Jess Glynne: Gut instinct, grief, and fucking up

0:00Hello, I'm Fern Cotton and this is Happy Place, the show that knows real growth can come from the darkest places. Today, I'm chatting to Jess Glynn. Losing a friend, I think, has done a job. Like, I'm not that Jess from before the night that that happened. You just don't see life the same ever again. And I think what it really has taught me is life is about making choices for your own happiness. And that's not selfish. That's actually just doing the right thing. It's one of those things where, because of, like, that tragedy and then going through therapy and then kind of coming out the other side, Now I feel like, OK, I got this, because what's the worst that could happen?

0:42Jess made history by becoming the first British female solo artist to score seven number ones in the UK singles chart. Her two platinum-selling albums were both number one records too. Now she's back with her most personal music to date. Her new album is called Jess, and it's a real deep dive into who she is, what she's been through, and how she's feeling. I absolutely love her single Enough, which I think is a song we all need to really take heed of. Listen to those lyrics and believe it. I first met Jess when she came into the Live Lounge. I think it was about either 2013 or 2014. And she was with Clean Bandit.

1:23They were in the Live Lounge and she was on their featuring track. And I think all of us were just like, wow, who's this? That voice is amazing. And then I met Jess many times over the years in the Live Lounge, different music events and also personally because there's also an incredibly sad reason we're connected too. So one of our really brilliant mutual friends died really suddenly. So the last time I saw Jess was sadly at her funeral and I wasn't sure at the time of doing this chat if we'd walk into that territory, if we would talk about our mate Lindell but it very naturally came up and it was really lovely to be able to share some memories with Jess, but also to hear how grief has galvanized her.

2:11So we chatted about how death can change your outlook on life, why forgiving ourselves and each other is so important, and why it's really, really okay to not be anything or anyone else but you. Hi, this is Nox from the podcast with Nox and Jamie. And maybe like us at the podcast, you also know people who have been smokers or vapors. And Zen is the one product it seems like everyone is talking about because there are many good reasons to make a change to Zen nicotine pouches. Reasons like Zen nicotine pouches are still America's number one choice for smoke-free, hands-free nicotine satisfaction.

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3:50Right, here we go. This is the show.

4:15Hi Jess Glynn. Hi there. I love your new song. Do you? Thank you so much. I love it. There's a line in the chorus that says, I'm more than enough. That is right, yeah. How did you get to that place? Do you know what? that song was a real journey and I think it's crazy because I'd been on such a break, right? Because COVID had happened and then was in lockdown and then I was like burnt out from tour and I didn't want to see a studio or a microphone or anything and then they kind of lifted the rules and we went into the studio and so much time had passed and it was like, well for me anyway because I'd been on the road for like seven years so six months felt like a long time I went to the studio and there was like this self-reflection day because there was like there was was it six of us yeah about six of us of like who just came together and we were like have you survived are you all right humans yeah we were all like oh my god what have you been through how you feeling and everyone kind of was talking about what they've been through and where we like what was going on and how we were feeling and I was obviously talking about my struggles and my like you know my ins and outs of what i was going through with work with personal life and it was just this kind of really nice moment of people reassuring each other you're all right and you know what you got this like you like to spell this of course yeah i was gonna say fuck that it was just one of those like literally like not in a nasty way but like kind of fuck what everyone thinks and like you're all good like do you and like that reassurance of like you're good enough to do what you want Jess and everyone as well in the room so it was really yeah it was one of those moments.

5:54Not many of us feel like that I think it takes such work to get to a place where you go I am enough even if I never do anything ever again I am enough as I am I think most of us feel really battered by whether it's outside commentary from other people or just stuff that we've been through so prior to you feeling like I'm good I'm enough where were you at? Do you know I think I was on a rollercoaster. I think it was that I'd been on the road, I'd released the album one and then that had gone crazy and then two and then that had gone crazy. And it was amazing. And I think pre-going in for this album, I genuinely think I'd lost myself a bit.

6:35Because I was like, oh, what do I want to say? Who am I? And it's mad because I wrote this song and I swear, this song set the tone. It just made me realise, okay, I know where I'm going. And I think it was, I mean, it's been a whole process. like it's been good four years but that was the moment I was like this song's definitely going on the album and this is why because I think when you listen to the lyrics of that song it's kind of like every lyric and every like the verses it's like okay I've done this and then that's all right but this happened but then okay that was a barrier but then like it's kind of like a push and pull the whole song and that's kind of how I felt leading up to going back in the studio yeah there was a lot of push and pull in my life and I think with my team I was struggling a lot to find a balance of like them understanding who I was and also being able to kind of it's sometimes hard to execute like when you've evolved so much and having to explain yourself a lot and it's like I don't want to have to keep kind of telling you where I'm at and who I am and why and that's a draining yeah it's a lot yeah and if you don't get it you don't get it and I think I would at that point actually I wasn't ready to be like if you don't get it you don't get it and that's okay we can part ways I wasn't ready then but it was getting to that point I think and also you know you're you're in an industry even outside of your label you're in an industry that can make you feel not enough in so many ways whether it's pressure from your label pressure from the industry just as a whole also the outside commentary from your fan base or from people listening to your music it's pretty relentless in terms of feedback so how do you now mitigate that to still feel like I'm enough I don't need to take on other people's whether it is critique or whether it's just people asking questions that aren't particularly welcome yeah it's a journey it's definitely a journey and it is crazy because I think just going on even when I wrote this song I still didn't have that belief system in myself so that was kind of have a word with yourself but then And it was like it took them probably another year or two to actually get to that point where I was like, oh, you know, you're actually good enough and you're OK.

