Iwan Thomas: Self-loathing, hard graft, and soft play

0:00Hello and welcome to Happy Place. I'm Fern Cotton and this is the show that knows no one is immune to low days. Today, I'm joined by Ewan Thomas. I've gone from a world where I'm six foot two, 15 and a half stone, muscle bound, fast running machine. And if all of a sudden I said, I don't know where I'm going, I don't know what I'm going to do, who am I? Then I just felt I was showing a weakness to, if I did get back, my rivals would think, well, I've seen him talk about depression, we can get inside his head. And I couldn't be more ashamed of myself for not being honest sooner because as soon as I did speak, I felt I'd helped other people.

0:36depression or anxiety or whatever it is it doesn't care if you drive a white van for the council or you remember the royal family Ewan became the fastest British 400 meter runner after breaking the record in 1997 he ran it in 44.36 seconds how he's an Olympic medalist and former European and world champion too but I got the sense from our chat that being a gorgeous dad is what he's most proud of and his family is certainly what drives him now. His new memoir, Brutal, absolutely covers the immense achievements but it's really honest about the loneliness and the doubts and the really serious mental health issues that defined his career too.

1:22One of the things that stood out to me was just how hard Ewan worked himself and you'll hear in this chat just how far he was willing to push his body for those wins. Ewan came round to my house a couple of weeks ago and it was a beautiful summery day and he was a particular fan of a big sweary sign that I've got on the shelf in my studio. Hi this is Nox from the Popcast with Nox and Jamie and maybe like us at the Popcast you also know people who have been smokers or vapors and Zen is the one product it seems like everyone is talking about because there are many good reasons to make a change to Zen nicotine pouches.

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4:01We're going to be in Tatton Park later this summer, but the Chiswick House Festival is less than two weeks away. Oh, I'm so excited. I can't wait for another year of amazing guest speakers and all the immersive workshops, the delicious food, the shopping. Oh, the shopping, that shopping tent. You can't get me out of there. And loads more. On Saturday, the 13th of July, you can hear talks from Lisa Snowden, Paul Brunson, Rhiannon Lambert and loads of other really cool and clever people. Plus, Denise van Aylten will be doing one of her legendary DJ sets. It was so good last year. Then on Sunday, the 14th, there are talks from actual Gabby Bernstein, who I'm in love with, Roxina Fousey.

4:42We've got live music from the Overtones and Jason Donovan is going to be on stage recording a live podcast episode with me, which I'm so here for. Get your tickets now at happyplaceofficial.co.uk. All right, here it is. This is the show.

5:21I love your fuck it thing there by the way. It's good isn't it? I got that in Ibiza. It's a good reminder to just not, because I care too much about everything. Oh my God, me too. I'm a total warrior. Honestly, I worry so much about everything. So the phrase is, fuck it, as we begin this podcast. Ewan, I'm so happy to see you today. I loved reading your book and I learned a lot about you. that I didn't know. The first thing I didn't know about you is that as a child, you weren't that bothered about athletics. No, not at all. That's quite rare, no? That an athlete isn't bothered right from the start.

5:54I think in a way it was a good thing because a lot of kids who have been athletes from a young age and started training and maybe being pushed by the parents, by the time they got to the senior ranks, they're probably bored of it. Whereas I was that high-practic kid who just loved running around and doing all sport. So I was really annoying. I was cheeky in class. not naughty in a horrible way but I got away with it because the teachers were like yeah leave him alone he's the kid who plays county level football cross-country he does BMX racing which was a real cool thing I did from the age of about nine so yeah I didn't even like athletics I did long distance running but I'd never even tried the 400 meters or it was just another sport yeah so with the interesting thing is you had this sort of competitiveness about you whether you were doing BMX or cross country or rugby, whatever you were playing, you just hadn't found your sport.

6:46So with BMX, you were like number two in the country as a kid, right? Yeah, that was weird. All that was, was my babysitter one night was babysitting. He said, oh, you want to get a BMX for Christmas? I said, why is that? I've got one. He goes, yeah, it's rubbish. They're building a BMX track in Godmanchester. That was the village I grew up in. And I reckon you could be quite good. So my parents got me a secondhand BMX for Christmas. and literally that season the track was opened I was competing like on on a I would say the world stage but nationally I was right up there and I ended up going to two world championships I came forth in a European championships all from doing a sport that I just loved really if I'm honest showing off I knew I could jump the jumps higher than my mates faster than my mates and I was better than them but I kind of think through BMX I did learn a lot about myself from that very young age I learned about competition I learned about disappointment I learned about failure but I also learned how addictive winning could be and it just became I mean I don't know if I was born with that in me my brother was really sporty but he never really made it he could have done so what made me different to my brother I don't know but I think there's something inside that I've always wanted to be the best that I can be and I just don't like losing yeah I mean there's I guess there's several things that gave you that edge that I was definitely picking up on in the book.

8:04One is a sort of sense of fearlessness that you seem to just have. You turned up in the world with maybe you don't have that so much now. I think all of us with age start to lose that fearlessness. But you seem to just have no fear at the start line, whether it's BMX or 400 metres. You didn't have a fear that was debilitating. No, even take that to the local playing fields or swimming in the local river where my mates would say, look at that tree. no one's jumped the top the top branch it's like 40 foot I go what's this then and I would have no fear I'd go straight to the top of a tree from the age of probably eight or nine and just jump off into the murky water below being scared but not wanting to show that fear to them but no I think as you said it's only when you get older and you realize the consequences of your actions that fear really sets in I think all young kids you know you don't know what what pain is do you physically or mental so you just kind of go for things and I think from the young age sport for me there was probably fear of failure and that was about it I was never fearful of hurting myself or not even so much letting people down because I was really super confident in my ability but I didn't have that in the classroom funnily enough so I was a really nervous boy I couldn't read out loud in class I'd never want to get picked to do any questions at the stand up at the front even even when I went to university I found it really scary to talk in front of a lecture theatre of maybe 20 or 30 people was fast forward to now I'll host the world championships in front of 80 ,000 and love it and I'll be disappointed if there's only 30 ,000 the more the better so I've just grown to be more confident within my own self of doing something like that but as a youngster sport and me and danger in particular I had no fear of danger whatsoever yeah I mean You know, like reading about the BMX jumps that you were doing, that's like, that is life or death if you make a jump sometimes.

