Gemma Cairney: “We need mischief in our lives” Sisterhood and challenging the status quo

0:01Hello, I'm Fern Cotton and this is Happy Place, the show that explores life's changes. Today I'm chatting to the wonderful Gemma Cairney. We should be embracing the language of healing. Aren't we always healing from so much? The world is intense and terrifying, but it's also really, really beautiful. yeah like so beautiful and beautiful is not meant to be perfect no Gemma is a broadcaster writer and DJ and we go way back which meant we had an awful lot to talk about obviously one of the things we have in common is growing up in the presenting culture we felt I think both slightly infantilized during the kids tv bit you're often pressurized to stay young and youthful and relevant and that's something we both had quite a lot to say about.

0:55Also the pressures to talk and look a certain way and the huge impact it has on your self-worth. We definitely have that in common too. We also talk about Gemma's relationship with Caroline Flack and the fact that very little has changed since her death which makes me feel livid and upset and I know for her there's a lot of personal grief that comes with that subject matter too. So we've got a lot to talk about in terms of that. Also, Grace Jones, who is someone that Gemma had dinner with. It's a great story. And she's got a lot to say about how Grace has influenced her and impacted her over the years too.

1:35And also the vulnerability of going back to work postpartum. When we sat down to have this chat, Gemma had literally given birth like a couple of months before. And the juggle, well, it's always very real but it was certainly very real during our chat so we discussed getting back to work straight after having a baby and the complexities of that

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2:38You just pay per session. Grow connects you with thousands of high-quality, licensed therapists across the U.S., offering both virtual and in-person sessions, nights and weekends. You can search by what matters, like insurance, specialty, identity, or availability. And you can book a therapy session in minutes and begin in as little as two days, not the national 48-day average. See if you could pay as little as$0 for therapy in seconds at growtherapy.com slash start now. That's growtherapy.com slash start now. growtherapy.com slash start now. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan.

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4:36Gemma Kearney, I am so happy to see you. I mean, we've been in each other's orbit for years. So long. How has this happened? How have we got so old? I know. I'm 45. I can't believe it. Honestly, I'm like, I still feel like I'm emerging all the time. Same. And then suddenly it's like, no, we are these like wise. Yeah, crones. Literally. Yeah. I mean, I'm going to go with the wise, but it's definitely... Cronin I'm reimagining as something very witchy and wise. And we're moving into that era. And it feels good. I'm pleased. Because over the years, it's been a lot. It has. I mean, we have done all sorts together over the years, from presenting stuff to trudging through the fields of Glastonbury to being stuck in sort of like weird corporate spaces that we feel are very jarring to us.

5:26We've sort of been amongst it, but I don't suppose we've ever sat down like this and chatted. about all of it and more. Wow. Feels big, actually. Yeah, I feel quite emotional because we're around the corner from where we first met. We are, the BBC. Yeah. Actually, I think I might have met you when we were both really young in one of your first jobs because I went for a CBBC programme like a presenter job. I must have been still a child. And it was like you were already the presenter of the show. What was one of the first shows that you did? Well, the first lot were on ITV and then I moved to the BBC when I think I was 19.

6:07Okay. And I did some of the like talking in between TV shows, like the Prez stuff with Jake and Angelica. And I can't think who else was in that cohort. There was like a brand new CBBC wave. I can't think what other shows. I can't remember. The Saturday show. It was a weekend thing. And I remember going with my mom and being like, oh, my goodness, that's burnt cotton. She's so cool. I didn't get the job, but, you know, it's so crazy. I mean, it's such an interesting thing to sort of look back on our other worlds that we inhabited. Like that career feels to me like a million years ago. And I'm sure you feel the same in ways that we're very different people today.

6:51Luckily, there is now the space to have a bit more autonomy, like to do what you want to do, create the sort of programming or content or write brilliant books and we'll get your book in a bit that you want to write. Back then, that wasn't really available. We were kind of told to dress in a certain way, stand on this spot, read these words, be a sort of person that will be palatable to as many as possible. And I mean, where do we begin with that one? That impacts you in a plethora of ways how do you think that that career impacted you I think that was part of culture I think if you were a girl or a woman then then you were supposed to be palatable yeah and then suddenly that became hyperbolic by the jobs that we chose and nobody necessarily warned us because we were really young and I don't know if a the kind of everyday person such as our like caregivers like our parents whatever would have even have known no I mean certainly bosses and managers and that kind of whole kind of pyramid of hierarchy in the entertainment industry like aren't letting you know when you get these jobs that actually emotionally or societally or media wise they could be quite difficult or challenging I think the idea was that this was going to be the dream and that you were really really lucky to get any of those jobs without anything negative at all yeah but at the same time I think that culture was like that for so many of us and I think there was such a gloss a beautiful hypnotic gloss magazines were still around so I definitely grew up buying bliss magazine miz It's like sugar.

