Gary and Emma Neville: Menopause, anxiety attacks, and opposites attracting

0:00Hello, I'm Fern Cotton and this is Happy Place. Today we're live from the Happy Place Festival in Tatton Park with Emma and Gary Neville. You're playing football. The people who are watching are not interested in whether you've got a problem at home or you've had a relationship breakup or whether you're a member of your family's ill. You've got to go out there and play. So there was this idea of don't bring your crap in here. Obviously, you speak more now than we've ever spoken, which is great, but I think I grew up in an environment where that wasn't the case. I think with Emma, she didn't want my solutions and my sort of compartmentalised attitude.

0:34She wanted actually listening to and she wanted me to ask how she was. And I understand that, I accept that now, but that's not how I'm ordinarily wired. Gary is, of course, a former professional footballer who spent his whole career at Manchester United and since retiring has built multiple businesses, including The Overlap, a podcast that hears from the biggest names in football, politics and business. He's also been encouraging his wife, Emma, to use her own voice. She actually experienced early menopause. So alongside being a counsellor, she's founded This Is Me, a community for women navigating the wild, wild ride that is menopause.

1:14This was such an interesting chat for me because I obviously wanted to bridge both subjects and talk to Emma and Gary about their passions, but also their home life, which actually moves into quite hilarious territory. I mean, I knew that Gary was a good laugh, having watched him on the TV, heard his podcast, obviously seen him on the David Beckham documentary. But I did not realise that he is basically a stand up comedian without knowing. He made us all laugh so much, even when he was trying to tell quite moving stories, which is so awful. But yeah, he was really funny. And Emma was just so wonderful.

1:54Luckily, Emma is a real big fan of Happy Place and loved being at the festival. So I was just so grateful that she was there walking around meeting people and really getting into the vibe. And I loved hearing her thoughts about menopause and early menopause and really getting this chat out there. And also to hear about the brilliant work she's doing one on one with women who desperately need her help. The market's uncertain. Revenue's tied and hiring on hold. That's why results-driven companies are using Upwork to keep work moving. Go to Upwork.com today and start hiring proven freelance talent fast.

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4:20right you're gonna have a giggle during this chat this is the show

4:48Welcome, welcome, welcome. Thank you. I'm on your turf today. This is your neck of the woods. You are. It doesn't feel like it. Come on, Gary. My purpose during this chat is to get Gary into wellness. Okay? That's what we're here to do. And we're also going to marry the subjects of football and menopause like this. Okay? That's what we're going to do. Guys, you've been married now, what, 17 years? Yes. And together, how much longer than that? 20. 20 years. Why do you think you work as a couple? Sometimes, I think probably more often than not, couples are very different to each other, the individuals, and then you therefore balance each other out.

5:35Myself and my husband are certainly true to that. We're very, very different, and we equal each other out in some kind of weird equation. Would you say that's true of you? You want to go? Yeah. In what way? Quiet, loud. No, we're completely yin-yang, yeah. I think it's fair to say I'm the calm and he's the storm. Yeah. Right. Is that fair, guys? I think it is. Yeah. Joostin, the very first time that we ever went out with each other, I don't find a lot of situations or people calming. And if I meet frantic, it doesn't go very well. so I like people who are calm and obviously I came here today actually and felt the same feeling so you've created something here and I walked in that was quite calm and it's noticeable to me when I feel that I'm in that environment and when I first went out with them the very first time she was very peaceful and calm and that was like good for me I think and obviously that wasn't the only thing that she's calm she'll do personality

6:44Gary I really want to find out more about this you've walked in here and you've thought this is lovely this is a nice energy about it obviously you've had this long illustrious career in football punditry now and you run several very successful businesses we here this weekend and throughout the year with Happy Place really like to try and promote rest and self care and all of that good stuff how are you with that? I'm not very good at that at all. And I think people around me, including Emma, will regularly tell me that you need to relax and calm down. And a couple of years ago, two, three years ago, I actually had an incident where I was like a fit, basically.

7:22I had a football match and I had some tests done and they just said you need to calm down a little bit and do different things. And that's where I came up with the, I think I said, you may not have heard it actually, but I said many retirements. We've got it's gone viral, Gary. weekends away but it's really crazy because I live like a sort of like a really I need an itinerary in my life so I know on the 14th of October we just had our break for three weeks last week I was away filming so it was the first week back after summer and I'm already now looking forward to the 14th of October when I know that we're going away for three or four days so for me I always have to think about that next six weeks I know that like I'm away next week four days working the week after for three days in America and I know that I'm going to be manic for a period of time but I now need to put those, you know, moments in.

8:08I know I've got a day with my daughter next Saturday, for instance, so I think about those things more now. But I'm not very good at it at all. Emma's a lot better at it than I am. And I don't know how you get better at it, really. It's tricky because it's often a personality trait. I mean, weirdly, I love all this stuff, but I'm often not good at prioritising it. And I would go totally into, like, work drive mode if I didn't know where that could lead me to. I mean, you've just discussed that. You've reached burnout and it doesn't feel very nice. But it is still hard when your personality is go, go, go.

8:42It's a tricky one. Yeah. I knew there was something wrong. I've never had anxiety in my life. I didn't even know what it was. But I actually stopped a plane coming back from America. So I was flying back from Miami. And I was sat on the front of this plane. And I knew that I'd obviously pushed myself over the previous couple of months. I don't think I've actually told anybody this. and I was literally thinking, I'm actually going to have a heart attack. I felt like I was literally going to die. And I said to the steward, I said, I'm going to have to get off. I think this is quite a serious moment.

9:22I thought I was going to get some sympathy. Gary was wanting tears, empathy. I'd have been better off telling the cop end at Anfield. Yeah, so anyway, I just basically stopped the plane, got off and stayed in America for an extra night and my bag got taken off the plane and I thought, oh, this is not right. You need to calm down a little bit. I think I have done since. Has he?

