Helen Glover on progress over perfection: shift your perspective on success

0:28Hello and a massive welcome to Happy Place. best giving it a go showing up being there is sometimes enough and just kind of at some point you have to trust you'll emerge in just that tiny bit closer to your goal it's so much better to try and fail than to never know how you all doing i hope you're good i really need to start christmas shopping i don't know what's happened to me this year normally i'm so organized and i start sort of mid-october i am in a right tis i haven't done anything i've bought like two presents i don't even know who they're for. And I keep doing that thing of looking online and then I end up buying myself a pair of trainers I don't need and nothing for anyone else.

1:07So that's becoming problematic. I'm going to get on it. I'm going to get organised. But look, wherever you're at with it, it's all going to be fine. It's all going to come out in the wash. We're going to be all right. We've got this. We've got this. And I am really up for a mulled wine. So that's going to help ease the pain of it all too. So on to today's podcast, which I'm really excited about because Helen is someone that I hugely admire. She's a two-time Olympic champion, triple world champion and a quadruple European champion in rowing. At Tokyo in 2020, Helen was the first mum to represent Great Britain in rowing at an Olympic Games.

1:45That is a huge moment in the history of a sport. It's massive. She's super passionate about pushing back on the perception that age, really important one or parenthood should be a barrier in anything you're trying to achieve. I'm really excited for you to hear her talk about that because it's bloody important. But the thing is success as an elite athlete wasn't necessarily part of her life plan. In fact, rowing in general wasn't really part of the plan at all. In her words, Helen couldn't have been further from an Olympian when she started training. That is something I was really interested in, giving things a go and not giving up because I think most of us, I'm definitely talking for myself here, when we try something new, if we're not good at it, we think, yeah, sod that, I'm out, I don't want to do it.

2:29But Helen didn't do that and I'm really intrigued as to why and how. Also just chatting about motherhood, I know that many of you that listen will have kids and will find the juggle really difficult, getting the balance almost impossible and also losing parts of yourself during parenthood, which is extremely common, but probably not talked about enough, where we don't do things as frequently that we're really passionate about because there isn't time, but also we feel stretched just emotionally and physically and how you can try and bridge the two, parenting and being very passionate about something.

3:05So I'm really excited for you to hear that too. The market's uncertain, revenues tied and hiring on hold. That's why results driven companies are using Upwork to keep work moving. Go to Upwork.com today and start hiring proven freelance talent fast. No bulky overhead. No rigid long-term contracts. Just the right expert right when you need them. Work smarter and faster with Upwork. Go to Upwork.com now and find your freelance expert. That's U-P-W-O-R-K dot com. Post a job for free and get started today. If you're a smoker or vapor ready to make a change, you really only need one good reason. But with Zinn Nicotine Pouches, you'll discover many good reasons.

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5:09Right, let's crack on with the show then. and I just noticed that I'd turned up to meet Helen a little bit messy. So that was an excellent start to the day.

5:37I've got like some sort of toothpaste, something on my jumper. but that's not a good start. Crikey, that's me rushing out the door. Hello, Helen. Hi. I'm so excited to have you on the podcast. Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here. It feels like a long time coming. I've wanted to chat to you for a long time about everything you've done and achieved and continue to juggle. Let's start with this year because you've had an insane year. Have your feet touched the ground yet? I think just about they've just touched the ground now the kids have gone to school I kind of managed to look back and think what on earth has just happened and how did how did that just happen so yeah just just now just this last couple of weeks I think it started to really settle in I mean that's it because like after the Olympics you were just being a mum the next day like there's no oh I'm gonna have a week where I just chill and I think about everything that I've just been through with training and the actual Olympics you're just then making breakfast and you're straight into the rhythm of being a mum it's crazy which weirdly helps me do you think yeah I think when I look back to London and Rio and those Olympics the next day or the next moment that you're back home and doing the dishes it's just this nothingness and everyone thinks that your life changes the moment you win an Olympic medal or something and and actually the essence of you and what your life is is exactly the same.

7:01And so to have the kids and have to be mum and to not be the most important person in the room because my kids are, it's just really actually grounding and really important for me. They don't care if you've won a medal or not. They're like, get me the cereal now. Yeah, if their Weetabix isn't done right, you know about it. We've all been there. I heard you interview just before Paris and you said that you really wanted a medal. You were quite clear about that. Otherwise, why are you doing it? You wanted to come back with a medal. You came back with a silver. what was that feeling was it a contentment was it a relief what were you feeling probably a bit of both I think I already always pictured my kids on the finish line and being there and and getting out my boat and standing on the podium in front of them and if I hadn't had that moment I think I would have just been really devastated because I think when I got to Tokyo it was all about getting there as a mum and proving a point and that point had been proven that had been done I really wanted to show that it wasn't just getting there it was getting there and being good enough and so yeah it was definitely a lot of relief and kind of but also just this real satisfaction that I'd shared this moment with them it's so amazing I mean imagine when they're sort of 18 you can sit back and watch it together as a family like I'm projecting quite far into the future there but it's so special I think so I mean we made the mistake though of in the same week they also they went to Disneyland.

