Is your routine a strait-jacket? How to enact change, with Donna Ashworth

0:01Well, hello and a massive welcome to Happy Place with me, Fern Cotton. Now, this is the show that encourages you to embrace your perceived flaws. Today, I'm chatting to Donna Ashworth. The love lives in the sharing of the ugly truths. Because you can show everybody into your lovely home or here's my new dress and my lovely holiday. And that's great. We all enjoy that and we share that and it's fun. But if you let somebody in to your ugly, your moment where you just weren't a great version of yourself or underneath the beautiful exterior and into something that is vulnerable. You've given them a gift.

0:43Guys, how are you all? It's February, in case you hadn't realised. How are you faring? I'm doing all right, you know. I've become re-obsessed by the Beatles Get Back documentary, which came out about three years ago, and I'm re-watching now. It's eight hours long. I feel so excited watching it again. It's like I've not seen it before, and that has led me to dress like George Harrison. Maybe indefinitely. I'm really enjoying it. I'm currently sat here wearing a little neckerchief. I've been hugely inspired yet again. I'm very sponge-like with the Beatles. I might even... No, I'm not going to cut my hair like his.

1:18That would look ludicrous. I'd look ridiculous. But I'm completely obsessed. And again, it leads me to remind myself of how important good music is. I've been blaring Let It Be, that amazing last album from the Beatles, nonstop. So if you are feeling a little bit shit today, don't forget to put on music that you love. I know it's an obvious thing to say, but I sort of forget that. And music just has the power to make you feel so amazing. And I'm hoping you feel the same about poetry, guys, because we today are talking to the lovely Donna. Where do I start with Donna? Well, she's a Sunday Times bestselling poet now, But when she started her social media accounts in 2018 as a way of creating a safe social space for women to connect over shared experiences, she did it anonymously.

2:09Now, more than 10 books. She wrote a lot of books in a short space of time. And 1.8 million followers later, we get to know who the incredible woman behind these beautiful poems is. Her latest book is To The Women, a real celebration of the beauty, strength and joy of being a woman. Oh, bloody hell. We talked about a lot here. I feel like me and Donna needed to really get a lot off our chest and we almost sort of vented during this conversation. We talk about coping with nerves and also hypnotherapy, which Donna has found incredibly impactful. Also, talking about stuff in midlife, which feels really important because especially as women, it can often seem that when you reach a certain age, you are no longer needed in society.

2:53You're not interesting. No one's looking at what you're doing. And you certainly don't have a second chance, which is bullshit. Donna has proved this by doing the biggest pivot very successfully later on in life. Also talking about finding the courage to share deeply personal creativity with the world, which, again, I needed to hear because I love writing poetry and I don't think I've ever posted a single poem on Instagram or anywhere. Far too nerve-wracking, feels exposing, will people hate it, etc. So Donna personally helps me get over that one. And do stick to the end because Donna is going to read in her sensational, soothing Scottish accent a poem for us, which is gorgeous.

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4:46Right then, here we go. This is the show.

5:10Donna! Fern! This is exciting. So exciting. It's really exciting, although we just had an off-mic chat that I'm bringing to the mic. A meeting of minds where you've just come out of recording your audio book, which is an intense experience. It is. And how are you feeling post being in that booth locked in a cupboard for so long. A little bit mad. Yeah. There's something about hearing your own voice in your own ears and not being able to get up and walk around and sort of being faced with your own writing and doing it straight for sort of four hours that sends you a bit loopy. It's not normal, is it?

5:47It's not normal. And it is when you start to question everything you've written, although it's too late because it's about to be published. And if you do a word wrong, you have to go back and correct it because it doesn't match the text. so you have to stick to the script. It does send you... You can't just change it at the last minute, which is tough. Yeah, it's a very intense experience. It is. So to meet you in the middle... Yeah, just shake it off, Donna. Shake it off. Just to meet you in the middle. I'm delirious because I've had a kid off school every day this week from Monday and it's now Friday that we're recording this.

6:18Yeah. Had my son off for two days, then my daughter off for two days and then my son again today and I've gone completely delirious. I don't know what is going on, what time of day it is, where I am. I am just happy to sit here and chat to you today. As you might have noticed with my little notepad here, which many Happy Place viewers and listeners will be aware of, I'm fastidious about my research and my note-taking. Today, I feel wildly out of control. So I can make it up then? Yeah, we both can. It's going to be a chat where we wing it. I could just tell you anything. You quite literally could.

6:52But I'm so glad we're getting to do this because we've worked with each other in other guises. You've performed at the Happy Place Festival for a couple of years with great applause and recognition. I mean, you've had huge crowds gathered around to watch you recite your poetry and you can see people really holding on to each word and people are really, I guess, in that moment expressing how meaningful your words are to them. It must be, I mean, it's nerve wracking to read your poetry aloud, but it's a lovely experience to have a live audience, I'm imagining. It is and funnily enough the Happy Place was the first time last summer that I had stood by myself in any capacity with a microphone and read out my poetry.

