper and that sense of being lost where time and stress is not involved it's just your meditation your observance i think observing and listening and listening to your instincts is a really powerful place and uninhibited by others and opinions and if you can separate your ego from that observance and just be drawn by the way the material kind of leads you the water the ink it's the same in in music i imagine and um and in acting It's being led by the material and it's that combination, which is lovely.

41:59When you ride a part of your psyche rides with the material of others, it could be words for actors or paint for artists. It's a lovely meditation and it's a very, it's a happy place for me anyway. So what art would you do? How would you describe it?

42:14Fearne Cotton: I love portraiture. Really? I've been doing a little bit of landscape stuff recently, but portraiture is my, is my thing. And I, you're absolutely right. I'm in absolute meditation and I forget to drink water. I'm just like in it. I love it so much. And I think as I've got an older, I've realized I have to do that more because we're very good at denying ourselves the thing that makes us feel good. But like, no, I must clear out that cupboard and then I didn't do the shopping. And I've got, you know, you have this list of shit that you've got to get through as well as working and being parents or whatever.

42:50Fearne Cotton: But we deny ourselves that. Do you need something outside of, you know, you're lucky that you love your craft, you love your job, but you need something else that's just out of that? Well, I hear you on the nourishment side is deeply nourishing that process. I get to do it in my work. And that's why I don't actually it's not work in the thing I love doing. I get to play with other people. I come from a big family. So that sense of bashing ideas around with a group feels very familiar to me and a place I like. but I think I've been watching my daughter who's just taken her art GCSE and she was working on a big book and then going to her mark and then her final piece and I was itching as I looked over her shoulder to to do it myself I just had to hold myself back and silence myself because I just thought oh my god I want to do this and um so I think I'd love to paint I thought I was going to paint before I went to drama school um and I think I find great nourishment in that and if I can have an hour or two of that a day then I can do all the other jobs they're kind of easy I knock them knock them dead easily um whether it's tax or emails or I but if I can't get to do that meditative creative moment I'm completely lost I'm stressed I'm gnarly I kind of you know I'm prickly yeah Yeah, same.

44:12Fearne Cotton: I turn into a bit of a toddler. Yeah. Tantrums if I haven't just got a little minute. Do you ever find yourself scrolling through headlines and thinking, possibly screaming, at least on the inside, that can't be true. There's rising rates of vaccine-preventable diseases and someone on the internet saying that watermelon juice is a natural alternative to sunscreen. Just no. I'm Chelsea Clinton, and That Can't Be True is back for season three. My guests and I cut through a lot of chaos to help all of us understand what is true, what is overblown, and what's false. Save now at Whole Foods Market.

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46:15Fearne Cotton: Visit equip.health to learn more. That's equip.health. The interesting thing about, well, there's many interesting things about being an actor, but one is that you spend a large portion of your life being other people and getting into their psyche, like with Gareth Southgate, this character came easy, but you're trying to understand why he's made these decisions, what his set of values are, his lens of the world, what his upbringing is. Does that in any way ever help you work out who you are? Yeah, I mean, it's all connected. It can't not be. It's your point of view through your experience of life.

46:57And that's why every actor, whether they all play Hamlet or Juliet, they're going to give you their version of it because their version of life is completely different to anything else. And that's the joy of watching the same production again and again, because it's the way in which it's been interpreted by someone else. I was talking, I did an interview the other day and I spoke about going to a shrink as my character and I've done it three times.

