How To Fail x Happy Place

0:00Hello and welcome to Happy Place. I'm Fern Cotton and today I've got something a little bit different for you. Today I am going to be sat with my very good mate Elizabeth Day, who is not only a very good friend and someone that I adore spending time with, chatting about life with and having the odd little early dinner with, but she's of course also a podcast host of her brilliant podcast How To Fail. So I had this idea that we could get together and talk through episodes of Happy Place and How to Fail that have really impacted us and have changed our lives for the better. we're so lucky because we get to interview people from all different walks of life who have experienced all sorts of brilliant and challenging times and something Elizabeth and I talk about a lot outside of work is how much these conversations shape how we think and change at times the course of our lives so Elizabeth and I have chosen some episodes from our respective podcast to talk about and to really extract those lessons that we've learned from these very special episodes.

1:15And you'll get a lot of us just chatting as mates as well, which I really hope you enjoy. A quick note before we get stuck into this special episode with Elizabeth. Do stick around until the end because I'm very, very excited. I'm going to be able to share some of the wonderful people who'll be with me at this year's Happy Place festivals in Chiswick and Cheshire. OK, I think you're going to love this episode. Here's the show.

2:07This is nice. I'm so excited. A, to see you. B, to be in your little podcast hut. It's a bit hot in here today. I'm really sorry about that. That's just me. It is. It's just your beauty and gloriousness emanating. It's so lovely to do this today. Obviously, we've been friends for quite a while now, and we usually enjoy this sort of discussion with a margarita in hand whilst having our little dinner dates that we have. I know, the best dinner dates. So lovely. But I thought it'd be really nice today for us to look back at some of the episodes of How to Fail and Happy Place that we feel respectively have impacted us the most and just sort of discuss it and have a big old chin wag.

2:48I can't wait. And thank you so much for suggesting this because it was actually podcasts that brought us together. It is. This is the friendship that podcasts forged. It's like a really beautiful circular thing. So I'm just so delighted to be here. That's because the podcast world is the friendliest. So true. It just is. It's this gorgeous ecosystem where everyone supports each other. And this is not just sort of making it sound all fanciful and Disney-like. It is a really beautiful, supportive place. And that's why lots of us get on and do this sort of thing. It's gorgeous. I know. It really struck me coming from conventional media.

3:23Same. How supportive. Which, let's face it, is bloody toxic a lot of the time. And actually full of people who don't want you to succeed. Yes. Whereas podcasting is so much more democratic and equitable. and you're right I've met so many amazing people either because I've been on their podcast or they've come online and they've become genuine friends and we're all really supportive of each other so it's just lovely to raise a rising tide raises all boats oh isn't that beautiful two old boats sat chatting about life let's crack on so I have chosen to kick off with Emily Ratajkowski who came on Happy Place a little while ago.

4:01I found this conversation fascinating because I'm deeply intrigued about, I guess, what it is to be a woman in the modern world. And we are often presented with these thoughts that women can have it all and do it all. And we're confused whether that's a feminist thing to say or an anti-feminist thing to say. I never like to put labels on things too much, but I think it's a really good discussion point. So in this, we chat a bit about if it's possible to be an overtly sexy woman and be taken seriously. You are abductified. You, you know, do, you're sexualized at maybe very young, even if you're a woman who's, you know, done a bunch of amazing journalistic work, like there is kind of this push to be also hot and celebrated in that way.

4:52And then on the other side of it, there's this sort of shaming that comes with it of like, well, now nobody's going to take you seriously because you're a slut, quote unquote, or even from feminists, I think that there's this feeling of like, well, now you've played into the male gaze. So therefore you're not progressive. You're not helping women. That's been my experience even before I was a model or in the public spotlight, just as a 13 year old getting dressed and kind of like having a new body and having a woman's body for the first time and feeling the attention from men when I dressed a certain way.

5:24Also like feeling afraid because of the attention, also feeling validated because of the attention. Then, you know, having teachers snap my bra strap and feeling like I was typecast in a certain way because of, you know, the way I was presenting myself. So it's complicated. And I think it's something we just get it from all sides, really. Yeah. And, you know, is there a conclusion? Because I think that's the question that I kept asking myself when I was reading your book is but wait can a woman and I want the answer to be yes as a feminist but can can a woman show her sexiness can she express her sexual desires dress in an overtly sexy way and be listened to and be taken seriously and be respected I don't know if that is true in the day and age that we're in today yeah I don't think it is I think it's really complicated.

6:18I think there are examples of women who've managed it. Jane Fonda is somebody who's done both. There are examples for sure. I even think like Megan Thee Stallion is somebody who, you know, people respect, but she also, I mean, music is kind of its own category, interestingly, but there are examples. I would even say Cardi B is a great example. I mean, against all odds, she's had to fight and work for it. And she deals with race, which is a whole other factor of people not taking you seriously. But I think the issue is that, you know, what a lot of feminists would say is like doing something to feel good.

