"Get comfortable with people not liking you!" Florence Given on embracing the cringe

0:00Hello and welcome to Happy Place with me Fern Cotton. This is the show that helps you find your lust for life. And today I'm chatting to Florence Gibbon. When I dance online or whatever, to other women that fucking love expressing themselves, they see that and they go, that's brilliant. Or to women who maybe don't have that courage, but know they want to, they take it as a permission slip to step over that line. To me, cringing, it's just this social enforced barrier. So when you hop on social media or you're in public and you see a woman without those same lines that confine you, something in you gets pissed off that she gives herself permission to do it.

0:39Hello, everyone. Properly, how are you? Do you know what I've spent the morning doing? Hand washing, like I'm in the Victorian era. My washing machine's broken. And do you know what I realised? I take that little baby for granted. I chuck all the washing in there, you know, literally five loads a day because I've got kids. Without it, my life's falling apart. I don't know what to do. So today, desperate measures because the guy can't come for four days. I'm hand washing. It takes forever. It's awful. So let's just pause and take a moment for the humble washing machine. And if you're feeling a bit crap today, just feel grateful for your washing machine because without them, we are stuffed.

1:23Now, in unrelated matters, if you are on the Internet, I'm pretty sure you will have seen Florence's incredible online world. You can't miss it. It is so colourful and bright and pink and gorgeous. She's so outwardly expressive of her internal world. She's an illustrator. I love her drawings, a bestselling author and an award winning podcaster too. Women Living Deliciously is the name of her latest book. And it's all about living a life by your own design, which I am very here for. Oh, do you know the things that really stick out in this conversation? One of them being the topic of cringe. I think we're so allergic to cringe and I hate it when we sort of point at others and go oh my god cringe or ick especially when people are just being themselves it's really not cool and actually it's a real big and I've done it obviously we all have but it's a real reflection of how we're not letting ourselves push boundaries and do things that might potentially feel cringe to us so that is a really important one.

2:23Also the currency of being liked, which hit me like a sack of shit. That is a big one for me. And we really dive into that topic. And also just doing scary things. There's loads in this chat that I think you're going to really like. And I really hope keeps you thinking all day afterwards and maybe even changes something for you. The market's uncertain. Revenue's tied and hiring on hold. That's why results-driven companies are using Upwork to keep work moving. Go to Upwork.com today and start hiring proven freelance talent fast. No bulky overhead. No rigid long-term contracts. Just the right expert right when you need them.

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4:45Sign up for Greenlight Infinity at greenlight.com slash podcast.

4:52I can't wait to do this. Here's the show.

5:17Yay! We're clapping. We've like, we've started. Yeah, no, no, I get like a rush of adrenaline. I got this before I recorded my audio book where I was like physically had to wriggle all the energy up. Yes, you've got to. Yeah, I've also not done many interviews at all. This is my second interview for the book. So it feels like letting out a wild animal. You know, I've just, I've had like a year and a half of working in solitude. Florence, you may release her in the Happy Place space. Officially welcome to Happy Place. I'm so happy to talk to you today. Thank you so much. What a joy. There's so much I want to talk to you about.

5:47First of all, I wish that I'd had a Florence Given growing up in my life. I don't think many people were talking in the way that you are now back when I was in my maybe late teens, early 20s. I mean, I'm nearly 20 years older than you, which I'm just sort of overcoming now. And I feel like I'm just learning a lot of these lessons in my early to mid 40s. You've come to a lot of these big conclusions in your early to mid 20s. What catalyzed that? What got you to the place where you can think big and look at how you want to live your life rather than just being dragged along by it? Yeah, I get asked this question a lot and I've only really been able to find the words to describe even my.

6:33I think everyone kind of has like a at least like a mild thirst for knowledge, but I've actually been able to be really curious about the world. and express that out loud, which is what I think is the most challenging part for a lot of people, especially with cancel culture, especially with everyone having their eyes on what we're saying. When I was 14 years old, I was in a little group of friends at school and I was isolated from the friend group. And when you're a teenager, that is the most painful thing you could possibly imagine. It's like an identity death. It's like social isolation. It's just so painful.

7:07And I developed anxiety disorder but I didn't know that's what it was at the time I was just so fed up with my mind tormenting me even when the girls went in the room and laughing at me in class there was still a bully in my head and I didn't understand that how can I be in my bedroom and still experiencing their punishment why am I still being made to feel small when the girls aren't in the room and I started to google all of this stuff like heart palpitations what does this mean um And it said, you have anxiety, try mindfulness. And so I took myself to WH Smith in Plymouth and I stumbled across this beautiful spiritual section on books.

7:47And I picked up this tiny little book. It's literally called The Little Book of Mindfulness. And I took it to read in a park and it completely changed my life. and I think someone else reading that book at the wrong time might it might not have had that same impact on them but because it was exactly what I needed in that moment I think being able to separate myself from my thoughts at 14 and actually feel that transformation inside of me allowed me to get curious about my social conditioning instead of being absorbed and consumed by it and so that led to this complete domino effect of thinking about well why do I feel this need to be pretty all the time why do I feel what is that voice in my head that calls me a monster when I look in the mirror what is this voice in my head and I started to have this questioning of absolutely everything and so I would say that my I've been thinking consciously since I was 14 it's not been a straight trajectory of just always being you know you don't learn about mindfulness and then you're the fucking Buddha like that just doesn't happen but I I had lots of remembering and forgetting and I think I definitely would credit the ongoing practice of curiosity and mindfulness to my ability to think big and for myself and I think that curiosity paired with this like radiant theatre kid energy that I've had since I was a kid has just allowed me to always express myself but I've definitely lost it along the way and it's not it's not always it's so hard to hold to that enthusiasm in this world and especially on social media but I've realized now that I would rather pay the price of people thinking I'm embarrassing or cringy or too much than suppress that because it makes me depressed when I suppress my self-expression.

