“Feel it, process it, move on!” Mary Earps: How to find gratitude after hardship

0:00Hello and a massive welcome to Happy Place with me Fern Cotton. This is the show that knows hardship often leads to growth. Today, I'm chatting to Mary Earps. People will sometimes say, like, if it feels dark, put a light on. It's not as simple as that. Sometimes I need to sit in the darkness. I need to allow myself to feel. Don't tell me that I don't feel that way. Don't tell yourself, oh, you're not sad. Get on with it. There's other people out there who have a worse life than you, Mary. Your life isn't that hard. Look at all the amazing things. It's just, OK, I feel this way. That is valid.

0:31Why do I feel that way? Process it. Feel it. and then I can move on from it. Anyone else overwhelmed? Put your hand up. I'm putting two up. Oh, my goodness. What is going on? Especially, I don't know, if you've got kids, I'm finding this last term of school before the summer holidays insane. How many sports days and swimming galas and assemblies and summer fairs and all that jazz are we attending? I mean, I might as well literally go to school every day with my kids and just stay there. And also, I'm just having, you know, when everything in your house home breaks at the same time so my dishwasher's not working my car wouldn't charge all weekend and also oh this isn't like something breaking but um my kids are fostering a a poor baby bird that my cat's attacked and we are trying to keep it alive and we're going to call the is it rs rsp pb is that the one i'm thinking of to give us some tips because we've done pretty well with it so far.

1:32But that is just, it's another responsibility that I'm obviously taking extremely seriously because I love wildlife, but just overwhelmed, just like a lot of people to feed and animals and things to keep alive. And oh my goodness, it's full on. So whenever I do these podcasts, it is pure escapism for me. I feel very lucky that I get to do this. And not only is it escapism, But also I get to draw out great wisdom from people that have lived a life. And today is absolutely that. So let's talk about wonderful Mary. So the UEFA Women's Euros are starting on the 2nd of July, with matches being played in Switzerland throughout the month.

2:14So I had to get one of England's most legendary players on the show to reflect on what a phenomenal few years of women's sport we have had. Mary is, of course, the iconic England goalkeeper who saved a penalty against Spain in the 2023 World Cup final. If you haven't seen it, watch it back. I sort of felt I felt as euphoric as I imagined Mary did. Like I sort of jumped off my chair, goosebumps. It's just the most gorgeous bit of footage. And although the Lionesses didn't win that final, Mary's performance earned her the golden glove for best keeper in the tournament. She was also a part of that utterly brilliant England team that won the 2022 Euros, which again, whenever I watch that last game against Germany, I cry.

2:58Just a couple of months ago, she announced her international retirement. So obviously we talked about that decision, as well as the one to move from Manchester United to Paris Saint-Germain, which all sparked some really interesting chat about the importance of having different chapters in your life and being bold and brave enough to make scary decisions for yourself. The market's uncertain. Revenue's tied and hiring on hold. That's why results-driven companies are using Upwork to keep work moving. Go to Upwork.com today and start hiring proven freelance talent fast. No bulky overhead. No rigid long-term contracts.

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5:22So Mary, in just a moment, I promise. But first, a quick reminder, partly for me, to be honest, because the Happy Place Festival in London's Gunnersbury Park is less than two weeks away. Ah! And then we're going to be at Tatton Park in Cheshire on the 30th and 31st of August. Oh, my God, it's going to be so good. Do you know who's coming with us to join in the fun and to do talks? Davina McCool Jordan Stevens Liz Earle Millie McIntosh sorry this isn't a bloody good line up it's an amazing line up oh also the amazing guys from All on the Board and loads more just go and have a look on the website and of course there's all the meditation classes and yoga and breath work and sound baths and shopping and food and all that you can get involved with whatever you like I would so so so love to see you there go and get your tickets at happyplacefestival.com right let's do it Here's the show.

6:37Well, look, we've already been discussing sort of on mic, off mic, summer attire. Like we love wearing a dress in the summer. But so impractical. So impractical. Flowy. Yeah. Airy. Yeah. Enjoyable. Not practical. We should, for context's sake, it's about 8 million degrees outside. 9 million, I would say. It's insane. Insane. And there was a lot of stairs. Yeah. This is quite short. I should have gone at the end, but I was first leading up the stairs. So the people behind got a hell of a view for free. You didn't have to pay for it. But we've got air con in here, which is delightful. Like Mary's come for the air con, but it's hopefully staying for the chat.

7:13Severe lack of AC. In this country. We don't have it. Well, no, because we're not used to the weather being like this. What's AC like in Paris? Have they got it there? No. No. No. No. Just doesn't really exist. It's just very sweaty. We just don't do it in Europe. What's wrong with us? Because it used to be just like a calm 20 degrees tops, 25 maybe. I had the fan on last night in the bedroom, just sort of blowing an inch from my face. It's still too hot. I've heard that's really bad for you. Probably awful. But it feels great. It feels great, especially when you talk for a living. It's not good for a throat.

7:46But it's too fucking hot. It is way hot. And I've had to sleep with the AC in the hotel, which I never do because I wake up with a croak. Yeah, not good. Never. Is it nice being back in England? Yeah, it's nice to be back. Nice to speak your own language. Yeah. Your French is on point, right? I don't know about on point. Generous, that is. I watched the BBC doc and I was like, you're just chatting in French. I feel I'm receiving in French. Okay. But sending is different. Yeah. It's like three to five working days to... I think I've got a good understanding, I think. I would like to think. It's such a fit language as well.

8:22Like, it's such a good one. Like, it's just hot. It's just a hot language. I'm really happy if people think I'm hot because I speak French. Speaking French is the best. Like, if you're going to learn a language... I don't think I've ever been called hot in my whole life, so that would be phenomenal. It's so hot. Like, keep it going, I would say. No, definitely. I think also English is not as widely spoken in France as maybe what I anticipated. Right. So really had not a lot of choice. And also anyone who does speak English, they're like, oh, I'll speak English with you. And I'm like, no, please speak French with me because I want to learn.