9:51You know, you could break your back, but you were like, I'm going for it, I'm doing it. Yeah, I wouldn't think of what ifs, you know, what if I fell off. I think about how cool is it going to be for my mates to see that I've jumped the triples or whatever it might be. You know, and even little things like jumping at my parents' bedroom window or jumping my bike for a bonfire and my dad sat up in the garden and was shouting, what are you doing? You know, I think I almost wanted to be like a stuntman. And I think as a kid, it was really weird. My career choice as a youngster, I said to my mum, I'm going to be a policeman or a stuntman.

10:23That's all I wanted to do. Strange. Well, you went off on a big tangent there. Yeah, definitely. I mean, the one bit of fear that is detectable through reading your book, which I should name check, brutal, is that you didn't want to disappoint your dad. That seemed to be a real driving force, whether you liked it or not, that that was always in the back of your mind when you're on a start line that you didn't want to disappoint your dad. Where do you think that fear came from? I think with my dad, it's a strange one because I don't want to sit here and say anything bad about him because it's a different generation.

10:51And I think I've also got to look into how was my grandfather, who I unfortunately didn't really know very well. How was he with my dad when he was bringing my dad up? But my dad was very of the generation where winning is everything. Or he was very, he was military. So he was in the RAF. So he was very driven himself. he grew up in like north london from not wealthy background whatsoever quite a poor family and he worked his way up to an rf group captain which is the equivalent of a colonel in the army so but that's been really successful and i think from a young age i could sense that from him i could sense a disappointment if i didn't do well now i don't think he meant that to put pressure on me or to make me scared of not winning but I think he demanded excellence in everything I did and if I didn't produce that or deliver that in my mind I was letting him down and it's a weird one because we've never even really addressed this I've never really spoken to him about it but I feel in everything I do rightly or wrongly I think I could have maybe done better and my dad will pick up on that so for example fast forward to I win the European Championships of course he's make her proud of me whereas everyone else would say oh my god that was amazing my dad would be the first to say I think you could have run a bit quicker on that one you eased up a bit down the back straight could have gone quicker next race pick it up more so I also think he's like that to me perhaps that in my career he didn't want me to become complacent he didn't want me to think oh I've made it I'm Billy Big Bollocks I'm this I'm that because I never have felt like that but maybe my dad kept me grounded or tried to keep me grounded by being the way he is but if he wasn't how he is and is to me now then maybe I wouldn't have been successful on the athletics track I don't know so I I think I owe my parents I listen black and white I owe my parents everything because when I finished uni there was no funding in athletics the lottery funding wasn't around and I sat down with my parents they said what do you want to do now And I was like, I don't want to get a real job.

12:59You know, I didn't say that, but I didn't want to get a real job. And I'd started to run quite well, but not well enough that I was beating the Roger Blacks of this world or even near the Michael Johnsons of this world. But my parents could see I had something. And, you know, I was a second slower than the best in the world, which is a lot, but it isn't a lot. And I thought if I train every day, so my dad said, listen, I'll pay for you to move to Southampton. I'll pay your accommodation for a year. It's the 96 Olympics coming up. you get a part-time job of which I got myself a job at next working in next.

13:32So I worked like eight till four, eight till five went home, had a bit to eat, went training and trained my heart out every single session to the point. I'm sick every day of the week just to show my dad I'm trying and it worked out. But if my, if my dad hadn't financially backed me and helped me, I wouldn't have been an athlete. So for any traits of his that might be deemed a little bit, pushy a little bit strict I've got to say now later on in life he's he's proven to be an amazing dad I'm really proud of him it's so interesting because I think even if you look at it from the perspective of a parent I think we all struggle with knowing how to go about that what the balance is of showing your kids that you've got more in you than you believe you have but also saying to them you don't have to stress yourself out I feel confused about that one constantly with my own kids if like actually for instance this morning my daughter knew today she had athletics and they were doing hurdles and she's a really good sprinter but she hates the hurdles and she was getting herself tied in knots about it imagining it being the worst her tripping over and embarrassing herself all of those things and part of me wants to go you don't have to do it I'll tell the teacher we'll pull you out of it but then the other part of me is going I think you need to give this a go, to try it, to maybe experience failure, but also to prove to yourself that you might just do it.

14:59I think it's such a hard one. So I always think hats off to people like your dad for having a very clear focus on what that style of parenting will be and second guessing how that might impact you and him hoping for the best, which it turns out it was for you. I think he had to play bad cop a little bit as well to a certain degree because my mum was soft with me. so I'm like that with my kids I'm the soft one my partner's a tough one but my mum my mum is the most loving amazing person I'm so lucky to have had my mum she's she's awesome she was like I'm a blue-eyed boy you know anything I did it was fine my dad my dad wouldn't know and he's got to be in the second set at least for maths it's not good enough with my mum we'd be all right in life so there was a real conflict between my parents growing up and I remember that you know my dad my dad really believed in academia and that is the way to go my brother is very academic and he was a straight-A student went to boarding school from a young age I didn't whereas my dad feared for me I think in life in terms of what I'm going to turn out to be am I going to be okay whereas my mum could see my personality and everything was great because I lived at home with my mum my brother was at boarding school my dad was away with his job Monday to Friday so although obviously my dad knew me but my mum saw the real me 24 7 so I think she could sense I was going to be all right in life whatever I did because my dad was like not sure not sure his brother's doing so well at school where's he going to go whereas my mum was all right it will work out right and I would say that to the young me and I'd say that to my kids because I am a real worrier in life because I did worry you know before athletics you know what am I going to do I clearly wasn't going to be as successful as my brother through school and university and I think I look back now in life and I think all the mistakes I've made in my life and all the bad things that have happened to me are actually the things that have made me.

16:48So I think, you know, going back to your daughter with the hurdles, I bet she'll do really well today. I won't say smash it. That's the wrong terminology. You don't want to smash it. But no, I bet because she's got that fear and she's worried about it. She'll probably, fear's a great thing in sport as well. You do need it. You know, you do need that. If you haven't got the butterflies, you don't care. So I think she'd do fine. And if not, she'll come back better next time. Yeah. It's such a tricky one. It is. And I wonder what your relationship with excellence is today, because when you've got that set in stone from a young age, that there's that expectation that you will do your absolute best and that you could always push it a little bit further.

