Gemma Styles: ADHD, rejection, and radical honesty

0:00Hello and welcome to Happy Place with me Fern Cotton. This is the show that helps us understand ourselves better so we can cut ourselves a bit of slack. Today, I'm chatting to Gemma Stiles. When things started to get quite a lot worse for me, or when I found things really difficult and it really, really badly started affecting my mental health, was when I left home and went to uni. There's lots of parts of your life that you're managing yourself that you weren't before. My wheels kind of fell off, to be honest. And so many people and so many women, especially, haven't been diagnosed until it's kind of not too late, but too late.

0:37And the kind of mental health impacts have already happened. And that's that's what the really the terrible bit is. Gemma has over 10 million followers on Instagram. That is mad. She has impossibly huge influence. And I love that she uses her platform in the most compassionate, reassuring way to raise awareness about everything from feminism to sustainability to mental health. Why Am I Like This is the name of the book she's written as a sort of roadmap to help us navigate the very unique pressures and anxieties so many of us come up against in life today. Uncertain futures, reliance on tech, increasing social disconnection, burnout, the list goes on.

1:18She's also really open about what she's learned from being diagnosed with ADHD. One of those things being that she's able to be a bit kinder to herself. That's something most of us constantly need to work out. Blimmin' heck, I do. I can be a right old cow to myself. It's just I am my worst enemy. Like many of you out there, I'm sure that resonates. I can pick on myself, say nasty things about myself. And I mean, I talk about this stuff every blimmin' day. So this episode in particular was a really good reminder to just be like, stop being a dick to myself. Come on, Fern, you know how it works.

1:57We chatted about feeling particularly sensitive to rejection. What it's like being an introvert, growing up with an extroverted sibling that, as you well know, is Harry Styles, obviously, and worrying you've really pissed someone off with something that you said. Oh, that one keeps me up at night. You're going to really enjoy this one.

2:53We'll be right back.

3:13freelance expert. That's U-P-W-O-R-K dot com. Post a job for free and get started today. I'm here on the job site with Dale, who's a framing contractor. Hey, good morning. Dale traded up to Geico Commercial Auto Insurance for all his business vehicles. We're here where he needs us most. Yep, they sure are. We make it easy for him to save on all his insurance needs, all in one place, with coverage that fits his business and bottom line. Oh, I shouldn't have looked down. It's all right. We're so far up here. Look at me. Take a deep breath. Oh, I'm good. So good. Get a commercial auto insurance quote today at geico.com and see how much you could save.

3:49Get more with Geico. Right, let's do it. Here's the show.

4:16Gemma! Hi! Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you too. I feel like I have met you. In fact, yeah, I think we have done. I think that's just what you say at the beginning, isn't it? Like, nice to meet you. I'm like, no, we're beautiful. I conflate reality with social media and I'm like, I see Gemma every day. But then, but then have I? It's confusing. Absolutely not. But this is the world we live in now, isn't it? I know. Are you good? I'm good. How are you? I'm really good. I'm extremely impressed that you're managing to do Press for a Book with a very young baby still How is the juggle? Oh the juggle is juggling and I feel like I shouldn't have been surprised because I've heard so many parents, mums that say for so many years how hard it is to juggle everything Shouldn't have been a shock Wasn't a shock but it was still hard even though it was expected It's just different when you're living it to other people dishing out that sort of advice isn't it It's such a different thing because there's not only the practical element of you've got a baby to look after, but you're also trying to do things.

5:13It's the emotional bit that no one can really explain to you that takes up so much of your headspace. And it's almost inexplicable. Yeah, even the tiny things like the practical bits in terms of like, I just need to reply to one email, which isn't a lot of time. So I shouldn't feel too guilty. But then like she can see me on my phone and I'm like, we're not supposed to do that in front of me. Not supposed to do. And it's just, yeah, there's so many things you try and be. that one's hard yeah and this is the thing I know I'll settle into it more as well because what I would say to anyone else in the same situation is like nobody's a perfect parent there's all like all the rest of it but when it's you it's just it's harder to take on board isn't it yeah and you just try and do your best and that you know there's varying degrees of success depending on how you feel each day as to how that goes there was that sweet video I don't know if it was on your or picture on your Instagram or your mum's where you were doing your audio book for Why Am I Like This and your lovely mum Anne was looking after Bubba.

6:06She was. I know. She's a lovely granny. Is she granny? Nan? Nana? What's the terminology we're using? We're still finding it. We were going nanny because that's what we had always used in my family. But we're leaning nonna at the moment. Nonna? Italian vibes. Exactly. I like it. Which we quite like it. It's funny, isn't it? Like some of my friends' mums have gone, do not call me nan or granny. Like the acceptance is low. So they've gone with sort of a nickname or just something made up altogether. which is the thing and we still might land there I don't know but she's not started talking yet so I feel like if she just makes one up then that'll be it that's gonna stick that is actually the way forward my stepson who's 22 he started calling my father-in-law dandan when he was little so now all grandkids call him dandan instead of I'm imagining granddad so he's just dandan for life so who knows what your baby will come up with your clever little baby I don't know it's so sweet I'm excited.

