Jason Derulo

0:00Hello and welcome to Happy Place with me Fern Cotton. This is the show that encourages you to define your own success. Today, I'm chatting to Jason Derulo.

0:39getting closer to whatever that goal is because it's part of your pattern. You've created a pattern for yourself. Jason was just 18 years old when he burst into the charts with the instant number one song, Whatcha Say. He started the song with arguably one of the catchiest lines in pop music history, his own name. We'll come back to that infamous line in a moment. Since then, his commitment to entertaining through music and more recently on TikTok has been unwavering. You'll realise quite soon in this chat that Jason is absolutely forensic about analysing music and socials industry data. He's similarly disciplined about routine and habit building too.

1:26Everything's planned from what he'll eat to when he'll work on music and all this attention to detail has objectively made him a worldwide success. But it was really interesting to hear that failure also plays a part in his evolution. Failure is, in his words, what awakens the beast and often paves the way for accelerated personal and professional growth. Jason's put everything he's learned about pursuing success, whatever that means to you, into a book called, yep, Sing Your Name Out Loud. Brilliant title. I found it fascinating talking to someone with such clear ambitions. Voicing and giving credence to my own big dreams is something I'd definitely like to get better at.

2:12So I'm really interested to hear what you make of this chat. Right, let's do it. Here's the show.

2:44Hello, Jason Derulo. Hey there, how you doing, Farron? I am very good. I actually interviewed you many moons ago because you came into the Radio 1 Live Lounge when I was at Radio 1 ages ago. And you know what really sticks in my mind is you told me that you went to the gym twice a day. But having read your book, you now go to the gym three times a day. At certain periods. Yeah. When I'm getting prepared for something, yeah, I'll do it three times a day. Absolutely wild. But this is discipline. This is dedication. And we're going to get stuck into that in a moment. You're in Australia currently.

3:17I actually just left Australia. I'm in New York. You're in New York. Oh, my God. You're all over the shop. So you're in Australia doing The Voice. Yeah. And were you enjoying it over there? It's actually incredible. So Sydney's one of my favorite places in the world. I just love the people in Australia. Just like really bright, fun, fun people. But the voice has been incredible filming that there. And now I'm in New York for this, for the book, the book run, as you will. Yes. Let's talk about your book. So Sing Your Name Out Loud, 15 Rules for Living Your Dream. Would you say you're living the dream, Jason?

3:53Wholeheartedly, unequivocally. And for me, that's being able to create, you know, my favorite thing to do in the world is to make music. So I have been living that dream for the last 14 years, making money doing that. And the majority of my life before that as well. But I think living your most successful life is being able to have the freedom to do the things that you want to do, but also get paid for doing those things. So that's what success is in my eyes. Yes. Yes. And I guess the interesting thing is living the dream. I guess the myth around it is that that means that you might have an easy life, that you're kind of free and carefree and life is easy.

4:36But actually, from reading your book and from knowing what you do and seeing you work, it's the direct opposite. Living the dream requires insane amounts of discipline, insane amounts of dedication. And I would say from reading your book, obsession. Would you say that's correct? Yeah. To be the best in the world at anything, it needs to be an obsession. You know, it has to be way different than the average, the norm, you know, and I think that is a common misconception. It's not just about hard work, right? It's really living and breathing a certain craft. You know, you can't just because even when I'm going to bed, I'm thinking about like my next move, my next step, you know, so it's I can't just turn it off.

5:22I can't just be like my day is over. You know, even when I'm sitting at dinner, having dinner, I'm still constantly thinking about work. You know, I'm still thinking about what what the next move is, what what the next creation is and so on and so forth. Or what is the creative new way that I can get people's attention? You know, it's always working at all times. So it is an obsession. And you say in the book that, you know, you're Mr. Mainstream. For you, it is about numbers. It's about who's watching you, how many eyes are on you, how many ears are listening to your music. Is it difficult to not get obsessed with trying to quantify your success?

6:01Or do you not mind that? I was wondering if it hinders your creative flow in any way, focusing so much on numbers. So it's not really a pop star thing to say. you know, I think about numbers, you know, and I thought about it for a long time, whether I wanted to put that part within the book, but I wanted to be as transparent as I could be. And I wanted to give people a true inside of what my thought processes were, because I think it's unfair to give half truths. So I wanted people to know the entire picture so that they can pick and choose the things that work for them. But for me, business is a huge part of any different genre, right?

