Feel walked over? Mel Robbins on turning pain into personal power

0:00Hello, I'm Fern Cotton and this is Happy Place, the show that makes sure you feel in control of your own life. Today, I'm chatting to Mel Robbins. How do I stop focusing on other people and what they think, what they feel, what they do, and let them. Let them have their opinions. Let them think what they want to think. Let them do what they're going to do. Let them be disappointed. Let them misunderstand me. Let them, let them, let them. And then let's take the power back and constantly cue ourselves. Let me remind myself that there's one person whose happiness I'm in charge of. It's mine. Oh my God.

0:38Do you know how excited I've been about this episode? I woke up today in the best bloody mood knowing I was going to see Mel in real life. We've had quite an interesting little friendship, a very modern friendship. We met first on Zoom and we swapped numbers and we've been texting here and there and DMing over the years. I love following what she's doing on Instagram and listen to her podcast too. And just the thought of seeing her in real life and it did not disappoint. she bounded into the studio wearing the most exceptional, I'm going to call them clogs I've ever seen. These sorts of amazing platform clogs.

1:13And she's given me the website I'm obviously going to copy and buy them immediately. And we just got stuck into this bloody great chat. And I love her even more than I already did. How is that humanly possible? So let's talk about Mel. What a legend she is. I definitely feel like I've referenced her a lot in previous Happy Place episodes. Many things that she said the first time we spoke resonated and I've applied it to many parts of my life. And actually, I've mentioned her more recently because of her let them mantra, which has really struck a chord with me. Mel is one of the most sought after experts in mindset, behavior change and life improvement.

1:54Her new book is called The Let Them Theory. This book and the chat we're about to have is all about how to stop wasting energy on what you can't control and start focusing on what truly matters. As I say, I really latched on to the idea when I first heard it, because I know how much energy I have wasted, how much anger I have felt, frustration, injustice due to not being able to change how other people are acting. So this book and the mantra has taught me a hell of a lot. There's loads more in this chat too, having opinions about how other people are behaving, protecting your own time and energy, and what jealousy might be telling you.

2:31I think you're going to love it.

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4:44My chat with Mal is coming right up, I promise. But I just thought I'd give those of you who haven't got your tickets to the Happy Place Festival yet a little bit of a nudge. We're in Gunnersbury Park on the 12th and 13th of July and Tatton Park on the 30th and 31st of August. Davina McCall is going to be there. Yes. So is Vogue Williams, Scott Thomas, Dame Kelly Holmes. And obviously there's going to be so many workshops that you can be a part of. Breathwork, meditation, arts and crafts. I promise you're going to love it so much. Go and grab your tickets at happyplacefestival.com. All right, let's do it.

5:20Here's the show.

5:44Mel! Fern! Oh my gosh, we're in person. We're in real life. The last time we spoke was on Zoom. Don't like Zoom. But we're in actual real life. It was 2021 the last time I spoke to you. It has been four years. It's ridiculous. What is it about? I'm about to say it, but I think it's true for everybody. I think in particular when you have kids, the time goes like that. There's something about how quickly time goes. I can't believe it was four years. But weirdly, 2021 feels like it was a year ago. It's sort of like, what? This is just a weird time warp that we're in. It's really strange. But I am thrilled you're here.

6:18You've literally just flown in. How are you feeling? I hate the feeling of getting off a plane and having to do things. Well, I thought I was going to take a nap because I had a couple hours. And then I just got checked into the hotel and was so excited to see you that I couldn't do fuck all. So I was just like, all right. And so then I took a cold shower to try to wake me up. That's the best. Yes. And now I'm here. I'm so glad. One thing that is a huge difference since I last spoke to you is that now half the planet walks around with let them tattooed on their body somewhere. That must be wild?

6:52The success of this book and the way that this theory has resonated with people around the world is not only wild, but I am so excited that it has resonated profoundly with people around the world, particularly in this moment in time where I think everybody feels stressed out and overwhelmed and the world feels like it's spinning out of control regardless of where you live. Everybody's got somebody in their life that they're worried about. Most of us are concerned about AI and feeling redundant in our jobs. And so to see a simple tool that helps remind you of what's in your control and what's not, be tattooed on people's bodies, be spreading around the world, it's just, it's really cool.

7:41How would you say this theory has changed your life specifically? I mean, you give some great anecdotal evidence of how it's changed your life. What would you say has been the most sort of profound change for you applying it? Oh, my God. I feel that that's a great question because there's so many ways in which the let them theory and saying let them and let me has changed my life. But if I had to encapsulate it in one broad stroke, it would be that I was living my life backwards. How so? Well, I, and I think everybody, and that's why this theory has exploded, is that you don't realize that for your entire life, the default is to think first about others, to give more weight to other people's moods and opinions and feelings and expectations than you give to your own.

8:38And so for the first 54 years of my life, I didn't realize the extent to which the default was thinking about how someone else might react. And I can give you a really just subtle example that we can all relate to and then we can unpack all the various ways that this thing has changed my relationships, changed the level of stress that I feel, just changed the way I go about my day-to-day life. But very, very simple example everybody can relate to is if you take out your favorite social media platform, right? Let's say you take out Instagram and you're going to put up a photo of something that happened this weekend.

9:13Something like we're not even going to talk about a photo that's about your business. Just you're just going to share about your personal life. As you go and you try to figure out what photo you're going to post, you start sorting through them and you're thinking, oh, this one, no, that one. Is that too much? Should I do that? And then you get the photo and then you put a filter on. And then you go to write the caption. And as you write the caption, you write a little and then you backspace. And then you think, should I put an emoji? And then you start wondering, like, if the caption is a little too this or too that.