47:23Fearne Cotton: Oh, really? Yeah. And it's a fascinating experience because you think it's about the character and you sit there and you go yeah well i had this terrible upbringing and i did this and did that and but then slowly as you answer and these very pertinent brilliant questions are being put to you by an astute brain you realize my god is that connected to me or the character and you start voicing deep feelings and thoughts on the character but they're slightly intertwined with your version of events as well so you end up learning a lot about yourself and the character but it's a tough thing if anyone goes to do it remember you have to fill out this form before you sit down and i was so stuck just at stage one of going god how old am i what's my date of birth what was my mom and dad's name and what's my middle name and so uh it took me a while of of getting that right but it's an interesting thing to do though it's a great way as your character yeah and you come away with a better sense of yeah i know of yourself of yourself weirdly that was a weird thing i thought it was going to only be about the character and then you start it starts locking into things that you haven't really addressed and they're slowly coming out and you have to really discern is this me or the character well and have you done therapy as you yeah i have yeah um lucanian therapy what's that well it's a kind of uh you got freud and jung and lucan yeah a french guy um from the 60s i think but it's a it's a session where it could be just 10 minutes 20 minutes half an hour it kind of um and so that was fascinating yeah wow and do you think Have you done it?

48:55I do it every Wednesday. Oh, do you? Brilliant.

48:57Fearne Cotton: Every Wednesday. It's expensive, isn't it? Oh, yeah. But it's a good expense. But it's the best. I'd rather do that than buy shoes. Yeah. I buy the cheapest shoes ever. And I wear the same trainers every damn day. But I'll spend my money going to therapy. Because it's changed my life in the best possible way. And I don't feel there's any sense of near completion with it. Like, it's just going to keep rolling. And I think, you know, I was having a chat with Ant and Dec when they came on the podcast. and Deck was saying, you know, he's someone that is so successful in his lane. You know, Ant and Deck cannot be any more successful in what they do.

49:32Fearne Cotton: But he said, I'm not saying anything that he didn't say to lots of people on this podcast, but that he doesn't feel he's made it. And at times he's unsure of who he is. And I think that's so fascinating to hear someone top of their game say that because we can all look around at our peers or people that we love on TV and think, they've nailed it. They've got it sorted. But actually, every one of us is bumbling along, trying our best, trying to figure out who the hell we are, which path to take next, which decisions to make. And we're just giving it a good shot. Yeah, I think so. It is interesting that those formative years, those childhood years, those really precious years, it's all there, isn't it?

50:13So if you haven't unraveled or found the full weight of the joy of that childhood, it's going to follow you into adulthood. So we're really just sort of adults in the playground still kind of trying to work it all out.

50:27Fearne Cotton: How do you think growing up in a big family with that many siblings and a twin brother has informed who you are as a person? Do you know what? It makes me eat really fast at the table. Like food's going to run out. Yeah, exactly. That's the only thing. And I actually went to see, he's a dear friend of mine, this guy that does NLP, this neuro-linguistic programming, when he was starting out as a hypnotist, I guess we'd call it. And I said, hey, I really want to support you in your new venture as a hypnotist. He said, well, Joe, what should we work on? And I was like, God, what is there? I feel quite good.

51:01I don't know what there is there. I said, I eat really fast because of being the youngest of seven. If you didn't get in there, it was gone.

51:08Fearne Cotton: It was gone. Yeah. So I'm still working on that. Wow. And do you think the twin relationship feels different to the relationship with your other siblings? Yeah, it does. I don't know if that's just sharing a womb, birthdays and bunk beds does that to you. But there's definitely a synergy there, unlike the others. But we're fraternal, so we're not identical. But I definitely have this very special relationship. although in adulthood it's you know with lives and what you do it's we we touch base less but I do feel that there's a connection quite unlike my other siblings he's a conservationist right he is yeah he works up in Norfolk in a place called Holcomb Hall where weirdly I filmed a bit of Shakespeare in Love it was very hard to be there but he's heads up the conservation and he's fascinating he's brilliant he'll take you in his little truck and he'll he'll go I remember he took me to this um to this field in norfolk and we sat there in his beat up land rover and he said what do you see and i said well i see like plowed field and some bushes and trees and that's about it because yeah there's not much is there i went well it looks kind of normal to me and he said we're going to go 20 minutes over here we're going to another field and it was full of bees and butterflies and foxes and birds.