8:53And they're like, yeah, but I want to learn English. I'm like, see, this isn't as mutually beneficial as one might. No, exactly. But I think you do have to live somewhere to properly integrate language. Certainly if you're not a kid. When you're a kid, I think our brains are so malleable. But now you've got to be there. Like every year when I go to Spain or Ibiza, I'm like, this is the year where I'm going to learn Spanish. I've been saying it for 20 years. And while I'm there, I'm so enthusiastic and I'm going into the shops and I'm using GCSE Spanish. And then when I get home, I do nothing for 11 months.

9:21And then I go back and I try again. You've got to live there. You're doing the right thing. Immersion is key. Are you a proper Ibiza girly? I love it. I just went last weekend. You did? Yeah, I love it. I've been once. The girls love Ibiza. Love it. Like off season, all I hear is, I'm going Ibiza. Well, I guess because your schedule is so intense when you're in the season. And you have to be incredibly disciplined. But you do need to counter that, I'm imagining. Yeah, I think it's healthy. Healthy to have a balance. I don't think there's much work-life balance in football, to be honest, as in many industries.

9:54But I think it's just nice to go somewhere where it's hot. And I'm not really a massive party girl, but I do love music. So when I was there last year, there was a lot of saxophone playing. and I really enjoyed that. Live sax? Live sax. With a DJ? Or just like live sax? Yeah, just live sax by the pool. And I was like, this is pretty good actually. I love that. I felt a bit low and then the sax came out and I thought, I can dance. Yeah. I can get a boogie onto this, yeah. And will you really let yourself relax when you're not in season? Will you eat what you want, drink what you want or are you still kind of, you have that mindset of, you know, you're an international athlete?

10:34Yeah, it's definitely different. like so I think obviously I've internationally retired a few weeks ago so now I've got a little bit more time on my hands where I can hopefully be physically and mentally rested in a really nice way see family and friends more um so I've been able to go on holiday for yeah a little bit of time kind of escape it all but I think I get like kind of fed up of that if you know I mean because I'm so used to that routine I like miss structure so for a few weeks it's fine or I've never had more than 12 days off I think consecutively really so yeah so this was like the first time I went away for two weeks and also had a travel day each side which was just it was a luxury but could you actually mentally relax because I think when you're used to being on the go it's very hard I think one of my worst traits as a person is that I can't switch off I try but then and I'm like put right I'm gonna put my phone to the side I'm off socials I'm just gonna put it there and then And I end up giving a little, I'm thinking of something and then I'll text someone about something and I'll try and arrange it.

11:37But it's hard to do. And do you work out when you're on holiday still? Keep fitness up? I try and listen to my body, I think, a little bit more now, especially as I'm a little bit more experienced, let's say. Yeah, I try and just, OK, my body is wanting a little bit more. My body's really enjoying it. And then, yeah, get back on the horse kind of gradually. Because, again, as you're a bit more experienced, I find that preseason becomes a little bit harder to start. Right. So like if you give your body too much time to chill, you really suffer with the doms. Yeah. So, yeah. I even find that like I'm in my 40s and if I haven't been running for a week and then I go on a run, I'm like, oh, I'm like the tin man.

12:14Like everything's like clunky and hurts. It's just like, what is going on? Yeah. It's an everyday occurrence as a footballer, I feel. Things click and you're like, oh, I didn't know that could click. And you're like, right, on to the next dive, on to the next exercise. Oh, my God. It's so intense. I mean, you just said that you very recently announced your international retirement. How are you feeling about everything? I feel good. I think obviously in total transparency, you know, at the time, it's a very hard decision to make. And I think to announce it was, you know, it had been in the works for a while, but obviously maybe other people weren't experiencing it the way I was experiencing it.

12:50And I think that as well, like I'm quite private, like I keep everything in and I try and like internalize it and rationalize it and then yeah I felt like it was the right decision and I I mean I still think that now I think maybe you know it was it was shocking to to some people but I think when you've been having those conversations behind closed doors and yeah I was obviously able to tell the girls in person they were so supportive and you know say goodbye and like these are girls that I like grew up with and have spent so much time with so many amazing memories with so yeah it was it was sad but I think it's it's the right thing and I'm really looking forward to supporting them this summer yeah I mean will it be slightly painful watching the Euros I mean it's it's a hard thing even though you've got that autonomy you've made that decision right it's bittersweet to then sit at home and watch it I don't know I don't know how I'm gonna feel because I'm hoping to get out there okay I'm hoping to get out there and watch a few games kind of depending on pre-season and kind of where I'm gonna be but I think like like I think the girls are first of all phenomenal team I think they're gonna do really really well so I'm really looking forward to seeing that I don't know like I feel really okay now but I think it depends because the time of the announcement I think there was like it was difficult and it was painful but mainly because of part of the reaction and sort of some people were amazingly spot on the girls like the way that they hadn't had my back and that meant the absolute world to me like they really didn't need to do that but I'm like just meant the world and I think that the way yeah I was villainized in a way like that probably was was a bit bit hard to read like to see things and read things but it's more hard like you know you'll get it like it's more like what my friends and family see yeah and then the way they interact with me and I'm like oh I know you've seen something and then I'm like upset for them because I'm like you didn't choose this you've got to now deal with this and I'm then gutted for them and then I'm like not really wanting to know what's being said but then it's kind of coming out and coming so I feel like that's hard but in in the end I feel like it was the right decision so I don't want it to be painful watching them but I won't know until it's there because I think I thought that I think I felt almost a bit of relief when the because it had been so long coming of course and it got to put it like mentally physically I was just like right I've given everything here I think watching them hopefully I'm gonna feel like at peace super proud yeah patriotic I can watch it from a different angle And yeah, I'm looking forward to it.