7:03So alongside being a new mum, you've written this brilliant book, Why Am I Like This? My brain isn't broken and neither is yours. Many of us need to hear that, I think. Hopefully that sums up a bit of the, I feel like reassuring is kind of the tone of what I wanted the book to be and how I hope it's come out that way. So I feel like hopefully that comes across at least on the cover. It seems from reading it that one of your coping mechanisms or your way of trying to understand why you feel like you do at certain points is to look to science is to look to references and studies and to try and really get all of the knowledge that you can to form some sort of picture or maybe like a roadmap as to why you're feeling like that and also how you get out of it why do you think you're that way inclined um I mean I think so I at uni I did science teaching so I feel like I've always been interested in science in general I guess and I just really like understanding why things are the way they are I find it much more comforting in terms of like don't know whatever's going on I just need as much information as possible about it and I feel like then I can process it a lot more easily but I think it kind of it's probably similar with lots of things in terms of like something else I talk about in the book is like my ADHD diagnosis for example and I feel like that is quite a good example of it doesn't necessarily change anything when you have that information.

8:31But having the information is still really comforting. And still, I just find it easier to wrap my head around things a bit more, the more I know about it. Do you think if we look specifically at ADHD and your diagnosis, that that's helped you not only understand it, but have some sort of level of acceptance towards the things that you might have struggled with? Because I've certainly had that with people that I know, people that are very close to me that have ADHD that with that diagnosis and a little understanding as to what it means and and why your brain works in a certain way they've stopped beating themselves up so much that's been the main sort of positive out of it yeah I'd completely agree with that I would say that's been the main thing for me is like more so than it actually changing your behavior necessarily because obviously because obviously as an underlying thing it's not ADHD isn't something that comes and goes and you know you don't get it or be cured from it or whatever it's kind of it just is so yeah I think the acceptance thing would definitely be my biggest positive of actually having the diagnosis um yeah purely for that reason that just because when you're kind of sat in your house look you know struggling to start to do a task or thinking about all the things you've not done or just remembering something you've forgotten to do or just sitting there beating yourself up basically and yeah sort of asking that question like like why why am I doing this like why is my brain like this it does just answer part of that question which for me has been yeah really helpful emotionally more than anything else I think so what led you because obviously there's a point where you go I need to go and get this checked out what what led you to go and seek a bit of advice and get the diagnosis so me personally it was and this is why I find it quite funny when quite a lot of the the sort of conversations that people end up having on social media about ADHD do tend to be people sort of saying you know oh it's like trendy now like everyone's got it or everyone diagnoses themselves on social media but the reason why I kind of looked into it was because another woman who was about the same age as me had had been diagnosed and had kind of gone on her Instagram stories and talked about it and kind of talked about the things that she struggled with and then how she ended up getting this diagnosis and it was all quite you know she didn't expect it and all the rest of it and my best friend who's known me since I was five sent me her stories and was like I don't want you to take this the wrong way but this really sounds like you because she's you know is one of the people who knows me the best in the world and knows the things that I you know was really struggling with and the things I had struggled with for the whole of my life and that includes you know the things I don't like about myself and the things you you sort of struggle with wanting to change or just not knowing why you are the way you are and so yeah she sent me those stories like babe is this you and I was like wow okay yeah and it really did and I kind of I sat with that still for like maybe a year afterwards and didn't do anything about it but the question was still sort of ticking and then the algorithm being what it is you know I started getting all the things like more videos and more sort of posts and information about it and obviously was reading other things not just on social media.

11:38But it is so helpful. I think, you know, I've seen that as well. And it's a subject that is close to my heart. And I've done a lot of looking into and learning as much as I can about ADHD. I definitely lean towards sort of similar viewpoints to you that I want to understand it. I want to know the whys and the hows and really dig into it. And I've seen that same sort of rhetoric that people are going, oh, yeah, everyone's got ADHD now. well actually we just weren't having this conversation back in the 80s when I was a kid you were just either the naughty kid at school or you were distracted you were the daydreamer and that's sort of within the the school sphere but I think it was similar for adults out there that were sort of struggling relationship wise or in their jobs because the language wasn't there and the access point wasn't there it was such a sort of a niche subject that would maybe be talked about in a medical sense but certainly not talked about in what I think is a really healthy way today with sort of like you say friends sending you articles or things on Instagram and people just having a really healthy debate and conversation about it it's um and also like why would someone actively go oh yeah I want to have ADHD but I don't so I'm gonna say I have I find that really perplexing as well yeah I think yeah I think it's it's one of those things like so many others that if you don't understand it and you don't have any experience of it or you don't know anyone who's been affected by it and you don't know what kind of effect it actually can have on people's lives and you know not not everyone necessarily because you know i'm that there's no hard and fast rule for anything but so many people and so many women especially haven't been diagnosed until it's kind of not too late but too late and the kind of mental health impacts have already happened and that's that's what the really the terrible bit is and i mean when you actually look at the situation at least in this country it's only relatively recently that the nhs and our kind of like public health guidelines even acknowledged that adults can be diagnosed with adhd so if you think about it like for all of those decades beforehand it's not that those people didn't exist it's just that there was literally there was no framework that anybody even could have been formally diagnosed because within our health system it apparently didn't exist so it's all paperwork at the end of the day and we hate that yeah true i'm really interested to know from what i've looked into with adhd a very interesting part is the comorbidities these these things that can run parallel to adhd and it can be a whole plethora of things but many people and i'm not sure what the percentage is but i think many people who have adhd it will come along with something else whether it's depression anxiety it could be OCD it could be ADD there's all these other things that can come along with it yeah do you think that the depression you talk about in the book the anxiety you talk about in the book do you think they're comorbidities do you think the ADHD was there and then these were things you experienced due to it or do they feel separate to you I think they're definitely quite tangled up for me and yeah like you say I I talk about it in the book, kind of what my kind of experience has been of these things.