9:41And then a lot of times you exhaust yourself so you hit draft. Yeah. And what's going on in that moment? What's going on is as you are simply trying to express yourself, the default is you're thinking, what are other people going to think about this? What are they going to do in response? Are people going to like it? Are they going to unfollow me? Are they going to gossip about me? Are they going to roll their eyes at me? And that's a subtle example of how you just gave weight to other people's reactions and thoughts, which are something you'll never be able to control. You just gave it weight and then use that concern to edit yourself and to question yourself.

10:25And it is everywhere in your life. What's the foundation of that? Is it because we don't want to be disliked? I think the foundation, you know, there's over 57 world renowned experts, many of whom you've had on this podcast that I interviewed for this particular book and in building this case. And, you know, if you want to go super, super, super deep, the foundation of it is built in us in childhood because human beings cannot actually survive unless another human being takes care of you. Yeah. And so through no fault of our own as little kids, you are hardwired to be connected to the adults around you.

11:04And so you're constantly monitoring is mom or dad in a bad mood? Like what's going on? How do I get their attention? And then of course, as you get older and you go into school, now the primary driver is I got to bond with friends. And so you're constantly looking outside yourself for validation that you're worthy, that you're likable, that you're safe. And that's where it begins. But nobody tells you, you know, when you're 18, 19, 20, I think we all know, don't care what people think. Oh, don't give a fuck about this. But knowing that and talking about it is completely different than teaching yourself how to care more about what you think and teaching yourself how to live your life in a way that makes you proud rather than constantly looking at other people for validation.

11:52And so the let them theory for me taught me how to do that. How do I stop focusing on other people and what they think, what they feel, what they do, and let them. Let them have their opinions. Let them think what they want to think. Let them do what they're going to do. Let them be disappointed. Let them misunderstand me. Let them, let them, let them. And then let's take the power back and constantly cue ourselves. Let me remind myself that there's one person whose happiness I'm in charge of. It's mine. And let me remind myself in any given situation, this kind of blew my mind when you really start to unpack it.

12:29There's only three things in life you can control. Only three. It's what you think about what's happening. It's what you do or don't do. And it's what you do in response to the feelings that rise up. That's it. The one thing you can never control is another human being. And yet you spend so much time and energy and give so much power to trying to control other people. And there's an easier way to go through life. Just let them, let them be who they are. It's so stressful. to get into the real sort of nuance of this topic. What's the difference between let them and having someone walk all over you?

13:06Because I think that is a reaction many people have to this subject matter is, well, I just can't let them do this and that and do, you know, live however they want to live. It's impacting me. What's the difference between let them and someone walking all over you? Well, it's a great question. If somebody is walking all over you, they're already doing it. And you're probably making up a lot of stories in your mind about why, or you're explaining it away. Oh, they're in a bad mood. This is just how they are. I deserve this. And so one of the interesting things about let them is let them is not you saying, let them disrespect me.

13:41Let them walk all over me. Let them's a boundary. When you say let them, what you're actually doing is you are cuing yourself that this other human being's behavior is out of my control and it is data and it is a sign of what they think about me and how they prioritize me. And so when I say let them, I'm not letting them do anything. I am forcing myself to see things as they are. It's not excusing away behavior. It is recognizing the truth of the behavior. And so if you're in a situation, whether you have a parent who's got a narcissistic personality style, or you have a partner who is, you know, talks to you in a way that's very disrespectful, they've probably been doing it for a long time.

14:31That's not to say that you're at fault. I think what happens in relationships is it's very easy on social media to be like, oh, just stop talking to them. Oh, just do this. Oh, just cut them out. For most of us, the most challenging people we have in our life are related to. And so let them is a boundary that you create between you and other people where you are forcing yourself to recognize that another person's actions are the truth about who they are, how they feel about you. And most of the time, what you're going to notice when you start to say, let them, because you're not allowing it, you're recognizing it.

15:09And then you say, let me, let me remind myself that changing that other person is something I will never be able to do. Let me remind myself, I get to choose what I think about this. I get to choose what I do or don't do. And for many of us, it may mean when you start to say let them and you realize, oh, wait a minute. Every time I reach out to my siblings, they don't actually reach out back. Let them. It stings, but you're now recognizing that you're the person that's making the effort. The let me part is where you get your power, though, because you get to decide what you're going to do now that you recognize the dynamic.

15:54And for some of us, you may decide, you know, I just realized that I'm the person in my family that's the glue. That's the role that I play. And instead of like holding all this resentment and having a very transactional kind of tit for tat sort of I'm keeping track of who's doing what, I'm just going to let me embrace the fact that this is who I am. One of my values is family. I'm a big planner. I'm the fun one. And I'm going to stop expecting them to reach back out to me. and I'm going to just let them be who they are, but I'm going to let me be responsible for creating the kind of relationships I want to create with people.

16:31And sometimes when you say let them and you recognize how somebody is treating you and whether or not they're treating you with respect or whether or not it's reciprocal or whether or not they have good energy or they're putting the time in, you'll recognize this is no longer a relationship that really serves me. So let me just spend a little less time with this person? Well, this is the thing, you know, applying the let them theory means that people might disappear from your life. And they will. Yeah, they will. And that's, you know, perhaps a hard thing to stomach, but perhaps beneficial for everybody.

