How Trinny Woodall deals with rejection: Learning from failure and feedback

0:00Before we start, this episode contains some chat you might find difficult to hear. So do check the show notes if you think that might be you. Hello and a huge welcome to Happy Place with me, Fern Cotton. This is the show that meets you wherever you are in your emotional growth. Today, I'm chatting to Trini Woodall. Do I regret I took drugs for 10 years? There were circumstances in it I really were horrible, but I actually don't because it gave me such a depth of having to deal with life at an early age, some testing things, that it rounded me up more as a person. So when I got into my 30s, I had a lot of experience to draw on to be resilient.

0:42So thereby, I don't regret that. It happened and I should draw upon it. How are you enjoying your summer so far, you lovely lot? We're in the summer holidays. Kids are off. The juggle is real. I feel like I've already done all of time out in the first week they've been off school. God help me. We've done the aquarium. we're off to a we're off to a museum where there are planes with my parents next week so we'll see how that goes down one kid excited one not fussed but you can't win them all but I think we are we're sort of one step away in my house from getting the egg boxes out to try and just make shit out of egg boxes because how how do we keep more screens how for six weeks it's so hard I mean we're not going to is the key what we need to do is give ourselves a break because sometimes you've got to let them go on the PS5 so you can like have a wee and clean the kitchen.

1:38So it's balance, isn't it? It's a bit of everything. But I hope your summer is okay so far. If you are perhaps having a little moment to yourself while the kids are on screens, or if you haven't got kids, you're just having a nice walk in the sunshine maybe, or maybe you're on your way to work, whatever you're up to, I think this chat will accompany you greatly. I loved every minute of this conversation. And by the way, this was one of the chats where I'm a real nerd and I have my notebook that I carry with me everywhere. It's got all of my notes in for each episode. I've never done this before, but I went rogue and I ditched my notepad halfway through because Trini gets me doing something quite physical.

2:18We'll get to this bit. So I put my notepad down and I didn't pick it back up again. And I think I might try and do that more often, just like I'm such a control freak. I need to let go more often. So we go rogue on this one, guys. So let's talk about Trini, who I think obviously so many of us grew up with on TV shows like What Not to Wear. And obviously who's gone on to have an absolutely huge career in fashion and beauty. But behind all of that incredible glamour, she's experienced some real lows. My gosh, it's given her the opportunity to learn so much about herself, about being an entrepreneur and about connecting with people too.

2:54We talked about women earning more than their partner in marriages. And if you are obviously in a heterosexual partnership. And that was a really fascinating chat and one that I've certainly not had before on this podcast. We also talked about successfully pitching your big ideas to other people, which can feel cringy and scary and you can feel completely unsure of yourself. That was a real good bit of the chat. and we do get on to talking about losing her husband to suicide which was a really emotional part it was a moment where sort of time seemed to stop when we were chatting about that it was um i really appreciate talking about it because it's not bloody easy also trini does an impromptu physical energetic exercise which i alluded to a moment ago to get yourself somewhere comfy if you can so you can join in with us.

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5:52Right, let's do it. Here's the show.

6:16um should we unofficially start the thing we just we've sort of we've already kind of started because we're just going to continue in that vein talking about i love this coming hey thanks i love it we've both worn blue today because i was like fucking hell what am i gonna wear to interview trilly this is a nightmare obviously color blocking had to be involved so i'm wearing a two-piece little matching suit, but failed to iron it, so the clown trousers are a little bit creased. Okay, well, it looks like it's purposeful. Does it? Okay, we're going with it. Because it was one of those mornings where it was just a shit show in my house where kids wouldn't put shoes on.

6:48You just wanted the colour to take you through the day. And it is. It is. I love this. We've got three-piece in blue. We are three-piecing in blue. I haven't worn this for ages, and I thought I want to wear a colour that feels good because I just had a long few days, and I just wanted to, you know, the colour that will carry you through the day. So this is a little icy, but it's nice. I love it. And it's cozy and comfy. My favourite videos of yours are when you're in your wardrobe and you're picking out stuff. And one thing that you are brilliant at is keeping things for a very long time that you know you will use again and again, but in a different way.

7:18Yeah, I love that. You're just always like, let's throw this skirt on that I've had for a thousand years, but I'm going to wear it as a hat. Yeah, exactly. Just going to mix it up. Why not wear it as a hat? I like to repurpose. It's my favourite. I love your videos. I've wanted to interview you for a very long time because you have lived a life, a life of chapters as well, where you can see there are these. I think a life well lived is definitely one where there's been defining chapters that you move through and that you learn from and that you reinvent and do something completely different. When you sit here today and look back at your, I mean, I'm going to call it a roller coaster.

7:54We probably all feel like we've had a bit of a roller coaster. But when you look back at your life, how do you feel? I feel everything is lots of people always would say to me the art of reinvention and I would counteract and say it's about the evolution so I think there's a really big difference between reinventing yourself because I've done quite different careers I've traded commodities I've done telly I was a writer I've done books and now I run a business so they're all very different and And yet every little bit that I've had along the way as experience or disaster got me to here. Yeah. So I feel everything is getting me to now.

8:32Yeah. And I do look at life like that. There was time in my life when I stopped looking back and I made that conscious decision to not look back. So I guess the word reinvent also. It sort of assumes that you're ditching your whole self to become and you're not like you say, you're evolving from what you've learned from. And, you know, I've everything you've done. Yeah. Like you personally is to do with where you're at now. The ability to interview people is because of your experience in the past. Yeah. You know, it's all it's all building up something. Yeah. I mean, it's all very exciting. I mean, obviously, there's challenges with all of these different iterations of your life and your career.