9:33Oh I want to talk about cringe in a moment because it's a whole chapter that we need to dive into but I think it's really admirable because especially as a teen and a young person by nature you were impressionable you know you're kind of at that point in life where you're sponge-like and you're taking on different voices and and different you know societal pressures that are constantly around you I think it's pretty amazing that you've managed to almost mitigate that and go no I'm gonna do my own thing yeah and it's very lonely as well if you can't have your cake and eat it with anything just earlier we were talking about boundaries right and how hard it is to set boundaries you can't set boundaries and get everyone to like you you can't be yourself and and authentically yourself and expect there to be no reaction.

10:16I've also never really seen myself as a victim to it, which I think has kept me going. So when people do laugh or judge me or I've had friends isolate me before or, you know, having strange experiences with other women where I'm trying to better my life and suddenly friends just vanish, all of those experiences, I've never viewed it as something that was like personal even though it was unbelievably painful and I think that has allowed me to prioritize being authentic over choosing that shitty company and suppressing my self-expression yeah I mean it's a hard one I want to talk about this more because you've got this book that I absolutely love um women living deliciously which is not only brilliant but also It has all these gorgeous illustrations.

11:07Oh, you've bookmarked the pages. Oh, so I'm a nerd. I made notes. I hate you. I might have written all over it. But all these beautiful drawings in there as well. I love it. And boundaries comes up a lot because one way to live deliciously is everything you've just spoken of. Being authentic, being truly yourself, expressing yourself in the way that you want to. And as you've just said, that means that often people won't like you. That is something that I would say most of us, certainly a lot of people listening to this now, will really struggle with. I still do sometimes. I think I've been sort of conditioned since I was a teenager starting out in this industry that you have to be liked.

11:44There's a currency to that. It's why you're hired for a job or, you know, if you can't keep that momentum up on social media, people will not engage with what you're doing. And then that can obviously filter into your everyday life. You don't want to be ostracized. You don't want to be gossiped about, etc. How do we overcome that? How do we start to care less about what other people think? I'll speak for myself. For me, it was a shift in values. So instead of valuing that social acceptance and other people validating flaws, I've started to value actually whether or not I respect myself. So when I don't express myself, when I don't set those boundaries, that feeling of wanting to set that boundary, that discomfort doesn't go anywhere.

12:32It goes inside my body and I start to not have much respect for myself anymore. So I've started to respect more my ability to express myself, say no, wear the outfit that I want, express my opinions online more than having people like me. That doesn't mean it's not painful. That doesn't mean I don't feel that, what do they call it? Lizard brain, like your ancient brain response that doesn't want to be isolated. That doesn't mean that I don't feel that. But I don't allow it anymore to dictate my behavior as much. I can view it as a separate voice in my head. So when you're in that moment, say someone's left a shitty comment on your Instagram or someone in your actual life says to you something that makes you feel really awful defensive whatever in that moment and I know that feeling so well what do you do when you're sitting with it because what we normally want to do is write that straight away like oh I'm going to take back what I said I'm going to lift that boundary I've just said or delete that Instagram video because it's all too uncomfortable how do you just sit in it so I will always I'm leaving the post up first of all in that example would be just taking a deep breath and also allowing that voice in your head to go absolutely nuts defending itself and just not acting on it I think I've just created a gap now between when I respond and when I react that does I call it my inner good girl that just wants everyone to understand her especially on social media I'm sure you experience this when you when you like I love people all I want to do is help people connect to themselves I want to help people live a more joyful life and a more authentic life.

14:13That's all I want to do. And I feel like that's also your mission as well. Oh, yeah. So when your words are misconstrued, it is the most, it's like a knife to the chest. And I just want to type back, no, please. I didn't mean that. Please see me in this way. And I just want to correct everyone's thoughts about me in their heads. But that's, of course, that's impossible. I can't even control what goes on in my own fucking head sometimes. So why would I even try and go around fine tuning and trying to correct the reputation that everyone has of me in their head. It's just, it's like the biggest form of psychological suffering that I've ever experienced.