15:17Yeah, good. Like you say, it's all that exterior noise, which is, you know, at the end of the day, what other people think of us is nothing to do with us. But it's so hard not to take this stuff personally, especially when you've got a public facing job role. And everyone's got an opinion. Everyone thinks they know, you know, what's going on in your mind. And it's just a load of old bollocks. It is just noise. but it's very hard in the moment to differentiate that and to still keep peace with your decision. But I think when you've made a decision in your head, or even if you've got like a whisper of it in your head, the longer you leave it, that voice gets louder and louder and louder.

15:56And you've got to go on that instinct of what you know is right for you. Have you always been quite sort of gut led with your decision making, would you say? I think, I think like my whole thing is about being unapologetically yourself. And I think that you sometimes have to make decisions that maybe people don't understand. And there's always going to be people that disagree with you. And I'm okay with that. I'm okay with not being everybody's cup of tea. I think the hardest thing about, as you say, being public facing is when you see stuff that you're like, I just know that isn't true. And then I'm like, what I really struggle with.

16:27Makes me really fucking angry. Yeah. I'm like, right, well, do I need to correct that? And like go out and say the actual truth. But then the other part of me is like, I know that like for this situation, I've behaved with professionalism and integrity throughout. So the last thing I want to do is then create an even worse situation for the girls that they've already had to deal with. You know what I mean? Like it was always going to be noisy at the start. Like, let's not continue it. Let's leave it. The time to talk will come. Now is not it. The girls are heading into a major tournament. But I think on a personal note, when your whole thing is about being honest and truthful and like, you know, unapologetically who I am, then I start questioning again another internal struggle there's a theme here of like well am I being unapologetically myself like am I actually going against who my who I am by not saying it and then it's like yeah but sometimes you're being like baited to say stuff and then you know your agent gets calls from people oh you know you know the drill the agent I won't I won't I hate that phone call I look at my phone I think I'm not fucking picking that up no way you give me an exclusive I won't post this and you're like no so yeah stressful it yeah it's not easy it's it's I like to see it as it's a hazard of the job it's sometimes the price of success yeah and I'm so grateful for everything we've achieved as a team all the opportunities I've had and yeah now stepping away from that and allowing them to it I felt it was my responsibility to to make that that call and um yeah I'm looking forward to to what the future holds.

18:01Yeah, it's exciting. I mean, you said on Instagram, not having international football in your life is scary, but it is exciting. It's both things at the same time. Two things can be true, for sure. I think it's the unknown. It's stepping into something that's new and different, but I think it will be, football's hard, like mentally, physically, it's a lot as you get older, you're trying to manage your body more and more. And I feel in a really good spot, like physically, I feel, I think it may be as good as I can be in this situation mentally. I think time will tell. Yeah, I think, yeah, I'm looking forward to it, hopefully.

18:36And I'm hoping I get to spend more time with family and friends. And you sacrifice a lot over the years as well. So I'm hoping that will be really refreshing. And I'm looking forward to diving into club football 110 % and hopefully having more success on the pitch there. It's also really exciting and I think important. I remember there was a boss who worked at Radio 1 a long time ago, and he did a speech when he left Radio 1, and it always stuck with me. And I'm not the sort of person that, like, things don't stick in my brain for very long, but it's always stuck with me. And he was saying it's really important to have chapters that you want to get to, hopefully, in old age, and look back and go, there was this chapter, then there was this chapter, and it wasn't just sort of like one long merger of life.

19:16There are sort of these defining moments where you do shake things up, you do try to do things differently, or you do challenge yourself in different ways? Was that something conscious with this decision, would you say? I think not so much with this decision. I think moving to Paris, that was a big thing. Like, especially maybe it's a bit uncommon to do it in your 30s, like when you may be settling down. And, you know, I had five incredible years at Manchester United, super settled there. So to make the decision to step out of that new country, new language, new way of training, philosophy of the game, I think that was the part of stepping out of my comfort zone I want to challenge myself I want to learn I want to I want to push myself here because I you know I agree I think great things happen outside your comfort zone I think that's when you learn more and as a player I think it gives you like a completely different stimulus but also as a person it teaches you a lot about yourself yeah what do you think you've learned about yourself from this move because like you say it's not just the game it's you that you're in a completely different country new culture you don't know anyone there I mean first and foremost I didn't think I could work harder before I went I was like no I'm like I'm at capacity and then I think I've added even more to my plate but I'm really enjoying like I feel I wake up in the morning and I'm like I'm I'm challenged the training challenges me it's a completely different approach to things and I think it's added different things to my game and that excites me I think that's what I've learned about myself if I'm learning something if I feel challenged then I feel fulfilled I think in a way like if I'm working on something and I think that's that's what I've learned myself I can I can deal with more adversity and would you say like the flip side of that if you hadn't had this big life switch up would have been complacency yeah I think that was a big thing that that drove me I think my biggest fear in life apart from flying I'm not a massive fan of spiders No, I hate flying.

21:10I've got the Euro tunnel all the way at the moment. I love the Eurostar, yeah. It's fabulous. Quite expensive though. Bloody expensive. Really expensive. Like, not ideal. But I have to fly with football. Like, I think it's helped me get over my fear a little bit. But I'm really not a great flyer. But I used to have to take medication to fly. Don't have to do that. That's good. Currently, touch wood. Good. Is that wood? No, metal, but just touch it anyway. Touch metal. Yeah, touch metal. So that's great. and yeah you just sometimes have to do things that you don't want to do but I think yeah complacency that that freaks me out like biggest fear is dying sorry morbid dying without I agree maxing out on every single ounce of potential I like I can look at myself in the mirror and go I made that decision didn't quite work out the way I thought it was going to do no problem but at least I was bold enough to make it yeah at least I had the female balls to grab life seize the day and go for it you know what I'm okay with that not being brave enough to make a decision that I think would be good for me that's what that I I'm the person who has to look at myself in the mirror every day like when you the right decision doesn't always feel good so like the right decision can be really difficult really sad two things can be true at the same time but it can still be good for you and good for others as well and I think that's definitely complacency are probably the biggest insult you can say world of social media you can say a lot about me complacent oh I probably shouldn't say that but it really gets under my skin like I'm a grafter I hear you I feel the same I don't like that feeling of coasting yeah or like I'm just going through the motions I'm like you I want to be you know pushing myself and trying new things even if I'm doing it badly but like exactly exactly trying yeah this is also the second an episode where we need to land on the female equivalent of grabbing life by the balls we had this with Ellie Simmons it's like oh you did by the tits what are we doing yeah what are we grabbing yeah what are we grabbing I'm grabbing something yeah I'm growing something but why is it just like the balls fuck the balls like we need I want a female equivalent yeah we're gonna we're gonna brainstorm that all right out to the listeners okay if you have any ideas do let us know TBC The market's uncertain.