17:07Because I think the example you've just given there, all of us will have been dealt the silent treatment. And it's horrible. And there is an element of injustice there, I guess, as well. and I think actually many of the outcomes of the let them theory could end before you actually land on acceptance in a feeling of injustice what do we do with that feeling because it's horrible you're like going out of your mind you know it's not it's not fair you know what do you do in that circumstance well so you know at the heart of this theory what this what the let them theory is really about is it's about control.

17:41It's about power. And it's also about relationships. And a lot of us spend a lot of time and energy trying to control other people. We have huge opinions about how other people should behave and how they shouldn't behave. And the revelation for me is the more that I said, let them, whether it's the fact that they're doing, they're, you know, doing a big construction project in the middle of a Monday morning commute, and you're backed up in traffic and then you feel the stress rise up. I think we all agree you can't control when the city of London is going to do their construction. I mean, it's like every day.

18:17Yes. You can't control what other drives. So let them. And the reason why you say let them is because when you say let them, again, you're recognizing that traffic is out of my control. Therefore, if it's out of my control, why would I allow something that I cannot control to drain my most precious resource, which is my time and energy. And so when you start to say, let them, you're going to recognize all day long, there are these tiny little things that happen long, you know, cues at the, at the grocery store, people that are annoying at work, a bazillion zoom meetings that you have to attend.

18:57And the more you just say, let them, let them, let them, not only do you separate yourself from all these things that used to stress you out, but you also are building this protection of your time and energy. And you start to recognize that your time and energy really matters because you start to value it. And so I forgot what your question was. It's so irrelevant, my question. Because what you're saying is so, you've led my brain onto other things that I think are really, really important because that energy sapping quality of being stuck in a cycle of really hating someone, constantly bitching about someone in your head or otherwise to other people.

19:35A lot of this stuff is actually habitual. We're in a bad habit and we're sort of addicted to that feeling of they're pointing fingers. We all do it. Let me ask you a question. So in a situation where someone else has wronged you or somebody else is acting like a child and they are giving you the silent treatment because they're mad at you, if you get riled up and if you then try to reach out and smooth things over, even though you've done nothing wrong and they're acting like a child, or you spend weeks and weeks and weeks and weeks and weeks complaining about something, who actually has the power in that situation?

20:14They do. Correct. Yeah. And you are disrespecting yourself because you're not valuing your own time and energy. Instead, you're giving so much power to this other person. How do we know? Because you're riled up. Yeah. Because you're talking about them. Because you're rethinking everything that just happened versus saying, let them be upset with me. Yeah. I sent the one email and said, hey, you know, if you want to talk and I need to, let me know. Okay. Let them respond or not respond. So I guess it's also, you know, the let me bit of it is, yes, it's protecting your energy, but it's also, I guess, being accountable and noticing your own patterns of behavior, which we're all stuck in bad patterns and loops, you know, it's part of being a human being.

21:06But I think to have the self-awareness to go, oh, shit, every time that person does this or doesn't do that thing, this is the reaction I have. And I do have the power to change that. We sort of forget the autonomy we've got. You really do. And again, if we come back to what is the let them theory about, it's about power and control. And two simple words, let them, will reveal in an instant when you have power and when you don't. Yeah. So anytime you're stressed out, frustrated, annoyed, hurt, upset, bothered, whatever, just say those two words, let them. And you'll see that 95 % of the time what's stressing you out is the behavior or the opinions of someone else.

21:47or the fear of those things. And saying let them, again, helps you recognize, oh, here I go again. I'm worrying about and trying to control something I'll never be able to control. I mean, it is physically impossible to climb up inside someone else's head and actually guarantee that they will think a good thought about you. Yeah, I've tried. It doesn't work. Me too. I've tried to. And we all know this is true because the people that you care about the most, like my husband pisses me off all the time. I have nasty negative thoughts about him all the time. And here's the thing though, two things can be true at once.

22:30I can think that he's disgusting or that he's annoying or that he has too many questions or whatever else and still be madly in love with them. Of course. But we don't consider that's true about other people. Your parents can be disappointed that you're not going to spend the holiday with them and they can still love you. And you don't have to change your plans. Yeah. And you don't have to beat yourself up. Let them be pissed off. Yeah. They're adults.

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25:32So when you say let them, what you're acknowledging to yourself is that what these idiots at school are doing is something I can't control. And so focusing on them is not where my power is. My power is in the let me part. It's in let me decide what I'm going to do about this. Number one, I got to tell somebody. Number two, I got to do some research and figure out how I'm going to support myself if I'm going to continue to go into that work environment where I'm being bullied or that school environment where I'm being bullied. Let me remind myself that if I'm in a place that's unsafe, whether it's a relationship or a job, I'm not stuck there, even though I feel like I'm stuck there.

26:17And so let them, again, isn't allowing, it's recognizing. And it's recognizing that trying to change the abuser keeps you in an abusive relationship. The only power you have when you are in a situation where you're being bullied at work or bullied at school or bullied in a relationship is to change what you're doing, either by getting the hell out of there or by seeking support or changing. you know, like a lot of the world's leading experts on narcissism, in order to access their advice, and a lot of the advice if you're in a relationship with somebody who's narcissistic, is to not engage. They call it gray rocking.

27:00And one of the things that keeps a lot of us stuck in these toxic cycles with somebody who has somewhat of a volatile or a very challenging, shall we say, personality is the hope that they're going to change. And what's happened in my life is when I say let them and I recognize this is who this person is. This is how this person treats me. This is what they do when we talk about certain topics. This is what they're like when they drink. It forces me to recognize who I'm dealing with instead of gaslighting myself in some fantasy world that this person's going to magically change like some Disney movie.

