From panic attacks to psychopaths: Fearne takes you BTS at Happy Place

0:01Hello there and a massive welcome to Happy Place with me Fern Cotton. Today a little bit of end of year a reflection on some of the absolutely brilliant guests we've heard from this year. Oh my god, we've had some good ones, as well as some behind the scenes goss. You always thought when I was younger, would I get a FOMO? You only see people out. Now, I don't go anywhere. And that is through choice. And I just started experiencing like panic attacks out of nowhere. And it was really scary. And I thought I was dying at the time, like I thought I was having a heart attack. I say water, but I pronounce the T.

0:33Obviously, if you're from Bradford, you say water. So I I pronounce my T's for them so they understand what I'm saying. I think girls are raised to feel responsible for a lot of stuff. Emotions, people's feelings, housework. I had a sister, so I knew what complex emotional development looked like and I knew that I didn't have it. I didn't feel bad when I was quote-unquote supposed to. We're in that weird bit between Christmas and New Year, aren't we? Oh God, this is where I'm just eating leftovers constantly and wondering where the hell to put all the kids new stuff they've got for Christmas, planning on some sort of early spring clean and generally just watching a lot of good TV.

1:14I kind of love this bit. I don't never know what day of the week is, but who cares? So given everything's a bit topsy-turvy anyway, I thought we should have a bit of fun. Well, we always hopefully have fun and happy place, but I thought we'd do something a bit different. So not only are we going to hear bits from some of my favourite conversations from this year, but I'm also going to let you in on some of the stuff that goes on behind the scenes when the mics are off because you there's a hell of a lot of stuff first though what have your favorite episodes of 2024 been I'd love to know which ones have really stuck with you that is not a rhetorical question by the way Debbie and Selena both absolutely love Jon Bon Jovi oh how good was Jon Bon Jovi we're so in love with Jon Lauren and Em were all about Rebel Wilson's episode which was epic.

2:00Loads of you, said Leah Williamson, because she's incredible. And Laura and Nessa, you both said Perry. So you're going to love that she is one of the people we're going to hear from again in just a moment. So in a bit, as well as Perry, you're going to hear from Michelle Keegan, Kate Silverton, Paloma Faith, Patrick Gagne and Zayn. We're going to talk about going out for spicy mugs. We're going to talk about sociopaths. We're going to talk about wearing each other's cardigans. it's a hectic mix guys enjoy the market's uncertain revenues tied and hiring on hold that's why results driven companies are using upwork to keep work moving go to upwork.com today and start hiring proven freelance talent fast no bulky overhead no rigid long-term contracts just the right expert right when you need them work smarter and faster with upwork go to upwork.com now and find your freelance expert.

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4:37I can't blimmin' wait for this. Right here's the show.

5:00I want to start with Michelle Keegan because we started the year with her right back in January and there was a particular part of our conversation that completely, unexpectedly, went a bit viral. What about if your schedule gets too much? Obviously, you're travelling a lot and filming days can be incredibly long and relentless. How do you make sure that you stay balanced during those times? I think it's just making time for myself. I think that's what it is. I think, you know, if I've got a full-on schedule, I would come in, always have a bath. That's my thing. That is my heaven. I need a bath when I come in, especially on night shoots.

5:39I'm not the type to get in bed on a night shoot, freezing cold. I need to warm my bones up. Do you know what I mean? So I'll have a bath. That's like TLC for me. and then at weekends I sort of try and see the people that make me happy like my friends my family obviously my husband I'll take my dogs out I've got two dogs who I'm obsessed with who've had since I was 21 so they're like my my babies really um and I just spend obviously in the week I can't see them because I'm working so straight away on a Friday night I'll go to my mum's who's like their grandma and I'll pick them up bring the dogs home and then I'll just have a weekend at home.

6:16I don't really do anything else. I like staying in. Same. I know. Everyone thinks it's boring, but it's really not. It's the least boring thing. It's the least boring thing. I am a really happy little hermit. Me too. I love, like, I love being at home. I never want to go anywhere because I know that being home is preferable. And I will be out thinking, why am I not at home? I know. And people always think that. You always thought when I was younger, would I get a FOMO? You know what I see people out? I don't care. Nor do I. I don't care. I love it. I can't think of anything worse. If I'm on Instagram and I see that everyone's out at like some bash, I just think, thank God I'm not there.