8:47Sugar, you get a free lip gloss on the front. Yeah, right. Obsessed. And you see your heroes. And you didn't think about all this stuff that became more and more prevalent, not only like in our own lives, because we were sort of going down those routes. Yeah. But also the impact on everybody. So like we didn't know that airbrushing existed. No, no. Or that there was a trend for a heroin chic body. Like what? So there was this kind of like invisible impact that had already started. And that was society and that was culture. And that was the industry side of entertainment. And then suddenly you're learning on the job.

9:34And I just really wish, because I started properly when I was 23. I definitely had wanted to be a presenter before that. Like I said, like I went for jobs when I was a teenager, but I wish that somebody or a group, an organized collective or something was around to be able to nurture us a little bit as young women in a really quite big, very patriarchal machine. Yeah. And I'd had quite, I say trouble, but I don't really like that word, but I'd had a really, also maybe slightly tumultuous childhood for various reasons. And I think that I thought that getting into my job would create a sense of family.

10:28Because when you put on the TV or you put on the radio, everyone's having a laugh and everybody's being really nice to each other and fun. and you get this sense of camaraderie. And I think that I thought, oh, wow, like everything will be complete. Do you know what? I think out of the thousands of people that I've interviewed over the years, in this capacity or otherwise, there is such a common thread of, and, you know, this is applicable to people that don't just want to end up in a job like this, but like any job that looks shiny and whatever over here, that we go into it and there is a part of us hoping that it will fix those bits of us that we don't like, that we're uncomfortable with, that it can rewrite the past.

11:09I think pretty much everyone I've interviewed has had a level of that, like this is going to complete me. And I thought that until like probably not that long ago, like in my thirties, I was definitely still of that thinking, like if I could just get to this point or this level of presenting or whatever, then I'll feel okay. And it's only been probably the last five years that I've thought that is a load of old shit I'm not going to get any of that from any level of outside validation or seal of approval from a tv company I've got to do that for myself but we were so young of course we're going to seek that and there's just so many levels in the game of it all where there is no duty of care for us to be able to come up with those revelations or breakthroughs no like it kind of is on us to have these conversations to try and unpick and work out like where that went wrong and some of it is infantilization like I think the whole idea was that we were supposed to stay young relevant and in some ways that also means quite naive yeah and because you're malleable then 100 % I agree and I think I've had conversations recently like one of them being with makita which has been like a deeply healing experience for both of us and the thing that i'm realizing more and more is for nearly all of us who were growing up in that sort of culture and i think this bleeds into like everyday society the people listening to our radio shows watching us on tv reading toxic articles about women in the news in the news and newspapers is that all of us were making so many assumptions about each other whether we got on or didn't get on with each other we had these assumptions like well they're nailing it they're doing all right they feel they look like they feel really at home in this space whereas I think most of us were going like panicking internally like am I the only one that feels like I don't belong here am I the only one that feels like I'm being picked on by the press or but all of us were feeling that yeah that's the revelation to me at this point in my life not a single person got away with like yeah I feel invincible and I'm nailing it oh my god no and if they did I would really like to know who they were because they don't exist no one got away with you know even and that's actually applicable to men as well isn't it when I had and Dec sat here I was like do you feel like you're successful like you've made it and they're like it's like but you have you are it You're it.

13:38Yeah. It's so interesting. And I think I even asked Dec something along the lines of, do you think you know who you are today? And he was like, I'm not sure. And I think we make all these assumptions, and certainly back then where it was all hearsay, you know, so-and-so's got this job, so-and-so has been sacked from this, or whatever it might be. And we were making up all of these stories. And it's only now, we're all in our sort of 40s, 50s, that we're going, wait, should we just talk about the reality of what that felt like and how it impacted us? I mean, as you just said, there was this sort of toxic cultural thing going on with certainly body image, like what body shape we had.

14:20And that personally impacted me in a horrible way. But there were so many other toxic traits that we were aware of with how the press talked about us, the pressure from TV bosses, companies for us to be a certain way, to be likable. And we were explicitly told these things. I mean, you in your beautiful book, and I want to talk about the beautiful sort of magic and witchery bit in a moment, but the real life stories you include are the immortal sisterhood. One of them is a horror story of you saying you were brought into a meeting and there was your name in the center of a bit of paper and then descriptive words around you, trying to sort of condense who you were as a person to the public.

15:02That's not normal to go through. Yeah, I didn't know that I was even going to be receiving that particular process either. I've been asked into a meeting with management having just moved to a really big radio station. So I was still really open to critique and producing something that felt right for this new station. and I went to this meeting and didn't know what it was about and there'd been some market research about me and my new show and then to present this there'd been this kind of weird graph created where my name was in the middle as you described and then words that had come up from some kind of market research conversation and all of them were negative and it was just like bigger words for like what came up more and I just remember seeing like annoying like in massive capital letters and then there was loud and stupid and all sorts of like really quite upsetting words and I was uh I was actually really shocked and really flummoxed and I think that the person that delivered that information I don't know whether they've been told to or or what the reasoning behind it was as a process but I thought is this what every presenter's going through and I've not heard anyone go through that.