9:12Have any of those moments of evolution felt like you were doing it for survival? Because I certainly feel like that in parts of my career. It's like I am evolving and I'm going to, like a butterfly hopefully, come out of this and I have to. Like this is survival. I mean, sometimes it's not and it's like, oh, I'm going off on a tangent. How interesting. Sometimes I think it's survival. Have you felt like that? So many times I could need more than fingers and toes. I mean, times where it's financial survival. Yeah. Times where it's emotional survival. Times where it's geographical survival. you know leaving a place because I'm thinking this is life is not going well I have to kind of change but all of them and I think probably the one consistent one is financial of just you know doing a certain career getting to a stage of earning a certain amount then having changes in someone's life I went also through phases where I was sole breadwinner with my partner so the responsibility of myself my extended family my partner and then the weight of that as well so you know then it's sort of do I do something because I just want to do it or do I have to do exactly what I'm still doing because it's a way that I can know that at the end of the day I can pay those bills it's a really interesting subject that one that doesn't really get talked about ever is where the female is the breadwinner in a relationship and it feels treacherous to talk about perhaps um in so many different ways whether it's why treacherous I think because I well I think it's not talked about at all yeah and I think it's let's talk about partly because it feels icky to talk about money especially as a woman and I'm not necessarily saying that I feel like that I just think it generally that might be the feeling yeah and I think perhaps it's also seen as kind of I don't know we wouldn't be taking a feminist stance if we were to say I'm finding this really hard or there should be another way I don't know it just feels all very murky and tricky and it's quite new because if I look at my parents or certainly my grandparents my nans didn't work they were kind of told yeah you're not working you know you're staying at home to look after the children these newer generations are the first lot with that different modality and often the woman is still doing the line share of housework or child care or whatever so the imbalance perhaps feels bigger what's your experience of it how do you feel about it where do I start um I think it doesn't matter who's the main breadwinner as long as there is in some ways an equality of responsibility if you have kids of responsibility for the kids of parenting of looking after the home and that's exactly what you're saying is when there isn't the equality is when it's an issue um and it can work equally the other way that some a man can go out to work really hard and the woman will feel like being ignored whatever and he's feeling the stress of work I mean it's it's a really difficult one as you say to navigate but I can only speak speak from my experience so I had a period when I was you know my husband earned more money than me and then that evolved and then he also wasn't always well so there was sort of added things in there and I think the biggest challenge for me was when Lila was four and I had stopped working in England because we'd done What Not To Wear and we'd done a show for IGV and then it was like contracts not being renewed you know that thing of well I get there it's August it's like it's that renewal time renewal of anything and that that sense of will I still have a contract so we sort of felt what we might be offered might not be what we want to do and what the work we were offered then was out of England but it meant for a lot of the year I left London on a Sunday and came back on a Friday so there were two things one was I wasn't there for Lila so much and I looked at it that she was younger and she had Johnny and she had Jenny who helped us look after Lila and I look back at that time and I think what did Lila lose out by my saying okay I'm not going to change my job to stay in the UK because my only decision was the one where I could keep the life we had if I went to do that job and that was the decision I made I could have made a different decision say well downsize we'll do this we'll do that which further down the road I had to for other things but at that time that was my thought and then I think it was it was just at certain times even in that it's quite challenging because you then I am a control freak so I'm wanting to know what's going on at home and is everything okay and and then also trying to keep that focus on what I was doing which was filming in India or Israel or Poland or wherever I happen to be so that was challenging but sometimes I think you find no alternative so you go with what you've got to do and if you question it too much that's even harder because you might be opening a can of worms yeah so you just think I'll go with what I know I can do I'll go with the skill set I know I have and you keep things chugging along yeah and also I think like when we get to these crossroads there's big decisions and it impacts the family or our careers or whatever you can always end up in a place of guilt if you like you overthink it like you say you go oh god maybe I shouldn't have done that or how has it impacted my child or sometimes it feels like there's no good option yeah you've just got to do got to go with your gut I guess it's instinct isn't it I find and I don't know why this is but in my personal life I try not to do should would could but in my work life I sometimes find it more challenging so when as CEO I'm making decisions and we do things and stuff happens and I go I wish we and I find really don't say that because it's like you can't go back on the past and it also demoralizes a team so you've got to think all right what can we do so you know my emails a few years ago I wish we'd done you know I thought how is that ever going to fucking help anyone yeah um and so what what how else can I change my language um so that we can think of all right let's not repeat this or let's think of something else but in personal life I I think I learned very early on there can be harsh consequences to things so when you've made the decision and you've taken that path you've taken that path how interesting I would say I'm probably the exact opposite like at work I'm kind of like yeah like I'll just make a decision and then I won't think about it too much and things go wrong all the time as you know it's part of all of it and some of it's really challenging but you sort of get over it but in my personal life I lose sleep over so many decisions I've made or things that I've could have done differently and that I find so much more challenging.

16:07So how are brains working differently if we do that what do you think that says about both of us Per? I don't know I mean I'm sort of intrigued I think a lot of it probably comes from what you learn in childhood like most of our sort of how our personalities are informed and our set of values or whatever it might be I guess it's so many tiny incremental variations of life that lead you to that place but I don't know I think I think it's about self-worth and trust do you think yeah I do I think when our self-worth is in a great place that applies to our personal life because then we value our love for ourself and therefore how people treat us in their life and decisions we make so I think that's very my personal life and with work my wooden should could comes from trust trust of the team trust they're making the right decision trust I'm making the right decision is it more about trust they're just too so if in my personal life I have times of questioning it's about my self-worth and in work it's about trust that's how I separate it out I need to let that one really digest for me because I totally get that I totally get that and I think when you especially when you look at the work bit when you love what you do yeah and you so desperately want it to be perfect if I'm talking from my perspective I want things to go really bloody well it's hard to trust because you've got to let go relinquish control yeah Let other people do things and hope for the best some of the time.

17:44And that is a tricky one. Where does your sense of, I guess, in your work life and your personal life, your sense of confidence come from in what you're doing and those decisions you're making? Like you say, you know, maybe you learned a lot of these lessons early on in life and you understood there would be consequences to things in your actual life. Are there any moments in particular that stand out, maybe in your early years, where you thought that was a lesson I really didn't want to learn but I had to and it's given you the resilience the drive the confidence I think when you have an idea for something so I had an idea of something before I started Trinity London in 98 Susanna and I were doing a column in the Telegraph and the internet came about and there wasn't even e-com but I loved it I'd always loved tech.

18:32I had my first Apple in 84, right? I'd been obsessed. And so I said, Susanna, we want to do something online because I think everyone's going to go online. We need to do stuff. So I did for a weekend this fast I was doing in this avian bottle and it was this red powder. And I think because I just wanted clarity. And somebody said, if you have a good idea to have two days where you just have this fast and your brain will become clearer. All right. So after day two, my brain was fried and I felt shit. You felt hungry. Day three, I had clarity. So I wrote down what I felt the idea was and I shared it with Susanna.

19:09And then we went off to see Cable & Wireless, which is a now defunct company, but they were a company who had done some promotion with a horse whisperer, which had a CD-ROM, CD-ROM, let's take back to those days. Yeah, a floppy disk. Yeah, which had something to do with e-com. And not e-com, but just online. I think they had a site online and anyway. but I just thought they're the people who know stuff I mean that's how embryonic it was so we went to see this one we said we wanted to you know have a destination online women call it ready to have all these different you know cooking area beauty area clothing area everything and she said what money you wanting to raise I said 500 ,000 Susanna kicked me hard under the table because this was not in the script and um and she said why the fuck do you ask and I said well I just had to have a number out of my head so then two weeks later we get an email I think there were emails by then and she said you you did not ask the right amount we're going to we think it's 650 thousand pounds you need um and um you know I was like what do you want in return she said well we want the logo of cable and wireless on on the website so then we started a business from that and then we raised money and it was a time called dot-com boom it was when everybody was making it so it was a time when you'd go to there would used to be this red herring conference so Michael from calm was talking about it I was talking it was really early cowboy days so very quickly we hired 60 people and I thought I'm not I don't know how to run a business so I'll hire a CEO I don't know how to market this thing so I'll you know so literally Suzanne and I were the founders I worked crazy at it yeah uh in a in an intense overworking way I'd call Suzanne around at 8 30 she just had a baby and say where are you and she'd say I'm breastfeeding and I said well when are you coming in you know there wasn't even how is the baby you know it was very all my attention was on this but I did hire in these people thinking I'm not qualified to do this I sort of have an intuitive idea and within 18 months maybe two years we had to close business and Susanna was going off having another baby and I had to close the business and I remember sitting now in this tiny office because we'd had to give up the lease I had to let everyone go I'd wanted to give them all three months salary they were really great set of girls and I sat there in this office feeling really low thinking what the fuck is next you know and I went off to a retreat in Arizona called Cottonwood which is a rehab but they do retreats for afterwards when you're just doing work on yourself and you're in recovery and it was it's called an inner path workshop so it was about getting to know yourself looking at your fears and all that stuff and I remember doing this cacti walk through a bit of the garden looking out at the desert and I had that moment of saying I don't necessarily a higher power is that concept of something that is stronger than you and I just said whatever's going to come has come but let me be open to whatever is going to come so I'm open I'm not trying to write the script I'm surrendering because it's you know this last six months has been hell and I came back to England and Susanna and I about nine months before we're done pilot for the BBC and then they called up and said will you do the show about two weeks after so but that moment had really made me question all these things about how much do you trust your intuition around something versus thinking I'm not professional at this so somebody else should do things so when I started Trini London nine years ago I mean ten years ago I had the idea but we launched seven a bit years ago I did the opposite of what I did then so I thought I'm not going to hire any big cheese yet.