9:50I mean, I've never met anyone a bit like him. He's unbelievable. What he can achieve in a day is never to be known to man. And, like, he's wired completely different than anyone I've ever met or come across. So I think calm to him is kind of coming home and just being quiet and just, you know, sitting upstairs, putting something on the TV, and we're all just kind of, you know, me and the two girls are just around. And I think he's adjusted to that. You know, that has always been home and family. But I think apart from that, yeah, in his life, I just think, rather you than me. Yeah, it's a lot.

10:26It's full on. Are you good at rest, Emma? What does that mean to you? I am. I mean, I've probably been an eight-hour girl of an eight-hour sleeper I like to get. But then menopause changed a lot of that, which I'm sure will come to. Oh, yes. So I'm more of a late-night girl than an early morning person, yeah. So when we met, kind of going to bed at nine o 'clock was not on my agenda. I love a 9pm finish to the day. I've adapted. But, yeah, I think I am quite a calming person. I'm happy in my own company, definitely, yeah. I think Gary likes people. He has great people around him and stuff, but I think sometimes he's not great at sitting with himself.

11:07Yeah. Well, it's a personality thing, isn't it? It's like some people need the buzz of other humans. I'm probably more like you, Emma. I need that solitude and that time to balance it out because my social battery just drains immediately. Do you say to Gary, slow down? Yeah, I do. and sometimes I do think he kind of I can see the triggers, I can see it happening and it's like, and he'll say I'm just looking forward to such a thing as he's just said then, so I know that in his mind he's like he wants to get through that as much as he'll enjoy every day of that but it's kind of that end goal is always there, so you thrive on that don't you, you are just you love busy.

11:46Yeah, to be honest with you I've always gone to bed early and I've always got up early and I've always sort of wanted to go for it, let's do as much as I possibly can, but I accept that sometimes you ask yourself the question, why am I doing it and what am I doing it for? I think everybody asks themselves that question. Why am I getting up this morning? What am I doing this morning? Why am I doing this in my life? And then you realise that you are wired that way and you want to go for it. I think it comes down to the people that you've been surrounded by. I think my mum and dad had obviously a big influence on me and then the manager at United, the coaches at United and the players, they were all very intense, high expectations, very demanding.

12:24And when you're surrounded by that, I think you become that, I genuinely believe they're learned and taught behaviours. I think all our children sort of basically feed off what we give them in every single way. And so if we, you know, give them that intensity and that sort of, you know, on holiday, for instance, you know, we get our children up and I want them to go to the gym in the morning. I want them to be up and ready. I don't want them to sort of... Here we go again. No, but this idea that they sort of like, they get up at sort of like 11 o 'clock and this idea that they sort of like, no, no.

12:57One of your daughters is here, no? She's like, yeah, I love that when you do that on holiday. It's really relaxing. It's like my favourite. But it's true though, isn't it? I'm sort of like, I'm pushing them to sort of go for it and do their very best. But then on the other hand, I see the side of it a little bit more now, I think as well. I mean, I'm intrigued by this because I've heard you talk about your upbringing before and obviously you're in a family of high achievers. Your brother and sister are both at that extreme level of achievement in the sport world as well. And that's really rare to have three siblings who have all gone on to do exceptionally well.

13:28And I wonder how much is just personality-based and how much is the drive that your parents instill in you and how that lives in you forever, whether you're out of the childhood home or not. You kind of carry that desire to push yourself. Would you say that's where it really started? Definitely. I don't believe anybody's born a great leader, communicator, athlete. I think you really have to practice, and it's repetition, and it's behaviours that you're surrounded by, and the people who are your mentors, and your sort of people you look up to in life. My sister, we were on holiday with her 10 days ago.

14:04So she had her first child three, four years ago now, but then within a year and a half, she moved to Australia to coach, and she's not come back. and she told a partner that she was only going for six months. She's a bit of a wrong one, to be honest. I love it. I told her that actually a couple of weeks ago at the pool. She's worse than me. I went for a walk. It's true, though. Sometimes Emma will sit there listening to the conversation that we'll have. But then in the morning, she'll get the kids up. She'll get them for swim class. She'll go into the gym with them on holiday. She'll make sure.

14:39She's really intense. and I think that I want her to be, and she's amazing like that, she's far more intense than I am, but I think it is those behaviours that you pick up as a kid. My dad, you know, it was like, get up early, get your job done, attack the day, and that's where my sort of mantra of attack the day comes from, and then I was surrounded by all those people at United. Sir Alex Ferguson wouldn't give you an inch. If you fell below the very highest standard, it wasn't accepted. So you're surrounded by people who don't accept less than the very best, but then it's hard to live in that environment sometimes.

15:12That's why I left United in the end because I found it quite difficult to sort of keep going. I was there 20 years and I just needed to escape but that doesn't mean to say that I've been able to escape the intensity of what I feel every day. Yeah, because you're achieving it in other areas now and I think it does live within you. And I wonder, is that a chat you've had to have as parents of two daughters that you want to instill that drive in your kids? Is that a conversation you've had? Oh, maybe it's now. Me and Emma talking to you. No, I think that it just... I mean, for me, I'd just say as long as you're happy, kind of, and, you know, I ask them now what roles they want to be and who you want to be.

15:51I think for you, it's kind of more your... A bit like you want to get involved in the uni and where they're going to be and everything, isn't it? But I think my relationship with them... Yeah, my relationship with them is more like friends, though, I think. I'm not, like, saying to them, you must do this every single day. I think if... I think Molly's over there. It's going red. But Molly had a couple of things at school where the little letters came home. Crikey, Gary. It's true. Right? And I took her into the front room. It's the only time I've ever really sat down with her properly about a year and a half when I had a chat.

16:24And I said, look, you know, basically once, fair enough, that can happen. Twice, it's a pattern. Three, it's what you are. It's what you are. No, it's true. It's what you are. And, you know, you keep on making those mistakes. and all of a sudden it becomes what you are. It's a pattern that develops inside. So, nip it in the bud. I don't think you like that. You work hard, you do very well, you work hard at your sport. She trains four to five times a week at netball, obsessed with netball. I love the idea of them being the very best they can be, but then they do exactly what they want every single day.