6:53If it's playing into the male gaze, then it's ultimately actually hurtful and harmful to women. My issue is like, God, doesn't kind of everything we do, like in some ways play into that, like even just putting on mascara in the morning and making sure that like our skin looks a certain way. And one of the episodes I'm doing, the question I'm asking is can you be a feminist and get plastic surgery because I'm just interested in the kind of lines that women draw around what they feel is feminist and is okay and how you know just what kind of shirt you wear on a given day to work or just not even to work just out on the streets in public so you know it's something I'm really fascinated by and I would say that I don't have an answer.

7:35Basically we can't win. We can't but one of the things I'm most impressed about is how you pronounced her surname. You nailed that. I practised it in the mirror a lot. It wasn't even a stumble. I'm not going to lie. It's a great surname. It is. It is. I found it so interesting, this episode, because as I was walking down the street listening to it and I remember this, I felt that I knew how I thought about these issues and then I would question what I thought I knew because we all live in such an imperfect world that has been built around patriarchal foundations. And so we can't ever remove ourselves from that context in a way.

8:15But my position is being a feminist is about believing in equal rights for women and men. So if you believe that and you live your life according to that premise, you are a feminist and it sort of doesn't matter what else you do on top of that, as long as that's a fundamental belief that you pursue. I agree. But you really have to look at your own opinions and really excavate them. And this episode made me do that massively. And I think even since that episode, I've found situations really interesting. The other day I was in a discussion online about body image for women specifically, because that's the only perception I have and the life experience.

9:02And I had given the example of another male host presenter and talked about the fact that they wouldn't have such a spotlight on their body or what they're wearing or what their body looked like, etc. and somebody had commented on that post saying yeah but I don't see him posting pictures of himself in the mirror with an outfit on I don't think they were meaning to sound particularly punchy but my thought process having spoken to Emily was so okay so we have to play to male standards or norms to be taken seriously yeah and also it depends which men we're looking at because there are men who do that there are men who are creatively fueled and Tom Daly has a passion for knitting and has fantastic outfits that he posts so I think it's more about how we express our creativity yeah and I know that's partly how you express yours massively yeah the way that you dress the way that you present yourself the phenomenal way you do your makeup which we were chatting about before that's all driven by your interest in art and connection through art.

10:04And so I totally get it. And I think it's more interesting that that's the response of someone looking at you doing that, that that response is conditioned by the society that they've grown up in. And it would be really great not only to question the context that we're in when we make decisions, but also the context that we're in when we have responses to other women. Totally. But I think going back to your first reaction to that clip, it's just do what makes you feel good and we've just got to stop judging other people and therefore we'll end up judging ourselves less that's the beauty of that one yes you stop judging other people and then you have much more self-compassion and you're less judgmental towards your own actions which is always a plus preach so which episode would you like to dig into from how to fail i have chosen one of my favorite episodes of all time which genuinely changed my life and it is with mo Gaudat, who came on How to Fail way back in 2019 in season four.

11:04The type of thought that makes us unhappy is incessant thinking. Incessant thinking is basically your brain sounding the siren. Something's wrong, something's wrong, something's wrong. That incessant thinking doesn't lead to anything, doesn't change anything in the real world. It happens in the midline areas of your brain. There are two other types of thoughts that are useful. One of them is insightful thinking, and the other is experiential thinking. Insightful thinking is when you solve a problem. Experiential thinking is when you observe the world as it is. Those happen mostly on the right-hand side of the brain, some in the prefrontal cortex, some in the insula and so on.

11:39Those kinds of thoughts are the thoughts you should allow your brain to give you. And by the way, that's the attitude we use at work. If someone walks into my office and complains, I don't let them complain incessantly. Midway I say, is there any information we're missing about this? Should we look at this differently? This is insightful thinking, okay? And experiential thinking. This is basically looking at the world as it is. Then I ask, what can we do about it? And that's exactly what I do with my brain. Ali, my son, leaves our world, okay? People think that I'm not given a choice. I am given two choices.

12:12One of them is to cry for the rest of my life. And then 27 years later, when I'm on my deathbed, Ali will still not be there. Is that a wise choice? the other is to do something about it that doesn't bring him back nothing's going to bring him back it's the truth he left right but what i can do is i at least can make my life a little better and his life and the life of a billion people a little better than that than the day he left isn't that a better way of doing it now of course i feel pain i miss him tremendously But pain doesn't dictate how my brain tortures me. Pain is different than suffering.

12:54Pain is I remember him, I feel that I miss him. Suffering is my brain telling me you should have driven him to another hospital. And my brain did, by the way. Okay, I allow my brain only two types of thought. One is useful thinking and the other is joyful thinking. Anything else I say, Becky, stop, behave. Useful thinking. if my brain tells me you should have driven him to another hospital I basically say to my brain I cannot do this right now do you have something you want to tell me that I can do I wish I could but I cannot give me a useful thought so my brain says why don't we write the happiness model we learned with him share it with 10 million people was the original target and make 10 million people remember him and love him and send him a happy wish that would be a good way to honor him great that's a great idea brain thank you that's how we should think right or a joyful thought until today i promise you three to four times a week i wake up in the morning or i go to bed at night and the only thought that comes to my head is ali died he's part of my heart it's just i feel that part of me is missing right i answer in a very simple way and i say yes brain but ali also lived Do you understand that?