22:41I need to learn as I go. I can't have somebody also come in with a really good business frame, but too early decide the trajectory of the business when I think I've spent many, many years building up a knowledge of women around the world. I'm using all of that to build this business, to deliver something I think people need. So I've got to trust my gut. Yeah. And I have this big thing, the difference between intuition and instinct. So if I think of instinct for me it's you know step away from the stove it's hot yeah and it's generally for me a stepping back it's like you know whereas intuition is something is hitting you in your stomach and it will guide you forward so I nearly think one is more positive than the other you know instinct can be protective you know you run down the street and there's a car coming at you you know you instinctively get out of it yeah but intuition is more interesting and it's when we really value our intuition so in those early days of trini london i had to really value and say trini you know know that you know women in this way know that you you know stick to remembering this and moments when i felt will anyone ever get the idea you know i saw lots of people to raise money once i kind of got to a certain stage and i saw 250 people and one did you know so just that when you it's like being an actress where you're continuously turned down for a role so you've got to leave the role you You know, you've got to leave and think how much of it was the fact it's a shit idea.

24:05How much of it was that they're just looking for something else? How much of it was that maybe they saw some people this morning and in fact they never want to invest in this area anyway? So I had to really try and objectively judge why somebody had rejected me. That's so hard though because especially when it's happened on multiple occasions to not lose confidence in your idea. I don't know how you do that. You never, it's similar to me to when I was trying to have Lila because I had IVF and I never gave up, but I never thought I'd get pregnant. So I sat in this little in-between space, you know, where I, it keeps you going.

24:42It's called the keep it going space. Yeah. I like that. I mean, is that just part of your personality? Because I don't think everyone's like that. I think a lot of people would go, I give up now. I can't take it anymore. This is soul destroying in either of those situations. There were times earlier in my life when I did want to give up, for sure. I think when I got clean at 26, I'd lived a lot of life, a lot of life, you know, and I'd really had some situations where I just felt, you know, I've seen a lot. So that was an opportunity to start over. And I think that starting over did help me to decide what do I actually want from life?

25:20Do I want a life? What do I want from that life, you know, versus the alternatives? And I had quite a few friends around me who died at that time. My six closest friends over two years died. So it was a real thing. I could be there or I could be having a life. So I think when I think of that in-between zone, maybe it was started to be built then. Yeah. You know, because I was always before then feeling I was walking on quicksand. Yeah. And then I started to build a little brick and I stood on that and build another little brick and stood on that. I mean, that is true resilience because I think even, you know, losing six friends in two years is overwhelmingly bleak.

26:02And you could either go, I am going to feel so grateful that I am simply alive. And, you know, like that, it's such a sort of strange, cliché reaction to death. you know I've lost friends over the years and you do feel utterly horrendous yet weirdly buoyed by the idea that you're alive and that you should actually really remember that rather than just coasting through life but I think when you've lost multiple people whether it's friends family members in a in sort of close proximity you could either really sink in that and go I'm now terrified what if I die and get that real acute anxiety that it's coming for you or grab life by the balls and go for it yeah and again is that just that's your personality that's who you are I think it always needs reinforcement fun I think you've got to feed it because you can have it so I think that gave me the understanding to have it but then when I've had blue moments or moments of I have to get to a certain stage where I think I don't want to go on like this and then I think okay what have I got to learn now so when I was in that stage of feeling total rejection of people I then had this fantastic man who did guided meditations with me and very specific ones and like visualizations yeah so so he did these visualizations of one of them was that I was you know a globe and I was sitting on a chair above the globe but I was looking at all the packages going all around the world so I thought of that BA we fly to you know as a visual and I did that and then I did this other one a lot which was just for energy and we'll do it should we do it together?

27:47Okay we'll do it together and we'll do it we'll do it with everyone I need this today on shit weekend So we're going to do this together and everyone who's listening Why are we taking our jewellery off? Is that a thing? Just because I feel I'm aware like this with the mic It's not like ruining our chi or something No that's I don't even know what chi is so no it won't ruin it Alright so this is something where it's about energy so you can keep your eyes closed or you can open them but I quite like things but you're just going to start start with your eyes open and you've got something the size maybe of a small football in your hands and it's in front of you so in front of your ribs you put your hands out and you just feel around that ball with your hands so you go to the top and bottom of it you go to the sides of it so you feel in front of you is this circular ball and just sort of go around it with your hands and now you can close your eyes and still feel that ball and feel that that ball is a golden orb and really feel nearly the heat coming off it as you just put your hands around it and feel the light coming from it and it's really getting stronger and stronger and even just feel the end of your fingertips and feel is there even a tiny tingle because you can feel that light so strongly.

29:10And you keep going around this ball and you feel the energy of that ball. And then you're going to open your eyes and you're going to thrust it in your heart. I'm actually scared the shit out of me. Thrust it in your heart. I feel that energy. Go in your body. Yeah. Okay. So I would do that. I'd do that. I'd do that sitting in my car going to an investor meeting feeling shattered and thinking can I get will I get anywhere but it really helped me to to have that feeling and and now when I because I think energy is something I physically feel a lot so when I don't have it I feel I don't have it yeah but when I feel it so now I can feel in my fingers I really feel my energy and then you can take your fingers together so if they're like they're touching each other and you can feel in between there is a sort of energy and then it's about how far out you can get where you still feel that sense of the energy and sometimes if you close your eyes it's easier and just really focus on that energy because that's what's making you alert and vibrant and alive and giving you that positivity and making you feel I can do it you know having that energy so sometimes just having that awareness of how full of energy we are physically and we just need to get it awake again.

30:30Yeah, absolutely. And I think it, I mean, I certainly sense that because I spend a lot of time doing this, you know, one-on-one with people. And so much of that is about energy. It's so little to do with what I'm saying, what the other person's saying. It's some sort of energetic transference that's going on that either feels really great and cool or, and, you know, not just in this circumstance, it might be with friends or people that are in your circle that make you feel great or don't and I think having that awareness that actually links perfectly to that whole intuitive feeling that we need to work from because it's all about that and the energy of going this is the right thing for me this is not the right thing for me and trusting yourself trusting yourself and these people who should be in my life more these are people I have to let go of because I think that's also that But, you know, I sometimes have been very occasionally around people because you and I both will have a lot of people come into our life.

31:26Yeah. Come and say hi or give a hug. I love that because I feel there's a lot of times where they need some energy from that encounter. So I will hug them so we can get some energy. You know, it's just like, you know, when you sense somebody needs energy. And there's other times when I feel an energy coming towards me and I think, hmm. So I kind of used to do this thing years ago. Susanna and I, when we toured, we had a lot of people who, and I would brush off. Yeah. You know, brush off that energy and then wash my hands of salt when I got home. Yeah. So awesome. You know, just little things of just cleansing the energy.