14:49And I think I've been through so much in my career that I actually, there's almost this respect that I've gained for myself now in surviving so much of that bullshit. So once you've experienced those negative comments and you keep the post up or you maybe text your mate and you vent to your mate, but you don't go online, you gain respect for yourself because it takes so much inner strength to stick to what you're saying and I just think also there's you have to sacrifice something so I can either go around correcting what everyone thinks about me um or I can keep my peace I can keep my peace and I was just rereading The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle love such good book and I was rereading it last week and he said you have to admit that there is a part of you that would rather be right than be at peace and just hearing those words again it was like it's just so good because you can't you can't have cake and eat it you can either be right yeah or you can be at peace and I think the image also of letting it go part of my ego feels like I've given up part of my ego feels like I'm letting them win and you do have to just let them win you just you do just have to let people say what they want about you um because there's nothing you can do to control it the only thing that you could do is to shrink and I'm not paying that cost anymore it's it literally was eating away at my body I became physically ill I just I spent years I wasn't even going to write this book um I actually told my publishers I was so burnt out I was screaming in my pillows every single morning and just the woman who loved her life was just gone and it was really depressing I just didn't even know how I'd got there and it was a series of small steps turning away from self-expression even something as like letting people decide things for me and just being like yeah okay that's fine and over time my life hadn't taken the shape of what floss loves it had taken the shape of what everyone else around me would have me live and I lost respect for myself I lost the confidence to even express myself and the journey back from that place for me was saying a big fat no to everything I told my publishers this is this is going to sound ridiculous to anyone who's not in the book world and like loves writing books but I said to my publishers I'm not going to write a book for another two years that was a big deal for me it was like no book for two years and I stopped doing my podcast that was exhausting me as well um and I don't even know if it was the podcast to be honest I think it was an inauthenticity issue it's not that I was being fake it's that I didn't have the courage to say what I actually wanted to say I wanted to talk about cancel culture I wanted to talk even about the way I felt feminism has evolved into something I don't like anymore I don't like that it's become this moral purity Olympics where everyone just cares about being like the most woke and saying the most yeah saying the most woke thing and the way that we hurt women now with their morals and like we don't call each other horrible names about our appearance anymore because you can't get away with that we'll just say a woman's problematic and no one's going to talk to her again and I wanted to say this stuff Fern but I didn't have the courage and I didn't respect myself for not having the courage to say that stuff and that's when I was doing the podcast and all I wanted to do was say the stuff and so I had to retreat I had to come away I had to cancel everything I said to my team don't expect anything from me for two years and then I took a month off in that two years and I did nothing and in that that was just so radical for me it was it felt like giving up but replenishing something inside of me that needed to be awakened which was like this little girl that just wants to have fun I hadn't let her have fun for so long and then when I took that break off I was in Japan and I came up with the idea of living deliciously because I was observing the buildings in Japan and all of the balconies in this building were facing north so they didn't get any sun and I was like why have they just my curiosity again just I was because I wasn't doing anything I was just walking around wondering and I was like why don't these buildings why aren't they facing the sun these balconies everyone would be so much happier if they could feel the sun in the morning and then I just started journaling about it and then I wrote down all of the things that I do to turn towards joy in my life and then that became ways I like to live deliciously and then I turned that into my last podcast episode I said to my podcast team I just want to do one where it's just me and I'm going to talk and then that's going to be it and then that was my biggest episode and and then I went on this whole journey the idea for the book came and it was something that that book idea would never have come to me if I'd have just kept slogging along performing the idea of Florence Given like a fucking caricature that I thought everyone wanted from me this good girl feminist that didn't dare say anything bad about the movement because that's not what good girls do and I didn't even know that was something I had in my head it was a massive fear block.

19:52Well rest is a radical choice these days that we believe is undeserved and for only perhaps certain people I mean, you've obviously crafted your way through this career that you're creating for yourself. I'm trying to create mine over here. We're all trying to do our own thing. And it's really scary to take a break from it and say, no, I'm going to press pause and not do anything. Yeah, because you just think, oh, someone else is going to take over or whatever, all the fear based stuff in there. But to do any of this stuff, to press pause, to be curious, to do things that make you feel joyful, you have to like yourself.

20:30and the biggest problem is most people out there a lot of the time maybe all of the time have a really shitty little voice in their head that actually is so ubiquitous that we don't even hear it because it's just it's the furniture it's there the whole time and I think that is such a huge problem for all of us and I count myself in that camp as well you know there are there are times where I know I'm like bitching about myself in my head or whatever and it's like why am I I know the rules why am I doing this oh yes it feels so hard to like yourself in this day and age how have you managed to especially going back to 14 year old Florence where you're excluded from the gang you don't feel good about yourself how do you go from that to not only I like myself but I love myself and I believe that I deserve good things I don't think many people believe they deserve good things there's such a big answer to that question and so many things flying through my head I want to touch on what you said about the rules so I know the rules I know that women are worth more than their bodies and yet every time I look in the mirror I still hate my belly and the fact that it rolls over my underwear I still buy weighing scales in January I still do this I still do this and that is how I lived for a very long time was knowing all of the right theory all the mindfulness all the things all the feminist theory about how women are worth more than what they look like.

21:58I knew it in my head, but I did not embody it. And that's what actually like living deliciously and creating a life that prioritizes my experience through my body. I didn't even intend for that to be the thing that made me fall in love with my body as this gift. I didn't even, I thought it was going to be, you know, one more feminist book, one more this, one more that, one more self-help book, but it wasn't one more book telling me to love my body. And those are so fucking valuable and they should be written. But there's that other part of embodying that practice and living deliciously for me.