16:24I haven't heard anyone. And I was just so flummoxed. I didn't have words. I think that the thought was that maybe I would be really angry and actually I was just so shocked. And then I remember saying at the end of this whole experience, I said, well, what can I do to be better, to make the show better? Because actually I see my job as a craft And I think that one of the reasons why we've continued is because we're really highly skilled and we've learned our craft. So I wanted to be better. So I was like, what can I do? And then the person that delivered it said, well, maybe you could like laugh less.

17:09and looking back thinking about the language I understand that whole experience to be um

17:21quite dehumanizing to be completely honest I'd say very dehumanizing and I know our job is that we are sometimes puppets sometimes we are but we are we love people which is why we talk to people we have audiences on a radio show etc um and I love my craft so to hear that actually joy um and like the verbosity of joy which I think I'd like to bring I like to bring from a really true space from me like I have a lot of heart for my work and for communication that was the problem and why people found me so annoying it was really affecting but there wasn't time to process stuff then I was so busy I was working like early mornings I was going to meetings all of the time I was exhausted I was like trying to like look after myself but not doing it very well at all and um I I'd just been told by authority that in order to do my job well and and you know like all these connotations of keeping it we never knew what new show we were going to get or anything.

18:32Like you just get a phone call being like, right, we're changing your whole life. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Your time slot, if you have the job or not. You know, I think all of us did feel particularly disposable, like this could go tomorrow. I still feel like that a lot, even though I've tried to create my own ecosystem where I can't get sacked. I think you still have that feeling of, is this going to stop tomorrow? Like you never, and that, because that was the culture. And, you know, I didn't necessarily have the exact process of having my name and words around it, but I've been told all sorts of things about myself from, and I'm not talking about people, the general public.

19:08I'm talking about bosses that you think, well, I should take this seriously. I should respect it about whether, like, I think someone once did a bar graph of like where my profile was at and it had really dipped. And I was like, does that mean I'm like not valuable? Like, what does that equate to within myself? I'm not a product. I'm not a machine. how does that impact who I am as because this is our personalities being dissected and I've certainly been told I can remember like back on kids tv because this shit sticks in your head that I was um giving too much to the camera and to hold stuff back and I was like oh I was just being me like what is that so you do start to become I think actually slightly paranoid about how you're coming across.

19:54And I wonder if this happened for you, because it certainly has for me until, again, in the last sort of two years, I've really shifted everything in my life and looked at how all of this shit's impacted me. But that started to seep into my everyday interactions. So I would be paranoid leaving, having a coffee with a friend or meeting up with people that I knew very well. Like, was I, did I talk too much? Was I too much? Because it does set in as some sort of mental paranoia I think I think that's really interesting I have never framed it necessarily as paranoia but almost definitely that would have it got into my psyche yeah definitely and um I think I just became like quite escapist of like the reality it's just like then you just I just then I just you can easily start to play a character basically I could be a caricature because then that isn't really me who they're judging, if that makes sense.

20:53Yep, I did it too. Yeah. So I think that that's how... That's your suit of armour. Yeah. Like I look back at some stuff and I'm like, I was a bit of a professional clown. But when you think about it from this perspective of emotionality and growing up before everybody and like feeling insecure, then it's like it's the sad clown. But it's like as long as I'm entertaining everybody and as long as I'm like at everything and like wearing the like most ridiculous outfit at the party and the most fun and being really silly and mischievous at the Brit Awards because I'm so lucky to be here. I'm so lucky to be here.

21:35Yeah, I think it manifested in like someone that wasn't necessarily me but trying to wear this armor like metaphorically. Yeah. by being like quite even more over the top, like in a sort of rebellion. And then I did also like create really close friendships with just a few people in the industry. And one of them being Caroline Flack, who, you know, we no longer like have in this world because of the impact of scrutiny and many other reasons, but that's definitely one of them. And it's just on reflection so deep and way more serious than I think is portrayed. Agreed. As, you know, everyone's been sort of rolled out to be judged.