32:04Little rituals. Yeah. Because otherwise this is a lot. It's a lot to go home and take all that home with you, whatever it is. If it's meetings or, you know, and you go and do these events and you've got queues of women who will desperately want to hear advice from you or just, yeah, be near you, give you a hug. That's a lot. The market's uncertain. Revenue's tied and hiring on hold. That's why results-driven companies are using Upwork to keep work moving. Go to upwork.com today and start hiring proven freelance talent fast. No bulky overhead. No rigid long-term contracts. Just the right expert right when you need them.

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34:25When we think specifically again about these meetings that you're going to and you're wanting to start your business, you will not give up. You've got this idea and you're jolly well doing it whether people are going to be backing you or not. and you keep going to these meetings, would you say also starting a business in that era of your life, would you have applied ageism to any of the rejection you got? Sexism to any of the rejection you got? It's so easy that we could say yes because I think today that any of those are still possible and in the future they will be possible. It's about who you bring in the room as in the part of me I bring in the room.

35:04so do they see my age or my sex before they see what I'm trying to talk to them about so I've always felt I haven't felt there isn't a glass ceiling but I felt I never bring myself in as a woman I come in as a person and I'm telling you an idea but there's certain ways that I want to bring somebody into the world and what I want to create which are very feminine and if you're in a very masculine environment there's a different way they need to see what it is you're doing so sometimes I would write afterwards if I got rejection I would say can you just tell me why you didn't invest and sometimes they'd throw me about something which is just a throw her off and other times they were candid and it was very helpful because I then had to look at was this person somebody who just you know one or two said to me it's great you should do it for 15 year olds because women over 35 won't go online I was like sorry really you just said that that's hilarious that was hilarious but that you know so I had a few things like that so I would leave that meeting and think they don't know what they're talking about but that's fine because I believe in this thing so then then that's kind of a clear one then there's slightly unclear ones where they might say something else and you think okay is there a point so with certain times I would go and I'd say we're going to do this and this and I'm going to do that and that at the same time and and there's a linear way I think a more masculine energy approaches is concepts and there's a bring you into the world of which is a more feminine thing like bring you into my house show you everything so I then in you know one of these I thought okay maybe I just they couldn't follow it not because they're stupid they're smart people but just the way I told what I was going to do so the next time I went I said you know I'm going to do this when I've done this we have options of a and b but I'm going to do that you know and it was this linear way of describing how the business would grow and then it was like I had a different audience so there were things I had to learn about you know people at the beginning have a great a lot of people pitch to me now I do this thing called elevator yeah I love it and it's sort of when somebody feels they want to just tell you everything all at once but the order is something they're just used to saying it that way but in fact so sometimes when those ladies do the elevator pitch and I think they didn't do themselves justice.

37:27So I say, okay, tell me about the business. And I say, okay, pitch me again. Because they just, you know, sometimes we get so used to this as a way we tell a story. We need just a fresh set of eyes and thinking, how can I represent the story? It's still the same thing at the end of the day they want to do, make or service they want to offer. But how you let somebody else know about it and the words you use is really important. It is. And I love that you're doing that because there's so many women out there who've got bloody great ideas that don't know where to start with getting that idea out there, how to have that level of autonomy in life to start their own business, run their own business, be, you know, forging their own path.

38:02It's really, really important. And like you're saying, you know, I went on Grace Beverly's podcast recently to talk about Happy Place and all the stuff we're trying to do there. And we got into this discussion about how the business model just generally is a very masculine energy, forward moving thing where it's just, there's no stopping and it can be like hustle. It can be aggressive. You know, it's really full on. And actually, it doesn't have to be that way. And I don't believe that it has to be particularly quick. I'm not looking for Happy Place to be like the biggest well-being thing in the world.

38:37I just want it to keep going. I just want to have the opportunity to keep incrementally growing and try new things, which feels like more of a feminine energy way of doing business. But it's really tricky because it is harsh and that hustle culture mentality. And also, I think when you're looking at just actually being a woman and running a business, all of the other stuff going on in your life, whether it is, might not be, but child rearing or menstrual cycles or menopause, none of that is brought into the conversation of running a business. And it's a very different thing running a business as a woman than it would be for a man.

39:17how how are you navigating that or is that something you consciously think about when running Trinity London I think I'm quite masculine so when I listen to you I think if you're growing a business you're growing a business there's different ways to grow a business you can have a different expectation a different ambition for the business I think ambitions can be financial ambitions can be passion-led ambitions can be I need to prove yeah I think there's three or four different ways we're ambitious and it can be a combination of all of them so I think that a man's sense of success might be I'm that would be really a b to say financially led because I think it's a passion to succeed whereas a woman's passion is a passion to move the dial you know there's so that I think there's is that a more feminine energy than a male so I definitely think I in in some ways I have a very feminine energy but I think how I look at the concept of you know if you want to build a business and if I look at the stats so I'm going to give you some stats go on I'll have a start just to see where are we at with this so there's a hundred people who start a business and they go for investment two women will get investment and 98 men all right so first of all that is probably because there's only 17 percent of women who are on the other side of the table saying whether they'll give you their money or not.

40:47So that's kind of already a little bit tricky. And that as that falls off, so somebody gets to build a business and they build it to a certain size and another size, those numbers dramatically go down. So there's in fact only 87 women in the UK doing over£50 million a year. Now,£50 million a year is a lot of money, but there are many, many businesses doing that. So that probably is a sort of maybe if we're lucky an eight percent ratio I don't know yeah right so there's in it definitely being the mom all of that then there is menstrual cycle and yeah menopause I don't have either so I don't have either so that's been removed from me yeah um and so it's not something that I probably consider yeah in my realm of things but I did a lot of research on menopause because I went in to menopause at 45.

41:38Yeah. I'd done 16 IVF and I wasn't told until I saw an endocrinologist that actually, you know, I had 12 eggs a year was be the normal cycle, but I'd probably had about 50 eggs a year removed from me through IVF. So I just depleted, you know, quicker as it were. Just going back to that sense of what we want from a business, if we build a business. I think there's a little element of, and I think this word ambition is really interesting. And I've been thinking about it a lot because I have something I'm doing in October, which is to do with ambition. And it's about how much is it a dirty word? Yeah.

42:17And how much is it actually something, if you live in America. Oh, it's the greatest celebration. It's the greatest thing. And sometimes people just can't stop talking, all right? But they will celebrate and be enthusiastic and build up other people. That's why whenever I go to America, that's probably, it like fills my tank of that. Yeah, I bet. So I come back thinking anything is possible. Now, the difference in America is everyone will say yes and then one person will do something. Okay, but there's an enthusiasm. Yes. All right, versus here is 99 people say no, but then that one person will say yes and then they will carry it out.

42:50Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which one is better? I can't say which one is better. But which one gives me a lot of joy is that environment of anything is possible. And when you place somebody in that environment, anything is possible, then they don't have to make those decisions about do I do it for passion or for money or for my self-worth or, you know, it's just like. They just try it. They just try it and they work for it. But one thing I do know that stops businesses working, because I've come across this and I've even I've been in this situation twice myself, is we can be growing something. It could be tiny.