52:33And it was just loud with nature. It was just crazy. It was like, you know, kind of anania or something. And I said, what the hell is this? He said, well, this is what conservation is about. You know, in the other place, they cut the hedges, they do this, the pesticides here, it's free. And you just saw the ecosystem was just banging. It was incredible. So I love going to see him. I love, he's brilliantly instructive. I'm a bit of a townie to him. and a bit of a lost case but it's it's lovely hanging out with him in norfolk oh that's so

53:05Fearne Cotton: nice just to get out the hustle and bustle and just be in nature is 100 absolute bliss before we wrap up there's a couple of important questions i ask everybody one of them i mean they're not important one of them's one of them is important one of them is for fun the first one is the fun one we're creating a happy place playlist with music that just makes you feel really good it can be any genre flavor what would your song be that you're putting on the playlist god i wish i thought about this i wasn't told no it's better it's better off the cuff because you're the answer will be different every day anyway my happy place in terms of a playlist is the white album by the beatles i mean there's so much in there that just sings to me in the best possible way and it's part of my growing up.

53:52And when I listen to that and various tracks, I am in such a happy place.

53:56Fearne Cotton: Is there one particular song that you think that gets me? Oh my God, there's bits of all different bits. The one that doesn't get me is a track called Number Nine. But I mean, it could be, oh my God, I can't think of the names, but... We can put all of them on there. We can put the whole album on there. Yeah, I'll put the whole album. Yeah, please. I mean, I can't draw one. I mean, also that some of them are very short. They're kind of almost experimental bits and suddenly it's like, you know, 40 seconds and then they're into something else. God, I mean, all of it. Yeah, I'm a massive Beatles fan.

54:26Fearne Cotton: I absolutely love them. And then where would you say your happy place is? Well, talking about nature and conservation, it is, you know, I was brought up in the south of Ireland, in Wiltshire. My childhood is very much connected to nature. So my happy place would be a combination of my wife and my daughters on a very long walk. It doesn't matter if it's, I love the heat. It doesn't matter if it's cold as long as we built up a good steam walking. But it's nature. There's nothing more beautiful. And being family and nature, that combination, super happy. Love that. Are your daughters of an age where they'll happily go on a walk?

55:09Fearne Cotton: Because mine don't love walking. Yeah. Yeah. it depends it's a hit and miss some days even it could be we'll all go for a walk and you go yeah I can't wait and then 10 minutes before you go you go we're all ready no I'm not coming you're like what you just said you were so it's really difficult but if I can get some other of their friends along then they'll all jump in but that's not so happy for me because I just want to be with them yeah that's so nice well look thank you so much for being on the podcast and just wait for the reception of Dear England honestly I really fingers crossed I can't wait to watch episode.

55:45Fearne Cotton: How many is it? Four episodes? Yeah, end of May, I think. I literally can't wait. I was goosebumped at the end, buzzing. It's just brilliant. So congratulations. Thanks so much. Thank you, Joseph. Bless you. Oh, my God. How much do we now all absolutely adore Joseph Fiennes? As if we didn't already. We already loved him. But what a down-to-earth, grounded, articulate and just lovely man just like a good egg all around and honestly I cannot urge you enough to watch Dear England I could give a fuck about football and I know people give me shit for that I really I'm not into it at all I don't I don't get it but I was absolutely hanging off every word of this tv show football's almost like a secondary thing it's more about combating fear and culture and men's vulnerability and toxic masculinity.

56:40Fearne Cotton: It's honestly just brilliant and the cast are amazing. All right, until next time, you gorgeous lot, a massive thanks to Joseph and to you. You are lovely.

57:11Fearne Cotton: Happy Place is researched by me, Fern Cotton. The producer is Anushka Tate at Happy Place Studios with studio engineering by Basil Oxtoby. Quick question. When was the last time a display ad changed your mind? Now think about the last time a friend told you about something they loved. Different feeling, right? That's how podcast advertising works. A host who's built real trust with their audience talks about your brand in their own words, in their own voice. It doesn't interrupt the experience. It's part of it. With Acast, you can access the world's largest podcast marketplace. Choose the right shows, the right audiences, the right format.

57:50Fearne Cotton: Then watch the data tell you it worked. You're not buying impressions. You're buying influence. Learn more by visiting acast.com slash advertise.