Jamie Laing on fatherhood, family, loneliness, and male body image

0:00Hello, I'm Fern Cotton and this is Happy Place, the show that gives you permission to be your absolute full self. Today, I'm chatting to Jamie Lang. It's hard for me to say, but I had an eating disorder, for sure. I went to a therapist, and when I told the therapist what was happening, I had to cover my eyes in sex. I was too embarrassed about it. But there were moments in my 20s where I wouldn't keep my food down because it was just a complete control thing. And it was a secret that I had. I find it pretty shameful. So I've had a right shit week um I'm not saying that for any sympathy at all I'm saying it because I know many of you listening will have had a shit week too and it's quite normal uh doesn't make it any better but we're all in this together but sometimes amongst the shit there are little glimmers still and I had one really lovely evening the week just gone I went to the Royal Geographical Society but you weren't expecting I was going to say that to watch my friend Arling Kager do a talk.

1:08Now Arling's actually been on Happy Place many moons ago. You'd have to scroll back in the archives to find that episode. But basically he's just this amazing Norwegian explorer who was the first person to reach the North Pole, the South Pole and Everest unaided. And it was so beautiful. A lot of it was around having a sense of adventure, etc. But one thing really, well two things really stayed with me. One I've already talked about on Instagram so you can go and have a look on my Instagram. The other thing that has stayed with me right at the end of the talk he said everybody needs to find their North Pole and what he meant by that was that that for him was this big goal and he was deeply curious about what it would be like to reach the summit and he had it in his sights and he was working towards it not with any expectation that it would fix all his problems or that he'd be a better person because of it but he had this goal in mind and he did it he accomplished it and I love that thought like have your own version of reaching the North Pole what is your North Pole what are you curious about what are you massively excited about intrigued about what challenge do you want to set yourself I don't have the answer to my own even yet but it's something that I'm really enjoying thinking about I love that um so should we talk about the wonderful Jamie Lang oh I love Jamie now I'm good mates with Jamie and I can tell you now he is one of the most hilarious he's honestly one of the funniest people I've I know whenever I go out for dinner with him I cry you know when you're laughing and no noise comes out, that sort of laughter.

2:50He's so lovely, he's so funny, he's so generous, he's so kind, he's just a bloody good egg. Of course most of you will know him from Made in Chelsea but he's gone on to have a brilliant broadcasting career, podcasting career, he's got his company Candy Kittens which is absolutely thriving and he's written a brilliant book, Boys Don't Cry, which I really loved reading. It's all about Jamie unpicking how to be the kind of man he's proud of instead of the one society expects him to be and other men. We chat about all sorts in this chat. It's a real deep dive. We talk about his excitement and fear around becoming a dad imminently.

3:29He's about to have a baby any minute. So that was a really wonderful and very honest conversation to have on both parts from me and him. We talk about his changing relationship with his dad, which is really powerful, actually. That was a really powerful bit. And we talk about body image and eating disorders for men, something we've never talked about on Happy Place before. We've covered eating disorders to some degree, but not from a male perspective. And this is interesting because Jamie, in this chat you'll hear, is currently feeling about as to how comfy he is talking about this for the first time and it's early days for him and you know I went through a similar thing and again you'll hear this in the chat I used to feel deeply uncomfortable talking about having had an eating disorder so I'm hoping that I guided Jamie through this in the best possible way because I totally get it but my god he is very honest and shows vulnerability and is a great storyteller so I know you're going to love this one

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7:52You ready for this? So, yeah, come on then. Shall we do it?

7:59Jamie Lang, how have you not been on Happy Place before? I don't know. I'm excited. I'm nervous. You've got a big book in front of you. Yeah, I'm a professional. I do like notes. So there's notes in that book? There's notes on every person I've interviewed. But I've got like 10, 15 of these at home. No, you don't. So I look back on them one day and go, look at all these cool people that I've interviewed. Okay, but just tell me just quickly, why do you write? because there are such things as the modern day have tablets, right? No, I don't like that. You don't like that? No, pen and paper because also the process of writing it ingrains it into my mind so I remember the flow of it.

8:34Not that I'm going to stick to that but my brain will go, oh, remember you wrote this thing and it will jump to that. That's how I work. That's how you process it? Yeah. Okay, tell me, who's been your best guest ever? Can I just remind you that I'm interviewing you today? I know but I just really want to know. I'm just going to put that out there. I really want to know. Do you know what? I've had lots of brilliant people. I'd say Dawn French, always a fave. Come on. Patrick Gagne, who's a sociopath, who was fascinating. That's amazing. To chat to. Hillary Clinton, shit myself, never been so scared.

9:02Bjorn Nathicoe, Lindblad, who is this amazing monk. I mean, just so many great people. Okay. I've asked you this, but I want, who would you love to interview? Let's put it out there so then they may watch this. Who have we not had on that's on my, oh, Reese Witherspoon. And I would like her on her own and I want to talk like, business chat with her. Hello, sunshine. How have you done it? How have you done it? She's so incredible. So I would love her. Could you, you should message her. What, DM Reese Witherspoon? You should DM, do you not, do you not DM people? I mean, here and there, but not Reese Witherspoon.

9:36It would be lost, surely, in millions of, I think if Fern Cotton, she doesn't know who I am. She will do. No. Yes. Jamie, don't be insane. I promise you, she'll know exactly who you are. No. No, she will not. Reese Witherspoon will. Of course she won't. I'm just a random human in London. No, I mean, I'll do it as an experiment, see if she DMs back. How about that? I think you should do that. So you don't DM your guests? No, no, no. You don't do that? That's what I do. I mean, I did it at the start. I asked, I texted Dawn French and went, will you come on the podcast? And she said, what's a podcast?

10:14And then I went to her house. But then I kind of stopped doing that after about three series. And now I'm much more professional. I DM people. Like who? Who have you DMed? Oh my God. Like every, so many different people and then what happens is is that to get them on my podcast I DM them and lots of times they don't reply because they have better things to do, right? And then I end up like meeting them and they know I've DMed them and I know I've DMed them and I still act like nonchalant. I'm like, hey, hey, how are you? I love your stuff, man. And they're just like, this is a freak. There is like, there's one singer in particular who I've really been trying to get on for a long time.

10:54I don't know. I'm not going to say it because honestly, I think she has like in her head, but like a restraining order. Rita Ora. No, it's not Rita Ora. But I've been trying to get her on. She's quite a young up and coming singer. She's amazing. No, but I did try and get her as well. It's a serial DM. It's a serial. Slipping into DMs left, right and centre. And she didn't reply. And I did it quite a few days. She didn't reply. and then she was meant to come on the Radio 1 show to do a promotion and then she decided not to do that because I think it was being too awkward for her. So she went on a different show on Radio 1.

11:28So I might stop DMing people. This might be a sign. Now we've processed it in this kind of deep therapy session. Yeah, I'm not going to do it. I'm not going to do it. I think maybe. I'm just going to stop doing it. I don't think it's a good thing to DM people. They don't really want to see that. And in my head I'm thinking, well, they'll reply. Yeah. Of course they'll reply. They all know who I am. Let's go. They freaking know who I am. Send them a pack of candy kittens. We're done. You want some sweets? Come on. I mean, I didn't even text you to ask you on here. This was done in a professional capacity.