8:24Oh, wow. And so when they got back home, everyone was like, how was it, kids? And they were like, it was amazing. The rides were so good. And they were like, no, watching your mum at the Olympics? How was that? Well, you're just their mum, aren't you? That's it. It's always the most grounding thing is that you're just their mum. Yeah, exactly. And Mickey Mouse comes first in this occasion. Always. Always. I mean, you've had a real windy path to get to where you are today. In terms of elite sport, you started rowing quite late. You were 21 when you discovered it. When you first got in a boat, was there this sort of affinity that you instantly felt with the sport?

9:00Not really, no. I mean, when you first would have seen me, I looked like I was doing a totally different sport. But the way I got into it was through Talent ID. So when London had been given the Games, they did a big Talent ID drive. It was really for tall people. So handball, volleyball and rowing helps have long levers. And I was kind of tested and directed towards rowing. and it was four years before the Games and I remember thinking this is probably something that's not going to go anywhere. I'm probably going to be rubbish at this but I it was the one time in my life that I was fully prepared.

9:35I realised I think I'd never actually give my all to anything. I'd never fully just immersed myself in something to be the best I can be. I'd really coasted through quite a lot of things in life and I probably had the maturity kind of coming out of my teens and going right if if you're gonna do it it has to be now and so I didn't care if I enjoyed it I didn't care if I started off any good at it but I was going to give it my all that's such an interesting gear change because would you say like your personality is all or nothing naturally I think it is now but it probably wasn't before I met rowing but how interesting so I think most of us assume that you turn up in the world and you have a set of traits that see you through life but actually you've cultivated that feeling of all or nothing I'm all in on this I think so I think there were some things that were really like intrinsically there my competitiveness I had a real grit to me when I was younger I do remember vividly kind of doing cross-country on rainy days and or swimming gala's where I was really fiercely competitive and I wanted to train hard and do these things but the all or nothing mentality of really sticking at something and doing everything that needed to be done to be good at it.

10:47I don't think I really did until I found rowing. And now I'm probably much better at that. Now, if I put my mind to something, I know I have the tools to go ahead and do it. How do you stick at something that you're not instantly good at? Because I think most of the time when we start a new hobby, or we want to try something for the first time, if we're not kind of okay at it straight away, where you think, fuck that, I'm out. I don't want to do that. This is a waste of time. How do you push through that barrier of, I'm just going to see this through? I have it, for instance, with learning a language.

11:22I'm desperate to learn Spanish. And I get to a certain point and I think, oh, I can't do all of the masculine, feminine stuff and the different you want, I want, they want. I'm out. I'm done. And I can't persevere. What gets you through that bit? That's so true. I think for me, there were two things. one it was the people around me I was because I went through this system I was really lucky that I ended up with a coach who believed in me right I was selected for that reason he saw potential in me when I couldn't see it in myself and so Paul my first coach when I said to him I just think I'm going to be a bit rubbish I'm I'm not the same as the other girls I'm this I'm that and he he just had this underlying belief that I could get there um so the people around you is really important But the other thing that I really, I think I take into life with me is it's so much better to try and fail than to never know.

12:13And I just think actually the end result doesn't matter as much as being able to look yourself in the mirror and go, I gave that a really good go. yeah that's a tough one isn't it because I think you've got to have such mental resilience to keep that in mind when you're having a crappy day when everything's going a bit wrong and you just think what am I doing and there's a temptation to maybe feel a bit lost in that if you're not seeing direct results you're not getting the results that you want I think it's hard to to stay on that it's a very strict path that you've got to follow especially in sport yeah definitely and I think that's where people need to be really kind to themselves is that it doesn't always have to look from the outside like this linear progress like you're always seeing outcomes and results and i think if you can finish the day and know that you've given it your best even if you haven't seen through every everything that you hope to achieve that day if you've not even given it your best giving it a go showing up sometimes that sometimes just turning up that day is is enough Sometimes average is enough.

13:14It's really hard to accept that. I hate accepting that one. I'm like, but I wanted it to be perfect. Average is okay. Yeah, just staying on that line, staying on that treadmill, just being there is sometimes enough. And just kind of at some point, at some point you have to trust that you'll emerge in just that tiny bit closer to your goal. And it will happen. Whatever your goal is, it will happen. You will make that small step. But I think if you can surround yourself with people who are a positive influence, that's always going to be a really important step. Yeah, I need someone who believes I can speak Spanish in my life.

13:49Yeah. So at what point in this four year period leading up to London, did you think we could be with a chance here? It was about two years out. So for the first two years, I couldn't have been further from an Olympian. I was working as a PE teacher at the time to fund my training. It was it was so hard. And I look back now and I think that was definitely the hardest bit of that early part of my career. I was trying to beat girls on the team who were in full-time training and I was trying to juggle my teaching at the same time. And then I met Heather Stanning, who was my pair's partner, and we just clicked really well together.