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24:58You've been on just such an incredible roller coaster throughout your career with immense pressure almost always, because that is the nature of elite sports is that there is always pressure. And I think, you know, we've had Leah on the podcast, Serena on the podcast, especially with women's football. there is just this added layer of pressure where there was zero visibility forever and then all of a sudden you guys came along and we're all talking about it and that's amazing but the pressure comes from you have to keep at the top of your game and succeeding to be visible so that's something that I think you know men's football don't have to even think about everyone watches it everyone knows the players and the teams you guys have had to create the space to go hello we're over here We're being insanely talented of what we do and working really hard.

25:48And you've got that topped with being a goalkeeper, which is, again, a sort of an untalked about position in the game. Did you feel that pressure when you were part of the international team? Or do you remember you still feel that now playing for a club team? That visibility is important for future generations of women and just women even outside of sport. I think it felt quite visceral to me, you guys winning the Euros. it was just like fuck oh I've got all these feelings and sort of like rage and joy and I was crying and it's like what is this I can't even play football but it's like it's so much more than football yeah I I think that I mean that is so much in that question that I know I wasn't a question no when no but when you were talking I was just like yes yes I have so much to contribute to this conversation um yeah I think from the goalkeeping point of view a big thing that I've wanted to do is make goalkeeping call which you've done tick thanks I'm trying long there's still stuff to do but I think that goalkeeping isn't is a position which I guess there are a lot of similarities between that as a as a topic and women's football as a whole it's not looked at it's it's yeah it's overlooked like all the big brands and businesses their marketing strategies are geared around the sexy strikers and the the fast players and the wide players and yeah that hasn't been my my life and my position so I think getting yeah trying to get some equality in that area and some visibility in that area it's really important because there are a lot of kids out there young people old people as well who want to who play the game and play goalkeeper and don't get the respect that they deserve and they deserve to be represented so if I can do my small part in that then I'm absolutely over the moon and yeah represent goalkeeping in some way and yeah like women's football as a whole for sure I think it's been very new like the success over the last kind of two three years it's definitely been building I mean you see women's sport on a global scale at this point killing it like the WNBA crazy yeah and I just think it's on a really great train and it's like get on or get out because it's moving with or without you anyway yeah long may it continue that we've come a long way there's still a lot of barriers and stuff to break down but I think the success over the last few years has definitely been a massive help in getting us in the room to have a conversation yeah giving us a platform giving us a voice and giving us yeah a bit more respect I mean I watched again I mean obviously I watched the Euros when it was happening but I watched you guys winning again in the run-up to today and I had the exact same reaction I just wept and it's like a sort of it's like an ancestral thing of like women that came before us it's like we're fucking doing it like you know I can't play football as I said and I'm not obviously on the England team but I felt like part of it like for sure this is for women and it just felt so huge and and just like deep within me like inexplicable can't articulate what that is but just tears crying and crying it was just magnificent but it's I think that's that's what was for me the most amazing thing about it I mean that was my first proper trophy I would say that I that I won I think at that time I'm pretty sure it was like and maybe maybe won like the school trophy but I don't think I think that was my first proper senior trophy which to do that with your country is unbelievable but I think that was the beauty of it of one it was standing on the shoulders of the women that came before us yeah it was a whole life's work from like an individual point of view but all of us together like we've all been working at different ages different experience levels different journeys and paths to come together and achieve this amazing thing like it would it was it was emotional and then it meant so much to so many people in all different walks of life for so many reasons and that's the best I think that's been the best thing about it I always thought that winning the trophy would be the thing that I loved the most and held on to the most and don't get me wrong it's fantastic yeah but what it actually represented and the movement that it created and the the connection it created for people and the most the inspiration that for me was the best part of of being able to achieve that yeah it was a cultural shift it was it was massive and it felt seismic you know it felt fucking huge yeah did you this might be a silly question but did you watch the game back on tv after do you sit there and watch it and go bloody hell no i haven't actually ever watched the final back i don't think i've watched i've watched parts of it back for sure I've watched highlights I've watched bits but like it's mad actually that you've just said that I never even thought of it that way but obviously all of the games when you're playing them you watch back well I always watch all my games back I watch all my clips back I then tend to go through it with the goalkeeper coach okay what did I do whether win lose draw yeah what went well what can I improve on I've got a question about this and obviously that's part of your development as a player obviously after we won that game I mean I just burst into tears sobbing my little heart out but then you got you you're off partying yeah square living it up you know we had a lovely like family and friends team event then we had a team event just as like girls and a few staff amazing and then you go off on holiday and you're like oh my god this is amazing and it's just like but i've never watched that i've never watched i probably should watch it back and be like it's like the most joyful thing you'll ever see definitely He watched like parts of the game back and especially the latter bit of extra time, like that whole scenario.