22:32I didn't even realize until I finished the book. It's the opposite of self-objectification because you're not living a life where you're watching yourself from the outside of how do I look while I meditate in a yoga class still sucking in my stomach? what do I look like while I do this thing it's thinking how do I feel it's literally almost like placing the locus of control inside of you even with you know in the book I talk about romanticizing your life and creating a life that makes you that feels visually beautiful to you I wanted to write about that because I think we think it's so frivolous and it almost sounds silly especially as a feminist to like write a book about pretty little things and how they make you happy but the the the practice of creating a life that brings you joy and visually inspires you it's like you're you're focusing less on how you look and how the world around you looks instead and so inadvertently not thinking about how my life looks but prioritizing my experience of it like even just taking a breath and tuning into my senses allow me to experience the gift of having a body the gift of having a body that allows me to taste delicious food have a conversation with interesting women like you that's what our bodies are here for and I just thought about all the times where I've been on the beach or like not been on the beach because I was so anxious about letting my stomach rolls hang over my stomach and that's your life and in terms of people pleasing as well like there are dates I've been on that I didn't even want to go on because I was afraid of cancelling because I didn't want to hurt their feelings that's my life that's my life that is a day of my life that I will never get back because I wanted to control how I was perceived and I didn't want someone to think I was a bitch I didn't want someone to think I was selfish and so to go back to your point how do you get from that afraid 14 year old girl in school to this woman who now can confidently talk about the stuff and love her life more it is through doing those experiences anyway that's how I gain respect for myself and I think when we think of confidence I'll speak for myself I definitely thought of confidence as something that you were either born with or something you weren't I would watch other women I couldn't speak like this a few years ago I could only talk to my phone like this but now it's like a series of steps of pushing through the voice of fear and doing it anyway and when you do those small little scary things that is what builds the confidence required it's the other way around so I think I thought you had to you either had it or you didn't but confidence is a skill and you have to actually do the things when you're not ready and surviving rejection surviving someone not liking your art surviving someone making a weird comment about your outfit or walking into the office and someone says oh that's not like you or like you want to take up a new hobby like running or yoga or maybe you start meditating and you've got a mate who just thinks spirituality is so funny whatever it is doing those things and surviving them and keep shining keep expressing yourself keep doing the things you love that is what built confidence for me it's a self-trust even coming into this interview today you know before I ever do an interview I'm like oh my god what if they ask this what if this happens and my head might that voice of fear goes nuts in my head and then I remind myself oh but I can trust me home is in me I'm I can trust floss and that's because I've done scary things before and so I I think fake it till you make it is it's great advice and if you don't ever do anything brave that scares the shit out of you a little bit there's always going to be a voice in your head that has a track record of you always backing out when it gets scary so you have to actually do the things that scare you a little bit and when anyone listening to this who's like well that's just fucking frightening I can't public speak I can't even go on a date it scares the shit out of me it's baby steps it's tiny it could literally be my first thing at 14 when I was reading the mindfulness book was going to walk in the middle of a sunny field and laying in the field it was really embarrassing to me to be seen as like I don't know it's it's this thing I think we culturally think it's quite cringy for people to just enjoy their lives and like embrace like this enthusiasm right and um this voice of fear was in my head and it was like what if the girls from school walked past those dog walkers over there are going to fucking laugh at you and that mindfulness bit again it came in as like the second voice that was like you have to do things outside of your comfort zone otherwise you won't live your life you will live a life tethered by what other people may or may not think of you like puppeteered and so just snipping those and going into walk in the middle of the field it sounds tiny but it was the bravest thing I ever did because I ignored that voice of fear and that is how I have gone from being anxious and scared to walk into school every day I even feel that like that voice doesn't go anywhere you know I think that voice that was in my head afraid of going to see the girls at school who used to be my friends um doesn't go anywhere I can still walk past a group of girls innocently laughing in the middle of Oxford Street right where I was on my way today and there's still a voice in my head that goes they're laughing at you.

27:37That doesn't go anywhere. You just get better at ignoring it and not endorsing it as true.

28:07with Upwork. Go to Upwork.com now and find your freelance expert. That's U-P-W-O-R-K.com. Post a job for free and get started today. Dr. India Woods here. As a veterinarian, I demand a lot of my scrubs on the job. That's why I show up in FIGS. FIGS are made for the sometimes crazy situations I find myself in. It doesn't matter if I have to squat, sit, bend, or even chase after one of my patients. FIGS moves with me and keeps me comfortable in the highest pressure situations. Figs gives me one less thing to worry about. Get 15 % off your first order by visiting wearfigs.com and use code FIGSRX at checkout.

28:44That's wearfigs.com, code FIGSRX. Did you know that parents rank financial literacy as the number one most difficult life skill to teach? Meet Greenlight, the debit card and money app for families. With Greenlight, you can set up chores, automate allowance, and keep an eye on your kids' spending with real-time notifications. Kids learn to earn, save and spend wisely. And parents can rest easy knowing their kids are learning about money with guardrails in place. Sign up for Greenlight today at greenlight.com slash podcast. So many of us will have had a certain narrative almost put upon us, whether we like it or not.

29:23Whether it's one person in our lives, it could have been one of our parents or a teacher at school or someone that felt authoritative in their opinion, where they've said, oh, you're this, or you're not good at this, or why do you always do this? And those voices, they do stick around. And I think it takes a hell of a lot to overcome that and to think, no, like you say, I can trust myself. If someone said, oh, you know, you're a big mouth or whatever it is, that you've got to write that yourself. and I think our inclination is we think that someone else will do that for us someone will write it for us by saying oh no you're not you're you're this you're amazing you're that but actually that won't touch the sides we've got to do that and it's it's a bizarre intangible thing that we can't grasp because we've just got to do it in our heads and go no no I'm not going to listen to that voice I'm going to still do the scary thing or just be me which seems to be terrifying it is it's so terrifying and i was going to ask you have you found that you know you said it's this intangible thing in your head these voices i call them the inner council like they're just this inner council of people shouting at you every time i post online it will be like what will this person think what will this person think and it's the inner council of voices in my head trying to keep me small julia samuel calls it the shitty committee oh my god that's perfect so good yeah the shitty okay okay thanks julia samuels the shitty committee okay so good you know you just said it's intangible in your head have you found because i'm sure you've had some success right with overcoming that voice you must have to even even do your own podcast i know that you you left some big parts of the industry to do this did you feel that actually almost imagining it as stepping into a new pathway helped because that's what helps me i imagine it like like if this is the way i've always been going and it's intangible because you can't literally walk down a new road you have to mentally walk down a new road i think i've always realized it retrospectively i've gone oh I'm not being such an awful cow to myself as I used to be you know I'll have tiny snapshots where I go oh that's interesting but it's so funny because I think we'll all have our own certain triggers and we'll all have weak spots that feel tricky to overcome so I think certainly online negative commentary still really bothers me and literally last week I don't really get too much shit these days thank god I think I've sort of gone hi I'm quietly over here if you like what I'm doing, come find me.

31:54I'm not like, I'm on your telly again. I'm not doing that anymore. So it feels slightly gentler. But someone put a comment on my page last week that was just, you know, unwarranted. It was just shit for the sake of it. It was just, I could have taken it as sort of not being a personal attack. But I grabbed hold of it. And it ruined my day. And I actually ended up, and again, I haven't done this for years, I blocked this person. And that always feels to me a bit childish. like oh get over yourself like just let this person say their piece and ignore it but I thought nope I'm gonna fucking block them yeah I don't want to hear what they've got to say about me they can go and be miserable somewhere else and I felt kind of awful about it I didn't feel like self-righteous I kind of felt really crap about it afterwards and it did ruin my day now I don't know this person I don't know what they've got going on they certainly don't know me they know like a teeny fraction of the bit that I put of myself out there but it still ruined my day and And I think the problem is, and I don't know if this is a universal thing that we all think like this, but in those moments, it could be someone on Instagram, someone in my life.