14:50Yeah, I think I completely understand why in an abstract sense, being undiagnosed with, you know, a neurodivergent condition can end up leading to mental health problems. I think a lot of people don't realise that, you know, like ADHD isn't a mental health issue. And I think some people are surprised by that because so many people who are talking about ADHD talk about the effect that not knowing they had it has had on them and it is so so sort of mingled in with poor mental health at this point and it doesn't have to be the case and i think that there's lots of campaigners and activists and all sorts of people even just people with lived experience who are talking about this and sort of saying you know it's not it's not that there's something wrong with us you know it's just that operating within a system and society and all the rest of that maybe isn't aware or doesn't cater for or just just doesn't really have you know like enough of an elastic waistband to kind of cope with anybody whose brain works a little bit differently like it's really stressful to live your life in that kind of environment that doesn't really suit you and you know there's lots of it's not just adhd you know there's lots of people with lots of different situations or personalities even who just you know when you don't fit perfectly or fit comfortably into what everybody else is doing it is uncomfortable and when you do that for years upon years upon years especially when you don't know what the reason is of course it's going to have a massive impact on your mental health and that's that was definitely true for me i think knowing that the portion of people that do have or have been given a neurodivergence label now who have been officially diagnosed because we know those numbers they're bigger than we even know now but they're there and they weren't before it feels like the systems we live in need to change more than the people diagnosed which I think we're still looking for this how can we fix this person especially when it's kids how can we make them sit still in the classroom how can we make sure they're focused for as long as possible and of course there's a fine line because you do want kids to feel confident in school and to be able to learn and enjoy it but we are still living in a pretty Victorian system, certainly when you look at that kind of the narrow lane of how schools work, is that you are in a chair all day or for a large portion of the day and you're learning in a real sort of static way.

17:11And if anything, now we know that more people out there are neurodivergent, we need to change, like you say, that elastic waistband of like changing the system, giving more room for people to learn in different ways and people to work in different ways. But I feel like that's a long way off sadly yeah I think it I think it probably is and to think about it practically as well I couldn't tell you what the answer is to be honest it would take somebody who knows much much more much more than I do because what I mean if you looked at the option of kind of you know separating out people who had ADHD to let them learn in a different way that doesn't feel right at all but equally you know I've taught in schools like I understand it's such a hard job anyway and already teachers are doing so much hard work and you know trying their absolute best I know to cater for every child in their classroom and everybody needs different things and it's just you know it's it's it's really hard it's a hard question oh my god I am so in love with the teachers at my kids school I've actually like the friend like you are my friend now we are friends and I don't know how they do the job especially when they're little kids and you've got all these different personality types and now we've got neurodivergent labels that we're aware of and that we need to cater for.

18:19I don't know how they do it. They're saints. I love teachers. I'm getting a badge made. They're amazing. Absolutely. I'll have one. Yeah, I'll give you a badge. You get a badge. Well, you are one, but also, well, you were one. We'll have a teacher badge, just saying how much we love them. They are the absolute best. What was your experience of school then? So you're in a classroom, you know, and this isn't even in this day and age where there's slightly more awareness. You're in an era where people aren't using that language. People aren't necessarily aware that kids might need slightly different structures or ways to work.

18:47Did you find it difficult? Well, so this was the thing, and I think this is a big part of the reason why, you know, nothing was ever flagged when I was at school, because I really liked school and I did well at school and I enjoyed school. And that's kind of, again, is one of the things I think that comes up and is a fairly common pattern with women, especially partly because, you know, little girls to stereotype, because that's the point of the conversation is, are very often socialized into being more well behaved. only in terms of and I think I hope that is changing a bit now actually I see so many of my friends who've got such like rambunctious little girls and they're really sort of like encouraged to just run wild and do you know play in the mud climb a tree like do all the stuff that we've told the boys they should be doing like love love all that love but I think you know in in general girls women are very kind of you know are more likely to kind of be socially you know wanting to make people happy yeah so behaving themselves and not getting themselves into trouble the era of the good girl is dead kill it dead we're moving on from it but i guess the other half of that is you know the thing about i feel like attention deficit disorder is actually like reasonably badly named because it's not necessarily a lack of attention it's more of i'd say a difficulty controlling where that attention goes so if you're interested in something you tend to be absolutely fine and if anything you can be better at really tuning in yeah exactly exactly that and get really dialed in and interested and you can stay focused on what you're doing because you're interested in it and I like learning and I enjoyed school so actually for a lot of that time that kind of wasn't the area where I was having problems so I think and I think that's one of the reasons why you know just it wouldn't have been picked up then because yeah you know I can't even be angry at anyone at school or anything else about it because like they didn't know like nobody really seemed to know so you know it's not not really their fault either so I suppose so your hyper focus luckily was in learning so that's a brilliant thing but leads to then sort of not looking into it as a as a kid because you're just doing just fine as an adult what the areas that you noticed oh actually I'm struggling in this area this is really challenging for me?