11:55Oh, yeah, yeah. My people talking to your people, et cetera. But mainly because you've got a book out. Oh, straight in. Straight in. You're going to be like psychoanalyzing my interviewing. But I text you last week because I was reading your book at home. And so much of it, well, first of all, so much of it is so helpful. And I'll get to those parts in a moment. But also, I learned a hell of a lot about you. And, you know, we hang out. I know you but there was stuff that I really didn't know about you and again we'll cover as much of it as we can and you can ask me anything I know you're very very open as am I so we can this can be like a two way chat because we've got a lot in common actually in ways that you may know you may not know but this is a really interesting time in your life because you are about to become a dad for the first time and you've written this book for your future child slash children to help them through life and to guide them How are you feeling about embarking on the fatherhood journey?

12:53Like, I'm so excited, but really nervous because it's like a scary thing. Like fatherhood is like a really scary thing. Like parenthood in general is just a really scary thing. And for so long, I didn't know if I wanted to become a parent. I didn't know if I wanted to be a dad. I kind of liked waking up in the morning and just thinking about going to the gym or walking to work or like whatever. Yeah, that's gone. That's gone. Totally gone. Like that. Like in one second, right? Gone, in a day. Gone, totally gone. And so I was like really excited about those. That's how it went my life was, so I quite liked it.

13:24And then Sophie is very maternal. She always wanted kids. So I knew this conversation was going to come up at some point with her. And when it started, I was like nervous about it because just of just lots of reasons. I was just nervous about all the things that people think. And to the point where I thought at one point I was going to say to her, I don't know if I want to go down this road because there are so many variables. What happens if I'm not a good dad? What happens if my baby is not okay? What happens if something happens to them that I can't control? What happens if Soph and I divorce?

13:59What happens if we have a problem? I fall. All these variables I was so worried about. So in my head, I go, well, instead of having a problem thinking about all those things, I don't have to do it. And in my head, I was going, okay, to have a kid, to become a parent, I have so many notes to not be a parent. I have no notes. I can just continue. And I've said this before, but I had a conversation with, um, firstly, I sat next to someone at a dinner party and they said this amazing thing to me. They said, I said, do you have kids? And she said, yes. I said, do you love it? Like you do in conversations at dinner.

14:33And she said, no, I don't. And I went, huh? She went, I find it really hard. Impossibly hard. I'm a single mom. I found it really hard, but I love my baby more than anything and for me I wanted to experience every corner of the earth and in order to do that I feel like I have to have kids and that kind of struck a chord with me and that may be true to some people may not be true to some people Also hats off because I love that she had that honest answer because I think people are very nervous to say I find parenting incredibly difficult or actually a lot of it is unenjoyable or mundane and all these things can be true alongside the fact that you love your kid more than anything.

15:11You would do anything for your kid. Totally. But people are waiting for some horrible feedback from that honesty of like, well, you're lucky to have kids, whatever. Yeah, like two things can be true. I'm really lucky to have kids, but it's fucking hard, you know. And I love that she was so honest. She was really honest. And that was kind of an amazing moment. And then I spoke to my dad and I had a big conversation with him. And my dad and I have become really close over like, especially over the recent years. He's just the best. And I said to him, you know, dad, what do you think about having kids?

15:37and he paused and he said, well, if I hadn't had kids, I wouldn't be having this conversation. And I kind of thought, I thought, okay, when I get to 90 years old, right, hopefully, and I'm in my rocking chair and maybe I'm in a rocking chair on a porch. That's a cliche. Yeah, I'm in a rocking chair, obviously, that I'm in a rocking chair or an ice bath. And Sophie's there and we're like hanging out or whatever. I kind of want to look, you don't want to look back at life and think, I wish I'd done that. No. You don't. And I remember I heard a podcast with Stephen Fry. And he was asked, is there anything he regrets in life?

16:11And he said, well, we had a conversation about having kids once and we didn't do it. And sometimes I think, wouldn't it be nice to have done that? And so part of me doesn't want to go to the end of my life and go, kind of maybe would it be nice to do that. I don't know if we'd regret it or not, but kind of just want to really, I want to ride that roller coaster as much as I can. Yeah. And, you know, I think it's really sensible that you're approaching it with such caution because many people don't, I don't think I did. I think I just dived into it. I mean, I find parenting, it's the most beautiful, exceptional experience.

16:41And it is so hard. It's so hard. There's no getting around it. There's no parent out there that could sit there and honestly say, parenting is so easy. Piece of cake. Like, just breeze through every day. Because they're kids. And obviously, you're dealing with different emotional issues going on or practical issues going on. Certainly when they're little, it's just an onslaught of practical, quite mundane things that you're in a cycle of. and that doesn't last forever. Everything's a phase, but it's incredibly hard, but so fulfilling and beautiful and it's so hard to put to words. It's kind of everything, but I think rollercoaster is right.

17:22But you also, you're just, I'm a bit of a downer. But you also, you're a bit more like, we overthink things, right? Occasionally. Oh my God. So how do you stop overthinking about your kids? I mean, I don't. I don't. I really, really don't. And I think, you know, my son is turning 13 in the new year. So that's this, you know, new phase of, you know, him being a little independent guy. He's going to want to go out on his own. I've got to start letting go a bit. And even now he's like at the school gates. Don't talk to me. Don't kiss me. Just don't hug me. Just walk away. And I'm like, OK, bye. Have a great day.

17:53You know, we're at that point, whereas my daughter is still hugging me and loving me. But it's that pushback. We all did it to our parents. And this is what I text you about. I loved that you, you know, I do worry about my kids like every parent does, especially they've had a lot of change this year. And you talk about your parents getting a divorce and how that impacted you as a kid and how that might be informing some of your worrying and your anxiety around parenthood. But like you say, you've now got this amazing relationship with your dad and you didn't back then. No, I didn't back then. And because my parents got divorced when I was like eight years old.

18:34And I have two older sisters, Tash and Jemps. They're amazing, right? And they already came from my dad's first marriage. So I kind of was aware of like this thing which was divorce. Yeah. I was aware of it, right? And as a kid, that was like quite a scary thing because you just want your parents to be together the whole time. And so my big fear in life was the fact that my parents were going to get divorced. I always just say, are you going to get divorced? Are you going to get divorced? and I don't know why that was funny, but I remember saying that the whole time. And so when my parents did get divorced, it was like, well, of course this was going to happen.

19:07It was like everything that I had feared was going to happen and then suddenly come true, which was really upsetting, but I buried it like big time. And of course, then what happens is that you go through life like thinking one side is more right than the other or the other side is more right than the other. And actually what you realize is firstly, I think when people get divorced, firstly it's a really brave thing I think it's like insanely brave because a lot of people don't and they stay very unhappy and they stay in their relationship because they think it's good for the kids or they think it's good for whatever or they don't want to feel embarrassed or ashamed or whatever these things that they feel but actually you kind of get one life and you've got to live it to the max and you've got to be careful about who along the way is getting upset but also you if you're unhappy in a situation you're going to create a circle of unhappiness around you and I actually at the end of the day would sort of applaud my dad for saying it just hadn't it wasn't going to work out and now looking back my mom remarried she's happier than ever right in this amazing relationship my stepfather who's incredible my stepfather has been chairman of my candy kittens business he's one of my biggest mentors in life so great the most amazing guy so So he has taught me everything I need to know about business.