8:47And yeah, it's OK to say no. But that's such a lot of work because, like you say, the industry is so full of like expectation. And I think also we put it on ourselves. Well, it's competitive, isn't it, as well? Yeah. So it's kind of like you're surrounded by a lot of people who are like doing the most. And these perfect imageries of life and, oh, this person's doing this and that. But actually, it's like, it's not about anyone else. It's about your journey. And it's like, block out the noise and just focus on you and what makes you happy. But it takes a lot to get there. Took me a lot to get there.

9:20Yeah. What else do you think helped you get there? Have you done therapy? Is it just having good people around you? I did go into therapy. So at the end of 2020, I was, so that's when I started the album. And then the beginning of 21, I went to America for like six to eight weeks, actually, to write. which was really great but also a really weird experience actually because that was the start of like my big lostness if that's even a word in the wilderness I was yeah I kind of went out there just on my own and I was like right I'm working with some people I've dreamt like Greg Kirsten I've dreamt of working with for like my whole career but there was this imbalance and it was that moment of like okay just block out everyone and just go in and do you and it's the first time I really did that I'd sit in my hotel room I would blast Joni Mitchell and go back to old records because I'd lost like touch with music and listening to current music I just couldn't connect so I was like listening to loads of Joni loads of Blue loads of Amy loads of Prince just so like feel good um and also like I think for me I've never I think been super open with like the world in a way I think there's a part of me I've really kept to myself and I think I made a decision when I was in LA to just like Jess tell your story be honest be real and let it all like like let it all out in this this album and like write songs that when you listen to like a Joni story it's like a real detailed like feeling it's like yeah so I just wanted to achieve that I think hence why the album's called Jess yeah you're putting your story out there that's a beautiful thing what do you think um led to you holding bits of yourself back previously like what you said before I think there's so much kind of pressure and judgment and so much like I mean fame is scary don't you think Are you in that spotlight early, right?

11:19It's fucking weird. Yeah. I don't know what I feel about it. Most of the time I just think it's not a thing. I just crack on my life. I go to the supermarket. I do all normal things. Just get on with it. But it is weird. It is. It's a weird feeling. And I think I only really notice a difference when I go to another country. So I'm like, I don't know, in Ibiza or whatever in the summer or wherever I am. And I know that I'm completely anonymous. I go, oh, I sort of sigh out. and relax because you're not on that high alert of, is someone watching me or whatever? Yeah, it's somebody going to go. Yeah, it's mad, isn't it?

11:53So there was a fear of judgment, would you say, holding bits of yourself back? I think I just, do you know how I could break it down? I think the best thing is to, I don't think I was ever, and I can only look at it now, I don't think I ever felt 100 % comfortable, and that's in myself, in my job, in everything, where I felt like I know who I am. And that's not me being cliche or whatever, but I genuinely feel like, oh, okay, there's a reason why I feel like that now. And it's because of the journey I've been on, because I've evolved, because I've done a lot of work on myself, because I've been through a lot.