22:41Yeah. And it's like a bit of banter and a bit of a laugh to troll someone on Twitter or to comment on a picture that you've seen of them in the newspaper. And actually, when I was writing The Immortal Sisterhood, the depth was allowed to be there because the practice of writing kind of helps me process it and just like really trying to work out like what I can do from the perspective of the now, you know, not just be stuck in this space of like, that's so sad. I'm upset by that. That's really not okay. It's like, how do we move forward, even in grief and realization? And it's like, there's a part of the book where there's actually a call to arms for all of us to really become perhaps more gentle or human or of heart when it comes to how we judge each other hugely so hugely I completely agree with you because I think you know although I have talked about um the impact of being in the public eye a fair bit I still sometimes hold back in terms of expressing how severe that's felt because the uh response usually is well you chose to do this job or that's just part of being famous or like whatever I don't famous isn't my job that's just like this weird thing that's come along with a job that I started way before social media way before YouTube way before all of that out of control exposure started to happen to all of us and you're absolutely right to pinpoint what happened to Caroline and I think you know I wasn't as close a friend as you were but obviously I like in a similar way to seeing you I would see her constantly at work events we were orbiting each other constantly we're all still slightly shell-shocked from that happening and to see that's how bad it can be that's how bad it gets and when I look at my like absolute black hole which was sort of beginning in my 30s it was so dreadful and I gaslit myself time and time again so I was like you can't complain you can't man you have the dream job it's the dream job you mustn't moan you mustn't complain and therefore you put up with actually at times outright bullying yeah outright bullying people just saying nasty shit about someone they don't know and and I you know I'm I'm so gutted that Caroline's not here and I'm so sad that you lost such a great friend because of something so dreadful that is culturally the norm that you're just allowed to slag people off that you don't know yeah and I think the normalization of that intensity is the thing that we all need to like unpick to make sure that that doesn't happen again which feels ridiculous to say because actually it has happened again recently in different circles but if you think about professor jason arde yeah it's happened again i don't think anything's changed if i'm honest with you since caroline died it felt at the time like this is gonna have a huge shift in terms of how the press deal with stories or human beings, I don't think much has changed.

26:23Therapy's biggest impact doesn't show up in some dramatic breakthrough. It shows up in the smallest moments. You bite your tongue instead of escalating. You put your phone down instead of firing off that text. You say what you actually mean instead of what would hurt someone else the most. Nobody applauds those moments, but they quietly change your life. That's what growing feels like. And that's exactly what Grow Therapy is here for. Grow is therapy that works, covered by insurance. Sessions average$21 with insurance and some pay as little as$0 depending on their plan. There are no subscriptions, no long-term commitments.

27:00You just pay per session. Grow connects you with thousands of high-quality licensed therapists across the U.S. offering both virtual and in-person sessions nights and weekends. You can search by what matters, like insurance, specialty, identity, or availability. and you can book a therapy session in minutes and begin in as little as two days, not the national 48-day average. See if you could pay as little as$0 for therapy in seconds at growtherapy.com slash start now. That's growtherapy.com slash start now. growtherapy.com slash start now. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan.

27:41Brought to you by the Capital One Saver Card. With Saver, you earn unlimited 3 % cash back on dining, entertainment, and at grocery stores. That's unlimited cash back on ordering takeout from home, or unlimited cash back on tickets to concerts and games. So grab a bite, grab a seat, and earn unlimited 3 % cash back with the Saver Card. Capital One. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com for details. Hello, everybody. I'm Natalie Cassidy, and I have a podcast called Life With Nat. And this week has been very special because I got to interview Andy Burnham, the Prime Minister of the UK.

28:22You know, when I walked up that street for the first time to come into this place, you know, I knew that my dad was, you know, reaching the end of his journey. And it was hard. And I, you know, the coming together of those two things has made a hard, what would have been a hard thing, intensely hard at times. Listen wherever you get your podcasts and let me know what you think. Join our family, Life with Matt. I hope you enjoy.

28:55So the absolute opposite of what we've just talked about, that sort of level of scrutiny, where it takes you mentally, how you start to kind of wear a straight jacket because that's expected of you that you will remain in these confines. the antithesis of that is this book oh thank you for saying it is I picked up this beautiful book you've written the immortal sisterhood and you know even from looking at the cover I was like this is so up my street but reading it it feels like you have been completely allowed by your publishers to just write whatever the hell you wanted there are no rules there's no this is what's selling right now.

29:36This is how, this is what's going to be selling currently. This is the trend. You have put your absolute heart and soul and this sort of feeling of, I got a feeling from this book, which I think is really special of like female wildness and the type of wildness that we're told is unsavory that should be put a cap on. Like this is how a woman should behave, you know, in society. You've just literally blown the lid off it and it feels wild. It feels wild to read. I love that. Yes. It made me so excited reading it because I still think I have, I can have hangovers from the past and be like, Oh, don't say that.

30:16Oh, don't do that. Oh, don't wear that. Or people might think you meant that if you said this and your book was like, fuck that. Fuck that. Like embrace that wildness. And there's this beautiful premise that you've put in place, which is choosing your own sisterhood. And the sisterhood that you've created is made up of women, some who died hundreds of years ago, some who are still alive today, people that we know, but also people that have been actually erased from history, not just forgotten, but certainly powerful women that have massively had an impact on you and inspired you in every way, your working life, your creative life, your emotional life.

30:55I think that's a really beautiful thing that all of us can go and do is write a list of people that we may have never met them, but that means something to us as women. Oh, yeah. Creating the Immortal Sisterhood has been one of the best things I've ever done because I've created this fellowship of imaginary friends. Yeah, it's so great. I have met one of them, and she is the living sister, Grace Jones, and she did change my life in that discourse. Because, again, aren't we lucky in the sense that we get to speak to so many people And we do meet our heroes or at least people that are potentially going to be our heroes.