16:57We've not seen them for four or five days. They go to their friends' houses and do everything that they want to do in their lives, want them to be independent and think independently. But I think they're also sort of guardrails. I always say that, like the guardrails on the 10-pin bowling, we're there just to put the guardrails up so the ball doesn't fall down the side of the alley. And I think that's what, you know, you've got that sort of area to work in. That's how I think Sir Alex Ferguson was. He gave us freedom. He wanted us to express ourselves. But then the guardrails would come up and say, no, that's not right.

17:23Get back in here. And I think that's what our job is. Yeah, well, it is, isn't it? Being a parent is absolutely crazy. Like, I talk to my husband about it all the time. Sometimes I think this should be illegal. Like, this is insane. being a parent it's so complex and you never know if you're doing the right thing and all you can try and do is guide them in the right direction and add some of your own values in there that you believe are important I mean Emma you whilst Gary was doing all these brilliant things in the sports world you were raising your girls alongside raising a ton of money for charity before you found your counselling career and this this new passion whilst you were doing that obviously motherhood can be so all-consuming and I think most of us get properly lost in it and and lose a sense of who we are at times were there moments where you thought what's my thing I want to find my thing yeah definitely I think you do you know I knew I wanted to be the mum that took them to nursery pick them up and and do all those things but you know Gary was away a lot so it was kind of like I was on there only 16 months between them so sometimes it was you know one had finished one stage and then you're on to the next but I did you know Gary vouch for that say you know sometimes think where am I going I'd done loads of courses in things I think as known as like you're doing another course but what you're doing with it and so then in my 20s I kind of always knew I wanted to do counseling but I think with life experiences and everything that you know the more you get older you learn so much more that I'm so glad I did it in my like mid-30s and I decided I said oh you know I feel like I want to become a counsellor and for me it was huge because it was again that fear of judgment and being in a classroom and I'm a bit like safety in numbers where this is like gosh this is huge but I remember being asked you know how many's on the course and I thought I can do this but again it's you know a lot of inner work and there's parts you don't like about yourself but that is I think one of the biggest steps you can take you know that journey on self you know finding out about yourself it's quite incredible really so I found that I knew that I wanted to do that and I knew that's where I wanted to be and I think being in a room with somebody who opens up to you and tells you something that they may have never told anybody else is like so empowering and it's it's absolute blessing to be able to be in that room with that person so for me yeah it is the biggest honor that you can kind of have when somebody's sharing that once they're on space with you.

19:57Yeah it's amazing how's your confidence going into that because starting something new at any point in life can be scary but I think when you've had so many years as a mum and you know how that routine works and you know your role in it to start something that bit later down the line can be really difficult and I think most mums out there would say you do lose confidence along the way and I certainly had that after having kids going back into radio like what who am I now and how do I do this how did you approach that and help sort of keep your confidence afloat yeah I think it was Gary's always supporting and I think it was just being around grounded people and it was just like it's my time now and I knew that the girls were getting to that little bit older stage where there was you know I think girls are so independent they were going to shower themselves and things and I thought right okay I can do this but there were moments where I did think you know am I being selfish and not putting them first but it just definitely felt it was the right timing for me to do that and I think you do lose your identity as part of growing into the mum role but it's you know the best job in the world it's yeah incredible kind of most weekends I went mat netball whatever but that's not going to last forever so savor those moments now so yeah it goes too quick it does it does go too quick I mean part of you finding this beautiful purpose you've got now came from having to deal with early menopause, which I'm sure you weren't particularly pleased about at the time, but it's given you this amazing sense of understanding of the topic and a drive to help other people go through that.

21:28I'm sure there are many people in the room, much like myself, who think, I feel like I'm on the edges of that conversation. There are symptoms that I could be ignoring. There's certainly stuff going on that I could be slightly in denial about. What was it for you that made you think, oh this is something's changing hormonally here I can feel there's a shift yeah so it was actually in 2019 when I was coming to the end of my course I had to do 100 client hours and then the terrible lockdown I want to say no some people enjoyed it came along and kind of ruined that experience because I went to then online learning and it was then learning new platforms things I'd never done before going on Google teams and all these things I was like sugar this is a lot how am I ever going to get to the end of it and i just felt like my concentration was going and i think the one time i'm kind of leaning to gary and i said i'm never going to get to the end of this course how am i going to do it and he very diplomatically was like well you need to chunk it down do 20 minutes learning and i remember him writing me a graph once and he was like do that and i was like right

22:41and he's like just do 20 minutes you'll get through it walk away from it and come back and it was like great advice i was like okay but for me it was just this memory of you know it was awful and i just i am an emotional person so i was just crying anything and it was probably not nice to be around at times and I'd probably you know go in the morning and we're all running and rushing out the house and be shouting and then I'd come back in and think oh my god I'm so sorry I've just bowled at the girls and there was no need for it it was just out of character it just wasn't me and I say I feel like I'm quite in control and a calm person but it was just something that I'd never thought about it wasn't something and I think it was just denial it was age you know I was coming up to my 40th birthday and I was actually looking forward to being 40.

23:30And I was thinking, yeah, you know, all these friends who were saying 40 is great. And then I didn't want menopause at 40. But, you know, you get on with it. And it's been, yeah, a challenge. And I just think that, you know, that's why I wanted to open up a platform and just share my experience that it can happen at any age. And I think that's what's really important that the amount of people have said to me, you can't be through the menopause at 40 at the time I'm now 44 but I was like I am and yeah so I needed to share this experience as I say from going from a really private person to opening up on a platform I remember Gary said well your biggest reach are these platforms and I'm thinking I don't want to do that but I just thought I've got to go for it and I've got to share my story the crazy thing is so many of us have such a lack of understanding as to what the menopause even is what it feels like if we haven't been through it personally.