14:29And two years out from the Olympics, we started rowing together, went to a world championships and honestly surprised everyone, including ourselves, by winning a silver medal. And from that point on, we were just on this mission. we couldn't quite believe that it was happening to us but it clicked it worked and we didn't leave that combination and so when we were selected together for 2012 we were suddenly favorites in our event to go and win the gold medal at home games and so very quickly our trajectory had just totally changed it's incredible I mean you went into that Olympics pretty anonymous yeah which you don't have the luxury of these days you were flag bearer this time around all eyes on you was it liberating going in having no one really looking at what you were doing that yes there's maybe some expectations from you know the the team gb and your coaches everyone knowing your potential but to the wider audience people don't know who you are what you're capable of is that freeing oh and it was so intentional as well we if any interviews came our way we turned down we we just you know you can only be an underdog once and so we wanted to go into it as the underdogs.

15:41And like you say, really, the only people who had expectation of us were the people who know about rowing. And it was that small bubble of people who follow the sport and who knew that we were on a winning streak. But actually, going into a home games, we had enough pressure as it was. And so it just felt it just felt about right, you know, going in with a little bit of pressure, but mainly excitement. And I mean, that definitely changed when we came up to the day of our final on day five, because we hadn't won as a team GB, we hadn't won a gold medal. and so going into it knowing that we were hoping to be the first gold for Team GB we were just hoping to kind of just get away with it you know just just race hopefully win and just be one of many and at that point it hadn't happened so the pressure definitely shifted on that morning because we realized that people were being told to tune in were being pushed our direction to watch for the first gold and so that that definitely we kind of wanted to be like no we're doing this quietly remember oh my god but does that then give you an extra surge of motivation and strength to get the gold or is it are there points where it's just so overwhelming that you know how when you're on that start line and you know that people are tuning in you know that there's this pressure that you could be the first home gold medal how the bloody hell do you get in the headspace where you're just rowing and you just block that out yeah so we definitely rather than kind of stepping into it we retracted from the reality of the Olympic Games.

17:07So we convinced ourselves so fully that this was not the Olympic Games. The last thing our coach said to us before we went on the water was, this is just another race. You're racing the same girls in the same boat, just on a piece of water. Just go and race. And in that moment, it really held my headspace. It normalised the situation totally for me. But when I finished the race, I couldn't call myself Olympic champion. I had just done another race. I hadn't raced in an Olympic final. I did not believe it because I had so fully convinced myself it was just another race. And I remember that whole Olympic Games, the rest of the Olympic Games, just being like this out of body experience, just feeling like I can't adjust.

17:50I could not call myself Olympic champion for about six months afterwards. Six months? Yeah. I remember the moment it hit me. I just remember it really vividly. I was sat on the panel for a question of sport and they played the titles and they kind of announced me as Olympic champion. And for some reason, I think because I've watched it since I was little, that was the moment where I went, they're talking about me. And it was, yeah, it was around Christmas time. So it must have been about six months after the Games. And it just hit me that I was an Olympic champion. But I had normalised the situation so much.

18:21It's what I needed to do, though. It was how I was going to cope. I think it's a healthy thing to do because, like you said right at the start of this chat, in ways, nothing changes. You're doing the washing up the next day. And yes, you have that moment of euphoria. You've won the first gold medal in a home Olympic Games. But there is still washing to be done and there is still food to be bought in the supermarket. And life does go on. And I think, I don't know how you're meant to cope with that, but obviously your way was just to go, it's too surreal to process. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I guess it's avoidance.

18:54But I think also because my route in had been so quick as well, I was still processing the fact that I was a rower and an Olympian and then Olympic champion in such a small space of time. So my transition from London to Rio was really different in that. I had so much more time to process what I was and what I was hoping to achieve. And so I had definitely compartmentalised it all and kind of sorted it all in my brain by the time I'd got to Rio. And do you celebrate things more now? So when you've got a gold in Rio, for instance, were you able to actually really enjoy that moment and go, yes, a gold medal in my hands?

19:33Exactly. Yeah. So that just I felt present. I felt like I'd earned it. I felt like it belonged to me because I just, yeah, I had fully kind of given myself to that experience. and allowed myself to believe that that was me in that moment rather than kind of avoiding those feelings. It definitely made the run up to Rio far less enjoyable. I felt the pressure so much more. I really didn't enjoy the experience of being out in Rio in the build-up with the pressure, with the expectation, with the language around the way we were racing because, again, we were favourites and it was, the language was almost as if we didn't need to race because we had already won.

20:12And it was like anyone could beat us. When you're on the start line, you're so vulnerable. You don't get a head start just because you won the last race. And so I found myself getting really frustrated with the language used around us. And actually, it was lovely and it was really complimentary. But I was like, stop talking like that. Make people believe that we could lose because we could. And I didn't like that. I felt like we were being set up for a fall. If we didn't win, it would have been a loss. you know a big loss and so it I didn't I didn't particularly enjoy it but it definitely made the win feel a bit sweeter you know that we had kind of really come through that god that pressure I mean the pressure of I think this is what people perhaps underestimate the pressure of being the best at something is so immense it's so immense because like you say if you're not then the best on any given occasion it is a huge loss whereas if you are the underdog or you're unknown anything's a plus and it has such a different flavor to it yeah crazy and also it also is slightly reductive in terms of how much hard work you've had to put in to get to that point to be the best like oh they'll just win oh my god four years of grueling training to get to that point it feels quite reductive to talk about it in that way I think that's why the older I've got and I don't know if it's that I've got older that I've spent more time in sport that I've got kids probably a bit everything I think my perspective on success has totally shifted and what success is for me definitely looks far less like medals but you know it sounds really cheesy but the journey is really really important how you get there what you represent what you're doing along the way what you're changing along the way is so much more important to me because if I had ended my career so I ended my career after Rio and if I had just left it there I would have been really proud of what I had done but I've done more in the last two Olympics than I have in those first two and I think that for me that shift in perspective of what's important and what it means is really different.