31:33Yes. And so that's why I thought it was really important to include Grace because she just had this vibe to her that made me feel like it's going to be okay if I want to be myself. So look, because you write about this in the book, but we need to hear about that day. Because it's a huge thing. When you meet someone that you admire and it's not just, oh, I like their music. It's everything about what she stands for, her history, her life story. and then all of a sudden you're sat opposite her at a table how was that oh I loved it and actually you saying about this feeling of wildness and freedom um she offers that in her presence and I think that we're in a time where we over prepare we over brief it's like what's the brief or like what's the data how many numbers you know like it's not actually an exchange and um I wanted Grace James to know because she's also really hard to get hold of and had only said yes to this particular interview um that I respected her and that I wasn't trying to extract anything from her or turn her into a caricature yeah um so at the beginning of the interview I which we did over dinner which was her request could you even eat i'd be so nervous i'd be like honestly honestly though even like with wine she started pouring like out her wine and then goes to fill my glass and i was like i'm working i don't usually and she was like darling have the wine it's like white before what'd she say white to be all right and red before bed i'm putting it on a t-shirt right and i'm like well of course i will have the son say with you my goodness queen um but I said to her at the beginning I said look I just want you to know I want to create a piece of archive that respects you as the feminist icon that you are so you know and that's how we started and she looked at me she didn't say anything she just looked at me and um yeah the ancestors spoke yes and it's like okay cool let's go yeah and um It was just beautiful and she was so generous in her fabulousness, which I think is rare as a quality.

33:56And oh my God, just like took me places with her stories, like telling me like how Andy Warhol used to dance in the club. Just, you know, literally like mimicking his moves. And at one point I just kept being like, tell me more about Studio 54. I need to know more. I need to know more. What did it smell like? And then she started laughing. She's like, darling, you're just like my son's friends. like she's like have your own party and I was like I just had permission from Grace Jones to have my own party and like I took that seriously I was like okay yes like this cultivation of self and she is art she's walking art um unapologetically so uh and you know now she's doing that in her 70s there's this weird thing i think also in like um british culture and it's actually very sad that we that we do this because other cultures absolutely don't do this that we disregard any wisdom that elders might have to pass on and we just go old people i know old people and then you go to other cultures mexico being a big one where the word elders is that you're a revered person who has not only stories to pass down, but also methods that have been used to help people heal or help people postpartum or whatever it might be.

35:17We've sort of lost that. So I think to sit with someone like Grace Jones or to sit with someone that has achieved amazing things or has acquired a bunch of knowledge, listen to them, like sit what a gift that is 100 100 i i loved that interview i loved that experience and i wanted to honor her and revere her and actually when i was making the sisterhood live with other artists we kept trying to encapsulate in words like what is it that we're doing what is this method and when we realized that actually like our ancestors all of our ancestors would have told stories in such ways with their bodies and you invoke spirit and you say thank you.

36:00And it became so ancient and within our humanity, that was way beyond this modern expectation. The thing that I really took from it, from each of these people, and a lot of the women that you write about, I had not heard of. And I was so interested to learn about them, what their craft was, the hurdles that they'd overcome. And it seems like the feeling of the book and the storytelling from these women, to me, it seems to dismantle the shame that women carry. Most of us carry a level of shame and we're not even aware of it. And it's the shame that our body doesn't look a certain way. It's the shame that we are aging when we're not supposed to.

36:48It's the shame that we've done something that wasn't very gracious or ladylike. It's the shame of we fucked up and we're not perfect like we're supposed to be. We're all dealing with that. And the women that you talk about have just not gone there. They're like, I don't deal in shame. I'm going to be myself and people will judge me and people will project onto me what they think I should or shouldn't be doing and that for me was the feeling when I've put turn the last page I was like that there was a liberation like a freeness of I'm not dealing in shame anymore I'm not dealing with it yeah I think especially you know for women of our age we I'm a little bit older than you but we're in our 40s and I think you get to a point where that shame is very noticeable and like as young women you're really shamed when it comes to your body and sex like there are two things where it's like you must behave in a certain way and it creates this tension and this tightness and I think you get into your 40s and you want to free yourself from those shackles and just be like I'm not going to think of my body or my sexuality or anything that comes along with it with shame anywhere near it yeah I love that because then we are in our power yeah and I mean that from like a true space of like magic and not an elon musk no it's like a magic is then we become nature because actually when we're not in shame we are able to do the most profound things yeah and presenting this collection and then thinking about how it exists in our everyday lives like we are alchemizing like this thought that we deserve to be in shame for some things that are way beyond us some of the shame has been either inherited or it's like been put on us by like this expectation which is like way beyond anything that was our birthright which is to actually just live and be ourselves and let's be honest like if we identify as women then we are embracing such mess as much as we are this idea of perfectionism or the divine kind of power of a woman who can be in her sexuality and full of pleasure.