7:34So the Chiswick Happy Place on the Saturday was the first time and it was probably the best place I ever could have done it because the crowds at Happy Place are lovely. They're just beautiful. Everybody's there looking for connection for better well-being they're all seeking the light and joy and trying to you know make friends with one another so it was beautiful nerve-wracking yeah I really really enjoyed it and the way you had it all set up with the dream catchers and the sort of breeze it was quite magical so I mean I watched you perform and it was so gorgeous but it is it is nerve-wracking you I guess I'm pretty well versed in speaking in front of people and it's something that I really, really enjoy.

8:24But it hasn't always been like that. Of course, when I first started out, it's incredibly scary. And still now if I'm faced with a really big crowd, of course you feel nervous. And people come up to me all the time and say, how do you stop those nerves? What do you do when they really kick in? I was doing an event on Wednesday and someone came up to me. We were doing this sort of double-handed event and she was like, God, how do you stop the nerves? And I don't think you do. I think you just learn to live alongside them and cope better with them. Do you have any techniques that you employ before you go out on a stage now?

8:54I mean, I had hypnotherapy. Did you? Because that's how nervous it was making me. Because I started writing poetry in my mid-40s to share it on social media. I didn't sort of set out to do it. It all happened very organically. So when it came to pass that people wanted me to actually say it, I had to sort of pull myself out of this sort of middle midlife place where I'd gone I can't do anything new I can't go and stand on a stage so and then I used to perform when I was younger I was a singer so somewhere in there it's there and I knew I could access it if I would get past my fear and all of the imposter syndrome and all of these things that we bury ourselves with so I thought right hypnotherapy I believe in hypnotherapy because it gets past your your thinking and into your subconscious and then I took an online class with someone who who taught public speaking because it's my worst nightmare public speaking I mean I'm just so amazed by people like you who do it so well and um but I thought if I know more about it I'll I'll be more confident and that was brilliant that was like a 45 minute session within the first 10 minutes I knew she'd given me enough already that it would help me and it was a few things like where you put your feet how you stand you know how you move and as soon as she said it to me I thought well that's grounding like when you're doing a meditation you ground yourself you know to the core and you're you've you've got your power you know you've got your control back so that was invaluable but I'm a real believer and just say it out loud so I get this thing and everybody tells me stop telling everybody about it but I get a really dry mouth and I get an Elvis lip so my lip sticks to my teeth and I start doing this Elvis thing which is not great Fern when you're doing poetry no so the only way for me to get past that if I can't get a quick drink of water is to tell the audience yes and then it's gone say it own it yeah and it disappears years yes so whether it's the self-fulfilling prophecy that I'm creating myself but I did an event with Pam Ayers last summer at the Morecambe Poetry Festival and somebody introduced me to her and said have you any advice for Donna she said well don't tell anybody that you're nervous that was the worst no I want to tell the world Pam you don't understand and I said oh no Pam that's the one thing I always do and she went don't do that oh no I I'm a I'm sorry Pam but I'm with you because I had it with panic attacks.

11:33The best thing I could do if I could feel one coming on was to tell the person I was with because the more it lived in my head in an isolated manner, the bigger it became and I would be panicking like, oh my God, I bet they can tell. They know something's up. What if I faint was always my sort of worst case scenario if I was driving or on a stage. And there was one time where I had to do some filming driving on the motorway and I'm luckily fine on the motorway now. I've overcome it. But for five years, I couldn't drive on the motorway. And I was filming a TV show where I had to drive on these big A roads and I could feel it coming on.

12:07And I just said, right, I'm just going to let you know, sometimes I have panic attack when I'm driving on a motorway. Actually, most of the time. So I just want to say that out loud so that, you know, and because I'd said it, I felt so much more in control. And I it was on the edge, but I didn't go into full panic. I think something about just saying it and owning it. And also I think with the work you're doing, your poetry is connective. And I think just being honest and telling people, yeah, I'm this poet with a big following, but I'm still really shit scared. That makes you even more human and relatable and people will connect to what your words mean even more, I think.

12:46Yeah, I think so. And the whole point of writing the poems that I write and doing what I've done was to unmask, to get out of that place of perfectionism that I was living in, where you never admit that you're struggling and you always look like you have it all together. So there was no point in me trying to do that whilst I was trying to recite poetry that was saying the opposite to that. You know, I've only got one choice now that I've unraveled, as I call it. And that is to be exactly who I am. I can't do it any other way. I can't pick up the mask occasionally and put it back on for an hour.

13:21It would be nice, but it's gone now. So I have to just be really brave and own it and say, you know, I really love this. I want to be here. I want to do it. And in about 10 minutes, it's going to be fine. Exactly. Because you do it. It's a bit dodgy. Yeah, that's fine. I love stories about people's trajectory when it's come a little bit later in life. I think we all know the stories of people that have had this vision from a very young age and they've worked and worked and worked and they've got to this point in their 20s or teens where it's all started to kick off. You seemingly had this big pivot in your 40s where I'm imagining it comes from mindset.