22:14Without a doubt I mean we haven't even got on to the juggle the juggle of it all and it's so I find this conversation a tricky one in ways because whenever I've heard you interviewed before people are almost obsessional when talking to women who are elite athletes who happen to also be mums it it becomes this huge topic where we become hungry for like how and how do you do it and how and what's the juggle like and how are you achieving so much and I think I feel these conflicting emotions of awe because I am in awe of what you're able to do but frustration because we don't ask male athletes these questions there is this absolute blanket coverage assumption that if a male athlete is training or racing the mother will be at home looking after the kids we don't even ask them like oh how's the juggle how are you managing your children and your amazing sporting career with women we're obsessed with with how it's done how do you feel about that I think that it's a really important conversation to keep having because the moment we stop having it even if even if we stop having the conversation for the right reasons because we say no you know we shouldn't keep asking this because you know because we're not asking the men or because it should always be assumed that women can do it then it stops highlighting that actually it's not just there as an option for everybody no it's not easy and it's not put in place in the way that it could be so I do think it's really important to be and people do say to me oh you know do you start to feel that you know motherhood is is sort of should always go hand in hand in this kind of second half of your career and I just think absolutely it should because it's a massive reason why I came back it's a huge driver for me originally it was all about kind of proving it can be done and then it was about kind of doing it with my family and with my kids but I think there's a really really kind of fine line that I've always been careful to tread in it which is I think I want to champion the fact that women can go back and do whatever they want to do when they've had kids but I also think that not everybody should not everybody should want to I never want anyone to ever feel less than because they don't go either back to work or back to their hobbies or passions there's so many different routes that everyone should take and I think the most important thing is that the option is there.

24:43But that's so important in this conversation. I think sometimes when we're talking about this subject, it's taken in such a black and white fashion that it's like, oh, well, all women have to find their passion afterwards. And of course, we're all different. Some people, their whole life is they want to be a mum and that that feels right for them. And that's amazing. And equally, you can go back if you've got the right support and people around you to enable you to go and fulfill your dreams and passions. There's no right or wrong. It's just like you say, the option is so important. And one of the things that, one of the main barriers for women going back to work or carrying on with a career or a passion, like let's use the word passion.

25:24Like I feel like we're not allowed to say that we want to do something. It has to be like, I need to go back to work. If you really want to go back and do something because you absolutely bloody love it. One of the main barriers is support. that's the the hugest problem here I mean you have managed to juggle this with your husband brilliant Steve Buckshaw who we're all absolutely obsessed with and in love with you have this amazing communicative relationship where he's away at the moment you're juggling at home whilst you were doing the Olympics he had the kids how much compromise is involved how do those conversations go how are you how are you managing to juggle that it's a huge amount of compromise and I think it would only ever work in the short term so for this Paris Olympics I was only back at training for 18 months before the games because it was shorter Olympic cycle because of COVID yeah and around the Tokyo Olympics I did a lot of my training from home and then again it was only maybe six not nine months that I was kind of back in full-time training any more than that I mean he was he was having to make huge sacrifices with his job and with his work and it's not sustainable long term for both of us to kind of have a career on hold.

26:36And so it just, yeah, it's kind of like, I've almost found a solution because I've shown that it's possible to do, but it's not a practical solution in terms of going back long term and being able to afford childcare and things like that. So yeah, the number one, the fact that he was on board enough to say, yep, I'll step up and I'll help out. Number two, the fact that he has a job that he can be flexible with but it was yeah it definitely has a has a timeline how much you can you can have that flex so now he's got 18 months worth of work to make up for now I'm back home so yeah it's yeah it's definitely tricky and I think finding like child care is definitely always been our number one thing it's just really tricky expensive difficult inflexible that's been definitely challenging for us but also I think the the change the shift within society within language within sport within community is something that's really important as well and I think that to be supported as a parent not just supported but wanted is really crucial not just feeling like you're ticking a box or you're whether it's work or sport or whatever it is they're ticking a box having you back and showing that I think when you have children in so many ways you have so much more to give oh I agree it's just I don't know what it is but something changes in you and something is available that wasn't there before I think in so many ways and I think to tap into that and for people to to realize that and see that they could tap into it as well I think it's just it's a it's a missed opportunity if it's not used I agree I don't think motherhood's necessarily talked about in that way that there's something there's like additional benefits that come with the experience of being a parent it's it's almost like the loss is so much bigger like what you lose but actually what you gain in terms of the levels of patience that you have to cultivate and your ability to deal with no sleep like how you know you've had to really dig deep with that one having you know three young kids two are twins having no sleep and then getting up and doing a grueling training schedule that's that's something that perhaps you couldn't have done say when you were training for london definitely heather always used to laugh at me she was like helen when you have kids i do not know how you're gonna cope because i used to between sessions i used to nap if we got on a bus i'm a napper i am a napper like if i was on a bus i was sleeping if i was on a plane i was sleeping like we used to share a bedroom when we were away on um training camp and honestly every time she walked into the room she'd just walk out again because I would just be asleep like she just she's like I've never seen someone sleep as much and when you have kids I don't know how you're going to cope and I don't know what I was scared for myself as well but yeah I I see when the kids were born um I used to you know you have a few hours of broken sleep and then you go in to train and do three sessions with everyone else who's had full night sleep and naps.