24:26And especially for the partners involved, which is a big part of it. You live in a home with somebody and they're going through something so major, physiologically so much changing, mentally so much changing, yet we know nothing. And it's half the population will definitely go through it. Like that is wild to me. So I think the more we can talk about this subject, the better, the more information we have, the more resources we have, the better. Gary what was your response to it because it is a strange thing as a partner and I don't oops side eye and I don't think and I don't that was such a side eye I don't think that we hear from the partner enough in this and I think you know whether I'm talking on this on Happy Place about periods endometriosis menopause whatever it is we need men and women to have this conversation together because everyone is impacted and the more we all know the better so how what was your take on this Gary?

25:25I don't think it's easy for men to talk about either actually to be honest with you just generally because I mean and I've probably made a couple of errors in the early days I would imagine in terms of sort of what I see life in terms of like trying to compartmentalize things so I try and apply logic or something like a it sounds crazy but and I think I remember saying one day, which was a massive mistake, really. I said, this is not going to go down well, I don't think. Right. Come on. You've got me on toast here, haven't you? I think I remember saying, I think, obviously, I knew there were things that were changing, and Emma was being completely different, particularly at night time, actually.

26:12I mean, you were boiling hot and wasn't sleeping, and I was the one that got up in the night and didn't sleep, and for the first time in my life, I'm sat there at three, four o 'clock in the morning, and I'm about to get up at five, and Emma's awake. And, you know, you know when obviously, you know, the person that you're sleeping with is awake. And you're thinking, it started happening more and more. And then she was really hot. And all these things started to happen in the concentration, forgetting things, probably her moods were sort of far more. She's so placid and had been, has been, sorry, for 20 years.

26:40I'm trying to dig myself out of it before I've even given you the answer. and I think I said one day that, and what you just said about 50 % of the population gets it so I obviously learnt that and said that everybody gets this so is it not better to get it out of the way early when you're when you're fitter stronger and sort of more healthy rather than having it in your sort of 50s I get that, you're being pragmatic about it I get it, yeah, yeah, yeah is this not a win, you know what I mean let's look at the silver lining yeah come on so i was i was putting it into sort of like a like a box of let's try and think of this as a positive because you can't stop it it's happening and maybe it'll be over quicker for you and that actually you'll be able to see the positives of having it younger that didn't really go down that well that didn't receive well no so there's a couple of things like that that i tried to sort of deal with that's probably a very sort of i don't know i don't know how you'd call that logic but But to try and compartmentalise a problem, I try and do that and put it in a box and deal with it in that way.

27:44But obviously then I think that for a couple of years it was quite difficult. And I think the big thing is, and maybe I wasn't as supportive as I could have been, should have been. Maybe I don't know any. For me it was new because I didn't know that this was going to happen. I'd not even thought about it, being honest with you. And that's something, again, that is obviously wrong. I think that men should know about it. But then I think what Emma's done in the last couple of years is I'm actually so proud of her of what she's done because to actually go and launch the platform that she has, I think is a massive step for Emma to do from sort of where she would be normally.

28:22And like it was so private and so like not wanting to be part of any sort of like the football side of things or any sort of interviews or anything like that to say, right, I'm going to start speaking publicly about something. It was a very brave thing for Emma to do because she doesn't do that. That's not her, you know what I mean? Yes!

28:44And very much the opposite, actually. Very much the opposite of sort of like, you know, you think about a footballer's wife. Ordinarily, you would know who they are. You'd have heard them speak. No one had probably ever heard Emma speak until a couple of years ago. So, yeah, and so I think that I became more encouraging in the last year or two with this than I certainly was in the early days of that because I didn't know what was going on really. And you become quite frustrated as well because you're thinking, what's wrong? Just, you know, I remember saying to, I used to walk in the house and Emma was always really caring, kind, warm when you walk into the house.

29:24and when you walked into the house, come home from the office, the reception wasn't very good. Do you know what I mean? So let's see. No, but it wasn't. It was like the first thing in the morning. They're really important things because I think we've got, my view in life is we have three hours every day with each other probably, two or three hours at home where we're actually together. It's probably like half six to half nine at night. That's our time together. It's a really special time, that. So we have our meal and it became quite difficult, although I felt those times were quite sort of difficult and they became less enjoyable.

30:00And I guess if you're you sound like somebody who is a solution finder, there's a problem. How do we fix this? And like many things, when it comes to just our bodies, often it just isn't that simple. And I think especially with these complex cycles that women's bodies are in from teenagehood right through to whenever you go through menopause, it does feel wildly out of control. And I think that's the thing I guess I'm fascinated by is we're constantly as humans looking to control the problems. But actually, there's some sort of wild amazingness about the female cycle where we're not in control.

30:37And maybe we just need to lean into that, the unknown and the fact that it's completely uncontrollable. I mean, as we learn from you in your counselling, there are things you can do to help yourself. But a lot of it, the time frame, when it happens how it happens we have to let go and that is a tricky thing to get your head around it is and I like how you put that because I think it is you can lean into it and you've got to you know it's about your awareness of yourself and you knowing that you know you will get through parts of it um and I want it now to feel like it is my most you know I'm here now doing this who'd have thought that you know without menopause it just wouldn't be happening so I want to look at it as something that it's made me so much wiser I've got to know myself so much better I believe in myself so much more and that's what menopause has given me so I'm grateful to parts of it but at that time you do not see that because you're in the thick of it and you know you just don't know who you are at some days as well and I get that you know how can how could you understand it because we just don't feel the same at all and you know don't get those emotional roller coasters of these hormone dips so it's yeah it's really important but we do have to share and we do have to talk and and you know discuss that with everybody it's a knock on effect in everything we do your colleagues everybody around us you know you've got to be talking about it are you in a household that already has that sort of fluid conversation about how you're feeling outside the menopause whether it's the kids or you that's a no i don't no no i don't come on i I don't really speak about how I'm feeling.