6:54Me too. Thank God I'm not. Don't want to be. Don't want to be. I don't want to be. I really, really can't be asked. I think over the years, sometimes, you know, this is certainly different in phases of my life. I'm now like very happily a hermit. But I think over the years you can think in this weird industry we're in and we're in different portions of it, but it's still, you know, moving in the same circle, strange, strange world that it is, that you have to play the game, that you have to go to the premieres, you have to go to the parties, you have to go to the things. Do you feel any of that pressure?

7:23I used to, massively. Now I don't go anywhere and that is through choice. Like, if I have any time off, that time off for me is quite precious and I like doing what I like to do and I like being at home in my natural surroundings. Do you know what? I did not see that coming. I did not see that coming. I did not think that so many millions of people would not only watch that clip, but deeply resonate with it and also share it, including Drew Barrymore. That was on the Drew Barrymore show. I mean, I can quite literally die happy. I love Drew so much. The fact that she even has heard my voice is making me starstruck and all tingly.

8:07I guess it resonates with people because so many of us feel the utter pressure that we should be constantly living our best lives. Hate that phrase. And we're constantly told, YOLO, you only live once. You've got to go out and do all these things. And actually, sometimes that is not what we need. Sometimes we need to do absolutely fuck all. We need to sit around in our house, in our tracksuits, watching great TV, eating warm food and feeling really cosy and there's nothing wrong with it. And although I have slightly changed since that recording, and that's why I love this podcast, it's a good charter of where I'm at.

8:43I'm actually feeling naturally like I want to go out more and socialise and have fun and be a bit hung over. So I'm in a new little era. I think my kids are getting a bit older. Fun Fern is back. But that's not to say I don't completely value those times of utter hermit-ness too. I love being a little happy hermit. It's bloody brilliant. And I'm so appreciative of everybody that took the audio from that and did beautiful little reels of their own showing their cosy nooks in their homes, their fluffy blankets, their bubble baths. It made me feel so happy. And that is also, that whole episode was a good lesson for me in terms of letting go because I'm a control freak, guys, as you've probably already gathered.

9:24And I often think I've got to be the best I can and it's got to be the most hard hitting interview and we've got to get all these juicy soundbites. and actually it doesn't have to be like that. Sometimes things can catch fire without much effort at all. That was a good lesson for me. That just felt like a really good chat with a mate but people really liked it so I'm going to try a bit less hard maybe. I'll give it a go. Maybe try is not the word. I'm gonna let go. There we go. Right up next let's talk about Perrie Edwards. She came on the show very recently and from all the feedback I've heard from you lovely lot and seeing so many of you resharing clips on Instagram, it feels like she really captured everyone's hearts properly.

10:07I mean, she definitely did mine. So you've got this therapist who is seemingly really working out for you. Brilliant that you've got her with you when you need her because you shouldn't be having to deal with anxiety and suffering unnecessarily. So talk to me about this anxiety. Where's that come from? What was the catalyst for that? it's it's random but it started a good few years ago when me and the girls were in vegas so something happened and i just started experiencing like panic attacks out of nowhere and it was really scary and i thought i was dying at the time like i thought i was having a heart attack and then i went to the hospital and they were like what drugs have you taken and i was like nothing i haven't taken anything i'm a really good girl i'm clean i don't even drink alcohol hardly but something's happening to my heart like I'm gonna die and I was having a panic attack and then I flew home and from that point on they just kept occurring like all the time and I didn't know what was happening I thought I was literally going insane like I even asked my mom if she was going to put me in a mental institute at one point because it was so bad and I couldn't make sense of it all in my head but I think now it's almost like I'm at the stage where instead of trying to avoid the anxiety which I do like as soon as I feel the tingles in my neck and I feel the anxiety creeping in I start panicking and then I spiral whereas instead I'm trying to learn to like be with the feelings and be like okay why do I feel like this it's obviously something internal is trying to tell me it's protecting me from something whatever it is but in this moment like I'm safe and it's fine but it's hard to rationalize that because my adult just goes offline and then it's just my little child self like help me help me what is happening so I think like I said to my therapist I said look I love our sessions but it's really hard for me to take all of the stuff you're teaching me and use it in everyday life so when the panic occurs I'm not thinking oh what what what do I have to do I'm just like help me like I just go off on one so now she's obviously coming with me to work to put it into action more so like great yeah because I just think if I'm not facing it head on I'm avoiding it I avoid it I don't leave the house unless I have to I avoid any situation where I might be in front of my anxiety and I just can't bear it I hate it so much so what might trigger it I mean I'm listening to you speak I totally get this like I've been there and I yeah what I'd like to say I guess to you is I've so been there to the point where I stopped doing tv stopped doing radio I'm still not doing tv I don't feel like that's something I necessarily want to leap back into at this point.