31:14Terrifying. Goosebumps. At the time, I actually did the maths wrong of how many minutes we had left in my head because I just couldn't concentrate anymore. It was so hot as well. So intense. So hot in Wembley that day. And obviously, Chloe got the winner. Oh, what a day. What a day. Tops were off. Oh, I just love it. if I were you I would have watched back like a highlights reel of all the best saves I'd done on repeat I just stare at myself going I am so great I'm like I am so amazing maybe I should do that when I'm having a down day look at that jump I just did look at that like it's just a phenomenal thing a phenomenal thing would you say because you know you've said already in this chat you wanted to elevate goalkeeping yeah you wanted to help put women's football on the map right more than done both of those things do you feel proud it's quite a strange thing to land on feeling proud and to admit it especially as a British person would you say you are?

32:06I'm immensely proud of everything of everything that we've achieved like absolutely crazy I think it's hard for me to look back at what I've done personally I think because I feel it's not done I think maybe I'll never be good at looking back and I don't know but I think it is important to celebrate those wins in those moments and I think one of the things I did do well in fairness to myself was I always went into every tournament and game that I played like this could be my last one like this could be the absolute last so be present make the most of every single moment and like remember what it feels like yeah that's so important and one of my friends who's um I think she's actually the most decorated footballer of all time actually about Peter I'm not I'll have to I'll have to check but she's German player and I played with her in Wolfsburg and she told me this is gonna sound really dodgy but I tried to explain it on a panel recently and then it went really west so please just give me a try um she told me like don't forget to smell the grass and you can imagine the direction that went into but I didn't think that way when she said to me and I was like I get it this you're like yeah that I need to be completely in it remember what all your senses are doing in this moment yeah because the reality of it is is playing for your country like I mean yeah my that chapter for me is now over like there's it it goes so quick yeah but it you know and so I wanted it to just I don't know I think you know football consumes my life it's I eat sleep breathe repeat it and I tried to just yeah throw myself into it so I think that's what I did do really well but looking back and being like oh yeah I think that was good no I think what you're talking about is more important the way that you've done it and having those moments of being really present is more important than anything like we've had countless people on here if I pluck one from my brain now like when when John Bon Jovi came on he said name drop and a half that one get that in there I will do some more of those during this interview can't wait um he said he wishes that he enjoyed all of it more like especially in the 80s where they were peak success because I'm imagining there was you know a hell of a lot of excess which obviously is not in your arena but there is perhaps a desire and I even feel this in my own little way that you just want to get to the end so you feel the relief of it's done.

34:20I've done it and it went well. I'm like, fuck, fuck, you know. And actually what I try to do now, even in a situation like this, is every now and again throughout a conversation go, oh, I'm really enjoying this chat. This is really cool. And like have that actual cognitive thought of, I'm so lucky that I get to do this. This is so cool. Rather than sort of get to the end and go and get the kids from school and then I need to go and fucking feed the tortoise and blah, blah, blah, you know, just go on and on looking for the relief. whereas actually those little glimmers of I am here stood on the football pitch people are shouting this is glorious that's so important yeah I couldn't agree more with what you've and I think that the there's been a lot of yeah difficulties and obstacles in my journey but I think that is maybe the biggest thing that I'm the most grateful for the adversity what it taught me wouldn't wish what happened to me on on anyone because it took me to some really dark places but the reality of it is I mean also it's just football like life happens that was really deep but you can find yourself in dark places for one reason or another and I think that I ended up there and ended up coming out of that the other side but what it taught me was life happens quickly and it changes quickly and everything is temporary and if you can just smell the grass in this instant like if you can do that like it just made everything that I did so much more enjoyable and so much more memorable like I remember in the Euros sometimes I'd just go outside and like sit in the sun at base camp and read my book and I like remember that because I was deliberately trying to remember everything like oh isn't this amazing isn't this amazing that we've got like a barista here and I can just have like a coffee and it's good coffee and I'm gonna sit in the sun and I'm going to enjoy this book.

36:10And I'm doing that while representing my country and I've just finished training and the sunshine. I don't know. Like, I think that's the thing that, the difficulties that I've had, like, you know, had to face. I'm glad that it taught me that. Yeah, without a doubt. Oh my God, there has to be something to counter that darkness that you feel that, you know, if you're lucky to get through it and I'm in the same boat as you, I had a dark patch and I'm, you know, out of it. And it's not all plain sailing, obviously, but you do I think come away with a sense of gratitude for one million percent normal things one that oh my god I could not agree more that was the biggest thing of uh like I was speaking to I'd like did therapy and stuff like that and the biggest difference between before and where I am now is I can just like facetime my gran and I can have a coffee and I can speak to my friends and family and I can go for a walk and I know it sounds really stupid but like I think if you put your life a foundation of that in gratitude then it makes life so much more enjoyable pre that before the 2019 2020 I would be like running through the weeks I'm like right okay I need to get this training session done then I've got that game when that's over then I'm on to the next game and okay I'm not playing in that games but maybe I'll play the next one and time was just flying and I wasn't enjoying things as much I didn't realize I wasn't enjoying things as much but I was just like wishing time away in essence and also I guess you're then putting the majority of your happiness on an outcome so you can only feel happy if you're picked for the team if you then win the game if you save every goal that comes your way that's where your happiness is placed whereas actually if it's more on I got to FaceTime Minan guaranteed happiness right well And on the process of becoming.

38:01Yes. Like, as opposed to, I think before I was chasing perfection. I was chasing the outcome 1 million percent. This is only a good thing if I achieve this. And I was very, I had to, you know, it's very common to write down goals. Like, I mean, life, business, football is another thing. And for a while I like journaled and wrote down, right, this is what I want to achieve. And I stopped doing that because as soon as I was writing it down and I was like, right, I want to achieve this. And then in my brain as a competitor, I'm like, I want to achieve this by this age or by this point. I was, everything was like a disappointment because, you know, as an ambitious person, you're setting these goals and you're falling short and then it's seen as a failure.

