Jesse Tyler Ferguson: “If things don’t scare you, what’s the point?” Facing fear head-on

0:01Hello, I'm Fern Cotton and this is Happy Place, the show that explores the little joys in life. Today I'm chatting to Jesse Tyler Ferguson. I think if things don't scare you, like what's the point? If you're feeling like I got this, it's not going to challenge you in a way it's not going to make you grow. So I always feel like fear is a great sign that it's meant to be done. Yeah, I've been really looking forward to this chat with Jesse because as I told him during our little sit down, I first watched Modern Family with my stepchildren, and I'm now watching it again with my daughter. He's obviously a brilliant actor, and he came into the Happy Play Studios fresh off the back of the previews for his new play, True, in which he plays the author Truman Capote.

0:43And we talked about so many things. We talked about our shared love of theatre. Also, the fear that you have when you go on stage and how you tackle that. A little bit about people pleasing. Also, his friendship with Taylor Swift. Had to bring that up. Modern Family, because obviously it blew up hugely here in the UK. Also, Jesse's AD house tour, which I've massively stalked online, as well as his conversations with lots of brilliant people and his own podcast, one of my favourites being the chat he had with Jill Biden.

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4:43Jesse, how are you? I'm good. Good. I'm so happy that you're back in the UK. I mean, you've been here a lot. I have been, actually. The past few years, I feel like I spend a good chunk of my time here. Yeah, it's been nice. Because last time you were doing Jesus Christ Superstar. That's right. A few months ago during your ridiculously hot summer. So hot. I know. Crazy. I'm accepting all apologies. I'm accepting. People are still apologizing for that summer. Brits love to apologize. We apologize normally because it's pitting with rain. So with the sun, we're like, look at us. Aren't we cool? Yeah.

5:19I can't believe it. It was brutal. Yeah. But I was here for six weeks with my kids. My kids came with me. We were just talking before we started about traveling with kids. And they did come with me on that one. And then, yeah, the year before that, I did spend some time at the National Theater. So, yeah. so we've got some good theaters here we're very oh yeah as you do in new york i mean these are the two spots you want to be in theater it's broadway it's the west end totally and the west end was something i always wanted to do so when the opportunity came for me to do here we are a few uh summers ago i immediately leapt at the opportunity and then i kind of thought that that would be it and then i was just i'm shocked that i keep being asked back you're the best that's why I know.

6:03And you were with lovely Sam Ryder doing Jesus Christ. Oh, my God. Do you know him? Have you met him? I adore him. Well, not sat in this seat, but he's done this podcast. And I am obsessed with him. I actually saw him not long ago, and this makes me sound like an absolute wanker, at Buckingham Palace. We were both at some royal thing for the king. Great. And I just beelined for him because I knew I'd get a massive hug and have a really great chat. He's the best. Totally. He has such great energy. I mean, the moment I met him in rehearsal, he had already been rehearsing for five weeks with the full company.

6:36I came in very late because I just had one tiny little song to do in the show. So they plugged me in last minute. And he was the first person to give me the biggest hug. And he just really, I mean, he set the tone for the entire company. It's a great company of people, the cast of Jesus Car Superstar. But it really does trickle down from the top. And I told Sam, I was like, for someone who's never done theater and is making their theatrical debut, you are really taking the reins and doing all the things you should be doing to create the vibe of a good company. And he doesn't know. I don't think he knows that that's happening.

7:10That's just his good heart. Exactly. And that voice. I mean, well, that just goes without saying. I mean, that's ridiculous. Ridiculous. I mean, it's insane. And I don't know how he has the stamina to do it. And it was interesting watching him sort of learn how to negotiate that, even in the three weeks that I spent with him. And he's coming to my opening of my play with his girlfriend this weekend. So I'm so excited to see him. And I'm excited that they're also going to be remounting the show at the Drury Lane. I'm doing basically a play for Jesus Christ Superstar. Get your tickets now. But I get to see it.

7:46I was in it and I didn't get to see it. So I'm so excited. Yeah. It's really interesting how one person, usually I'm imagining on a TV show or theater, how that one person can sort of set the tone for a whole cast or company. I think it really rings true. I've certainly done TV shows where one person creates that flavor and tone and there's not much movement once it's been set. Have you been on sets or in a theater where it's just been bad vibes? I've been so lucky, honestly. I've heard stories from friends of mine who have had really bad experiences and I'm racking my brain trying to think of if it went really off the rails for me and I don't think it has.

8:27That's good. And I kind of listen I think I'm the good luck charm. I think I bring great You're setting the tone. I think I'm the tone setter. You are. That's what I'm getting to. I think it's me. It's so good. And true your show you're in at the moment that's good vibes. That's good vibes. It's good vibes. It's also I mean it's technically a one person show. we have added another character. So we talk about setting the tone, you know, when it's just me and one other person. But yeah, it's great vibes. And throughout like, you know, the director and the designers here in London, because all the whole crew and team here in London is completely new to us.

9:02We did this show in New York, but it was with a whole other group of people. So the director and myself and Charlotte, who's on stage with me, are the only three that did it in New York. So this whole group of people that have joined us here in London are just so incredible. And everyone at the Mignet Chocolate Factory has just been so wonderful and supportive. And yeah, it's really, it's been elevated in a way that I didn't think it could be from New York, which is really exciting. Wow, I love that. You're doing previews at the moment. I've always imagined stepping out on stage during a preview week when you know you've got, whether it's critics coming along or people that are diehard theater fans, that that would create a bit of tension or nerves?