39:12I think, I mean, I'm seven weeks postpartum when we record this for my second, you know, with my second child. This is the first day that I've been away from my little boy. And I was just like, oh my goodness, what if I start lactating? you can lactate you can literally squirt milk at me and I'm gonna be like come on bring it on bring it on if you're gonna lactate this is the place to do it okay thank you Fern thank you I appreciate it but there's something quite magical in in that sort of powerful way you're talking about when you've just had a baby and you have just had a baby yeah where your body feels I mean obviously you're going through all sorts of things and everyone's experience will be entirely different Yeah.

39:57But there is this feeling of like, I'm fucking invincible. Yes. I've just grown a baby. It's amazing. Amazing. And I'm so fucking sick of us talking about like culturally, I'm not talking about us. Yeah. But like culturally, like the discussion around like mums or like being mumsy or like what that means. It's like being a mum is absolutely wild. Yes. It's the wildest thing out there. It's not all pushing buggies and going to monkey music and whatever. And all like the mumsy stuff that we're kind of, again, made to feel shame about. That like, oh, I've lost my identity, blah, blah, blah. It is the wildest time to be embraced.

40:41I don't know if you've heard of the book Matrescence. No. So I'll definitely send that to you. Lucy Jones is a writer that writes really beautifully about finding nature and the change within women when they have children and matrescence is an actual time period of a mother's brain which happens before birth and continues after birth where it's been scientifically proven that our brains actually change so we do change on the inside and on the out and what that means for us in terms of a sense of empowerment is that actually maybe we do become more at one, you know, with each other and with our wildness, you know, that idea of being feral and responding to things in our environment from a place of pride and protection in the same way that like the matriarch protects.

41:36And then I think, you know, industry lens is that that change can be commodified quite easily because actually I would say here I am seven weeks postpartum I'm quite raw I'm like quite vulnerable so if I'm on Instagram doom scrolling which I can find myself doing we'll do it then I might feel a bit guilty that I'm like not with my newborn today that I'm here like talking about my book and working you know or um I'm worried about like I've got two year old as well so I've got two little ones so they're taking up so much of my my body and mind it's really easy to feel like you need to be doing it a certain way when you're advertised that um whereas actually I'm raw I'm real there's been a lot of change I'm pretty excited about that I'm quite tired and lucid that helps with poetry yeah it can be a really creative space but writing and having this project which means so much to me and also is this tangible physical you know thing that's been created from all of these changes and falling in love and thinking about loss and embracing and becoming and always becoming which is what I realized really is that we're always in this flow we are like these tidal beings um is to be celebrated and then if not like have a cry and a sleep exactly like I think that's the point is when you're when you're tidal like you're growing you're emerging things are changing it's not I think we're in such a culture where it's like uh keep ascending and then you reach the top and everything is great and it's like the whole thing is messy and undulating and growth is really painful at times and you've got to let go of things or people or places or whatever it might be but growing is where it's at like that forward momentum and it's not an ascent upwards it's just you're expanding and you're willing to learn and keep growing and that again is the feeling I got from this book it's not this perfect linear here are five steps and you can be the best version of yourself fuck off like what is the best version of yourself it's utter nonsense it's utter shit like I could be you know fucking knackered tomorrow and do a shit job at work and the next day be pretty decent because I've slept well or whatever like all that optimisation shit put it in the fucking bin like whatevs it's terrifying it makes the human experience really rigid yes that's just not what's going on like what's actually going on is like lactating a c-section scar like I can put nice clothes on top of it but the truth is the truth and and it will always be changing and actually it's if you're thinking about healing and moving through and moving on and trying to be excited about a future um we we we should be embracing like the language of healing like aren't we always healing from so much the world is intense and terrifying but it's also really really beautiful yeah like so beautiful and beautiful is not meant to be perfect um and I just I just get so like giddy when I think about that so that's what I try to like do with my own choices it's like why I'm here, why I wrote this book, why I'm so happy to speak to you, like why your response, you know, speaking about that wildness erupting.

45:27I just think it's so exciting. It is so exciting.

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48:01I mean as you just said there the more you heal from whatever you've been through and it's not like the suffering Olympics doesn't matter how bad or whatever whatever you've been through things that have impacted you negatively that you know you need to heal from my experience and I would say what I again saw very much in the storytelling from your perspective is the more you heal the more you can be utterly yourself yeah and authenticity can't be like pinned down to it's this it's just a feeling that you have that you're comfy in your skin that you can show up as yourself on any given day and a way to be inspired is obviously by other people and you ask the direct question to the reader of the book you say um who first told you that you were allowed to subvert the status quo.