32:13Why do you think that is? I mean, obviously, I've spoken today about a little bit. So if things happen, then obviously you're aware. But I think probably more in the last couple of years, I have. But before that, no, I think it's probably down to United, where you're in a dressing room of 25 blokes. And you're playing football and you're going out to play, I don't know, Everton on a Saturday in front of 75 ,000 people. The people who are watching are not interested in whether you've got a problem at home or you've had a relationship breakup or whether you're a member of your family's ill, you've got to go out there and play.

32:45So there was this idea of don't bring your crap in here. Don't bring, you know what I mean? So you walk into a dressing room, no one ever said, oh, I've got a problem at home with my partner or I've got an issue with a member of my family. He didn't bring that stuff into the dressing room just because it's an environment that is quite unforgiving. And I don't think men speak about those, and young men speak about things very well anyway. so I think that that was probably where it came from and I didn't bring you know you come home my mom dad didn't bring the problems home they didn't bring the problems only sort of it came home and obviously you speak more now than we've ever spoken which is great but I think I grew up in an environment where that wasn't the case and it's right I think with Emma she didn't want my solutions and my sort of compartmentalized attitude towards it she wanted actually listening to and she wanted me to ask how she was and she wanted me to you know almost provide understanding and I understand that, I accept that now, but that's not how I'm ordinarily wired.

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35:48Do you think football has changed at all since from when you were in the dressing room? Do you think there is more of an open dialogue for bringing home issues onto the pitch? Because it will affect how you play. It will affect your mentality. will affect how the team perform if one player is feeling like they're not coping mentally? Yeah, I think about five, six, maybe, I don't know, maybe longer than that, seven or eight years ago. I think even societal issues, racism, sexism, we almost brushed it under the carpet in football. If there was an accusation or an incident that happened, we didn't cover it on television, we didn't cover it in broadcast, we'd almost push it to one side and say, let's get on with the game.

36:26Or we might mention it and say, there was an accusation of racism today. and then you'd move on to who scored in the 46th minute straight after it. Whereas now we would put it front and central because it's the most important issue or if there's an issue that's basically happened that's like that. So I think that now on television and I think in football dressing rooms, there are support systems in place. There are psychologists, I think, that are in every single sports team. And I went to see one privately when I played football at United, but you would never admit that to the rest of the lads.

36:55So it has changed quite a bit, I think. I mean I've read about that more recently that you were 24 when you saw a psychiatrist so what what led you because that's a if you were feeling uncomfortable having that chat with people you were working with that that takes some real guts to go I'm going to seek outside professional help here and you need something pretty instable within you to to make you really go down that path to go I need help what was it that led you there so the only person that a football player would go and see in a football club is the doctor because there is a sort of a confidentiality that you go and see your doctor and you'll tell your doctor anything so it's the doctor that I went to see it was because I had a relationship breakup and I've been with someone for seven years and at that time I'd never gone to a football pitch thinking about anything else other than football but I found thoughts about my actual private life my home life coming into my mind if I scared the living daylights out of me it's the first time I'd ever be ever taken a home sort of issue into my work of football and that was like I don't get distracted you know I'm playing for United so it scared me I lost my confidence around that time I didn't play very well I made a couple of mistakes in a big game in Brazil which coincided with that as well so it all sort of came on top for a period and I went probably about seven or eight sessions maybe with a psychiatrist psychologist but gave me the coping mechanisms, simple coping mechanisms that I use to this day.

38:23Like what? Did you think every day would be a good day? That's one of the things that he said to me. And it helps me so much, that one. So if something bad happens in a day, I always think to myself, did you really think every day would be a good day? And even if something really bad happens, let's say something happens to my dad a few years ago, I can compartmentalise it through that. Did I not think at some point in my life there was a chance that my dad was not going to be here? And I can sort of deal with it in that way because it puts it into perspective and then you start to think about the other people who've not been fortunate enough to meet their father or their parents as often as I did and things like that so you start to then put perspective around it and it really helped me cope and it does help me cope if I'm feeling nervous about something I then think about what I'm going to be doing a few hours after that will be quite relaxing really simple thing if I was playing Liverpool on a Sunday which United are tomorrow I'd be heightened for that game I would think about the fact that I'm going home later on and I'm having my Chinese which I always had after a game so whatever happens during this match for 90 minutes and the amount of people are going to be watching it and scrutinizing it and criticizing everybody who makes a mistake I know I'm gonna be in my Chinese in four hours what a simple win I love it

39:39yeah it helps make you think that four hours is gonna be here before you know it's what's the point in panicking now what's the point in so those little things really helped me uh and they don't maybe would they wouldn't maybe help everyone but i like that a lot i'm wondering because i i totally know that feeling i i had it this morning before this like oh my god this all feels very overwhelming and i could certainly soothe myself by saying by monday it will all be over but part of me is like and i remember and this is like a name drop guys this is a bit gross but when bon jovi came on john bon jovi Thanks very much.

40:15He said his one regret was that he wished during his peak in the 80s, he had enjoyed it more. That he had really sunk into all of it, the nerves, the excitement, the trepidation, and just gone, it is what it is, rather than going, it will be over at some point. Do you regret wishing away any matches or time on the pitch? Do you know what? It's interesting. I was walking, we filmed the overlapping touring in Istanbul this week. We're doing a series for Sky. And we walked out onto the pitch in Istanbul. And Jamie Carragher was there, Ian Wright, me and Roy Keane. And we're filming, going out onto the pitch in Istanbul, where Liverpool won the Champions League in 2005.

40:54Any Liverpool fans in? Don't look to this crowd. They don't know. Six. So don't worry, we're going to Barcelona next week, where we won the Champions League. So we're visiting cities where we all have good memories, international cities. And Roy, we walked out onto the pitch and Roy said, do you wish you'd enjoyed the moments more whilst they were here and and we are we both said and scolsey said this to me we never enjoyed it we never enjoyed we only enjoyed it after the game was finished and we'd won you never enjoyed the build-up to the game the preparation the actual event itself or the match because during the match there are things at stake there is consequence there is potentially you can make a mistake that causes you a problem and loses your team the game so you never really enjoy it there's the odd game where we might be three nil up with 10 minutes to go and you think you can relax and it's bad that really i know what you mean by what you said but exactly the same thing happens to football players and you're a unique person i think that can enjoy things there are some players that can do it that are just i call the freaks they're i've been freaks in a good way like a good way a rooney who just thinks he can play anywhere yeah in the world on a football pitch he's the best player and i think probably cristiano Arnaldo's the same.