20:23Literally everything I need to know. So if that divorce had never happened, I would never have met him. He'd never been part of my life. Maybe I never would have started a business. Maybe I wouldn't be an entrepreneur. Who knows? And then my dad remarried someone called Katia, who is the most creative, just the most amazing person. They had a little boy called George, who's my little brother. He's one of my best friends in the world. Oh, it's so gorgeous. And so out of that kind of chaos and out of that upset, brilliance happens. And my dad and I have the most amazing, he's the best guy in the world.

20:49And what age do you think you started to have this broader, I guess, more adult perspective? Because obviously, when you're a kid, like you say, you just want everything to be as it was. But when you get to adulthood, maybe you start seeing people as humans rather than parents. I certainly have that realisation. Yeah, I think it was in my 20s, I started to realise it. I think like teens, you're just like floating around, whatever, you're not really thinking about things. And then I think you start to become aware. it's like you eat the apple and you suddenly become aware of stuff i suddenly became aware of like feelings and emotions and like consciousness and like being awkward and all these different things and probably my 20s i suddenly was like oh hang on a second like i started to realize that perhaps i hadn't been as friendly to like maybe my parents or like to my dad in particular but i was stubborn so i didn't really admit it i just and i in my 20s i did a couple of things that i just wasn't proud of like i i spoke ill of my parents in like an article once with my dad I spoke badly of him and and he you know he sent me a letter and he wrote me a letter and he he had the article and I and you know imagine that imagine your parents and he's saying you've done an article about you and my dad by the way he never ever spoke ill of my mum ever he never said anything bad against her ever I've never heard him say anything ever in his entire life right and my mum not really either but my mum more is very dominant and oh god and you know I had to be the single mum and bring you guys you know all these sorts of things which is totally fair because she was hurting but my dad um he just he sent me an article it was the article i did it had done and he had just written on the article he said i'm so sorry i'm such a disappointment wow yeah i've actually never told anyone that anything and he and he wrote that on it and it was just on the thing and i just thought i just thought man i'm you know that's my dad do you think he wrote it meaning sorry or he wanted to call you out on it i think he wanted to say that he was sorry my dad's like he's very he can't he finds it hard to be emotional he really can't go there for whatever reason maybe his childhood whatever he can't go there but um it was him basically probably to say I'm sorry but also to say I think he was hurt and so it was a bit like I think it was him saying you don't know this you never know the true sides of both you don't know both sides you don't know the true story so if you just to say things it's really hurtful and I'm sorry that you have that I represent all these things that you said and that catalyzed a conversation and then we didn't talk we didn't we still didn't talk for ages and the reason we spoke for I'm not kidding the reason we said is Amal Rajan came on my podcast this is no we became we were much closer and things like that but the first time we had a proper conversation is Amal Rajan came on my podcast and he was dealing with grief where he was he his dad passed away and he was talking about grief and he was saying how tough it is and he turned to me and he said um what would what would you say if your dad came up to you and said he had three weeks to live and i was like i got really like taken aback by it because i wasn't expecting him to say that and i was like oh my god um and i couldn't get my words out and i started getting you know to the point where you actually get too emotional i was a bit like oh my god i was like oh god this is actually not professional anymore like i was almost like oh no it's like drawing and he said look okay hold on do you know what you have you have this gift it's time you have this gift of time where you can talk to your dad about things i thought that's amazing and so i you know i just said sent my dad a message and just said you're the greatest dad ever i know you know that over the recent years but you really are you're the best thing ever and i think that's like a real thing in life I think it's really important to try and heal wounds and there's a German saying which is never leave sand in the machine which is make sure this life this machine which is life make sure you get rid of the sand because it only really hurts the machine which is you so you kind of got to try and clear all that as much as you can yeah I agree it's not fun to be lugging around resentments or regrets or bad feelings towards another person if you can fix it They're still together now.

24:59Yeah, they're still together now, which I think has probably informed a lot of my feelings around divorce personally. And, you know, how that is affecting my kids. And that's why it was so comforting to read your adult perspective coming from a family that was actually already blended by the time you were born, which, you know, my kids have got older step siblings, which is a beautiful relationship. they've got and I'm so glad of it but it was very comforting to sort of see if you fast forward you know what can happen it's okay and I want to tell you and I really want to tell you that like I promise you because you are I know like the surface of you I don't know the deeper deeper you but I think I'm quite I'm like what is that you got on the earth you got the crust and then you got the membrane I don't know what you got and it's whatever the layers are but I think I'm a little bit in right Yeah, yeah, yeah.

25:54For sure. You're such a wonderful person. Truly you are. And if as a friend you feel that, I can't imagine what you feel as a son or a daughter. Yeah, I mean, look, we all try our best, don't we? We have good days, we have bad days. I think the one thing that I stick to is if I am having a ratty morning where I know it's going to be a busy day and I'm rushing on the school run and Rex has left his, you know, organiser at home and we're halfway to school or whatever and I'm a bit cross, I will always apologise. So if I mess up, I will always say, do you know what? I'm really sorry that I was ratty in the car.

26:34I've got a lot on. And I'll just be really honest with them about why I'm ratty. You know, I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed. I'm racing from place to place. And actually what I've seen, the return is, if like say Rex is that pre-teenage now, he'll get ratty with me and go, oh, don't go away. Like, leave me alone. I don't want you to be near me. and he will always apologise by the end of the day, every time. And so I'm not perfect, I mess up constantly, but I think because I'm showing them that you can mess up, but you should always say sorry. Totally. Hopefully, I mean, you don't know how your decisions are going to impact your children, but you can just do your best, that's all you can do.

27:14Have you spoken about your separation? No, not really. And I wouldn't want to go too into it yet. I don't suppose I think you know it's not like it's a secret it's been the bloody papers because everything is in the papers so you can't avoid it so people know but I think I really want to respect everybody else in this situation as much as I can but I think it's you know it'd be unusual for me not to be worried about my children in the situation I think there's many other parents who feel the same and worry about it might not even be separation it might be moving location from where you live to another place, another country, and all these things that we know impact children.

27:57But actually seeing resilience that's built or the storytelling you've got in your book down the line, it's really bloody helpful. And also, I think parents just constantly think that they're messing their kids up the whole time. You just think you're doing things wrong. Our generation, the first generation, I think, to really go, oh, we know this stuff. Psychology authors keep telling us. Our parents are just like, oh, well, let's hope for the best and crack on with it. I think our generation are driving ourselves mad. We're like overthinking every word we say, everything we do. Which is almost too far.

28:31Too far. We need to swing back a little bit. The pendulum needs to come back a bit. It needs to go a bit more centered. When I said to my mum that I've written this book, she was like, but why do you just not talk about things like that? And I was like, fair enough. That's so good. Yeah.

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31:15Sign up for Greenlight Infinity at greenlight.com slash podcast.