9:41Correct. it does yeah it really does um you know you know that that there's like four days before you technically open there's going to be people with notepads in in the room oh that is sickening it's crazy the thing about theater is like you really do have a separation where you you don't see it yeah you know that they're out there but you don't see it however with this show that i'm doing it's very environmental i sit with the audience as close as i'm sitting to you now closer even Why? The play takes place in Truman Capote's living room. Yeah. So you walk into the space and you're in what just looks like a gorgeous living room.

10:20And the audience sits on couches. They sit at tables. They sit in the chairs that are around the corner. I mean, there's, I think, 160 seats in there. So, you know, but some of the seats are like my furniture. Wow. And I come in and then I do the play amongst you. And sometimes I move all over the room. I get drinks. I put on records. I change my clothes. I sit down. I tell stories. I read books. And it's all part of the show. And so I'm very close to the audience. So when I was in previews in New York, I would sit down and there would literally be someone like with a notepad, like reviewing my performance.

10:56That's awful. Well, this is the worst. This can't get any worse. That's horrendous. Yeah. I mean, how do you deal with those nerves? Because sometimes I did a new TV show this year. And I knew I was the new person on set. So I shit myself. Yes. But the week before, the nerves turned to dread. I was like, I don't even want to go. I don't want to do it. And of course, it was more than lovely. I actually had the best time ever, which has served as proof that often the things I dread the most are the things I love the most. But that feeling beforehand is very all-consuming. What do you do to mitigate it?

11:34Well, first of all, I feel like fear, what you're talking about, that gut feeling of like, oh, my God, I got to get out of this is just a sign that you should be doing it. Yes. I think if things don't scare you, like what's the point? If you're feeling like I got this, it's not going to challenge you in a way it's not going to make you grow. So I always feel like fear is a great sign that it's meant to be done. Yeah. And I tackle fear head on when I feel that feeling. I say, okay, that's exciting for me then. that being said, you have to learn how to work through that fear. And that's the hard part.

12:09And I think a lot of that just comes with experience and like confidence and the fact that you know what you're doing. I mean, I'm sure you walked into the side, you're like, I know I should be here. Yes. I had to get the first bit out of the way and then I was good. Yeah. It's all about like exactly what you just said, like just kind of taking the leap, doing it. And then you're like, okay, like literally jumping in the pool and be like, okay, that was a shockingly cold pool, but I'm in now and it feels okay. Yeah. It's all I think that's all part of being an artist in any way and like putting yourself out there.

12:39It's like you have to you have to challenge yourself and you have to do things that are scary and it should shock your system and it should feel. off and it should feel uncomfortable and that's just how we expand i mean so i think for me and specifically specifically when talking about you know critics like that that's another whole other level because it really does boil down to just me knowing i'm i'm good enough and i'm i'm supposed to be there um and that i'm not gonna please everyone that's the other thing that's so hard for me to remember and i'm still working through that is i'm such a people pleaser and i just want everyone to love me and i i have to remember that especially in with any art but like there are there are two people that can look at something and one person it could be changing their life and like this moment is like absolutely going to dictate how the rest of their life goes or it's going to change the course of their life that certainly happened for me as i watched people on stage and then sitting right next to that person is someone who fucking hates it so much it's the one and it's the same thing you're offering the same thing yes and you can't worry about it you can't worry about the life you might be changing you can't worry about the um the person who you're making miserable you just have to do what you're doing yes and it's hard i'm still i'm not good at it i'm gonna say that right now i'm not good at it i'm not good at letting that go but it's what I know I have to do.

14:10I'm exactly the same. And I think you've totally nailed it by saying you actually can't take either end of the spectrum seriously. The praise, the adulation that you may get at the end, you're taking a bow on stage versus the opposite of that, which none of us want to really look at. But it is, it's a tricky thing when your job is public facing and you do, you know, you're open to constant feedback, whether it's social media or in a more niche way being on stage at the moment. And if you were to dare to look online or newspaper reviews, not that any of us should, you just, you know, we should just block it out.

14:44But it does, it does hurt when you know people don't like what they're seeing or, or it's a personal attack on you. It feels horrible, but looking at the other side of that, the sort of seeking validation. And I think about this a lot, like, why have I chosen this career where I am putting myself out that the whole time and how much of me in my mid 40s is still seeking strangers to go you're doing okay you're all right it's it's almost like less about the negative and like why am I still sort of I must be subconsciously seeking that still do you do you think there's a bit of you that's doing that I think we all we all just naturally seek validation I mean when we were in school we would turn in our homework and there'd be a grade on it you know it's like and that would that meant something to us.