12:27And I think looking back, having had the success I've had and been on that journey, it's like I kind of know what's safe and what's not now. And also I genuinely do feel like I'm in a stable place in my life and I'm happy with who I am, which is a big thing to say and to feel. but it's but I think that's part of it and I and I wouldn't have known that back then that's why but I'm guessing that's probably why I never felt 100 % like comfortable to be okay hi let's have this chat you know whereas now I feel like oh okay I can have that chat I don't think it's a cliche at all I think it's extremely common that most of us growing up just are trying to I remember even in the sort of in the presenting quota of my career I'd be constantly going should I be a bit more like somebody ball who I'm absolutely obsessed with or should I try and be like more Denise Van Outen in the 90s like who the hell am I and it takes you so long to work out it's okay to not try and be anything you can just stop trying and just go be firm just be me and there's going to be days where that's great and it works out and days where it's just not as great and that's absolutely fine yeah but it takes a lot to get there I think you've done it quite early actually do you think yeah i hope so yeah i am glad that like i feel i think for me um so after that album process and then kind of like part in ways of my management and then part in ways of my record label and doing that all on your own is like i mean it was incredibly hard at the time i can't even tell you like i was on yeah another yeah in another place in my head and whatever was going on but I think coming through it and being like whoa you did all of that yourself you negotiated all that yourself you figured all of that out I thought you're all right you know if you can go through all of that then you're all right change is so scary scary yeah you're free-falling because also it's like that moment of like accepting that you might not do another deal you might not do this you might got you don't know what's to come but like I'm a very strong believer of like self-belief and like believing in what your gut says because I've always been like that I think and so I was like no no it's gonna be all right it's gonna be all right yeah so looking back now I'm like yeah that's probably how I got to that yeah well when you when you strip back everything and you're accountable and it's just you accountable for where you're going what your direction is I think that's how you build resilience isn't it because you go all right I like you said you got through that and you're in a good place with teams that you want to work with yeah like handpicked because it's like you meet you then I guess I was in a position of like oh okay I can choose who I want to work with and I can if someone makes like if there's a connection and it was like this family has just grown around me and it's it's actually beautiful because it's like oh that's all come from me yeah but and from making those decisions and what have you and so it's like I'm now surrounded by such incredible people that like you know we've built this new foundation and it's like album's ready and we're like you know it's It is a been a process.

15:31But yeah. Also to say as well, I think part of that, you know, losing a friend in the middle of that, I think has done a job. Yeah. Because that was just before I actually chose to leave my management and my label. And it was like that moment of that loss and that like kind of it was quite tragic for me. I think that opened my eyes to like make choices for your own happiness because life is short oh god I mean totally I mean just for context for the listeners this is a friend that was a mutual friend of us who it was was and I was wondering this morning I actually spoke to Lindell's partner yeah she left behind Tom and I said look I'm meeting Jess the subject will probably turn to Lindell at some point because she was such a huge part of both of our lives and I mean she made such an impact on everyone's lives that she touched because she was just the most incredible character and it's easy to say that when someone's not here anymore but she really was a special person.

16:34That's the best thing to say, you know. It's so easy, like people say that when they're not here but this person, yeah. It was. And also she died extremely suddenly which was, I mean, beyond a shock for all of us to sort of comprehend and get our heads around and it was almost impossible. I still feel like it's impossible that she's not here. Yeah, there's that, what's that thing that I don't, I can't remember someone said it to me, it's like you live your life and you kind of pretend they're still there. Because you're like, oh, I just don't see her today. Yeah. Yeah, and you like think about her and you're like, oh no, it's just because she's doing something in Australia.

17:08Yeah, and when someone was so like bright and vibrant personality-wise, you just think, you can't not be here, it's too weird. And I think, you know, for anyone that's been through anything like that and for it to be in shocking circumstances, it can't not change you. How do you think that notion of life is short has impacted you and your decision making? So the impact of that in my life has been huge. I think it's again, it sounds cliche. It's like changed me forever. Like I'm not that Jess from before the night that that happened. It's mad. Like, I'm still obviously me, but I think you just don't see life the same ever again.

17:52And I think that's when I really started therapy because it was something that obviously I really needed to figure out and deal with because of PTSD and all of that stuff. And I think what it really has taught me is, like, life is about making choices for your own happiness. And that's not selfish. That's actually just doing the right thing. and that person, Lindell, was the one person that always was like, you've got to do what your gut feels. And, you know, even the last time I was with her, we had the conversation about my whole team and whatever and, you know, she was like, fuck this, do this, go get this.

18:27And to be honest, all the conversations we had and all the choices she told me to do, I've done them all. Wow. So it's kind of beautiful, but it's one of those things where because of, like, that tragedy and then going through therapy and then kind of coming out the other side, now I feel like, okay, I got this, because what's the worst that could happen? You know, and that's it. Been through that, like, come on, like, give it to me. Do you know what I mean? You feel like you've built this armour now of, like, I got this, you know. As hard as it is and, like, reflecting, it's not easy, but it's like, you know what, I've got this.

19:02Yeah. Yeah, it's such a strange, complex thing to look back on. It is complex, yeah. I was speaking to Tom this morning on Voice Note. There's all these stories that keep coming and sometimes you think, is it appropriate to share these memories? It's again sort of feeling your way, like is it okay to share this memory today? Because I've had all these brilliant sort of memories bubble up of your time together. But actually one of the memories I was talking to him about was I got so bollocked at the funeral because I was in the car park afterwards with a small group of people. And because she made such an impact on everyone's life and all of our stories were so funny, like all the memories that I have of her were like we were either hysterically laughing or something absolutely bananas was happening.

19:54We were like sort of crying but laughing our heads off and it felt like a very Lindell moment. and the guy who was doing the next service came out and was like, guys, can you shut the hell up? We're doing like another funeral. And we were like, oh, my God. But I was like, again, that is the most Lindale. She would have been like cracking up with laughter. She would have been like, do one, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I know. It's mad, isn't it? I know. But it's a strange thing and I don't think you ever really get your head around it. But I do think, like you just said. It's a part of the journey. It is.