14:12Ali died is a horribly painful thought. Ali lived is the same thought, but it's a beautiful thought. It's 21 years of joy, of wisdom, of learning, of insightful discoveries, of memories of him taking care of Aya, taking care of me, taking care of his mother, that I wouldn't replace for anything. Honestly, even if you tell me, we'll take away your pain for losing your son, I wouldn't say, no, no, no, hold on. I want him. I want the 21 years. Don't lie to me, brain. Don't lie to me. But think about those. Because when I say, Ali lived, I start to get memories that are all happy, all joyful, all things that we did together.

14:55That's me being the boss. That's me telling my brain to take charge so that if there is something we can do, we do it. If there isn't, then don't torture me. Because there is no point to torture me if there is nothing I can do about it. I chose that clip because it changed the way that I think about thinking. And you can hear there how well Mo explains quite profound concepts. And to give it a bit of context, he's talking there about his late son Ali, who died aged 21 during a routine operation. And the Becky that he mentions briefly is his Becky brain. So Mo calls the incessant anxious brain that is constantly pointing out the things that might go wrong.

15:39He calls that brain Becky after a girl at his school who did the same thing. So great. With apologies for any Beckys listening. But there's something about that technique which sounds so simple, but it's genuinely life changing because it separates you from that part of your brain. you feel then that you can have a conversation with your anxious thoughts rather than being wholly defined by them and swallowed up by them and it's a technique that I use and that I find immensely helpful and I'm just so grateful to Mo for sharing that. Yeah I think it that episode will have helped so many people because we all get stuck in that negative loop where an issue from the past or something you're worrying about in the future is obsessional and you just get stuck in it so I think being able to see the difference between sort of rational thought and what you know to be true versus that worry and I really found it interesting hearing him talk about the difference between pain and suffering yes that is a game changer I've never really thought of it like that before that the goal isn't sort of rid yourself of pain in life because it's a given that we're all going to experience pain but suffering that's perhaps optional in terms of the varying degrees of suffering you're willing to put yourself through exactly I think it's having the awareness of that isn't it yeah and it sounds very difficult and it is very difficult to make that choice but the one way of putting it is you experience pain when you drink a cup of tea that's too hot you burn your tongue that's the pain the suffering is then for weeks and months afterwards to go what a stupid person I am to have made my tea so hot yeah that I burnt my tongue and you're piling self-loathing on top of everything else and it's absolutely very hard to do in a much deeper context if you've suffered great loss or you're going through a really difficult time or you've just been diagnosed with a terrible illness it's an incredibly difficult challenging thing to do and it is one of those things that needs to become a daily practice I believe because it won't be easy to begin with but if you keep in dialogue with your Becky brain or with your Jennifer brain or with your think of another Kevin brain then my experience is that that has really helped me if I've just kept at it it has actually helped you can build up resilience like a muscle it's so brilliant I've picked this next episode because it's a conversation that you and I have had in real life quite often because we are both part of a blended family sometimes feel weird saying that word blended but I think it's probably the truest sort of description you can give a family where you've merged pre-existing families, kids, whatever.

18:15And obviously Rio and Kate Ferdinand have made a beautiful documentary about this. They've been very generous in sharing their experiences of it and continue to do so. And I learned a lot and implemented some of my learnings into how I go about running a home that's blended and dealing with the challenges that you face having a blended family. Then all of a sudden I found myself here with three stepchildren. I think, wow, there's a big turnaround. I didn't really, like you, naively, think too much about it. I just thought, I'm nice. It's going to be okay. I'll manage it and I'll get through everything.

18:55I didn't really think of the dynamics that go with it. Even moving in this house, showering and the kids knocking on the door and you've got no clothes on. Just mad stuff that I didn't even think about. I think it's only when I moved in and I thought wow this is hard there's a lot there's a lot to think about different areas that people don't even see um it was tough wasn't it I think discipline's a huge one because yeah in each household discipline is different different and we used to have loads of conversations about how far can I go how how loud can I should I shout or how firm should I be like it's so many and there ain't really a dial on the wall that you just say that's go at number six and that'll be fine do you mean it's so much trial and error that and you're scared of getting stuff wrong you never want to get it wrong because you're a perfectionist in that sense yeah and i also think it's more you as a family had your own way of doing things and i grew up with this way that i thought i would be a parent and that i would do and one of the main ones is rio allowed the children to play football in the house and from when i was yes from when i beautiful gorgeous house with gorgeous stuff everywhere exactly my point um but when i was a kid i was never allowed to play the ball in the house and that is something that just i said ria i can't cope with this and he said but this is what we do and there sort of had to be a thing that now is the new thing that we do but that was hard it was hard wasn't it football played in the house for about a year and then one day i said guys i can't cope with this anymore You've got three stepchildren.

20:24How have you approached discipline? I struggle with this one hugely. It's so difficult. And that's why I'm so thrilled that you picked this clip, because it's very rare that you get step parents who feel able to talk openly and publicly. And that's partly because we're all so aware that we have lots of other people's lives taken into consideration when we open up this conversation. discipline is one of the hardest things. I am really quite lucky now in that my stepchildren are that bit older so they're all teenagers. I was married before and I was also a stepmother then and the children were much younger and it was a dysfunctional relationship for me in many ways and my experience of that relationship was that I was not allowed to have my own opinion about what went on in our house and that was really really difficult for me and I think that it really depends for step parents on how well navigated or not well navigated the divorce has been because if it hasn't been that well navigated often the knock-on effect is that one parent feels really guilty and therefore that parent doesn't want to discipline their kids when they come and stay.