43:25You could have just made your first business of menstrual pants. All right. I need those. All right. And and you're doing it all yourself, etc. But it's you're hitting some tough obstacles. So you think, oh, I love the idea also of doing something with paper cups. So let me just start my side hustle. all right and so you you sort of create a few more spinning plates because you'll think this one's not pushing through totally so let me just take some energy because I got lots of energy and put it there because I got a got a bit of a barricade here and there's the single-mindedness that you do need if you want to build a business and if we deviate too much and that's where I think it maybe is a more feminine trait a little bit yeah um to deviate a bit of just sort of thinking you know let's because we want to kind of continuously have this passion for something and create and create and create so great yes about creation so and we could have endless creation but my mum who was a stay-at-home mum also started lots of little things so she had the top we lived in germany she had task force the townish advisory service corporation Sean and she would help people who'd move to Frankfurt to find a school and whatever.

44:39Yeah. She did it. She had the stationery printed. She had it for about nine months. Yeah. She was the concierge. And then she, yeah, but she had it nine months and then it filtered out. Right. She had fake antiques. Fake? She had it for a year, you know, like, like, you know, looking like old antiques. Oh, right. Okay. You know, what are they called? Whatever. You know, re-reduction furniture. Re-reduction furniture, right? And there was little cards printed. She had a card, had it for about a year. maybe a year and a half we have a lot of that furniture still so you know my mother was a great starter but when she came across some frustrations then she'd just stop and then you know we're finding so when I started and I was wanting to be an entrepreneur my first entrepreneurial thing was I was 16 at school and I started this hair business called bows unlimited so very keen lots of hair bows princess Diana was all the rage yeah all these hair bows and so we you know I did it with this partner and we got fabric from markets in Berwick Street, which really had stalls outside at this time.

45:39This is in the 80s. And then we found sewers. I didn't know how to sew. We found these brilliant women to sew and we did a template. And then we went up to Fortobello, which then was a very cheap market. And we bought beautiful reproduction brooches for one pound each. And then we charged 18 pounds a bow. So we had good markups, sold them to Harvey Nichols, you know, walked the streets, loved it but then Katie wanted to go off and do her bath plug invention and become an artist so at 17 and a half it stopped but it gave me the bug of I loved that so then I went off and I did what I felt I should do which my dad was in business I'm the one youngest of six kids but I had no qualifications and I was unbelievably shit at school hardly any O levels and hardly any O it was something I always we can't say this again on things because I always would push Lila that you have to get what I can do and my kids are like In the bit where they need to do the homework.

46:29I might not have been truthful. Now she's 21. It's okay to think. But, you know, there was moments where I said, Lila, you have to try. So that was terrible for me. So then I went into the arse end of commodity trading because my dad was in the city. Hated it. Hated it. Me and 56 men, 60 men. I was appalling at it, selling Anglo-American funds. There was a film outside called Trading Places, a commodities film. I thought it would be glamorous and fun. It was just shit sales work. calling up strangers and trying to get them to invest I mean, talking to them about the markets I hated it so much so I did quite a year of that, then I did another business so I got to know all these traders this is just about repeating my mother, it's getting back there is a point of story I notice all my male friends at this time only have one sock you know, the second sock disappears so I found this business of another friend called Socket to You and this sold socks so I went and down the Thames there was a factory called Barter.

47:25It's an Eastern European factory and they made socks. Fantastic. Went and did a deal with them. I got navy socks, black socks and brown socks, short and long, you know, and I got really pretty girlfriends who were in between school and uni to go around with these big baskets onto the trading floors and short skirts. Hello, darling. I love it. And they sold so many socks. I mean, like, it was doing really, really well for about three months. I thought, oh my God, this is cash cow. You've done it. and then the socks started to fall apart so the glue went the dye went they were just appallingly I I learned a lot about about making socks no I learned nothing about it no I learned but no about um you know when you want to really check like when I do formulations now I'm so like have we checked have we checked pilling have we checked you know yes everything so you you my brain is gone this morning anyway um so that business then many years later like my mother's restoration furniture i found those goddamn socks in every garage in every nook and cranny of every place so it put me off you know that sense change it to sock puppets like there's another business plan coming out of it there was another business plan after called mission impossible which was a business that like a concierge service yeah i was following my mother in this yeah the socks were the reproduction furniture task international became mission impossible it was a concierge service in london like this one now called um that this guy does um that you would have heard of anyway there's this concierge service now so i did this but you know i printed the stationery it's very important when you start a business then it was to print station because it made you feel it was real yeah absolutely it's a black and white look i have a card yeah you know so now bring them back yeah bring them back some people have actually i went to founders forum which is a tech conference last week and the amount of people have business cards i was like so 80s i love it yeah but they were really heavy heavy techie guys and i was like great they it's a novelty to them That's why they're there.

49:14So the thing of starting and having a focus and thinking, what's my end goal? So you have to have lots of failures. Do you have to be obsessional? And also, is there ever a time when you should give up? That's such a good question. Because if you've been to 300 investment meetings and you are turned away again and again, is there a point where I don't know you work you look at the data and you think this is actually now not worth my while or do you just always stick to your guns and keep plowing forward I think you have to listen to what's happening so at the time that I went out fundraising I'd had a bit of money because I'd sold my clothes and so I had a bit of cash I'd done a SEIS it's a scheme where you can raise 150 grand so for a year and a half I invested that in prototypes and formulations and stuff so I was starting to get women in my bathroom and putting makeup on them and so when I was going to investors and I think oh it's this terrible idea I then would have one of those sessions the women say this is such a great idea when are you making it and it gave me that hope that even though these guys didn't believe these women were my customer and they were saying I love this idea so that gave me such faith that that's when I had to kind of be because sometimes we're a child in our you know we're quite childlike in our sort of we go there and it's like asking daddy on you know but we have to we have to really embrace what we don't realize we already know and that's a self-worth thing of like trini know that you know women know that you've traveled the world meeting women and you know when they're feeling a bit weird you know what can feel them better you know sometimes outside in can be a way of healing so they can get to the inside and look at themselves in the mirror and feel okay what do I need to look at now it just gives somebody that next step.

51:07Oh my god without doubt the like we just talked to Dieter Von Tees about that like having a and almost what's a uniform for her where you know the hair is a certain way and the makeup is a certain way and although I'm not like as distinct with what I look like if I didn't have clothes I felt good in or makeup on or do my hair in a way that makes me feel good which might not see what other people I don't know how I wouldn't be able to pull myself out of the house to have a conversation I need and I think again that can seem like frivolous for women that this is something that we obsess over or whatever but I think if it makes you feel good like you say start on the outside then do the inside bit once you're able to leave the house because you actually feel all right about yourself I love and I don't want anyone to take the wrong way who's listening but I love studying women so when I people always say oh I'm sure you're judging how somebody's dressing I never judge it I observe it I'm fascinated to know because I always used to think if I look at how somebody dresses I will be able to a little bit know what's going on inside yeah by little things they do by you know some people by how much makeup they still wear when their skin is good I know they probably had acne at one stage and they're still just covering up you know I know if somebody tense themselves that they feel uncomfortableness with their body in some ways so you just sense these things and then you can kind of figure out a few things and I went to something this weekend which was a real mix of people in it but there were some people in it who were unbelievably high-powered women in the UK in different things in sort of civil service and and and business and I find it really interesting when I see people who've becoming very successful but sometimes you never know their name what they're like and how they bring themselves to the table in a social environment, for example.

52:55You know, so somebody who we'd all expect to see severe and whatever was this fabulously glamorous. And I just find that I love observing it. I really love observing it and just seeing what what brings us together. But I do think that we need to, you know, a sign of looking out for yourself is a sign of loving yourself. And, you know, you can do all the psychology work on yourself. but this element of you know like a lot of people say oh training up you know so people from who maybe don't buy skincare or don't whatever and skincare is most of our business now but people will say oh um you do botox or you know why you know you therefore don't need skincare i'm like let me tell you why let me tell you about the ingredients and the ritual then there's lots of women who bought skincare when they were maybe they're 50 and they were in their 20s and skincare couldn't do what it does now because you can get things smaller molecule sizes you can do things You can do amazing things or you can do clinical trials and see skin change.