20:27And you live differently because of it. and not in a like a bad way I think it's like it's one of those things that I don't often talk about um but it is one of those things that I can at least look back and it's like it is so shit that that happened and I wish it never happened but I can at least kind of like move forward now knowing that it's been like actually my changes in my life and the pluses that are like that I'm living because she was that person that was like you have to be you and do you and what's right and And if walking away from that is right and choosing this as your team and going here, like you've got to do that.

21:00And I think having that voice on my shoulder, regardless of whether it's, you know, she's here or not, it's definitely put me in a place where I'm like, I can be like, thanks. You know, like you helped, even though you disappeared. Yeah. But we've all got to live like that. Yeah. Regardless, whatever the situation that life is so short. And we all know, even this last few years has been this weird time warp of what is time and what year are we in and what's going on. We've got to just like grab life and go for it. I think we all forget and we all get complacent. It's human nature that we're stuck in the minutiae of life and, oh God, I'm late for this.

21:35I've got this big list of things to do. But actually, we've got to grab life and just fucking go for it. We've got to. That's the thing, I think, as well, over the past few years, obviously, been going, you know, doing an album, work it. I've been working my ass off to make sure that, you know, I get this album done. I can't even believe it's, like, going up to five years since my last record. Like, it's, like you said, it's time warp. It's mad. But then it's, like, through that time, I'm like, oh, I'm so glad I make choices now to, like, go on holiday and take time off. And if my family put that first or, like, I don't always prioritise work, you know, I think that's also something that in this industry is so easy to do.

22:13It's like saying yes to everything because you don't want to miss an opportunity. but actually what is that opportunity and how important is that in comparison to like you living your life and like having you know a moment's break or being with your nan or you know i think we give ourselves such a hard time in choosing to have time out or switching off even at the weekends and go i'm not going to think about whatever it is that i'm doing i think the industry and there's a lot of industries like this that certainly perpetuate that feeling of i've got to keep on the move i've got to keep thinking and mulling over things but actually we're not going to look back one day and go I'm so glad that all I did was work and work and work like we're going to look back and think of all the little precious memories of like little breaks or like time of your nan or time of your family it's mad isn't it you forget that though when you're in it and I think that's where I get to like Jess and the album and I'm like yeah you know what this has taken time and when I listen through it it doesn't feel like an erratic record and I think that's why I love it so much as well.

23:12So I'm like, oh, you know what? Maybe it's taken a long time because of all these things. But at least I can listen to it and go, you know what? It all makes sense. The market's uncertain. Revenue's tied and hiring on hold. That's why results-driven companies are using Upwork to keep work moving. Go to Upwork.com today and start hiring proven freelance talent fast. No bulky overhead. No rigid long-term contracts. Just the right expert right when you need them. Work smarter and faster with Upwork. Go to Upwork.com now and find your freelance expert. That's U-P-W-O-R-K.com. Post a job for free and get started today.

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25:09There's also a song there called Silly Me, which I think is really something that we need out there. And there's a lot of people at the moment, like we've got Dawn French coming up on the podcast soon and she's written a book called The Twat Files, which is amazing. The Twat what? Twat Files. I thought you said farts. What, twat farts? I don't know, twat files. She'd probably love that. And it's all about the moments where you're just a massive twat, which we all are all the time. We all make mistakes. and we've got to reiterate this message that we're human and that there's going to be things that we look back and think, I wish I hadn't done that or I wish I hadn't messed up here, whatever.

25:41We've all done it. But I think the margin for error is getting so small and there's no room for any of us to make mistakes anymore. And I think that's so unhealthy. It is. It's so unhealthy. And I think, and I'm sure, I don't know whether you have experience, like the social world, social media world, And it's like the attack and like just minor error becoming the end of someone's career. And it's like, look, at the end of the day, some things, yeah, OK, you need to lock off and what have you. I just think it's allowing room for people to make a mistake, but then teaching them and going, do you know what?

26:15As long as that person, if they've made that mistake, can go and learn from it and actually teach themselves why they made that fuck up or whatever it was. and they can rectify it in their life moving forward. What's the problem? I agree. Because who out there can say, I've never made a mistake, so I therefore can judge you on yours? Nobody. I know. Nobody. And it's really dangerous territory for us to get into a space where we're like, everyone's got to get it perfect all the time because that's impossible, but it also sets a horrible standard for everyone else. And I think that's where we start to internalise shame and guilt and really harbour it.

26:52And we don't need to. we should be able to go I fucked up sorry let's move on because I think actually the more forgiving and this is what I think people forget especially like people keyboard worrying whatever if we're forgiving of other people we're going to forgive ourselves more easily which is a relief that's a huge relief I love that you brought that up as well like silly me when I did that song and I made sure that that was the first song that kind of came out of me and into the world before everything started again purely for that reason because it's like I felt like that message and I feel like that message is so freaking important.