15:31So we're sort of wired that way to like be validated. So I think, you know, it's a tricky thing because I don't want to live a life seeking validation, but at the same time, like that there is an endorphin that like is, is met that, that, that when you, when someone validates you, um, I don't know. I mean, I, I, it's, it's tricky. I wish it didn't mean so much, you know I really do me too yeah I mean if you look at the character you're playing currently Truman Capote he was I guess in a sort of Andy Warhol way fascinated with fame and very attracted to it what's your relationship with it how do you view it's changed a lot since you started out as well what fame is and what it means right right it's never what you expect it to be I will say that like I mean I think we all fantasize about like oh what it would like to be famous whether it's good or bad you know like oh i would hate that or i would love that like i it's it's nothing like i fantasized it being um i have a i think like most people have sort of like love hate relationship with my um notoriety and my loss of anonymity i think there are certainly obviously perks to it but there are things that you you sacrifice that are really hard to let go of and for you know it and it depends on the the type of person i'm a person who really loves their privacy and anonymity and like i don't have the ability to really just like go shopping in a mall and and you know just like do window shopping without you know people looking at me in a certain way and I'm just very very aware of it now and that's something that uh I have just had to learn to cope with like I can tell when someone like 40 feet away is like getting excited about clocking me their stage whispering yeah it's like I have like this supersonic hearing I can hear everything I'm like I want to say I hear you I know what's going on and I have done that before when people are like, it goes on for too long.

17:47I was like, I know it's happening. And I try and like make light of the situation. I feel like I want people, if they are going to have an interaction with me for it to be pleasant. Yes. And I also acknowledge the fact that it's such a blessing when your work means something to someone. You know, my mom was a nurse and my dad was a microbiologist. And I sometimes wish that they were able to be met with praise about their careers in the way that I met with praise about my career because they deserved it just as much. They were doing great work. And it really does feel nice when people come up to me and say, you know, your work means something to me.

18:34And I think that that's something I treasure and it never gets old. People always say, you probably hear this all the time. like it really honestly does not ever get yeah get old I mean I hear the same thing over and over and it does feel nice to know that something I did impacted someone's life in that way and I do wish that other people could have that feeling it's lovely it is so lovely and also I think sometimes especially when it's not necessarily strangers but people actually in your life when when you're good at doing something often people think I don't need to tell them they're good they know they're good they're on a west end stage or whatever so when it's a friend you're like oh my god that that truly is so lovely to hear that so lovely it's interesting that you just said that because i sometimes when i meet people who i admire greatly i think oh i shouldn't say anything it's weird and like and then i think well i never i mean i'm always happy to hear that someone likes what i do so i i have been brave and i've gone up to people and i went to go see josh josh show connor and um golden boy and uh and he was standing there i was i was on press night and he was with people and i was like i'm not gonna bother him i was like what if he sees me and like maybe he's a fan of modern family like and like he's bummed out if i didn't say something and i really loved his performance and i've been a fan of his for a long time so i was like i'm just gonna on my way out say something and I'm so glad I did and you could tell I could tell by the way he interacted with me that he did see me and he did know who I was and I felt all I said was you did remarkable work and you should be so proud and that was it that was it and I'm so glad I did and I meant it and I'm happy that I was able to have that exchange with him but I was like I don't know why I was so nervous to do that yeah well it's not you have to cross this threshold of awkwardness to kind of i've done that i live quite near david attenborough and i've never gone over i'm like i would never dare disturb his peace there's no way but apparently wants to go i've watched every one of your shows and you're just changing the world and you're amazing you're a hundred oh my god well if you saw him like puttering around the neighborhood which you wouldn't okay completely i just look away i'm like i'm not even gonna look at him i can't it's too it's too terrifying he's he's too revered but i think it is lovely when when it's not just kind of a selfie when it's people actually saying that's right something kind and that your work's meaningful that's always going to be a gorgeous thing right and i also don't i don't get super it's it is nice when there's an interaction that that's all it is and they just wanted to say something i do love that um and i i don't always get upset when the selfie happens afterwards like i it's sometimes when it's just they come up and it's like can i have a selfie and that's all it is and they basically barely even look at me they take a picture capture my image and then they're gone that was like i don't even know if we ever made we ever made eye contact that that's always a little awkward and rough um i'm friendly with taylor swift and i was backstage with her with my i brought my niece to one of her shows and um and i know my niece wanted a photo so badly but she was not going to ask and i certainly wasn't going to ask if they could take a picture and we were having this really lovely interaction and taylor goes should we take an epic selfie together and Amanda's like yes and she so she took the reins and like offered it because she knew she knows that's what she knows she knows that's what they want of course and she was in that mode where she was backstage she was in work mode like this is her interaction with her fans and you know I mean she probably wouldn't do that if she just were walking down the street like walking down the sidewalk saying should we all take up ourselves I mean but you know she was in that moment so I was I took a note from her I was like well that is that's so classy she's so classy and she's so kind i've interviewed her a couple of times and i've just from the minute she's walked in the door just thought what a decent human being she's a good egg that one she is she's got she was raised well her parents are incredible she's got a good family yeah yeah no she's the real deal

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26:52I mean, obviously, your fame went global with Modern Family. Yeah. And that's a different thing when you're not even safe to come to the UK. and to walk around, you know, you're going to be recognized pretty much wherever you go. Was that initially a shock to the system to kind of deal with? Yeah, the world notoriety is a new thing. I mean, and it's not everywhere, but there are places where I go, I'm like, oh, I had no idea that the show was a thing here. And it is. It's interesting because when I first came to the UK to do Press for Modern Family, we weren't super popular. I mean, it had been on for a few seasons, and I think it was something you had to sort of find still.