29:42And the ability to just keep going, just keep going. It's mad. Yeah. You look back and you think, I mean, you're still sort of in the thick of it because your kids are pretty young still. But you look back and you think, how the hell? I remember turning up to do this terrifying job. It was at the Albert Hall. I was so nervous. It was like a big children need thing. And my kids were really small. I think Rex was maybe three. and he'd woken me up at say like three, half three and hadn't gone back to sleep. And I was lying there going, this is a nightmare. I can't do this thing tomorrow. My brain's not going to operate.

30:15And somehow I worked till about midnight that night and somehow you just do it and you don't feel like you're capable, but there's something within you. And you wouldn't even bother to probably try and flex those muscles if you didn't have to, if you weren't a mother. But actually you are able to bring that resilience into another part of your life and showcase it. Yeah, exactly. And I did find it in training. I found myself just being able to just carry on and just, I didn't feel like complaining. I just would be out there in the boat, just keeping on going. And a bit like that sleep thing, you just show up and you just turn up and you just keep going.

30:53And it's just something in you that just allows you to keep going.

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33:25Whereas it's such a given that mums will potentially press pause on their career and the men go back as they did maybe even the day after the kids, you know, been born. That still feels like there needs to be some movement there. Something needs to change because we're still like, oh my God, the guy didn't go to work I can't believe this it's still almost shocking to hear sometimes yeah I agree I agree I think the fact that it's just this given the fact that you know if a guy turns up at work nobody would say but where's the baby and of course there are like practical reasons for that and of course there are those things and I think especially in sport where there's lots of physical you know when you go through pregnancy and you're breastfeeding and things like that there are lots of physical reasons why there would be a question mark over you coming back.

34:15And that is understandable. But I think that, I guess in my situation, when Steve said, yeah, you know, you go for it. Mine isn't so much a career, it is a passion. You know, so actually there was that kind of like, you go, you do that thing. It's a gamble as well, because there's no guaranteed results at the end of it. So I can see why for him, it was a big leap of faith. Yeah. I mean, how did you, that's more pressure for you then, because you're like, oh shit, if I've said you've got to press pause on your career, I better do all right with this next, you know, coming up Olympics. I did actually feel a bit of pressure.

34:50I felt, he never, you know, put pressure on me in terms of saying it, but you know, very clearly I had made this big thing of going, I want to make it worth it by winning a medal in front of my kids. And actually it comes to the moment, the day, and you think I've got to make it happen now I can't I can't even imagine it's insane the pressure but again you know it's fueling it's fueling you in that moment to give it your absolute all the thing that there's like a great area of did you after Rio say right I'm kind of done or I felt like the commentary around you was deciding that for you at times it wasn't like You'd gone, oh, hi, everyone.

35:33That's my last Olympics. I'm going to have children now. It was almost like, oh, and she's having kids, so she's not coming back to the sport. I'm so glad you picked up on that. Because I don't know the answer to it. Yeah, that's how I felt. So I never actually announced retirement. And I just kind of, for a year or two, lots of people would often have a year or two out after the Games. I knew I wanted to start a family. And the day after I had Logan was basically the last time I'd ever be asked if I was going to go back into sport. It was just like that. For that year or two, any time I did an interview, the interviewer would say, you know, what do you think about Tokyo?

36:07Are you going to carry on? And I would say, oh, I don't know. I definitely want to have a family. But yeah, never asked again. And it just felt like this natural way of retiring and almost like this. I hadn't, I'd just been pushed into the slipstream of retirement without actually having the kind of, I guess at that time I also maybe didn't have the, I wasn't self-assured enough. I didn't have the belief that I would actually even consider carrying on when I'd had a kid. I just felt like, oh, well, if that's what happens now, that's what I do. I feel strange saying that now because I've had to be very sure of myself in some ways over the last few years.

36:48But I didn't possess that then, I don't think. I didn't possess that ability to just believe that I could do something differently. Which says so much about how we all probably feel this undercurrent of societal pressure to fit in with what we're told happens either after you've had kids or when you get to a certain age. I think that comes into it as well, that we just go, oh, yeah, this is kind of what happens then. And you don't actually make the decision for yourself. And I think so many of us in all areas of life go in, go down that slipstream that you've just talked about, whether it is retirement or it's I can't do this any longer because I'm a certain age or I've got kids.