14:02It's not like you've got some sort of magic spell that you cast and all of a sudden you've got this huge following. Or have you? Or maybe you can let us know, Donna. But it seems like something shifted in you in your 40s that catalyzed all of this. Yeah. Is that true? And if so, what was it? I had had enough. Yeah. I just kept thinking every day, I can't keep doing this. I can't keep running this fast. I felt like the sort of lifestyle that we were living, my kids were a bit younger. They were at really good schools, but those schools went really fast and hard. Like you have to do better, you have to do more, you have to do sports, you have to do this.

14:43Weekends are homework and weekends are more sports. And everybody was sort of moving at such a pace. And stressed. And stressed. Yeah. And I just thought, I've got a feeling nobody likes this. And maybe if I stop and say, anybody else think that this is all just a bit of a joke and we can all just chill out and be a bit, you know, flawed and have a laugh about it and be really happy and we could maybe help one another that if I did that maybe people would go me me me and so I mean it was anonymous at first I had a page I sort of hid behind the name of the page which was ladiespassiton.com and I thought we would kind of pass things on that helped one another and it wasn't until sort of the first poem or two maybe went viral that I I went okay this is me this is my name and this is my face that's another really scary bit what you're all going to say about my face you're going to say horrible things and I just had enough and I just thought there's more than this and I think we could have better conversations about everything about depression I realized I'd been depressed many times in my life and I'd never admitted it I'd always gone oh I'm highly sensitive I maybe get a bit down I'm quite difficult but no I had been depressed you know I struggled for a long time with eating disorders and I got myself out of those eating disorders using affirmations and Reiki and going down the whole reprogramming your thoughts so I lived on Louise Hay for decades obsessed with Louise Hay I still her book how to heal your body I have healed my body I have it I've got two copies of it yeah one by my bed one in my little office I go to it constantly yeah I carried that everywhere with me age 18 I mean who was doing that and I did a Reiki course for my I think it was my 17th birthday because I was trying to eradicate myself off the face of the earth because I was such a perfectionist such uh you know had to have all the grades had to have everything perfect that you know the minute I realized that you could control your eating and that would make you feel really powerful and that that that was my downfall so Louise Hay helped me unpick all of that and and find a much healthier calmer way and so somewhere within me that was all dying to come back out it had kind of been squashed down again by life and being a new mum and you know everything just coming at you my husband and I ran a business a children's play centre which was seven days a week so there was never a day where it was shut except for Christmas Day and New Year's Day and we thought this will be fun we can bring our kids to work because I used to work in magazines and he was in TV and we thought this will be a really chill nice way of life I mean why would you think that a ball pool would be chill?

17:38They're the worst place ever quite frankly. I mean I have noise I have sensory issues so the noise in itself was too much but I was definitely just looking for deeper conversations with people and I thought you know what maybe I'll start it in a really dramatic way but why poetry as well because you know you could have expressed yourself in yeah plethora of ways whether it was just expressive writing or dance or just you know creating a website where you're chatting to people there's forums but poetry is so specific why that is it something you'd always lent on personally just for fun I think there's always somebody in a friendship group that writes poems even for fun you know like oh can you is that you i'm obsessed so yeah so there you go then and i was that person so as a teenager i wrote poems in my diary about the boys everyone fancied yeah fun heartache you know the desperation of teenage angst and heartache um and then i became a songwriter so i was a singer at the time and i started to write songs so the lyrics the beauty of a few words they I mean I listen to other people's music and it's the lyrics for me if they're with the right music and they're done in that way that magic is made it's the best but the lyrics are so important and I've always been obsessed with the power of words the right words in the right order at the right time just when you need it if someone passes it to you or you hear it um it's healing it's you like affirmations you know it's like all of that that they can do so much.

19:14So I didn't intend to do it. I didn't at any point go, I write poems now, that's what I do. I would write little paragraphs and then I would write quotes and then I would maybe just, you know, write about my day and then the poetry came. And so much so, it was so organic that I don't even know how it happened. It just unfurled. The market's uncertain. Revenue's tied and hiring on hold. That's why results-driven companies are using Upwork to keep work moving. Go to Upwork.com today and start hiring proven freelance talent fast. No bulky overhead. No rigid long-term contracts. Just the right expert right when you need them.

19:57Work smarter and faster with Upwork. Go to Upwork.com now and find your freelance expert. That's U-P-W-O-R-K.com. Post a job for free and get started today. Hi, this is Knox from the podcast with Knox and Jamie. And maybe like us at the Popcast, you also know people who have been smokers or vapers. And Zen is the one product it seems like everyone is talking about. Because there are many good reasons to make a change to Zen nicotine pouches. Reasons like Zen nicotine pouches are still America's number one choice for smoke-free, hands-free nicotine satisfaction. And you can choose between 10 varieties, each variety available in either 3 or 6 milligrams.

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21:16This is all taking place during lockdown that you started putting these poems out for the first time I mean there's lots I want to unpick within this story but one of the scary things is I know like you just said you were releasing them anonymously at first it's one thing to write poetry it's another to share it I don't think I've ever shared any of my poetry it feels so deeply personal You know we have to do that now. And exposing that I don't know how I'd feel. And I had it with my paintings at first. I used to paint very privately. And now occasionally I'll put portraits that I've done online.