12:45But I've gotten myself to a place maybe over the last seven years where I'm not having panic attacks. I probably had one in the last six months, maybe more. Wow. And I was having them all day, every day. And my anxiety has gone from being sky high to really not present in my everyday life. And how did you get there? therapy yeah and having someone to really validate what I'd been through what I felt because of the things I've been through the self-beliefs that I'd built up and to really go oh no I I understand why you would feel this way and just to have one person say that to me was so powerful I feel so lucky that I have a therapist so lucky because it's just not the case for so many people out there and I have found it personally find the right person life-changing yeah so you know you're in the thick of it now and I've I had people say this to me when I was in the thick of it like this isn't forever because I thought oh my life's this is it yeah this is it I will have to always watch my triggers and see where I'm at kind of walk on eggshells walk on eggshells and stop myself doing so many things and then I still do have things that I won't do and I'd like to get to like sleep's a real big one for me I'm very anxious about sleep still so that's still got to be tweaked but I am so far from where I was right and that is absolutely possible for you with all of the hard work you're putting in place which is so I feel so much better now yeah it's great but I feel like Like my anxiety, like I know it sounds awful, but I feel like my anxiety and my panic had to get worse before it could get better.

14:37Yeah. And I don't know why, because obviously I've had this anxiety for years and I've suffered from panic attacks. And my fear is like the fear of being on my own and having a panic attack and maybe dying and no one being there to help me. So that's why I've like associated me being on my own with that. So there's always people around me. I always have family around me, friends around me, security with me. Like it's a thing. but I think that's because a lot of things have happened in my life as well that's brought me to this if that makes sense so I think yeah having the therapy has helped me massively and I've never put the the physical things that I'm learning with her into practice I've always just sat in a room and spoke about my feelings I've gone back to my childhood and gone over traumas and I'm like how is this helping me get forward that's what I struggled with I've tried so many therapists I've seen so many doctors I've tried literally everything like there's nothing out there I haven't tried but what I do with my therapist now I just feel like it's the one thing that works for me because I'm having to step out my comfort zone and feel the anxiety which is what I've been putting off for years I'm like I don't want to feel it just sign me out I'm off yeah literally get it away from me whereas now I'm like okay I'm I'm feeling it I'm feeling tingly I'm starting to go a bit numb but it's fine and then I'll do like my tapping and I'll tell myself like in this moment I'm safe and like I love a bit of rishi chocolate don't get me wrong it's lovely

16:02and I just think all these things I'm doing with her and like lifestyle changes and changing my diet and changing my outlook on things and like that there's just so much I can't even fit it straight after the mics went off I was like I need to go for a spicy margarita with perry did we even say that on mic maybe, I can't remember. Real life and podcast world conflates for me quite often. I would love to go for a margarita with Peri. I feel like maybe I'm too old and not cool enough, but if she would consider it, and I'll put this plea out there publicly, Peri, I want to go and have a spicy marg with you.

16:37I feel like that conversation was only the beginning of what a great chat could be with Peri, because, you know, we can always be really honest and touch on many subjects openly on the podcast. But of course, there are things for me, even that aren't for the mic that are private, but that really bring you true connection with someone. And I would love that. So without sounding too desperado, I want to have a Margs with Perry. And actually, I think, I mean, I know what I'm like after a couple of margaritas, you do get a bit loosey goosey. And you say the stuff that you're too scared to say normally, I'm not necessarily encouraging we all go and get pissed to share our true inner feelings, but it does sometimes help.

17:19It does sometimes help. And I think we'd have a really juicy chat with some marks in hands. And again, this episode was a real reminder of, it's not a reminder. Look, I'm aware of it. I'm fucking lucky to do this podcast. I am so lucky that I get to sit and chat with a very interesting, very different person every single week and get to know them a little bit better or certainly see them from a different angle. And I did with Peri. You know, I've met Peri over the years several times, but I've always seen her as the shiny pop star. And to talk to her from the point of view of, well, anxiety, quite frankly, because it's a common theme for both of us, that just felt like I was seeing a completely different side of her, which I loved.

18:02And I'm sure there are many, many more sides that I haven't seen yet, and I might never. But it just felt like a real privilege to have that moment and that chat with her. I think many of you that have Instagrammed that clip, those clips, or messaged us on Happy Place, really, that really chimed with you. Because as we all know, anxiety is a massive bloody problem. You know, I've experienced it tenfold over the years. And luckily, I've been feeling pretty anxiety free recently for several reasons, one of them being doing therapy every week and not ditching out of it like I used to all the time.