6:44And I wanted to make sure that I was putting myself in the position to succeed the most. The numbers don't lie, right? And I was looking at all of the different genres of music that I could go in because I was a young writer, a young creator, right? 12 years old, probably at that time. And my manager at the time, Frank Harris was putting in front of me, these different charts from across the world. He's like, these are the charts in Germany. These are the charts in Australia. These are the charts in the Netherlands, blah, blah, blah. In the U S this, this kind of music is doing this many, this kind of music is doing this many.

7:22And then, so, and looking at these charts, I'm like, well, damn, like pop music is at the forefront. So not only can I possibly sell more, but I can reach way more people, you know? So I decided to go that route because of because of those numbers. But I mean, I can I can give you 20 different examples of where numbers actually mattered in my decision making. But even though it was like the road less traveled, the road that has never been done before by a black male artist, I still thought I'm going to go this way. So you got to be a little delusional. I was definitely delusional because every black musician has always started with an urban base.

8:04But I was like, why not? Why can't I do this? So I went that route. And how much of that do you think is, you know, you say, I think we're all like that, aren't we, when we're young. We're naive and we just want to go with what feels right. But I think as you get older, it's actually hard to keep hold of that gut instinct. Have you managed to keep that or to cultivate it that you're not too persuaded by what everyone else is telling you to do that you can stick with? this is the route I'm taking and I'm going down it thanks very much I agree with you wholeheartedly I think as you get older it's way harder to be a dreamer because yeah so much information comes your way and then so much negativity comes from what people say so that you live in more of a world of reality as opposed to what could be so I definitely I definitely agree with that but But I have been able to keep some level of that delusion still.

9:01Healthy delusion. Yeah. I always say I was a crazy child. I had the biggest dreams in the world. But I think I still do, you know, and I still have big goals and aspirations. I don't think I'd see anything slowing down. I never even thought that I'd write a book, but I just have so much information, you know, so much to give. And even for a non-Jason Dulo fan, I think this book is invaluable because it has, I pretty much walk you through what it took to get me to where I am today. And also where I'm headed. I'm headed in a really, really great direction business-wise as well. So I utilize the same anecdotes within this book, within business, and then my business has started to flourish.

9:51Same thing with social media. I applied the same things to social media and then social media just started to go crazy. So I was like, damn, I need to write this book so that another dreamer can have the same opportunities that I had. Yes. You've got these 15 principles that you kind of naturally created as a tiny kid that's led you to be where you're at today. But also, as you say, is really informing where you're headed and these different business decisions you're making and different career options that you're creating. I guess it's a really interesting combination of having to have obviously natural talent, being creative, but you can't just sort of waft around in creative land.

10:28You've got to have some sort of formula, some sort of format. And this seems to be it. This seems to really work for you. No, for sure. So for me personally, I think it's proper preparation. That's where this book would have came in handy when I was a kid. I would have knew exactly how to do it as opposed to trying to fill it out. So this is kind of like a guide for somebody who wants to live their successful life, whatever that means to them. Obviously, some people just want to be rich. Some people have a passion that they're chasing. But I think you need to have the right idealisms in mind because you can get lost really easily.

11:11Something simple like if you want to be a basketball player and you're competing against the people that are around you and you're much better than they are, it's easy to get complacent because you are the best one there. But the problem with that is if you don't realize that being the best in that room isn't enough, you can feel like it is, you know, but you're not, that's the people within your space. The chances of them making it to the NBA, the chances of them getting to the next level is slim to none. So you need to choose who your competition is because that's not really your competition.

11:45your competition is the best in the world right and you need to figure out these little things uh within within uh your path because you can easily get misguided if you if you're not pointed in the right direction and not have like those little tidbits of things that can make sure that you're just headed in the in the right direction because you know you may have all of the potential in the world but if you don't utilize that potential in the right way you can get lost Yeah. And another imperative is self-belief. And I think the majority of people really struggle with this one. I mean, I certainly do.