37:27At what point did you think I'd quite like to challenge that? Age was definitely a part of it as well. I think there's just this sort of you're out of this bracket. And so therefore you move on. And it had never actually been openly discussed with me, but it just there's just this feeling, I guess, this expectation. and so four years four years I was out of the boat and I'd had my oldest in 2018 in 2020 I had the twins and it was exactly the time of COVID so I had newborn twins and 18 month old as we went into COVID and the only bit of fitness equipment in the house was a rowing machine so I kind of got back on the rowing machine just to keep fit and I was fully expecting to watch the Tokyo Olympics with my babies on the sofa that summer and then the Olympics got postponed and I suddenly had a year ahead of me in lockdown in the house with the kids and a rowing machine and the potential to make it back and at the time when I first started going back it's just like this annoying athlete trait you have which you get back on a rowing machine you think you're really good again I was like you should have ignored my scores but I just kept thinking yeah I've still got it I've still got it.

38:39But then day on day, I kept I just kept going. And it actually the the sound of the rowing machine lulled the twins to sleep. So every time it was time for their nap, I just put them by the fan of the rowing machine. And it sent them to sleep. It's a bit like a heartbeat sound, you know, so genius. Yeah. So it was it was kind of this way of getting them to nap, allowing me to do some exercise. And after a couple of months, my scores were getting really quickly back up to what they used to be. And I just started thinking and I was like, I wonder that one of the biggest barrier had definitely been the fact that you had to go into training and I'd never wanted to leave my children when they were this young you know I'd had a couple of years with my oldest at this point and I didn't want to leave the twins but I just thought under the shadow of lockdown I could just start training and I could just see if I'm good enough to get back on the team and no one needs to know and so I trained for a few months and then around the Christmas time I was doing really well so it was about five months before the games and I announced that I was going to try and make a comeback and be the first woman to make it to the games as a rower and I mean it was I honestly can't explain the the kind of outpouring of support from the parent community and it's something that I'd never I'd never really had that village before so I had you know the twins in lockdown and Logan who was a toddler but I'd never really found that tribe I've never really found that support I'd never really felt what it what it means when parents get behind parents and when I had this announcement that I was going back I maybe it was because it was lockdown and there hadn't been many stories it was a slow news day or something but it was just so unexpected the my inbox was just full and full and full of messages of parents grandparents both mums and dads or just you know grandparents people just saying thank you and this is all behind you this is what I want my little girl to see this is we're supporting you and honestly from that from that moment it changed from being something was all about you know what can I do to show you know can I show my little girl something can I can I prove something to the system it became far bigger than that and just about kind of I guess that wider community that had shown massive support to me that is so amazing it's so amazing and it's so beautiful so I think most probably all women would feel that after they've had kids there is this natural loss of identity which will last for differing periods of time depending on your circumstance and level of support and where your head's at at that point I absolutely felt that I felt like I didn't have a clue what I liked anymore um a lot of the time that was sort of I would be confused as to like do I really want to do this and like it the guilt feels so huge that I actually can't even action it so I'm going to park it my kids are now nine and eleven and my stepkids are adults but the 9 and 11 and I honestly only feel this year that I'm properly properly back in the flow of today I have got the day off work and I'm going to paint and I want to do that for me without guilt without worry I've probably got a bit more headspace at this point with their ages they're at school for the weekdays and sometimes after school club so I can be a little bit more relaxed about my timekeeping and I feel like I'm coming back to myself in a way like the old me is coming back but with more maturity and wisdom it's taken me a long time there've obviously been sort of glimmers of it along the way and I've been lucky enough to work on off throughout being a parent and finding support in different ways but I think it's the internalized bit of like wondering who you are at this point and how you've changed and whether it's for the better or which bits of you have fallen by the wayside at what I mean this was quick for you in terms of I'm setting myself this goal but at what point did you start feeling like oh yeah the old me the the elite athlete is is coming back into this body in this mindset that's such a good question because I think the way you described that is something that I still think I do feel now yeah even though I've had this massive thing um just happened to me and he'd just been at the olympic games i still think you know my twins are four and the older one's six and so but i still feel in that phase of kind of discovering who i am and what i want and where i'm at and so i think even even though i've done this big thing it doesn't it doesn't mean it's given me this huge anchor but i do think it's made me a better parent in terms of giving me that identity and I compare it to when I when I wasn't rowing and I had my toddler and then having the twins and getting back to rowing I think that I was a much more present parent because I had this I kind of compartmentalized my life and when I was at training I was there for the shortest time possible I was in and out I was getting it but I was getting it done with quality.

43:55I was present and I was going to make the most of that time so that when I stepped away from it, I would totally detach. And then when I got home, I think I just felt, I felt energized. And I think partly that's because of exercise. And I think I do, I probably am someone that needs exercise to get those endorphins and lift. And, but I think for my mental health, it was really important, that identity. and I could really throw myself into parenting. And I think that it's definitely not something that everybody needs. I see some of my friends parenting day to day with just this amazing consistency and this amazing ability to be present.