21:02So a lot of things for me will be kind of managing my own time, I guess, which like, it sounds bad because day to day, that's not really what it feels like. But I guess what or when is maybe a better way to explain it. So when things started to get quite a lot worse for me, or when I found things really difficult, and it really, really badly started affecting my mental health was when I left home and went to uni. And I think that's because so school for me maybe I liked it so much because it's very structured and you know the windows of you doing things are fairly short so there's not you know people with ADHD quite often we're doing things at the last minute because it's the urgency that knocks down that wall of like not having the motivation because it's not about being motivated because you have no choice because the deadline is now and yeah the window of time for things at school you know it's all very it's very structured very timetabled the people know you if you're behind on something or you know you've forgotten to do something there's very likely going to be a teacher or a form tutor or someone to be like you haven't done that did you forget that sort of thing and it's you know the the safety net and the the people who know you it's it's comfortable or it was for me that sort of schooly environment but yeah I think leaving home and going to uni and it's all of a sudden like just a there's just less people keeping an eye on you not even in a kind of safeguarding like are you feeling okay sort of thing but just you know if you're struggling to concentrate or struggling to start working on that deadline you know weeks before as opposed to a couple of days before there's just not really as many people to notice and it's got it's on you all of a sudden and I think that's you know probably the same for lots of people who leave home for the first time in lots of different ways whether it is to uni or not it's suddenly there's lots of parts of your life that you're managing yourself that you weren't before or you weren't completely before kind of without someone constantly seeing what you're doing so that was when my wheels kind of fell off to be honest and all the kind of like you know you do this then you do that then you go to uni and then everything you go on and you and it all yeah I fell off that path completely and yeah I mean you say in the book that you you felt trapped and limited in your head at what point did you start to land on the words depression or anxiety?

23:25Again, probably when I was at uni, definitely going into my second year of uni, that was when it got to the point that I did go to a GP and sort of say, like, I just, I don't think this is quite right. Like I'm not happy, like in a way that feels like actually it's serious enough that I'm going to go and talk to a doctor about it, even though it feels really scary and awful and horrible. so yeah that was when you know people had started to talk to me more about depression and you know what what do we do about this thing sort of and it it's been such a long time since then it's quite it's almost quite hard to to think back on it and it's got it's it's difficult because it's not that I hadn't been in contact with anyone even so I think that's sometimes the frustrating part about it is that I had been speaking to doctors and like all sorts of medical people then throughout you know my whole my whole 20s for sure and yet there's just such I mean the ADHD it was such a big piece that was kind of unlocked that then it took like over a decade for that to kind of happen and that has made a massive difference so it's really good I know I feel the same looking back on a dark period that I had that I think it's encouraging for people to here that it can be so in the distance that it's hard to grasp what it feels like you know I can get the outline of how I felt in my head if I really wanted to go there I don't but it's possible to have a good life after a really awful period and of course when you're in it you don't think that you think well this is me for life everything's awful and bleak and nothing will ever feel great again and obviously it's not just a straightforward ascent to then feeling great but I think it's really important that people do get to hear stories where yes the the journey to get there might have been undulating but you're not in that place anymore and and maybe it takes a diagnosis or maybe it takes you know just going through a bit of growth you know learning growing up whatever but I think it's really good to hear that it's possible yeah and it's actually the there is research that kind of shows that is you know it feels quite instinctively like a really powerful message but it actually is really impactful on people as well which I think is always good to remember I work as an like an ambassador role for MQ which is a mental health research charity and kind of when you look at suicide specifically which obviously is is a very heavy topic there's a lot of research that goes on into you know how do you prevent that and one of the most powerful things that you can do is share stories about about how bad it was and how it can get better which feels you know as I said instinctively it feels like that's a good thing to do but there are numbers to back it up which I always enjoy so yeah yeah I mean it's definitely something that motivates me with all the happy place stuff or even these interviews it's just it's just hearing stories and I can think back to books I've read or podcasts that I've heard where people have had an experience of feeling like the world is over nothing will ever be okay again and then actually incrementally there's change which allows a new horizon something different I definitely needed to hear that back then did you feel like you you were imbibing any positive stories or things that helped at the time or did that just feel out of reach when you were in the depths of it I mean I think it probably did feel quite out of reach at the time but I think that's what's so kind of powerful about it and I think a lot of what it was for me particularly in that time in my kind of very early 20s I just felt at the time like there had been a plan and I was kind of hitting the marks of the plan and suddenly the plan was kind of absolutely falling to pieces and I just didn't know what to do and I didn't know what the rest of my life was going to look like if I deviated from that plan and I think especially when you've only you know when you're in your early 20s it's a really hard time anyway because it's such it's such a transitional phase of your life and it does feel like everything's kind of the end of the world but when you're in your early 20s your brain isn't even fully developed yet and you also have no frame of reference for what your life is going to be going forward because all you know is is what you've already done and kind of the same way that every single generation it's like you know people older than you talk to you and they're like oh you know in my day or it'll all be all right because this happened to me so what you're saying fuck off i don't care what your thing is they're like this to me but but yeah and it's kind of like well you don't understand what's happening to me but it's yeah I mean and it's true you might people might not understand what's happening to you but equally it is it is a true thing that you know there's there's so much better that things can get when they feel that dark and I hope yeah that's that's something that I mean I think that's one of the really like key messages obviously of what you do with happy place which I think is like yeah you're doing it with this book and it's I just think people being open about mental health is a new thing, you know, in terms of the history of the human race.