38:39And then I felt like everything I was doing was not enough. It wasn't good enough. And I think ironically, when I started figuring out, okay, who am I? Who do I want to be? What's important to me? Who am I as a player? and I stopped trying to be everything that maybe I thought I should be and what other people thought I should be, everything started to fall into place much, much better. Isn't that an amazing epiphany, that moment of changing the parameters of success to suit what you want them to be? It's not like an outside decision for other people to go, you are a success because, and you've done that anyway.

39:20Do you know what I mean? It's not like you have to worry about that so much but I think when you work out your own value system and what you think success as like yes success is sitting in the sun having a coffee with a book like that is a beautiful moment of life yeah and there was we talked we talked about this on the podcast the other day about I think it's called something like deferred happiness syndrome where happiness lives in the future so I'll be happy when we win the euros I'll be happy when whatever whereas actually like life is now like it's now, it's literally as we're sat in these chairs, it is happening now.

39:52And I think it must be incredibly complicated to apply that to the world of sporting where outcome is sort of everything. It's what the crowd are clinging on to. It's what the commentary team are talking about. Everyone's talking about the results. So I think it must take a hell of a lot of effort to not attach still a lot of your self-worth and happiness to that outcome. It's hard. Yeah, I think it happened almost out of feeling so beaten down. I think I just, that was then my, right, let's put one foot in front of the other and let's just see. Like that, I'm so detached from the outcome of stuff because it was so far away.

40:29So then I think when I then came back into the squad and was then playing a really top level for the national team with extreme amounts of pressure, my big thing was, okay, now don't change what got you here. And I think that was my big thing that I, that was the only thing I was consciously thinking about. So for example, it's going to sound really goofy. When I wasn't in the national team, I had to figure out, and kind of links back to what you were saying earlier about women's football. It's different from men's football. It's different from the men's world. I was in a position where I felt my football career as a whole was coming to an end.

41:03And I was like, what am I going to do? Like, I've got a business degree, like, but do I just dive straight into a corporate job? Like, where am I going from this? and it was just a a crazy time of right I need to speak to people what am I going to do spoke to who's now my agent and how can I I wanted to be a pundit back then a commentator back then and so I was like right then I was being fed back that I don't have a big enough profile to do commentary at the level I wanted like well just on tv getting any opportunity was impossible you need to work away go like go away and so I started working with with with someone who told me to start doing TikTok I was like mortified I was like I'm not a dancer um little did I know my hips don't lie um so that happened and so I was kind of working on different projects like that um doing a little bit of TikTok trying to inspire young people to get into football young girls to get into football via TikTok that was all what it was about like yeah my agent was like you all these people that you want to inspire they're on TikTok and you're not on TikTok so it makes no sense anyway so that happened and I ended up building quite a big profile on there yeah unexpectedly but I enjoyed doing it because nobody was bothered no one was asked about what I was doing I was out of the fold I wasn't playing for the national team I was just minding my own business playing for United focused on that and then like okay clearly I'm I'm going into something else then I ended up getting a contract extension and then I got back into the national team and suddenly my career just went on a completely different trajectory than what I expected and my big thing was I'm not gonna stop what I'm doing because first of all it's given me a lot of joy it's given me a way to switch off but I'm not gonna stop what got me here I'm not gonna stop showing my personality just because now I'm in more of the public eye and I'm gonna be open to more criticism I'm I'm gonna continue to and there was definitely a moment where I was like right am I am I gonna stop doing this stuff and I was like no this is who I am like um the reality of women's sport which I think we don't acknowledge a lot is it's not millions of pounds you know per week per year where you're set for life that's not the reality and that's okay you know as as much as that would be fantastic that's not what people are asking for you know that's not what we've we're campaigning for asking forever we just want to be respected more in the conversation equal opportunity except and it's a process anyway long long long story short but I really had a conscious choice of okay I I need to continue doing this it's important we're female athletes in order to have longevity in my life and be able to like football is short you retire before 40 yeah in best case I mean some of the some players in a very rare occasions have retired in their early 40s like it it's not it's temporary yeah so you have to prepare for later life now we've been afforded some of these amazing commercial opportunities where we're able to prepare a little bit better for that we're not like these you know this this crazy life doesn't last forever so yeah made a conscious choice don't know if that that was a real waffly answer hi this is nox from the podcast with nox and jamie and maybe like us at the podcast you also know people who have been smokers or vapors.

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45:38FIGS gives me one less thing to worry about. Get 15 % off your first order by visiting wearfigs.com and use code FIGSRX at checkout. That's wearfigs.com, code FIGSRX. I think what is so interesting listening to you talk is during that dark patch mentally, it's very hard to feel any sense of motivation. I'm talking personally, I don't know what's going through your head, but it's hard to feel motivated. often your confidence is hugely not so you feel terrified to try something new absolutely but it seems that there is a huge part of your personality that is always going to look for the chink of light it's always going to look for well like you say I'll try TikTok and you could have just completely gone either I don't want to do that that is so not where my head's at right now or just I haven't got it in me but you're looking for solutions you're looking for ways to move forward even when the path doesn't seem clear is that that's just part of your personality I think so I think I think probably that goes back to my childhood of I was thrown into any activity that I wanted to do which I was so fortunate with that like it was I think it was kind of my parents took the mentality of like throw more to see what sticks yeah and so I was I tried dancing badminton swimming like you know and I know not everyone has the opportunity to try these things and I was very fortunate to be able to do that and figure out like what I liked and what I didn't but the reality of that is you're not good at everything and like I was a dreadful swimmer like there's a fantastic story of me going to one of my first ever like swim meets you know swimming competitions and these swimmers would be going 4am every morning before school I had a kid like that at school yeah very very committed yeah fantastic I was more of a oh I want to go to kind of keep my fitness up for football I think it's really good like strength work body weight work Like my job is throwing my body around.