27:35Now it's become this thing that everyone knows, or a lot of people know. I won't say everyone. But it's a different level. And so, you know, I was with Charlotte, my co-star, and true, and she's a New Yorker. And we're good friends. We've known each other for a while. And we were seeing some theater on our off night a few nights ago, and I was getting stopped a lot. And she's like, I just forget that you're famous. and it's she's like i just didn't realize it was such a global thing like we're in the uk and like it's maybe worse here than it is in the states i was like i know it's it's it's wild yeah and um you know i remember being in the sistine chapel and i was doing a tour of my with my family and we were all just we were we were tourists we were looking at the same thing that everyone else was there to look at we're all looking at the ceiling there were people taking photos of me and i was like look up yeah there's michael angelo's hands this is way more interesting um but it was wild i got told off in the sistine chapel do would you were you were talking i was talking so i didn't i was excited you were told silencio the guys are mean in there yeah they are mean they don't joke around i was like we're in a holy place surely you can be a bit holier about this interaction I got taken down.

28:53This guy was, he went nuts at me. I was talking and you're not meant to take pictures. And I was like, if I just did a sneaky without the flash, because I respect the artwork, I'm a big art fan, but I really want a picture of the Sistine Chapel ceiling. And he saw me and it went down. They got equalized. Like a sack of shit. It went down real bad. It was really horrible. Scary man. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you feel like shit. I felt like I was four. I was like a four-year-old child. I was like, oh my God, I want to go and cry outside. It was so bad. but what a place what a place i know truly modern family clearly spoke to a lot of people i remember watching it i've watched the whole thing twice because i watched it with my stepkids a million years ago and now my daughter and i are watching it together and it for every generation and every well seemingly nation that loved it it captured our hearts and it's a cozy show it's something that makes you feel wholesome and like there are good eggs out there in the world and the chemistry between all of you, especially you and your on-screen partner, Eric.

29:52It's just such a beautiful, natural thing to watch all of you get on. Did you have any idea when you started that you were creating that sort of magic? I knew the script was very special just from the get-go. I was like, oh, the minute I read it, even before I had auditioned for it, I was like, well, this is something different. You know, when the writing's that good, you think, well at least this has a shot of getting made you know i've been in things and i'm like i don't know about this one but this one i was like well this is very very good whoever gets this is gonna be very lucky and then it happened to be me um and then you know when you're shooting it it felt like i was like well it's going well it seems to be going well i don't know how it's all going to cut together but it seems special and interesting the chemistry between all of us is great we all really like each other and then you know you see it cut together like well that turned out well and you're like, well, I hope the network supports it properly and I hope that other people like it.

30:50Am I in a bubble? Am I in a crazy bubble? So I showed it to some friends and they're like, well, this is pretty good. There's that moment where you're like, can I show you my pilot? And people are like, oh my God, okay, put it in. This was back when I had DVDs gathered around the TV. And so there's all these steps that have to happen for it to be good, but I feel like every step of the way I was like, that went well, that went well, that went well. and um and then uh when when they the network picked it up they do this thing in uh in new york i don't know if they do it here called up fronts where they basically each network announces the full season of their new their new slate and the returning shows and every network i don't even know if they do this anymore because now it sort of seems like a thing of the past uh but they like you know they'll go to carnegie hall and all the advertisers will go there and it's basically the network rolling out their season and they show clips of all the shows and they decided to show the entire pilot of modern family which is not it's very risky because they have all these people sort of trapped in a room the reporters they're tired they've been doing you know junkets all day to make them sit there and watch 22 minutes of the same of one thing it's just it's risky and it went over so well I guess I wasn't in the room but I heard that it was like unlike anything in the history of Upfronts where this entire theater full of people a Carnegie Hall full of people were just like laughing at this pilot and everyone knew I think at that point that it was gonna be a huge thing and I got reports back like they showed the entire pilot Upfronts and like it just went over so well.

32:31And so we kind of went into the season thinking, okay, well, it's this thing. But it does happen slowly. I mean, people still discovered it. And I think that was great. But right out of the gate, it was the show that won the Emmy Award that year. And then for the next four years after that, we won five in a row, which was wild. And then there's the fifth season when you win that the fifth Emmy Award there's like a collective groan in the audience you're like oh the tables have turned like we're not the kids that are like fun to have around anymore they're like oh my god make room for someone else and it does shift and it is that that that wild thing like well god I mean we were the life of the party and like everyone was so excited so I remember walking into a party and Victoria Beckham and David Beckham like gasped when they met me And she was like, David, David.

33:23And I was like, oh, my God. And I met them and they were so lovely and they were so excited to meet me. And I was like, this is crazy. Yes. And then, you know, then after like five years, it's just like on to the next thing. It's wild. When you have a moment like you're at the Emmys and you're winning or when you won your Tony Award, which as far as theater goes, it doesn't get any bigger than that. Well, no, that's the best. Do you let that land? are you good at going yeah yeah i did good there i'm not good at it in the moment i will say that even with the tony award i i remember i i won the tony award i one of the first people i saw was my publicist and i was just sort of like white and she was so excited for me and she's like why aren't you more excited i was like i swear to god i am i just don't know how to process this and then you're thrown into interviews and like they're like throw it up in the air like jump screaming i was like i can't do any of that that doesn't feel organic like i was just like all the photos just me like like a nerd like really awkward almost like i don't know if i deserve this or not but i afterwards after sort of the dust settles i'm sort of able to be proud of those moments yeah but it's hard in the moment for me i guess also there's an element of okay what's next like you can't sit in that and go i've smashed it i've nailed it especially Especially in the industry you're in.