21:50And, you know, I'm less bothered about whether people think they're good, bad, or they don't get it, whatever. But it is, with anything creative, there is a scary threshold you have to cross to say, and here I am laying myself bare to the world with my poetry. How did you get the courage to do that? like this you've got to go through the cringe there's no way around it no you have to cross the cringe and whatever it is you're doing if it's painting or poetry or writing the first few times are going to feel absolutely hideously awful like those dreams where you go out the house and you're naked and you can't get back in and you've not got a phone um but something inside you tells you that what's on the other side of the cringe is really worth crossing over to so the only way to do it is to do it and go through that yeah and not compare not over edit you know not look at your work and say who's going to like it just put it out there and trust that the people who need that and when it comes to art it's needed it's not just wanted it's needed they will find it and I almost put the pressure on the work to take it off of me so I tell my little poem right off you go fly away and find whoever you need and then if it doesn't it's not my fault that's the poem didn't do it and then you've got to kind of let go of them so once they leave you they're no longer of you they're from you and they belong to other people now and they will share them and do what they need to do with them and they will become a part of their lives and they do whatever it is that you're doing you know the work becomes a part of other people's story yeah I mean and my god did people share them I mean when did you what which poem went viral first and how did that feel because that is if you're you know in Scotland releasing these poems anonymously not really thinking much of it and then all of a sudden you're getting thousands of people following I mean, you've got half a million followers on Instagram or something now.

24:01And some of your poems have just travelled so far and been shared with so many people. And like you say, are owned by those people. They have a different bespoke meaning to every reader. And they might be put in birthday cards, all these little special ways that they've been shared with people. So special. But what did that feel like, the first one going viral and thinking, what the fuck is happening here? Yeah, that's what it felt like. Yeah. It's great. It was crazy. and it's one of those things I remember watching the numbers go and the numbers were tick tick tick tick tick ticking and most of it was on Facebook for me so I was actually in Manchester when I first started in the lockdown we moved after the first lockdown and I just remember watching the numbers tick tick tick changing like they were never static and I've actually got one and a half million followers on Facebook now which is completely insane Instagram was a bit more difficult for me because I'm a bit older I felt like it took me a wee while you know get into the cool cooler grids um but it felt like something I was watching rather than something I was part of and still to this day I feel like I am part of it I don't see it as me or you know if people say how do you feel I always say watching the words do their thing because I've long believed that we could use poetry every day not just for funerals not just for weddings or for really clever people who are really good at you know dissect and complicated prose but for every day like Louise Hay yeah and we could open it up randomly and get a little message that we need and even if there's nothing going on in your day there are a million things going on in your brain and your mind and your body and your soul and you need comfort you need direction but most of all you just need that feeling that somebody else felt like this too one day yesterday today maybe thousands of people are feeling like this so I had long believed that poetry or whatever you want to call it um had that power and could work really well on social media because we're all moving so quickly through our feats these little chunks you take one look at them you know it's a poem because the way it's laid out your brain goes I'm going to get a nice message here so it cuts through like 10 layers of small talk and you're straight into deeper territory so soul talk yeah the poetry gets straight in and gets to topics that you would never be able to engineer your way around to in most conversations so it has been like watching a giant poetry snowball and lots of other poets So I've joined that snowball since then as well.

26:43And it's getting bigger. The figures are crazy. Poetry sold more last year than ever since time began. Really? Yeah. So, and the same the year before and the same the year before. Isn't it interesting? That must have some sort of direct correlation to the opposite, which is that very quickly imbibed TikTok algorithm of I'm watching something for four seconds and I'm bored and what's the next thing? And we want to counter it with something that you say you need to take more time to digest it and it has to have, there's meaning behind it and you need to sit with it. I think there's not ever a situation where just one thing exists.

27:20We have to have the counter and maybe that's what I mean. Yeah. We're maybe understanding the need for it more than ever because we're so tired from being bombarded with all this quick information. I mean, you, the book that I've got on my lap here, To the Women, you originally self-published this around this time when your poetry was really kicking off. But you're republishing it now with added work in there, which is really exciting. Yeah, 70 new poems. 70 new ones. Which is more than there was in the original book. It was a very small book, so it's more than half again. But I kept the original content, even though I cringed, Vern, when I read some of it.

27:56Why? Well, because it's an old version of you. We all do it. We look back at photos, work that we did. Facebook statuses from two years ago are enough to make you go, who was that? Quite, quite. But we must honour these past versions of ourselves because they were who they were so that you could be who you are today. And you've really got to make peace with them and accept them and say, you know, I'm never going to agree with your outfit or your hairstyle. But look at you trying your best. Bless. And, you know, we're here now. And also us in 20 years might be cringing at us right now. So let's just be forgiving, I would say.