27:25Like, this is me. And oh gosh, like literally, silly me, because it is like that. You shouldn't be so hard on yourself. You shouldn't be so heavy with it. And it's like, look, I can look back and I've definitely made a lot of mistakes. Yeah, we all have. And like, but I don't look back and think, you bad person. You're not an intentionally bad person. You just like were tripping up and like had to learn along the way. And that's why you're here. And I'm probably going to trip up again. Oh my God. that's the most humbling thing we're going to keep doing it forever yeah I'm going to do it again yeah and I think it's like the sooner like we start accepting that and stop getting these big fat boundaries between and like fear because that's what it does like it instills like a fear in you and I think that's another thing like just to go back to like Lindell it's like she was fearless fearless fearless and I think honestly like those things that that person surrounded us with I live it I really do and I like what I've done with this record and moving forward with my life and like you know it's like I have to be fearless you know and I have to dive in at the deep end because it's like if you don't do it now when you're gonna do it yeah like that's the maddest thing it's like well if you don't make that choice now then it might be too late or you might miss that choice or that opportunity or whatever that is because then and then you're like ah then you really are like silly me yeah and also no one out there can try anything new or do anything without someone saying something it could be your auntie or it could be a million people on social media but there's always going to be someone that says oh I don't know if you should be doing that or you're not very good at that so you've just got to fuck it all off and do the thing, you've got to do the thing do the thing, live your life I have to tell myself this all the time because I'm constantly wanting to push myself, try new things do new things but there is always that fear of oh my god what will people say, what will people think we've just got to get rid of that fear I mean you came off social media for quite some time and took a break from it how was it integrating back into that world putting yourself back out there in that way I think for me um I came off of it because I really did need a break something had happened and I felt incredibly battered to be honest I'll just be real um and I was receiving like a lot of negativity and like death threats and like it was just I was like whoa I didn't realize it could affect me that much like an actually really like a computer could attack you yeah I just didn't I yeah it was crazy and I think I was like right I need to re what's the word re-collaborate re-collaborate yeah and I was like I don't need to live on this for now and it's been a journey but it's been actually a really like good journey to this point because I now like built a really great relationship with it social media is one of those things I think is actually amazing it allows you to connect with your fans and connect with people like share your creativity how you want to like be authentic be real but also like keep something for yourself and I think that's what I do love about it is that that side and I think I've got to that point where it's like I give as much as I feel comfortable with and I have a team that support me massively with it all and help me control it because I'm not amazing at it but it's all led by me you know I'll never nothing ever goes out without me or approved or what have you but I've built a relationship with it like where I'm like cool if I need to come off it I can come off it yeah if I want to be on it I'm on it and I think that's actually how everyone should be because it can be like life controlling and I think that's why I remove myself to like have a moment to be like right let me live life let me do me let me like write this album let me be like wholesomely like authentic and real and live in the moment and then when i'm ready i'll be back and i got there yeah so good and that's empowering to go i can just step away if this isn't like feeling good to me yeah if you're not feeling good about it why be on it i think it's we we feel it's such a given that certainly people in your position that you should be on social media telling us everything and it's like actually you're in control of what you put out there and when and if you feel happy about that I mean it is how did because I've certainly been there yeah how did it affect you getting bombarded on social media it's a shitty feeling I personally was in a dark dark space other other shit going this is years and years ago and other stuff going on but I was totally like rock bottom it wasn't just that but I had a lot of stuff going on that just compounded it and I I think you do I certainly lost a sense of who I was what my skill set was because it's like I wouldn't be doing this if I didn't know how to do it so I can't conflate what I know with what other people are saying about me I've got to stay strong with no wait a minute I've been doing this for years I know what I'm doing and finding that confidence again but like you say it batters you it absolutely batters you do you know the way you just described how you were I think that was it it was that I was like I think when it all happened like you say it wasn't just that I mean massively that moment was like hell no I don't I couldn't even but then it was like the components of everything else around it like the lack of support the lack of so many different things and then the like feeling of like yeah like who am I what am I doing why is it why has this happened why has that happened why am I now looking at like so many different points in my life that felt so um what is the word like out of control and it was like and there was no one there bar actually like I'll never forget actually this day that I woke up because um look I'll talk about it basically I did a podcast and um it just something came out unapproved and I woke up in the morning and like all my kind of like the community was messaging me like my friends and like someone really close to me Glyn from Sink to Pink who I mean has been a friend for years I had these messages like are you alright and all these things and I was thinking what do you mean am I alright like I didn't understand what the hell was going on I woke up to just a bombard of like love horrific but it's also horrific horrific because I was like what's happened I was like yeah I'm great like what's going on Oh, my gosh.