17:22And you were doing that on a global scale, on an international level where you're in the top, I don't even know what the percentage is, 0.something percent of people that can run the 400 metres in the most insanely quick time. over time as you change as a human as you age and your fitness sort of halts to some degree you move it well goes and you move into different areas where you want to start again but you've still got that niggling feeling that you've got to be the best best best can you let that go or is that something that still drives you and pushes you in all areas the only thing that's made me chill out with my mindset of having to succeed is my children which has changed absolutely everything but before that I think I went from being an athlete and my career kind of fizzled out and it was bad I had lots of injuries lots of dark years not knowing where I was going to go I then decided or actually didn't decide I fell into the kind of broadcasting world if you like and that's a real cutthroat world for someone to go into like me who does have their downs because I felt with the athletics, if the selectors didn't like you or not, it didn't really matter.

18:32The stopwatch didn't lie. If you run quick enough, they're picking you. You're running for Britain. You're the fastest. You can hate me if you want. I'm the best in that GB vest. I'm getting selected. You then go into the TV world and I might think I'm the best person for that job. And I think I've nailed that audition or I think I'm a shoo-in for that job. And someone else gets it. And you sit back at home watching. And you don't mean to be like this, but you can't help it. You judge. well I'm better than that I could have done that why didn't I get it and it just could because they didn't like you it wasn't the right mix of people for that show or whatever it might be but it's really hard to take because there's so much rejection and so many no's whereas before I was used to if my body wasn't letting me down and I wasn't injured I was used to the door being open from everyone so that that was a really hard one to take to accept I might think I'm a really good presenter or a good reporter whatever it is but if the execs don't think i am i'm not getting the job that was quite hard it's a horrible industry i know that's why i'm not in it much anymore but it is isn't it because you it's so it's so shit and also because it's your personality it's not something that you can change because if you want to be yourself and authentic you just show up as you and then that's being judged so it feels like the essence of you is somewhat being pulled apart And that's really hard.

19:47I mean, I've been in the lowest place, not just because of that, not exclusively because of that critique, but certainly it's pushed me further into a pit of despair of, oh, my God, I don't like these things about myself. And now other people are also highlighting them. So they must be true. And I think it takes a lot to actually go against the grain of that sort of rhetoric. It's really hard. I thought it was really brilliant when I saw the interview you did with Prince Harry, where he was doing a whole mental health campaign with Prince William and the Princess of Wales. And that seemed to be the first time publicly that you'd properly said even the word depression.

20:26Yeah. How how was that to sort of talk about that out loud for the first time? It was weird because I've got a really good close knit group of mates who would do anything for me. But I felt like I felt I couldn't talk to them ever. so when my career started going downhill and it was evident my body couldn't train more than two days a week which is not good enough you know I'm not going to compete on the world stage I went through years of thinking well what am I going to do and I felt I couldn't talk to my close friends about it because to the outside world in the materialistic bullshit world my mates are all really good people so taxi drivers my mate gumbo cuts the grass for the council you know just down to earth good people yeah so I felt if I said to them listen taxi tim or listen gumbo i'm struggling here they were what have you got to struggle about and your five bedroom mouse with your two sports cars with a driver whatever it might be and all that is rubbish it doesn't mean anything to me but i felt i couldn't turn to the people closest to me because i didn't want to burden them and i didn't want to show any weakness i've gone from a world where i'm six foot two fifteen and a half stone muscle bound fast running machine and all of a sudden i said i'm at home actually i'm injured again and i don't i don't know where i'm going i don't know what I'm going to do, who am I?

21:38Then I just felt I was showing a weakness to, if I did get back, my rivals would think, well, I've seen him talk about depression. We can get inside his head. And I was the one tough person on the start line you wouldn't mess with. Although I'm the nicest guy when I raced, I switched. So I felt by showing any weakness to the outside world, I didn't want to admit, I didn't want to admit that I was in a horrible place and it got so low. And then there I am flipping burgers with Prince Harry and I just open up I don't know why I just I suppose I think if he can be honest about his struggles in his life and he's a part of the royal family then who am I to hide I owe it to myself and I owe it to other people to be honest and I and I couldn't be more ashamed of myself for not being honest sooner because as soon as I did speak I felt I'd helped other people I'd lots of people contact me and say thank you for being honest I'm struggling as well and there's loads of people out there who you know it doesn't care it doesn't depression or anxiety or whatever it is it doesn't care if you drive a white van for the council or you remember the royal family yeah it really and also i think it's so important and and we have to keep reiterating the fact that this conversation for men is newer and that's a massive shame you know maybe just naturally and this is maybe a bit of a generalization but women do feel like they could say to their best mate I'm having a bit of a crap time I don't know what to do or just sort of open up to someone whereas I think there for many men out there there is still this block that stops them from saying I'm really struggling here or or even knowing who to turn to so I think it is a conversation we need to keep having again and again would you say that your moments of lowness and moments of depression were all due to circumstance?