28:18It's a new thing that we're talking about this stuff. And it's so healthy to be able to just have open, honest conversations. The market's uncertain. Revenue's tied and hiring on hold. That's why results-driven companies are using Upwork to keep work moving. Go to upwork.com today and start hiring proven freelance talent fast. No bulky overhead. No rigid long-term contracts. Just the right expert right when you need them. Work smarter and faster with Upwork. Go to Upwork.com now and find your freelance expert. That's U-P-W-O-R-K dot com. Post a job for free and get started today. If you're a smoker or vapor ready to make a change, you really only need one good reason.

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29:39We make it easy for him to save on all his insurance needs, all in one place, with coverage that fits his business and bottom line. Oh, I shouldn't have looked down. It's all right. We're so far up here. Look at me. Take a deep breath. No, I'm good. So good. Get a commercial auto insurance quote today at geico.com and see how much you could save. Get more with Geico. I mean, something you touched on in the book, and this sort of fits into this conversation, is one way that we're all able to do it today is via social media. And we've all got now the opportunity to say, you know, storytell or, you know, look to science or whatever it might be to talk about mental health.

30:20And you asked the question in the book, is social media a help or hindrance? I mean, I'm not sure any of us can find a definitive answer for that one. But what is your own bespoke feeling around that? You know, you've got over 10 million Instagram followers, which is insane. There's pressure that comes with that. There's perhaps even a sense of responsibility that comes with that. What do you feel about social media? I mean, if I had to, you know, if you had to draw a straight line and it has to be, is it a good thing? Is it a bad thing? I think it's a good thing. There is, you absolutely can't deny, you know, all of the amazing things that can be achieved.

30:54And like there's so much like charity campaigning and like awareness raising. and you know we're so much more able now to kind of just just have information from all corners of the world at all times and it's you know that's such a relatively new thing and it's a great thing however that technology you know has evolved at a much faster speed than our brains are going to evolve to cope with it literally like you know within my lifetime you know social media wasn't a thing when I was a kid it just it wasn't so phones weren't when I was a kid but you know what I mean it's kind of like it feels like a long time like I feel like we kind of you can't really imagine life without social media now but actually in the terms of you know the species of being a human even in one person's life we just haven't been equipped to keep up with it at the speed that it's changed so even though I think it is overall a good thing I think it's also completely understandable that there are a lot of things about it that we find really hard and I think that is you know doing the research into those sort of statistics and like the actual reasons why that is I found really reassuring so yeah I hope that when people are reading that chapter there's a lot of kind of oh okay of course I feel that way because of course that makes sense and I think there's a lot of you know just stay in your own lane and do you and like yes be involved and everything and know everything, but don't read too much news.

32:19But you have to know everything that's going on, but don't be too involved because it's bad for your mental health. And it just all gets so confusing. Oh, that one absolutely fools me. I know. I feel like I'm in that conundrum constantly of how much should I know? And also comparatively, back in the day, people sort of knew very little. They would know what was going on in their own town maybe or community. And now we are sort of expected to have a great understanding of everything going on and somehow stay sane and then deal with the sort of minutiae of our everyday lives. It's so confusing. Do you have your own sort of rule book that you've created as to how you use social media and remain feeling mentally well?

32:58Have you got your own sort of rules and regulations about how you use it? I'd say nothing hard and fast, but I guess if there was one rule, it's kind of just pay attention to how I'm feeling in terms of in my actual body, how do I feel? because I think you know sometimes you want to just lay on the sofa and it's actually quite you know relaxing and regulating and all the rest of it to just scroll for a while and switch your brain off and if that's what you want to do sometimes fine I do I don't particularly see a problem with that I have to say but if you notice kind of if I notice in my body that I'm scrolling and scrolling and I'm just feeling a bit you know start feeling a bit squirrely and like you're not really concentrating on that but you're not relaxed either and everything just you just feel your cortisol levels creeping up and just feel a bit stressed and you're reading the comments section and getting annoyed at what someone's written and how could they possibly say that or how do they not understand that and everything just starts creeping up a bit that to me would be a sure sign that like we need a break from this at the moment so i think our brains can't take that on it's crazy all of those things in the comments would have been just a thought in someone's head a hundred years ago yeah and we didn't know what well we still don't know what other people are thinking when we're just in conversation but but now we think we do like this person this is what they think exclusively and of course it's a snapshot in time and it's ephemeral and it will be gone in five minutes but because it's in black and white it's it feels so weighted and real I don't know how we're meant to take that on and unless we really learn to not take things personally which is such a hard lesson to learn.