44:35But for me, I found the stepping back in a real kind of powerful moment that I'd given myself this kind of reminder of who I am outside of outside of the house as well yeah I'm the same I need something creative to remind me of who I am I think it's that simple just a reminder of oh yeah because obviously like I feel like I have to say the disclaimer of like being a parent is a privilege and it's amazing and there's so many beautiful parts of it but a lot of it is really mundane and you are doing stuff on repeat and sometimes it's thankless a lot of the time and sometimes it's totally and utterly exhausting mentally emotionally physically so to have something that really boosts you outside of that if that is what you want as we keep saying you know if that floats your boat I've just used the pun there sorry guys without even realizing it but that is is deeply important to give you that sort of balance and I think perspective that when you step back into it you do feel re-energized and that and that you you can step into that space gratefully exactly yeah being grateful and I think every single time I would come back I was grateful not only for the fact that I was able to go and do this thing I wanted to do but grateful every time I walked back home and being you know just I guess reassessing how how lucky I am and how great this actually is but when I did notice if I stayed in it too long I think my perspective shifted and I definitely found it I found it harder to be the parent that I wanted to be yeah I mean before so so you met Steve in 2014 at some point you you decide this is what you want to do you want to start a family at that point knowing how the sporting world works knowing how your body might change and you know just the practicalities of life after having kids did you have a moment where you thought about the impact it would have on not only your career but your passion and your identity?

46:41I think before having kids, I never, ever thought about what happens next. It was just something that I knew I wanted to have a family and the timeline goes like this. And after Rio, it was a very sensible time. It was like a sensible time to retire and to have a family and to do all these things. You know, I didn't really think about what I do next. and I think that I expected to maybe fall into things a bit more things to naturally happen a bit more like not having to make big decisions like going back to the Olympics and things like that I just I just I don't know I think that thinking about how you're going to feel when you're a parent is really hard because it's something which is I found it quite alien you know I didn't have I didn't know lots of people who had had children I wasn't around lots of children who were kind of in my like inner circle really so kind of those discussions around your body changing or actual childbirth or anything like that I just had never really had before and then twins talk to me about having twins well I'm a twin myself and so actually my mum was pretty much on speed dial for the whole time oh my god I hope yeah but you know what it's it's not doubly as hard I don't think really yeah and actually in some ways there are definitely moments that are much easier I found that when they were newborns it's it's hard because I was breastfeeding them both and I remember actually they I had to wean them off because I had to go to the European Championships to compete and they they were still feeding and they got to 14 months and I was thinking I thought they were just gonna Logan stopped at 12 months he just stopped and they kept going and I was thinking I've got to fly out to Italy in a week they were slowly stopping they eventually stopped feeding and I remember being out in Italy and in between races expressing in the shower because I was like I just this is too much um but yeah I was rowing with a girl called Polly at the time she was just laughing at me she's like every time we race boobs are a different size oh i mean this is just again all so mind-blowing you're about to take part in this high-pressured race and you've got to worry about essentially your boobs going rock hard because you haven't expressed enough i was thinking imagine if anyone i'm racing knows what i'm doing right now um but yeah all part of the process or unknown or unknown world for me um yeah it was a very very surreal part of the whole experience it's unbelievable i remember doing top of the pops Christmas once and my daughter was maybe I don't know like two three months old and I'd brought her to the studio and I was sort of like doing a bit to the camera running out breastfeeding and there was a bit where we were filming and filming and I was like guys I'm gonna have to stop you here because I could feel it's like leaking they were like two hard rocks I was like oh I've got to get out of it now and the panic of like everyone looking at you and oh my god it's a nightmare oh but twins I can't even imagine it's um the thing is when the whole other thing I felt like as soon as they got to toddler age and they started to play with each other yeah like that's when it changed because they would actually entertain each other and I think that's the thing I found hardest when it was just me and one child was that you're their world their entertainment and you're kind of like putting on full theater productions for them um whereas actually when it was the two of them they did interact with each other a lot and actually they still do they still if it's the two of them together it's much easier than one on their own they bounce off each other so as soon as they're out of that baby phase i found having twins actually not significantly harder than one it's such a lovely bond for them yeah it's lovely and they're they're really different they're a boy girl as well yeah um but they're really different so they kind of they don't kind of encroach each other's territory too much oh that's good they've got some sort of like unwritten understanding of how it all works although i think they might be rebelling against each other like they're kind of as different as can be at the moment yeah i loved the book that you wrote with steve about getting kids out in nature and parenting in a different way i mean we say different way it's basically parenting like people did in the 70s which we've come so far from we're in this weird territory now where screens are stuck in front of kids to sort of pacify them so we can do the cleaning or whatever it might be but the balance is tipping into probably not great territory and you both seem extremely passionate about making sure that kids are outside getting dirty camping playing in trees was that ever a discussion you had or I mean I'm imagining we both know what your passions are it was just a great fit that you both wanted to parent in the same way I think so yeah we both wanted to parent in the same way in terms of being outdoors we're definitely not I mean we have screen time like the kids will watch tv they'll do something on the ipad but something we wanted to do with that book is I think we very much realized that a skill set both Steve and I have is the ability to just be really comfortable to go outside and and be in nature and that actually for a lot of people that is um I guess it's just you exert more energy whether it's mental energy physical energy practical things you need knowing how to do it what to do what to do on a rainy day what to do by the beach and so we thought and I think when I had the kids I remember thinking what do I do with you what do I do today because suddenly your brain can go you know go to fog I have it all the time I had this weekend like what do I do with my own children on a Saturday and I don't want to go to Westfield what do I do exactly you just feel freaked out yeah exactly and I had this I always have this thing of what what do people do and so we we wrote this book just essentially to go what do people do in the outdoors and it's from from very very simple things from from blackberry picking to building a den to and and kind of wherever you are wherever you are in the country you could open the book and I hope find something that just shortcuts that what on earth do we do to go well let's just do this and I would just love to think that it can be kind of something that sits on your bookshelf and is a really great kind of go-to kind of whenever you get that thought of I know we need to go outside but I can only do so many walks to the park there's me and you can still walk to the park but make it a bit different by doing this as we go um so yeah hopefully it'll kind of help help families get outside more it's lovely it's a beautiful guide and it's just uh an essential reminder that we just need to get kids out in nature just touching and feeling and looking at stuff and spying newts in streams and picking blackberries like you say it's just we've got to get back to basics and get the balance back because you know screens are inevitable they're being introduced into schools now which I feel slightly conflicted about but we know that's becoming a bigger part of life so I think where we can counter it it's just so important yeah exactly and I'm the first to say you know if I'm if I need to at home I will go right kids you're watching a film because I've got to do the laundry and I've got to do the cleaning and I've got to do this and that and I don't feel guilt around that but I also know that sometimes if they're getting edgy or they're kicking off actually the solution will be let's get outside and then suddenly the mood changes yeah and so I think there's this the space for both there's room for both but both should be really enjoyed by your families I agree it's a bloody great book um this is the most obvious question ever but before I say goodbye to you I think all of us are eager to hear your thoughts on whether there would be another Olympics.