12:22I have days where I'm like, yeah, everything's going swimmingly. I know where I want to head. I've got my goals. I've got my methods in place. And other days you just feel crap and you feel bad about yourself and you have that nasty voice in your head worrying. How have you managed to stay on that track of self-belief? Because it feels like you really work to stay on it, to not let that sort of negative voice come in. I do. And just like everybody else, I go through those moments as well. But what has been the biggest driver in that area is staying within a routine based on your goals. so creating a routine for yourself so much so that you it's not about your feelings right it's not about how you feel that day it's like I'm I get up in the morning I go to the gym at this time I eat at this time this is what I'm eating this is what I'm drinking I have uh this amount of time set for my craft I have this amount of time set for my sleep and waking up and doing that same pattern every single day, no matter if you're feeling down, no matter if you're not feeling as confident that day, you're still getting closer to whatever that goal is because it's part of your pattern.

13:42You've created a pattern for yourself. And slowly you start learning to win the day. And when you get used to winning that day, it becomes addictive and then you want to win the week than you want to win the month. And then all of a sudden you're getting closer and closer to your goal. And you're like, well, damn, it doesn't seem as lofty. It doesn't seem as crazy. Because when you're looking at the end goal and you're like, how the hell am I going to get there? That doesn't even seem like reality. How the hell am I going to get there? It's just way harder to do that than just win the day. Like when you can win the day, like that, that shit to me is, is so invaluable.

14:26You can go to bed. It's like, I did what I was supposed to today. And I did it to the best of my ability. And then slowly your goal just becomes closer and closer. Yeah. I think it's overwhelming to just look at the big goal and think that's where I'm headed. I think you're right. It's the 24 hour thing. And I, I'm a massive believer in routine as well. I'm like a straight up classic Virgo. I have to do everything. Oh shit, me too. Yeah. Are you right? I'm, I'm third of September. I'm like, I'm in there. I am as Virgo, cut me in half. It says Virgo. I am up. I have my coffee at 6am every day. It's brilliant.

15:00And it gets me, it allows me to do a lot. And I definitely tick a lot off my list each day. Yet sometimes I think, shouldn't I be leaving more room for spontaneity? Shouldn't I leave more room so I can be a bit flexible and move with what's going on? Do you struggle with that or are you able to balance the two? It depends on what my goals are in that particular time. The times where I made the biggest jumps within my life, I took a look at those times and those have always been times where the world was quiet and I was able to just be in my pattern, in my craft. I wrote my most successful album to date in that time period, six platinum songs where I broke my neck and I could have been really down on myself because I couldn't tie my own shoe.

15:55I couldn't shower myself. I had to sleep on my back and who the hell sleeps on their back? But now I sleep on my back. It's the right way to sleep, certainly. You know, everything happens for a reason. So in that time, I could have been really down on myself. I was preparing for a large tour. And then I broke my neck. You know, it was just the craziest thing possible. Broke my C2 vertebrae. But it forced me to be in one place where I could have my routine back. I could have my routine again where I was waking up at a specific time, working out a specific time, whatever that meant with a broken neck and working on my craft for a certain amount of time.

16:37And I just made such a large leap. You know, I felt like I became a better songwriter, became a better version of myself. The pandemic, same thing. I became a better version of myself and I was able to finally crack the code of social media. You know, I was posting six times a day. I was doing it to the point of obsession. I had my set goal. I post six times a day. I was thinking of concepts, thinking of different things to do. And it was all within a specific time of day. and I was eating at the specific time and I was going to the gym at the specific time, gym in my house, you know, and in these times, the fact that I stuck to the exact plan and I didn't deter, I felt like that is the difference maker.

17:24That was the thing that the catalyst that just forced me to become an expert. Yeah. It's very interesting because in that moment where you, you know, horrifically break your neck before the world tour, you know, your routine got chucked out the window, your rehearsals for the tour, your gym going, your diet, everything out the window because you are having to lie around and rest. So it's interesting that you were able to mentally adapt so quickly because I think when we get thrown big life events like that, you obviously have choices, but it's really hard to make a decision in that moment because you're heartbroken or you're devastated or you just feel utterly floored by the unexpected.

18:05Where does that resilience come from? Because you might have just sort of sat around and gone, this is terrible. My world tour's cancelled. I'm in absolute agony. I can't work out. Is that resilience from your parents? Did they instill this in you? Where does that come from? I honestly don't know. But when you want something so bad, that is the best answer that I can give. I just have this insatiable desire to grow and to be better. And I get lost in my routine, you know, and I think without my routine, I wouldn't be where I am today. So the fact that I can always come back to something that's familiar, it's almost like a, it's a positive crutch.