27:39That's not happening. And so your power is not in expecting that other person to change or even hoping they will. Your power is in demanding more of yourself and saying, let me ask myself, is this behavior attractive? Is this behavior acceptable in my life? Is this behavior something I need to protect myself from? Is this behavior that I need to go and tell some friends this is going on and get advice? let me recognize that the only thing that changes this dynamic is if I change the way I think about it, or I change what I do in response to it, or I change how I respond to my feelings. Like when, you know, I've got somebody in my family who's very narcissistic due to their own childhood issues, always been this way.

28:25And for years, I would go to anything where this person was going to be just hoping, can this be the year that we can all get along for a week? Can this be the year that there's no arguments? Can this be the year that, you know, nobody's like creating alliances? You know, can this be the year without any snarky comments? Why on earth would I think things are going to change? And so literally saying, let them. Weirdly, don't you think that when you take back the control, they often then do change? Yes. I mean, yes, I'll tell you why. Because when you are, think about the most challenging person in your extended family.

29:05And think about how as you're driving to the thing, whether it's a wedding or a holiday or whatever, and you're kind of bracing for it. Yeah. You walk in, you're already bracing. You hope things are going to go better. And then things start to go sideways. And then you think you're trapped there. And then the same dynamic plays over and over. If you start using the let them theory and you say, just let them be who they are. They're not changing. Let them be who they are. Let them be who they're not. Let me walk into every interaction with eyes wide open, recognizing this is just who this person is.

29:38And so instead of giving them power, I'm going to like conserve my time and energy. I'm going to remind myself that I can leave any dinner table, any text chain. I don't have to engage. Yeah. Like when my energy is more chill, it just creates this space where you're not taking the bait. Yeah. It's like an energetic feeling. You can sense there's a shift. The one, you know, I can really see how I've incrementally applied let them, completely accidentally and through trial and error over the years. In the context, I guess I would use the word bullying. I used to feel really bullied by the British press at one point in my life.

30:18Well, they were bullying you. I mean, they're horrible. And I felt at that time like a complete victim. him. But the big shift for me was not only, you know, incrementally trying, let them out before I even knew it was a thing, but by having my own back, because I think in that era, I assumed anything they said was completely true. So I conflated their opinions of me with my own. And I abandoned everything I knew about myself. So, you know, I would, instead of thinking, well, I know that I'm knowledgeable in this area or this is my skill set. I'd go, yeah, I am fucking stupid. Yeah, I am an idiot.

30:54And I completely abandoned myself for their ideas. And then over the years, I sort of left certain jobs. So I was less involved in that kind of world. But actually, the biggest shift for me has been having my own back and going, no, I know what I'm doing. I know what I'm good at. I know I'm not a terrible person. So what they're saying, yes, let them say whatever the fuck they want to say. But I know myself. So I don't need to apply their opinion. That's been a big one for me. I want to unpack this in a greater detail because I think what you're pointing at is something that is important for all of us to understand.

31:31So the reason why the let them theory has exploded is, first of all, it's not a new idea. The theory itself is new, but this is stoicism. This is detachment theory. This is radical acceptance. This is a serenity prayer. This is Buddhism all applied in two words in a moment where you're stressed out or somebody's annoying you or like you're hurt about something. And so it's tapping into something that we know to be true. Okay. But the second reason why this works, and I think it's really important to understand is that I think we've all been in those things where like, you're like, well, I don't care what they think, or I know that's not true about me.

32:15And so I'm just going to – when you say the words let them, there's this really interesting psychological thing that happens that makes this thing powerful. Let them is not the same thing as saying let it go. Let it go. I've never been able to let anything go. Same. Well, because it feels like defeat. Like if I were to just say let it go, let the – you can't control it. Just let it go. You'd be like, but I don't want to let – it's bothering me. Yeah. When you say let them, there's this superiority and this attitude that you have where you're like, I see that shit you're doing. I'm going to just let you do that because I know that I'm not giving you any power.

32:54Yeah. So you go do your little thing over there. Yeah, that's a completely different tone to let it go. Yes. And so when you say let them, whether it's your friends that go away for the weekend and they don't invite you and it stings. Okay, it does sting. Let them. That was one of your actual experiences. Yes, absolutely. let them go away. And then you do the let me part. And after you kind of have the, you know, let them go away, let them go out to brunch, let them do that. You feel superior to the people that are frustrating you or making you upset. But then that superiority helps you detach from the emotion of hurt.

33:31So that's where the detachment theory piece comes in. But then you're going to have to sit with it and go, okay, well, now what? It still hurts. Then you say the let me part. And there are times when you are going to say, let me choose how I'm going to respond to this. And in the situation that you're talking about, friends of mine went away and I just saw it on social media. And of course I was bummed I wasn't invited. And the let them part helped me detach. Let them go away. I mean, it's already happened. So it's not like I can do anything to change what happened. But what was interesting is when I started saying, let me, let me choose what I want to think about this.

34:10Some of the things that came up immediately is, well, they can go away without me. Why do I have to be included in any? Aren't they allowed to have friends without me? And then the next part was, wait a minute, I'm responsible for my friendships. When's the last time I actually asked any of these people to do anything? When's the last time I hosted? When's the last time I invited people to go away for the weekend? And what you'll start to see if you're like me is that you may have a habit of just sort of expecting people to include you and yet you're not really doing your part in terms of planning and including them.