34:36Yeah, and it's one of the main things about social media, I think, especially when it's stuff like that happening or, you know, these sorts of conversations that are being had and it's on a public post or a public webpage or comment section or whatever, because in theory anybody in the world could see it, it feels like everybody's seen it. So, of course, it feels massively heavy and, you know, like everyone's ganging up on you and all that's going to do in your body and in your brain is kick into action certain reflexes and certain responses that again I feel like my catchphrase today is going to be like as I talked about in the book but I did write about this reference the book as I did write about this part and it's kind of the in an evolutionary sense those things make complete sense and those reactions make complete sense and it's actually I find it good to know it's you know those ways that your body reacts and the way that that feels it's all part of a system and a mechanism that's kind of designed to keep you safe yeah and I find that quite a nice thought rather than you know it's just everything in your brain is going completely haywire because it's so so stressful and it's a bad thing and that's how it's going to be it's actually it's all part of systems that are designed for your protection it's just that they're not used to this environment and that's why you kind of get into such a it can get really flustering and confronting and it feels awful and I think you know most of us have probably had that experience online at one point or another oh god well I mean you've got 10 million plus followers that's that's a lot of people to contend with with varying opinions and ideas yeah and also moving into the realm of the sort of compare and despair where we look and see what other people are doing and how they're operating I mean how much do you think that's impacted you over the years yeah I think definitely kind of knowing that people are not watching you and it's a it's a funny thing because it is obviously I'm really really grateful for it and kind of you know without having that sort of platform like I get to talk about mental health and I get to talk about these charities and I get to do like I got to write a book and I get to talk about it and all of this stuff which is is amazing but I think yeah there's a level of kind of introspection that it forces you to have because you know that whatever you say there are a certain number of people who are going to hear it which is an enormous privilege but also makes you wildly overthink everything you say if you're anything like me um I literally dedicated the book to overthinkers because yep they're my people you are my people I hear you it's the pits and I think you know having everyone's on social media now so we can all experience this to a degree that it can feel stifling knowing that people are going to comment on anything whether it's a picture something you've written a piece of art whatever that commentary is a given I think feels stifling and my fear with all of it is it stops us from truly exploring and exploring who we are and exploring the different boundaries that we might want to test out and it also stops us from trying new things and actually peeling back the layers to be really who we want to be like the true true person that's underneath all these layers which maybe takes a lifetime to uncover yeah but my worry is that that given the sort of mandatory element of commentary around everything stops us from exploring that I can certainly sense that there have been times where I've diluted myself a little bit or I've I've overthought something to a level of insanity and then I haven't said anything me too yeah it's a tricky one it is and I think it's well yeah exactly I mean we're just two people as an example but there you go let's use that example everybody it happens to everyone but yeah I think I think that's a very relatable feeling that you've kind of just talked about I know I certainly relate to that and I think it is I find I don't think it's the absolute worst thing in the world because I think it comes from a place of not necessarily you know I don't want people to be upset with me but quite often for me when I feel like that it's that I don't want to upset anyone yeah so I think it's kind of it's a lot of social media people can look at and say you know it's so so ego driven and so you know profile building and brand building and all the rest of it and part of it is of course it is but I think is also just remembering you know it's just people at the end of the day it's all people and it's most of the time it's good people who don't want to say anything wrong because they don't want to upset people not because they're worried about themselves yeah no I get that I think it's a really interesting exercise to sit back and go oh which one is it am I genuinely worried about upsetting people or am I actually putting some barricades around myself because I don't want to get hurt and I don't want to like be seen as weird or whatever it might be I think that's quite an interesting moment to pause and go oh which one is it I mean also another thing that we've got in common is being an introvert I'm not often assumed an introvert but I am one I love communicating I love talking sometimes I like being around lots of people but rarely because I find it extremely tiring I really like being on my own and I need it to counter everything else that I'm doing how does your introvertedness impact you what have you learned about yourself from realizing that i mean i think if we're still kind of talking on the social media train i think social media is almost like perfect for introverts because you do it's it's socializing but in a way that is kind of away from humans yeah well you you set the boundaries on it you know and it's kind of it's the kind of socializing where you can go i'm feeling a bit overwhelmed now well, bye, put that down and kind of take the breaks from it wherever you can.

40:33Whereas, you know, if you're in the middle of a party and you need a break, you go and hide in the loo for 10 minutes like I do. I just leave. I just go and don't even say goodbye. I just go, whoop. I look like I'm going to the toilet, but I keep on walking. Exit via the toilet. That's what I'm going to start doing. I did it at a wedding the other day. Sneak out the window. It was so bad. But you know, the calundrum is, I was then quizzed the day after the wedding. Oh, did you see such an event? So it was like there was a band playing or something. Yeah. And in my head, I was like, do I lie? So my French exit was uncovered because I couldn't lie.