34:45Yeah. It's also unknown and risky. Sure. And you know that going into it, you know, you grew up thinking, I want to be an actor, but, and maybe I guess youth and naivety allows you to then go, I'm just going to throw myself into it. But there are no guarantees. Have you always been able to keep quite focused amongst having that sort of unpredictability? Yeah, I mean, I know that the uncertainty is part of just the nature of the business. But I mean, again, it circles back to what we're talking about earlier. It's just like having faith in yourself and knowing that you're good enough and you can only do you to the best of your ability.

35:29and you want to find the things that really complement what you can do.

35:39And that's the hard part, though, because, you know, there are moments where it's just like it can get really quiet. And, you know, I did a show for 11 seasons, and that was like a full-time job. I know people who haven't had full-time jobs that have lasted that long. Yeah. Like in, like, you know, other industries. and you know I met my husband when we were when I was just starting Modern Family and so when he our whole career I had this like full-time job and so when the 11 seasons ended and I was unemployed I was like okay so now you're gonna see what it's like to actually be married to an actor because like the last 11 years was was a not a reality that's not normal and it was an an adjustment for him.

36:24Yeah. You know, I watched him like be nervous about like, oh God, like, when are you going to get another job? Is our family going to be okay? And, you know, I was like, I can't worry about that. I can't take on that stress because I have to know that I'm going to be okay. And there's going to be opportunity. And sometimes I have to create that opportunity, but that's going to take time and it's, it's all going to be okay. I mean, there's just no point and like stressing about something I have no control over. No. I mean, what did your parents think knowing you were going into that? It sounds like they had quite some sensible jobs.

36:59They did. You were like, I want to be an actor. Yeah. I mean, they knew from a very early age that that was something I was really passionate about. And I really am so lucky that they were supportive of that passion because it's not a career path that has any sort of certainty. I mean, there are many career paths that don't have certainty, but that is high up on the list. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they were fine with it. They loved that I was pursuing something that I loved. I think that they were certainly relieved when I started getting good work. And, you know, they've been endlessly proud of all of my achievements.

37:35But I think that I'm sure – being a parent now myself, I can imagine that they were like, oh, God. They were having private meetings when you were at the house. But I never heard them. I mean, they were really supportive. Yeah, they were very, I think, and I look at my kids now and I think if they were passionate about something, how could you not want to support that? Yeah, you have to let them do what they want to do and make sure that they're enjoying as much of it as possible. I think that's all we can do, isn't it, really? Your kids are tiny still. They're pretty little. They're what, four?

38:12Four and six. Four and six. So you don't have to worry too much about the career path just yet. No. But if they said, oh, dad, I want to be an actor, how would that go down? I just don't think it's going to happen. I don't think they have the chops. You can see already. My son, who's six, was in Shrek the musical at his school. He did a musical theater after school. What is it called? Like an enrichment program. And I thought he was going to like it. And he chose it because he knows that I do theater. And I don't think he liked it very much. And then it got to the point where he needed to do the show.

38:48And he was really nervous and he was really having a hard time like working up his courage to do it. And I was like, you're going to be great. You know this. And you have just a few lines and it's going to be great. And I was like, what are you so nervous about? I was like, I'm just really scared to perform in front of all those people. And I was like, well, how many people do you think it's going to be? And he's like, well, I saw you do Shakespeare in the Park at the Deliquette Theater, 2 ,000 seats. and I said oh I basically said oh honey you have to work up to that I was like it's gonna be like two rows of let's humble you parents yeah we're you're gonna be fine you're gonna be fine brilliant do you think do they get what you do do they yeah I think I've wanted them to get it because it's a very strange profession and I know the the thing that we're still negotiating around is like people recognizing me outside um that part i'm like i'm not fully sure how to explain that um i did tell them that i was on a show they know about modern family they know they don't they've never seen it but they know what it is and i think some of their kids at school their parents have said oh beckett's dad was on modern family so they told beckett your dad was on modern family right so he tells me i was like yes i know i'm aware but uh they They have come to the theater.

40:06Like the theater is something I really want them to be exposed to because I just feel like the community is so lovely. And I want them to be fans of theater. And they are. So they have come to the theater with me. When I was doing Jesus Christ Superstar, I had so much time backstage. They got to watch me put my makeup on. And they watched the show on the monitor. And then I'd leave them with Courtney, who was a swing on Jesus Christ Superstar. She sat in my dressing room with them and then gave them a tour of the theater while I went on stage and did my number. and then uh so like they got to experience sort of like what it is that i do and so they have a point of reference when i go away specifically at night to do theater that that's what i have to go do um and i've taken them to see shows and you know they they do get it yeah um they haven't been on a set yet which will be another interesting thing it's interesting when you merge the world of being a parent and work i find obviously being a parent is ultimately humbling all the time if you were to get any sort of praise or ahead of yourself at work kids will knock that shit out of you yeah immediately i remember like when my kids were your kids ages i'd had this day where i'd done this big like interview of cold play and i was really chuffed with myself and i came back with a spring in my step and i was putting my son in the bath and he just shit onto the bathroom floor and i was like oh no i'm just a human i'm just a human clearing up human shit from the floor that's right yeah they just humble you they do and i appreciate that though i really do i love it i do love it um i and i love like being around like i've been around celebrities with my kids and just they're they're just disinterest on it we were around um Jimmy Kimmel, who wrote this, he's a, you know, TV presenter, as you say, in the US.