18:38That's really helped me massively. And also, and I said this actually, when we interviewed Riley Keogh, we chatted about this, getting in touch with some very suppressed anger. That might seem abstract, but getting in touch with some very suppressed anger has really helped just dull my anxiety. And I don't even know how that works. It's some kind of like magical equation, but that was a big one. But I think so many of you out there that are suffering with panic attacks and anxiety you know not only do you want to hear tips and stuff like that and hopefully we can offer you tips in other forms whether it's the festivals that we do or our YouTube channel has lots of other topics like anxiety on it on our what is how to series um but I do think you also feel comforted hearing that other people are going through it too I mean I know I do so I'm glad that one has done well and that you liked it Um, yeah, we bloody love Perry.

19:33Right, a bit of a gear change. Do you remember the episode with Patrick Gagne where she talked about being a sociopath? It blew my mind. What do you believe today is the biggest misunderstanding about the word sociopath or the diagnosis sociopath? That all sociopaths are created equal. You know, to your point, there is a tremendous amount of stigma associated with the word. And to a large extent, that's well earned. There are sociopathic examples whose behavior is violent and extreme and something that you would want to steer clear of. But what most people don't understand is that those extreme examples only make up a small percentage of the entire sociopathic picture.

20:15We're talking about a disorder that affects roughly 5 % of the population. And those extreme examples, I like to use the iceberg analogy where it's only the part sticking out of the water that you're paying attention to when in reality the iceberg extends deep, deep, deep beneath the surface. And I think the same can be said of sociopathy. So first of all, 5 % is a lot of people. Yes. So that's why it's really important. And when you consider that most of the diagnostic interviews for sociopathy and psychopathy take place within the prison system, there's no way that number isn't much higher. But even if we were just talking about 5%, that's roughly the same as those struggling with depressive disorders, bipolar disorders, borderline personality disorders.

21:02And yet when you walk into a bookstore, you will find dozens of books on those disorders and others, how to cope with them, how to treat them, how to help people suffering from them. And yet there's nothing on sociopathy. It's so fascinating. And I'm deeply interested about that bit of the iceberg that is above the water of the 5%. I believe it's 0.01%. 0.01 % of people where they've ended up in prison or they've caused extreme violence, whatever it might be. Do you believe then that there is a sort of gradient, a spectrum of sociopathy? Or are there people who haven't had perhaps the right care or awareness or understanding of their disorder, which has led them to then go down this path?

21:54100 % both. Right. My understanding of the research is that sociopathy is very much a spectrum disorder, but that coupled with a lack of resource, a lack of understanding, a lack of support in treatment interventions. if you are struggling with sociopathy and you don't have access to those things your behavior is likely just going to get worse and you are going to end up being further you know on the further extreme side of the spectrum than if you received help which is really the same thing that can be said of most personality disorders on left unchecked they get worse yeah so this is something you've been on this incredible journey of self-discovery because you felt at the age of seven that something was off.

22:43So talk to me about that. What was the self-awareness like at seven? What were you noticing? Just the other kids. They seemed to have reactions and emotions that I didn't. I had a sister, so I knew what complex emotional development looked like and I knew that I didn't have it. I didn't feel bad when I was quote unquote quote, supposed to. And I understood very early that admitting to that, telling people about that was the quickest way to get into trouble. So I learned how to lie and manipulate and mask at a very, very young age. And I think motivation is the cornerstone of any conversation I want to have about sociopathy, because so many people make the assumption that a sociopath is acting out because they are monsters.

23:34They're evil. They want to do harm. When in reality, for me anyway, it was a coping mechanism. It was born out of necessity. And that coping mechanism just developed into a lifestyle strategy. I started hiding very early. I understood that saying things like, oh, I don't feel remorse and I don't feel badly about X, Y, and Z, that was the fastest way to have all eyes turned to me. And I didn't want that. I just wanted to slip underneath the radar and survive. Now, one thing I will say about the Patrick Gagne episode is before the interview, and this is all down to my own discriminatory mind, I was shitting my pants about interviewing her.

24:15I had all of the stupid taboo-like thoughts in my head, like, what if she hates me? What if she doesn't answer my questions? What if she just feels numb about the whole experience? I was being so pathetic and sort of self-indulgent about the whole thing. And then obviously was so beyond pleasantly surprised at how magical she was all round. That was a good lesson learned, a very good lesson learned. Don't arrive at a podcast studio with preconceived ideas. It's really important for me and the Happy Place team to make sure that we're not just having loads of famous people on. As much as we do want that and need that, not only because it's hopefully interesting for you guys and shows you a different side of people in the public eye.