21:38And that's a very tricky thing for a new partner to know how to deal with. And also because at the time that that happens, the new partner is probably resented, understandably, by the children in question. My situation now is so much better because my husband and his ex have done an incredible job of co-parenting and navigating the end of their marriage. And their children are great and actually they don't need me that much and in a way that's that's very liberating so I never once would make the mistake of thinking that I'm in any way their parent I'm absolutely not I hope I'm someone who they can turn to and who offers a different perspective on life and the thing that I've noticed has really helped with like this time round is that my husband and I, like Kate and Rio, I feel really able to talk to my husband about things.

22:35And we have great chats about it. And he respects my opinion. That's key. It's key. It's key. And also because I'm a woman without children of her own, very often I feel that my opinion can be very easily dismissed by other parents. My husband never does that. And I've never felt like that in that family unit. So I think what Kate and Rio went on to say that they have a daily debrief, don't they before they go to bed and I loved that idea and for Kate it's so much more challenging or differently challenging in many ways because very sadly Rio's first wife died yeah and so to to be stepping into that it's huge is is huge and a whole different dynamic how are you finding it I have it's you know what it's really varied over the years because when I met my husband and Arthur and Lola, my stepkids, were five and nine.

23:27So they were quite tiny. And it was a real novelty. And I just thought, this is fun. We get to go to the cinema and go to adventure playgrounds. I'd never done that as an adult. So I just thought it was all fun. And I think over the years, I realised the seriousness of it in terms of the impact that I would have on them growing up and navigating the world. And I feel very similarly to you. I'm not trying to be another parent. I sort of have found the language maybe like guide you. So I want to be a guide in their life. That's a great, great term. Yeah, I want to, like you, I want to be someone that they turn to if they feel they need help or advice.

24:04And luckily that has happened. And it's been like the most special moments where I feel like so included in their life and big moments, which is, you know, I cherish our relationship so much. you know for for as a step parent and that it's one of the most glorious things that it's taken a lot of hard work it's taken a lot of discussions with me and jesse who was that dad at the start who felt guilty and all of those things and you know wanted the kids just to be happy all the time but we've navigated it together and all of us have changed how we parent and deal with the ever-changing family dynamics and my stepkids are now 21 and nearly 18 and we're probably in a place where we sort of have you know decent conversations have fun um it's less about sort of discipline and homework and bedtime and all the stuff that we've had sort of trudge through previously so I think for anyone going through that transition now in a cliche way it does get easier it does I was about to say exactly the same thing because my stepchildren are 19, 16 and 13.

25:10And it's really lovely with the 19 year old having an independent relationship with him. And I just wanted to say exactly the same thing, that it's such a difficult thing sometimes to go through when they're younger. Yeah. But as they get older, even though you might never feel appreciated, I promise you that as they get older, you end up understanding that you are. you are and they understand the relationship with more clarity I think like my stepson who's at university will like call me out of the blue and I could like weep when I see his name on the phone like he's called me oh my god that would never have happened five years ago I think it does take you know a sort of level of maturity and them sort of understanding it which just happens to all kids that they have probably a different perspective of parents step parents as they get older but anyone going through it please listen to that chat because I think it was just very helpful for me and I've taken a lot of learnings from it.

26:06So who are you going to chat about next? I am going to chat about the wonderful Alexandra Burke the singer Alexandra Burke who came on season 10 of How to Fail and the reason I've picked this clip is because you and I both remember the 90s and the early 2000s and the way that women and particularly women of colour and particularly women of colour in the music industry were treated is something that looking back on I am astonished that we let society get away with and Alexandra came on and just spoke so openly and vulnerably about that that I wanted to share it. I was sat down and told you're never going to be good enough because of your colour you're never going to sell a certain amount of records because you know you may not appeal to a certain audience and I was told to bleach my skin and you're never going to perform on the brits because they wouldn't have a black artist perform on the brits the most you're going to do is just one x factor and that's the biggest it will get for you and all of that is bullshit excuse my french it's just ridiculous because i was never brave enough to say that 10 years ago when i was told that i sat there and thought well if that's the case i'm just going to work really hard so that i can achieve everything you've told me that i can't and you know granted yes i haven't performed on the brits before but I've been nominated and that in itself is a huge honor and all the little things about not selling music well that's rubbish too because I have sold so all the little things that I was told that you can't do this and you can't do that well no I have proved you wrong in some kind of way because I've worked really hard to try my best to achieve things that I'm proud of but if it wasn't for my family if it wasn't for my mum in particular for my amazing beautiful friends and the team I currently have around me I don't know where I'd be mentally if I'm honest with you I don't know where I'd be because keeping that strong face and keeping that strong spirit up don't get me wrong I'm a very positive person but it's very difficult to keep it up when you are feeling at your lowest but also you know and being made to feel literally like you can't be yourself yes you're too much of something in this way or that way.