33:47And then I opened my socials and I was like, oh, gosh. And I remember lying in bed and being like. The market's uncertain. Revenue's tied and hiring on hold. That's why results driven companies are using Upwork to keep work moving. Go to Upwork.com today and start hiring proven freelance talent fast. No bulky overhead. No rigid long-term contracts. Just the right expert right when you need them. Work smarter and faster with Upwork. Go to Upwork.com now and find your freelance expert. That's U-P-W-O-R-K.com. Post a job for free and get started today. Hi, this is Knox from the Popcast with Knox and Jamie.

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35:34oh my gosh and like you're helpless it's like it's out there there's no going back and also it's like there's no way you can explain yourself in those moments because actually there's nothing to say and I've learned this only now where I'm like at that point in time there was nothing I could say I'm not going to jump on and be like no no no no because you know what at that point it's like I actually I remember speaking to Glyn and um and just going just teach me how how have I offended so many people just I just need to learn because I'm not gonna like act I don't want to speak I don't do anything until I actually learn my like position and um and he was like cool I got you obviously he had a complete meltdown and the people that actually saved me in that whole thing were my two best mates so like Jolene and Janae I just remember the door going at like eight o 'clock clock in the morning swear down and i opened the door and they were both there like and i was like i'm done like i genuinely on that day i think i was already going through it and i was like i quit i quit everything i was like at this point in time i think it got to the afternoon and i was like i'm done with everything i was like i absolutely can't do this anymore i was like this is how life is going to be i don't want to be doing this as my job i don't want to be in this i don't want to work i just couldn't deal it's like the end of everything that's what it felt like yeah and it It's just like, and that didn't go away quickly.

37:01I think it's like, for me, to be like, I don't ever want to do music again. I don't ever want to, you know, like to feel that. And I'm sure like you get it where you're like, I don't know who the hell. Mate, I was there. I don't do TV still now. I can't do it. And I think you get there. Like I might get there and go, oh, I'd quite like to go back and do this and that. But I think you just go, I know what my limits are now. And I know where I feel comfortable with myself and where I don't. I know. I think it's just, do you know what? It's like I look back and I think, oh, my gosh, moments happen in life.

37:35And I'm like, when I think of like those three years of like 2021 and 22, I'm like, whoa, soccer punch after soccer punch. And I'm like, but I don't look at it and I don't want any pity or like I never want people to feel sorry for me because, look, people go through shit. It just like it humbles you, though. And I think it really kind of makes, like, I feel like a much more kind of loving human being. Like, I love everyone. Like, everyone I see, you know, it's mad. Like, I never, ever, ever want to make anyone feel anything other than loved or feel supported or feel like, hi, you're right. That doesn't cost anything to just be nice.

38:13I think, like, that's one thing in my life. I'm just like, just be you and be nice. Yeah. You know? But it's, you know, not to be reductive about how much work it's taken you to get to that place. But that's a really wonderful outcome of some shitty times. Because you do walk around and you're like, I hate everyone. I think you start to lose trust and you start to just feel like, what's the point in doing any of this anymore? I've been there. Like, I totally hear everything you're saying. I've been there. It's mad, isn't it? I'm done. I don't want to do this. I'm just going to go and try and find another career route or something.

38:50I don't know. I was totally all over the gaff. But I think, you know, you work out the bits that you feel like you are capable of doing and it changes your mindset and you work out a way to deal with it. But it's hard. Yeah. It's really hard. And I think for me, like, the one thing I generally think my therapist saved me is mad because therapy is one of those things that I've definitely dabbled in my life. but at the point of which I entered that room and met my therapist I'm like I actually don't know yeah it's crazy isn't it because I look back and like coming into this record I think for me the most important thing is that everyone understands how authentic it is because I think it's easy to say like I wrote this song and I felt this way or like that's not how it is it's like look for me I'm not the best at expressing my emotions but when I go in a room with people I feel safe with the best way in which I do express is when I write and I think and when I sing and when I feel like I can just talk to a microphone rather than a human being um because I don't like feeling like that's been my journey um but it's like that's why I'm like so this album for me like and obviously why I've called it just because it's like it really wholesomely is that and it's like it's been that journey of like right like I mean all these things that have gone on and listen not all of it's negative do you know what I mean like there's so much positive like the new team like the way that I've just been allowed to be me on this process it's like Jess man who do you want to work with go do you go figure it out like come back to us and then sitting in a room with people and they're like right this is amazing let's collaborate and let's just like make it even better here's my advice and signing a deal with two women who are so like head of their game and like at the head of the label and it's like surrounded actually by so many strong women like that I think is also such a like amazing part of my journey so what part of you felt suppressed or caged prior to this what's what sort of liberation have you experienced here you're like this is what I couldn't do before this is what I couldn't say before I think for me what it was is that I think I came into it young I suppose like youngish well I was young yeah I I was in my early 20s.