23:29Or do you think there was something in you anyway that maybe you had the propensity to go into a low space, regardless of whether you were going through a period of injury or not? Yeah, I think when I look back at my life, I think I only remember a happy child. I can't, you know, I think definitely there's a chemical imbalance somewhere. I think some people are more prone to getting depression, anxiety, low points, whatever it might be. definitely circumstance did not help you know being injured being taken out of the arena where it was all about being the best and then when you aren't the best anymore it chips away at your self-worth 100 but i think inside i must have something in me that unfortunately is open to dark days you know for me now i just i can sense when it's coming now so for me going to the gym is my is my happy place you know that's the place where i can go to where no one judges me and i come back and i always feel great i've never for example come back from a run feeling worse than when i set off it's a pain in the ass to open the door and take the first couple of steps horrible but you come back and i feel really good yeah so for me if i feel i'm getting low for whatever reason it might be i can sense it and i'm going training and i have to but i think in terms of circumstance or whether it's something innate inside me i think it's a bit of both i think unfortunately i don't remember it as a kid because i just remember being happy all the time with my mates but i think probably when i became a teenager and then anxiety about exams not living up to my brother or my dad's expectations perhaps then you start to feel worried and i'm definitely a worrier and the smallest little stupid things make me worry yeah and i look back now and i think well don't worry about that I'm I'm like that now I like that it floors me and I have to like luckily my husband is really chilled and really laid back and I'll go I'm really worried about blah blah and he's like just don't worry like he can diffuse it thank god I'm very lucky that he is not the same as me we're a great team then together but I think you can't underestimate what you went through and the and the pressure and the publicness of it I think that just adds so much volume to any self-loathing or dark days is when you've got you're in that arena with everyone you know everyone's got an opinion everyone thinks they know who you are and what you're about yeah and you know obviously every athlete has a completely different journey and different experience of success and a different exit door that they have to leave through yours felt particularly harsh at times you had these amazing years like 97 and 1998 which we were just discussing before we started recording was when we first met back in back in the 90s on a kids tv show apparently involving some sort of red double deck of bus or something but you had these exceptional years where like you said the door's opening for you you are one of the fastest humans on the planet unfortunately you happen to also be around the same time as michael johnson which was just bad luck just bad luck but you were up there as one of the best athletes on the planet and I mean first of all let's talk about that what was that like at 22 you're at the Olympics I mean that must have just been you've been training for like a year at this point yeah not even a year just left next yeah no I've been training months really so yeah I think I think for me why it probably hurts so much and why the dark days were so dark is it all happened so fast but it all went so quickly as well so literally I left university um and my dad said go to and give it a go that year within maybe two races i'm ranked the fourth fastest britain ever and then that year went to the olympics made the 400 meter final i'm in lane eight right next to the crowd the great michael johnson's inside lane four and it's just the noise i thought you know i've gone from being in all honesty a pisshead student who's out three nights a week to then moving to southampton and within five six months i'm in the olympic final and it and it's just crazy and then we do the relay and we get a silver and atlanta if people remember was the worst olympics for great britain ever like medal medal hall was disgraceful that's where the lottery funding came in the next year but from a pure selfish point the fact that britain did so badly but yet here i am straight out of uni i come away with a silver medal in the relay i went from working and next to signing a four-year deal with a shoe company worth a lot of money and it was like what the fuck is happening?

27:58Like literally, oh my God. Yeah, I went from living in a horrible little bedsit to buying a house. You know, everything changed. And I'm not talking like footballers wages or anything, but really good money. Going from, I don't know, four quid an hour to signing big deals. And it was just like, but that didn't matter to me. That was just a consequence of running fast. But there I was, I'm on the world stage and I'm rubbing shoulders with the Michael Johnsons of this world. And I think it's only going to get better. And then 97, I got the British record, which stood for 25 years. Off the back of that, I get a Madame Tussauds waxwork.

28:31I mean, all this stuff is mental. I was the second athlete ever at the time behind Jesse Owens to be voted to be in Madame Tussauds. I've got an MBE and my mate Gumbo and Tim, they're like, what's going on? So I don't know. And it just, it kind of just went from, I believed I could be good. I believed I had the ability. I mean, listen, I think genetically, I was right for the 400 metres, you know the long long rangy stride length and more than that i was not only was i not afraid of hard work i fucking loved it yeah and that became a problem because i was addicted to the pain of training as silly as it sounds like we're a trained inst ampton there's three car parks there's one right at the track there's one about a five minute walk there's one at the top of the ski center which is something like 87 steps from the bottom to the top and all my mates go why I don't know if you park at the ski centre and to them, I just go, I prefer it's a bit more private.

29:27The honest truth is I knew at the end of doing a session of six 300s when I've already been throwing up afterwards for an hour, Mark Richards and Jamie Balsh, you know, Roger Black, they wouldn't then walk up a load of steps, probably stop twice more to be sick. Their cords burning when they get in the car. So in my eyes, I've trained hard on anyone. And not only that, I've had to walk up a load of bastard steps before I get into my car. so I would do it because I pushed myself that little bit more and I think now I look back with hindsight I probably well I definitely I pushed my body too much I trained too hard and a lot of my injuries were self-inflicted purely because of that desire to be the best and to beat Michael Johnson and to make people proud all of it comes back to I think at the time to start with getting my father's acceptance but then it became the acceptance of the British public Like, you know, the people down the street would stop me going, okay, nice one.

30:19I watched you race last night. Amazing. And as great as that felt, it then felt when the injuries came in, I was letting everyone down. Oh, but that is such a lot to carry on your back. It was horrible. That you're not just doing it for your own pleasure or goal setting. It's all of this shit that you're having to carry. And we should just point out that the 400 metre race is known as the death race. It is the hardest race because you're sprinting, but it's essentially long distance. It's not a quick nine seconds and you're done. It's the whole bloody track. I mean, do you think there is something in your personality, like you're describing with this need to push yourself to your vomiting on the steps?

31:00Is there something in you that likes to pick the hardest route? You pick the hardest race. You pushed your body to the nth degree. Is there something in you that that needs to to struggle? maybe i'm just thinking out loud maybe it's a form of i hate saying it but maybe it's a form of self-harming maybe it is just a self-hatred i don't i don't know i mean the truth is i did the 400 because i won that by the biggest margin on sports day i would have i'd rather have been a 200 meter runner but i wasn't good enough at 200 but um yeah maybe there's certainly something special about the 400 where you're coming up the home straight and it's 30 meters to go and you're looking across and you're all fucked it's all now who wants it the most who can embrace the pain who loves lactic acid and and doesn't pussy out with all due respect and that is what i loved i love putting myself on the line against arguably the other best strongest fastest people in the world so i loved getting back to that warm-up track afterwards and laying on my honestly laying on my back for maybe 40 minutes afterwards before i could move just thinking i did it and equally other days when I didn't thinking this hurts not only does it hurt the feeling of the lactic going from my body but the pain of I've just let myself down and I can't wait for Thursday because I'm racing again in Zurich and those Americans are going to get it you know I just loved pitting myself against the best to try and be the best that I could be maybe maybe it is a form of I don't know maybe because I'm still like it a little bit now you know I did wonder reading the book if there were some what ifs still and I think there most people I think have a couple of what ifs like what if I had done that thing or I think for me personally mine are probably what ifs what if I hadn't done that thing do you know what I mean I think a lot of us have that what if I hadn't done that life would have been so much easier I probably wouldn't be who I am today but life would have been easier and I think we all live with that day-to-day you can call them regrets or what ifs whatever do you feel that about let's just compartmentalize it your athletics career because you had those moments of absolute glory and sadly injury took you out of it and you didn't get to have your final goodbye or final hurrah how do you make peace with those what ifs i had to have counseling about that i'll be honest i had to go and seek professional help because that chance of not being able to close the door on my own terms was killing me the fact that I've reached that height and then my body let me down and I kept trying to get back get back back a little glimmer of hope I might get back no you're injured again and I never had the chance to say goodbye to the people say goodbye to myself get that self-worth and be able to do that little lap of honor and say right I finished my career it finished all right you know and and I went through years of resentment not in this is totally bad and selfish of me but I would look at athletes even up to 2012 and I said you do not know how lucky you are you bastards to be in the peak of your performance your prime of your career in front of a home crowd I would have given anything just to be able to say goodbye hope I've served you all well but because it was taken away and my career fizzled away it was like I used to be a good runner that guy what happened to that bloke and that's how it felt because I didn't have my final closure it was like I don't know It's like I'd studied all my life and then I got to the end of year exams and I got hit by a bus.