48:53And that's really cool because we can probably look back to whether it's, it was someone at school who was just like dressing a bit differently, or it could be a pop star that we loved that really spoke to us, or it could be a friend down the line that you just saw being so themselves that they gave you permission to simply be you without hiding parts of yourself that you don't like without putting on a show for people like all the stuff that we we do so we like rub along with other people well who would you say is there one person for you that that did that um I definitely felt illuminated to something different when I first heard Erykah Badu I was just like wait a minute you can just go to another realm yeah um that That's very cool.

49:48Her whole Earth Mother aesthetic and sound and the way that she uses lyrics, which are kind of poetry and spells, I think. You know, sometimes it just didn't even make sense. Like she would like mash up different words and make like a line in a song and you'd sing along with it because it was so melodic. And then all these years later, I'm just like, oh, my God, that's actually genius. Yeah, it's got a whole new meaning. Yeah. so I just used to love listening to Erykah Badu and feel like at home for some reason that I didn't even really know why so that was probably when I was about 18 I found Erykah Badu when the Mama's Gone album was out and then I've seen her live so many times now and seen all the different collaborations that she does and I think I think she was 50 when she brought out a music video or at least in her 50s where she walks down the street completely naked and she's got cellulite and she's just like she's curvy and amazing and I think the police try and stop her yeah I was watching that as a quite a young woman again who was still in these constraints of thinking about body image and what the perfect body was and then suddenly like my idol was doing this act of like punkery and not giving a shit and you just think yeah so Badoo's definitely up there there's so many well there are people in your what about you what about you well I thought about this when I read the book and I was I was sort of fortunate in a way I didn't know it was actually happening that like say like my mum and my auntie their sisters they've always sort of like subverted the status quo without me realizing that's what they were doing like you know my auntie she's always dressed in her totally unique way so she would go on the school run and she had like a purple car she'd have a cape on love you know like the whole thing and then like she came to the happy place festival just recently and her bag is a clock that actually fucking works oh my god a top hat on and like you know just nuts yeah and my mum's always been like a very colorful dresser she'll you know she'll come for tea and she's wearing pleather leggings and a faux fur something that's bright orange and like just all a bit out there so it wasn't like they were like rebelling against the status quo in any sort of like but it is but visually it was like you don't look like other mums on the school run and that feels I don't know it was my norm back then but I think now I'm like I really love that they've definitely shown me and my cousins that you can just go I'm gonna wear whatever the fuck I want which I think is a big statement to people how you show up, what clothes you're wearing.

52:28Honestly, it is. It's punk. It's cool. And it does leave an effect. We need more of that. Yeah. Me and my friend Kim, we always say how we need mischief in our lives. Yes, we need mischief. Yeah. And I think that as I've got older, I've realized that that mischief can be really joyous as well. Like fun and funny. Yeah. And again, like a woman's mischief is like, or a queer mischief is like nothing else. The best. The best. It's not there to cause anyone harm. No. Or to do anything that's, you know, going to affect anyone negatively. It's mischief for fun, like that magic crackling energy in the air.

53:10Yeah. So Marsha P. Johnson, who's in the sisterhood, was a trans activist in 70s New York. And she is just such a unique and beautiful woman who when you like watch interviews of her which there's not loads of archive of her she you know she was in this space or in this statistic of being one of the most vulnerable people that you could you know in those early 70s years and the stonewall riots yeah in America at that time and there was a lot of violence towards the queer community but if you were black and trans as well it's just like goes into a whole other terrifying space but one thing that I just loved about Marsha and I love so many things about her like her defiance and courage is incredible and her love but she's mischievous she's funny like the way she wears clothes she's like always wears flowers in her hair and she didn't have any money but she would take them from like restaurant tables at the end of a night and like just be so transgressive and inventive in her style and demeanor and there's there's so much to be said about the magic of mischief and and it's kind of natural kind of wildness like we need more mischief and do you know what it's so interesting because reading this has come at a very interesting time in my life because I think when I started doing happy place be nearly nine years ago I was in a very different headspace where I've been reflecting on it recently because the book I wrote happy is 10 years old next year so I've been like reading it back and reflecting on it and some of it I'm like wow I was so uptight because I was so like I had PTSD from shit that had gone down and I was clinging on for dear life oh my god regimented everything must be a certain way, follow the rules, don't break anyone's rules, don't upset anybody, be palatable, placate, be malleable and just like, just stay in these confines because that was safe.