28:32I'm sure. So I kept the original content exactly as it was. And then I thought I need to add the last four years because I wrote that book to bring women together. And the minute it went out, more women came into my life than I could ever have even imagined possible. So therefore, there had to be a lot more stuff to be said. so it's been it's like a bit of a full circle this is my 10th book now and it's also the first book so there's a real feeling of coming back to what happened and thanking everybody like you who shared for no reason other than you said that's lovely I'm going to share that well like many other people out there I got gifted Sarah gave it to you my friend Sarah gave it I think she got me three of your books or something like that there was a bundle of books and our lovely dear friend Sarah Kaywood, or Sarah Mary now, just an absolute legend.

29:27She is. And I kept picking it up. It was in my little office at home and I would read a poem, put it back, and it would just give me a little boost in the day. Tiny little bits. Tiny little boost, just so gorgeous. And this book is so special. I mean, I've pulled out a few poems that I not only love, but I'm interested to know more about. And one of them is Just Begin, which is a poem that talks about the difference between trusting the process and just waiting. Now this is I think very interesting. We, I mean, if you look at just the landscape of well-being, the word manifest is thrown about a lot.

30:05We very recently recorded, I don't know when it will go out before or after this episode, but we did a podcast on manifesting. And my often confusion with it, does it work? Is it a thing? Is it just for special people who can do it? You know, how does it work? And I think what you've done with this poem is sort of go beneath all the bullshit and go, right, what's trusting the process? And what is just waiting hopelessly that something's going to happen without action? What has that relationship been like in your own life with knowing when to really push something or when to sit back and just trust life?

30:40I mean, I'm obsessed with the science behind the way that we think and happiness and all of these things. So I read a lot of, you know, evidence-based self-help books, I suppose, as they were, that talks about how your brain responds to what you're telling it every single day. If you are in the place of doing, you're in action. So it's all very well to sort of sit there and say, I want, I want, I want, I really want this to happen. I hope this happens and visualizing and manifesting. But you've got to be actively doing something. now there are tiny tiny steps and I'm a huge believer in everything in tiny steps is the way to make change that lasts or do things that you know really work so you could be doing the tiniest little thing towards what it is that you're hoping for I mean it could be anything it could be you know just putting a nice new pen next to a nice new book that you're going to write in later you don't even write in it but you put the pen there you know no matter how overwhelmed you are there's always something you can be doing towards what it is that you want to be receiving you've got to do something you've got to signal life the universe whatever it is that you believe in the motion of energy that I'm ready let's go yeah and the only way to do that is to stand up and say I'm ready let's go I'm doing something yeah so it's actually a lovely little combination of yeah the doing bit yeah but you've got to trust as well yeah because I think if you're doing but you're going oh this probably won't work this is gonna go to shit then that's not helpful either yeah and I guess also with if you know that you're not happy this also applies that you have to do something differently you've got to apply change to a situation if you want to feel differently and I think we've all been stuck in a rut at points in our life where we've thought but why am I still in this situation or why do I still feel like this but we're not actively doing anything differently but we're expecting change to sort of turn up for us and we and we get trapped in that we often get so trapped in that and the problem about being trapped in things is you can't see it because you're inside it and if you're in the habit of coming out of what it is that you feel you're inside coming out of your own life your own thoughts and standing outside of it and looking back in it's a really clever thing to do perspective you don't see when you're in you have to get outside of it to look back in to see that's why when you go on a big walk literally up a hill or you know away or when you go on holiday you sometimes get a better look at your life and your problems because you're out of it you're far away you're out of your routine and your routine can be a cage sometimes as well as comforting you know comfort zones for example you build your comfort zones when you're in a really bad place and they're important you need them but you've got to get out it but you can come back to it people who say life exists outside your comfort zones I agree with that to an extent but you need somewhere to come back to to regenerate when you've done the big thing you know and you built that you did that look how cozy it is get back in it but always come back out and have a look around and check that you're not imprisoning yourself in there that you're free I've definitely had years where I felt really not great and my routine has been regimented to the nth degree like everything I have to go to bed at a certain time I have to do this before I go to bed and then I have to wake up at a certain time because you feel so out of control you're trying to create some sort of safety like a route a map to sort of just get through the day yeah and actually the times when I can see that I felt it's not even about happiness maybe it's about feeling engaged with life and very aware of the life going on around me and that I'm in it that kind of goes out the window a bit in the best possible way and I'm not so obsessive about timings and how everything's got to be so that I can feel okay because it doesn't doesn't work like that anyway no there is a flow yeah it doesn't matter who you are or what you believe in there is a flow that you have to let go to a little yeah and these regimented routines that we give ourselves they're not allowing us to do enough living in between all of the doing you know and it's I'm somebody who doesn't aim for happiness I'm looking for peace because I live in a very chaotic mind I always have so all of my poetry is seeking calm peace you know a better understanding of why feelings come and believing that they're going to go again knowing that you don't have to hold on to them or believe that this is me now I'm a very sad person I'm never going to feel light again you know it all comes and it all goes and it can do that a hundred times a day yeah so happiness for me is like sadness it comes in it comes out you've got to honour it when it's here and go for it you know these little moments where you think why am I feeling happy it's Monday yeah lean in nine lean into that jump in get it done and I guess poetry actively helps you remember that everything comes and goes.