54:21I don't know. When I was going towards Paris, I really thought it would be my last. But I'm not sure now. I think that... So when I... I always, always thought that my body would tell me when I had had enough. I would either get ill or injured or just my performance would decline and that hasn't happened and when I was going to Paris I was actually in the best shape I've ever been and in a way that's frustrating because I know you're like oh shit I've got to do it probably thinks I could go again but then it has to be for the right reason so I'm definitely not going back anytime soon I'm going to take time out I'm if I stay fit and if I stay fit enough I'll see whether I want to go back in a couple of years time it's not a no it's not a right not right now um I don't know because we you know we've ticked off the list you've stood on the podium and your kids have seen you like we've done that that's fantastic amazing to do it again but you have done it is it enough to I believe it is to say and but it's a pressure for you I want to show women of all ages that you can do this with your body and actually you can keep setting yourself goals and give things a try is that enough I love that I really love it I'd love to kind of represent you know people as they as they get told they're too old for something or told they're not right for something or told they're too this or too that I don't think you're too anything if you're if you're good enough you're tall enough you're short enough you're old enough you're anything enough um so there is this sense of me that wants to kind of go keep going to prove a point but I don't know if that's a good enough reason to keep going so I think over the next year or two I'm going to have to work out if I went back why would I go back and like you say what result would I be looking for what would it what would the end goal be um because I am really content with my career um but I never thought I would walk away from the chance to go to an Olympic game so I don't know.

56:30Well I'm excited to just see what unfurls and I'm sure that you'll continue to surprise us all so we'll just have to wait and see. Helen it's been such a joy talking to you and once again just a massive congratulations on this amazing sporting year. Thank you so much. Oh thanks Helen what a woman what an incredible human being who I think for many women is a great source of inspiration that we can still have goals and dreams and desires and we can action them and that it's okay to and that you can do things outside of the family home it's not always possible but but I love the fact that she's showing us there are other options and doing it so gracefully and brilliantly what a woman and And also the fact that she didn't necessarily say no to another Olympics, did she?

57:22Love that. What other brilliant female athletes have we had in the show? God, so many. I've been so lucky to chat to people like Leah Williamson, of course, England football captain. Molly McCann. Oh, my God. She's so brilliant. The brilliant MMA fighter. We loved her so much. And do you know who I'm going to put in the list? She's a broadcaster, but now turning into somewhat of an elite athlete. Adele Roberts. She's become the fastest London marathon running woman with a stoma bag. I mean, she's doing loads of marathons at the moment all over the world. And she's doing them in like three hours 15.

57:55It's ridiculous. She's just the best. We're going to pop links in the show notes so you can see all of those episodes if you want to hear some more goodness from brilliant women. Do you want to know what goes on behind the scenes at Happy Place? I hope you do. Loads goes on. I've got the most amazing team that I work with that I adore and I couldn't do any of this without them. You get to see what they do. You just need to come over and join us on Instagram at happyplaceofficial and on YouTube because we've been filming loads of fun that goes on behind the scenes with the podcast and the festival set up and the book in print that we have, all of it.

58:29And I'd love you to laugh along with the mistakes and mishaps and fun and shenanigans along the way. Until next week, a massive thanks again to Helen, to the producer, Anushka Tate at Happy Place Studios and to you because you're ace.

58:49We'll see you next time.

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