41:58And he wrote a really great book called The Very Silly Goose, or The Very Serious Goose, rather. And it's one of Beckett's favorite books. And so I was like, Beckett, that man over there wrote The Very Serious Goose. And he was like, oh, interesting. And so I introduced them. And I was like, do you want to tell Jimmy something? He's like, oh, I like your book. And then he was just like, you know. and jimmy's like wow that is they don't care they don't care they don't give a shit yeah they don't give a shit i love it are you the sort of dad that you thought you were going to be i think so i think so i think i'm less strict than i thought i was going to be i definitely i'm more soft than i thought i was going to be i thought i'd be a little bit more strict and um rigid and i you know structured right they break my heart in the easiest ways and i'm just i just crumble yeah and i'm trying not to justin's really good about like you know being a little bit more stern thank god thank god yeah oh my god because i am way too weak yeah but i think i am i think i am the type of dad that i thought i was gonna be you know it's interesting with modern family people always ask me this like did it give me practice for being a dad and aubrey who played my daughter for most of the the run um she was very young when i met her she was basically my my younger son's age and um that's so crazy to think about yeah but you know i i look at how i interact with my son and that's sort of how aubrey and i interacted with you know i wanted to i wanted her to like me i wanted her to feel safe with me and i want her to have fun with me um so i just i played with her like i i imagined at that point a dad would play with their kid uh and i was just hopefully a fun person to be around and we have a great relationship now and so it's like i think like okay that was the right thing yeah you know because there is that weird thing with kids and actors especially kids that young like how much are you meant to interact with them you know it is a job at the same time and like they should be staying focused and learning their lines but it's also their kids and like I don't want to I don't want to make the situation feel too scary so that she's not able to perform within that so it's a weird balance and um you're doing a bit of practice parenting for sure yeah but for sure I think it did help me figure out like how to just be around kids that age yeah and how do you find the juggle because you know you and your husband both have busy lives yeah and unusual an unusual job and then juggling small kids in the mix yeah it's not easy it's not i mean our my in-laws live really close that's great that's huge um i either i don't know i i find that i've asked this with a lot to a lot of people who spend time away from their kids um for stretches of time like how do you do it how does it how do you reconcile that with yourself and i've gotten lots of different sort of feedback and the feedback that I hear pretty consistently is that it's so important for your kids to see you do something that you're passionate about.

45:11And sometimes that means doing something that takes you away from them, but it's something that brings you joy. And it's important for your kids to see you prioritizing your joy because you want them to prioritize theirs. Yes. And I think that's really wise stage advice. And I think, you know, the thing that you hear that you're probably feeling more guilt than they're even feeling. You're feeling worse than they are. Yeah, totally. I think also very true. The guilt is it does nothing, but we all feel it. But you're so right. I think if your kids see you, well, they just want you to be happy, whether they know that or not.

45:53They don't want grumpy, stressed out parents. And we, of course, we all are at some point, but I think the more that we can show them, it's okay to do things that make you feel good and put yourself first sometimes, which is bloody hard to showcase. But, you know, we give it a go. My son was asking, my son, my older son Beckett was asking why I had to come do True in London. I was like, well, people here want to see me do it. And I, you know, you got to see, he saw it, he saw it in New York. He was pretty too young to see this. He was born out of his gourd. but uh you know i was like you saw what it was like people want to see me do that here and he's like okay i get it like yeah and i love it and i love doing it yeah yeah and i love doing it yeah that's a harder one to say because you're like i always find that really hard like because i want because i want to do it you know i'll sometimes give the martyr answer to my kids like well we need to we've got bills to pay him that always yeah i do say that too i was like well that's how i yeah put food on our table exactly but also i love it yeah i love it and it's okay to say it But it feels so there's an awkwardness.

46:54We always say, well, what are some of the things that you like to do? Like that, that take you away from us. Like, you know, when you are at soccer practice or karate, granted we're driving him to these places. We're not far away, but like, you know, it's, it's, uh, you know, he gets it. So it's like these, we all do things that we want to do that make us happy. Exactly.

47:37Exactly.

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49:05M-I-D-I dot com. Insurance coverage varies. Check with your plan for coverage. Hi, everyone. It's Katie Couric. And on my podcast, Next Question, we love stories about how women are taking control of their lives. They are increasingly leading financial decisions in their households. Yet many say they don't feel fully prepared for the long-term financial choices ahead. Real confidence comes from knowing your financial future is protected whatever happens. Pacific Life has helped generations protect what matters today and prepare for tomorrow with life insurance and lifetime income solutions. It's a promise Pacific Life has kept for nearly 160 years so its customers can keep theirs.