34:22You know what I mean? And I couldn't have closure. And all I wanted to ever do was to sort of say thank you to the British public for their support. And I felt that I robbed them of that and robbed myself of that nice ending to my career. And it took a long, long time to deal with that. And actually, I look back now and I think perhaps all the dark years and all that horrible feeling inside of not having that closure, maybe that's made me a better dad you know i try and find goodness in everything and maybe if i had let's just say maybe my career had gone like amazing johnson retires i become the olympic champion you know i smashed the european record i'm then the world champion i'm all that maybe and i don't think this would have happened but maybe i'm an arsehole yeah maybe i've maybe i'm some superstar athlete who's got everything he ever wanted and i look down on people i treat people like shit that wouldn't have happened but it could have happened and that's not me I've got the same mates I've had since I was 11 years old I know what it's like to hurt I know what it's like to have to try and reinvent myself and work again and earn a living so I think maybe I'd like to think that things do happen for a reason yes it would have been lovely to have that closure and to finish on my own terms but just perhaps if I had had that I wouldn't be the person I became and I wouldn't be the dad for me it's all about being the best dad in the world everything and I try and you know think back to moments in my career good and bad which have made me hopefully the better person and I can honestly say it's always the bad times that I've learned more from than the good times you know it's like when life's going well you take it for granted yeah of course I've won a race yeah I've run a British record oh it's wicked yeah it's cool what's next Madame de Sourde lovely what's next NBA you know things were coming to me so fast it was only when you've just fucked up the world championship final you've come sixth in a race you probably could have won it.

36:13I'm devastated. I'm distraught through the next winter training. I've got pain in my tummy, but the fire is in my belly because of that. I then turn the pain and the hatred towards myself of tactically running so badly into a positive into, right, this season, I'm not feeling like that again. I'm never going to run so badly in a major championship final because I know the pain it caused me. So I learned from the mistake. and perhaps it's the same with things relationships or being a dickhead in the real world things I've done which I now regret but actually maybe if I hadn't done those things I wouldn't be where I am now and I'm not I'm not I'm not saying I'm in the world's happiest place all the time and life is great because it's not because I still get my down days but at least I know how to deal with it now completely and I think we've all got this strange belief that people who reach the top top which you did anyway because as we said you're in this tiny tiny percentage of people that are on the world stage as one of the fastest runners on the planet but I think we always think people that reach the top whether it's in tv or sports or business whatever sector it is that they must feel something that we don't that because they are called the number one they've won the oscar they've got the olympic gold whatever it might be they are the ceo of the biggest company they must feel something that we can't access I think it's utter bollocks out of all the people that I've met who are top top of their game biggest actors in the world whatever it might be they're no happier they don't feel any different if they do they're probably slightly deluded or a bit of a knobhead but the majority of people don't feel any different they're still reaching for something they're still trying to climb a little bit higher searching for whatever that thing is that they don't feel they've got hold of so i wonder if you would feel any different at all no maybe your bar is not that high in life maybe your bar's there and if you reach that you're mega happy but if you're always searching for the bar that's too high you're never going to be content and that's where i was at in my life because i was always searching for the next best thing the next time the faster race you know i was always searching for the next best thing trying to keep up the joneses when in reality the joneses aren't happy you don't want to be happy you don't want to be miserable the changes but you know i mean you want to i think you just need to find that that place in life when you surround yourself with good people i mean i made a conscious decision a couple of years ago to get rid of a couple of people in my life who are a little bit draining a bit deadwood life laundry yeah yeah so i just thought i try and surround myself with people who don't judge and are just good people and care about the friends who phone me and go how are you doing are you all right yeah because i always feel i'm the one looking out for others i've got mates of mine who check on me all the time and they're the salt of the earth they're the real people so i think you're right i think the most successful people in the world aren't going to be the happiest because if they've reached it to the deemed top where's their next top going to come from you can only get to the height of everest there's nowhere higher but for them they were always searching for higher i've got mates who are entrepreneurs who are very financially successful but are they happy don't know no probably not The market's uncertain.

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40:48So you don't need superpowers to get everything done. You just need Wix. Try it now for free at Wix.com. Hey, hate to do this. Could we resketch our morning hike? I was just about to ask the same. Next week? Yes, it's Duncan original blend time. Staying at home with Duncan? Don't mind if I do. The home with Duncan is where you want to be.

41:14Where does that go now? Like, where does that energy, what are you putting that into now? Now, if you've still got that drive to feel the burn, feel the pain, push yourself, what are you doing with that? Well, I can't physically do what I used to do, but I'll always try and push myself. So in January this year, I did my first ever strong. I train in a strongman gym, basically. I train in a gym where the women and men are all, I'll say this carefully, but all big burly people who do the Atlas stones, who lift the logs. There's not one mirror in my gym. It's not, oh, I feel good about myself, get on the treadmill.

41:44There's none of that. It's a proper grafter's gym. and they did like a novice strongman competition in January and I thought I'll do that and I'm up against 20 year olds and I'm 50 and I absolutely smash them all yeah and I just feel great and then rewind three years ago I did I had a bet with a mate of mine that I she but I couldn't do an ultra marathon so I was like what's an ultra they said anything over marathon distance she said you could do a 50 mile race and people would well respect you but if you want to be known as a double hard bastard you want to do the centurion south downs way 100 miles a third of the height of Everest I said I'll do it because you can't do that yes I can and I did it very slowly this I did it I mean this this narrative is threaded through the whole of your book which is chronological bar these little inserts where you talk about this horrendous 100 mile race that you took part in which sounded not only almost impossible but terrifying because you're running at night in the pitch black but what we should mention is that you had a deeper incentive this wasn't at this point just about you pushing yourself to the point of puking and feeling physical pain let's talk about your son teddy and and and that motivation that felt like something completely new in the mix for you yeah this was never a race i was going to win i was never going to be competitive and it was never about me so my boy teddy was born uh group b strep and we'd never even heard of that so when he was born he was fine amazing i was so proud i burst into tears i couldn't believe i was a dad went home four hours later i get a call saying quick he stopped breathing he's in intensive care i was like what you've made a mistake well i've just seen him and so i went back and yeah basically for 10 days he was fighting for his life in intensive care with a infection we'd never even heard of.