41:04Yeah, do you know what? I was actually, I looked back at the first live lounge you did with me. Yeah, yeah. It was 2014. There you go, 10 years. With Clean Bandit. There you go. You did a cover of Jungle Busy Earning, which was so good. I'd forgotten how good it was. And I remember everyone was like, wow, what's this voice? Oh, my God. Like, it was a real, it was a beautiful moment having you on. Oh, my God, that's 10 years. Yeah. See what I'm saying? That's crazy. I think the parts I was holding back I think I wasn't quite sure if I'm honest but I know that it's that okay how do I put it this industry is crazy right and I think when you sign a deal and you have success and it's like all go and everyone's just on that wave it's like stick to what you know stick to what's working and I think for me and especially like my best mate I've actually worked with since I mean we've been mates since I was 11 and she's my creative director we're such like I mean she's a visionary like she's she like reads my mind she sees what I wish I could see and it's amazing and I think it's that the industry and the pop industry there's definitely restrictions of like sometimes I think of where you can go with it and I think at times it's like you get these ideas and you want to execute them but then it's kind of like not everyone understands it but I've learned that that's all right actually because not everyone has that capacity to see it because they don't know that that's, I don't know, like they've not done it before so that it doesn't feel safe to them.

42:31But I think for me what I've learned is like not being safe is the best freaking thing in the world. Actually like taking risks is what actually has like made me so freaking like inspired and excited and actually done the best work, like written the best songs. Because no one's told me that they want something from me. They've said go and do you and then let's go back in on it and then let's figure it out. because like the most important thing is that you're happy not me me me because it's not about anyone else and not that's not again being selfish it's like this is your album and this is your story so go tell your story and then there's like then let's go in on it whereas before I don't think it was so much of go tell your story and be free to be you it was a lot of like insecurities around me and a lot of like like doubt which then makes me feel doubtful so then there's like this where are we going but like are you sure but they're not sure but they're like oh no we've got to stick to what's right it's like like you don't trust yeah you don't trust yourself to just break boundaries like ever since I stepped on the scene I feel like I've knocked down doors and I feel like what I've done has never been like the norm why would I continue to then change my ways and stick in a cardboard box so like that's kind of like a lot of what I've learned I'm like knock down them doors yes yeah i think the audience feel it as well because if they think you're just popping out a two-minute pop song that's gonna do well on radio they're like oh well whereas if they're feeling something that's it like if you all the people you listed earlier like prince for example who did not play by the books ever i mean i went and saw him at the round house i don't know how many years ago probably over 10 years ago he didn't play a single hit Not one.

44:15And everyone was like, play Raspberry Beret. No, mate, I'm doing a jazz set. Thanks very much. He's so funny. I don't know, I love it. But it was so cool because that gig will stay in my mind forever because it was so unexpected. So it's the harder route, but it's the better route. Yeah, I think it's just that for me, like when I listen to music, it's all about feeling. You know, be that like I want to have fun or cry or whatever it is. And I think for me, it's like if my song can make you feel something and you can like take something away from it, from the message, from the feeling that you've got in your body or your mind or whatever it is, I've done my job.

44:49Because like that to me is like the best gift of anything. Because like when I listen to records, like I know when I listen to like Purple Rain, for example, talking about Prince, right? I just know what mood I have to be in. Because if I'm listening to that record, I know that I need to just immerse myself in a moment. And then it's like even Beyonce just released that Texas Hold 'em, right? I'm like, I needed this. I needed this feeling. I don't know what, I couldn't even explain it to you, but I played it on my people because I needed that feeling. And it's not like expected. It's like a feeling of like, oh, it's just raw, like country record.

45:24I love it. Prince Purple Rain, I need to be looking out of a window having a cry. You know. But in a really good, healthy way. Like I'm getting it all out. I need a minute, yeah. Yeah, I need a little Prince Purple Rain minute. Exactly. I love that. You're also in a really happy, healthy relationship. Do you think you had to get happy and healthy to be in that or it got you there? That's a good question. Do you know what? It's a really interesting journey, I think, because I feel like people say to you, don't they? You can't find that feeling unless you're happy in yourself, right? And I think for me, it has been a crazy journey of relationships.

46:04And I think the work that I've done on myself has actually settled me inside. And I think it's allowed me to, yeah, enter a relationship where I feel like very kind of comfortable and I'm allowed to like, and I'm just me, but I'm actually like unapologetically me. And like that goes for work, for like my, even my relationship with my family, with everything. I think every relationship around me has been like got better because of the relationship with myself. And it has allowed me to, yeah, be just like really happy in a new relationship. but it's mad to get there I think for me as well because I think love is a really scary subject in all walks of life and I think when you've been through trauma and you've been through a lot in your life I think love is the one thing that you well for me anyway it's that one thing that I keep at a distance so I'm like yeah it's a nice thing to be able to embrace someone and a relationship that feels really genuinely good.