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50:11Hey, I loved snooping around your house via Architectural Digest. Oh my God, the great room. I know. What a room. I know. I loved it. Yeah. It's the dream house. Do you love hosting in that room? I do. I do. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. We're always hosting. I just threw Justin a 41st birthday party. Oh, nice. Are you a good cook? Because you do. Your podcast is all based around food, but you're not cooking. I'm not cooking it. It was pitched to me when Sony pitched me some podcast ideas. They wanted to do something in the culinary world because I love the culinary world. I've hosted the Jane's Beard Awards a few times, which is like the Oscars for the culinary world in the States.

50:54And, um, and I have a cookbook that I wrote. And, uh, so they said, well, we would like to do something in the culinary space. And so the, there was a few ideas pitched to me and one of them was me cooking with people. And, uh, and I thought, well, that just sounds like a lot of work. That just sounds like way too much cooking every week with someone and call the conversation. Oh no, I can't do two things at once. God, no, no, no, No, no. And like, do I have to use my own kitchen? Like, I just, no. The concept we ended up going with was me taking people out to restaurants and having a conversation over a meal at a restaurant, which is great.

51:29So good. Someone else do it for us. Oh, my God. I've loved so many of them. The Dr. Jill Biden one was fascinating. Yes, yes. That's a very good one. I'm very proud of that one. Yeah. Yeah, she was wonderful. That conversation was nuts. I couldn't believe she was so relaxed with you. You got so much out of her. I did. I had met her before briefly. I don't know her well. I don't really know her at all, but I met her briefly. But I was sort of given a heads up that she is an open book. Oh, without a doubt. And so I was brave and I asked some questions that I was scared to ask specifically about, you know, her husband's bad debate performance that sort of brought him down.

52:12and she was very candid with all of her experience with it. Yeah. Yeah, no, she was great. That was an amazing chat. I couldn't believe she was telling you about how when the Trump administration were coming in, they were going to bin all of her stuff. They were like, you've got to buy it back or we're going to put it in a skip, basically. Isn't that fascinating? My jaw was on the floor hearing her admit to it. I can't believe that she's just saying this out loud. Yeah, and just also her experience with the demolition of the East Wing, you know? And, you know, being kind of like one of the last people to really embody that space.

52:51And she's sort of, you know, her account of it is the most recent. And I think that's really fascinating. That's a part of our history that's just gone. Yeah, it's wild. What a chat. And also a privilege to sit. And that's why I love doing this job is each week, you know, I often get to the end of a week and think, oh my God, what a joy that I got to sit with people from all these different backgrounds, these different life experiences and stories and just ask them questions and sit and listen to stories. There's something about storytelling, which is, I think, unmatched. I just love it. But can I ask you a question because you're better at this than I am?

53:28I don't know about that. Well, what do you do? Because I'm sure everyone is not great. What do you do when people are not forthcoming or they provide like one word answers and like they're just like, next question, please? Horrendous. Because I'm still working out how to work around that. Okay. So the honest answer is in this space, it is devastating because this is long form chatting. Yes. Back when I did radio for years and years, you would get the odd, you know, musicians aren't always very forthcoming with storytelling because that's not what they're there for. They're music makers. They're in small studios working on their own for hours.

54:06And you knew the bands or artists that would come in and they didn't really want to talk. So you think, let's just keep this short and brief and make it about the music. Fine. In this space, it doesn't work. I've only had it once. Really? Where the person I was interviewing was almost acting as if we were in an eight-minute promo setting. Got it. And I was scrambling. Inside, I was full panic. Full panic. You know, I always go and do my research. I've got enough avenues to go down. I had done all avenues in about five minutes. I was shitting myself. So I ended up talking about all sorts of random shit.

54:43And then I binned the podcast. It didn't see the light of day. I just thought, I don't want people to hear me sounding desperate. Thank you very much. But you made it through an hour? Not nowhere near. I mean, half an hour. And I think I then felt so drained. Do you remember how you wrapped it up? No, because I have filed it in bin in my brain. I've never to be thought about again. It's just, it's the worst. The worst. The worst, the worst. It's awful. It's hard. Yeah, I've had a few where it's been hard. It feels eggy and clunky and clumsy. Yeah. I don't like that. I would just say don't turn up to the, just don't come on the podcast.

55:23Just say, I can't be bothered. I don't want to do it. I know, I know. That's okay. No one wants it. For them or me. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Certainly not the listener. No. No, we're doing no one any favors. It's a waste of everyone's time. Everyone's time. um the the lovely part of you getting to sit and have a chat in the setting that you've chosen which are lovely restaurants is then getting to sample gorgeous food what is your dream meal what's your cuisine of choice oh god i mean i i'm a big fan of mexican food indian food thai food i like big flavor um oh god i mean i've gotten to eat so much great food on this podcast and the great thing about doing is i i get to take it like if i'm working in new york i do podcast episodes in new york i'm doing some here while i'm in london so i get to go all over the place and try all these incredible restaurants um i just did uh an episode of i always get the two confused there's sunday brunch and saturday kitchen okay sunday brunch is the one where you sit there for hours okay i've done both but i had to drink yes yeah yeah so i was on sunday brunch and there was a these guys um i wish i can remember the name of their restaurant um it's so good uh anyway the they they cooked for us and i was like well that's where i'm doing an episode of my podcast yes i love that absolutely so we'll do some episodes whilst you're over here yeah amazing yeah yeah i love that and what do you do i always wonder this when i go and watch a show in the theater do you eat after the show or before it's a great question actually i have not figured this out yet no i tried to eat before something light i don't like to eat heavy after the show no gross i'd rather go to bed hungry and then have just like a really good breakfast the next day i hate going to bed full i do too although last time i was i did have two bags of like popcorn oh popcorn nothing that's it yeah that's just air yeah i was i watched um i watched to wind down obsession that horror film.