34:47And then you may also be the kind of person that when you see other people do things without you and you start saying, let them, and then you do the let me part, you may recognize, wow, I actually include people all the time. I do make a lot of effort. So maybe I'm putting too much time and energy into chasing people that aren't returning it. And so let me be honest with myself. Maybe I do need to invest in different friendships. And so it depends. The response is going to depend on the situation, the timing of your life, like how emotional you are, how tired you are. But it does force you to see I have a lot more power and a lot more options than I thought I did.

35:33I'll give you another example that's really important right now. So a lot of people are very concerned about getting laid off and redundancy and the economy. And if you're in a job where you feel layoffs are coming, before the let them theory, you'd probably sit there like a sitting duck frozen. Using the let them theory, it's going to help you recognize what's in your control and what's not. So you say, let them, let them do layoffs. Let them lay me off if they're going to lay me off, even though it's not fair, even though I've been here a decade, let them, let them, let them. Then you say the let me part.

36:08Okay. Let me decide what do I want to do in response to what's happening right now. Layoffs haven't happened yet, but do I want to sit here and cross my fingers and hand all the power to my bosses or let me conserve my time and energy and work on my resume and start going out and interviewing so that I'm actually putting time and energy into creating the next thing versus sitting here gossiping and worrying and freaking out and feeling paralyzed. It's an amazing opportunity for not only accountability, but self-reflection. And so often, you know, we don't know we're in these habits of whether it's gossiping or being in the victim, which again, we've all done.

36:49There's no shade or judgment for me on that one. We've all been in the place of it's not fair. I'm the victim of this. But I think it's an amazing opportunity to look at it. And I like the way earlier you even used the word data because we are collating information all around us constantly. And it's up to us again as to how we use it, whether it's, as you say, you know, how much time we're putting into friendships versus what we're getting back, the same in the workplace. This is all information. And that seems to take the sting out of it a bit. It kind of cuts the emotional cord a little bit, thinking about it as data.

37:24Yeah. I love that. Another huge way that it's changed my life is comparison. Yeah. You talk about envy in the book and that's - Oh my God. A huge one. I mean, especially with the social media arena that we're all, whether we're on it or not, we know it's there. And the propensity to compare yourself is larger than ever. Envy is a huge topic. Yeah. Well, one thing that's really important to understand about envy and jealousy is that it's impossible to be jealous of something that you don't want. Yes. We can all agree on that. Well, yeah. And I'll give you an example. If I see somebody that It has the most beautiful penthouse in, I don't know, Madrid.

38:07Yeah. I don't feel any jealousy at all. I don't want to live there. No. So I can look at that and basically go, that's fantastic for them. Yeah, good for you. Yes, exactly. Exactly. And so, you know, I can look at throuples that are very happy and be like, not jealous at all. Not for me. Not for me. No, no. And the reason why is that jealousy and that emotion, it is tied to something deeply personal in you. And the reason why it comes out as jealousy is because you are blocking your desires with your insecurity and your inaction. It's telling you what you want. Yes. And so for – I didn't understand this.

38:56You know, when I would see you with your podcast or our buddy Stephen Bartlett or Jay Shetty or Dr. Chatterjee or Dr. Joel, like anybody with her, I'd be like, she's already got the happy place. I can't, like, I can't, she's already, what am I going to say that like, and the jealousy comes up and then you compare yourself. I'm lolling that you've ever been jealous of me. This is too much. I need to make note of this. Oh, I'm serious. I'm serious. And so what's underneath jealousy is your dreams and goals and the things that you deeply desire for yourself bumping up against your own insecurity and inaction.

39:38And what will happen to you is that you will self-combust until you either just give up on your dreams or you get so sick of yourself that you just start working on it. There's an easier way. See, I used to believe before the let them theory that there was a limited amount of success, a limited amount of podcast. For you or for, you're talking generally, just out there in the sphere. Limited amount of money, limited amount of success, limited amount of kitchen renovations. Like if your friend renovated her kitchen, now I can't. If she did the white cabinets, God knows I can't do white cabinets.

40:15Like it's just all friendships. Oh, there's only a certain number of friends to go around. the let them theory taught me that other people can never block your way you do that yeah other people lead the way and so when you say let them like the next time you're scrolling on social media or you see that your friend is is easily getting pregnant and you're struggling with your partner when you say let them you're not tamping down kind of the fears and the nerves and the insecurity that you have, you're recognizing that the fact that somebody else is achieving this thing is evidence that it's possible and it's possible for you too.

40:59And any of the energy that you throw into being envious or jealous or using somebody else's example, whether it's they're starting a YouTube channel or they've written a book or they've found love after divorce, so many of us make the mistake of going, it'll never be me. Things like that happen to Fern, but they don't happen for somebody like me. Things like that happen to other people, but they don't happen for somebody like me. And one of the coolest things to recognize about life is that when you let other people lead the way, when you let other people show you what's possible, you free yourself from this trap that you've put yourself in, where you've told yourself, well, if they have it, I can't.

41:41If they've done it, they beat me to it. I'm too late. You literally remove all that and then you come to the let me. Well, let me learn from your example. Let me study the formula that you used. Let me remind myself through my actions and my attitude over time, might not happen in the amount of time I want it to, but over time I can achieve something similar. Yeah. I mean, I'm driven hugely by seeing what my peers are doing and luckily and I'm sure you found this the podcast world is bloody lovely everyone's so nice yeah I'm friends with Dr Chatterjee I'm friends with Elizabeth Day yeah I'm friends with Jake Humphrey like we're all such great pals and actually when I see like oh you know there'll be a bit where I go how did Elizabeth get that guest and then I'm like I need to do better I need to reach out to more people I need to think about my interviews in a bit more of a sort of technical fashion or I'll just be listening I'm obsessively listening to other people's interviews.