53:52So it's so different from when my mother for every problem gave me pond scream. My mother had great skin. I had acne. Pond scream. I just burnt myself in Portugal in the sun. Pond scream. You know, it was like that was the only solution because she had no concept. That's the only one. Literally, that was it. But I think you're so right as well in the treating yourself nicely. I can even look back over my own life and go, I'll pull out old pictures from times I know that I was not feeling good mentally. And I found one picture a while back where it was a New Year's party. And this is years and years and years ago.

54:22And I know I was not feeling good about myself. And I had covered every inch of my body. I had a dress on, leggings, socks with the leggings, shoes, a cardigan over the dress. And I was just trying to hide. And I think, actually, when you start properly looking after yourself, that is such a sign that you've got self-compassion. you're forgiving of yourself you like yourself you want to treat yourself well most of the time i think for women we're taught to constantly take care of everybody else make sure everyone else is you treat them we feel really good about giving people gifts or treating people nicely and then we are awful to ourselves awful to ourselves so all those little moments of ritual or buying yourself a little treat it's all really important to show that you like yourself you give a shit about yourself would you say you like yourself today yeah when do you think you got you landed on that probably I'd like to say when I was turning 50 a friend of mine said when you turn 50 you won't worry what people think all right and I turned 50 but that year was a really tough year because some stuff happened in my life and it was tough so at the end of 51 I thought she was right actually looking back now I don't worry what people think and then turning 60 I thought I know what I don't want and knowing what you don't want is incredibly helpful yeah it really just cuts a lot of the shit out so I think I started loving myself probably I fully after 51 I think before then And there were things where there was a lot of stuff always going on.

56:10So I wasn't always loving myself. But I think that consistency of knowing myself, knowing my limitations, knowing myself. You know, we call this loving ourselves, but knowing ourselves. It goes hand in hand with it. Do you think you can fully love yourself and still have regrets? I think going back to earlier, it's that wouldn't, shouldn't, could. so do I regret that I didn't do more for my ex-husband to stop him killing himself no because there was nothing I could have done yeah so it's like to ponder on the regret of somebody who kills himself it can take you into the darkest hole but you can also know when somebody who is in that situation switches off and that is their path and nobody can get in okay so that I had to learn and I think there's some there's two fabulous charities who I know who you know look at that it's the biggest case of men dying under 50.

57:12Yeah I know so it's something that that is when things happen in your life like that do I regret I took drugs for 10 years there were circumstances in it I really were horrible but I I actually don't because it gave me such a depth of having to deal with life at an early age some testing things that it rounded me up more as a person so when I got into you know my 30s I had a lot of experience to draw on to be resilient so thereby I don't regret that it happened and I should draw upon it yeah I guess maybe it's the other way around like if you stop regretting things you'll actually end up quite liking yourself because you realise that it all, like we said at the start of this chat, it all leads you to where you are today and it informs how you see the world, how you move through it.

58:09Little things I regret a lot. I should have taken an earlier flight. I should have got the car, you know, three minutes ago. I should have hired a car. Why am I taking the car up to bloody, this weekend I sort of was five hours on the M1 in a crash. I was like, I should have taken the train. You know, I mean, that I do every bloody day. Those regrets we're fine with. Yeah, but I do them all the time. We can live with those. And then I go, stop it, Trinny. It's like you're in the bloody car. You can't go back or forward. Nothing you can do about it. Nothing I can do about it. How do we feel about sort of forgiveness?

58:35Because I think I'm talking about within your own decisions in life. Because I think you can still free yourself of regret, but find it very hard to forgive yourself for certain things. I've certainly found that. And actually, the more self-forgiveness I can cultivate, I'm much more forgiving to other people. I don't always land on that. But I think that one feels really tricky when we know we've fucked up or we know we've said something a bit stupid or we've acted from a place of fear and then we've been mean to somebody else. It's really hard to forgive yourself. I think a path to forgiving yourself is how quickly you let the other person know that you spoke too harshly or did something.

59:17Yeah. You know, and that's that's a part that is a part of forgiving yourself, because I've had circumstances, whether it's with my daughter or at work where I've been tough or I've been, you know, just like. And then I've, you know, said maybe I was really tough in that meeting. You know, I mean what I said, but I said it really inappropriately or, you know, just it's how quickly you own your error is that relationship of knowledge with yourself. And then once you do that, because what happens is when I do anything like that, I am wracked by guilt immediately. I have that bad feeling in my tummy.

59:55I've got that sort of, you know, when you haven't done the right thing, you know, that feeling your body will tell you straight away. And then all you want to do is not have that feeling. So it's like if I don't have that feeling, my self-worth will return because that is eating away at my self-worth. So then I need to repair the damage. you know and sometimes that can take time because you want to have instant repair and you can't it takes time it takes people saying okay but it's going to take me time and you have to then wait at somebody else's patience and that can ever weigh your self-worth because you're waiting for somebody else to feel better about it yeah so all those things make you think next time maybe not to behave that way but that self-worth comes with how we repair it yeah I agree I've got pretty good with my kids doing that like if I snap or yeah say something regrettable I'm quite quick to go mum's knackered sorry about that and then they actually now have learned to do the same which is great it's really harder with adult interactions to have that sort of humbling notion of like I've got to go and say sorry it's so cringy I've done it and it feels good I had one situation with someone where we'd fallen out and then we had this amazing moment I thought I'm going to step forward first and just apologize for my part it was both of us in a bad place and actually it was one of the most beautiful interactions i've ever had with a human and it's made us so much closer and we had you know we were racked both of us with that feeling of ickiness and this is not good and then the relief was it was absolutely instant the market's uncertain revenues tied and hiring on hold that's why results driven companies are using Upwork to keep work moving.

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1:03:02when it comes to parenting and especially parenting a daughter what have you felt passionate about teaching her or you know because obviously as a parent you have to let them make their own mistakes and that's incredibly hard but what have you felt like this she needs to know this i sometimes look and don't know how i've parented all right because i there's certain little things which are important so to be polite to other people etc etc and lila is super polite she you know as a teenager she was not always polite to me but you know she's super polite so i think okay somewhere that i just think it's you can get through a lot in life and sometimes i'm not a polite person by the way i can be quite loof or people think i'm i'm i'm because i'm shy inherently I can seem cold, you know, so people don't get the gist straight away.

1:03:51So with her, there is a difference with Lila because she and lots of people who might have children who were 16 when it was COVID. Yeah. All right. They weren't going out. There wasn't this kind of go out, go out madness. There wasn't that what time you're going to be in. So I had always said to Lila two main, I just give her philosophies. All right. Yeah. One philosophy I gave her is don't be drawn into drama. All right. Just don't be drawn into drama. I think I need to hear this. If somebody else is gossiping, because I used to be when I was much younger, I would use it as a currency to get myself worth up that people would want to hear what I had to say because I might know something.

1:04:28All right. And I did that when I was using that was my currency. All right. Oh, I know. Oh, I know. you know and when I was in rehab it was the thing I've the many things happen in life and I felt terrible about that that I'd use this currency of knowledge on people just to be in the room because I'd been very lonely at boarding school I went really really young and I found it very difficult to make friends so this was my currency that they would then acknowledge me and see me and you know until I was 15 and I was making over girlfriends and then that was my currency yeah but There was this time when I had that.