35:43Because when you're writing something down, it doesn't have to be poetry. It could be just you writing a bit of a diary entry or just you want to, you're really fucking angry about something. You need to write it down. The notion of getting it on a page, it does get it out of you to a degree. Maybe not entirely that you're rid of all the feelings, but it doesn't exclusively live within you. There is some sort of purging with writing, I think. Yeah, completely. and I would urge anybody who has an overthinking brain or feels you know slightly chaotic sometimes all the time yeah all the time um we are twin flames in many ways to write and I told you before we came in I gave you the journal so this journal that I made last year this was the purpose of it so there's a question every day from me and the idea behind the question is so that you don't even have to think what am I writing today somebody else is asking you it and what it does is it kickstarts your thoughts looking at them a bit more selectively am I being really negative here you know am I wallowing in this thing that I could be letting go of now or am I stopping myself before I even begin so journaling and even that word itself can put fear into some people because we've no time but you have got time you feel like you're stealing time from yourself when you take 10 minutes to journal but you're actually giving yourself about an hour and a half yeah because you're saving yourself so much running around in chaos later by just letting your thoughts formulate into a better order letting the important stuff come to the front and all the rubbish go to the back maybe even you know out the back door that's what writing does it literally gets it out and puts it down like pulling a messy thread out of a brain oh that's just reminded me of set it down another poem that I've jotted down that I love because that very much is about setting down heavy feelings and I I love that idea because sometimes we assume we have to carry around this heavy load of shit whether it's something that happened to us or it's a regret or they're just some big old heavy feelings that we've got.

37:55And we don't give ourselves permission to go, I'm just going to pop that down. It could be for an hour or it could be forever. But we don't give ourselves permission to do that. I wonder what you think the difference is between setting down heavy feelings and ignoring them completely unhealthily. Well, in order to know what you're setting down, you have to have processed it. yeah so you know I I would never tell people to like whack a smile on your face and just be happy that's not positivity to me positivity is having a look at all the crap first sifting through it for what's real what is going to stay with you like grief or you know things that that you actually will carry with you but in a more healthy manner and what is just a load of rubbish that you do not need so if you're at the the point of setting it down you've you've had a look at what it is that you're putting down but I started this practice a couple of years ago where at the end of every month I asked the month before to keep something for me that I didn't want to take forward so I would say right June whatever it may be maybe I was having a body confidence issue let's just say rose up again you know from the teenage years which happens nothing is linear everything loops you go back and you go back and you go back so I would say you know June will you just keep this for me I'm not going into July with it it's a load of rubbish it's holding me back and saying it out loud or writing it down is such a powerful thing you feel very silly but it's almost like you're pinning it to the fabric of the universe and making it so if I say this I'm setting you down now and I'm walking away I'm leaving you I'm not coming back no I don't hear you and off I go you have a laugh about it but it's a really powerful thing to do and um to see things visually like that makes a difference for me it works for my brain you know that gives me a feeling of yeah of course I can do this I can I can go into tomorrow next week whatever it is and I don't have to take that with me no we don't we've got much more choice than we believe I think sometimes especially when it comes to self-esteem and negative beliefs we have about ourself we're so used to that voice it is so inherently there and it's made itself a little room and it's made itself all cosy in there and you're just used to hearing that, you're a piece of shit you look like shit, whatever your story on repeat is and we forget we've got a choice to say yeah I'm not going to listen to that anymore actually you can stay in January thanks I'm off to February, bye it's very good

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41:43Grace Deslow is another one that I'd love to talk to you about. A poem where you talk about, well, many things, but one of them is just pace. And we live, as we all know, in the craziest of times where things are just phenomenally fast. And as you said earlier, you know, you had a job where you felt you were caught in the rat race. And it was all about chasing that and what's next and how do we keep this going? And you chose to step away from that. But it's really hard, even if it's not in terms of your lifestyle, for our brains to get used to slowing down and stopping and taking heed of what's just happened, having a little moment and a pause.

42:23None of us used to it. And also we're actively encouraged to not do that. It's like, what are you going to do next? And what are you achieving next? what are you doing at the weekend and and how is what's going on in your evening we're we're so rarely in the moment do you think you've got better with that maybe even through writing poetry yeah completely I've changed so much in the last four years because I've been because I've been writing this every day and when I started writing it I wasn't doing it and and to this day I'll still say to people I am not a perfect person floating about in serenity all the time I write all of this poetry because that's what I'm actively asking for so in order to get it I have to work at it and I have to put it out there and I have to to dream it and be it and you know and do it so I'm constantly trying to be more peaceful and more present and less you know less bothered by what everybody else is doing and who's chasing what you know careful what race you've got yourself in because what is the price to be more stressed than the person behind you because that's really what's happening and it's made a huge difference in my life and again with the journaling group we're sort of three weeks into January and watching everybody because they've had this question every day and they've started questioning their pace their inner critics you know all of these things and being forced to sort of write good things about themselves and watch what happens to the reaction it's fascinating yeah it's absolutely fascinating and take away a few daily details and women especially we're all the same you know you can you can take some layers away of what we do and where we live and you know all of those things but really we're all fundamentally the same and we all feel that pressure you know these these badges of merit or busyness and stress oh my god how does she do it well she doesn't do it she probably comes home and you know has a scream every night like me and goes in the garden and goes ah and we're all doing it and if we all just owned up to it everybody would go huh yeah i don't have to do that anymore yeah because actually this isn't a poem i'm quoting here it's it's a line it's from a poem but it's a line that you've pulled out in the book which says when you embrace your flaws someone watching finds their way which is so brilliant because I've certainly had that where I've seen somebody openly admit to something that they are unhappy with in themselves or a moment that they feel they fucked up or whatever it might be and not only does it give us all permission to go okay I can find a bit of peace with the fact that I'm completely flawed we all We've all got things that we know we would like to either change or that we know we've got a little weak spot over here or whatever.