42:07Usain Bolt, I think, has always had that sense of enjoyment. They're geniuses. They're the very best, usually, I think. Yeah, I think it's such a fine line between, because I like that coping mechanism myself of going, what's the thing that comes after? Where's the sense of relief? But then I don't want to wish away time. I think it is such a fine line, but it's still a good coping mechanism. I think if there's something that's driving your anxiety to the point of, I can't cope, you go with anything that works, and there's no wrong or right. and I really like that coping mechanism. Emma, if someone was to come to you right now and there'll be many people either sat here or listening to this at home thinking, I'm in perimenopause, I'm going through menopause right now.

42:47What are the coping mechanisms you would offer up in a session? Yeah, I would say, have you recorded how you're feeling? What changes, if any, and no change is silly. That's what I always say because there's some silly ones that I thought it can't be that. but the list can be endless. You know, have you got support? You know, is somebody there? Are you sharing this with somebody? It can be a big weight for some people to take on and get professional help. You know, you must go and see somebody who is qualified and just share. And if you go into that appointment and you don't quite get what you want, go back and just, you know, persist.

43:28It's your body and you know it better than anybody else. And I think that's what it is. I think we don't tune in enough to understand what our body gives us the signals, but we quite a lot don't listen a lot of the time. No, we don't. We completely ignore the signs and the instincts. I mean, it's interesting talking to you both in this context because you've been through that with early menopause that you weren't expecting. Gary, you just touched on burnout earlier and having those physical symptoms. but I'm sure all of us again in this room have have ignored signs and symptoms of burnout menopause physical changes and sort of pooed pooed them and gone I'm not going to look at that I haven't got time I haven't got the energy is that something again that you can discuss because you both understand that you both understand that your body I mean you know we're all getting older those symptoms come thicker and faster as we get older and whether we're going through hormonal changes or we can't deal with stress as well.

44:22I think at the moment you're going through a phase whereby you're training, you're doing the reform of the Pilates very regularly. And the same with me in the last sort of like 12 to 18 months. I found it has a massive impact on my life, the regular training four or five times a week and the exercise, the walking. And now I feel without that, that's become, I mean, I was training every day for 20 years, but then stopped. And then now I feel like that is a really important part of feeling good and this morning I got back last night and you know 11 o 'clock but 8 o 'clock this morning I went to the gym and Emma's doing it and I always feel that Emma's in a really good place when I know she's getting up at 6 7 and she's going to the you know to do the reform and she comes back and she's lively and she's bright and I think that sometimes when you don't do that for two three months thing right she's going down a little bit maybe and she's but you've been doing that now for quite you know happy place as I call it.

45:16Yeah, I love it. But yeah, I've even got one at home. But yeah, I adore the reform of Pilates. And for me, it was getting out and making myself get up and do it. And I feel so much better when I have. So it's a bit of a non-negotiable now that, you know, I do know that I need exercise for mainly for my mental clarity. Yeah, I feel so much better when I've done it. And you feel strong. Yeah. Strong, I think, stronger in your head, but also stronger in your legs when you're walking around. And just, I think that's really important, I think. I mean, obviously I should know that really having been an athlete, but you lose sort of sight of how important it can be in people's lives.

45:52And exercise, I think it's critical. As we get older, strength is a big one. And hydration, water, simple things sometimes. I think of our coaches, we used to do hydration tests every single day to make sure we're hydrated. We used to stretch well. We used to, you know, the simple thing, eat well. So those things, and my diet isn't great, I'll be honest with you, but it's getting better because the more I, you know, when I first finished football, I had this almost like release of starting to, I found cheese and wine. With no good here, would it? There's cheese, but maybe no wine. It's a dry weekend.

46:29But you know something, and then obviously in lockdown, you ended up drinking more and we were the same. And I thought, oh no, and you feel like that fuzzy, not fuzzy, like just something's not right with you, don't you? You just feel, and now, so like during the Euros for a month, I would only drink once or twice in the whole of the Euros and train every morning and the difference it makes is unbelievable really and of course it does I know but I think when we're younger we can get away with most things and our bodies tolerate it we can I used to go into radio with terrible hangover in awful states and I would be perfectly fine being able to do the job I could never do that now and I think we do just gain so much more awareness as to how we're feeling physically mentally but also we understand we've got to sadly put more work in the older you get you've got to put more work in to just feel okay so exercise is one what are the other non-negotiables for you to just have that level of balance to feel okay yeah I think like I say you definitely that's for me I think taking your way out of a situation you know if you just struggle in a minute just walk away from it and it'll still be there but just take some time out five minutes make yourself a do something you know just take yourself away from that a minute because sometimes you're never going to get through that if you just just getting a pickle and you're like oh you know it's overwhelm and getting outside has been huge i think with lockdown i just loved walking i lived in the area for so many years i found so many crazy walks and things and just being outside in nature for me is it's great for us yeah it's a big one yeah non-negotiables gary no alcohol exercise regularly I drink water.