43:34One in 10 babies who survive and come out of hospital will still die. The majority, I don't know, percentage will be brain damage, have cerebral palsy, lots of lifelong complications. And luckily, Teddy's pretty much okay. He has a few respiratory issues and he's been back in hospital quite a lot. But he came out okay. But I just felt from that point, I had to do something to raise awareness for this horrible illness, this horrible threat to a little baby that we weren't even aware of. So I decided to do the 100 mile on the one condition I could publicize a group B strep support, a charity who helps families deal with their loss or the fact that their child's got strep B.

44:17So I did the race with a picture of Teddy in my pocket and I had written on my arm for those less fortunate. And that's what got me to the finish line, knowing that if I could just if I could just reach one family, if I could just get the message out to one pregnant mother-to-be, please get tested, there's something called strep B out there and it can be harmful to your baby, then I didn't give a shit about the pain I went through. And in fact, I did go through a lot of pain. I couldn't run for two years afterwards. I broke my foot. I was in absolute agony, but I knew I wouldn't quit. I knew I'd get to that finish line because I had to, because I had to, I owed it to every pregnant woman out there, every family-to-be, to try and tell them about this horrible illness that that could affect them yeah it's a lot more common than any of us believe and it's not one in four women naturally carry this bacteria without even knowing and they won't necessarily pass on to their child their unborn baby but if they do it's devastating it can be devastating i mean it's essential that these things are talked about because again it could so easily get missed and you just don't know about it or hear about it and then you end up in the situation that you guys were that sounded unbelievably heartbreaking and stressful um and And also, even when you were in the middle of that race, you found out that Teddy had been hospitalised during...

45:33You're running this bloody 100-mile thing and you know that your little boy's gone to hospital. I mean, awful. He met me at mile 25, 26, about marathon distance. They met me at an aid station. So I gave him a hug and he wasn't himself. He was really pale and quite limp and he was coughing a lot. And I said to my partner, is he all right? And she said, yeah, yeah, he's fine. Don't worry, he's just got a bit of a cough. He'll be fine. and I ran on and I knew he wasn't fine so I got to about mile 50 and I spoke to my mate Susie who was help crew me so from mile 50 you allow people to help you someone run alongside you so I said what what's the situation with Teddy he's not all right she goes yeah he's fine he's fine and I stopped I said just don't lie to me I know he's not he said okay he's been rushed into a hospital he's not okay now I had a massive decision then to make because this was drawing COVID so only one parent was allowed in hospital anyway so I thought right do I stop now bearing in mind I'm in the middle of nowhere like literally nowhere try and get to a village get a taxi and get back to Southampton or do I finish the race for Teddy and I had to just I got on the finish line get to the finish line as quick as I can then I'll get home to Teddy but that really was the worst time ever in terms of it was night time it was getting dark I didn't know where I was I I was disorientated anyway.

46:49Then I had that horrible decision to whether to stop and use the word quit, which I don't like anyway, or finish for my boy. So I finished for him. And he's now how old? Five. And so he still has some health complications. He's in hospital. I'm going to touch with it. He's much, much better. So his immune system was really, really damaged. So normally where most children would go to nursery and come back and get a cold, they're better four days later. He'd be off for about a month to six weeks with a chest infection every time he's ill. So he's constantly on steroid-based inhalers and all sorts of antibiotics and bits and pieces.

47:22But this year, he's had literally one bad stint and that is it. So he's a little strong trooper. So I think naturally he's getting stronger and he's fighting it. So when he gets ill now, he'll be ill for like five days and he's good. But he's at the age, it seems, where he sort of understands what's going on. There was a conversation in the book where he's saying, oh, why am I always ill, Dad? And that must be really hard to know what to say to him or how to encourage him and to help him through that well I remember one night he was up being because he coughs so much he can't breathe and then he's sick and he just can't get in it get any air in so he was being sick and I remember one time he just said he just looked at me he said daddy I don't want to be ill anymore and it's hard I mean what do I say he was he was four when he said that what I mean how can I take that away but what I do say to him now is when we are in hospital getting tests done and he says why me daddy you know what why am I always here And I just say, could I tell him I'm a superhero anyway?

48:16And he thinks I am. So I show him videos of me running. He said, God, you used to win. I went, I've got superpowers. Don't tell anyone. It's a secret. I said, you've got it as well. He said, does Dougie, my brother, have it? He said, he doesn't have it. And I said, because you're a superhero, you have to be ill sometimes because otherwise it's not fair on the other kids. If you didn't have these problems, you'll be so much faster than everyone, so much stronger. Then you've got to give them a chance. So I sell it to him that it's God's way of just making him on a level playing field because he's so much better to start with.

48:46And that's how I say to him, you're special. That's why you go to hospital. Oh, little Teddy. I'm so glad that he's doing well, though. He's amazing. Honestly, my boys. You've got three boys now. Three boys, Dougie, Teddy and Bowie, who's like 16 weeks old. 16 weeks? Yeah, yeah. Oh, my God. You've got a newbie. A newbie. Oh, sweet. Yeah, I think this is tough to say, but I actually think if my life hadn't changed, if I didn't have my boys, I sometimes don't know if I'd actually, I've never said this, I don't know if I'd be here. They are my life. And everything I went through as an athlete, good and bad, it's all totally nothing compared to being with my boys.