31:46Oh my god, I felt like that That's got to be a driving force Also, and I wonder if you feel like this Purely about the book, you want to Set yourself the challenge of, can I do this? Can I get these feelings Put down on a page? Can I make sense of them? And then a bit of it, I don't fucking know Why am I doing this? You've nailed it Why am I doing this? You've nailed it I think one is that driving force is like, yeah, hopefully this will help people Which is a really great feeling that you have But it's not 100 % the story. No. No, no, no. And anyone who says, I have done this because I just...

32:20Fuck off. Yeah, come on. Let's just be honest. It's not just because of that. No. It's not just because of that. It can't be. It can't be. The only thing is, it's like challenging yourself is really important. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you've got to like... And everyone always says, oh, I take risks. But it's like, do you take risks? Like, do we really... Do you really take a risk? And writing a book and putting your stuff out there is actually generally taking a risk. So risky. Or you're shitting yourself. like I shit myself every time I release a book it's just like it's so scary yeah it's really actually quite scary and you're right and the third bit is like okay but why then I don't really know why do we do any of this why are we talking about this stuff publicly on microphones why are we writing books I wonder because I think it gives us a purpose and I think it gives us a reason I think in life like my brother my little brother George who I spoke with sent me a message this morning and he was asking for advice and he said I'm thinking about what I want to do in life and it seems like you're doing some really amazing things as my older brother can you just give me some advice because my mom my stepmother said that she wanted to do a lot of things and she ended up doing nothing really and he doesn't want he wants to make sure that he focuses and I said to him yeah that's a really good point is that if you start to do lots of different things you probably end up doing nothing and he said well you do a lot of things and I sort of went I do but I think mainly what we do is we like entertaining.

33:39Yeah. And whether that's entertaining on audio or it's entertaining on visuals or entertaining in a book or connecting, we like entertaining connecting. Yeah. And so ways that we can connect or entertain and if we can do that both, man, that's like the greatest combination. But how much of that is dependent on the outside validation because that's the bit that I have to really weigh up is like I posted something on Instagram this morning that I felt like I wanted to say and I'm not even sure why but I was like these are some lessons I've learned this week and they feel like they've impacted me greatly and I would like to share them but then I have to after I posted the video watch that I'm not going oh I wonder if blah blah has put a comment there I wonder what people are saying about this and I have to stop at don't look for the validation bit or if you're looking just know that it's almost meaningless you don't have to have that feedback do you consider because obviously man it's hard even being on made in chelsea you know you're and you write about this in the book the reality of being on a reality show is so different to what we could imagine or maybe we've got a loose idea but for you it was this heightened sense of insecurity yeah hyper focus and awareness on things you didn't even feel were flaws before you were on the tv and then also looking for outside validation.

35:01It's a huge part of it. Oh, it's everything. You know, so I did, I started Made in Chelsea when I was like 22 years old and I didn't really, like, it was, because when you don't really understand what you're feeling or your emotions, but I was like a confident young kid, but also I was like deeply insecure, like we all are, but you don't really know, you don't notice that you're insecure. and I not like all of us are but I would definitely was and I thought made in Chelsea at school I wanted to be popular right that's what I wanted to be because I thought if I was popular then that gives you like all the credibility and all the validation you need and so I thought if I joined a television show about then I would be the most popular right that's what I thought so I was like this is gonna be the best I'm gonna become famous kidding me that's like the most exciting thing out i'm gonna be famous and the problem was is that you then go and do a reality show which is really exciting and m and made in chelsea was freaking fun and whether you like the show or didn't like the show i mean firstly it's a tv show of being posh which is like the worst idea in the world it's like oh it's the best idea it's it's like honestly but i was like going into it was one of these things where i was like i thought it was going to cure lots of stuff all the problems they had but actually as you said it heightened everything and the moment of i had two real big moments of realization is i went on the show and it was great fun and we got to travel the world and we got paid to do it with our mates and whatever and then i think i write about this in in the book i think it was i we won a bafta and we got up on stage in front of like all these incredible actors and actresses and talented people and we would i was like screaming like yeah i can't believe it yeah we've just done it and i go on stage and i was like oh my god and that feeling was just amazing i looked into the audience i saw like idris elba and bened combatch and olivia coleman and all these incredible people who have trained their entire lives to get where they are and they were looking back at us just like were they 100 100 you could feel the room i'm quite aware of that you could feel the room and i suddenly again like eating the apple i suddenly went oh we're not cool and i was like we're not what we think we are in our little bubble of reality TV we think we are but we're not and suddenly I had this realization I was like oh my god all the things that I thought I was going to get but actually we're slightly being laughed at here and that was a big moment for me and also I then secondly realized that I'd taken a shortcut into this amazing industry of entertainment and I knew then it was going to be this long way around and we always look for a shortcut in life and actually it's the worst thing to do because as soon as you take a shortcut you have to take the long road at some point.

37:39And so for me, that was a big learning curve, I think. Yeah, but I, there's lots to say about that. I think you're doing yourself a discredit because I think there's room for all of it. I think there's room for like high-end classy drama with the best, you know, royal Shakespearean actors. And I think there's loads of space for reality shows where we can sit and just go, oh my God, and zone out. Yeah, but that's for you. Yeah. For you, that's great. But for the person on the show, you're thinking, no, I'm like a, I'm an entertainer and I'm this and that and everyone on the other side of the TV watcher are going that's just a fucking idiot I don't think so I think a lot of people are like we like the relatability we like that we can see ourselves in these people you're being so sweet no I'm not I honestly believe it I think there's room for all of it I really do but before you met me before you knew me and before things you probably had a preconception of what I was like right I've always thought you were ace and do you know one of the reasons is Lynn Cotton my mum you've not met my mum yet I've not met your mum She fucking loves you.

38:38Get out of here. And let me tell you, Lynn hates everyone. Lynn doesn't like anyone. She'll find a problem with anyone on TV. Let's freaking go, Lynn. Oh, I don't like her. She fucking loves you. She wants to meet you. Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Lynn, I freaking love you. So I was just already on board with the whole Jamie Lang thing. Okay. Already, before we became friends. And then it just further confirmed that you are a very decent egg. And not only that, and like you say, you have to do the long road at some point. Got to do the long road. But you've done it. And you've put the work in not only in terms of your credentials in entertainment, but also business-wise.

39:11You know, that you can't cheat on that one because the results will be visible. And, you know, that's a whole other domain. But Made in Chelsea, like, and you, I'm sure you, you're going to interview, I know you'll interview or will interview some like Made in Chelsea people. I've got Spenny coming on. You've got Spenny coming on. Okay, great. I guarantee this, Spenny will hate talking about it. He'll hate it. Made in Chelsea. You won't want to talk about it. You've got to own it. Fucking damn shit. Like, I've got to own Disney Club when I was 15. I can't be like, I didn't do kids TV. Fern, that's way cooler.