28:11I find it so depressing and flabbergasting that this was only 10 years ago that people were talking to you in these terms. And I feel angry on your behalf and you sound really mature and measured about it. But do you think, were you, I'm guessing you weren't allowed to be angry, but where did, did you feel anger and where did it go? I think for me, So it takes a lot to really pee me off. Bless her. It's mad. It is so mad. And it really opened my eyes to what she went through. She came onto How to Fail so ready and willing to be unbelievably vulnerable. She also talked about the death of her mother and how that impacted her and how she kept on working right up to the last minute because it was sort of her way of coping and how she was portrayed in the press and the tabloid press in a certain way as being a massive diva on X Factor and placing lots of demands.

29:10And I was speaking to this woman who was just so wonderful. You can hear it there. Oh, she's an angel. She really is. There's a real honesty to her and such a level of openness that actually in the middle of that interview, I was like, is this ethical for me to be doing this interview? Because she was so raw. And then it was such a beautiful experience. putting that episode out there to see the response that it had and how loved I think she felt as a result of it. And we've become friends subsequently. We were talking earlier about making podcast friends. And I just really respect her for having kept her head high through all of that.

29:48And I wanted to talk to you about it because of the way you were portrayed or you felt you had to handle the tabloid press at a certain time in your life when you were also searching for your identity and how difficult that was and how I hope it's changing? I think it is, but I think the press are always going to be just without a moral compass and, you know, tarnish people with certain brushes very flippantly. And it is part and parcel, very sadly, of being in the public eye. And we've seen the extreme detriments that that leads to, you know, people taking their own lives. And then it still doesn't change.

30:24So for someone like Alexandra to have been through that, the extremities of the discrimination and the language used against her. It's just, I mean, thank God that she's just still using that incredible voice that she's got to entertain people, to soothe people. I once went on a, this is quite random, I trekked to Machu Picchu with Alexandra. That is so random. Was it for charity? It's so random, yeah. Yeah, myself and Denise Van Outen organised a trek for several breast cancer charities. And Alexandra willingly said yes. And we had this incredible experience where we trekked for about a week together.

31:06And she would occasionally just sort of burst into song and you'd be like walking past a couple of llamas on a field in Peru. And then all of a sudden this voice. I mean, she's just pure, raw talent. and it's like how can you we're wearing sort of dirty trekking clothes and peeing behind rocks there she is with this angelic voice just sort of soothing us all it was she's a remarkable person I think yes sadly probably the music industry is still more toxic than others in terms of the expectations upon female artists but I'm glad when anyone speaks up like Alexandra they're helping to break down those barriers and as painful as it is to talk about for for Alex brilliant that she's you know courageous enough to do so couldn't agree more and if you haven't seen her x-factor final performance with beyonce do you remember beyonce of course i'm on british x-factor you have to go and youtube it right now that one and the other one that i was obsessed with was when she did the christina aguilera song and she was dressed up in what was that song called anyway she was dressed up in this kind of uh navy type uniform and she did this incredibly hectic a sort of foot perfect dance routine and her singing was completely on point as well yeah like she actually danced and sang at the same time she's remarkable we love you alex you're the best um so next up i have chosen to go with the episode where roman kemp came on happy place this one impacted me greatly because obviously they're all subject matters you know that he was discussing that I'm deeply interested in, whether it's depression, suicide, just general mental health, his own.

32:44And obviously he lost one of his dear friends and radio producer who took his own life. And Roman has really faced that pain fully by talking about that period of his life. And he goes around schools relentlessly talking to kids. And that's the bit that really impacted me, how we talk to kids about mental health because I've been very cagey to talk to my own kids about depression, anxiety. I've been fearful to do so. I'm not even sure why. I just thought, oh, I can't use those words in front of them. And he directly said the absolute opposite, which I found fascinating. You know, we're sitting here now and less than 50 % of schools in the UK have some form of outlet in terms of a therapist or a counselor that means there's over 50 % that don't and it's like one thing that is is so prevalent and and is so tough is that I hear a lot of people parents that I've certainly spoken to that have had kids that have taken their own life and when I say kids I mean like nine years old ten years old happy kids had children do you what i mean you know and they've then gone and lied to their friends about how they've died and that's because of this weird shame thing again you know this unacceptance of of what's happened and then you have to think about all the friends in that school year you have to think about you know okay how is that going to affect them moving forward you know how is that trauma going to affect them you know i'm a nearly 30 year old man and mine has messed me up big time you know so i can only imagine how it would affect kids so i think that when people start realizing the reality of this isn't just men now it's men and boys yeah you know the problem with suicide is is children like it's that's that's where it needs to be stopped you know if you can get into people about before that age of 16 where they've made that conscious decision to open up as much as they possibly can you know five years old you know i went to a school in birmingham and they're a school that practice um you know mental health at quite a high level with their pupils almost like a test run thing and i had a five-year-old talk to me about what depression is and it was the most amazing thing i've ever seen because i know for a fact that that five-year-old you don't sit there and tell them this but I know for a fact that that five-year-old at some point in their life will experience some form of depression and they will go back to those things that they learned at school and go this is normal to have this is okay I can do this.