49:28You know, my medals, my boys sometimes, like Teddy will say, you've got medals. I don't even look at my medals, but they're my medals. like my boys are they saved me they saved me I think definitely because they when I feel down or anything now they're my reason to somehow get out of that low they're my reason to give all all my love goes to my boys like everything and when people talk about lockdown and COVID and it was horrific i lost my friend aaron to covid and it was a tough tough time but apart from that and the the hell it brought so many families for me it was the best thing that ever happened because i was home all the time work dried up and i was at home doing all the diy crap jobs i said i'd do years for years i end up doing stuff around the house which i've been promised i'd do but i i was with teddy every day yeah and teddy doesn't understand like when i do work now he doesn't understand it so normally if I work it'd be for longer periods so to go to the world champs to host those in America or Paris this year whatever it is but he doesn't understand that most mummy and daddies go to work every day in the morning then they come back at five or six in the evening because I'm around so much he thinks that's a normal but I'm so grateful for that I'm so grateful and I came into fatherhood really late like I'm 50 I'm old a lot of my lots of my mates had kids when they were younger but it wasn't right for me it wasn't the right time I was so selfish as an athlete I was I wasn't a nice person I mean you have to be selfish would you say can you can you get to the world stage in athletics and not be pretty single-minded I'm assuming that you have to be you have to be but you can't you could be a father as well I remember in 94 my first championships Commonwealth Games I'm sharing with Jamie Balsh my good mate and he found out at the time his then partner Susanna was pregnant with her first child and um I just thought our lives are miles apart here but we're the same age and we're doing the same job it's not even a job is it we're doing the same thing we love you know but yeah you you know you make do but I look at people like Jamie and Darren Campbell who had kids while they were still athletes I think oh well did you do that I mean I'm knackered now from having to get up twice in the night oh it's exhausting yeah it's life changing it's so horrible in many ways but it's amazing yeah parenthood is the best thing ever and I and I genuinely think as I said if it wasn't for my boys I they put they got me on the right the right path I think and they made me like myself again as well yeah do you know what it's a subject that we haven't touched on and something that you talk about in the book a few times and I think one of the most relatable subjects we can talk about is self-loathing because nearly everyone that we know everyone listening to this will have had bouts of it if not experience it daily I go through massive bouts of it less so probably today but I can so easily get sucked back into it and I'll probably be in it for about a week where I want to jump out of my own skin I'm such in this sort of low self-loathing feeling it's the absolute pits it obviously can come paired with depression anxiety all sorts of things and it can very much live on its own and it is hideous to experience yours a lot of the time was tied up in either injury, not being able to race, having to watch races that you were meant to be in on the TV, excruciating, or not coming in the top three.

52:57That seemed to really trigger this sort of sense of self-loathing. Where are you at with that today? I'm way better. But I think at any walk of life, you know, you can have days when people judge you or worst of all, as you said, you judge yourself and you feel bad about yourself. And for people that don't get it, they're like, well, just snap out of it. Well, you know, you're all right. or you've got to feel bad about. But it's so difficult when you get into that pit, that despair, and you think there's no way out. And eventually you'll have a good day, then a bad day, a bit of a better day, and you'll love it.

53:26For me anyway, I know I'll get out of it, but I'm also not stupid enough to know it's around the corner as well. A bad day can come back at any time. And it could be the most insignificant little thing that will set me off. And I think afterwards, why did I let that trigger it? But it will, and it does. so I think people who are going through something like that first of all realize you won't be alone in your feelings and and the one regret I have is not speaking to people not reaching out or not being honest I put on this facade of like you know I went out with my mates drinking on Friday for example and I always feel I have to be at the front of the jokes or like making looking out for everyone else and you know sometimes that means I don't look out for myself you know I've got friends now who are going through stuff and that and life can be cruel it can be horrible i've got a mate of mine whose wife has got cancer my mate's dad is terminal at the moment you know and i feel i'm looking out for them and checking they're all right and i know they do the same for me but i think sometimes you can take on too much yeah and then you have to somehow find the market's uncertain revenues tied and hiring on hold that's why results driven companies are using Upwork to keep work moving.

54:42Go to Upwork.com today and start hiring proven freelance talent fast. No bulky overhead, no rigid long-term contracts, just the right expert right when you need them. Work smarter and faster with Upwork. Go to Upwork.com now and find your freelance expert. That's U-P-W-O-R-K.com. Post a job for free and get started today. Hi, this is Knox from the Popcast with Knox and Jamie. And maybe like us at the Popcast, you also know people who have been smokers or vapors. And Zen is the one product it seems like everyone is talking about because there are many good reasons to make a change to Zen nicotine pouches.

55:18Reasons like Zen nicotine pouches are still America's number one choice for smoke-free, hands-free nicotine satisfaction. And you can choose between 10 varieties, each variety available in either 3 or 6 milligrams. Check out zen.com slash find to find Zen at a store near you. Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical. Hey, hate to do this. Could we resketch our morning hike? I was just about to ask the same next week. Yes, it's Duncan original blend time. Staying at home with Duncan? Don't mind if I do. The home with Duncan is where you want to be.

55:57Your happy place, your place which can help get you slowly out of your pit. And for me, as I said, it's the gym. It's going for a run or it's being with my boys, you know, Taking them to soft play, which I curse and I hate soft play. Soft play is so awful. I know, but they like it. They love it and you've just got to go with it. You go with it. They're going to pick up all sorts of bugs and it's disgusting. It's so loud and gross, but they are happy as bits and shit. So you've got to do it. Imagine how I feel. For you as well, anyone who's put themselves first, I went from a lifestyle where it was all about me.

56:32And as horrible as this is, I ruined previous relationships. I was an arsehole. Because if I didn't get from A to B as quickly as I could, because something was in my way, I would eliminate that in my life. Yeah, because it was all about me and that was horrible. So I've gone from that life where it was all about me, packing my little rucksack, going on a little plane, racing in Zurich, coming home, going off somewhere else. Now I'm in soft play. Listen, that's fucking killing me. The noise goes through me. And the little kids jumping around and mess everywhere. And I think, where's my life gone?