25:00But also we need to cover experts and people that have lived experience in varying ways. And when would I get the opportunity in everyday life to talk to someone who has the diagnosis of sociopath and to learn about it and to hear what it's like to live with that diagnosis and to actually thrive and to help educate and to help other people. It felt bloody special to have this chat. I think about this chat all the time and actually I've kept up a bit of a friendship with Patrick on Instagram. We DM each other here and there. I just adore her. I think she's bloody brilliant. This subject captured my imagination because I think we've all got a really two dimensional idea of what it means to be a sociopath and that's probably because of Hollywood and TV shows where they show a sociopath doing all sorts of awful things.

25:54And they're, you know, usually a character that's very unforgiving and unfavourable. Whereas, I'm sure you can all agree from listening to Patrick speak, but also for me and the team that got to actually meet her and hang out with her. She was such a brilliantly charismatic, engaged, honest, brilliant human being. And I shouldn't even have to say that because that is, again, sort of emphasising the stereotype we have, but I have to just sort of really hit that home. That's why I liked her book, which is, by the way, a must read. I couldn't get enough of it. This was also a Happy Place book club pick.

26:29We have a Happy Place book club because I'm book crazy. So are the Happy Place team. We have a separate Instagram handle for this one, Happy Place book club, where you can join the conversation, talking about books you love, recommending books to us. We also have a book that we're all reading together every month. We interview the author. It's very, very exciting and bookish. So get yourselves over there, you little bookworms. But to be honest, because that chat was so amazing, it had to be a full blown, normal, happy place episode because Patrick is simply amazing.

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28:59Now I can't talk about the most impactful conversations I've had this year without talking about Kate Silverton. She is an amazing child therapist, and my chat with her has genuinely changed the way that I parent. The word naughty, such an interesting word when you dive into it, because the general consensus, I guess, would be that it's when a kid is not doing what you want them to do. If we're just cutting to the chase here. And we have felt maybe as parents that it's our job to go, no, you will do what I've asked you to do. And actually what you're saying is when a kid is being naughty, quote unquote, quote it's actually it's actually to do with their nervous system so talk to me about this and why a kid might be it could be having a tantrum shouting um being defiant refusing to do what you've asked them to do how does that relate to the nervous system sure so the nervous system all right so every animal has a defense response or a small number of defense responses that we've come to know as fight, flight, freeze, flop, faint, and there is fawn as well.

30:03And every animal has them. So if I am, if we were sitting in here now and suddenly somebody came banging on the door, our nervous system would immediately fire up and go into one of those defence responses. Can we fight? Can we flee? You know, or are we just going to sort of play dead? So our nervous system would get triggered and a whole neurochemical response happens. Now I explain this in the book that, and my brain thinks in a certain way, which is why I use this very visual analogy of these three animals in a tree. So we have a little lizard and that represents our brainstem cerebellum diencephalon, and it's connected to our nervous system.

30:44So the first thing that happens is, even as we're sitting here now, both of our nervous systems are like just tuning into each other in the environment if there was a loud noise your nervous system would immediately go up and I imagine that these messages go up to the little lizard he then goes oh there could be an emergency and then I imagine him running up and this is actually what happens in the brain but he runs up the baobab tree which is represented in my book that's the brain and tugs on the baboon's tail the baboon is the limbic system so this happens in a split second if your nervous system goes I don't like that it runs up the message comes to the lizard the lizard runs up the baboon then hits the amygdala which we all now know about the amygdala the brain's fear and processing emotions processing center and that's when you get this big neurochemical response that makes me and makes our children act in one of those ways fight flight freeze or faint you know you get children sort of just dropping to the floor flop um always in the worst places yes yes always in like the middle of a supermarket yeah and it's probably because it's in the middle of a supermarket so busy so noisy so our so we've got this ability now if something happened now and you and i would immediately process and think right actually maybe that's just the sound man coming in or whatever we quickly would be able to regulate and bring ourselves back but we'd still have a bit of a jolt but our children's brains are not fully developed so the regulatory part of the brain the bit that I call the wise owl that regulates and sort of says to the baboon and lizards it's okay it's just owl coming in from outside it's all right you know they don't have that fully developed just yet so when their nervous system gets triggered and it can get triggered by physical events like going in for world book day and maybe I'm going to get laughed at or a thought you know And if our children's nervous system gets triggered, it can get triggered by physical events.