45:13And we don't need fixing. We don't need to create this perfect version of ourselves. It's becoming much more comfortable with those flaws or things in the past that have happened to you that you feel deeply uncomfortable about. It's finding peace rather than I need to eradicate that to become a pure person who never says anything bad or ever has a bad thought, which is bollocks. And I think by people having openness and talking about that, other people can find not only a bit of mental peace, but also I think actively make decisions that suit them better because they're less worried about what everyone else thinks, quite frankly.

45:52It's powerful. It's so powerful. the love lives in the sharing of the ugly truths because you can show everybody into your lovely home or here's my new dress and my lovely holiday and that's great we all enjoy that and we share that and it's fun but if you let somebody in to your ugly your in a moment where you just weren't a great version of yourself or you know underneath the beautiful exterior and into something that is vulnerable you've given them a gift you've literally given them a gift it's one of the nicest things that one human being can do for another and you did it for a room full of us a couple of weeks ago at the breakfast event that we were at when you said the question was um how do you find balance did it today and you went well I don't know I chase every day um I never get it you know it's like the roadrunner we're all chasing balance we'll probably never catch it but every day we try and we're all trying to be better people kind of people nicer to ourselves better parents do a bit of good work you know make a bit of difference in the world and you know we're all trying so hard to be good people and if you stop and look at it the fact that we're all trying to be good it's such a wonderful thing when there are people out there who just actively do terrible things you know most people are constantly trying to be better and that's a beautiful thing and being honest with the bits of you that aren't better that you might not even keep trying to make better because you've just gone actually this is me yeah it's I mean I I'm neurodiverse so my son was diagnosed at the start of lockdown along with lockdown and you know our world turned upside down we had no clue what was coming it was like somebody threw a hand grenade into our lounge and then ran away and we were like what now and I sort of deep dived on his behalf to find out more about what autism means what ADHD means he's he's both and in doing that I uncovered myself and with each page that I turned I was like oh so of course I went and got my diagnosis and the sort of realization that you're not faulty you perceive the world differently and actually this world is crazy you're not meant to be able to handle all the noise all the sounds all the lights all the change you know we were never meant to live like this when we were meant to be in tiny little villages you know hearing the bad news from the neighboring village not the entire world you need to like you say you need to counter that with enough good news with enough good thoughts or thoughts that can at least help you change your worst thoughts i can't even remember how i started on this and what the question was doesn't even matter completely lost what you're saying is great but yes you gave us all permission to do that that day by saying i don't have balance i mean i don't i honestly don't have a clue we all went no i don't have a clue what i'm doing I feel deeply uncomfortable a lot of the time with, you know, I love doing talks.

49:07I love doing panel talks. I do a hell of a lot of them. But I would never want to be framed as this person who does wellness. Yeah. And I'm doing it really well. My life's really perfect. It's like people assume that I'm sort of like constantly meditating, whatever. No, not. I'm rushing around trying to find kids school uniform that I put in the washing machine and I forgot to dry on the morning they need it. and my kids are on screens and I'm going out of my mind and I've got 50 emails in my inbox. At the end of the day, I'm also trying to run a business as well as being a mum. So no, I'm not meditating every day.

49:40I know all of this stuff works and I like dipping in and out of certain things that work for me. But realistically, in this world we live in, I am floundering around working out how to get to the end of the day so I can crawl into bed. I don't want to ever be seen as anything other than a deeply flawed human. Same. There is no other version of me. There's such joy in that. Yeah. Isn't there such joy and relief? Relief. Oh, my goodness. Everybody, chill out. We're all bad at each other. We're all... And if anybody says that they're not, they're lying to themselves. Of course. They're going to have to look at that at some point.

50:19Because nobody's doing it. It's not possible. Nobody can do it all, have it all, and enjoy it all, and never worry. No. That's just not a thing. It's absolute politics. So, yeah, I really, I set out from the very beginning to go, you know, I am deeply flawed. How lucky am I to be able to be flawed and be here and see that and want to try and be a wee bit better? Because it's not so you're trying to be better so people will perceive you better. You're trying to be better for yourself, for your life, for your kids, for the people who love you. So that, you know, their experience of you is a bit better.