39:40Of course I did. That is way cooler. Is it? Yes. I don't know. Yes, it's way cooler. I don't think it is. Mane and Chelsea's a TV show. I was like this. Bunches. Hi, welcome to the Disney Club. Do you want to watch Rugrats? Literally the biggest nerd ever. Like, awful. Okay, Mane and Chelsea's a TV show being posh. We don't work and live off our parents' money. what a brilliant idea that is yeah i'll do that yeah i'll do that and then and then when i finish i do my first ever like show we watch it it goes up live and i'm like well we watch it on the team we're like well now i'm famous we've made it you've made it and i walk outside and like the first comment goes get a real job i'm like what the fuck is this but so it's so great but you've got to own it and i like and like again i say the same thing harry styles when he won the grammy he got up on stage yes he mentioned one d he mentioned one direction x factor x factor like own it i know and it's like that's my roots that's how you got there 100 % how cool is it do you know what's so interesting is if we if we go back to talking about the validation aspect of it and like you say you walk out the house like you feel like you've made it you're hoping that fame's gonna make you popular yeah we only want to be popular because we're i believe lacking self-compassion and we conflate the two we think popularity means we're gonna like ourselves and often it can be the greatest distraction from actually doing the work to try and cultivate some self-acceptance to go this is who i am and i'm flawed and i'm brilliant and everything in between do you think you're at a place now where you like yourself oh yeah Yeah, 100%.

41:22Dude, like a million, million percent. And I think it was probably because I, when I was younger, you know, big family, middle child, always wanted attention, always wanted love, quite sensitive, parents get divorced, sent off to boarding school, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. And poor me, right, whatever. No, but boarding school's harsh. Yeah, but still, but like, but whatever, that was my, like in their situations, and I do try and caveat it with this because there are situations which are so much worse, but my experience was like that, right? And it was like a tough experience for me at the time. And at school, I was like, I was quite like a, almost like a young achiever.

42:04Like in sports days, I was always winning like medals and I was captain of the football teams. And so you were quite applauded when I was a young kid. Yeah. And because I, and I was like, oh, I quite like that. I score a goal and people cheer. That's, I quite like that. That's quite a good thing. I wasn't good at work so then when 17 hit and I then couldn't play sport because I had an injury that was taken away from me so all those praises and all that like Jamie well done come on Jamie all those kind of things that just went silent yeah and so I then needed to fill that with something and I was like well where do I go get those cheers from because I'd almost become addicted to that cheer which is like a really negative thing to get yeah and now that's why with sportsmen, with, it's a bit of a sportsman, right?

42:48Like, I was chatting to a Lioness recently, and she said, I don't, when I score a goal, that feeling of scoring a goal, I don't know what I'm going to do afterwards when I can't get that feeling. And I had a small level of it, right? So I went searching for that validation other places. And when Maine and Chelsea came, that was like, that's it. I get the praise from there. And it just wasn't the same because I would, it just, yeah, it wasn't the same. No, and I don't think, even if you're, Beyonce on stage I don't know if that is any more meaningful than someone going I like you I made in Chelsea I really don't I think unless you can have a bedrock of self-compassion it doesn't touch the sides 1 ,000 people watching you becomes I want 10 ,000 becomes I want 100 ,000 people in a stadium and it's never enough unless you like yourself that's it and now I'm in a place where definitely I really like myself and I think that comes from my relationship with Sophie, my wife.

43:44I love your wife. Oh man, and she adores you. I love your wife so much. I mean, I've always loved your podcast together, but when I met her, we met at Buckingham Palace, which is the wankiest thing I'll ever say. But I'd never met your wife before, and within four seconds I was like, I'm in love with her. You're similar. I just fucking love her. You're both like alpha, and you're both opinionated in a good way, and you're both a little bit like cats. I remember the first time or maybe the second time we had dinner together and I'm not good if I know I'm either done or I've got an early start unbelievable I get up and go you can believe it fun it's honestly okay let me set the scene for your listeners so we're having like a lovely dinner like I'm like I'm like one of those people who is like you know if someone on the opposite table is struggling with their chair like I'm just so worried about like people and things like that we're having this lovely dinner I think I've had like an espresso martini I'm like I'm just this is freaking great like I'm like should we get some shots it's me, you, Elizabeth there we're having a great time I like I had the last bite of like my dessert I'm like that was good and you're like up and I'm like huh and you're like right guys I'm off and I was like first in my head I had so much respect for you I had so much respect the fact that you could suddenly just be like well I'm done now yeah I'm out I'm done and I was like I wish I had that confidence and then just be like yeah I'm just out and Elizabeth and I looked at each other and Elizabeth went I wish I had that I wish I had that when I'm done especially at night I'm done I've got to get out you've just got to go and it's like if that's such an inner confidence my wife has that two things can be true I love you and Elizabeth but I also want to be at home yeah with that great inner confidence and I'm going yeah but back to your wife yeah she is fucking great and you can tell throughout this book there's a specific moment where you're really struggling in lockdown yeah and all the work stopped aka no distractions you're left with your thoughts you're sat in it going oh my god and Sophie's actually your lifeline in that moment man she is like so yeah so I think I think I was always like looking for like that dopamine hit so at school it was like scoring tries or scoring goals or whatever it was then it was made in Chelsea that dopamine hit the whole time and then it was like that wasn't enough so it was like dating people or drinking too much so it's always like chasing this dopamine and then I met Sophie and I thought that relationships should be like chaotic and if it wasn't filled with drama, then it wasn't exciting.

46:14And actually, Sophie and I had that real sort of fire and real passion towards each other, but it was also calm and that was confusing to me. And in lockdown, we got told something once, like we got told by a psychic, right? I mean, whether or not you believe in psychics, but I kind of quite like it. Yeah, I'm here for it. Yeah, I'm in. Let's go. I'm in. Let's go. I frigging like it. Yeah. I frigging love it, actually. I freaking love it and the psychic said that we're twin flames and I was like what's that so I googled these things called twin flames and basically twin flames mirror each other so it's not even mirroring each other sorry that's the wrong thing it's more like the twin flame is where the mirror is put on yourself so you see your true self and in relationships in life we try to mask ourselves the whole time yeah like that's what we do right because we don't really want to front up to who we truly are because we then see what our flaws are and we have to make changes a lot of the time and that's boring it's boring I don't want to do that I just want to continue what I'm doing and not make changes.

47:06Sophie made me, good or bad, she made me realise who I actually was. And she made me hold the mirror up to myself and understand who I actually was. And that was quite tough, because it made me realise what I was lacking, what I wasn't good at, the mistakes I made, all these different things. And when lockdown hit, and I didn't have the distractions I normally did in life, I had what I can only describe as like real burnout. And it was where I just lost the joy for anything. And I don't think it was depression, because the way someone has described depression to me is just emptiness. And it's almost trying to think about space.

47:47They're just like, it's just complete emptiness. And it wasn't that. It was more I just lost complete joy for anything. And going from such an optimistic person, such a lover of life to not really enjoying things and not really having any joy anywhere. It was really tough. And I had just started my new relationship with Sophie and we're in lockdown living together and that's not fun like you know you're in lockdown and the person who you just started going out with is being miserable and she was 24 and she wants to go and have fun and probably meet see her friends and get drunk and do all the things the 24 year old wants to do and I was 30 and I remember saying to her I remember saying um when you met me the walls were pink and at the moment they're dark but I promise you I'll paint them back pink again.