32:38So a loud bang in the middle of the night or the thought of something threatening going into World Book Day and wearing something that someone then laughs at them. Because our brain hasn't evolved to detect between physical threat and emotional threat. So that's why our thoughts can feel as threatening and why we have anxiety. So any of that baboon or lizard behavior is what we have then labeled naughty because you're not doing. I just need you out the door in your World Book Day outfit because you're delaying my day. Just get out there. And actually their nervous system is going, shit, this is dangerous.

33:12This is scary. And actually our job is to just help them regulate their nervous system so they can learn to do it better as adults. This was the longest episode of the year and it could have gone on for about another five hours afterwards. and it would have still been thrilling and tantalising. There was so much to cover. That's what I love about podcast. If I was to interview Kate on the radio, I would have had probably eight minutes max. What are you getting out of eight minutes? Nothing. Nada. What you need is time stretching on for eternity and perhaps a podcast producer waving her arm around in circles telling you to wind up that you then ignore because the chat is so brilliant.

33:51Sorry, Anushka. I just love this chat. It was so brilliant. Kate's approach is incredible. You probably know Kate from her newsreader days. She's an exceptional broadcaster and she certainly brought that skill set into her new role as a child therapist. So she's incredibly eloquent, unbelievably intelligent, like overwhelmingly intimidatingly so. And she is deeply passionate. She's a mother herself. She's really worked out her own set of values and she works to them and she won't be swayed on them. And she's very, very honest, which I love. You know, and sometimes that's scary as a parent when you're told, oh God, screen time really is not a good thing and how can I reduce it?

34:33And it's confronting. Also, when she talks about ADHD, which I really, really love, that can be confronting at times, but in, I think, a very positive way. And also about how we view, I guess, what traditionally was seen as bad behaviour from children. When kids are playing up, having a tantrum, screaming, shouting. I think we've all been slightly socially conditioned to just be like, stop, stop doing that. Stop shouting, stop screaming. Whereas actually what we need to do is teach our children to feel emotions and to let them flow. I mean, I think many of us, certainly if you're in your 40s like me, are trying to allow ourselves to do that still today.

35:09And it takes great work. So if we can encourage kids from that point of view, it's a really healthy stance. And Kate is there to guide us all the way. And Kate has now become a mate. I mean, she was kind of a mate before, but this really, this solidified it, guys. We are true friends. And I can, you know, in a very boundaried way, ask her for advice about my own children. And she's very boundaried with her advice back. She might sometimes say, do you know what? I don't think I should offer you that advice. Or sometimes I'll say, is this crossing the line? But she is just brilliant as a mate, you know, helping us all fumble through parenting, which is just absolute chaos at the best of times and to be forgiving of ourselves that we're not going to always get it right.

35:49She's definitely helped me on that one. Now, I want to stick with this theme of motherhood for just a moment, but from a very different and probably a bit more impassioned, maybe even angry at times angle, let's remind ourselves just how fucking great Paloma Faith was on the show. We were sort of sold this dream of like the feminist dream. You can have it all. And the reality is you can't have it all. You can have a bit of everything, but you can't have it all. And I notice in my life that like as the same as you, like the sort of CEO of my business, that I'm finding the hardest part being when I'm with my kids, because sometimes I haven't had time to plan a brilliant activity or to make the best meal that I want them to eat.

36:38or like get them into bed on time because I took a work call or whatever and then they're going to be tired for school, you know, like all of that and you're just, and then you're sort of like existing around in a heteronormative sense, I'm not speaking about anything other than that at this point. You're sort of around like a heteronormative guy who thinks that his contribution as either, I mean, I didn't even have that, but like that just contributing to finances is as much as what you're doing. And it isn't because knowing what it's like to contribute to all the finances in my case and also the silent emotional load of what you're doing to be a parent and the non-silent emotional load of what you're doing to be a parent is overwhelming and too demanding.

37:38And I just think that culture's very, society's very complacent and takes its mothers for granted. I think that's what I wanted to kind of put across in the book because when, and the kind of like annoying part about this book, I think, is that I think quite a lot of women will probably read it, but who I'd like to read it would be male fathers because I think that there's this kind of idea that like a Mother's Day breakfast in bed is enough to say a bit of dry toast and clap, clap, clap, we love you. It's not enough. I literally just want to throw it in the bloody bin. I can make my own toast but can you see that I'm doing a repetitive action every day that you could just say I'm going to do that.

38:28And in some cases in marriages, it's been 10, 20, 30, 40 years of people watching their mothers or their wives doing this same thing over and over again. And it's like, why aren't you just doing it? Like, I think it needs to change in two areas. I think that men need to be raised in a different way to actually feel more responsible. I think girls are raised to feel responsible for a lot of stuff. Emotions, people's feelings, housework, contributions, like all of this stuff. Responsibility, like I have two daughters and I hear myself talking to them. And I think if I had sons, I would do this to them as well.