42:39And there might be a little bit of an undertone of envy, but it drives me hugely. I'm ambitious. I want to do better. That's what's underneath envy and jealousy, your own ambition. And having that flip in your mind that, wait a minute, this isn't me being petty. This is my ambition trying to get my attention. And you're still going to have fear. It's still going to take a lot of work. Yeah. But using let them and let me, it's helped me identify when I've made other people a problem and they don't need to be. Yeah. I mean, that's actually a really important point you've just made there is that with let them, it doesn't magic away the issue.

43:20It doesn't magic away the tricky person or the slight feeling of discomfort around envy. The problem's still there. You just see it differently. Correct. Because you see what you can control. And the one thing in life you will never be able to control is what another human being does, says, feels, or believes.

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45:18What do you do with the discomfort? Because I mean, I've had to learn this fucking massively over the years with this job that I do and I've done for the entirety of my adult life and a lot of my teen years is when other people don't like you and often it can be you know for someone in the public eye obviously it's very clear for everybody else to read and imbibe it might be slightly different in your own life it might even be more painful when you know it's people that actually know you who dislike you what do you do because like we've said the problem doesn't go they will still gossip about you spread shit about you whatever you can let them and you can still feel empowered that you know your side of the street's clean, you believe in yourself, yet it will be uncomfortable.

46:01How do you get through that discomfort? We're not trying to get rid of it because I think it is important that, you know, life is ups and downs, isn't it? It's light and shade. There's good bits, there's shit bits and everything in between. How do you personally deal with feeling deeply uncomfortable? It's an excellent question. And, you know, So you've talked about being in the public eye, but everybody has had the experience where you walk into a job and you know people don't like you there or your supervisor doesn't like you there or you have friends where you know they're gossiping or you feel insecure around them.

46:34And so when you say let them, let them misunderstand me, let them spread rumors around me. Again, you're not allowing it. You're recognizing that this is not something I can control and that's important. Then you come to the discomfort. let me decide what I'm going to do with this. And too often what I used to do in the past is I would go on these sort of silent campaigns to win over people that don't like, why would you do that? Yeah. Why do you do that? Because now you've just given them power. Yeah. The, the, the easier way to go through life is to let them have their opinions, let them say what they're going to say, and then let me every day remind myself what my job is.

47:20My job is to wake up, put one foot in front of the other and live my life in a way where I'm proud of myself because I know my intentions, I know my values and I know that I'm doing the best that I can to align the decisions that I make and the actions that I take against those things that make me proud of who I am. And it is a daily thing that you're going to have to work on. Like when somebody is attacking me, I just triple down on knowing who I am as a person. If it's really bad, I'll reach out to people that know me well, and I'll explain what's going on and I'll get the reassurance. So that's a, let me get the support that I need.

48:03Because if you're in a situation where you're going through a horrible breakup and friends are siding with different people and you can't believe that people are still friends with your ex and you can't believe the garbage that they're spreading about you. And why are the, let them, let them, let them, let them. Because one of the things that is so true about life is that you want to win this battle in the moment. But over time, if you stay true to yourself and just let me live in a way where I'm proud of myself, where I tell the truth, where I live according to my values, over time, it all comes out in the wash.

48:40It does. It always does. Over time, your behavior just outlives all the swirling nonsense that happens in the moment. And so your example over time is what has the power to change the way people see you. But first you have to change how you see yourself and you have to stop giving power to people who don't want to like you in the first place and take that power back because you need it in order to keep navigating day to day through a storm like that. I think it must be imperative in this context to like yourself. I think that's something that you learn how to do every day. Yeah, because I think when you don't like yourself.

49:28Well, I didn't like myself for most of my life. Well, yeah, I agree. I didn't like, I loved you. I didn't like myself. For probably like a lot of my 20s, undulating 30s, turning 40 a few years ago was sort of like a landmark, really. And that's been a great change. But I think when you don't like yourself, it's of course so much easier to just give all the power to everyone else because you don't respect yourself. Well, and here's the thing. How can you like yourself if the default is to give more weight to what other people think about you than the weight that you give to what you think about you?

50:06I don't think anybody knows how to like themselves because I think we've all been trained to default to making sure everyone else is happy, making sure we fit in, making sure everybody's expectations are met. Nobody's disappointed. And so if all of the power is going out there to determine whether or not you're good with you, how are you going to like yourself? Because you don't hold the keys to that. What's helped you like yourself? What's got you to a good place of self-compassion, would you say? This has been revelatory. Really? Well, yeah, because in seeing how much time and energy you put in to try and change everybody else, this is why you're exhausted.

50:49Like if all day long the world is stressing you out and other people stressing you out and you believe that getting through the day is about making sure people are happy and you're doing a good job according to everybody else, no wonder you have no time for yourself. No wonder you're absolutely exhausted at the end of the day. When you flip it and you let other people be who they are and who they're not. You give them grace, give them the space and the dignity of their own experience. Doesn't mean you're a narcissistic, selfish jerk. You still show up and support people. You're just not dying on the sword over it.