32:58When they say something negative, there's a little bit of me that goes, yeah, they're right. Yeah, they're right. You are, you're a shitty person or you're whatever it is that they've said. Yeah. That bit feels like a deep level of sinister activity. It's like they found out. They found out. This one found out. They get that horrible dark side of me. And of course, we've all got a dark side and we've all got a side that's capable of such beauty and generosity. And we've all got that. Just some express one side more than the other. But how do you negate that? That bit that goes, they're right. Yeah.

33:36Well, again, I think in terms of negating that part, it is, again, the separation of the voice. That doesn't mean it's not still going to hurt. And it's been a while, actually, since I felt that way that you're describing. but it used to happen so frequently. And I think the only way that I've been able to handle that is because I can't handle that. I can't handle it. I know what it does to me is literally deleting Instagram when I post or in the mornings, like Instagram just cannot be on my phone because those, especially first thing in the morning, those voices, if they come in, again, the inner council, especially if you have a platform like us, it is thousands of people's voices and their input.

34:20So in terms of the boundary setting, let's not put so much pressure on ourselves to handle that because that is nuts and it is going to eat away at you. And I don't think we are weak or what's the opposite of being resilient? Like, yeah, weak, I think it's a pretty good word. I think weak. Yeah, it's I don't think we are. I don't think we should consider ourselves weak for not being able to handle that. it's horrible and the person almost always does it with malicious intent they actually want to create and ruin your day as well and yeah it sucks and it and it does affect me as well so i would say the only thing i've been able to do is like literally not look at that kind of stuff yeah even blocking websites blocking websites on my phone on my laptop um so i can't even see can't even see anything yeah it's sensible because i think we're all drawn to look at horrible things weirdly we kind of want to self-punish and no i must look at it and see and i must seek out awful things going on in the world you said though didn't you um what if they're right what if this person is right the thing that i have um only just been able to embody and not just have in my head uh you know everyone can say like fuck the haters forget the haters forget them they're just a voice in your head right and people can say that right you can say that but the way I've had like glimpses of actually feeling that yeah and it's not even just a little bit of self-talk in my head I've actually felt almost it's so weird it goes beyond feeling annoyed at them and actually actually and I'm not just saying this actually feeling love for that person because I wouldn't want their mindset I wouldn't want their life and in a weird way this might be really fucked up but if they've tried to make me feel small even if it's just on the level of my ego I can restore that by reminding myself that I would not want their life or mindset because I wouldn't hang around with someone I wouldn't have a mate in my circle that comments that shit on people's videos and that even if it's just on the level of the ego I don't give a shit it makes me feel better it boosts me up again I agree all right you we choose people that feel like-minded and interesting to hang out with and people that restores the power for me yeah that's a really good thing but I think um I don't mean if even if that sounds like egoic in terms of I only want these people around me I mean in terms of getting over that mean comment so even if it's just not like it's not on like a deeper spiritual level of not giving a fuck it's like the ego I feel better because I can be like, well, why would I even, this person doesn't even know me, like you said, Fern.

37:10They don't even know you. They see the highlight reel of your life and snippets of things that you say that are just small within a large context of a conversation. Why would I give validity to this person and discredit my own opinion of myself? I have the whole archive of my life and I can't expect other people to know that. It's almost easier to choose to feel shit because we kind of know what we're getting there. We're like, oh, well, this hurts. I'm just going to feel really shit about myself. And I'm going to let that horrible voice really kick in now because this is what I always do. And it's sort of a comfort to it.

37:43Whereas actually choosing to ignore that or block it or whatever you want to do and actually go, no, I like myself. I'm going to feel good in this moment is weird for us. Yes. How awful. But it's a weird choice. And we're unused to the feelings. they feel really terrifying to feel okay in the face of someone saying something awful about us no no because because then then there would be something to worry about right if you weren't afraid of people saying things i think those are the only people that probably can just like really not give a fuck about it is the people who yeah maybe there's like something going on there that's like not great like they don't have empathy right yeah if you're not feeling at least like a little bit oh i could never send a comment like that there's just no i wouldn't sleep i would lay awake all night feeling so awful like there's just no way yeah i think in my head but i'm not going to say them out loud yeah i'm not a perfect person i could definitely think something shitty about someone but i would never feel the need if i didn't know them to say something yeah publicly i i also i also think it's like even like talking to women like you who also experience this it depersonalizes that shit yeah so it's not about florence it's not about fern it's this is what happens to women who share themselves it's the cost you have to pay and deep as it it sucks and I really wish it wasn't that way but I've been through it so many times now on a grand scale on a small scale even within friendships and knowing that it's just I speak to every time I meet another woman in the industry it's like a breath of fresh air and kind of sucks also but knowing that I'm not alone it happens to every single one of us and it's not personal it's just part of the journey And I think depersonalizing it like that allows me to keep showing up and keep sharing myself.

39:27Because like I said at the beginning, I have experienced the opposite. I have made myself smaller. A comment like that, if I, you know, people sharing their art these days online or sharing their opinions, a comment like that could literally mean they never post another video again. And so if you take it personally, this person that wants to shrink you, they will succeed. Yeah. And we do it to everyone. It's like, especially with women, it's this cultural thing of like whack-a-mole. Yeah. One comes up, she's doing great. No, you don't. We smack her down again. Oh, I've been there, yeah. And it's just pop, pop, pop, pop.