55:15And I think now, like 15 years or so later, now I'm starting to go, I don't want to deal with all of that, like the rigidness, the regimented lifestyle, the rules, the expectations on us as middle-aged women I don't don't want any of that I want to feel as liberated as possible and I think so many women out there listening to this now will have that feeling of like oh my god I am so staying within in these confines to like feel safe which is totally understandable or to please everyone around them or because there's certain expectations on who you are in your family dynamic and most of us want to break free of that we don't want to feel that like tension anymore and and I just urge anyone who's listening to this who feels that way to read your book and to read these stories about women that have just gone I'm not doing the rule book thing here I'm not I'm I'm doing intuitively what feels right to me I mean it sounds so cliche but YOLO like we literally yeah like you only live once yeah I mean unless you believe in past lives that's a whole other podcast but like right here right now like here we are like we survived it you know yeah it's not been easy no and uh it's time for a bit of fun it's time for a bit of color yes time for dancing yes this is it you know all these things yes this conversation is the opposite of the optimization one where you get up at four you do some weird exercise I honestly find it funny it's hilarious and then you have to eat everything before 11 and then you must fast it's like fuck me that sounds boring it's just too hard it's too hard to keep up this book for me has come exactly the right time and has made me like fizz with excitement fizz with excitement about what's possible for all of us women in our individual lives and it's not to do with accolade it's not to do with um achievement it's to do with how we inhabit our space and how we live and you've nailed it with this book thank you so much it means a lot honestly my heart sings at all of that and because it is for everybody it is for us it's like everyone's like well what's the through line like who's the market you know what connects all of these people that you've decided to join together in this constellation and it's about all of us it's about men and women it's about trans people it's about us protecting the world and nature from the climate crisis it's about so much yeah um and when we embrace that with a sense of like who we actually are and how we can look after ourselves and it really helps us look after everything else and others and it is a freedom it's liberation that I seek obviously it's ongoing forever forever like this like there's no five-step plan every day forever and I haven't like necessarily reached like heaven or ascension but I have experienced love and I know that love is so many things now like love is our romantic life and our partners but it's also you know the families that we build, whether that's chosen family or the people that we are related to by blood or that we invent in an imagination, sisterhood, or just having a beat and a moment and forgiving someone.

58:57It's so many. And that includes yourself, like forgiving yourself. It's so many things. Hey, this is going to be a tricky question considering your DJ background. Yeah. But we're making a Happy Place playlist. Yeah. What song would you put on there? Ooh. It's one of those moments where you can't think of any songs. That's why I have. Have you got Icon of Pop on there? I love it. No. Okay, yeah, definitely. You know, I don't care. I love it. Yeah, great tune. I love DJing that because I literally just dance like a jack in the box. Okay, great. It really helps if you just need to shake it out. Yeah.

59:33And where is your happy place? By the sea. And kind of anywhere. It can be somewhere cold. I've been living in Scotland for six years and I love that sea. in its ruggedness as much as I love the sea's edge of Jamaica which is where it all gets really turquoise and tropical but I mean that's another thing that's happened in this process is that I've really found like who I am from a roots perspective because I am half Scottish and half is not really the right metric I'm Scottish and Jamaican in terms of like my mum and dad like where their family are from and I think that that has been really really like special to do and um it does always take me back to the sea yeah yeah Gemma thank you so much for chatting today and for writing a book that's going to have such a far-reaching ripple effect in so many beautiful ways that you'll you'll never know about because it's just going to keep going keep going it's so exciting thank you and thank you for all the work and like let's do this again oh please yeah come and dance in the Immortal Sisterhood Live yes can you play an instrument Fern the triangle alright that sounds good yeah it's more than me it's more than me I'm like kind of like I will keep doing the narration we can't be good at everything babe oh no I mean right and please the next time I see you can you please have a handbag that is also a clock yeah I'm going to show you a picture of my Auntie Karen now.

1:01:10Shout out to your auntie. Auntie Karen, come on. Ah, Gemma, I love you. Thank you so much for your time and your wisdom and your happiness and your energy. Standing next to Gemma is like being really close to the sunshine. It's like the best feeling ever. So warm and glorious. I love you, Gemma. And it's such a shame that it took a podcast for us to meet up. We need just to do that without microphones. We've shared so many brilliant times together over the years, whether it's Glastonbury or presenting random shows to the BBC. So, yes, I need to see that brilliant woman more. And her book. Oh, my God.

1:01:48Gemma's book, The Immortal Sisterhood, 12 Guiding Stars to Grow, Heal and Navigate Life, is available now in paperback. And it is beautiful. That book landed in my lap at exactly the right time. And I still think about passages from it. It's so beautifully written. It's really unusual. You can absolutely tell, like I said in the chat, that Gemma's been given free reign to just write a book that feels right to her. There's no rules to it. And I love it for that. So definitely go treat yourself to that book. It is brilliant. I want to say a massive thank you to Gemma for joining me today. And of course, to you gorgeous listeners, I'd be lost without you.

1:02:28Thank you.

1:02:37Thank you.

1:03:26Hello, everybody. I'm Natalie Cassidy, and I have a podcast called Life with Nat. and this week has been very special because I got to interview Andy Burnham, the Prime Minister of the UK. When I walked up that street for the first time to come into this place, I knew that my dad was reaching the end of his journey and it was hard and the coming together of those two things has made what would have been a hard thing intensely hard at times. Listen wherever you get your podcasts and let me know what you think. join our family life with Matt I hope you enjoy