39:18Like you are responsible for others' feelings. You're responsible to notice things. So there's that. And then I also think that employers as well, because there's this idea that sort of comes from patriarchal and capitalist ideologies, that money is paramount. Money is the most important contribution you can make. And actually it's not. It's definitely on an even keel with emotional labour and in terms of the running of a successful household. And I don't think it's enough in heteronormative situations for men to think that just bringing money into the house is enough. And I didn't even have that either.

40:04But I think quite a lot of situations are like that. But as somebody who brings money in, I know that my workload... on an emotional level, is way harder. Paloma, basically, not only in her brilliant book, Milf, but also in this podcast, said a lot of stuff that I think many of us are really scared to say out loud or even scared to admit in the privacy of our own minds, I'd be so bold to say. She talked about the heavy load that women in general carry, even if you're not a mother, that sort of nurturing role that women take on, the lion's share of physical, mental and emotional stuff that goes on in the family home.

40:48And she brings it up with such clarity and honesty. I think all of us side with relief, quite frankly. I love the fact that Paloma's at a place in her life, you know, we're a similar age, I think I'm a bit older than Paloma, we're at a similar age where you start to feel much more courageous speaking your mind and saying what you believe. And I love that Paloma doesn't care you know yes she might piss people off saying what she's saying certainly some of the men out there um but if she believes it why can't she say it that's my problem with sort of I guess today's society that um we have to say things that please everybody it's impossible absolutely impossible and I think there should be space for really healthy debate and honesty from all different angles and there doesn't even have to be agreement or conclusion at the end of it but I think having that safe space, which hopefully happy place is, for people to speak their minds freely is really bloody important.

41:43Many, many women got in touch after this one and brilliant dads out there saying how much they appreciated what Paloma was saying. And there's obviously especially a lot of single mothers who obviously at times can feel incredibly lonely and burdened and exhausted and shouldn't shy away from saying so. And I love the fact that Paloma, like myself, is really ambitious and loves her career and is trying to juggle both and sometimes nails it and sometimes admits that you know we haven't and and that's also okay. Conversations on social media after this chat were loud they were really loud but we love that we love that and it's just the starting point isn't it because we have these conversations and they then sort of flutter over to Instagram and we all chat there.

42:30But then what? What's next? How do we change society? How do we change the systems we're in? These are all ruminations that we will continue rumbling through together, my loves. Right, let's finish with one of the loveliest men on the planet. It's Zane. So when you're up in Bradford, what do you have to do? What are the must-do, must-eat, must-see things? Must-do, probably see my mum, you know, family. eat some of my mum's cooking which is what? she cooks all kinds of good stuff she cooks really good British food but also she can cook Indian, Pakistani food too it'll probably be a mix up between I always ask her to make me s'morses or a real good Sunday dinner so like I said it's a bit of both love that have you still got friends in Bradford that you want to touch base with when you're there?

43:22yeah I do I've got my two best friends that I still keep in touch with pretty much every day we talk. So when I'm back, yeah, I get to hang out with them a bit. It's nice. That's so nice. It's so lovely. I've heard you say before that your mum's opinion is the one opinion that counts. So when things are noisy and there's stuff going on, as long as your mum is knowing the truth and knowing what's going on, you're good. Is she good at just telling you straight, even if she doesn't agree with what you're doing, saying, getting up to? Yeah, I think that's what it is. I know she's always going to be honest with me.

43:56so I rely on her opinion for the honesty factor you know at you know certain points I think the moment that you're referencing there when I said you know I asked my mum like that was when I left the band yeah man there was so much noise around that you know I mean so many different influences so I was just like as long as my mum's cool with me actually just coming home and she's okay with it then nothing else really matters yeah so I do you know ask her opinion on on quite a few things because I'm a bit of a mummy's boy. I love that. And does Bradford always feel safe and calm? Is that like somewhere you need to go to get that equilibrium and that chilled out time?

44:33Yeah, I guess, you know, safe's a funny word. I don't know about safe. You're probably not safe anywhere, quite frankly. Yeah, no, it's grounding for sure. I definitely need to reconnect with that, yeah, because I feel like it puts my feet back on the earth a little bit. And obviously I'm not trying to get rid of this accent, so it's good to keep it refreshed with the locals. It's such a good accent as well. Thank you. It's brilliant. Can American people understand what you're saying? Yeah, I've got used to certain words that they use to explain things. Are you having to say water? I say water, but I pronounce the T.