35:32Yeah that really just changed my mind on so much and interestingly I've I probably still have a level of fear when talking to my kids about any mental health issue I need to get over that because that's quite literally all I talk about in my in some work capacity but it still feels treacherous for some reason I need to work that out and I've talked to Rex a little bit about anxiety and he was he already knew the word they talk about that sort of thing at school not even a teacher-led sort of situation but amongst friends I think they're much more savvy than we were as kids because the language is more ubiquitous and used.

36:15So I've tentatively started walking towards that because I really, you know, if this is sort of like what I'm dedicating my life to, this kind of conversation, I've got to implement it in my own home. And I think it always feels much more intimate and terrifying at times, I think, to have those sorts of chats. But I think, I don't think we should be shying away from it, whether it's with friends, even our parents. I think that's a whole other thing, sort of talking to people, there are barriers up when it comes to mental health. We've got to just knock all of those barriers down. And it is really scary.

36:50I think the closest example I can come to in my own life is fertility. And the realisation I had when I started talking openly about the fact that I'd had miscarriages and unsuccessful fertility treatment, I was really scared because there is still so much misplaced stigma and shame around that, particularly for women because you feel wrongly that you might have failed your biological role as a woman and I'm saying that's the wrong thing to feel and it's understandable that you do and I definitely internalise that but as soon as I started actually I started writing about it openly before I started speaking about it openly I was so heartened by the knock-on effect because it turned out that lots of other people had experienced something similar and felt able to connect with me over that and now I feel really passionate about it that's different from talking to younger children about things that you don't you don't want to freak them out and I suppose it's also different when you're you're suffering something yourself when you're living with all of these issues because as a parent I imagine you want to be the strong one the one who has it sorted the one who protects your beloved kids and that must be a very difficult line to tread so yes you Fern can talk about mental health as it pertains to the wider world, but how much do you tell your child about your own mental health journey?

38:13Yeah, and also I've still got stigma around it because clearly that fear is driven by the stigma. Even I place upon my own situations that I've been through or issues that I still have, you know, sort of panic attacks or insomnia that can lead to panic. I still feel like there's a sense of failure there, definitely. so I think that stops me from having decent chats with my kids about it because if I was truly at peace with it which I think is very big ask with any of these issues whether it's fertility mental health I think it's a big ask to have full acceptance of where you're at I think it's a life's work if I did have that full acceptance maybe I could walk into that conversation more courageously because there'd be nothing to lose there's nothing to worry about if you experience this to my kids whatever but I think it's you know these are tricky conversations hence why we both like having them if this was easy we wouldn't be doing it do you know what I mean we we have chosen to dive into subjects that feel painful sometimes gritty extremely personal but ultimately are so connective and that's what I got from talking to Roman was that you have to bypass that fear to get to that ultimate connection of having a chat with whether it's your own kid or kids in schools or other members of your family or friends in the other part of that conversation was checking in with friends to the level where you don't give up if you feel something's a little bit off that you bypass again that fear to connect with them truly to work out if they're okay or not I have to say just speaking personally that you're an amazing friend in the way that you do that and you've done that for me at some really low points including sending me this jumper that I'm currently wearing and I so appreciate it because the way you check in is incredibly generous and thoughtful and it doesn't come with any expectation of a reply and sometimes you need to hear from your friend and you need to just reassure yourself that they're okay but you will just do something really lovely and send a text saying I love you mate and it means so much because in that moment I feel less isolated, less confused, less sad, less alone.

40:20And so I just want to pay tribute to you on a personal level for being one of those people. Well, that honestly makes me want to cry. It means a lot because I know the power and the impact that has when people do that for you when you're very low. And I also know how awful it is when nobody texts you in those moments, which I've also experienced in times where people don't know what to say to you. and that fear of getting it wrong puts them off saying anything, that is a lonely place to be. So I would say even if you use clumsy language or you get it wrong, you say the wrong thing, reach out. Even if it is just to tell someone you love them, it makes the world of difference.

41:01Definitely. Just say I'm thinking of you. Or in my case, leave a 10-minute rambling voice note. Or send a jumper, another option. Oh, this jumper's my favourite. Thank you. So we've got a last clip from you. And you know that I'm the biggest fangirl of this person. I'm just going to sit here now and swoon as I listen to you chat. I picked this one because I wanted to have something lighthearted because we do have such deep and meaningful conversations all the time. And I love that. But I wanted an opportunity to laugh. And also... Levity is so important. It is. Light and shade. Yes. Yin and yang.

41:37I also changed this because it's the first episode of How to Fail ever. What? I didn't know that. Yes. So season one, episode one. And I interviewed Phoebe Waller-Bridge, who is famous as Fleabag and less famously also a good friend of mine. And so she agreed to be one of my first ever guests. And I'm forever grateful to her for taking that risk. And she spoke about a time when she really embarrassed herself in front of Meryl Streep. I was really excited to meet Meryl Streep when I was in The Iron Lady. Was she? I was weird with her though I go weird around celebrities and always in a very individual way for each celebrity I should just not be around them What did you say to Meryl Streep that was weird?