50:54And some days I really achieved that. And other days, you know, like last week, I had to run up to my bedroom and roar like a banshee and beat my pillows because I was so frustrated by something small. And I just finished and kind of just flicked my hair and went back to being. Yeah, you've got to get it out of you physically, though. Get a pillow, beat the shit out of it. And a roar like a banshee. I really recommend it. I would love you to read a poem for us out of your book to the women. I don't know which one you'd feel is right for today. I am going to. Now, I had a thought on the way in.

51:34Hold tight is called. Okay. It's called Hold Tight, so now I just need to find it. This is one I regret putting too many. You've written too many poems there, Donna, haven't you? Too many poems in one book. Let's just see. I know. Well, when I was in the audio booth earlier recording them all, I thought, why have I done so many? Why don't I just do five and call it quits? I didn't need to do this many. It would have been fine if there was only a hundred. Here we go. I found it. Right. Donna, over to you. This is called Hold Tight. I'm not going to read directly to your face because I know that can be quite uncomfortable.

52:06Yeah, a bit creepy. Okay, hold tight. In those moments when darkness is unbroken by light, hold tight to your core, to the belief that there is more, that light will return and soon. It will crack through the curtains and fill this very room. Stay afloat by holding yourself like a safety rope. Until someone else can hold you to the safest place in this world must be you. Hear the truth, not the voices who tell you you're useless and used. You're just bruised and bruises heal. Hunker down and feel. This is simply passing through. In the way all feelings do, hold tight to you. That is so gorgeous.

53:00Do you like it? And I think all of us need to not only hear that, but really know it and believe it, because we so often ditch ourselves, abandon ourselves, rely too heavily on exterior things to make us feel better and good, and actually, at the end of the day, we've just got ourselves, and we've got to love ourselves and have compassion and hold ourselves tightly at least just be nice to yourself you know you know things can go wrong and you can get things really wrong but if you've got your own back if you're not ready to pounce and go i knew it i knew you would do this you can just be like oh sorry about like you would for a friend you know it's that simple you don't have to love yourself that can be a mountain for a lot of people but you do have to like yourself or at least be nice yeah just be nice exactly oh it's beautiful I love that poem I'd love to end the chat by knowing where your happy place is it doesn't have to be a tangible space but what is your happy place oh it's really it's my bedroom I'm really rock and roll and you know interesting human I just love that feeling when it's the day is done all things are done you know you've got everything off your little list that you needed to do and all you have to do now is chill out in your lovely space with I've got a new kitten so you know I've got two cats now and two dogs and two kids who sometimes come for a cuddle but not quite they're 12 and 16 now so occasionally I get a cuddle so it's that feeling of yeah it's just me now and just the people that I love and just you know the safety of the space that you've got is important so that's my happy place and I also love the happy place festival that's genuinely a happy place it is, it really is it recharges you, like you're plugged in because of all the people there, otherwise it's just a field, yeah you just put out a call for all the wonderful people in the whole of the country to come together and it's like boom, this energy it's lovely isn't it, it's wonderful well you're invited every bloody year Donna, what a joy to have you on happy place thank you for reading some of your beautiful poetry and good luck with more people discovering your beautiful work.

55:14And thank you for shining your lovely light on me today. I'm really grateful. Oh, Donna. I love Donna. Donna is so wonderful. I could talk to Donna all day. And she's really inspired me. I'm going to get home and I'm going to write some poetry. I might even share it, maybe. Still a bit scared about that. But if you love writing poetry, I hope that chat has also really kick-started you, maybe thinking of something to write about today or braving showing your poetry to just even a friend. It's a really special thing. To the Women is out on the 13th of Feb and I highly recommend you buy yourself a copy.

55:49It's beautiful. Or even better, gift it to one of the best women in your life. What a gift that is. By the way, I mentioned that I've recorded an episode about manifesting that will be with you very soon. So keep an eye on your podcast feed because I think it's going to be a special one. Another thing we mentioned was, of course, the Happy Place Festival. Oh yeah, it's back. Lots of exciting news about this summer's festivals coming your way very shortly. So make sure you're following at Happy Place Official and me at Fern Cotton on Instagram. If you want to come along and join us this year, you really should because they are the most beautiful weekends and I know you will love it.

56:30If you've not been before, come along, try something new. Right, a massive thanks again to Donna, to the producer Anushka Tate at Happy Place Studios and to you, you're doing bloody brilliantly.

57:08Hi, this is Knox from the Popcast with Knox and Jamie. And maybe like us at the Popcast, you also know people who have been smokers or vapors. And Zen is the one product it seems like everyone is talking about. Because there are many good reasons to make a change to Zen nicotine pouches. Reasons like Zen nicotine pouches are still America's number one choice for smoke-free, hands-free nicotine satisfaction. And you can choose between 10 varieties, each variety available in either 3 or 6 milligrams. Check out zen.com slash find to find Zen at a store near you. Warning, this product contains nicotine.

57:40Nicotine is an addictive chemical.

58:08Grab a purple box of My Mochi ice cream and chew it. Love it. Repeat.