41:04And I said, oh, no, I left for that bitch, which felt awful. I thought I can't lie. So French exits, they're not foolproof. Like, you know, you can still be outed. Yeah. Well, that's a good one to remember. Maybe I won't be climbing up the bathroom window. No, no, no, no, no. OK. Don't do that. It's a terrible idea. I mean, you wrote an essay about growing up with a brother who is an extrovert. very different to you yeah and I guess that's an interesting way to grow up seeing living in the same home as somebody who just reacts to the world in a very very different way and I've got my brother's probably quite an introvert as well but I've got best friends who are who feed off other people's energy who hate being alone who need that social interaction to really feel boosted alive and inspired yeah it's a very different feeling I mean obviously your brother's gone on to have a career that you have to be an extrovert to be at that level of fame and that level of interaction with so many other people how did you feel growing up alongside someone that had that extrovertedness well I mean that's the thing so at school we were you know just just very different characters like you wouldn't have necessarily put that we were related together immediately so it was kind of you know stop talking in class maybe you should talk more in class that sort of thing but I think it's very sort of universal I think among people and like you say I would be the same I've got lots of friends who are that kind of person who are really extroverted and you know we'll be at the same party and you sort of get to the end of an event or something and it's me who's going okay that was fun but my god I can't wait to be at home in bed a cup of tea just like calm down and unwind from this whereas you know that extroverted person whether it is someone in your family or a friend of yours or whoever is very they're at the after party exactly yeah they're like where are we going next and i'm like oh good god absolutely not like just i knew i couldn't so i think it's yeah it's that kind of thing that yeah whether they're in your family or someone you know someone you know in any other way it's sort of appreciating the differences between people and as i like to do kind of understanding why that might be and literally the sort of brain and chemistry reasons for that i quite enjoy because now you know if I'm like wanting to go home and thinking I've just I've had enough socializing for today even though I've really enjoyed it I can be thinking to myself well I know what the chemicals in my brain are doing right now it's not my fault yes I I need to know that because I think I spent a long time envying my friends that were extroverts and thinking I wish I had that energy and I felt boosted being in that scenario whereas I often just feel kind of awkward and like I need to just get out of there it's all just too overstimulating yeah I mean that's yeah that's how I feel a lot of the time but it just turns out we're just you know we're more sensitive to these things so our fun meter fills up quicker and then everything that comes above that is too much oh my fun meter is full in like two seconds I'm like I'm peaked I'm out I mean a phrase that I or a term that I learned in your book is RSD rejection sensitive dysphoria which can again going back to the start of this conversation can be a comorbidity with ADHD talk to me about this because when you first read about this term, something sort of rang true with you about this, right?

44:15Yeah, especially, you know, like we've just been talking about the whole social media and how do you, how much do you kind of censor yourself and how much do you worry about what other people are saying? You know, when things do come up and somebody disagrees with you or you accidentally say something and upset someone or you, it's kind of how you then deal with that. And I think a lot of people would kind of, a lot of people if somebody says to you like oh actually that wasn't quite right you'd sort of go oh I'm sorry I didn't know that whereas I would go oh my god like it's like oh I can't believe I got that wrong I'm so sorry I feel awful I feel like I've done something terrible I feel like everyone hates me like that sort of feeling is part of what this this RSD thing is about and it is it quite often happens with ADHD which is how I ended up reading about it but again I think it is just one of those things and so much of what I keep coming back to in the book is just kind of there's so many of these feelings that we have in private and think we're so weird for and it ends up making us feel worse because you're kind of sitting on your own with these feelings and wondering what you've done wrong or why you can't cope or why everybody else doesn't feel that way and actually a lot of a lot of other people do feel that way it's just that we don't really talk about it and we don't understand why we feel that way so I think yeah for me it constantly comes back to the more information we have and the more that we understand ourselves the more we can just give ourselves a break oh god I know everything's hard everything's hard at the moment life's hard I hear you and the RSD thing certainly rang true to me in so many ways I mean you tell a story in the book about mispronouncing a name from Les Mis, which was the most brilliantly relatable story.

46:03I mean, we've all done it. We've all said, I called someone the wrong name on a podcast episode once. Awful. I mean, I've done way worse on radio. I can't even get into that. But like we say things either without thinking or we give something a try without really knowing. Like that's part of being a human. But I think the pressure we put on ourselves today to get it all perfect, everything to be right, is insane. And you really beat yourself up about this mispronunciation. Yeah, I still think about it all the time, which is why I'm hoping it's actually going to be therapeutic to just like get that out of my head and just tell people that I'm thinking that.

46:36I know, it's too late now. Everybody knows that I've never seen Les Mis. I don't know how to say it. Oh, I've not seen, have I seen Les Mis? If I have, I've forgotten about it. I don't even know. I think it's long, isn't it? It's really long. I wouldn't know. I've not seen it. You've not seen it, babe. But this is the thing. we don't let these things go and we chew over them. I have things like this where I could be having a really happy moment and that's when it creeps in and it goes, hey, remember 10 years ago when you did this? I'm like, no, not now. I'm having a really lovely time. I'm really enjoying myself.

47:01Why does that happen then? Why? But it's the pits. And also those people that you mispronounce that name to when talking about Les Mis that you've never seen, so who cares? Those people will have never thought about that ever again. they would have gone on their jolly way but I do but you do all the time every week every damn week you walk past a theatre there's a post of Les Mis every time I see Anne Hathaway Anne Hathaway gives you the shudders because of it it's so good but I had like one really therapeutic thing I did and I urge you to do that I mean you've already done it you've outed yourself in a book but I had this really great chat with someone that I really trusted and we had this really good moment where she said I'm going to tell you something that I'm deeply mortified about.

47:46You tell me something that you're deeply mortified about. And mine was something that I felt so uncomfortable about. I don't think I'd even written it in a diary. It was just shamefully living in isolation in my body and my mind. You went there. And I went there and I said it out loud and then she was really vulnerable with me and told me this thing that had happened to her. And obviously our reaction in equal measures was to go, what are you worrying about that for? That's not even a thing. And it felt so huge to us, so huge that we were like, but what do you mean? It's a huge, awful, big mistake that I've made or thing that I did or whatever it might have been for the both of us.