51:24You now have conserved the time and energy that you need to do some of the things that really make you feel good about yourself, whether that's getting up and moving your body or not drinking as much as you used to drink because you were so stressed out about work. I don't know. It's just I feel like I didn't realize how much of my life was organized around trying to change other people, trying to control what they think and feel, trying to make everybody happy. And the result is I wasn't happy and I was stressed out and I was tired. And do you think it also noticing other people's behavior and giving them the space to be them and do them.

52:07Does it subsequently allow you to give yourself a bit of a break? Because I think the other thing we're all trying to do is be perfect humans. I never go wrong. I never have mishaps. I never make mistakes. I do everything perfectly. We're all driving ourselves mad trying to be perfect humans. But actually when we go, okay, let that person be a bit of an asshole or let them have a tantrum. Actually, in turn, we might just forgive ourselves a bit more easily when we fuck up. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. And the other thing that happened is, you know, I don't know about you, but I've always wanted to be closer to people in my life.

52:40You know, I talk about this with my daughter Sawyer and my daughter Kendall, but Sawyer wrote the Let Them Theory book with me. We just kind of had this relationship where we loved each other, but there was just this sort of, I don't know, like why was there tension? Why is it that when I was trying to be close. She's super annoyed. Like, you know, just like this mismatch thing. And the beauty of the let them theory, because when you start saying let them, you're going to think that this is sort of about not caring. It's actually the opposite. When you say let them be who they are and let them be who they're not, especially with adult children, especially with your spouse, especially with your parents and your closest friends, it forces you to create space to let the other person be who they are and who they're not.

53:35And that means you operate with a level of acceptance. Yes. And what I also noticed when I started saying let them, because, you know, let's be honest, I think the reason why we all have families is because it teaches you how to love people you hate sometimes. and when teenagers come downstairs and they're crappy mood yeah let them you don't have to fix it yeah give them the space yeah to feel what they're feeling i mean parenting it's an absolute minefield you know like the teenage stuff so complicated but i loved your points on even with little children the let them theory again is nuanced because you're not going oh just let not the bloody ice cream that they're begging for.

54:23No, it's saying I'm sticking to know, let them freak out and have a big, you know, turmoil and all these big emotions. Let them experience that. Yeah. And then let me comfort them through it. There's actually a really amazing parenting guide that you can download for free that was written by Dr. Stuart Ablon at Mass General Brigham, the number one research hospital in the world. He's a professor at Harvard Medical school doing psychology and psychiatry for kids and young adults and has been running a program called Think Kids for 30 years. So he wrote the parenting guide that you can download in the back of the book.

55:02But he basically said the way that he thinks about the let them theory is he wants you to let them lead the way. Your kids are smarter than you know. Your kids are smarter than you think. If they're struggling in school, they know they are. They don't need you riding their ass on it. They're already feeling a lot of shame. And so he advises that as a parent, it's not that you're going to let them just flounder. You're going to let them lead the way in terms of how they want to address it. And the let me part is, let me approach this as a parent by asking you, Have you thought about what you wanted to do about the situation with this kid at school?

55:47Have you thought about like what you want to do about your grades? Have you thought about the fact that you got cut from the team and what you might want to do? And can I offer any support? Have you thought about how I might be able to support you? This is all they think about. Yeah. And so when you are with them as a parent, and he has this visual where with kids in particular, You're going to, instead of bulldozing the way and telling them what to do, you're going to let them have the dignity of their own experience. But the let me part is with my arm around your shoulder, but I'm going to let you lead the way by asking you things like, have you thought about how you might want to drink?

56:29Do you, have you thought about whether or not you want to go to university? It's a lovely way of doing it. Very much so, because then your kids feel empowered. Yeah. I've heard. And obviously if it's a dangerous situation, you're going to step in and be a parent. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But in these nuanced things, the friend drama, the lack of motivation at school, not eating healthy, these are all things where you can take a cue from your kids and you can also give them a cue that you're not here to bulldoze them. You're here with them and you're going to let them feel empowered to lead the way in terms of the next step.

57:08What do you think the cost of not applying this theory is on our lives? Happiness, stress, anxiety, lost dreams, everything. Because your entire experience of life is a function of how you spend your time and what you pour your energy into. and for your entire life before the let them theory, you have given all of that power to other people's opinions, moods, happiness, expectations. You have made it your job to change people. You have made it your job to make people happy. You have made it your job to make sure everybody else is okay. And in the process, you have stressed yourself out. You have driven yourself into the ground.

57:51You have forgotten what makes you happy. and you are feeling insecure and anxious because you've given all this power to something you can't control. I mean, any psychologist will tell you, if you focus on shit you can't control, you're the one who's stressed out. And so the cost is the life that you actually could be living. And these two words, let them, and then the two words, let me, just show you those moments where, oh, I'm focused on something I can't control again. Let me take my power back and let me decide what I'm going to do in response to this. Yeah. I mean, it's a huge payoff if we're not really thinking about this stuff quite seriously and just giving it a go because this will be alien to so many people.

58:34I'm one of them in areas of my life. You know, I have found that very challenging, but it doesn't mean it's impossible. It's just trial and error, giving it a go. You might feel uncomfortable if you say no to somebody or you set a boundary, but it's not impossible. Well, and what's amazing is the simplest way that people start using it is just any time you feel slightly stressed or frustrated, that's it. Yeah. Or annoyed. Yeah. Just say let them. And the shocking thing is after just hearing our conversation today, you don't need to buy the book. You don't. You don't. You don't. You've got the theory now.