18:54You know, in my darkest moments I still go back to the crutch where I think as some people may just take time off but time off to me is in within my craft but it's because I'm so obsessed with my craft that I that that has become the thing that is my most familiar shoulder to lean on with that in mind knowing how much it means to you and I you know I totally get it I love I love my jobs do a few more you know just so much I absolutely love them and they give me a kick they get me out of bed in the morning I feel so lucky that I get to do this podcast and the other things that I do and be creative when it becomes obsessional at what cost do you think you attain success for you personally um it's it's yeah it definitely definitely takes up the majority of my life it has taken the majority of my life.

19:49So it definitely comes with a price. And so you have to decide who you want to be in life, you know, because it is not for, it's not for everybody. I think that was one thing that I wanted to make clear within the book as well, because just because I did it or are some other people that you look up to have done it, does it mean that that's necessarily your path? Maybe you prioritize something different within your life and maybe something else matters more to you. But I wouldn't be able to go to sleep the same way. I wouldn't be able to live my life in the same way because I am the kind of person that I am for some reason or another.

20:35If it wasn't music, it would be something else. And I think it's just the way that I tick and everybody's different. You know what I'm saying? So I can give you my tools. I can give you the things that I've learned that have helped me because I really had to take a deep dive in my life and figure out what those things were. But at the end of the day, you have to put in the work that you're willing to put in for yourself. But I can save you some time and be like, don't waste your time. Maybe you should be a florist. Maybe that's more like your vibe. Maybe that's your path because you want to have more time to go to the movies.

21:14Maybe you enjoy going to the movies, you know, every week. Maybe you enjoy going out to nice dinners every week. You know what I'm saying? Maybe that's your thing. But everybody has a different path. Within this book, it is the path to be the greatest. Yes, and I like the phrase that you put in the book, success is for rent. I really like that because I think there is still a huge common misception that success is this like destination that you reach. And then when you get there, you're like, well, I'm successful. And then I'm this is me. I'm successful forever. And I think maybe that's been accentuated because reality TV is so commonplace and we see people have this huge ascent.

21:54And we assume that that is the bit. That's the good bit. But actually, it's the maintenance of that success. It's keeping yourself afloat within that success. And I guess that is, you know, hard work, discipline, reinvention, etc. I think we've got sort of success wrong in that way that we assume it's this sort of thing. We're going to get there and then everything's going to be OK. But, you know, you're living proof of this. You got there and then you're like, I'm blimmin' staying here. And you've worked very hard to keep moving into new areas and cultivating that success. For sure. Sure. I don't know that there's ever been a self-help book by any musician because I think there's hard truths in here.

22:36You know, there's real, real truthful things that I had to kind of let out. And this is one of them, you know, it's like it's not all glist and glam, you know, when you make it to the top, you know, because it's just as hard now as it was then. you know, you have to have that same kind of hunger. And that's why you see so many successful people are successful for a time and then they're gone because there is no, there is no coasting point, you know, and there's no like, there's no like ending, like, like you so eloquently put, like it's, it's, it's literally like, like starting back from scratch again.

23:13Like, how do I stay here? Like, you know, there's, there's that, that hungry young person that is, that is younger, that is hungrier that's looking for the next meal you know that successful person is eating good now living the dream and forgot about the work ethic you know and all of a sudden you see them descend descend descend um because there's always there's always somebody there's always somebody hungrier there's always somebody better so like what are you going to do um creatively that's going to just just keeps you at the top whatever the top means to you yeah and also when you get to the top there's another top because you can just keep going you can go all right i want to get a number one in 10 countries next time i want to get it in 30 countries there's just always another there's another thing there's always another another mountain to climb i was uh i was i was watching that um that arnold uh uh documentary um and he talked about the the the mountain climber that once he climbed mount everest he looked he was looking at the other peak like yo you'll be able to climb down and I was like wow that that's that's me in a nutshell it's just like once you reach something you want to go to the to the next level but the thing with that is I think that's literally the secret though right always chase something you can't stop chasing whatever uh stops growing dies you know so you always have to be constantly chasing the next level so that you can, you know, at least stay where you are.