48:30I promise you I will. I promise you, Sophie, I will. And forever, she just stuck by my side and she kept saying to me, even if you don't think tomorrow is going to be a good day, and I know you don't, just trick yourself. Tomorrow is going to be a good day. Just do that. Think it will be a good day. And she's just been amazing. And the reason why I'm much happier, the reason I'm much more fulfilled in myself is because of the relationship. without a doubt because I've now worked out who I truly am I held the mirror up to myself and realised actually what my flaws were and realised that being still is a good thing you don't need to be chaotic all the time it's hard though isn't it I'm not good at it no it's terrible it's the hardest thing I'm really not good I don't know how to do chilling out yeah but I know it's the hardest but sometimes I mean I say that but being still is important but also it comes with ups and downs like Sophie and I you know we have like tough times and we can argue and we can hate each other and we can be mean to each other and it's not roses at all but we have this sort of like really i hope we have this really amazing bond with each other and someone told me once that it's the 10 000 hour rule you know if you do 10 000 hours at something you become an expert or supposedly right with Sophie or in your relationship you've got to think can I spend 10 ,000 hours, 10 ,000 dates, 10 ,000 dinners with this person.

49:58If you can in a good spot. I could spend 100 ,000 with Sophie. Just because man yeah and I'm not, she's just the best. She's so great. She's freaking the best man. And she's hot. Oh my god she is, some of her pictures on Instagram are like, she's like AI. She's so dreamy. And people look at me and they're just like how have you done that and I don't know I don't know how I've done that but she's just like hot even when she's like pregnant oh even hotter like she was well she hate me saying this but she's like she's pregnant and she was like trying to I think she was trying to like shave oh yeah impossible and I caught her like doing it in this like sort of like gremlin pose and I was just like still hot still hot still hot still looking hot she's just she can't be unhot it's an impossibility she's amazing

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52:56In my eyes, it's bulimia. I had bulimia for 10 years. I was incredibly uncomfortable saying the word, talking about it. The only reason I started publicly talking about it was because of our dear friend Elizabeth Day. And I went on her podcast and I spoke to her before off mic and said, I think I want one of my failures to be based around looking after myself and this thing I used to do. And I found it so hard to say the word bulimia. I felt ashamed, slightly fraudulent saying it like I'd made it up, although it ruled a lot of my life for like nearly a decade. but knowing and trusting Elizabeth like I do I thought this is a really good way of me practicing talking about it and it is a horrible secret illness you're doing it all in in secret people won't know because you look the same often you know especially if you're binging and then purging you don't really look any different and you know I used to carry gum with me and spray perfume and I had all the little tricks going on so nobody would find out so when you break that secrecy and you either tell someone or someone says, were you being sick?

54:10It's so unnerving. I now, through a lot of therapy as well, feel really comfortable talking about it. And also I know that so many people out there are living with this secret unhappily. So I do know that talking about it will be helpful. Where are you at with discussing it? Yeah, so it's a big one, right? So the reason I, so when I wrote my book, right, boys don't cry. I wanted to make it like chapters, right? So A was for anxiety, B was for best friend, L is for loneliness, you know, S is for Sophie. And so because I'm dyslexic, I wanted to make sure that you could just turn to a chapter and just read it.

54:49And it was my experience with what I think is a way to help through it. And I really think that's important in life. And that's why I wrote it for my future kid, because I want my baby to understand that they can talk about things, right and it came to the chapter w and but i i've never i've never spoken of this and still as i start to talk about this i feel like shame right i get it um it came to the the chapter w and i promised myself that i'd be honest in the book and so i thought right i'll talk about weight so w is for weight and i i don't think men talk about issues that they have with their weight or their body or the way they look or their hairline or all these things we just don't and I thought it was important to do it and so my story with it is I played a lot of sport I was very sporty always quite lean always looking you know everyone always used to say what a six-pack Jamie has all these things and I used to eat a lot of food because I was trying to put on weight for rugby because I was a keen rugby player a really good rugby player and when I had my knee injury and my sport was taken away from me I must have gone into some sort of like anxiety without realizing it and I got comfort in eating and it was back when you didn't really have camera phones at all and so we had I had like a disposable camera I went on holiday and I was taking photos my mum would say to me you look a bit stocky like you look a bit stocky like you're eating a lot and you look a bit stocky and it was from a place of love.

56:27I went, oh, whatever, you know, I didn't even think of it, oh, no, whatever. And I went on holiday, took some photos, got them developed, and I remember going to like a Snappy Snap, which used to be a place you get developed, and I was going through them, and I came across a picture of me topless on the beach, and I did, I looked stocky. I didn't look lean, I didn't look like as six-packy as I usually was, and immediately I just felt shame. And so that day, something clicked in my brain, I must have been 18, 19, and probably because of the anxiety of the sport and all those things, I couldn't play sport anymore, which was like a thing taken away from me.

57:00When I went to Elizabeth Day, that was my failure, that I couldn't play sport anymore. I started to diet and I'd never done that. I was conscious of what I was eating. So Coca-Cola became Diet Coke and hummus became reduced fat hummus and I would eat rice cakes instead of crisps and I started dieting and I started to become thinner. and so then I became so conscious of my my weight which I'd never done before and then that led into which I didn't even realize looking back I didn't realize is that I would I then joined Made in Chelsea and I went on to Made in Chelsea and everything was edited for me um I had no control over my life I didn't know what was going on I was conscious of the way that I looked and all these things because people were writing stuff on social media and all this different stuff that I then had to control something so it became you know in part what I was eating and you know I've spoken to people who have had eating disorders and I have to you know it's hard for me to say but I had an eating disorder for sure I've never said that out loud and even I went to a therapist and when I told the therapist what was happening I had to cover my eyes in sex I was too embarrassed about it but there were moments in my 20s where I wouldn't keep my food down because it was just a complete control thing and it was a secret that I had and I knew that other people had this but I thought it was just women I thought it was a something that women suffer not guys no way you kidding me guys don't suffer with this you kidding me no way with not at all and actually I found one a friend of mine, a guy friend, close to mine, who was being sick into the loo once.

58:52And I joked with him about it. I went, oh man, like, are you okay? Don't worry about it. You know, it's okay. And I didn't tell him about my thing, but it made me realize that, oh, other men suffer with this. And when I first started dating Sophie, no one ever knew that I had this occasionally. And I do want to be honest, it was occasionally. It wasn't like a constant thing the whole time. It was just occasionally. Sophie caught me once and this secret that I had was suddenly not a secret anymore. And suddenly I realized what was going on. And she says to me, what are you doing? And I said, oh, I was doing nothing.

59:29And she said, yes, you were. You were. I heard you being sick. And I said, well, I know I wasn't. And she said, she said, it's OK. I just want you to know that whatever you're dealing with, I'm sorry. And if you ever want to talk about it, I'm here. and that suddenly became a I suddenly clicked onto what was happening I was like what the hell is it was like I was an out of body experience and then it was suddenly a realistic thing what I was doing I never spoke to Sophie again about it and I was then watching the Freddie Flintoff new documentary about it and Jack Whitehall who's a friend of mine actually went on the screen and he said that he had suffered with an eating disorder throughout I can't even say I find it hard to say the word but he suffered with an eating disorder and I thought well maybe I should talk about what I experienced because women are amazing how they talk about body positivity and that's just amazing and it's all great but with guys we never talk about it to be sexy and attractive we have to go to the gym and do press-ups and have abs and have bleaks and be able to lift 100 kilograms and look that way and not everyone can do that and we sort of suffer in my experience suffer really in silence because it's so shameful.