59:09Yeah. And here's what's going to startle you. You will say let them 23 times today. Yeah. Because other people are really fucking annoying. and frustrating and because you can't control them. Yeah. And the more you say let them, the first week, all you're going to do is say let them. You're not going to say let me part. You're just going to say let them because you're starting to teach yourself how to recognize how often the world seeps in to you, how often you cross a line and try to change other people or get frustrated by other people. And so just for a week, just do the let them part. and you'll start to notice something you've never seen.

59:53Yeah. Which is how much power you've given to the world and other people. It's exciting. It's like game changing shit. I think even if you're the sort of person that is so, you know, I had a period certainly where I didn't want to go out. I didn't want to socialize because I was so overly focused, hyper focused on what other people would think of me. So it felt easy to stay at home where I'm just with my cats. They're not going to fucking judge me. Like, great. I'd just be with them the whole time. Whereas actually this opens things up. This makes your life bigger because you can go into a situation, a social circle, and you can still feel slightly uncomfortable or like you might be judged, but you will be judged.

1:00:28Here's the thing. You will be. You will be. And let them. Yeah. Like, and so the thing is, is like people will gossip about it. People are going to misunderstand you. Let them. Yeah. Let them, let them, let them. Because again, you're recognizing you can't control what anyone thinks. I mean, you know, you can put on the best outfit you've ever seen and walk downstairs and your family be like, you look great. And then you walk out and your family turns to each other. She looks like shit. I can't believe she's going outside like that. You can't control what other people are going to say. Just let them.

1:01:00And then focus on operating in a way where you like yourself, where you know your intentions. And over time, just something miraculous happens. You just start to actually feel like yourself. Yeah. Oh, what a gift. That's the biggest gift. It's the biggest gift. And you also said it. It frees. It makes your world bigger because your world becomes very small when you give so much power to other people. I mean, just think about how sad it is that the power that you gave to other people's opinions kept you from fully enjoying and experiencing your life. Yeah. I can give you another example. My daughter, who I wrote this book with, Sawyer, had ever since she was a little girl, had dreamed of going backpacking solo through Asia.

1:01:52All through university she worked. She saved money for seven years. She had the money and decided I'm not going to go because I should really get a job after college, right? So then she works at this big cybersecurity firm for three years, full time. She's got the money. She's stalking people online that are somehow traveling and paying for it. She has the itinerary. She's been playing at these things for decades. You know, people our age are like, go. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do it now. Before you have kids. The reason she was holding herself back from pursuing something she knew she wanted to do and had the money to do was because a future employer might see a blip in the resume and not hire her.

1:02:39Do you know how sad it is to know what you want in life and hand that much power to a person you have not met at some point in the future who may or may not ever even think those things? Yeah. And we all do it. Of course. And so when you said learning to say let them and recognizing when you give power to other people's opinions or moods or whatever, you are shrinking your life and the possibilities. Yeah. And when you constantly say, let other people think what they want, do what they want, and let me live the life I want, your life is going to get better and bigger. Yeah. Isn't that a joy? It's incredible.

1:03:17The joy of joys. Hey, Mel, I would love to know where your happy place is. My happy place is right outside my kitchen. I live in southern Vermont, and we live on this mountain. I've not been to Vermont. I'd love to go. It is, it's, I live in what's called the Green Mountains probably because like - I mean, I've seen it on your Instagram. It's heaven. Here in London, like we get as much rain as you guys. I feel like it comes, it hits Vermont and then we send it right across the pond to you guys because it's been raining the entire month. But it is, I literally live on this mountain in a town of a couple thousand people and And I will take a cup of coffee and step out on this covered porch off my kitchen.

1:04:04And I have this straight shot down the valley where you can see about 140 miles. Wow. And that is 1000 % my happy place. Like, I feel like I'm just in heaven. Yeah, I get that. I just dream of a porch. Like, it's such an American dream thing. I just want a porch more than anything. Well, everywhere in London, people have porches that's on the front of the house. Well, it's just like a teeny few steps. It's okay. You can put a chair there. Americans have like round the whole fucking house, like a whole thing with sort of rocking chairs. Uh-huh. Oh, that's the dream. Yes. It's pretty nice. Well, look, I cannot thank you enough.

1:04:40I have enjoyed every second of spending time with you. And I have already said let them about a million times since reading this book. So again, thank you for motivating all of us in the right direction. Mel, you are a dream. Thank you. You're amazing. Thank you. Oh, bloody hell. I feel like I've had the most intense yet amazing free therapy session. Mel, I just love you. Everything that Mel said is still percolating. I'm just going to let it sit there, marinating, doing its thing so I can apply Let Them to as many moments in my day and life as humanly possible. Mel's book, The Let Them Theory, is out now.

1:05:23I would love to hear about how and when you have used Let Them. Head to Instagram at happyplacenofficial during the week and let us know. I'll be back here next week as always, but in the meantime, a huge thank you again to Mel, to the producer, Anushka Tate at Happy Place Studios, and to you. And remember, Let Them.

1:06:08Hi, this is Knox from the Popcast with Knox and Jamie. And maybe like us at the Popcast, you also know people who have been smokers or vapers. And Zen is the one product it seems like everyone is talking about. Because there are many good reasons to make a change to Zen nicotine pouches. Reasons like Zen nicotine pouches are still America's number one choice for smoke-free, hands-free nicotine satisfaction. And you can choose between 10 varieties, each variety available in either 3 or 6 milligrams. Check out zen.com slash find to find Zen at a store near you. Warning, this product contains nicotine.

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