48:25And we were just like, well, don't worry about it. Like, give yourself a break. And it's so lovely to hear someone else say it to you. It almost gives you permission to go, I don't have to be an asshole to myself about this. Yeah. And worry about it for years and years and years. But it's so hard to give yourself that permission. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It's really hard. But I think knowing why we do that, I do find reassuring. Because it is that thing. And it's exactly like that situation. Everybody does it and everybody has those things. But we all think that other people don't. We think all the perfect people haven't done it.

48:57Like all the Beyonce's, we think, oh, they've never messed up. Of course they have. Exactly. Of course they have. Beyonce has got someone's name wrong in her life. I'm sure she has. Of course, loads of people. She makes people all the time. She probably just calls everyone the same name. Whatever. knowing that you've got a past with poor mental health as I have you've got to be one of those people like I am who keeps an eye out for your mental health and does certain things or doesn't do certain things to ensure that you keep things as in check as you can which is difficult on any given day especially with a newborn baby so what do you do or what are the do's and the absolute don'ts to make sure that you're doing what you can to feel okay?

49:39I guess what I do is just keep in touch with myself which again is kind of such like a nebulous answer but I don't think for me at least it's not kind of incredibly strict routines that make me feel better. I think incredibly strict routines maybe would make me more productive but I don't know if they would actually make me happier and I think very important I'm much more interested in being happy than I am being productive sorry to everyone I work with um no that's the healthiest thing I think anyone could say about work is if you're pushing yourself to be productive and you're fucking miserable why why are we doing it yeah which I guess actually the the proper answer to that then is the thing that I have changed in my life in order to like facilitate my own happiness is I am radically honest about what I'm able to do and what I'm not able to do in terms of and it might be you know it might be things that seem silly like you know if i've forgotten to do something can someone just nudge me as in or you know just letting people know if i've forgotten something i really don't mind if you nudge me i don't mind a double email that sort of thing things like i know deadlines for me so writing a book for example with adhd was you know writing books hard anyway as i'm sure you will know but me as a first time author um so hard so so hard but if i had you know been had had the had a last meeting with my editor and been sent away and said okay we'll see you in a year with a finished manuscript absolutely not a chance and some people will work like that amazingly because everybody's different and we all you know thrive in in different ways for me i think in previous years if someone had kind of said to me you know all right see you in a bit and let you know we'll see what you come up with I kind of would have gone oh okay if that's the way it works if that's the way you do it then okay I'll go away and do this whereas for me now I'm very open and happy to sort of say like that that probably you won't get the best from me in that scenario is it okay if we work together and put you know maybe monthly deadlines in or I check in with you in a couple of weeks and see how I'm getting on and kind of break things up into smaller chunks and not to you know make make the accountability somebody else's problem but I find by just being honest about how my brain works I can kind of say you know I want I want both of us to be as happy as possible in this work scenario so this is probably how that's going to happen is that okay and you know the vast majority of the time people are like yeah of course I don't mind several shorter deadlines that works easier for me actually and you're like great fine and everybody cracks off.

52:15Yeah. So it's like good, healthy boundaries, talking, being honest. It's good stuff. What are the definite no-nos? Oh, I know one no-no. I know one of your no-nos. Actually, I wrote it down. Oh God. Not being on your own team. I love that. Yeah. Which is what we've talked about. Just being an arsehole to yourself. Yep. Horrible. I try not to do that anymore, which I did for so many years, which is, you know, what I was saying before, where you just kind of sit on your own in a room or, you know, maybe you're, you've gone to bed at night and either you're on your own or you know someone's asleep next to you or whatever and you just lay there in the dark thinking why am I this rubbish person who just can't do things properly and I just refuse to do that anymore I just won't do it because one I guess I know a bit more about how my brain works so I don't want to just sit there and feel that way but also I don't know I feel like I've read enough and learned enough about like humans and the human experience to know that it is such a common thing and that is how everyone feels.

53:12Therefore, you know, why? Why keep doing it if I know what the reason is? It just helps, like, untangle a lot of it. And, yeah, it has made a big difference to me. Good. We've all got to be on our own team. So bloody important. Well done on writing your first book. Thank you. It's no mean feat and you did it and it's there. Thank you. An actual book. I'm actually so proud of myself. I'm not even going to lie. So you bloody well should be. I'm really proud of it. Why are we so weird about saying that? Yeah. Like, it's such a brilliant thing. And, like, it's tangible. It's like it's sat there. It is there.

53:43It's amazing. You should be really proud. Thank you. In a non-patronising way. Gemma, it's been so lovely to chat to you. Really enjoyed that. And good luck with everything. Thank you. Thank you so much. This was lovely. Oh, Gemma, I really loved that. I'd never met Gemma, but I felt like I knew her. It was one of those weird things where I've been stalking her online for ages. And there she was in real life in my house. and she was just exactly as I'd hoped, warm, compassionate, articulate, so, so lovely. Thank you, Gemma, for being on Happy Place. By the way, a couple of weeks ago, I spoke to Lucinda Miller.

54:18She's a nutritionist about how food can affect our brains, particularly neurodivergent brains. So I definitely recommend listening to that if you haven't already. All right, I'm going to be back here next week. Until then, a massive thanks again to Gemma, to the producer, Anushka Tate at Happy Place Studios, and to you. Go easy on yourself, you lovely lot.

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