39:56Oh, yeah. It's not her turn off. I shrunk to like literally, I mean, I don't really do TV anymore. It doesn't feel safe to me to be in that environment. And I'm not in a rush to try and rectify that. I feel really happy doing what I'm doing. But I've definitely had moments like in my sort of mid-30s where I just thought, I'd like to really disappear down to nothing. And then luckily I've created what feels like a really nice sort of safe arena to keep doing what I enjoy doing. But I think it is really hard and it feels like it's getting more brutal. And like you, I'm a very enthusiastic person.

40:28You wrote this bit in the book that's like, I love people and places and like you fall in love with things. I'm the same. I fall in love with all sorts of different things every day. I get so excited and like a childlike energy about things. And there was a moment probably more in my 20s where I thought, this is not good. I've got to get rid of this because I'm looking at all these people around me. And I, you know, I was on TV in that era where they were a real cool gang. And you can probably think of who these people are. I mean, I don't know half of them. I'm sure they're lovely, but they were cool.

40:57Cool. Very detached and very unbothered about anything and just really cool and wearing cool clothes. And I was like, like wearing wacky things and being mad and shouting. And, you know, when Youngblood came on the podcast, I was like, I'd never told him this, but I was like, when I first saw you, I was like, oh, my God, that's what I felt like in my 20s. but I pushed it all down like this kind of energy and loudness and whatever and I think I'm I'm pretty I've come to terms with the fact that I'm like that naturally and I'm and I'm cool with it now but back in my 20s I longed to feel a certain disassociation with what was going around me so I didn't feel so excitable and that leads us on to talking about cringe this cringe factor and that people are so quick to go oh my god that's so cringe I mean my children say it to me quite often I can deal with that.

41:48But when it's on a bigger scale, that level of cringe or embarrassment that we feel that other people project onto us, you dive deeply into this subject matter. It's something I've seen you post about on Instagram. You feel really passionate about us just being ourselves and not cringing at ourselves, not allowing other people to tell us that we are cringeworthy. Talk to me about this a bit more. Well, I think that makes me so happy also to hear that you're just owning your self-expression and your enthusiasm. Oh, yeah. The world needs more of it. And also, it's so feminine. And there was part of me as, you know, I wrote my first book, Women Don't Know You Pretty.

42:26And I had no idea what I was getting into entering the book world. And I kind of realized over time that I would always be defending myself to be taken seriously as an author because I'm so feminine and silly. I'd never seen example in my head, like the idea of a writer and an author was so stoic, serious, almost hated writing. Like all the authors I'd heard talk about, they're like, oh, I hate writing books, but I just have to do it. And I'm like, I love getting up my laptop. I love setting up the scene. Yes, it's hard. Oh, my God, it's writing hard. But I love it. It is my favorite vehicle for self-expression.

42:59And I couldn't relate to these people. And so I thought there was something wrong with me for being feminine and vibrant and gushy and delighted. and there was also this little defensive annoying part of me also that wanted everyone to know that I do write my own books and that's another thing in the industry where people assume that and I was just but I'd taken on those annoying voices in my head and validated them by shrinking by becoming I literally started to wear all black fan I didn't wear I can't even imagine I can't even imagine it and I just I would like I showed up to a meeting with my book agent a couple years ago in a hoodie just completely hidden and she was she cried she was like where's floss gone and I I'd completely shrunk little raisin just completely shrunk I was so just didn't like being perceived and I I didn't feel like I could I could handle the um the attention and and people anyway I had completely shrunk myself and so the cringe thing right what cringe is that this this cringe at our silliness or our self-expression is it's this barrier in our heads where it's a protection mechanism because to stand out historically meant you might be mauled by a fucking predator if you stood out and you're isolated from the tribe you don't have their protection anymore you could die you don't have the food you don't have the resources so it is this almost um ancient part of our brains that does want to belong and that's very natural and we shouldn't beat ourselves up for it but we don't need that you can be yourself you can express yourself and for me it's not that you know you you said oh people shouldn't cringe at us we can't control that no i cannot control whether people think i'm embarrassing whether people do think i'm silly whether people don't take my book seriously because they're covered in pink i can't control that and the only way that i could maybe control that is to completely dilute my self-expression that is the only way and I'm done paying that price now and I like I said to you at the beginning I love I didn't know what self-love was until I started writing this book because it has been so it's my bravest writing yet and everything I've been saying on social media also over the last year I've been frightened to say fucking all of it and I did it anyway and now I actually respect myself even with like posting videos of me getting ready and dancing online and sharing those videos thank you and and sharing my my self expression has been again pushing forward that cringe barrier and you almost you validate that you are cringy if you if you take that video down I can't control I okay so again a values shift I actually value more that other people are maybe slightly cringing at my self-expression as opposed to them accepting it now is that because they would like to feel the same and they're scared so cringe is cringe cringing or whatever that even is that wriggly feeling you get in your body maybe when you watch someone maybe you watch a couple post a lovey video on instagram right and you something and you goes and you just cringe right or you see a woman expressing herself or you see a woman singing or dancing anything that's kind of out of the the social code of norms whatever anything that makes you cringe that is a limit within you that is a line that you have found within yourself that you have always been told not to cross it is not their line and so when you shame other people and you say that's cringe you just reveal your own barriers how interesting so when i when i dance online or whatever to other women that fucking love expressing themselves they see that and they go that's brilliant or to women who maybe don't have that courage but know they want to they take it as a permission slip to step over that line right so you can actually cringe at people and not allow it to make you become a bit of an arsehole and be oh that's so cringe you can also see it as an invitation to step over that line and go oh my god thank god someone else is doing it oh yeah thank god this person's talking about this thing so it's just to me cringing it's just this social enforced barrier and if you go back it's normally like you said earlier a teacher a parent at school that said don't be loud don't do this so when you hop on social media or you're in public and you see a woman without those same lines that confine you something in you gets pissed off that she gives herself permission to do it and I think a lot of the time when we feel envy of other women we don't even envy her we envy the permission she gives herself or we envy the fact that she doesn't have that line in her head that tells her to stop and we also don't know maybe she does have that that shaming in her head but she crosses over it anyway and so I think if we can identify that cringe or that envy or that you know I hear people say about me and other women in the media I just don't like her I don't know why why ask yourself oh I've had that one oh yeah all the time and it's funny because also it makes that the person saying it sounds almost really clever and intuitive I just don't got a feeling yeah yeah yeah and it's like there's I've done nothing I've just been myself um why do we care so much about being liked what is this right like this it fascinates me so massively because it's been such a big part of my life if I've said this on the podcast before please tell me someone but I had someone say to me recently um we're having a really great chat yeah and they said how important is it to you that I like you?