48:01I mean, I never don't have water. But one thing, I mean, my children, I literally run up them all the time. People who I go out with, even like on holiday with, I'm literally, I've got water. I'll go and get them water. It actually really panics me, the idea of people being dehydrated. Yeah, I don't like it. Do you know what I mean? I'm the same. I get it. Yeah, it's like, it freaks me out. And also, you know, eating well, I think if you eat well, drink well and train those three things and sleep well and I struggle with sleep I'll be honest with you I struggle with sleep what's going on with your sleep 10 till 4 10 till half 4 and then I train at 6 do you find it difficult to get to sleep are you waking in the night no you can get to sleep I go and then basically it's like five and a half six hours I'm up but the reason I started training at six was because I was training at seven and I felt like it was a really selfish time to train because that was the point where the kids were getting up that seven till eight and then they were setting off to school so I basically started training at six so that I could see the kids from seven to eight which is a change I made so I get up at five I look at the sports news catch up with all my emails everything that sort of almost like equalize what's happened the previous day and find out what's gone on and then I'll go and basically train six till seven and I'll spend an hour with the kids and then I'll then go to the office so it's almost like three hours from five to eight but i feel like i'm winning i feel like i've literally done so much in that three hours to help my day so when i come back at seven emerald go seven till 750 so i'm in the house when so i think that really helps i think a lot but those four things sleep drink eating and exercising if you can do those four i i drink so i'm not sort of saying you shouldn't drink but i think limiting your alcohol because i think that's what i've started we've started to do in the last 12 to 18 months and not that we were big drinkers anyway but the less you drink I think that you've got a great chance of feeling better and good I mean this is a dry festival my thinking was that I don't want any drunk idiots at the festival and I can't bear the thought of having to deal with drunk people and that being like sort of a responsibility I've got to deal with but also it does change the energy of things in all of us we become a slightly different iteration of ourselves and probably not a great one most of the time.

50:21So I think for two days, we can all not drink. There's non-alcoholic cocktails over there, which are really, really lovely. But I think it does have a huge impact on how you feel. Do you think as you've gotten older, you have a better gauge on what your limits are? Because you are still someone, Gary, who is unbelievably driven, who's looking for the next venture, the next way to push themselves. but I think again as we get older I'm certainly learning this constantly I get harshly reminded that I've got a limit and I'll try and push past it and it doesn't work do you have a better idea of what your limits are on alcohol or life just life can't stop talking about it how many wines can I drink yeah straight need vodka cheers No, I think I do understand a lot But it's ridiculous really Because when I think about it as a football player And the sort of existence that I had I knew that we'd drink at the Christmas party Let's say that's December 21st And then we'd have the big Christmas programme Where we wouldn't drink And then we'd have Carabao Cup semi-finals And Champions League So I could not drink for four months And then you knew if we won the league Which was quite regular at that time Love You knew that at the end of the season, you'd have that big drink.

51:39Or if you got a two-week break. So you were really strict and you planned when they were. And I think that now, I've started to do the same again. And think about the fact of when my big night's out were going to be. And the fact that it's the right time to do it. That's when at United, I felt we were sort of ahead of the game. We would drink, I think, at the right time. I think some players continue to drink more regularly for other clubs maybe at times. And we did as well, maybe some of ours. But I think I'm definitely more aware of the fact that I can sprint 100 miles an hour, but then make sure every four or five weeks there is that four or five days break that I can look forward to that I know I'm stepping off it.

52:18And that's what I think we tend to do now. And we've made some decisions in the last 12 to 18 months about going away more regularly. But more often, but, you know, three days, four days, rather than, I mean, like weeks or two weeks. Are you like getting Do you get like antsy after a week Like I've got to do something A week? How long are we talking Emma? A couple of hours Really? No The first four or five days on holiday I feel great And then after that I start sort of looking around Thinking I've got no week left here What are we doing? So I I'll build around the food Whatever we We eat breakfast We know what we're going for lunch We're eating lunch We know what we're doing for dinner And it's just You want a schedule?

53:00Yeah I know what I'm doing for the next five weeks every day. So I know that, for instance, in terms of Emma's going away next week and I know I've got Sophie next Saturday. I know my mum's taking Molly to Loughborough to play netball. I know that on the 26th we're going out for our next date night together is the 26th September. Oh, so you have like a scheduled date night? Yeah. I love this. Do it.

53:27I did invite you. She might have declined. It was a calendar invite. it wasn't for um that's that's my favourite moment of today she'll remember now we're going to scoff oh yeah sorry see it's not in Emma's diary she's not that bothered it actually is in Emma's diary yeah yeah haven't I oh I love it sorry but Emma's Emma's going away on the 16th to the 19th with a friend so I know I've got the kids for those four nights and I'm back in Manchester so I know So I'm programmed to know what I've got. Particularly, I like to know that I've got breaks, but I also like to know when I'm working. And I've got what I call a bad three weeks now where I'm a week through it.

54:14I was away for five days last week, four days next week, and four days the week after. I call that a bad three weeks. It's not because it's unbelievable, really. Speaking football with Roy Keane, Jamie Carrier actually is bad. And Ian Wright cannot be deemed as bad. but I think bad is for me sometimes being away from home and being away from my family I used to love traveling I used to love being away but I'm not liking it as much well it's hard when you've got a family you've always got that pull that you know you want to spend time with the people that mean the most to you and it's a difficult one when you love your job and you're passionate about what you do and it certainly seems from the outside you know both of you are in really beautifully engaged passionate careers where you love what you do so it's a it's a hard balance to get and I think guilt comes into it and a lot of questioning yourself about your decisions but I think I genuinely believe fully that the strength of a family is that every person within that family has got to do what they want to do every single day they've got they've got I believe that my dad my mum my mum played rounders and netball and was out three four nights a week and my dad would play cricket and our kids are out four or five nights a week we don't see them all the time but I want I think everybody should have should be able to do what they want to do within the framework of obviously supporting each other.

55:28I don't think you should hold people back within your own family. So when we had children, we never stopped going out. We just took them to the restaurants with us from literally a week old, 10 days old. And people don't do that very often, but we did. Because I didn't want to stop what we like doing. Do you understand what I mean by that? Yeah, no, it's important. I think it's to get, and also like you mentioned, to support each other so everyone has the space to do what they want to do. And that's why, again, I was so keen to talk to both of you because I love that you're so supportive and encouraging and, you know, really helping Emma to find this voice and this really important platform that you're so passionate about.