1:00:40You don't talk to your guys about it. No freaking ways. Are you kidding me? Not in a million years. I could maybe talk to my mum about it. I could maybe talk to my sister about it. Couldn't talk to guys about it. Yeah, and it was something that I thought was important to talk about in the book because if another guy picks it up and turns to that chapter and reads it and reads my experience and then the ways that I think are really good to coping with that situation, I think it could be really important. Yeah. But it was, yeah, it's for whatever reason, don't know, I'm happy. I can talk about my anxiety.

1:01:08I know. whatever it is, I can talk about anything. That, for me, is one thing that I really... Because I don't... Firstly, I don't want to be defined by anything like that. I don't want to be defined by anything, really. And also, I... Yeah, it's a very shameful thing, for some reason. I find it pretty shameful. I get it. Look, I felt exactly the same. That is incredibly hard to say the words out loud at first. I found it impossible for years. And, you know, I totally understand. And that's obviously the premise of the book a lot of the time is that boys, men don't have that natural inclination to talk about things and to discuss things or cry, which is obviously a big topic as well.

1:01:50But I think especially with bulimia, but many eating disorders, but especially bulimia because of the secrecy, you don't talk to anyone. I didn't tell anyone for years. And my mum was the person that called me out. And I remember every minute of it so clearly. And it was horrible and horrible for my mom. And I feel terrible that I put my parents through it. And it's so interesting you even saying about, oh, I wasn't doing it that regularly. I've always found that bit of it really tricky. Like what degree does it have to be at to say this is a problem, this is a disorder? Because mine was really extreme at the start.

1:02:29Sometimes I could puke eight times a day, nine times a day, ten times a day. It was nonstop. And then later down the line, I could go a month. I could go two months. I could maybe even go six months towards the very end of the problem. So I thought, oh, it wasn't really a thing then. It was like a stress reliever or if I'd eaten a tiny bit too much or I'd got too drunk, you know, I would always have a little excuse. Like, oh, it was a one-off. It wasn't a thing. But it's still an issue. It's still a problem. I don't think there's like a ladder of degrees as to, oh you're now allowed to say that this is an eating disorder or this is a problem if you find it it's a problem in your life it's a problem yeah you're completely right and i think there that you do try and find excuses for certain things and i think talking from a guy point of view i think we we're the best way of finding excuses for stuff and guys are very good at playing dumb to to their relationships to other friends to themselves very good at it and like oh no, it doesn't matter.

1:03:28Oh, it doesn't matter. Oh, it doesn't matter. And that time when Sophie said to me, that's when I woke up and I was like, oh my God. And I suddenly was like, what the hell am I actually, why am I even doing this? Like, why am I injuring myself? It was a sort of big wake up call. And you know, the real reason that I wanted to talk about it is like, I write about this, there was a, I went over to my friend's house, right? It was just after lockdown. and it was a group of friends and I write about them in the book as well and we sat in circles my friend Robbo and you know a few my friend Julian and all these people in there were just four of us five of us and we'd come out of lockdown and I had been feeling these like this real burnout and real sense of loneliness which I think a lot of people felt in lockdown and just lots of different things and we had dinner together and we sat on the floor and we're drinking beers and we're talking about the usual things that guys talk about and I just suddenly switched up the conversation I said because I want to ask a question do any of you ever feel lonely and they all pause for a second and one by one it was like an echo back yeah I feel really lonely feel really lonely I feel this I feel that you know my my friend said to me um you know the only person I speak to is my mum or on the phone when I come back and I'm really jealous of my little brother who games and all he does is talk to his friends all the time like an innocence and what I realized is that as soon as you open up that conversation you get these incredible echoes back of like people who are dealing with similar stuff or suffering with different things and until you open that door that conversation doesn't really happen no you know and and so that's why i wanted to do the w chapter i went on a stag recently for my friend ollie he's one of my best friends in the world and we it's a stag we're in madrid having the best time ever it was incredible all these different things we sat on the roof having a drink and i said right guys i want everyone to go around the circle i want you to say one memory core memory that you that you have with ollie and one reason he's changed your life.

1:05:18That's so nice. Oh no, we're not going to do that. And one by one, we all did it. And after the trip, the biggest feedback for everyone was, it's like, I'm so, that is the best thing. Still dating people yet. That is the best thing we did. And for some reason, and this is not a negative, and I don't know, I hope it doesn't come across as negative. Women are really good at gossiping. Oh yeah, we love it. Man, I hear Sophie on the phone talking to her friends. It's like talking about food, clothes, the weather, books, whatever. You need to process verbally. Anything. Details, details, details. Men have a really tricky time because we have to find a subject to talk about.

1:05:54So when you go to the pub, all the guys are thinking as they're going to the pub, okay, I can talk about football, I can talk about business. We have to find a topic. Can't just gossip. And so we find it really hard. In my experience, and I'm sure there's lots of guys out there who think differently, but in my experience, as guys, we don't open that door to talk about loneliness or talk about anxiety or talk about our weight or talk about our fear of failure. And so my book was to open those doors for everyone to have that conversation. And I kind of hope it does. And the reason why I'm really conscious to talk about the W-tub that I keep blabbering on is I don't want it to be, whoa, me.

1:06:35Like, I'm almost fatigued of talking about myself. But it's so not. Well, I hope it's not. It's so not. Because I don't want it to be that way. Well, look, A, we can all kind of gaslight ourselves and go, oh, you know, what we can do is put a disclaimer constantly before everything. Like, oh, but other people have it worse off and then you're actually losing the message, which is, I went through this thing. Yeah, you did. Doesn't matter that you were on Made in Chelsea. Doesn't matter about your upbringing. None of it matters. It's what you've been through and if it connects with other people.

1:07:03And I think the main theme of this book is communication and the fact that men do often struggle with it. And that's why we're seeing lots of terrible statistics that we all know about. And like you've just said, the most special moment on that stag do was you braving it and saying, let's do something different here rather than just like taking the piss out of each other. Let's say something lovely. Equally, when you're talking about weight and discussing eating disorders for the first time, it's communication. Whether it's when you were doing your ultramarathon challenge and people are seeing you actively feeling and being emotional.

1:07:39It's all a level of communication. And that's the beautiful thing. that's why I love podcasting because it's just that and it's storytelling and it's really important and you know when I did my old the you know the whole reason I wrote my book right the reason I wrote it is I had this sort of idea in my head for a while but after doing the ultramarathon run which if anyone who doesn't know I did five ultramarathons in five days all for comic relief right it was about 150 odd miles running and I it was like the most insane experience but like tougher than I've anything physically I've ever done and mentally it was really tough and you kind of have to always I think in life you always have to have a north star right like somewhere where you're heading right whatever that is like for me my run the north star was is that in my 20s I suffered with crippling anxiety and I never spoke about it so what I want to do on this run is run for all those people who suffer with some sort of mental health whether it's depression anxiety insomnia OCD whatever it may be and that was my north star the whole entire time and what the run the few things the run made me realize was but the big thing was as I was running through villages and towns throughout the UK and the amount of and when I started opening up right and the reason I started opening up right and I don't know why this opened up the floodgates but on the third day I was broken and I couldn't really walk and I had just done two ultra marathons which was like so it was a hundred and something kilometers in or whatever it was on the third day I got up and I got on the radio and I had to do the radio in the morning and I was she said to me, Jamie, I want to donate my pocket money to you.