47:34The connect made sense. So I went on like six o 'clock of an evening and I would do my best, but you know, I wasn't competent. So why the hell I would go into a competition? I don't know because I wasn't competing for anything. I was competing for nothing in that race. And I don't know what, what straight it was. I feel it must've been butterfly. Oh, I can't even do butterfly. That's impossible. Again, why butterfly? Doesn't make sense to me, butterfly. Why butterfly? The only the most complicated stroke. What are you doing? So hard. Doesn't make any sense. Wiggly body thing. What is it? The coordination.

48:04It wasn't coordinating. Anyway, so it was at like the university pool in Nottingham, which I recall being massive. Like, you know, it's not just like your local. It's an Olympic pool. Yeah, not a leisure. No. No, not a leisure centre, which I was used to. There's no jacuzzi on the side. No, there wasn't. There wasn't a get out, but, you know, there weren't stairs I could just get out of. There was these diving. Anyway, so I was in the pool and I kid you not, this length was this this race was two lengths and I was almost an entire length behind everybody else I'm not this is not an exaggeration you can ring my parents and ask and when I tell you that the crowd which I'm assuming was mostly parents was giving it the odd yeah she's still swimming guys she's still going and I got a clap on the way in and my parents always say to me you were nearly drowning from laughing because you just found it and I was never bothered by stuff like that like not not being afraid to try but I think that's because I was put in situations where wasn't very good at stuff was prepared to give it a go you know the the attitude I had a brother and a younger brother and a younger sister still do have a younger brother and a younger sister and I grew up in with them and it was like you know just just have a go just try and so I do think that's part of my personality but I think that was part of the difficulty of the darkness businesses I'd lost all of that like didn't want to leave the house like and and it and it is hard and you know it manifests itself in different ways for different people but I was like who am I like what am I doing like what is the point of this life at this like what what is my direction and I'd never felt so purposeless before I think I'm very driven by what aligns me I want to do things that align with my values I want to work with people who align with my values and I suddenly just didn't really know what I was doing or who I was.

49:53Was the entirety of that dark patch attributed to being dropped from the England team? Was that what triggered it? I think that's what triggered it. I think, again, through education and through some, you know, talking to the psychologists, I think I realized it was an accumulation of things that I'd been burying for a long time. And a particular highlight was, wow, you've had to be resilient. And when you, I guess you push stuff down. We all do. We're all guilty of it in different ways. And I think that I'd buried stuff for a while that I had to address. And I think it just triggered a lot of stuff.

50:32And so at this point, you're potentially thinking of quitting football, feeling a bit untethered, not quite sure where you're going in life. Right. And how the hell do you begin to climb out of that? Was it Serena then reinstating your position in the team that helped you? No, I mean, that was, that gave, that gave my career a different trajectory, but I feel like my healing was before that or my start of healing was so light. I think sort of 2020, that year was pretty dark. COVID definitely didn't help me out, but maybe did help me out in a way. Like I think COVID made it worse because you're on your own.

51:08Everyone's in a, I mean, it was scary. It was a scary time. No one knew what was happening. and then the football season stopped our football season came to an end early I believe um and I had a period of time where I was on my own at home like figuring out like but then I think it got worse before it got better if you know I mean so maybe I needed that time to hit rock bottom yeah maybe, maybe that's what it was. And I think I proactively did things that I didn't realize I was being proactive about subconsciously. I think I felt like I just let myself to rot, like wasn't particularly bothered about training.

51:49I'd never felt that way for, I'd never had felt like I wasn't motivated. I've never struggled with motivation. What motivates me in the morning, getting up, being better than I was yesterday, learning something new. And so yeah, coming out of that like I don't people ask me I still don't know how I think I just took every day as it came and eventually started to get joy not just from football I think maybe what I did was attribute my entire personality and identity as a person into my identity as an athlete so then when my athlete life and career and world came crashing down my world came crashing down I had to figure out okay who am I without football what do I enjoy okay I enjoy going for a coffee I enjoy going for a walk I enjoy facetiming my people and yeah kind of taking it really really yeah back to basics I suppose yeah like you say that you know there's possibly not one thing that helps you on that trajectory to feeling better but I think certainly when you're feeling really shit and you don't know know who the hell you are and I had a very similar sort of experience in terms of leaving lots of jobs and going god I don't know what do I even like I don't know anything anymore like nothing makes sense it's such an interesting time to start figuring that stuff out and to actually go and I think I know myself a hell of a lot better because of all of that but do you say you've got a pretty good sense of self today I think so I think that taught me a lot about myself and I think I'm I try to be more clued up now on and conscious of okay how do I feel like like why do I feel that way yeah and I think that's definitely try and catch things early like if okay I feel I feel frustrated like why am I frustrated and trying to understand where the emotions coming from rather than like putting it because I think I'm a very good compartmentalizer I think you do need to be as an athlete to cope with that pressure put things to the side because we all have things going on in our personal lives that we have to deal with like at the world cup in 2023 I think I played some of my best football and I had so much going on off the pitch and so I think I became a really good compartmentalizer so yeah choosing to choosing to sit in the darkness sometimes so like you know people will sometimes say like put a light on you know shine like if If it feels dark, put a light on.

54:19It's not as simple as that. Sometimes, no, I need to sit in the darkness. I need to allow myself to feel. Don't tell me that I don't feel that way. Don't tell yourself, oh, you're not sad. Get on with it. Just get on with it. There's other people out there who have a worse life than you, Mary. Your life isn't that hard. Look at all the amazing things. It's just, okay, I feel this way. That is valid. Why do I feel that way? Process it, feel it, and then I can move on from it. that's personally what it feels works best for me. Absolutely agree with you. I think when you, I used to deny myself of feeling anything, like, cause everybody else would go, oh my God, you're so lucky in this and that.

54:57And obviously people don't know what's really going on in your life or your head or whatever, or whatever's actually true to you. But I used to go, just shut up, just stop it. Just get on with it. Like, just be, don't feel like this. Just be grateful. And actually all it does is elongate that period of darkness. It just goes on and on. And the moment I started proper weekly therapy, which I still go to everybody Wednesday, is allowing myself to feel those feelings, validating them so I can move through because I don't want to feel like that. I want to experience it, as you say, sit in the darkness and then it will pass quicker rather than beating yourself up for having feelings.