42:23Meryl Streep was doing the Iron Lady and she was in this prosthetic whole body face scenario the lights were so hot so whenever she was on set she couldn't really speak in between so much energy was taken up and just acting through this you know mask and everything so when the light so she would never say anything in between cuts and we always knew and she was always like i'm really sorry but i just can't i knew i just need to like power down have a glass of like sips and water through this straw but there was one day when uh the lights went off they called cut and then she just turned around to this room of people and went you know in her margaret thatcher voice and just went hey now how's everybody's day and everyone just freaked out everyone's like froze in the room because they were like oh my god everyone at the same time like we were like vultures just like this is our moment to have to share words with Meryl Streep.

43:07And so everyone sort of was being very casual and the scene was like a drinks party or something, but edging towards her with this kind of wild look in their eye and everyone was trying to have some personal bants with Meza. So she was just opening the conversation and then it was getting like weirdly competitive and we were like crowding around her, but everyone was trying to be very casual. And then she started up this conversation about something. Anyway, I tried a joke and it landed. And she laughed and she was like, oh. everyone else looked at me with steel and ash and face and fury and I was like I've won it she's mine she's mine so she was mine but after that I was like she's totally mine she's totally mine we're gonna have a day together we're gonna like like nod to each other respectfully in the corridors we're gonna we may even like you know graduate to a drink at some point and then um at lunchtime I was sitting at this table with everybody and I was eating this apple crumble and she came down the stairs.

44:01She was feeling lively this day, obviously outside of the prosthetic. She came down the stairs and she was walking towards me. I was like, oh my God, oh my God. Like, she's going to come to the table and we're friends now because I was the one that made her laugh. And she walked up to the table and she put her hand on my shoulder and she said, oh, what are you eating? I have never understood why this. I got so excited about the banter with Meryl that I flung my apple crumble straight into my chest. my costume chest and I and I literally squawked my apple crumble and she went oh and then she went back to her American accent which she hadn't done for the whole time and she went I wasn't gonna take it from you and I was just holding this awful like dripping pudding over my my beautiful silk shirt and I'm just holding it there really it tightly not letting it go I was just like oh my god oh my god everyone was doing like what was that that was the strangest response and then she was like okay and then she she moved off and then I had to go and apologize costume thing so just weird stuff like that you made her break character Meryl Streep break character I've gone all hot for her honestly the amount of times people will message me or come up to me and say the apple crumble story my apple crumble and it just i mean phoebe's an amazing storyteller as we all know and it has me in hysterics every time i listen to it but it also i think you know the reason i started how to fail is because i wanted to make it clear that we all fail and even people that we look up to and admire who seem to have it all sorted who are famous in their own rights even they embarrass themselves in the most ridiculous ways yes I think it's really interesting when you start to talk to famous people people in the public eye that you realize that many of them definitely myself included don't feel part of that gang yeah like when I meet famous people I see them as like otherworldly and I do just like Phoebe weird shit say weird things do weird things as I was listening to that I thought I've done so many strange things.

46:12Some I had to block out because they've been so weird. But I remember once interviewing Clint Eastwood. I interviewed Clint Eastwood! How did I know you were going to say that? This is how connected we are. Oh my god! And I was so nervous about it. Did you know? Same! Well of course it's Clint fucking Eastwood. And I after the interview sort of took his champagne out of his hand and drank it. That is so sweet. It's not okay. No it's not. It's really common. which is what I am. It's really not okay. Were you interviewing him for TV or radio? Yeah, it was for the Oscars. I was in Los Angeles. It sounds very glamorous, but again, I was in the room going, I shouldn't be here.

46:51This is completely absurd that I am in a room full of people like Clint Eastwood. So I behave strangely because I don't know how to contain that sort of pulsating energy of like, I need to jump out of my own skin. That's so, thank you for sharing that. That makes all the rest of us, I think, feel loads better. It's fascinating. Oh, I've done way weirder, but I honestly think I've sort of blocked them out in a PTSD sort of mind blank. I interviewed Clint Eastwood way back when I worked for The Observer, and it was the first major interview that they trusted me with. And it was a film junket for a film starring Angelina Jolie called The Changeling that he directed.

47:28I was given a grand total of 20 minutes, which for radio and TV sounds like a lot. For a print journalist, it's just not very much at all. I was so nervous and I really crafted my questions and all that. walked in he could not have been more charming or more charismatic he was 78 at the time he was so lovely to me but I remember asking him if it was true that he was a 20 pound baby because that was on his wikipedia page he was like no I was not that would be physically impossible but I think I was quite big like that's how nice he was I'm having flashbacks now we're on this subject that and making my toes curl.

48:07I've had another one. Oh, tell me. This was so bad. It's not even bad, like traumatic. It's just so weird. Okay. Oh, so odd. So I was interviewing Kings of Leon, who I love on a sort of, I'm a fan, a mega fan. And I've loved every single album. I've sort of studied lyrics. Like I'm obsessed with them. I've seen them live countless times. And I've interviewed them a few times. But on one occasion, It was probably one of the earlier interviews I'd done with them. It could have even been the first. And it was Caleb and Nathan. And we were chatting and the interview wrapped up and we ended up getting onto the subject of tattoos.