56:03I think it's a really beautiful thing. I mean, treat to know what you both deem happiness to be, being different characters, having different outlooks on life, different motivations and ways of pushing your passions and your drive. What does happiness mean to you, Emma? I think if I could put it into one word, it's peace. how do you find it because I struggle with that I'm not gonna say I live by that but just sometimes I just want peace yeah and I think that is within us and everyone around me you want everybody else to feel peaceful and supported and everything like that but yeah I think it's just sometimes having yeah quiet and just just peace is coming to me as the word for it even if you can cultivate peace around you sometimes it's not upstairs it's not the same in your brain you can have a piece but you could be in a yoga class but feel mentally so just pacey and rushy and everything's just chaotic how do you find mental peace well I do a lot of self-talk I think and then have to kind of pull myself together and say you know these are just thoughts are going to pass in a minute get rid of them kind of you know they're not good for you and then I think I need to have a word with myself and take myself away from the you know the environment or whatever it is and try and like you say get you walking or just have that minutes of time to just debunk and I love journaling so I write a lot and get it out my head it's a big one journaling so I've got my trusty notepad with me at all times pen and paper all the way yeah Gary what about you what's happiness mean?

57:45I've never been able to either, well I've never asked myself that question or I've never really, yeah. That would make me happy. But do you know what I mean? It's interesting, I don't think I've ever asked myself the question, I am happy. I think, you know what I mean? I never really thought of it like that. But then sometimes life just sort of takes you along with it rather than actually you deciding what it is you want to do. I genuinely don't know in terms of, because would I say last week I was happy going away for four days? No, but I wanted to do it. I chose to set up the overlap. I chose to sort of develop the podcast and I chose to sort of do this.

58:28So I sometimes think the consequences of my decisions that I've made and I wanted to do things, I'm driven to do things. I sometimes think where is it taking me and what am I doing it for? I generally do think that sometimes. but then I think I love doing it and if people like listening to it and watching it then you think okay I can sort of get my head around that but I do miss I do miss the children you know I mean I miss part of their lives and I remember Charles Ferguson saying that he missed sort of like 20 30 years of his children growing up and his grandchildren and I'm missing my two children going up quite a lot of their lives I think is this worth it but then I've always thought I I always bring it back to, well, when they're older, I hope they understand that they'll go and do what they want to do.

59:14But I don't know, really. Maybe it's a tricky one. Maybe it's a happy place more, to be fair. Come every year. Gary, you're more than welcome to turn up any time you like. But I think it's a big question for all of us, what that balance is, what it looks like. I don't think there is a right or wrong. It's different for everyone, and we can only ever go on our gut. But I'm always so interested in if our drive is actually delivering what we want it to. And sometimes I do think we can be super ambitious. I know that I can be. And I've lost sight of why. Like, what is it? What is it I'm trying to achieve?

59:46I mean, people say to you, but Emma said this to me so much. You're not present. I don't know if anybody else says that. You're not present. I don't know how to be present. I mean, I'm present now because we're in this conversation. That's probably one of the times I would be present. But I'm not present. I'm always thinking about what's happening tomorrow, what's happening on Monday. You know, what time am I traveling Tuesday? what do I need to pack? You're always thinking about something that's going to happen. And the idea of meditation and actually being in the sort of present, I have never felt present.

1:00:17I mean, I've never thought if I had to sit still and breathe and think of nothing, I don't think that would be possible. There's like a whole tent over there where people are just doing that all day. I should have spent an hour in that really, shouldn't I? You need to. We're going to send you to the meditation and mindfulness area, whack you in there, see how you fare. It would be an interesting experiment. How many people can be present where they generally can be present? Do you know what? I think it actually takes practice. I don't know about you guys, but I can fall off the bandwagon of meditating, doing yoga.

1:00:49But I think the more you do it, the easier it becomes to get into a headspace where you allow it and you can sit through the discomfort of, oh God, there's so much racing in my brain. But you have to do it all the time. And it's another discipline to apply. That makes sense though, doesn't it? that you have to do it often. I don't think many people just come to it naturally and go, oh yeah, I'm just really good at being present. It's my thing. I don't think many people have that. It's a really tricky one. Emma, for anyone who's sat in this audience now thinking, I know I haven't really thought about menopause enough.

1:01:20I'm probably experiencing perimenopause. I don't know where to start. Tell us how we can find your platform, the Instagram handle because I think this is a really handy place for people to be able to go and find these brilliant free resources and information and for this healthy chat to continue? Yeah, so obviously I'd say go and speak to your professional healthcare person if you're feeling anything to start with. So it's Emma Neville, this is me, and it's just a beautiful community. I just wanted to open it up to say, you know, tell my story, and it just gives me heartfelt when I just see people connecting and just chatting about what they've been through and supporting each other.

1:01:56It's just, I love it. It's a beautiful thing. So yeah, it is a beautiful thing. And I think just tuning to yourself is my message. As I say, nothing is silly. And tell somebody, speak to people, don't go into suffering silence. And it's always better, you know, sharing it and just be kind to yourself. Really be kind to yourself because, yeah, it can be really debilitating for many of us. But there is, I love the phrase of this too shall pass. And it's one of my favorite ones. So, yeah, I'm going to use that. And I'm just, yeah, grateful that, you know, I can sit here now and feeling much better.

1:02:32and, you know, where it's led me to in the strangest of ways, yeah. It's a brilliant, brilliant gift that you've been through this and something so positive has come out the other side and that it's connecting people and you're building a beautiful community. It's really, really lovely. I love it and I'm so grateful to you both for being at the Happy Place Festival. Please give it up for Emma and Gary Neville, everyone.

1:02:58I loved that. I really loved that. I feel like I know Gary's entire calendar for the next few months. It's ridiculous. I can literally recite it back to you right now. And that day, get that in the diary, Emma. I'm glad he's got loads of nice plans though. That's good. A massive thank you again to Gary and Emma, to the producer Anushka Tate at Happy Play Studios and to you for building such a gorgeous community with us.

1:03:55We'll see you next time.

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