55:33I mean, we're humans. And yes, there are baseline things that we are grateful for and lucky to have, whether it's a warm home or food and all of those things. you know we do not need to be taking those for granted but you're still allowed to have feelings you're still no matter if you've just won the euros or not you're still allowed to have feelings I think giving yourself permission to really feel shit is so important really really agree yeah it's a big one big one it's a real big one god I'm so happy that you've navigated that and that you've come out the other side and and also I think you know it's it does give most people I would say a new level of confidence because you know yourself better and it seems like you are in a very confident place of you know what you want for doing it yeah I think that it it does give you a new sense of self of like I know what I who I am and I know that some people aren't going to understand that and I accept that but as long as I can look at myself in the mirror and know I did everything with the best intentions um I showed up and I was authentic and I tried to do the right things in the right way with integrity all the align with me are important to me I tried to be fair I tried to be honest I think yeah that's that's all you can really do is show up and be the best version of yourself and accept that sometimes you know you're a peach and you're a juicy peach and sometimes you can be the juiciest peach in the world and people just don't like peaches some people just prefer apples like correct and I think yeah maybe that's maybe that's what I come out with it I don't know I guess I've not really thought on on that way I think what is the most important to me and the why I try to be open and vulnerable about it which is not always easy to do is because if someone anyone can look at me and know that I actually achieved my career highs like the best days came after the worst darkness ever and I think that yeah if that can be a source of inspiration to anybody then I hope it is and I think yeah coming through that I feel like I think the scary thing is you don't want the darkness to ever come back again and you're always working yourself to hope that doesn't happen but like to know that I've come through that gives me confidence that that was like my hardest battle yet yeah you know And you could do it again.

57:52If I had to, I could do it again because I've done it already. But, you know, just hoping that that doesn't keep working on myself so that doesn't happen. But I think especially when, you know, you're an athlete and you're coping with it. I don't think people talk in this way. And I know it's so common for everyone in every walk of life. Like, yeah, it's I think we have more similarities than we maybe share with one another. Yeah. I know that when I first started talking about this a couple of years ago, when I had the confidence to talk about it, I had so many people write into me comments, messages, emails, stopping me in the street.

58:27Not talking about football. Nope. Nope. Not interested. Only, which is great, by the way, have no problem. Not everyone has to like football. Just want to talk about this and thank you for speaking. And it helped my daughter. It helped my mom. It helped me. It helped me get me out of a dark place. Your words helped me. yeah that has meant more to me than I think anything that I've ever achieved in football similarly with the goalkeeper shirts like being able to help create change for other people's life means way more than anything I've achieved for my own life you know yeah well you it's purpose isn't it you feel that sense of purpose and drive and but I think it's it's phenomenal because you are undoubtedly helping so many people by especially in the sports world talking about these things that often get ignored and connecting the dots because so many people out there feel the same and actually I think what you've said is so helpful that you can have some of your best days after the worst worst thing has happened to you or or you've been in the worst mental space that it is possible to feel okay again and of course you don't feel like it in the moment you know you didn't I didn't you feel like the world is over everything's gone to shit but there can of course you know all this too shall pass and good things can happen and it's so so important to his stories like that and i'm again very grateful for you talking about all of this on happy place because it's what we like to do is have big honest fucking chats i love it this has been fabulous conversation i'm having a present moment right now this is a great yeah me too i'm enjoying it i'm just writing a note here this is good loving it um i would love to know where mary is your happy place where is my happy place oh i mean it's a a place that's built on gratitude it's the small things it's not a place it's just it's like a i don't know i learned i learned the word flow state yeah i love flow state don't really know entirely what it means but you have it in sport when you're just in the fucking zone you're not thinking about i have it if i'm painting a picture and i'm like not even thinking about anything.

1:00:25Flow state. Yeah. I don't have to be doing anything particular. I can be on the pitch, off the pitch. But when I'm just grateful for my surroundings, that's my happy place. When I'm taking a present moment to be like this, this conversation right now, so great. We're in flow. We're in flow. This is my happy place. I love that. Mary, thank you so much. I've loved talking to you today. Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure. Oh, Mary. Bloody love that. I want to hang out with Mary. I want to, like, I don't know. Would we go out drinking? Probably not. She's too healthy. She's a footballer.

1:00:56Would go to a spa for the day. I think we'd have a right laugh. I just love that chat. And I love that she is certainly part of that new generation of sports person who is really showing us the highs and the big lows of not only elite sport, but just what it is to be a human doing something at that level. It was really fascinating to chat to her more about that. But I've loved what she's been putting out on social media and how she talks about mental health in general. Brilliant stuff. There's a really good documentary on the BBC, which I watched in prep for this chat. It's called Mary Queen of Stops.

1:01:32Clever, eh? It's very, very good. If you want to remind yourself of just how wonderful she is in action. Okay, a slight gear change here, because I want to tell you about the book that we're going to be reading together for the Happy Place Book Club in July. It's called Don't Let Him In by Lisa Jewel. Oh, my God. I couldn't put this book down. You know when you're reading at night and your eyes are involuntary closing, but you can't stop. It's that. So he seems to be the perfect man. You think he might literally be made for you. So before long, he's moved into your house and your heart, but then he starts leaving for a few days at a time and you're not sure where he's gone or who he's with.

1:02:09See, it's great, isn't it? You start digging into his past. If you could turn back time, would you tell yourself not to let him in? You've got to read this book. It's so, so good Don't Let Him In is the book you want to get your hands on if you want to read along with us and chat in depth about this book on Instagram at Happy Place Book Club alright until next time a massive thanks again to Mary to the producer Anushka Tate at Happy Place Studios and to you you gorgeous lot

1:03:07We'll see you next time.

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