48:34And I cried. I actually cried. I was like, oh, it really matters. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It really, and I don't know why, but it really, really, really matters. And it was so game-changing to actually be cognizant of how I was acting with this person because I really wanted them to like me. And I think we all do. We don't want to be excluded. We want to feel part of something, but usually to our detriment. a minute and I think going back to cringe the other thing that stops us from doing things that could be perceived as cringy or like or we're pushing through barriers and we're doing new things yes is for females specifically to want to come across um as a person that can be taken seriously my work is taken seriously I'm a very serious person why do we want to be taken seriously what in the depths of our being needs us to be taken seriously yeah because I've had that one I've thought oh god I need to be really taken seriously because I used to be a kids tv presenter so I need to be taken really seriously and it's like why yeah why is that so important I'm taken seriously even that question is unbelievably liberating why and then you just remove this false ceiling in your head of needing to be taken seriously and suddenly nothing's wrong you get to be yourself um I I don't I'm not going to sit here and pretend I have the answer to why do we need to be taken seriously um but i think it's something about needing to be validated and recognized and i can't even get into why we need to feel validated and recognized but what probably because women haven't been taken seriously yeah well it's like it's a very like masculine energy fueled world and not to mention also like we really love things that we can tangibly point to and and the awards and all that kind of stuff that is that will there's an element of needing to be taken I'll think about for me when I need to be taken seriously I don't like to be made to feel small and I don't like it when people undermine me and my work because who would who would who would who would want to be undermined um and I think for me like even my first book it was so pink it was so it like my new book is also very pink but my first book was very pink and it meant that a lot of people actually think that like it's cool to like hate a Florence Given book because they are pink and self-expressive right but I now find I love it because my books they're very like Trojan horse you know I get a lot of women who read my books because they're pretty and then they come out the other end and they've divorced their abusive husband like they literally at my book signings I get this they're like I bought your book from Tesco because it was pretty and I left my abusive husband by the end of it and I actually don't mind being undermined anymore because I slip in to new audiences who don't think I think the word feminist can be quite scary maybe to women who have not been exposed to feminist theory I love that I get to reach people who don't think those things are for them and can also be empowered by those things right and what you said about um that person said do you need me to like you um I think it's I I spent my whole childhood teenage life early adulthood um chasing the approval of women who didn't like me and it was always women with men I feel like it's a lot easier for me to bat away their opinions be like oh you just don't get it you're a man right especially because my work is so women-centric if men don't get my work it's so easy for me to just go oh you don't get it you're a man this wasn't for you anyway but women if women don't like me it's like it cuts me so deep and the way I used to respond to that urge for women to like me um was to become exactly what I think she needed me to be which was often smaller than her yeah less expressive than her not as intellectual as her I would just make myself whatever she needed me to be to like me and that happened in my early female friendships and it kind of creates this um illusion of a relationship that you have with a woman because she only likes you if you remain in your cage if you remain small the mental cage right and um that my it almost sounds quite brutal to to say um I talk about this a lot online and it's scary every time I talk about it especially when I'm talking about the women and women stuff because it to even speak it's like this unspeakable subject to even talk and give language to the ways that women hurt one another kind of feels like you're turning your back on the sisterhood it feels like you are trashing other women but it's not it always comes from this place for me of like I love us and we need to get our shit together we need to look at the ways that we hurt one another because who do you think's thriving because of it you know patriarchy doesn't even have to get its hands dirty anymore it sits back and it watches us fight over each other for the scraps that the the industry or or whatever even if it's like attention from a guy whatever it is we fight over their scraps and hate each other for it and I when it comes to needing other women to like me that little bit in me hasn't gone anywhere I just no longer take it personally again and I know it's not about me I know that it's not about me and I know that it's about women collectively have all been taught to be small since young even the way we sit be small be small this have small ambitions have a small waist small thighs small everything and so when we see a woman whether it's me or yourself or the latest pop star or someone in the press and we just go who does she think she is it's because we were taught to be small and something in us can't fucking stand it again watching another woman give herself permission and now that I've had that realization I can almost depersonalize when women don't like me and also I'm not for everyone no one is for everyone I don't expect everyone to be about what I'm about that's okay and um god I would honestly say my biggest part of expanding into floss like I look in the mirror now and I just think there she is like this is who I was always meant to be and the version of floss that I used to kind of uh exude and express it was always in a way where I would be self-expressive but not too much not so I didn't intimidate the women around me or like a dimmable light switch that I had inside me that I thought other people got to control.