1:05:01So it became something I really disliked, gossip. I just find it so destructive. And so I would, you know, Lila once was for a day or not long, but she had somebody bullying her. And I said, Don, you have to go up to her and you have to say, are you OK? And she's going to say, well, yeah. And she's saying, and you need to go back to him and say, because you're being so mean that there must be something going on with you so can I help you which is really difficult to get a child to say yeah because she was maybe 11 at the time but she did say it and then it obviously you know bully is the most vulnerable person in the world it kind of diffused it but with her she isn't a gossipy girl so that that that thing to me as a value in life is to not be gossipy because I just see when I'm in environments where um maybe mums are gossipy it pervades to the kids so things there's so many things we inherently do which will pass on down which we're not teaching them they just see yeah and the thing is the things kids most learn is what they see not what they're told and it's scary that thought because we all do stuff as we're humans that we think oh shit I was yeah you know grouchy like whatever it is or I or I had a tantrum as an adult or whatever it is and you know you're doing you know you're doing it it's the worst or there's longer term things there's sort of you're making decisions and you might they might know you haven't made a decision on something yet and they're observing how long it takes you to make decisions or you know just it's the subtle things yeah so so I always also said to Lila but she didn't have the COVID thing that's when I come back to you yeah I said just go home when you're tired because the biggest thing to me is her dad was an addict who died in a way of addiction I have been an addict and I your biggest fear is that you know and her her brother they're both like do not like people really who do drugs yeah yeah so they you know having that go home when you're tired moment because Lila being an only child although her brother's 10 years older only children like their own space a bit so when she's tired there isn't that thing of keeping up with your sisters like I was the youngest I want to keep up with all my siblings you know I wanted to be the one out.

1:07:23Even if I was tired, I'd stay up because I wouldn't want to miss out on anything. You know, as a youngest child, I don't know anyone listening, but the youngest child doesn't know you'd want to miss out on anything. Lila doesn't have that. And interestingly, and it's a pro and con, she doesn't have to fight for her place in the family because she is the only one. Zach is like, you know, Zach. And we have also somebody we call a brother, Ezra, who sort of, you know, we help bring up a bit, but as much as 10 years older than Zach as well. But so they've been like her two nights and shine the armor they would never you know they'd be sweet to her she has them in here I'm showing the palm of my hand okay um so that so it is that difference between what you try and teach them by saying it which is what I think they least are going to do what you practice which has negative and positive consequences because of you know you might repetitively do things like I'm tough to travel with you know right so so whenever we go on holiday my um stepson Lila well I have this really good girlfriend of mine who doesn't have any kids she isn't married my age and i think they call us the puff princesses or something when we travel because we're just on a mission you know if something goes wrong we're like on a mission and they just they just say okay okay now let them let them have their moment you know let them change the hotel room let them you know change the ticket let them try whatever yeah my stepkids would often try and miss the first day of me going anywhere because i'm a nightmare for the first 24 hours because it's there's a new environment i don't know how like how did the windows lock like I'm freaking out about everything and then after 24 hours I'm on holiday it's the first day is absolutely shit yeah and then in terms of parenting how do you navigate grief as a parent because that you're going through it you you want to try and you can't protect a child from grief it's there and it's going to be there forever in some shape or form but you know that you want them to go through it in the smoothest way possible how do you approach that it's not something you can even prepare for i think grief is not a smooth path no you know i think it's um it's different because both of johnny's lila was 11 and zach was 21 and so you have an awareness of quite a lot but the concept of what death is is different at 21 from 11 so when i when i um heard about Lila's dad Lila was at school and my first challenge was how can I even tell her how can I say the words to tell her and so my sister was a friend of a woman called Julia Samuel who wrote an amazing book you know Grief Works and this two-shot part she's fantastic and Julia came around to our house and I just said I need some words and so she said you're gonna tell her he had a heart tech in his head wow okay and it was just sort of so she came back from school and came upstairs and immediately felt you know um why am I going upstairs I've just come back I usually go down the kitchen get something to eat and Zach was in the bedroom and we sort of lay around the bed and we told her and she screamed really loudly and there were quite a few people in the house and it was like an animal scream and then 20 minutes later she's downstairs getting a snack you know so children's absorption of what has happened is that so there's that gut you know she really loved her dad this thing is just you know and she can't quite understand it but she knows that he's not coming back in some daily way and then there's you know why they move forward to we had a cremation so then there's a real awareness there's a lot of people saying I'm so sorry about your dad Lila so she's sort of manic a little you know she was sort of running around with her friends and then there was a memorial only 10 days after that and there were like 1200 people in the church Myla got up and read if but she didn't read it she said it with nothing you know and didn't cry and it wasn't that she was being strong it was different points so I'm looking at her and just seeing her say the words I'm just like feeling very emotional and everyone in the church being very emotional but lila is you know but then how she behaves afterwards is that sort of running around so there's that she i know she can't be still with it so grief a lot of grief is about letting yourself be still to let in your feelings not so much that they overwhelm you so much but just so you release some of the sadness of what's happened and it's the balance of what you can handle that day or what you can't so with lila that changes you know how zach went straight away and did therapy he had a really nice counselor and any child who has a traumatic death in their parents it's a PTSD yeah so he had from week one somebody he spoke to who took him on a journey so in a way Zach I think processed the death of Johnny the most healthily because he was whereas his mom myself and Lila all navigated our way so when we speak about Johnny now and it's 10 years later you know it's zach and i would chat and lila would chat a bit and we'll chat about johnny and he's always in conversation and there's a part of me that wanted to go back like your thing of controlling you want to control you know so there was some things being written about johnny and there were all these sort of you know conspiracy theory things and i just called up i knew somebody who was an ad and i said please just can you not write something yeah and can you not write that he fell off a building can you not write that he committed suicide i just you know when you want to control what cannot be controlled then i then i wanted her not to have access to the news when she was at school so i asked the school to turn off her computer you know little things that you want to do to protect your child but then julia was also you know very much you've got to kids need to know the truth as soon as they can emotionally take it you know because otherwise you start to paint a narrative that isn't correct.

1:13:37And it's important that you know the truth because then you have to deal with the consequences of the truth. But it is a journey. Yeah. And all you want to do, like you know as a parent, is you want to just protect your child totally. And you have to also let them feel things. So it's a continual journey. And at some stage, Lila might want to go and chat to somebody. And then, you know, she left school and she was a little bit anxious. So she did this really good tapping as a therapy. And tapping's such, you know, I even think maybe I need to do some tapping, you know, because I'm very good at moving on and just not burying.

1:14:15But I will slightly, if I've got the bandwidth to feel, you know, like if I'm in the car and I listen to some music and I'm by myself, I'll have a moment of just having that release, having some tears, feeling just a, you know. there's moments when I really miss Johnny and the more years go by the more I only remember the good things which then makes you miss somebody more of course you know whereas at the time there were lots of challenges so it's it's such a process it's not linear no no no and I think you're so right you know I I sort of do the same if I've lost anyone it's in the moment have I got the capacity to actually properly acknowledge that this has happened i mean obviously it's you don't have that option in your situation but i can just go not looking at it don't want to look at it but a catches up with you and also is in your body like it's it's grief is in you and i think that's why tapping is really great or like even listening to you talk about how your daughter was sort of running around that's maybe her own physical way of like she's trying to release it move it on and get it out and it's probably slightly more intuitive as a kid because you just go with what feels right but it's um yeah you know as you say it's not linear it's not a process that any of us are in complete control of and it's day at a time as well I think just sort of how you feel on that day and you know finding those little ways to release it and feel it when you've you know got the bandwidth to do it but I think for anyone that is going through loss especially when there's a kid involved it is so helpful to hear other people's stories and how other people have gone through it because I'm imagining it's an incredibly lonely place to be I think it's um I went to there's a very good charity um called James's Place and it's for set up for men to try and help them before that moment.