45:08Obviously, if you're from Brafford, you say water. You know what I mean? You don't even say the T. So I pronounce my T's for them so they understand what I'm saying. Yeah, but they seem to be getting to grips with it. You're muddling through. Yeah, slowly, yeah. I've only been there seven years, you know what I mean? Oh, I really like chatting to Zayn. What did you make of Zayn? And what were you expecting him to be like? Because for me, I was just really, I guess, happily surprised as to how completely normal he was. And that might sound really basic, but sometimes when a pop star is that big and they're that famous and have had that huge of a life, you think, oh, they're going to be deeply impacted and a bit starry or whatever.

45:48It's just lovely, normal, animal loving, cardigan wearing bloke. Talking of cardigans. Yes, I still have his cardigan. So at the end of that episode, I said something along the lines of, I will have that cardigan when you finished with it. And as soon as it left my mouth, I thought, shut up, Fern. Because my mum says that to me all the time. My mum goes, oh, when you finish with that coat, I'll have it. Oh, when you finish with that bag, I'll have it. She says it to me all the time. and I thought, oh my God, I've turned in to Lynn. I mean, that's not a problem, but still, what am I saying that for?

46:22You silly, silly woman. Anyway, he left the studio. We all said, thank you. Me and the team were all like, oh, Zane was so lovely. What an absolute diamond. Then in runs one of his team and she was like clutching something in her hand and she thrust it towards me and said, Zane wants you to have this. And it was the, I'm imagining, extremely extremely expensive grey cashmere cardigan with tiny bejeweled studs all over it. I mean, it was right up my street. Couldn't be more me if it tried. I felt mortified. I was like, no, I was only pissing about. I don't, I don't need the cardigan. Give it back to Zayn.

47:02But also, can I have it? Because he's probably got loads and he'll probably never wear it again anyway. So of course I kept it. Then I started to worry that all the One Direction fans were going to hate me for having it and I started to feel scared about wearing it publicly. Like my fear was disproportionate to the actual event itself. I'm happy to say I'm over that and I'm wearing it quite regularly because I genuinely adore it. And a big shout out to my friend Lavashney who is obsessed with Zayn and I'm going to out her right here. Did ask me at the school gates if she could sniff it. Sorry about that Lavashney.

47:35I hope to see Zayn again. He just did some touring and I actually got invited along but I sadly couldn't go which is a bummer but that is the lovely thing about this podcast is sometimes I do really stay in touch with people that I don't know very well and we really bond over that episode which is so nice I mean it's happened countless times over the years if I think back to well Kate Silverton certainly um Ollie years and years I'm working on that one he's definitely in line to be my new best mate so we can hang out and talk about cats but it does happen and that feels like a real lovely bloody bonus actually I'm also really happy for Zane that he feels so calm and content in his life now.

48:10That is the sort of energy that you can only hope for in 2025. Let's all do that guys. Let's be a bit more Zane about things. So I mentioned that we read Patrick Gagne's memoir Sociopath as part of our Happy Place book club. Are you reading a new book with us each month? I hope so. In January we're going to be reading David Larby's Frequently Happy. This is such a beautiful book. We know that life can be frigging stressful. Each day can seem like a bit of a struggle to get through, especially in a long, grey, probably rainy January, guys. So David's book is here to show you how to find the joy in every day.

48:45He combines poetry with weekly reflections that will help you explore your emotions and seize opportunities to grow. It's a really amazing little concept, this. So come over to at Happy Place Book Club on Instagram to chat about the book with us. We would love that. hey look I'm back next week in 2025 which sounds really futuristic but in the meantime massive thanks to every single person who shared their story with me from the bottom of my heart I never ever take for granted that moment when someone decides to open up on the podcast sometimes I ask questions that I feel I don't know slightly nervous to ask because they're big and I'm so grateful that people feel it is a safe space and they can have a true honest connective conversation I am so grateful.

49:27I'm also so grateful for you for joining us and for listening each week on Happy Place. If you don't listen, we can't do it. So from the bottom of my heart, thank you. I honestly don't take any of this for granted. I had a whole different career before this doing radio and TV and I really grew out of my love for it and I hope it will come back one day. But this podcast has fucking saved me in so many ways and the fact that you listen to it, it blows my mind and I'm just bursting with gratitude, bursting. I also want to say a massive happy new year to all of you. I hope you have a beautiful 2025.

50:05A huge thank you to my beautiful producer Anushka Tate at Happy Play Studios. I wish Anushka a beautiful 2025 too. Let's do it. Let's go into 2025 with Positive Minds, guys. I love you.

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