55:24But I'm the only one who can make me small. I'm the only one in the face of shame, rumours being spread, people saying things to me, people even just not taking me seriously. I'm the only one that can actually make myself smaller and turn on that dimmable switch. I can choose in that moment to keep shining. It just takes a lot of courage. Full what? Yeah, exactly. Full what, babe. um for people listening to this who feel like utter shit at the moment what is the first step to living deliciously I would say okay to the woman who is literally feeling like shit doesn't want to get out of bed can't even muster the energy um maybe you've lost that spark that you used to have and that lust for life like Fern was saying abandoning that playfulness inside of you and maybe you even look at women like me and Fern and you're like oh I missed that feeling or maybe you're inspired whatever it is if you're in that place you've got to do something that's it's the hardest thing to do and the simplest thing to do and it's do something tiny that feels really selfish or childish even and that is to express yourself and do something that brings you joy and does not produce anything it does not produce a tangible result so whether that is even listening to music when I was in that pit when I was in my bed didn't want to get out and anything that people asked of me I would be like yeah that's fine I'll do that and I'd go and scream on my pillows afterwards because I was just so overwhelmed when I was in that burnt out place all I actually needed to do was to carve five minutes that felt like they belonged to me because when like I can't imagine mums must feel this times fucking 10 with with raising children but when people are always asking you for things oh yeah right I can't even imagine being a mum and and you've got all these people asking you for things and it feels like your life literally doesn't belong to you and you're just doing everything and you're and a whole year or two or three could pass and you look back and you're like I did not forge any authentic choices for myself because I just said I had I was just going with the flow it's gonna sound silly and it's gonna feel pointless but doing five minutes of something that reminds you that your life belongs to you whether that is going for a walk even if you can wake up five minutes earlier and be up physically up before anyone else wakes up I don't know what that looks like to you for me that was waking up earlier um so that I you know before the emails come in before I start to talk to my assistant and my team and all of this you know important stuff which actually you could take it with a an air of playfulness um but it doesn't feel like it when people are asking things from you it's doing those tiny little baby steps even if that's like creating a small gap in your day like not bringing your phone to the toilet so you can have like mental it's the hardest thing to do also because if you have been on it all day you want to go on your phone on toilet because that feels like your claim about your time but actually you're just filling your brain with more clutter you could see I don't know someone getting married someone's had a baby while you're on the toilet and walk out that toilet comparing yourself to where other people are at in life and you just went for a piss and you've come out feeling even worse because you've opened this portal that is so it's so unnatural the portal of the internet like I was shopping with a friend a few months ago and we were just you know going in and out charity shops and stuff and I stood out of the shop and while I was waiting for her instinctively got out my phone just filling that gap of waiting for my friend I could have stared at the trees I could have stared at the buses I could have mindfully observed the goings-on around me and actually taken that mental pause but I got out my phone and I saw something on social media that instantly comparison mode and nothing has actually happened I've just stepped outside the shop and suddenly my friends come out and she's gone oh you're okay your energy shifted just because I saw something online I don't like giving that and for that reason that's why instagram can't be on my phone anymore but back to taking control of your life right you're in that place what small thing can you do and it's always saying no to something and you can say no without actually saying no to someone saying no could look like deleting instagram off your phone and and creating that you literally close a portal to the most anxiety-inducing thing.

59:47So you're feeling really shit and someone says, do you want to go for lunch? Because that's a tricky one because you want to say no and you think, I don't want to see another human. But actually, how much do you push yourself out of that comfort zone to actually try something new? I love experimenting and I'm less of a, what do you call it? I'm less of a perfectionist when it comes to how I respond to those things. So in that situation where someone offers me for lunch and I'm so exhausted, sometimes I will agree to the lunch because I know that I just need to see a person. Sometimes I need to see my bestie and be really fucking vulnerable and actually not shelter myself away in my bedroom and cry in her arms and feel like I can still be loved in my mess.

1:00:33Sometimes that is what's going to pick me up. And then sometimes it is saying I need to sleep an extra hour. It's telling people and being really honest. and either way there is a vulnerability in that I find it really hard to be seen um because I'm like the the big sister friend uh in like almost every role in my life big sister like I've kind of made a career out of it as well right and it's um it's always been very hard for me to let other people help me and so for me in that moment it would be going to see the friend and letting people see me in my mess also um yeah just letting people see you as you are yeah real you the authentic you not the shiny shiny floss the floss that's on all the time um and yeah letting myself be to finish where is your happy place so there's an hour before the sun rises which obviously depending on the time of the year that's like i don't know it could be four to five a.m in the summer but currently that's like seven a.m i think this one the sun rises but there's an hour where the sky is this beautiful shade of blue especially if there's no clouds and I look out my window and it's the closest I feel to some form of truth something higher than me something bigger than me something that feels untouchable and it's like this completely sacred hour of the day where the streets of London are quiet the birds haven't they're just starting to sing and the world feels like it belongs to me and that that is my happy place wherever I am in the world where the world feels like it belongs to me and then going for a walk in that as well it's so simple um but I live near a park and so I love going for those walks that just makes me the happiest and um sunday morning also would be like the best time to experience that where everyone else is a lot slower people are so much kinder um that would be my happy place and then also um some kind of herbal tea in my hands just feels it really grounding and i just feel i just feel so abundant i feel rich in time i feel like i don't have to be anywhere um yeah that's my happy place mine is the same but the herbal tea is a very strong coffee yes yeah yeah yeah i go i I go for my walk to get mine.

1:02:57That's like my little treat. That also just, it gets me out of the house every single day. But yeah, I like to start the day with a herbal tea. It just feels so beautiful. Gorgeous. Well, it's been so lovely. It's been absolutely delicious talking to you. Oh, thank you so much. Florence, thank you so much. Thank you.

1:03:17Oh, Florence, I love that. Even though I could quite literally be your mum, you've taught me a hell of a lot there. Florence's book, Women Living Deliciously, is out right now. Now, do you want some more chat about women learning to shamelessly express themselves? If so, you absolutely have to listen to Paloma Faith's episode. It's still one of my absolute favourites. It's so powerful. It's a really punchy one about the myth of women having it all, but actually just totally exhausting ourselves, essentially. And Beverly Knight, that's a beautiful one. She's all about living unapologetically as herself.

1:03:52It's so beautiful. alright I want to say such a big thank you again to beautiful pink head Florence probably am going to copy her and dye my hair pink to the producer Anushka Tate at Happy Play Studios and to you you delicious lot

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