24:44You know, if you're not chasing something, you're going to just start declining. And this requires risk, which is something that you touched on in the book quite a lot, actually. Risk is so important. You know, you've talked about this on off throughout our conversation. You can't do any of this stuff without taking risks. All of it's a risk. And I think, again, that's another perhaps misconception that, you know, living the dream, there's no risk. you're just having a great time and floating through life. Risk is extremely important. What do you think is the biggest risk that you've taken so far?

25:15I have to say the biggest risk was probably doing the kind of music that I decided to do, only because that was never done before. You know, every musician that ever comes out is always doing urban first and they get an urban bass and then they go pop. Yeah, I just decided to go that road less traveled. I guess other risks that I've taken in the business world, I've had much more failures than I've had makes. you know i tried uh i tried a vodka that didn't work well um i tried a clothing line that didn't work well and i was doing those things for the gratification for the money and um and i've seen it done a bunch of times right you know you see every musician comes out with like the the the alcohol and the the different apparel and stuff like that and that's cool like that's the road that everybody chooses.

26:15I'm going to go do that because that's what we do, but it didn't work out. So I started taking other risks and risks on things that I liked, you know, as opposed to like doing things that other people were doing. I started taking risks on things that were passions of mine, like food. I love food, you know, and I took a big risk on a restaurant called, called Catch. I was the biggest investor in a restaurant called Catch. And that flourished and became one of the biggest restaurants, even now, like still one of the biggest and most hottest spot in New York, hottest spot in LA. And it's honestly because that I loved it so much.

26:59One of the things that I'll say now is if you're going to take a risk on something, you should just be totally a fan of that thing first because if it goes downhill at least you can be like i liked it you know but the problem with with this this that i was doing before it was like i didn't necessarily love this vodka you know i didn't i it wasn't really my thing and i did it anyway so it hurt double you know what i'm saying um so at this point i i've i've only been doing things that I'm really passionate about and things that I'm a fan of first and foremost. And businesses just started to do so much better because of it.

27:41Yeah, I think people can really tell, can't they, when you're genuinely loving something and investing in it emotionally as well as financially. It's a really cool thing. When do you think a risk is reckless or becomes reckless? How can you tell the difference? I think the risk needs to be rooted in who you are. I don't think you should just take risks just because it's a risk. I think the risk needs to be, it needs to come from a place of truth. I think a reckless risk is something that you just created just to be taking a risk. Like, for instance, like I never, like I never wanted to go skydiving because I'm just like, why?

28:23I hear you. I've never done it either. It's a Virgo thing. We don't skydive. We just don't do it. Yeah, but I don't really, you know what I'm saying? But I think you need to take risks that are rooted in truth. So when I'm taking risks, there are risks that I dream up and that I think that are incredible to myself. If I didn't think they were incredible, then it's not worth taking that risk. If I don't think that it's going to come and shock the world in a good way, I'm not willing to take the risk. But if I believe in my heart of hearts that my idea is crazy because it's never been done before, but I can stand behind it, that's cool.

29:07You know, like talk dirty. I believed in my heart of hearts that that song was going to be either the biggest song in the world or it's going to be the most looked over song of all time. Or you can laugh that because it was just the first of its kind. It was just, you know, a song that didn't sound like anything else. And I was willing to take that risk because I I felt like it could come in and just like disrupt what was going on. But all in all, I could have been laughed at for it, you know. and that's a risk that I was willing to take. Thank God you did, quite frankly. How do you feel, Jason, about luck?

29:47Because it's extremely clear that discipline and hard work are the core of who you are. You know, that's who you are. You've been like it since you were a tiny kid. Hard work. As soon as you started to realize that dream, you were out there hustling. You were talking to DJs relentlessly. You were working it before you had any contacts out there, any foot in the door. How do you feel about luck? Where does that fit into the equation of success, do you think? I think luck is a bit of a factor. Within timing, I think luck is a factor. Maybe if luck wasn't on my side, I would have gotten my stardom a little later.