1:16:14Yeah. And there's a very short window. It's a permanent solution to a temporary problem of suicide. And there's this very short window where you can still hear as the person who's in that zone. So they have different things they do. Because you'll go online, you might click Good Samaritans, but you can also see James' place. And then you have to fill in the form. Part of me thinks, should you fill in the form? which would be easy to fill in the form. It needs to be instant. It's got to be instant. And they do this thing with you because I think what happens is you lose the sense. You wind the movie forward to paint a future where you think it's better without you in it.

1:16:52And that's what allows you to give yourself permission. So how can you catch somebody in that moment? So they do this sort of card game where they kind of play out two scenarios. Wow. So you make this decision and then this happens. So they sort of play out the future of their life But by weirdly using these visual cards, it does capture some people to think, OK, actually. I'm not going to do decision. Yeah. And I think that's. There is. I don't know how we got to this, but there is that that window. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I can't remember how we got to this. No, but it's important if there's people out there who have been there mentally or fear someone else in their life is in that place mentally, then.

1:17:37You know, you want resources, you want help, you want somebody that understands and that can talk to you about it in a way that feels relevant. Yeah. Rather than, you know, not taking it seriously. Yeah, I know what it was. I know what it was. Because I, you know, went to meetings and I know the power of a group. Yes. I went to a lunch recently for people who had supported this charity and everyone there had lost somebody through suicide. and there was something good to be together because you could say things you can't say in front of your friends who haven't gone through exactly the same. But there was something really difficult about being there too because it brought home...

1:18:15It's very... I'll have lots of women on Instagram, Facebook be in touch who've gone through something similar. And I think it is good to be able to always find your tribe who know how you feel without you having to say stuff. And it is important if you feel you're listening and you haven't found your tribe for whatever it might be, as soon as you just have somebody else who knows what you're going through, it makes all the difference to everything. Yeah, it does. And thank you for talking about it because I know it's not easy to go over it again and again. And I do think there is so much power in knowing other people who have been through darkness and tough stuff and showing that you're not going to get over it ever entirely.

1:19:00but to be able to have a future where you can sit and laugh and have happy times and make new memories I think for people to know that's possible it's really important what I would say is that when I look at the two of them I see the best side of Johnny so when we talk about the joy you know we must remember joy in life it's really important when when traumatic things happen to hold on to that joy so when I've always and Lila and Zach have the best sense of humor I sometimes have a shitty sense of humor. I sometimes have a good sense of humor because I'll just do stupid things, people, and I just don't have any, I don't give a shit.

1:19:35You know, I sort of don't give a shit. So I don't care. So through that, people find it amusing. And I just, it's just whatever. It's my characteristic, nerdy, weird, whatever. But Lila was that would take the piss out of me for being serious sometimes. I was only kidding. It's not as kids do it to kind of, they want to get away with something. So I was only kidding. And you were like, well, that was a really nice way of showing it. And they were in fact being a CUNT. But they'll use that excuse. but also I I realize I have to you know if Johnny was in the room he'd say come on Trini just laugh about it you know this reminder so I do feel like when there's a fly in my room it's Johnny when there's like it's a time of year when there shouldn't be a fly in my bedroom because there aren't really flies in my house and there's this fly buzzing around by the mirror I'm thinking what the fuck is it I'm supposed to be doing like there's some thing come to annoy me to remind me of something so whenever I see it, there was a fly yesterday that's why I say this, but there's a fly like once a month alright, this fly hardly ever appears It's the same guy.

1:20:32It's Johnny Yeah. I just know it and it's so I have to check myself and think okay what should I not be taking so seriously or what is it I'm not being aware of that I should be aware of, just resets a bit. I love that, not taking it all so seriously because I think all of us, you know, I've definitely got the propensity to do that and just take everything so seriously and tie myself in knots and it's just sometimes it just doesn't need to be that way when we're looking at joy and knowing how important it is where would you say your happy place is it could be figuratively or existentially however you would see it where is your happy place um probably doing something with lila that we both love so we both love to ski she is fearless which scares me she will she is really fearless and so we both love speed and we both love the wind in our hair and that feeling and she loves it so I love she loves it she's not a sporty girl okay she was always like never good at sports and I was never good at sports either and um you know she has like three hands I mean she's got her coordination is really shit so is mine but we love because it's a singular thing racing and it's not in the team and you just go down the mountain so I love that and I have a little place in the mountains gorgeous which I it would be really gorgeous if I could go there but at the moment I'm still paying off the mortgage and I seem to be renting it out to pay off the mortgage but not going right so it's now 23 years later I spent 10 years hardly going there but the mortgage will be paid off by next year so then it's been a position where I can actually be there more but it's a very small village in France and when I go on holiday I never go on holiday to be sociable I go on holiday to get away from lots of people.

1:22:14So I love that. I love mountains. I love sea as well. But there's something very spiritual for me about mountains. And I feel they have this energy. Sea does too. Because I can lie on the sea and feel how much. And I have this really nice CEO coach. He's great. He actually started as a yoga guy and then he went to work at this big company in America for coaching board levels and whatever. And so we have conversations every two weeks just about style of management, how I'm doing things, you know, just not specific business, but more where I'm at in how I'm doing stuff. But he says, you need to be on the water training.

1:22:52You need to have a bath. You know, he has this sense. You need to have a bath, you're a dirty girl. But he has this sense of when it was sent to me. And it's very interesting because I've only met him once because we do it by Zoom. But he sort of intuitively knows if I'm out of balance. He said, when should you last have a bath? I have a shower every day and so he says get in a bathroom with some magnesium and just be still it's hard isn't it I have a bath once a month but this weekend I had three baths I went to stay somewhere and they only had a bath I had like four baths actually cold baths because it was so hot but it was really nice and it forces you to stop which is no mean feat a shower is continual movement I'm in and out, goodbye here's to baths because they are a very happy place to be and help us all to relax when we're properly stressed out.

1:23:43Trini, what a joy to talk to you today. Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and your stories and for championing women in business and for helping so many people get that first foot on the ladder. It's really beautiful. Thank you, Trini. Bloody hell, it was a rollercoaster, that, wasn't it? In the best possible way. I loved it. I laughed. I cried. I felt deeply emotional and I learned a hell of a lot. Trini, what a woman. What a woman. She's not what I want to do. I want to go for dinner with Trini. I'm putting that out there so I can get more wisdom from her and just have a good old goss and potentially get some makeup tips.

1:24:23By the way, I mentioned the chat with Dieter Von Teese. I hope you've already listened to that one. But if you haven't, you really need to because it will pick up on that conversation about dressing the part to make yourself feel more powerful. So look, we're going to be back here next week. But in the meantime, a huge thanks to Trini, to the producer Anushka Tate at Happy Play Studios, and to you, you bloody gorgeous.

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