48:44I don't know how. And I... No, don't. No, I know where it's going. It's so bad. So I started sort of getting overexcited. And when obviously I'm nervous, I just talk and I don't stop. And I was sort of listing all of my tattoos. And I was like, oh, and the biggest ones on my foot. Then I reached down. I had laced up Converse on, so it's quite palaver to get them off. I unlaced the whole shoe. They just sat there watching me silently. Take my shoe off, take my sock off, then sort of showing them my bare foot in an interview setting. But it was the sort of 30-second silence that felt like an hour where I was unlacing my shoe.

49:21And they're probably thinking, why is she doing this? This has gone off the rails, hasn't it? We don't need to see her foot, and we don't care. and we've probably got eight other junket interviews to do. Can you get this mad fan out? Oh, fun. But do you know what I think it is, especially in those junket settings? You and I strive for connection in all aspects of our life. Here's my foot. Yeah, and in the junket, it's actually really hard because you're part of this conveyor belt. It is literally like that Hugh Grant scene in Notting Hill. So you're just like, here, love me, love my foot. Oh, I'm awful.

49:53But do you know what's interesting? So Phoebe was my first ever guest. So that was July 2018, that episode went out and Fleabag season one had aired but she obviously then went on to become mega like a mega star so Fleabag season two came out Killing Eve came out all of the other amazing stuff that she's done and she came back on How to Fail two years after that first episode to talk about what that level of success was really like and how actually there are failures within that And it was super interesting. I've only ever had a handful of guests back on, but it was so interesting to have someone who would experience this kind of global level of fame and success.

50:34And to have someone so self-aware and so insightful that she could really analyse all of that and say, well, actually, I regret this and I feel I failed at that. it's so interesting because we still collectively have this uh belief that when you reach a certain level of success or whether it is as sort of vapid as it being just fame that we're going to feel complete and everything's going to be all right and that we put those people on a pedestal that they're untouchable that they could never sort of feel pain or experience anything awful and it's all it's total nonsense yeah but it's hot even i fall into that trap and i interview people who are really famous all the time.

51:14And I still think they're better than me. They're more together than me. They don't, you know, show people their bare foot in interview settings. Not that you know. They might do. Shania Twain might do that all the time. Just as a little warm-up intro. Oh, I can't bear it. I learned a big lesson there. This has been very insightful, I would say. I love listening to your podcast as a fan, so I'm constantly learning from the work that you do. But it's so nice to really hone in on certain life lessons and things that we've respectively taken away. And I think, if anything, I feel more motivated to go and do that.

51:51And also, I think listening to these clips has made me really realise what a privilege it is to interview people. I never, and I know you feel the same, I never take it for granted that I get to have a deep, deep conversation with someone. We're asking people, strangers often, questions that we don't ask our own friends. So it's a total privilege. It really, really is. I want to thank you for having this idea. I've loved doing it. It was so wonderful trawling through our respective back catalogues. And actually, we didn't discuss which clips we were going to choose. But it flowed together so beautifully.

52:29And I think that we've covered so much ground. And I just want to thank you also for opening up these kind of conversations because you are the OG of the podcasting world. And were it not for Fern Cotton, we wouldn't, you know, a vast majority of us wouldn't be having these kind of conversations. So thank you for the work that you do. And I love you, mate. Mate, I love you so much.

52:53Candyman. Candyman. That was the name of the Christina Aguilera song that Alexandra Burke performed on The X Factor. We got there in the end. Elizabeth suddenly remembered that. afterwards and interrupted a conversation that we were having because she was so pleased that it had come back into her head anyway elizabeth that was the best i love you mate that was beautiful thank you so much for hanging out with me as always now if you're not already a how to fail listener please please listen to it on whatever podcast platform you're listening to this on right now because it's a completely brilliant concept exactly what we were talking about at the end there of seemingly successful people talking through times they felt they'd failed.

53:33Right, well I promised you I'd be doing a big reveal of some of the amazing people who are going to be joining me at this year's Happy Place Festivals. We're going to be in Chiswick in London on the 15th and 16th of July and Tatton Park in Cheshire on the 2nd and 3rd of September. so are you ready for this we have got johnny wilkinson tom grennan jovanna and tom fletcher adele roberts and kate holderness and vicky patterson they're just some of the people who are going to be at chiswick house and gardens then there's more we've got vex king nicole krensil nick grimshaw they're all going to be at tatton park along with the lovely adele and Kate again.

54:21Sophie Morgan, Aaron Roach-Bridgeman and Kel Spellman will all be hosting the festival stages again this year. They did a beautiful job last year. I'm so happy they're coming back. It's going to be gorgeous. Tickets are available from the Happy Place website now. They're already selling pretty quickly so I would get yourself online immediately if you want to be there. Honestly, I just can't wait. It's the highlight of my working year. I can't wait to meet loads of you in the flesh. All right then, normal service will resume next week so make sure you're back here for another Happy Place guest and in the meantime do come and say hey on Instagram at Happy Place Official and on Happy Place Book Club too because Elizabeth and I had great fun chatting about our favourite books and novels.

55:06Turns out we both love a bit of Agatha Christie. Massive thanks again to Elizabeth, to the producer Anushka Tate at Rethink Audio and to you for sharing all of these amazing conversations with us. I love you loads.