30:29That would have never stopped me. Like I would have never stopped. I was just relentless. and still am relentless. So it was only a matter of time. And maybe if luck was on my side a little more, I would have been successful a little earlier, you know, but I don't think that luck is the end all be all. I think that luck sometimes is in people's corners and, you know, they, they end up somewhere that like, it was like, damn, well, how did I get here? but I don't think luck keeps you there I think luck can can get you to a place but luck luck runs out just like anything else you know and people start to see the real you and you know you can only do so much based on having good luck you know it's going to take a lot more than just luck to have a sustaining, successful career in anything.

31:27Yeah, without a doubt. I mean, what you're describing throughout the book and also in this chat is something I'm deeply fascinated in, and that is essentially manifesting. It has loads of different other names, but I think manifesting is a good way of sort of describing what you're talking about. You, you know, from age four, were like, I'm going to be a singer. It's happening no matter what. And you started manifesting then. I think that is so fascinating. And I wonder what you think the ratio is of how much forward action is required versus positive mindset and keeping in that frame of mind.

32:00I think they go hand in hand. I think it's a 50-50 thing. I don't think one goes without the other. You have to believe that that's your future, so much so that the trillion cells in your body and they start to do the things that it takes to get there. You know, if you look at yourself like the next, the next goat, the next greatest of all time, you're going to slowly start taking those steps that it takes to get there because you know, that's where you're going. You know, as if somebody was watching you with a camera crew, right? I love, I love that phrase. It's like you should be working like somebody is traveling with you and they're telling your story.

32:46I used to I used to literally live my life as if it was like some sort of documentary and other people could see me. And to this day, I get re-inspired by myself. I get re-inspired by the things that I see, the things that I read. and sometimes you know you need a little you need a little shake up but it's important whatever shaking up means to you it's important for you to believe in your heart of hearts that your goal is in your future you can't say that this is my dream this is my dream job like you can't that's not manifestation. That's not the power of the tongue. You need to speak it into existence.

33:36You need to say, this is what I'm going to do. And it's that simple thing that could change your life. From when I was a kid, my mom used to be like, you got to learn how to clean up. You know, you don't have a dirty house. You know, the girls ain't no, no girl's going to like, you know, girl's going to want to be with you. You know, had this dirty house. And I'm like, mom, I ain't never going to clean my house. And at that point, I see my mama hand go up like, what?

34:08But what I was trying to say as a kid, of course, I was a kid. I didn't know how to word it correctly. But what I was trying to say is, I believe that my time is going to go towards my craft. All the time that I'm spending is always going to be to my craft. And of course, I received respect everybody. And I respect hard work. And I respect people that work for their money, you know, to the umph degree, you know, no matter what it is that you're doing, if you are working to make a living, I respect you to the umph degree. But for myself, I knew that I was going to spend my time on my craft, you know, and that's where all of my time was going to go to.

34:51And I believed from that age that that was my future. And I partly blame her because she was the person that taught me how to speak things into existence. She was the person that taught me to be very careful with things that I say, you know, so much so that she would say, you know, this dessert is to live for. She wouldn't say this dessert is to die for, you know and and it's those simple things those those words that that you say that can speak life and success into your life I think I think many of us talk shit about ourselves and we don't realize how much you know like little moments throughout the day where you go oh god I've just totally cocked that up or oh I'm such an idiot you know we say it constantly like tiny little things or someone throws a compliment our way and we go oh god don't be crazy you know I think all of those moments count, don't they?

35:43They're all very important, how we talk about ourselves. And I wonder for people out there who are listening to this, who, and I'm taking all this on board, Jason, because I've got plans that I definitely want to commit to, but sometimes that nasty, shitty voice gets in my head and I don't want it there anymore. So I'm taking heed of everything you're saying. But if there's people out there listening to this thinking, do you know what, I've got a really big dream and I really want to do it, but I just don't know how to believe in myself. Do you think faking it until you make it is a good enough start?

36:13Absolutely. Okay, for you. Because you have to do it until you believe it. So I have had so many days where I had to like go into some sort of interview or like go into, you know, some sort of performance where I just did not feel myself. You know, I didn't feel happy to do it at that specific time, but just like smiling, like putting on that fake smile, all of a sudden in an instant, you start to feel a little different and let five minutes pass and then let 10 minutes pass. And then all of a sudden, like, this feels incredible. Like I feel good. Like I'm, I'm, I'm back baby, you know? And, And it's simple things like that.