57:29Oh, no. I had the worst nightmares last night. Why did you watch that before bed? I don't know. I can only watch utter shit before bed. So Below Deck is my flavor of choice. Okay, noted. No, that's probably... It's heavenly. Yeah. If you need to wind down, like all thoughts dissipate and you're in a lovely country somewhere. Usually they're cruising around Croatia at the moment, if you must know. And it's just, there's, you know, romance is going on and arguments and awful people who come on to charter the boats. Awful. The worst people ever. Right. It's the best TV. If you want to wind down. Okay.

58:06I prescribe you not obsession. No. I had the worst nightmares. Awful. Horrible. Horrible. I can't watch it like that. No. It was very good though. Light popcorn meal and below deck. Exactly. Yeah. And when you go out for dinner do you do all three courses oh god no i mean well i mean it's i mean on my podcast if that's what they want us to try that's what we will try but um you know i also tend to not be able to eat everything and you know we have video as well so sometimes you know and we edit around eating so sometimes it looks like we're just not ever eating um uh which is hilarious people like are they eating the meal we i guarantee you are um and uh but yeah if i'm with by myself I try and eat, you know, I can just do a little bit.

58:54Yeah. Three quarters always feels, especially with a bread basket. Oh God. It's overwhelming. Yeah. I know if I go for dinner with my mom, she is obsessed with dessert. So she's always going to go, no one have a starter. No one's allowed to start. I'm like, okay, we won't have a starter because she wants main and then she wants a pudding. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's how it is. Yeah, yeah. We know how she rolls now. I know. Do you, are tasting menus a big thing here? Oh, that I cannot, I've not got the time for. When you're there for like three hours. No, no. I've done it once and it was midnight and I'm still, why am I eating at midnight?

59:25Yeah. Yeah. They go on and on and on. Justin and I have done a few as a couple, you know, and it's like, it always seems like a good idea, like a nice romantic thing to do. And you're just, you run out of things to talk about. Yeah. You end up talking about the kids and you're like, this is pointless. Why are we talking about the kids? And you're like, how many more of these little dishes are you going to bring out? And like, they start to get sweet and you're like, I think we're near the end. And then like a steak comes out afterwards. You're like, no. The sweet, savory side. I know. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

59:50Before we end things, we ask all of our guests two questions. One of them relates to a Happy Place playlist that we're making. So it's really great music that makes you feel happy and joyful. What would you put on that playlist? Oh, my gosh. Oh. What would I put on that playlist? Okay, what am I enjoying right now? Okay, I really love Ray, Where the Hell is My Husband? Or is it called Where's My Husband? Yeah, it's the best. It's great. Her voice. She's great. I got to see her at the Greek theater in Los Angeles. I was like, I'm obsessed with her. And do you know what? The thing about Ray is - Or Click Clack Symphony is also great.

1:00:26Oh, that's great. Ray has really worked it. She's been around over here for years. I know. Years and years. And she just kind of kept growing momentum. And then she had her moment. And it was so, it still is so deserved. Yeah. She's the best. Yeah, and I love her. And Jesse, to finish, where is your happy place? Ooh, my happy place. I think it's on stage. It is. I love the theater. I love being, I'll admit that. I love the theater. Sometimes it's being in the audience and sometimes it's being on the stage, but I love being in that shared space that is just for those people in that moment. Hopefully everyone's cell phones are off.

1:01:06We're just enjoying this thing that's happening that is only going to happen in that room at that time and then it's gone and I I really find so much peace and love and comfort and being in the theater yeah well I can't wait to come and see your play I can't wait for you to see it I'm so excited I can't so up my street I am there yay Jesse thank you so much and good luck with the rest of the run of your show thank you thank you oh I love Jesse I want to be his best friend. I really, really do. And I'm going to go and watch the play. And I'm so excited. And also, may I add that Jesse is the best sport because I asked him to do the most ludicrous video for Instagram, which you might need to go and see, which he said yes to.

1:01:58And it involves me. I mean, basically, I watched this video back and I was mortified because I sort of climb up his body like a sloth. That's all I'm saying. It's, you need to see it to believe it. But thank you, Jessie, for not only being so lovely and friendly and gorgeous in that chat, but also a jolly good sport. You can see Jessie performing as Truman Capote in True until the 14th of November, 2026 at the Menier Chocolate Factory in London. A huge thank you again to Jessie and to you gorgeous lot for listening thank you

1:03:01Hi, everyone. It's Katie Couric. And on my podcast, Next Question, we love stories about how women are taking control of their lives. They are increasingly leading financial decisions in their households, yet many say they don't feel fully prepared for the long-term financial choices ahead. Real confidence comes from knowing your financial future is protected whatever happens. Pacific Life has helped generations protect what matters today and prepare for tomorrow with life insurance and lifetime income solutions. It's a promise Pacific Life has kept for nearly 160 years so its customers can keep theirs.

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