47:00Does it help that Alex is in the public eye that you can actually you get that side of each other's life and the expectation that comes with that? Do you know what? It's something I'm getting used to. It's like, you know, for me, like I've always made a conscious decision in my life, right? When I started my career, I guess it's a conscious decision, but it's like the thing I love is that I love doing my job and like stepping out there. But then what I do love is that I've managed somehow to keep my personal life to myself because it's so important. You get to go home and that's yours. Yeah. And no one has access to that.

47:40And that's something that is like you keep close to your heart. And I think that's something that I've actually enjoyed. And like still even now, even though we're both like in this public space, it's like, but what we have, that's ours. Yeah. And it's actually like, I feel like that's something I will always do because people want so much from you in every, you know, sense of the word. And I think what is beautiful is that you both feel that way and you both got that and that's something you're going to keep for yourself. And like, it's up to you, isn't it? Like I was reading this book, Untamed by...

48:15Glennon Doyle. Yeah, have you read it? Yeah, amazing. She's been on here. Has she been on here? What a great chat. Did you? I love her. I love her no but actually this book this book is amazing the cheater analogy at the start I know do you know like since reading that book I'm like you know what it has like like trust right I love the thing she wrote about trust and it was it's up to you who you trust it is not up to anyone else if you want to say like what did she say oh I love the way she wrote it but basically it was just like your trust is yours and if you want to talk about something thing you talk about and if you don't and that's for no one to judge you no but like giving your trust to someone that's your present i love that it's like me trusting you is my presence so if you don't allow me to feel that way you don't get it and that's like i love that it's so good she's really good with like boundaries but equally like we've just talked about knocking down doors and going i don't care that you're trying to put me in this box or make me something i am not that i'm going to do what I want to do like just totally untamed it's such a clever clever book isn't it and like the way she just talks like the way she's taught her like look I don't have kids but I'd love to if I when I have children like teaching the like the way that she's obviously been through a lot right and then she gets to that point where she's like I'm actually going to leave this marriage and show my kids actually what they should do and that's be brave and being brave is putting yourself first this may be tough and like may break you whatever but I'm breaking you to show you that you shouldn't be boxed in because so much of like being a woman I do believe is that we abide by so many rules because we feel like we have to because it's such an ancient freaking rule and it's like but why like if I don't want to be in that relationship or if I don't want to be in that work or if I don't want to do this I'm entitled to say no and just come a woman or because I'm like seen as like a weak, like I'm not weak.

50:15I'm actually really strong and it's actually empowering. Like all these decisions, like I know I've made, have made me feel so much more empowered. And like she, like, I don't know, the way she talks about it, I was like, yeah. She's such a good writer. I can't. She's so amazing. I love her. But I think, remembering back to the podcast episode, I think I was like quite sycophantic for about the first five minutes because I was just like, I love you. I love you so much. And it's amazing. She's amazing. Yeah. You like, I live by it. I think it stays with you. Yeah. Not many books do that. It's so clever.

50:45It's so clever. I'm so glad you read it as well because I think it's, if you're on any kind of hate the word but I'm going to use it journey and you're like discovering new things about yourself and you're working through like what you want and what you don't want, it's such a perfect book to read at that time. It is, isn't it? It's so good. And it's like you finish that book and there's like a, well, for me it was like an affirmation of like, yeah, you know what? I'm not on the wrong road. I'm all right, you know? Yeah. Because what she's been through, that's what I mean. It's like you never know what someone's been through, so just be kind, isn't it?

51:16And it's just like keep it moving. And you are enough. Yeah. It's the message. Yeah. Oh, Jess, what a joy to talk to you today. My pleasure. I've so loved catching up with you. I'm so happy that you're doing so many brilliant things and you're feeling good and you've made all these brilliant decisions. The album is amazing and I love enough. I just think it's such an important song for women to hear. I think it is. It really is. And thank you. Thank you for being on the podcast. Thanks for having me. Oh, Jess, I love that chat so much. It felt incredibly raw and real and vulnerable. So just thank you for being so thoughtful and really open.

51:56Do you know what? You never know if you're going to get a properly honest interview. I don't like to call it an interview. It's a chat at the end of the day, but you don't really know where you're going with the chat sometimes. But Jess was so open hearted and I think talked about some pretty difficult things and had some really honest self reflection. And also, I think it's really good to look at those moments where we get things a bit wrong and to own it. And Jess is properly doing that. And not many people do. So like massive hats off to Jess for that. Jess's new album, Jess, is out on April the 26th.

52:33If you haven't already listened to the Glennon Doyle episode of Happy Place, please do. It's really lovely. And if you get as excited about connecting over books as Jess and I did with Glennon's, come and join us over on the Happy Place Book Club. We're on Instagram at happyplacebookclub. We're on there as happyplace2 at happyplaceofficial, so come have a chat. Massive thanks again to Jess, to the producer Anushka Tate at Happy Place Studios, and to you. Go on, fuck up a bit, it's all okay.

53:11We'll see you next time.

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