37:05Like if you can fake a smile and make yourself happy, why can't you fake that you believe in yourself and then eventually start to believe in yourself? I think it goes hand in hand. I think it's the exact same thing. Yeah, I think it's a really good starting point for people that just feel like it is unmanageable to believe that I can do this, just to pretend and try and practice it, essentially. It's practice, isn't it? And then obviously along the way, when you've got big goals, no matter what they are, no matter what level your self-belief, even if it is peak self-belief, you are undoubtedly going to fail along the lines.

37:43In some way, you're going to hit road bumps, things are going to go tits up, and you're going to have to pick yourself back up and get back on track again. What would you say is the biggest learning from any failure you've experienced along the way? That failure is positive. All of my failures have been changed into some sort of motivation. There's two kinds of people. There's the person that a failure is going to deter them and they're going to be turned off by it. And they're going to be like, let me try something easier. And then that is a person that fails and has the, I'm going to show you mentality.

38:23And it's the, I'm I'm going to show you mentality that has been a huge driver within my life. And I can give you five different examples where I had a bad experience that that turned me into a beast for a time. And those times add up. And if I was able to focus in and just become a different person for two months, I slowly started to become that person. And, you know, I remember when I had this girlfriend, I was really young and she was an older, older girl than I was coming to New York. You know, I was supposed to be meeting all these labels and she knew, you know, she knew I was a prospect, you know.

39:09And I came and I met with all of these different labels and came back home empty handed. None of the labels wanted to sign me. I was still a nobody. and um i saw it must have been like some like something like myspace or something at the time myspace or something and she was like with this dude and i'm like who like who's this who's this guy and she was like i don't worry about it i said don't don't work don't worry about it what you mean don't worry about it um the pain's still fresh isn't it jason the pain's still there And then she hung up on me. And in that moment, I was like, I know exactly what I need to do.

39:53I need to become the best version of myself. I need to become the beast. So that awakened the beast inside of me. And for like three months, I couldn't think about anything else, but making myself better in every way. You know, I was eating better. I was working out harder. I was writing more songs. And for that time, like that was like a building block for me. You know, you see it all the time, right? Like people would have like this breakup and then they like go and work out and eat well. But yeah, all failures, hopefully all failures can be that positive thing within your life because you know failures are really tough to deal with so instead of soaking about it I I would I would awaken that beast inside of you and utilize it as as ammunition yeah I definitely do that I've got loads of and they're people that I'm not even bothered about anymore but I think I'm gonna bloody show you I'm gonna I'm gonna do that thing you wait it's really good motivation because I think actually anger gets a really bad rep anger can be amazing and frustration when you use it and you channel it and you pump it into something it's so it's rocket fuel for sure i bloody love it um jason well done on writing your brilliant book it's jay what it really made me laugh as well the bit that made me laugh the most was where you talk about eating four bananas a day by accident and then you couldn't do a shit yeah i love that bit that's funny that i'm in new york at the time that you're saying that because this is this is the they were selling them fruits on the street 25 cents and you learn the hard way that bananas are binding is the moral of that tale um jason it's been so lovely talking to you thank you so much good luck with your book not that you need it because that discipline that dedication will be applied to this book like everything else but it's been great talking to you today likewise it's been such a pleasure so nice to talk to you again what I loved about there's many things I loved about that chat I loved that Jason was willing to be so honest about how disciplined you possibly have to be to reach your full potential I think often we look at others and think oh they're doing so brilliantly they're making it look really effortless and easy but behind that effortlessness is absolute discipline and hard work and with Jason obsession and I loved his honesty about that and it's made me actually really knuckle down, stop whining when I get tired and really focus on what I want to do because I'm happy to admit I do have dreams, I do have ambitions and I'm going to really put effort in to try to execute them as best I can.

42:40So thank you, Jason, for giving me a big old kick up the arse. Jason, a massive thanks for your time. That book, Sing Your Name Out Loud, The 15 Rules for living your dream is out now. And for more book recommendations, remember, you can always hop over to Happy Place Book Club on Instagram. It's at Happy Place Book Club. You can tell us what you're loving at the moment and also have a look at our own book club recommendations. All right, back here next week. So make sure you're following the podcast wherever you like listening. Until then, massive thanks again to Jason. I didn't sing his name.

43:16Note that. To the producer Anushka Tate at Rethink Audio and to you. Keep dreaming big, you beauties.