57:02But actually, then I have to have a word for myself. this is my life now and it's a better life it's different but it's a great life because you know and also what I love about being a dad as well you know I talk I hope not harshly but in my book I do talk about how strict my dad was but god he's a great granddad he's amazing with my kids and I think well I know at my birthday this year my 50th I had a little party and my dad took to the mic and I didn't think he was going to speak and he said some stuff there and honestly I could I could die tomorrow and I'm happy because he said things that I I didn't know he felt about me and it was so lovely to hear he stood up and and he admitted his own thoughts and he said in front of a room full of people and more importantly me he just said that he I'm an amazing dad when he sees me with his children he said I only wish I'd been more like that with him wow and I regret I was not as he is with his children because he's a bloody amazing dad and for him to say that and he was an amazing dad he was just different you know and and it was his way and back then that probably was the correct way of parenting I don't know but to see how he is with my boys now his face light up when I facetime him or when the boys go back and he's gonna take them down to the park you know my dad's like 80 year old man now but he's good for his age and he's still got lots of energy left and he's got a lot of love to give and the love he shows my boys I'm proud of him and I don't have any any resentment towards how he was to me as a child because you know I think he did he did and acted however he felt was the best way to act to get the best out of me and he got the best out of me 100 but I think it's so powerful hearing a parent say all the stuff you hope they feel because I think sometimes we assume that those feelings where we need to please our parents we want to do the best to sort of prove to them that we're we're thriving or we're succeeding whatever it is they live on and on they're not exclusive to childhood as you move into your adult years you can feel you're still driven by the same and even and I've spoken to so many people who have experienced this their parents have died but they still feel it They haven't got that pressure or that expectation with a parent who's alive and they're still feeling it.

59:27So I think to actually have some sort of peace, perhaps, in hearing the words that you've longed for. That's huge. It was massive. That's a huge moment. Honestly, it was unbelievable. Like, because in previous times, say, for example, I remember in 2014, I interviewed David Cameron on the one show, prime minister at the time. And my dad sent me a formal email. he calls me ski ski very good interview love that question and i knew because my mom told me all his mates were calling him up saying i saw him on the one show interview the prime but it's always been very formal with my dad but to hear him actually say those words at my birthday from the heart in front of everyone it was awesome yeah my dad's very much off like you know when i've been to visit them drive safe safe journey home when i'm like come here and i'll give him a hug and you know and it's just as i said it's just it's just his way it's just his way yeah but my parents have been brilliant parents to me and my brother I've been very very lucky so when when he said what I mean I know my mum loves me to bits right my mum don't have to say that I can see it because she's she's different to my dad but when my dad said that it just honestly it was like the endorphins in my breath everything just went it's all all right now and and I think I'm probably over loving to my boys because I want them to know that they are my absolute world sometimes people look at me I must kiss my boys 30 times a day.

1:00:49I can't put them down. I do this. I can't put them down. I don't care. Even in public, give me a smoochie. I do the same. I just love to be close to them and show them. I want them to know. I want them to know when they go to sleep at night, when they wake up in the morning, whatever they're doing, I just want them to feel that love. And I want them to know. And also, this is going to sound really morbid, but I really feel my age now in terms of that. I feel great, but I also am very self-aware that anything can happen at any time in life. My mortality, I'm aware of it because I've lost friends.

1:01:22Over the last four or five years, I've lost a couple of good friends at a young age. I just think you don't know what's around the corner. So I never want it. I don't live with any regret. I know if I was to go tomorrow, my boys know they're the dad who loved him more than any other dad in the world. It's been really lovely talking to you today about it. Is that already? We've done like an hour of this. My God, it's been so nice. It's gone really quick. But this is the thing, because I think when you're chewing this stuff over, this is big shit that we're talking about here. It's like free counselling for me, this is.

1:01:57Well, me too. This is why I do the job. I get to do it every week. It is, but I mean, it does whiz, because it's a brilliant subject to talk about. Honestly, it feels like I've been talking to you for 10 minutes. I know, I know. It's wild. But it's so brilliant. And I think from a male lens, we need to hear this more often. We need to hear about, and I like the fact that you're being completely honest today and saying, yeah, I'm not like fixed, sat here going, everything's sunny. We all are going to go through tough times and dark days and that is completely normal. We need to normalise that as much as possible.

1:02:27Let me just quickly tell you something quickly about sunny days and maybe a bit of self-loathing and self-doubt. I came here this morning and I genuinely thought your podcast is mega, right? And you're brilliant. You get some amazing people. I thought, you fucking put the wrong person. Did you think I was Greg Rutherford or something? No, genuinely, I doubted myself this morning. I was like, what am I going to wear? Is this too much? It's a great shirt. Yeah, but I had those doubts. We all have that, don't we? We do. So what I'm saying is, today is a great day. I'm going home absolutely buzzing because I've enjoyed speaking to you and I've loved being on here.

1:03:02But it's not saying tomorrow I might not wake up with a little bit of chink in my armory thinking, hmm, did yesterday happen? Did you come across all right? So what I'm saying, we all have days when it will bite you on the arse. But just remember, you get through it and you will get through it. And to any bloke listening or watching who feels they can't talk, my massive regret in life is not talking sooner because it's all right not to be all right. And we all know that now and it's a bit more accepted, but there still are blokes out there, the blokey blokes who think, oh, I can't talk to no one.

1:03:34I'm all right. I'm a geezer. No, if you're not all right, talk. yeah words of wisdom that we all need to hear thank you thank you for having me on and sorry if you thought i was greg rutherford i didn't think you were greg rutherford but that aside i think it's so important that we talk about strep b and also that we talk about male mental health so i massively appreciate you covering both those subjects because it will help people and it's brilliant thank you for letting me talk and thank you i've loved being here thank you oh Ewan thanks do you know what thanks for your amazing honesty and vulnerability I think it's going to help a lot of people out there and hopefully get more men chatting I know it might sound like a bit of a generalization to say that men might still need a bit of a helping hand when it comes to opening up and sharing their feelings but I think it's true it might not be every man out there but I think many still find it really tricky to open up to friends family members etc So I think if you're listening to that, well, first of all, if you're a woman listening to this and you think that your partner, brother, dad, uncle, cousin, whoever might really benefit from listening to that, do share this episode because I really think it could be very helpful.

1:04:43Brutal is the name of Ewan's memoir and it's out on the 4th of July. Someone else who talked really beautifully about fatherhood recently was Zane. Oh, that was such a heartwarming and wholesome chat about his daughter and about painting and chilling out in the countryside. And you can listen back to that one next if you haven't already. In the meantime, do you see yourself in Ewan's work ethic? I, not that I've like puked after working really hard on a podcast or book, but I do push myself to the point of absolutely exhaustion. so I definitely do. Did your character change when you became a parent?

1:05:21Let's chat about all these things on Instagram at happyplaceofficial during the week you'll find us there. Until next time a massive thanks again to Ewan to the producer Anushka Tate at Happy Place Studios and to you I love ya.

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