1:09:12This 12-year-old girl, okay? I want to donate my pocket money to you. And she said, if you can get through these ultramarathons, I know I can get through my chemo. And whoever this little angel is, right, this sweet girl, that is like, my pain is temporary. Like hers, I don't know, for her, her family, whatever it is. and it made me realize that you know I kind of need to be a bit braver maybe in life and I don't know what that but it made me realize I need a bit braver so I started opening up about actually what I was feeling rather than saying we got to get over the stigma of mental health I said well look I've actually suffered with this guys and so when I was running then the support and the messages and the things that happened because and that's why we raised a huge amount of money because of all those things, which was so incredible.

1:10:03And so I realized that actually, when you start being honest about yourself, that opens up these doors for other people. So the reason I wrote the book is because afterwards, I was like, I really want to talk about all the things that I've experienced and hoping that a boy, a son, a daughter, an aunt, an uncle, a boyfriend, a girlfriend will pick it up or give it to someone and say, look, read this. I know you can't talk about it. I know you probably don't want to talk about it, but read this book. Whether you know this guy or don't know this guy, If you read it, it may help you. And we go back to that same thing.

1:10:33One of the reasons I did write the book is because I generally just really kind of want to help people. I think I've lived a really selfish life. I've been freaking hedonistic and selfish and done what I wanted to do for so long and kind of a bit bored of just focusing on myself for so long. Maybe helping someone else would be a good thing. So yeah, that's kind of the reason. Well, it is. It's beautiful. And we all loved watching your struggles through that, but your honesty and your openness, it was a phenomenal thing to see. And I think all the messaging around men showing emotion, feeling it's okay to call a friend and just simply either check in with someone or talk honestly about something, it is really powerful.

1:11:17And also the big thing is we need to be resilient. And maybe the pendulum has gone one way where we're not as resilient as we should be. So yeah, we agree, got to get back. but we still can't deny that like people there are awful things happening and people are taking their lives and just doing things because they're not really talking about it we went up to an amazing place in scotland with my candykins team recently and we went to this place called i think i'm gonna get glendye up in scotland which is it's an amazing place and part of it is where you go into the wild and you go with ex-veterans right and they take you into the world and they teach you how to start fires it was like a real bonding experience one of the leaders there one of the guys who set it up on the day that we had arrived was in the back of the car and he got a call from someone who was an ex-vet who was saying he was going to take his life and he had phoned this guy because he had found the number and he just wanted help and he called up this one guy and this guy managed to save it they were in the car with my team and this conversation was going on it's mad right and so as much as we say like oh we're talking too much about it and all these different things this is still happening in in the world yeah that needs to every minute because we're still not talking enough about it be resilient 100 % got to be resilient life is tough you got to pick yourself up when you get knocked out and if you don't come on yeah let's go everyone let's keep going but also at the same time we still got to realize that we can be vulnerable and being vulnerable is cool we can talk about things I still don't think we are talking necessarily especially with men enough yeah no I agree with you I totally agree and it's a beautiful motivation for this whole project in this book and no doubt you will touch many lives doing it without you don't have to you know put a disclaimer in front of that like you will you know honesty breeds honesty do you do how do you get your kids to talk it's very hard with rex i would say my daughter is really good at coming to me and saying i'm not happy about this or this is bumming me out she's really eloquent and open with rex it is harder you know he's on the cusp of teenhood and that takes a little bit more work and often i need to be that on my own with him or it's right before he goes to sleep that he might want to have a chat but i do think it's harder and it's hard to know whether that is just simply because he's a boy and that's you know hormone based and where he's at or if it is culturally and systemically where we're at with young boys is that they're not being encouraged in the world at school in their friendship circles to show vulnerability i think it's about that that's interesting he does it before bed yeah i think a lot of kids end up doing that yeah because it's a safe space where you can then set and then you can escape to the dream world so it doesn't feel almost real you can just said okay that's that by the way night and it's an interesting age because 12 13 you're kind of i want to be independent i want to do my own thing but at bedtime it's like oh but i'm still a kid and i need my mom or my dad or my carer like you have that yeah you know that vulnerability before you go to sleep and it's going to be dark and you're on your own and it's an interesting one but it's definitely harder but um it's hard look at some and i just think like i yeah i just think I kind of hope that someone will pick up the book and they'll go god even if like this is kind of helped me or has helped my son or whatever that for me is in like a sweet at least you know that's you will I really I do well I really hope so and look I really appreciate you talking about the W chapter because I find that still really well do you know what we can chat about that off mic whenever because I went through years amazing that you talk about it Now I feel absolute comfort, which does show that things can constantly change because I couldn't say the word.

1:15:02I couldn't say it. Even to friends, I couldn't say the word. And now I feel completely at peace, completely at peace. I don't feel any shame about it. I had a relapse about five years ago once and I felt a bit of shame and then I kind of got over it. Honestly, like we can chat about that. Yeah. And I mean that. I mean that. No, I really appreciate that. I'd love to finish by asking you where is your happy place Jamie Lamb well I actually did this thing once where you had to tap and you had to go to your happy place and for me weirdly enough my happy place in my mind is holding a rugby ball on my sports field at school with my friends and it's like a summer evening and the sun is slightly setting and it's like that smell in the air it's like you know that countryside smell I love that.

1:15:52And no kind of worries and no kind of responsibilities. That for me in my mind is like my happy place when I think about things. But now in life, I feel quite fortunate. I feel very happy in like work and doing that. But being with Sophie. Yeah. Man, she's honestly, she's a complete rock star. And I think a lot of people because of our socials think that she like, it doesn't like, she takes piss and stuff like that. And she does. And we have this funny band with each other. But man, she's a rock. Yeah. And I would back her to the end and she'd back me to the end. So being together, yeah, that's probably the happy place.

1:16:31It's heaven. Well, look, I wish you all the love and luck with your baby. Thank you so much. I was so excited for you. I don't know what to do. And good luck with the book, Your Other Baby. Really appreciate it. Thank you so much. And thank you for being on Happy Place. Adore you. God, that was a wonderful chat. If I do say so myself. But I say that from the angle of I immensely loved being in it. I felt it was a privilege that Jamie opened up in the way he did, especially about eating disorders, which I'm sure has impacted many of you, men and women. And I love the fact that he's still trying to work out how to talk about it all.

1:17:09You know, none of this is meant to be like perfect, slick. This is the interview where people just say the thing. No, like a lot of this stuff is really bloody uncomfortable to talk about. and that I think was an example of that. It was demonstrative of that trying to work it out as we go thing which we're all trying to do. Jamie's book Boys Don't Cry is out on the 23rd of October and I mentioned that Spencer Matthews will be on the show in a few weeks so we'll see whether we get into owning Made in Chelsea or not. I've kind of got to go there now haven't I? I've got to ask him. Next week though it's a biggun.

1:17:43We're basically going to try and cover the entire creation of the universe and humanity's place in it. Oh God, my brain already hurts. No pressure. It's a real mix here on Happy Place and we love it. Until then, a massive thanks again to Jamie, to the producer Anushka Tate at Happy Place Studios and to you, you beautiful lot.

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